July 19, 2016 Show with David C. Innes on “Faith & Politics: When Christ’s Church Radically Divides Over Candidates (or Abstains From Voting)”

from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

Earth, listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 19th day of July 2016 and I thank you for your patience those of you listening who are wondering why we did not begin at four o 'clock sharp.

That is still a mystery to me. We were having a problem connecting with the main radio network in Texas but we eventually did connect.

You may have even heard me saying things in frustration before I even knew that we were on the air and being recorded but anyway glad that vulgarity is no longer a typical habit of mine but thank you for being patient with us and sticking around until we made contact and then have begun broadcasting today and I am looking forward again to our interview with David Innes.

David Innes who we have interviewed on the past on Iron Sharpens Iron is going to discuss today faith and politics when

Christ's Church radically divides over candidates or abstains from voting and David Innes is the chair of the program in politics philosophy and economics and associate professor of politics at the

King's College in New York City. He is the author or the co -author I should say of the book

Left Right and Christ Evangelical Faith and Politics and he's got a new book coming out very shortly

God willing at the same time that Left Right and Christ is being re -released so it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Dr.

David Innes. It's a pleasure to be here. Yes and the pleasure is all ours and let me on air introduce you to my co -host

Reverend Buzz Taylor. And we meet once again. Good to see you as it were.

And unfortunately for me the Presbyterians once again are outnumbering the Reformed Baptists here.

Get used to it. Well according to my scheme of post -millennialism that's not gonna happen but anyway before I even go into our subject at hand

Dr. Innes please let our listeners know something about the

King's College in New York City for those especially for those of our listeners who did not have the privilege of hearing you last time or anybody else from the

King's College that I've interviewed in the past. Let our listeners know about the King's College. Well the

King's College is a Christian liberal arts college in Lower Manhattan. It has a

PP &E core politics philosophy and economics core of 20 courses that all students have to take and then it has a few majors politics philosophy and economics media culture and the arts business and finance and these are all perfectly suited to be studied in New York City with the city as our larger campus.

So it's we have a wonderful group of students and faculty and it's my joy to work there and serve the

Lord there. Yes and I am looking forward to my interview with Greg Thornberry the current president.

We had scheduled an interview in the past and something came up on my end where I had to postpone it so we're still working on getting him rescheduled and I'm looking forward to that especially since I've known his father

John Thornberry a Reformed Baptist Church historian.

I've known him since probably 1990 and has been a dear friend of mine and has written a number of books that I have interviewed him on so I'm looking forward to interviewing his son

Greg and this is obviously a very timely subject that we are discussing.

It would be timely no matter when we addressed it in reality but the fact that we are entering into the presidential race head -on between the

Republican candidate Donald Trump and the Democratic Party candidate Hillary Clinton and last night began the

Republican National Convention in Ohio and before we get in any further into the divide amongst

Christians over this political race what were your thoughts on what occurred last night in regard to the speeches and so on?

Well Donald Trump is running an anti -establishment campaign that's obvious to everyone and what is interesting is that on Morning Joe that morning they were saying well you don't really have any big -name speakers big senators and governors

I guess that's who you would normally have they just had ordinary people well some not -so -ordinary and I thought it was very powerful we had

Willie Robertson speak first off he's very popular and but they had the theme for the evening was making

America safe again and I didn't quite know what to expect I knew there was a general that was going to speak and Melania but the people who lost children to to illegal aliens murdered by illegal aliens that was very powerful the

Hispanic woman who lost her son her only son the african -american man who lost his son

I think his name is Jameel shot by a illegal alien from Mexico who had been deported came back was deported this guy was guilty of a number of things you'd think they would put him in jail if he keeps coming back over the border and he shot the boy because he was black it was it was heartrending to hear this and then pointing out that his the politicians were all behind him until they discovered that the assailant was an illegal alien then they all scampered hmm that was very powerful and then the mother of Sean Smith who was killed in the

Benghazi attack one of those four heroes she was helped onto the stage by someone she was frail and speaking from the heart of a mother who lost her son saying how

Hillary Clinton lied to her and then called her a liar and oh again it was very powerful and these are these are these are ordinary people so that was that was

I thought well done of course the Democrats at the Democratic Convention you will have similar people telling similarly genuinely heartrending stories of shootings in school losing their children it's a it's a hard world to be living in that there's no shortage of suffering to go around but but that having been said it was it was a touching life night and it brought some realities home in a very personal way yes and so what did you actually think of what

Donald Trump had to say and his wife Melania oh he didn't really say anything he introduced his wife his walk -on was very impressive with the light something right speech

I thought was I thought was a very good speech I mean again like the others she is not accustomed to addressing large crowds at a convent giving speeches to large crowds that's not easy to do it easy to get rattled you can see that the two

Benghazi special ops guys you can see how difficult it was they're nervous on stage but she held herself well she delivered it well

English is not her first language although she speaks a number of languages and she told her immigrant story to remind her that there are immigrants in this country from from all over the world

Canada for example I would point out as one myself she is from Slovenia and I thought it was a very well delivered speech and it was only the next day

I learned that some of the lines came from were taken it seems obvious to anyone who looks at it taken from somebody else's speech and then then you learn that there's somebody else's

Michelle Obama and you just you jaw drop so that story today instead of what a wonderful speech she made and it was a wonderful speech this story sadly is who is responsible for this and why isn't so -and -so being fired whoever it is so a political campaign is an extremely complex and delicate things that really need a lot of professionals to pull it off and I think what you're seeing in Donald Trump's campaign is the the kind of stinginess the the inexperience on the one hand and the stinginess and making up for it on the other hand are showing themselves now

I'm I may have missed something that you said because I was looking at the monitor to make sure that we were still back on the air but did you say that Melania's speech was plagiarized from Michelle Obama oh yeah the on the news this morning they were playing clips side -by -side of Michelle Obama's speech from the 2008 convention and Melania's speech from last night and you know

I'm a college professor I know what plagiarism looks like or sounds like the campaigners that all other common words is there's no there's no issue here well

I know that I mean if I passed off a tale of two cities as my own novel would it be a defense to say well all these words are common words they're all they're all in the dictionary have access to that well no it's the order of the words for the grouping of them well how identical was it see

I didn't hear the news this morning because I've been busily attending to other vital matters in my life so I didn't even hear the news this morning but well how if I saw this correspondence in a student's term paper

I would fail the paper Wow I'd fail the papers particularly when they're come from another perspective first lady's yeah speech so it's not if you know this phrase can be found here on the internet and that phrase can be found over there in that column all the same first lady's convention speech or contenders wife speech so it doesn't look good but so she she was she was ill -served by someone and that has become the story it cannot be her fault and even if she did even if she did it herself somebody in the campaign should have caught it yeah you can't do this so so either way it is the fault of somebody in the campaign but you know that's what happens when you're an outsider and you don't have a team of people you're bringing with you from a governor's office or or a life in politics

I mean there's a downside to that but this is the downside to being a complete outsider so there you go well let me quickly announce our email address for those of you listening who would like to join us on the air with a question it could be in regard to anything in the realm of Christianity and politics doesn't necessarily have to be specifically on a thing that we are discussing at the time it can be just under the general umbrella of Christian and politics and our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com CHR is a

