Wood, Qureshi, Dunn

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:35

Well greetings and welcome to the Dividing Line. It's Tuesday. It's hot and sticky here in in Phoenix not well not not overly hot.

00:45

It's supposed to get up to like 109 over the weekend, but Hey, it's it started off.

00:50

All right, but that time of year where it's no longer Hot and dry.

00:56

It's well. I know people down in New Orleans is saying it's always dry compared to us. Well, maybe but The humidity is significantly higher

01:07

Between now and the second week of September. So this is the time period where This is our

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January, this is our January February This is why not everybody lives here because if we didn't have

01:23

August beginning of September everybody live here And we couldn't there's not enough water for everybody.

01:28

So that's that's bad Somebody on Twitter says we miss the chat. What chat?

01:34

YouTube chat. Oh The Hebrew Israelites can't can't engage in nice night.

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They don't Don't play ball with others, huh? Yeah. Mm -hmm Yeah, that seems to be going around a lot today.

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There are many people who don't play well with others these days Sadly Announcement we're doing the dividing line two days in a row.

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In fact, we might do it three days in a row. Who knows? But tomorrow

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Rich's got to find some way of Maybe playing with the lights doing something with the cameras, but we need need to have a decent shot right over here so that It's not just a bunch of you know, somebody hiding in the midst of all these microphone arms and stuff like well, what

02:30

I could do is, you know get some of the real hot lights and Bright ones super bright ones and put it right in his eyes

02:37

You know like the old interrogation movies in the the 40s in the 50s. That really wasn't my intention

02:44

All right, buddy, let's hear yet think about some people would like if I did that yeah, I know

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That's what you need to do Put that Jeff Durbin guy under the hot light

02:58

Found something in my pocket You know, there was a day when finding a quarter in your pocket was pretty cool

03:06

Now it just rattles in the dryer It's about all that's worth anymore Jeff Durbin is going to join me and Finally in some people's minds after all this time, it's actually when you think about less than a month after I left for Colorado, but Today is the day of the

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Internet and the day of deep patience on the part of many Jeff and I are going to get together and There's been

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I even hate to call it a controversy It's certainly been distracting and taking a tremendous amount of time and caused all sorts of problems and difficulties

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But it's a tempest in a teapot. It's uh it is the result of The manipulation of Events misrepresentation of those events combined with agendas on this part of certain people and It's it's sad, but we are going to be talking about Reformcon and I guess there are people out there now who are actually saying

04:21

That no one ever said now that we have demonstrated there was no such thing as this now the the narrative is changing and and No one ever said

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That there was a beer and tattoo fundraiser And and I get you

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I suppose I should have seen that coming yes, oh Okay, you're just oh

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Yeah getting out three dog night, huh, okay, I wouldn't know what that is because I was raised as a Christian, but anyways you know,

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I'm just gonna play one little quick clip here and It speaks for itself we have the written examples and There's there's plenty of these

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But this be one of the things I've gone through what I've what I'll do tomorrow is I've gone through one of the polemics reports and it was the one that was

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I thought Best at laying out what the real issues are and the real issues here is real simple

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There are certain people who really detest less land fear and the reform pump and anybody who will even

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Talk to them be seen in the same room with them walk on the same planet with them breathe the same air with them are automatically really bad people and Even if you have as I have on this program so many times.

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I mean I started I remember starting a number of threads

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In the reform pub. I didn't start them, but I started them by comments that I made because on this very program

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I would speak about People who confuse externals

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Who think if they read Calvin smoke a pipe or a hat and drink wine this somehow makes them uber cool

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And then completely miss the point of anything that say

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Calvin was saying in Book three of the Institute's on the subject of prayer for example

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That the externals are never a substitute for the reality and I have many times gone off after people who would confuse these things and who would show a

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Who would think this is this is this is how I can be cool, and I've met these folks And you know what they don't last long

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They don't last long This is not something you can play with To truly be reformed

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Ends up impacting all of your life Notice I didn't say in the exact same ways

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But it does impact all of your life, and it will Have tremendous impact in the sick room in the hospital at the graveside

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In Every aspect of where real pressure comes along and if you're doing it just to be cool that won't last

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That'll collapse that falls apart the coolness real shallow and I've made comments about this on The program and I remember entire threads that popped up was he talking about us and and what do you think about this and waiting?