RN Z and a gmail .com and please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

USA now when you were saying stinginess are you talking about the fact that they don't seem to be spending the time and money on the necessary resources and teamwork to make sure things like that don't happen and like Melania duplicating a speech or what did you mean by that stinginess

I mean that Trump has a small fraction of the paid staff that Hillary Clinton has or that anyone in his position at this point have he doesn't have the field offices he doesn't have the the the filled -out national staff and and is that through inexperience or is that through I just don't want to spend any more money on this than I have to I mean

I appreciate thrift you're talking to the thrift captain right here but there is such a thing as a false economy and there's an old

Scottish I underscore Scottish phrase don't don't sink the ship for a penny of tar okay let's see we have a listener we have pastor

Bruce in Farmingville Long Island he asks given the overtly biblically based platform the

National Republican Committee just approved in Cleveland Ohio isn't it time to support

Donald Trump as the standard -bearer for the party if not what is the standard for a nominee that has such a godly mission statement guiding his party also if Donald Trump offers a media

I'm sorry if Donald Trump offers a mea culpa in his acceptance speech for prior foolishness would that make him acceptable okay

I don't foresee and I don't think anyone foresees Donald Trump issuing the first mea culpa so that aside the first part of the question the what is the relationship between a party platform and what happens over the next four years is the question the party has come up with what is it what

I gather is a good party platform I've heard snippets from it I didn't read the whole 230 pages that's no way to spend your summer but the but Donald Trump is an anti -establishment guy he does what he wants so what what he does is not necessarily what the party platform says the party stands for and I'm not saying he won't

I'm just saying he doesn't have to he can do whatever he thinks is wise at the time no president is bound by a party platform in fact

I rarely hear a party platform mentioned during the course of a presidency things change the president has his own mind or her own mind

Hillary the the Democrats next week will come up with a party platform that will look like it was written by Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders endorsed her the other day on the basis of her being

Bernie Sanders she says vote for this woman because she believes and they just went through everything that he'd been campaigning on for the last six months and she's nodding the whole way through so whether she's nodding at what

Bernie says or whether the platform says Vladimir Vladimir Lenin was a great guy we believe everything he said and that's our platform doesn't have to do any of that and I wouldn't be surprised if she departed in a number of ways so the platform having a godly platform and arguably godly platform is better than the opposite but so so so whether or not

Christians get on board with the Trump candidacy is is a largely separate question

I think I think the platform the platform given that Trump in no doubt the

Trump influence on the platform I think that's that's that's one reason that one might follow along and take a chance with Trump but but there are other reasons for and there are reasons against and we can get into that when you want so I hope that's helpful yeah we also have pastor mark in Merrick Long Island New York who asked after picking governor

Pence for his vice president and obviously surrounding himself with some conservative influences

Carson Walker etc do you think that more Christians would be inclined to vote for Trump or will that not make a also also

I want your thoughts on the lesser or two evils philosophy yeah there's a lot there let me well first of all well what should we take the lesser to evils philosophy or the let's go to the

Christians and and and whether or not to support from there this is a very divided election we thought the

Romney election was dividing Christians I had I had good godly thoughtful friends saying how can you vote for a

Mormon how can you put a Mormon in the White House to which one might say well you know I wish

I wish it was someone else but how can you in effect help

Barack Obama be reelected yes I've had what you really meant to say was the Romney non -election that's a

Romney election yeah I Romney maybe

I meant nomination right right right right yeah the Romney nomination so that was a tough question for the

Christian community the John McCain I don't think raised the questions even though he he didn't care much for Christianity I don't think he might have said that clearly it was not the driving influence in his life whereas Romney anyway but but now it's even worse it's

Christians are really divided over this man this man who doesn't think he needs to repent of anything he'll if he needs

God's forgiveness he'll let God know the sort of thing but so there there are many reasons not to vote for Donald Trump and and they've been stated quite eloquently eloquently on the internet and on publications like first things and National Review and so forth his narcissism his materialism his grab grab grab philosophy of life and he's going to make

America great by bringing us into that grabbing the whole country's going to grab and the Americans could be great again he said this after his

Nevada win in the primaries said exactly that right his his three marriages his you know you go down the list the way he speaks of people in public the

Democrats just ran a commercial today where it's got little kids with their with their precious faces looking at the television there's

Donald Trump saying these very crude things and then contrast that with Hillary at her best and so you know there there are strong arguments to say evangelicals need to send a message to Washington to the parties and sit out this election and say when you put up a candidate who a candidate not people around him but a candidate who takes our concerns seriously we will step in again there are but there are also arguments good arguments for supporting the guy as well as I think you mentioned that administration is not just the president he's obviously a big part of it but there's the people around the president he seems to be there seems to be good people around him there's the effect the president has on the

Supreme Court Hillary Clinton will appoint leftist radicals who care nothing about the

Constitution and everything about the cutting edge of Enlightenment thought Enlightenment thought whereas Donald Trump probably will appoint a conservative

Constitution respecting jurist so that there's the effect on the

Supreme Court and that has effect particularly at this time at the divided court for one two generations to come there's the effect on Congress having a conservative or more or less conservative more conservative than the other party people in Congress with a president corresponding president the

White House is a whole lot better than divided government so far particularly when you when

Barack Obama has set the precedent of legislating from the executive branch saying well if Congress won't go along with me

I'll just do it on my own so there's the effect on that there's the effect on on on peace in the streets terrorism who

Trump seems to be somebody who will be more effective against the terrorist threat whether he succeeds or not is another matter but but he he should be more effective so there's all these considerations so it would it reason

I could it's reasonable to think that a Christian person would vote for Donald Trump because he is more promising on these fronts and he is not a criminal he is not a traitor the other candidate is a proven criminal a demonstrated traitor if I may say that and and so forth so the temptation particularly in this election it was through the last election but also in this election for Christians to judge each other how could you possibly how could you possibly support this man how could you possibly not support this man given the alternative and they turn me on each other and and treat each other as though they're you know utterly compromised

Christians and I don't know what you will say to your Lord and Judgment Day we have to resist that there there there are credible arguments on both sides of this and these matters are difficult to figure out we all know this is the perplexing election so and I am

I am among the perplexed it's not clear to me and I get paid to think about these things so yes and it's what what makes it obviously the whole thing more of a difficult decision to make is that most politicians either straight out lie or exaggerate and Donald Trump you would think that if he is elected if he was being truthful about everything he says he would be ushering in the

Millennium really he I mean that the promises that he makes but even

I used to scratch my head even listening to Ted Cruz and of course these are kinds of promises that nearly every politician makes but Ted Cruz would repeatedly promise that he was going to bring an end to ISIS and Donald Trump is obviously saying that too how could you make a promise like that you can't but what are we to do with going back to the lesser of two evils

I mean do Christians who say that to violate your conscience by choosing either evil is a sin do they have a legitimate case there and say that if we really think that both candidates are evil that's voting for either of them would be indeed sin just because we want to have a pragmatic approach to seeing somebody elected that we favor over the other in some fashion

I mean are we not still you know are we not still sinning by by voting for somebody that we are knowingly pulling a lever for an evil person yeah it is a persuasive argument

I think only on the surface the it's kind of like and and anyone who's been following this election will sympathize with this analogy you're in a plane or a car and it's out of control and it's going to crash and what do you do you say well

I don't accept the situation I'm just gonna cross my legs and read the newspaper

I don't want to get involved you're involved right so someone says brace for impact well who wants impact right but you can you can this impact could be better or worse so you brace for impact you don't just you know carry on as if as if you're somehow not involved and a lot of us are looking at this election well

I and I say a lot of us because both candidates have about a 60 % unfavorability rate rating this has never happened before this is a an unfavorability contest so but one of them is going to be president if all things being equal one of them will be president so which one is it going to be are you going to contribute help contribute to this one or that one and and at that point you start saying well this one is terrible but that one is worse and you make up your own mind which this one and that one are so also this this well the lesser of two evils is still an evil what a privilege look at we've we've been looking at France in the news we've been looking at Turkey in the news and and and and maybe you've noticed

Nigeria Jonathan good luck was was turfed out the Christian president

I think there was corruption there what a surprise and and then the

Muslim president came and I don't know anything about him but this is this is the world most people live in and historically virtually everyone has lived in this kind of world what a privilege that we've been living in a country where we can say

I'm not voting for the lesser of two evils because they're both evil well hello that's what most people have always had to choose between evil a more evil and less evil candidate and isn't it great to be able to have a popular influence be part of a popular influence in in one or the other and thus have some sort of popular restraining effect on one or the other so and and and in America's been a largely

Christian country but it's less and less a Christian country we've all noticed this so this may be the future people saying well

I'm gonna sit this one out because the voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for an evil thinking that maybe next time there won't be evil they may look two or three elections down the road and go well

I thought things were bad in 2016 I don't think things are going to change it's been four elections now this may be what we're looking at for the for the future so Christians what are we going to do and there is a there's an argument for as a block pulling back and saying if you want our the support of our block you put up a more godly or at least a more moral candidate but Chris what do you think the chance is of evangelical them acting as a block okay

I mean I'd be all for that and I'm actually on record saying that in an interview but as I that would be nice but is it is it going to happen is it sort of like you know five people pulling back or even 50 ,000 people pulling back and saying let's all do this this will work knowing full well that most people are going to do this or that and not what they're doing so it may come down to I have

I a citizen a Christian citizen but a citizen have this voting responsibility and I can advance this candidate or that candidate

I can I can limit the evil in this way or I can advance it's kind of what maybe it's like the like abortion voting in Congress you voted for a bill that supported abortion yeah

I did but but it limited abortion it's a step yeah people in the in the in the anti -abortion the pro -life world understand how incremental voting incremental policy advances are actually help people as opposed to well this is the righteous position and I'm never voting for anything except this entirely righteous position and what you're left with is your feeling of righteousness and babies are dying so perhaps it's like that but I'm not saying that but I've got it all figured out

I'm perhaps helping people in your audience figure it out we have to go a break right we approach this wreck we have to get a break right now if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com CHR is a RN Z and at gmail .com

don't go away we're going to be right back with David Ennis thriving financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization we help

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Harvey Cedars where Christ finds people and changes lives. Welcome back this is

Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is Dr. David Innes who is on the faculty of the

King's College in New York City and we are discussing faith in and politics before we return to that discussion one of our sponsors has an event that they want to invite you to the

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that's fellowshipconferencenewengland .com and once again if you have any questions for our guest

Dr. David Innes our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

we have Bracey in Dix Hills Long Island New York who says you are on record for exhorting

Christians to stay out of the elections during this election cycle according to the

Guardian so I want to know are you concerned that your opinion as a Christian politics professor will influence many

Christians to take a course of action i .e. do not vote that has the least impact on society against the forces of evil well yeah that was the interview

I was referring to earlier and when I say their arguments on both sides that in that forum

I was expressing that argument and but you know as the election proceeds

I we think things through and become more sure of a position or or less sure you know political science is not like medical science and even medical science is somewhat of an art it is the human biology conquers our our biological world physics conquers brings under control our physical world political science boasts of being able to do that well this is a science like any natural science we can just bring bring our political and moral world under control make it predictable and it's and that that's a boast a political scientist is not a natural scientist and for that reason at the

King's College we refer to the Department of Politics I'm professor of politics not political science because we understand that the human things can't be entirely predicted or controlled and if they could it would be something like totalitarianism and it wouldn't be a good thing so as I go through this election

I am trying to figure things out and and try to figure out how a

Christian ought to respond to these things and I'm finding it's very complicated there's the there's the principal stand there's the prudent stand so what

I'm sharing with you today is where my thinking is right now so you know

I was I was I was of one position Donald Trump he cannot be elected president he's crude he's self -centered he he has little rookie he doesn't have enough regard for the rule of law what he said about about for example torture oh they'll they the the military they'll do what

I say and so forth you remember that more yeah and this is just frightening talking about about prosecuting the press if they don't give him good coverage and then and then you know you watch 13 hours in the movie about Benghazi and those brave men who died and then you think of Hillary Clinton's role in that you say this woman can't be president really touched me and and then the whole email scandal and and what happened with FBI director

James Comey and his presentation and you think this woman can't be president and and you know what's the alternative the alternative to Donald Trump and then you start weighing okay well which one is better than the other and what is the effect of just sitting out now of course sitting out in a swing state is not the same as sweating swinging out in you know like Wyoming or or Alabama or Vermont for that matter so the effect of one sitting out is different in different states but but that's that's that's what

I mean when I say you you you you may come to a conclusion as to what the right thing is but it's vastly complicated and to judge one's fellow believers for not coming to the same practical conclusion as you do though you may agree on all the principles is really oversimplifying the situation so it may be like like I don't know

Christian schooling do I dare mention that this person chooses this form of schooling because of their situation and and the needs of their children and so forth and this one chooses that alternative because of their situation which is our situation is very complicated and it's tempting to judge one another and maybe that's justified

I don't know but but this is even more complicated this is very complicated as I mentioned the

Supreme Court Congress the role of the administration the alternative

Hillary Clinton and how you weigh these these factors about Donald Trump there are a lot of people who are saying that the public

Trump is not the real Trump no well then why is the public Trump there on the other hand these people speak well of him

Christian people obviously Mike Pence is supporting him okay

Mike Pence was very critical of him and had to be comforted by his friends I am told when it looked like Trump was going to get the nomination and now he's going to be his vice president and you have

Paul Ryan who is a Christian man of sound conservative principles and he is making tactical judgments and some people accuse him of selling out but he's more likely thinking

I am I am not sitting in my basement reading the internet

I have practical responsibilities I am the Speaker of the House and how am

I going to maximize the good for the American people so he's making his judgment so and I don't claim to have everything figured out but I'm sharing with you today the complexity as I see it at this point the complexity may look different in four weeks but at this point this is the complexity as I see it and that is politics