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and so it's something that I again, that's why they want to call us a controversy because Basically, I've been painted as the new promoter of the new

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Calvin. I don't know what it is Apology hipsters, they don't even they laugh and as appropriately so Seeker -friendly yes,

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I'll have to admit I have preached at a polygam and Normally, I have to leave

08:31

Because then I go to my own church Because they go so stinking long

08:38

I'm sorry, but anybody who knows what seeker -friendly is Who would go to a church that rents?

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facilities from another church That has uber long services and his family integrated

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You don't know what the word seeker -friendly means, I'm sorry It's just it that's why you know, if it was a real controversy,

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I'd be one thing but this is this is just simply silly It's just it's just based on people just not having a clue what they're talking about.

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But anyway The idea that I have some intention of Promoting the idea that We all should be sitting.

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Well, first of all, I Can't stand any kind of smoke and I You know,

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I've got a couple friends that smoke a stogie or something like that. I'm I'm always looking for Which way is the wind blowing?

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I you know But I'm not going to Cast them off into the outer darkness

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And this is where the real issue this is, you know, Jeff and I have to talk about this because for some people If you do not

09:58

Reject any association with someone then you're promoting them and that of course is where adults go.

10:04

Excuse me. It doesn't work There is there is literally a maturity issue here because for some people it's like well if you won't if you won't

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If you if someone over here does something you don't like Then you need to put as much distance between you and them lest someone think well, you know what it's amazing the things that people think today

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The level of irrationality is shocking and Just because someone engages in a particular

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Behavior that I disagree with who is a Christian does that give me the right to therefore?

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Either condemn them or to deprive them of my fellowship This is some of the things we're gonna be talking about.

10:55

But anyway, I I have digressed The meme that developed early on that was initially brought about by the grossly mistitled

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Article which is one of the reasons it was it is appropriately and properly called yellow journalism

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And I'll repeat that I will not back off of it because no one has given me any reason to do so I don't care if someone nice wrote it.

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It was not journalism. It was a hit piece There's no question about this none and the documentation is already out there.

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It has been for weeks but documentation, you know anyway The meme that developed was that there was this beer and tattoo

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Fundraiser and so you've got you know, people have got pictures in their minds of of a church event.

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It's a Sunday morning and You've got people running around with with bottles of beer

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And you can barely hear the sermon over the buzz of the of the tattoo machines, I guess and this was identified as debauchery licentiousness

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Liceviousness carnality And we actually happen to know what the word debauchery means we have dictionaries and when you use it with other words like lasciviousness and licentiousness and stuff it did

12:23

It's pretty obvious what you're actually saying even though you afterwards try to backpedal away from it and come up with other definitions, which

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Again humorous if it wasn't so sad But now people are saying No, no, whoever said that whoever said that well, the problem is the internet has an incredibly long memory

12:46

I Mean every once in a while someone will pop up a link to some of our old stuff on me from the

12:52

Texas 387 .net 1990 late 1990s

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Stuff with blinking HTML and color bars and just you know, all that fun stuff and the internet just Doesn't forget stuff so just just one little one little clip from what

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I've got queued up for tomorrow just You know and I you know, just in case I've missed it.

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I Suppose I should listen to here, but just just one One little clip here. Oh I suppose

13:26

I should actually activate the right program here. Here we go People are finding a tattoo booze fundraiser

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What was that? I didn't catch that. What what was that term? People are finding a tattoo booze fundraiser and The video chiefly put out by Marcus Pittman as being appropriate.

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I think Unless I'm not hearing. I think that was

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Pastor Hall saying tattoo booze fundraiser and there are many others

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But yeah, it's that stuff still posted there it's it's there and you know people can go through this stuff and You know, there is that there's another one about booze and tattoo article and so on so forth, it's a

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Beer and tattoo thing that night. Yeah, here's here's here's here's Regard who has all the information just the people actually inside the church.

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Was there enough information to be had? Regarding the beer and tattoo thing beer and tattoo thing and it seems to be seems to be all over the place

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So yeah, it did it it was Was used didn't happen, but it was used and and now the facts are out that it didn't happen

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But but anyway, that's that's what we're talking about tomorrow. Not today Actually, I have a whole number there another group of people to offend today

14:53

Some days some months some lives If this is relevant though, this is relevant and right now

15:02

I can tell you ya ya snow is going Oh good. What do I get now? I you know, I really appreciate the fact that David would

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Sam Shimon both have You know come out and said the same thing. I have been thinking about quite some time addressing the issue of ya ya snow

15:20

But they've they've done so Already and I'll just add my my voice to it.