I teach my students the politics is not simple politics is not your

Messiah politics is it's complicated and it's full of trade -offs and and tensions your attention is when you have two equally good things that are incompatible with one another they pull you in different directions and you can't just choose one or the other that's what makes it a tension at Paul to political life is full of those things and and when you think it's all simple you're deceiving yourself and others because that's the way it is in a fallen world so and I try to because young people get caught up in political passions and causes and so forth and I try to say it's not that simple be wise be wise this is what you tell young passionate people be wise the world is more competent this is what you see in the book of Proverbs the world is complicated do not answer a fool in his folly and then two verses later or something it says in other words it depends on the context it requires wisdom so what is wisdom in this election for Christians for me to tell you wisdom is in this election with all its baffling perplexity for me to say wisdom is this

I think would be would be presumptuous and oversimplifying that's why

I'm trying to show arguments on both sides and leave it for your audience to figure out well

I want to give our listeners a bit of a surprise today I'm interviewing one of the candidates for President of the

United States and I'm gonna give you a couple of hints one of the names one of his names begins with a and another hint to this would be the word castle and I want to let you have a few seconds to try to figure that out no it's not

Donald Trump who used to own Trump Castle it is Darrell Castle who is the

Constitution Party candidate I'm interviewing him on August 2nd and then the following day on August 3rd

I'm interviewing Tom Hoefling who is the America's Party candidate for president and obviously most of the citizens of this country probably never heard of either of them but but I'm interviewing them because just to hear what candidates for the presidency that the media is going to be ignoring completely have to say why they are even running knowing that it is certain barring some kind of modern -day miracle that that parallels the parting of the

Red Sea how they would possibly be elected president and what they think is missing in the

Republican Party and its candidate that would compel them to run both of these candidates are conservative claim to be

Christian have biblical morality as a part of the very makeup of their fabric of life and so on so you might want to mark your calendars down for those two dates

August 2nd and August 3rd if you'd like to ask them questions and Darrell Castle is probably the more well -known of the two do you know anything about either of these candidates dr.

Ennis no I I I don't know anything about the which is the

America's Party I've never heard of that okay well that does not cross my radar okay well as they obviously just they can independent conservative party that this

Christian individual is running under but the Darrell Castle I'm assuming you may have heard of Darrell I I looked him up on his website a few weeks ago want to know what the

Constitution Party was doing this time around and I think he's over I think he's a lawyer mm -hmm but the only thing that struck me about his his website and you could perhaps ask him about this is he seemed to be giving in his video presentation of himself and his party the sort of presentation you would give in any given election there was no reference to the crisis of our times there was no reference to the chaos that was going on the other parties it was just a standard

Constitution Party presentation and I thought that was awfully tone -deaf yeah so I mean this is the time to be taking advantage of this stuff oh sure the other candidates talk about the perplexity talk about the safe choice that is the

Constitution Party talk about the future when the

GOP collapses the Constitution Party will be something like that not difficult to make up so I would

I would ask him about that it may be that he's just not very politically savvy

I don't know I'm not saying he is or he isn't I'm just knowing I just know what I saw mm -hmm and you know governing governing requires an ability to speak to the people to connect with the people and to move the people to follow you they have to they have you have to show them that you hear them that you have the wisdom that they're looking for how to figure out this dangerous and confusing world which is dangerous and confusing in any given time and and that you're the guy to follow and that requires a rhetorical gift we've seen candidates who just couldn't speak their way out of a paper bag if that makes any sense and you think well that guy would be a great candidate he's got all the right positions but he just can't talk he doesn't know how to connect and so that that is important in not just getting elected but getting things done yeah the

I do know that George Grant who you may be familiar with who I interviewed recently

Presbyterian theologian he knows Darrell Castle personally and thinks the world of him although he doesn't think that Darrell has a chance obviously to win the election and I'm not even saying that that dr.

Grant is voting for him because I don't know if he made that clear either he just happens to know him personally and dr.

Grant was actually one of the key figures involved in founding the

Constitution Party along with Howard Phillips and so on well I mean as you say there's extremely unlikely that that the

Constitution Party candidate will win this 2016 election nonetheless one might vote for them not with respect to any candidate particular but with respect to what the party stands for I cannot bring myself let's say to vote for the

Republican or the Democrats so I can either stay well you wouldn't stay home there's the down ticket to vote for but I just won't vote for the presidential slot or I will

I will register my opinion by voting for the Constitution Party on the basis of what the party stands for maybe that will send a little bit of a signal you know if they double their popular support from 1 % to 2 % maybe that will register on somebody's political radar of the chain no no maybe this is argument there's an argument for that despite the fact that he's not gonna win right if you could be clearer about that because obviously the the folks that I know that have made it very obvious that they're voting for Trump either regrettably either that they're acquiescing to the fact that he is the lesser of two evils or there are some that I know that are really excited about Donald Trump but the the common response to voting for an independent party candidate is you are insane you are wasting your vote you're voting for Hillary Clinton you are voting for abortion to become more rampant in this country you are voting for homosexuality to be entered into more spheres of life than it is even now and you're giving them more power the homosexual rights activists and the feminists and the leftists and you are really opening the gates for illegal aliens to come flooding in here and doing all kinds of atrocious things in regard to not only crime and murder in local areas but nationwide terrorist acts so that's basically what you hear when people say that you may vote just because of your conscience being bothered by voting for either

Trump or obviously Hillary you you're any kind of a indication that you may not vote for Trump is you're almost on the level of being a traitor is what

I'm saying so what would be any what would where would he be any value for somebody voting in your opinion for either a

Daryl Castle or a Tom Hoefling or for nobody well

Wow Chris you just made a very powerful argument for for voting practical rather than voting pure principle

I was what can

I add well I'll try I was surprised let me back up a little I was surprised that Bernie Sanders endorsed

Hillary Clinton I thought this guy isn't even a Democrat yeah he's an independent socialist in in in the

Senate not even a Democrat so wouldn't care whether Democrats win or not the

I thought he would look at Trump and Hillary and say why should I support

Hillary Clinton she's there that the same thing they're both controlled by Wall Street they're both in the 1 % what difference does it make and and I think a lot of his supporters think the same thing but he did so so much for predicting the future but but it does make a difference

I think who gets in into power it makes a difference you're in this way

I'll fill in some of the details your the bathrooms and change rooms for your kids in your public school if they're in public school are now open to like whoever feels he's a girl that day or or in general the what else we talked about these poor people lost their children to illegal aliens the government is run by people who don't know how did they can deal with with American criminals but a criminal born outside the country they just don't know how to deal with that and so your children get killed or maybe there's just a an air of political correctness in the country and people are afraid to say anything about you know a young Arab male and so they see something suspicious in this guy my team's garage going on but they don't want a profile they don't want to be politically incorrect so don't say anything and then that guy and his wife shoot up a workplace and maybe that involves one of your loved ones it makes a difference so there are greater and lesser evils in this world and so my question actually could say listen

I mean I I wouldn't say it I wouldn't say to one of my friends that is your fault you have blood on your hands because you voted for a third -party candidate

I live in New York whether my friend does or does not vote this way or that way

I don't think it's going to make any difference I'm gonna lay that on my friend now if I was in Ohio even then

I love my friends too much to address them in that way and lay that sort of responsibility on them for one vote so people have to be decent

I know decency is in short supply these days in and outside of the church so yeah

I I just made a case for voting for Donald Trump right right that's my question was actually is there value at all in voting for an independent party candidate that is going to be a certain loser but if you could you want me to make the argument voting for an independent party candidate yeah but you have to do that after the break that we have to go to a break right now and if you would like to join us on the air as well our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com that's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

and please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and by the way I forgot to mention this earlier we had a couple of first -time emails from a couple of listeners that would be

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that's linbrookbaptist .org welcome back this is Chris Orrins and if you just tuned us in for the full two hours today we are having as our guest

Dr. David Ennis who's on the faculty at the King's College in New York City we're talking about faith and politics and in a minute we're going to be hearing more about his books left right and Christ evangelical faith and politics which is coming out in a new edition very shortly

God willing and also another book that he has written and we will find out as I said in a moment about that but if you could address any pros or benefits to a

Christian saying I know he's gonna lose but I'm pulling that lever for Darrell Castle or Tom Hoefling or any other conservative

Bible -believing man of principle even when it is going to be a certain loss barring a modern -day miracle that parallels the parting of the

Red Sea if you could why on earth would somebody do that and in essence as people very often say that means that they're just pulling the lever for Hillary Clinton and there are maybe people who want to pull the lever for Hillary Clinton for completely different reasons

I don't understand it but there you go when

I say I can make an argument for that too I want you to understand I'm not someone who says well you know there's no truth on this matter

I can I can argue it this way or I can argue it that way not at all there is a truth in this matter in the mind of God who understands everything perfectly there is there is a right thing to do for us with our with our epistemic limitations with our you know the noetic effect of the fall the effect of the fall on our minds and our judgments and our and our passions our political passions which which cloud our judgment and so forth it's not always that clear sometimes it is clear sometimes the decision is we think it's clear but it's not as clear as we think it is and then sometimes it is just not clear and something we we we all have these moments like when you have to hire someone or maybe you want to marry someone or should

I marry him or should I not marry him or or decisions in what should I buy this house should

I not buy this house the decisions aren't always clear and why should politics which is infinitely important which is more complicated than some of these things why should it be any different but is there an argument for somebody voting for a third -party candidate when you know this person will not be elected

I can know I one could say listen the Church of Jesus Christ is here to serve our

Lord and to witness for our Lord it's not just about am I better off now than I was four years ago it's not just about how can

I use my vote tactically to make things safer rather than not safer we are your vote is an act of worship it is an act of witness and it when the

Church of Jesus Christ votes for a candidate who is apparently arguably this compromised we compromise our own witness and God is sovereign

God raises up governments and he brings them down God has given us these two candidates at least two major candidates the question for us is what are we going to do about it and the church has responsibility to witness to the world in advocating a a godly candidate a candidate who is consciously striving to manifest the wisdom of God in the government of this nation and so I am voting for this third -party candidate because that's how to do that I am

NOT going to vote for one of these two candidates because clearly neither one of those candidates is interested in the mind of God on any whoever okay so so there is a plausible argument and I wouldn't judge anyone for for acting on that argument how would you address the argument that well the president really doesn't have a whole lot to say about the social issues today anyway in fact there's a listener who has a question that really really goes hand in hand with that Bob in Great Neck Long Island says isn't it true that the best way for improvement to be made in this nation is really for the masses in the population who are citizens here to frighten the the president to make decisions that they're in their best interest for instance if the president thinks he's going to lose the support of his constituency in certain areas that will be a better way of securing what we need to have accomplished in this country rather than thinking that the person himself is really in power

I don't know if that was clear enough for you I'm not quite sure what what the question is at first I thought the question was about about the president doesn't have that much power right first place and then it went off into the president is accountable to the people the president of course is concerned about re -election and maybe the re -election of his of his party in Congress and so people should frighten interesting way of putting it should scare the president by withholding their support well that's the democratic process isn't it if you you withhold your support you publicly criticize in hopes that that candidate they will come around to your position so I think this is this is what evangelical leaders were trying to do early on in the primaries people like Russell Moore and and other prominent

Christian leaders in world magazine they did a survey of evangelical leaders and found that very few of them were in favor of Donald Trump most of them seem to be in favor of Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz mostly

Marco Rubio I think but but the ordinary people were a different story there was a real disconnect between the leaders and those they were leading it struck me so as far as what evangelicals were not behind Donald Trump early on in the primaries so but that didn't seem to scare him at all and the same with conservatives all the thinking conservatives were were and maybe still are against Trump it didn't bother him at all so okay well that didn't work as for the president not having any influence over social issues

I wish that were so I wish this were

Calvin Coolidge's America in that regard a very like pre

FDR presidency but that the the executive branch of it has expanded in every direction do you know that the executive branch has absorbed the other two branches that has absorbed legislative responsibilities as well as judicial responsibility yes and so you have a president saying

I don't think this law is is constitutional so I'm not going to enforce it well his time to do that is in the veto process once the law is passed he has to enforce it regardless of what he thinks of it so he he's he's taken up the judicial function there which is the violation of the separation of powers and also we've seen a lot under this president taking up the the legislative powers well caught if Congress won't pass this law

I will put it into effect through executive orders through the way I enforce or choose not to enforce the laws and and then just through regulations insert regulation and then you consider the administrative part of government the the the agencies the you know like the

EPA the Environmental Protection Agency the IRS the Food and Drug Administration all these all these agencies

Congress passes broad vague laws and then they hand them over to the bureaucracy to fill in regulations and and so forth so and then these these unaccountable regulatory agencies and bureaucracies end up executing the laws they end up passing new law in the form of regulation and then they end up judging you for having violated these regulations so these these bureaucracies combine the powers of the executive legislative and and judiciary in themselves which

I Thomas Jefferson rightly said it was James Madison is the very definition of tyranny right yeah there ought to something there so this is this is what's and the president so the president oversees all of that yeah

I wish he didn't have any you look at the the dear colleague letter that his Justice Department and Education Department sent to the schools oh by the way when we interpret title 9 from now on we will interpret it to mean that discrimination against transgender students which is now a thing will will be covered by title 9 so transgender students get to be on whatever sports team they want they get to be in whatever bathroom whatever change room they want and so forth and that's the way things are now that is the public school that changes the whole of American life yes the nature of what it is to be a human being don't tell me the president doesn't affect social policies and and you know his control over abortion funding here and abroad yeah

I seriously doubt that anybody in the public schools today is learning about the separation of powers oh no of course not and I we've mentioned schools a couple times

I wonder I continue wonder every decade I wonder now what will it take to get people out of the public schools into private

Christian schooling or or private schooling the shootings craziness in sex ed classes craziness in bathrooms etc etc etc what what does it take apparently there is there's nothing that can switch some people are poor they just can't afford to get out of the public schools it's that or nothing other people they can anyway but that's so that in hey speaking of throwing things in I noticed a couple of breaks to go and this may be my my opportunity to jump in you had an ad for world magazine yes well back to work your sponsors let me say something about world magazine