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Yeah, I asked to know Exists to cause division and to end meaningful conversation between Christians and Muslims.

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That's his entire purpose in life I Have never seen a positive meaningful addition to the dialogue from ya ya snow

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His videos are specifically designed to slant to Divide to misrepresent

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I've just never seen the man do anything fair in his life. Not I've just never seen it if he's done something

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I missed it, but He really is a stone in the shoe of anyone

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Muslim or Christian who is actually trying to get communication going and There aren't all that many

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Muslims that want that kind of communication going already So you throw someone like that in there and as David David produced a video that sort of went viral over the weekend

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Where he defended his good friend Nabeel Qureshi from the hit piece produced by none other than one of the contributors to the

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Rolex of polemics blogs I Guys don't you realize every time you use that phrase that everyone laughs, but they're laughing at you and not with you.

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I mean seriously It's just guys stop wake up bad phraseology really strikes everyone including myself as Just I guess the term term today is tone -deaf really really tone -deaf

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Really bad anyway, Seth Dunn Decided to Produce a a hit piece article on Nabeel Qureshi and you'll remember

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I Responded to it. I think the day it came out of the day after I forget which one it was. It was very very soon and What I addressed is a subject that I have addressed over and over and over again in Regards to Ahmadi Islam, we'll talk about that in a moment

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So Seth put this things out and so David did one of those responses and I retweeted it to my followers now

17:54

There are things in it that I'm going to disagree with or take a different slant on during this program But you see here's here's the problem

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There are a lot of people today who seemingly think that you have to have one hundred -percent agreement with someone

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To either think they're a Christian or to Recommend them or anything like that.

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Well, well, do you agree with them about that? Well, then why would you retweet it? There's just our society is demonstrating in this current political season

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An Incredible immaturity in thought and sadly

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That is reflected in the church as well It should be a given That any one of us can express appreciation for someone

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Without demanding that they agree with us 100 % on every single thing in other words

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It would used to be a given that we recognize that there is a hierarchy of truths There are things that are absolutely central and definitional then you have

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Adi Afra and not all the Adi Afra are as important as other Adi Afra and there are some things that will divide our fellowship in churches, but does not divide our

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Fellowship in Christ, for example So I could not properly be an elder in a

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Presbyterian Church. I do not have the proper view of church government I don't have the proper view of baptism from their perspective and yet we can have

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Close communion in the gospel and we can stand together for the gospel and and Things like this.

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Well, it seems that that Fundamental basic adult maturity is missing in a large portion of the culture today and therefore it ends up going missing amongst a lot of Christians as well and Certainly, there is amongst the you know, if you've got a good long stripe of the independent fundamentalist

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Baptist in you there tends to be this doctrine of separation and Unfortunately that doctrine of separation which is necessary on the definitional things

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Ends up going way down the list of the Adi Afra and so we can all sit around and chuckle about the person who

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You know, well we we can't have a anybody in our church who isn't of this particular

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Eschatological perspective you can you can agree with us on the Trinity the deity of Christ resurrection whole nine yards, but You're you are mid -trib

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You heretic. It's sort of like it's sort of like the joke about the guy, you know He's about to jump off the bridge guy comes up.

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Hey life's worth living. They start talking Go all the way down the list about you know Oh, you're a

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Christian you're a reformed Baptist and you up until you get down to I'm reformed Baptist May 1875 and the other guys

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June of 1875 and die heretic and he pushes them off the bridge Many many permutations of it, but it speaks to a truth.