I was a fine outfit I was I had the privilege of writing a weekly column for world mag .com

the online version of the magazine and I also had the privilege of serving under Marvin Olasky when

I was the provost at the King's College so I know Marvin I I know what he's written and I've worked with some of the world people on the inside from a distance you know writing the column and they are they are

I think the only Christian news magazine but they are a fine fine outfit

Marvin Olasky wrote the book literally wrote the book on journalistic integrity his book a prodigal press explains what journalistic integrity is what the calling of a journalist is as truth discoverer and truth teller and the world magazine people are genuinely conscientious about the truth and about the journalists craft and they're fine godly people and they really are a credit to the journalistic profession in a day when that isn't always true for example they're they're they're conscious of the temptation to click bait a lot of there's a lot of journalism that is just about headlines and content and ads that will get people clicking and generating revenues they they're not going to go down that road

I mean they want revenues right he pays for things but they won't sell their souls for it they are they are a shining example of Christian integrity in a world desperately need so I just throw that in as somebody from who's been on the inside and knows these people well

I just I just received my new commercial for world magazine I'm gonna get to editing on that right now and I really appreciate that I'm sure world magazine appreciates that very much yeah well well let's talk a bit about your two books the first you co -authored with a liberal who professes to be an evangelical

Christian and yet simultaneously it hears to liberal political views that would be

Lisa Sharon Harper and this is the book left right and Christ evangelical faith and politics and then of course after you explain that book if you could tell us about your new book that's going to be hot off the press very shortly okay sure left right and Christ evangelical faith in politics is a book that presents some broad principles of politics from the left and from the right and then addresses various hot -button topics like abortion health care things like marriage the environment so forth from the left and from the right from the evangelical left and evangelical right it's not supposed to be just a book of right -wing talking points left -wing talking points but thinking about these things on a biblical basis what conclusions arguably does one come to and I am an identifiable conservative in the in the

American tradition of of Liberty and Lisa is a liberal one might call her a progressive

I think is a better term because they believe in human progress in particular progressing beyond the Constitution the

Constitution and also the sort of unfolding of human enlightenment from generation to generation

I think progressive describes them better than the word liberal which used to mean oriented toward individual

Liberty so but Lisa is from that point of view and the book came out in 2011 and and it is it is relevant in any time but I think it is particularly relevant today because Bernie Sanders the socialist from Vermont with his radical views caught the attention of a lot of young evangelicals and a surprising number of them claim to have felt the burn so the and if their their left -wing views are taking a particularly evangelical form they try to be obedient to the gospel and at the same time embrace this emotionally appealing political doctrine of equal outcomes and dragging down the rich and lifting up the poor through state action this is the sort of stuff that is entering their head this is the sort of stuff they're learning about the sort of thing

Lisa talks about this is sort of stuff they get at their you know big Jubilee conferences and these big rallies and events they go to or just stuff they pick up on websites so if the book would be at this time very useful in understanding young people who are trending left and offering responses to them on these on these important topics and helping them bit helping them my side of the book

I believe would help them build a biblical political world view so so it is the book is

I think particularly useful and pertinent at this time by elevate publishers elevate left right in Christ and so what is the new book the title again the other other book is the title is entitled the voting

Christian mm -hmm that's right seeking Christian search seeking wisdom for the ballot box and and it's just that I'm addressing

Christians who are facing the responsibility to vote or not vote in the fall in November and who are seeking wisdom as that day approaches so there's the title and what

I've done is I've taken world magazine column that I've written over the last several years and arranged them in broad principles to consider when approaching the whole question and then various various again practical subjects and some subjects that don't appear left right

Christ like religious liberty five years ago we didn't think religious liberty was at all in question and now it's hanging by a thread so religious liberty the sexual revolution race and police and things of this sort and then there's a reflection back on the last several years you know where we're where we've where we've come articles on the president and what he's done and then some concluding thoughts on post for example post

GOP Christian voting is that where we're going should

Christians be advocating a liberty party or something like this and then

Ross Rod Dreher has advocated something called the

Benedict option we're entering a new dark age as he says and Benedictine option of drawing back from the culture wars and focusing on building

Christian community and Christian witness is is this Benedict option so I have three columns on on that and then the last one is following Jesus as public enemy well that doesn't sound appropriate an appropriate description of our situation you haven't been paying attention so so that that is also a book that will be

I hope helpful to people facing this election and the future in general when is that coming out probably the middle of they're both coming out of the middle of August left right in crisis is coming out

August 9th are you can pre -order on Amazon the voting Christian probably probably about the middle of the month and you'll have to wait for that but if you follow me on Twitter or on Instagram or on Facebook you are sure to find out about it okay that's

David to see in SI n n e s yeah yeah the

Twitter Twitter handle is one I think DC ns1

Facebook it's easy to find people on Facebook and Instagram I think it's

DC ns yeah yeah I'm just on this gram it's really fun well we're going to our final break right now and this is your last opportunity to send us a question we do have a couple of people waiting to have their questions asked so if you'd like to join them and have your questions asked on the air and answered by David to the best of his ability our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail dot -com that's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

and by the way Bob in great neck you are a first -time questioner for lack of a better term because I don't know if you're a first -time listener but you're a first -time questioner so we will be mailing you a copy of the

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David Ennis on faith and politics I am

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and Harrison in Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania has a question that I was going to ask you

Dr. Innes Harrison wants to know what your thoughts are on Hillary Clinton being cleared by the

FBI and he wants to know if you think there's more to it than just an honest investigation by the by the

Federal Bureau of Investigation or if there was some coercion behind the scenes that made them come to this conclusion that she should not be charged well

I wouldn't say there's maybe there was coercion behind the scenes I don't think so the the the coercion was right out there in public essentially the thick he saw that the fix was in before he made his decision you saw the president who is his boss go out in public and say

I endorse Hillary Clinton for president how can he do that right under investigation by the

FBI obviously if he endorses her and the FBI recommends an indictment then he looks bad so the fact that he's endorsing her he's signaling to Comey don't make things hard on yourself make the right decision because I'm endorsing her and Comey is a man under authority he's a very intelligent man and he saw that this is done if I if I push if I push back against this

I'm going to lose and so he did I think in his judgment the best thing he could do he gave a what 20 minute exposition of how this woman was guilty of sin and then said but we're not going to prosecute her because no reasonable prosecutor would there's only one person who's ever prosecuted under this and so forth and so on now just I guess just after this after the

Tuesday announcement former Attorney General Michael Mukasey published an essay in the

Wall Street Journal saying what are you talking about this is an open -and -shut case I would have prosecuted so it's not as if no reasonable person would prosecute her

Michael Mukasey is a reasonable person and a former Attorney General and he said the case for prosecuting her is right there so yeah he saw the fix was in he saw that the the big man had told him or signaled to him in public that this is the way you will decide it and so that's

I think he made the best of that and so I think I think it was short sighted of her opponents to pile on to Comey instead of piling on to what

Comey said that's what I think happened and we also have

Arnie in Perry County Pennsylvania who asked do you think there is a realistic possibility still of a

Ted Cruz or someone being nominated by the party even though the people have spoken in regard to Donald Trump oh no