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It speaks to a reality that unfortunately does exist and so a lot of people struggle with the simple reality that we live in a fallen world and even within close

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Fellowship of faith there are going to be differences of opinions amongst believers

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And There are two different kinds of people when it comes. Well, there's I'll take that back. There's there's more than that but amongst seriously minded

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Bible believers There's a limited number of options here, you know, you get the liberals that anything goes and stuff like that You could leave leaving them out there are those who basically say

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Well, this is a term that I heard from someone recently If you can live with me

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I can live with you This is we don't here's where I stand

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But if you don't agree, we will not divide over and then there are others that will go

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If you don't agree with me, I can't live with you now obviously If you take that position what you're saying is what we're talking about is absolutely

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Definitional it it it defines the faith. It defines the faith for me. It should define the faith for you the problem is a lot of people as I said will take that down the list past the definitional things into the

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Things that do not make a difference into the adiaphora And so I think there's a lot of folks who live in a world of inconsistency where they're on the one hand

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They'll say oh I've learned so much from my Presbyterian friends. Oh, yeah, and then in life sort of like But I'm not really gonna treat him as Christians I Mean, I'll technically say they are because I know

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I have to But I can't I can't really act that way because acting that way would mean

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I have to I have to show love and Do with the things that Christians do for other

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Christians, you know encourage them and but I disagree with them Well, you know have good conversations have good debates

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You know, I'm never say I don't don't hear me saying you shouldn't discuss these things

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But you know if you can be open with someone and say I disagree with it And here's why you might end up being used

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To bless them and and to be used in in bringing them into a fuller understanding of the faith and this is what scares a lot of people and you yourself might end up learning something too and discovering that Maybe you had a few things way high up on list right near the border of definitional that Might not be as definitional as you thought they were and it might make you

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Less popular in your certain circles Yeah, that's that's a lot of what's going on that's a lot of what's going on.

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All right back to the story here so David Puts out this video now

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Look I love David would I love Nabeel Have I criticized

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Certain things that are I have I'm gonna disagree for example with what is said

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The basically the Michael Icona if you're in this list and It's a list that is does not have the gospel as its filter.

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Then you're my brother and sister in Christ that's that's where Nabeel is and Everybody knows on this program how many times

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I have talked about mere Christianity Defining the faith solely upon the least common denominators.

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I've warned against it. I've explained why it's not possible a whole nine yards and You're gonna be of one or two mindsets

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Let's use this as an example because one of the things that David said there were two there are two areas in the film in The video which

25:45

I recommended that people watch there are two areas where I would express things differently or have disagreement a

25:52

In regards to the Muslim right of self -definition and the Akhmadi issue and how

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I think that Nabeel should handle that Which I've already talked about in the past, but I'll talk about again but B was this issue of What was it the resolve?

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2016 I keep forgetting what the name was United something look it up.

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I don't know this thingy With all the ecumenical overtones to it and Basically David's take was oh,

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I'm shocked and Nabeel Offered the opportunity to What Well, it was resolved.

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Well, I've seen it described a lot of different ways. Oh Well, whatever anyway

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Um, it basically was said Oh opportunity to preach to a million people.

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Sure. I'm there Together together 2016. Okay Well, if it was an opportunity to preach the gospel and Call even some of the people that were there to the gospel.

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That's different Being a part of the event without expressing clearly

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Your belief that there are many people who are participating the event that do not possess the gospel

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That's the issue. The issue is not. Oh, would you like to have an opportunity to preach to a million people?

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The issue is in my preaching to a million people. Am I clarifying or clouding?

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My understanding of and my proclamation of the gospel. That's the issue and obviously

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This is where I Just simply have to Say to Nabeel can you look at the

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New Testament and Find the Apostles functioning on this foundation or Is it not clear?

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that in light of Galatians that for the Apostle Paul The gospel was

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Absolutely definitional and we're talking the central aspect of the gospel and sola fide being a

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Non -negotiable thing. It's not adiaphora and at that together 2016 thing you have people who not only will not affirm

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Justification by grace alone through faith alone, but preach a different message than Justification by grace alone through faith alone.

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And so the issue becomes one of Participation without pushback participation without clarity

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Now some might say well you've been on Michael Brown's radio program. Exactly. What do we do we debated? We debated these issues.

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No one had any confusion whatsoever as to where I stood we talked about Calvinism we talked about, you know reformed theology and freedom of the will and the bondage the will and the sovereign decree of God and the nature of evangelism and Had somebody call in and ask about tongues and we gave two completely different responses to the particular issue

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There was there is absolute clarity and openness when

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I take that opportunity everybody knows when when Michael asks me to guest host for him his people know exactly what they're getting and Exactly where I stand when

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I when I taught classes at his school back in January The students looked forward to the interaction that they