I don't think there's any chance of that I don't think there's any chance of that at all the the first day of the convention was it was clear on the foot that is yesterday that the

Trump forces are in control the party establishment ironically is behind Trump now and and really the only insurgency yesterday was with a view to 2020 assuming that Trump loses a way of changing the rules so that they can prevent this sort of thing happening again

I think I think it pertained to closed primaries which

I think makes perfect sense to me why on earth would you let non party members elect help elect the party standard -bearer doesn't make any sense but anyway so no

I don't think there's any chance of that it's all wrapped up and you know uh most most people voted for Donald Trump most most of the delegates he won fair and square so on we go now it's interesting that there is

I think you said earlier a 60 % unpopularity percentage for Trump in this election and yet he is also from what

I keep hearing the person who received the candidate who received more votes in the primaries than anyone in history is that correct are they both true interesting isn't it isn't the world a fascinating place

I did what is behind those figures is that 60 % is that a national poll

I think it's a national poll it has to be a national poll whereas the more votes than anyone else in the history of the

Republican Party that is and in party polls and that's not even a poll it's people come out and vote so I think that Trump tended to do better in open primaries which means people who are not registered

Republicans came out to the polls and in greater numbers than ever before and voted for Donald Trump to be the

Republican candidate the kind of pre -voting if you will so that seems to have been the key to his his success and they presumably will vote for him in the general but there's a lot of people but but the people who participate in the primaries are a relatively small fraction of people in the electorate in general even even a relatively small fraction of people who are likely voters or actually vote in the general election so that's the way it is of parties

CJ from Linenhurst Long Island wants to know why specifically do conservatives call

Donald Trump a liberal when it seems the liberals despise him so much and he is for a strong military and his pro -life so please if you could explain why this conclusion is made by hardcore conservatives in the

Republican Party well that's a great question isn't it yeah Donald Trump seems to embody an older kind of Democrat one who is in a sense strong on foreign policy he wants to stand up to the

Soviets is what we used to they used to do JFK was had a tough a tough foreign policy but he was liberal on social questions you know

Kennedy is a Kennedy even back then so Donald Trump seems to be that kind of Democrat he's but but then but for that reason contemporary

Democrats who are far far left now they're even contemporary Democrats are further left than they were eight years ago even so perhaps because of the

Bernie factor and the fallout of the of the financial crisis but so that's why they hate him and the conservatives in the

Republican Party don't trust him because he is this what we would now call a hybrid but used to be called a

Democrat mm -hmm well yeah it's interesting that Hillary Clinton during her primary race against Bernie Sanders I never heard her say ladies and gentlemen of the

United States how could you possibly even consider voting for a socialist that was not her rhetoric it was we're not that different we're almost the same and yet whenever prior to this whenever people would make the insinuations that that the

Clintons or Barack Obama or most of those who are in political power in the

Democratic Party when this insinuations or accusations were made that they were socialists they would laugh and mock those accusations well how could you say that there's not much difference between you and Bernie Sanders and yet mock someone who calls you a socialist yeah the the

Debbie Wasserman Schultz the chairman of the Democratic National Committee was asked on a talk show about that very thing don't you think it's strange that a socialist is running for the

Democratic Party leadership what do you think of that and she just avoided the question hmm well

I want to focus on Donald Trump well let's focus on the socialist well you know let's focus on just avoid the question and Hillary Clinton has done the same thing because they know that a lot of Democratic young people especially are keen on Bernie and they don't want to offend those voters it's all it's all calculation whereas you know you have

Republicans accusing Donald Trump with good grounds of being a Democrat and that becomes a subject of discussion but yeah so now can a socialist be in bed with Wall Street as Bernie Sanders used to say about Hillary Clinton can the two things coincide

I this is this is this is the perplexing question of why exactly he endorsed her as best

I can figure it out he endorsed her so that he could have greater control over the convention and greater influence therefore in the next generation of Democratic Party politics he's he's kind of old he knows he this is his last shot so he's maximizing it he's calculating how can

I steer this party for someone like me later on and this is how he's doing it he wants to capture and he has successfully captured the

Democratic Party as for Hillary Clinton you know we talked about Bernie Sanders is a socialist how can he get the nomination of the

Democratic Party but Hillary Clinton anyone looking at her soberly would admit it's a plutocrat she's not a

Democrat she's a plutocrat the Clintons are all about Clinton Incorporated this is what the email scandal was about hide the emails and any emails pertaining to the

Clinton Foundation and basically selling foreign policy concessions in exchange for donations to the

Clinton Foundation and this is the way she's conducted our foreign policy this is the way she will conduct her presidency when

Bill Clinton was president he did the same thing renting out the Lincoln bedroom in exchange for campaign contributions and and other things of this sort so this is this is

Hillary Clinton not a woman of the people although pretends to be when given the choice between the well -being of the people and even the little people and the enrichment of the

Clintons she'll go with the enrichment of the Clintons every time so that's a plutocrat a plutos

Greek for wealth right so the rule of wealth hers in particular so then

Democratic Party is a mess and we would be focusing on that if there weren't such turmoil on the

Republican side right well couldn't you identify Donald Trump as a plutocrat one could identify him as a plutocrat

I cite his his his

Nevada speech after the primaries he said all my life it's been grab grab grab and now

I want to do that for you as well and and we're all going to grab and we're going to make America great again right that's what he said so now and now he claims not to be controlled by Wall Street he's got his own money well there's a you know that's plausible although he's focused his entire life on making money maybe but he's also had these strong opinions about about the borders and immigration and and unfair trade practices this goes back a long long time so these seem to be core beliefs so maybe there's a genuine patriot there in its own way in its very limited understanding what a patriot is all revolving around business ideas of course not about the

Constitution and individual liberty and freedom of religious liberty and free press and things like that that doesn't seem to be part of his thinking of what a patriot defend understood in business terms he has thought in business terms his entire life you don't change when you're 70 yeah well one of the thing one of the things that I don't understand is that people keep buying the rhetoric and actually repeating it that he was an outsider to the political machine that he is not a politician and so on but yet he seemed to be bragging constantly that he used to buy politicians throughout his whole career

I mean wouldn't that place you right in the middle of the mess if you know because he would when he was confronted with why he had made such huge contributions to liberal political candidates and so on it was always well that's what you do in business you know yeah

I mean you basically line the pockets of people I mean wouldn't that make him a part of that whole machine well yeah he argues that well no

I guess I did those things I'll freely admit it and so I know how bad things are and I'm gonna go in and I won't be bought on the other hand

I mean what we're looking when you look at these candidates you're you're looking from the ground up at their lofty heights and it's hard to make out the lines and the details of their lives you try to piece things together from a distance as though looking through your foggy windows and maybe what he's saying is true or maybe the way he understands politics is bribery and influence peddling and so he expects people to and and peddle their influence or yeah so which way is the peddling going but so which which will be true you think with Hillary Clinton is we know her we know her from 25 to 25 years in politics or more if you're from Arkansas we know who she is politically and we know

Donald Trump from his television shows and his business and self -promotion career in New York City and so forth but we don't really know him politically so there's a lot of unpredictability about Donald Trump and a lot of absolute predictability about Hillary Clinton so this is this is part of what makes makes the decision difficult when you have political people with political records you you know where Rick Santorum is going you know where John John Kasich two -term governor a congressman so forth you know where this guy's coming from and you know where he's going and he's an older guy so he's not going to change this is who he is

Marco Rubio it's a younger man so does he even understand himself probably not as much as he thinks he does so there's there's an unpredictability about Marco Rubio is he just is he just and I supported

Marco Rubio for what that's worth but but how much of it is just a good a good talk that he sincerely believes and I know where does the actual ability come in so there's there's that impertinent predictability within with Donald Trump it's just like what will he do in politics just I mean he was she's run this business empire but running a government is not like running a business empire it's vastly more complicated and takes related skills but nonetheless a different set of skills so how will that let me see she doesn't seem to be having an easy time running a political campaign and that's always a test for how well somebody will run the country not an infallible test but a test a credible test so he doesn't seem to be doing very well on that so how but this is just a question

I'm not making assertions but Hillary Clinton she's predictable so this is this is part of what's before us if he will he be a plutocrat will he be an influence peddler will he be continue his his life of grab -grab -grab once he's in the office or will he universalize it and nationalize it but even then what will that look like as the country grab is grabbing people's oil selling protection around the world will we be that the international mercenary regime who knows and then of course the president is is is limited by Congress he can't just we're not electing him king he can only do what

Congress allows him to do so we'll see how the negotiator does but but in politics he doesn't seem to be as good a negotiator a dealmaker as he has been in New York real estate you would think he would have taken a more negotiative position with John Kasich the popular governor of an important swing state and Susanna Martinez a popular

Hispanic woman governor in a southwestern swing state instead he insults them so what on earth is that what kind of deal -making is that what is he supposed to get out of that so the art of the deal great for his real estate empire but I haven't seen it showing itself in the conduct of the campaign so again there's this this there's this question hanging over but but it's not like we have ten candidates from which choose unless you go for all the various third -party candidates early in America's party libertarian party the the iron

Sherpins iron party do you know

I think we're probably close to the same age I'm 54 I can't so is that what you are 54 yes sir

Wow that's some providential thing and I cannot remember a race a political race as far as the primaries are concerned where the church were

Christians were so sharply divided over a candidate as with Donald Trump I mean there was some with Romney but this was above and beyond what

I remember with Mitt Romney do you remember anything from history even if it was before your time just your knowledge of history where the

Christians were so sharply divided in the United States over a political candidate

I don't remember and I'm not really a student of history but I have had my eyes and ears open again we've been spoiled the evangelicalism as we know it today came into being in the late 1950s of Harold Auchinclay and Billy Graham and so forth and then we came to 1980 where they really got their candidate in Ronald Reagan and since then we've just felt that we we as an

American as American Christians are entitled to a godly

I'm on your side evangelicals candidate because two terms of Reagan then you had

George HW Bush who said he had a born -again experience and he was a thoroughly decent man and who would question him and then of course

Bill Clinton in the Southern Baptist what's your problem I remember at the beginning of his presidency he was waving at somebody on the way to church on that first Sunday after the the inauguration and I know that it was awfully new -looking

Bible unfummed anyway and then George W Bush the born -again

Reaganite I mean there there's a godly man in his own way humble and so forth so George W Bush no problem and that brings us to Barack Obama so there we we so I don't think

Christians have have expected a Christian candidate or you go back far enough it's just assumed that they're

Christian candidates right they're all churchgoers or Episcopalians of one kind or another so what's what's the issue back that that was not the issue it's only after the 1960s and in the 1970s for you where the cultural assault against Christian civilization after that started then we start looking for a

Christian candidate as though that's an unusual thing and we were spoiled and now whether you look after that with John McCain not too many people were upset at John McCain although he did he did stick it to the evangelicals in South Carolina and that had people upset then there's the

Mitt Romney the Mormon candidate what's going on what can we possibly do with this and and if fewer

Christians had dissented from that we might have had a Romney presidency instead of a second term of Barack Obama that's interesting you're listening audience to figure out the consequences of that that's interesting that Mitt Romney used the same accusations against Donald Trump as being a charlatan when it comes to being a true conservative that those were the very accusations being hurled at him because he had been so clearly liberal in his voting record prior to running for president well

I was in Massachusetts in 2004 when the push for gay marriage there was happening and he was against it oh really there was there was only so much he could do as governor of that state but he was as I recall he fought it so Mitt Romney is a thoroughly decent man a modest man but is he did he check all the political boxes correctly

I suspect not but yes sometimes we we look back on what we had before somewhat

Rosalie Ronald Reagan you look back at 1980 and there'd be people who are looking at his record as governor and saying

I don't know about this guy maybe a good Goldwater conservative I don't know about this guy the talk is good over here but over here you look at his record well he was governor of California you have to make political compromises to get things done and you have to take that into account when when judging a politician because you know you're not king you have to work with people mm -hmm by the way we're going half a loaf is better than no loaf as they say right we're going three minutes over because of the fact that we went on three minutes late so I would like you to try to I know that you're not a prophet being an

Orthodox Presbyterian you would never claim such a thing but can you just differentiate what you think

America will look like both to start with if Trump wins and then if Hillary wins okay let me throw this at you it is quite possible that the

Republic is over history historians a hundred years from now will look back and say the

American Republic this year until around then and then like the Roman Republic it just went into decline 1980s with the

Reagan presidency was the last the last push to revive Republican liberty and and it fizzled out and Hillary Clinton a woman with with no regard for the law no regard really for it seems to me anyone other than herself if she becomes president she just may continue that Barack Obama has done terrible damage to our separation of powers the integrity of the

Constitution and then if Hillary Clinton appoints three justices liberal justices then forget it the same -sex marriage decision was essentially made up out of nothing no rather this the

Chief Justice himself said in a sense no reference at all at all to the text of the Constitution that's where we're going so the

Republic may be over Donald Trump may slow it a little or maybe continue it in his own way unpredictable way

I don't know but so that may be I'm just saying maybe that may be where things are going but the

Lord we pray to the Lord for mercy and it would be mercy not our entitlement to look forward to we've got a new a new era of robust love of Liberty but that would be

God's doing despite all natural evidence well if you could in the two minutes that we have left just summarize what you most want etched on the listeners hearts and minds today oh dear know the word know the world and apply the word to the world each one of those things is extremely difficult and could take a lifetime but that's what we're called to as Christians as voting

Christians as living Christians know God's Word know the world in which you're living and and apply

God's Word to the world amen your marching orders amen well how can our listeners get in touch with you if they have further questions or if they want to keep up to date on your books and so on well on Twitter I'm at at DC in us one and my

Facebook page is open anyone can friend me and and David see in us is pop that they wonder one that says the

King's College in New York City underneath his name that's me funny stuff up sometimes stuff about my cat news things and stuff that I'm writing and so forth so I try to make it a value -added for anyone who's following me great well

I want to thank you so much for being back on the program I want to thank all of our listeners especially those who took the time to write in I want to thank my co -host

Reverend Buzz Taylor for being here with me and I want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater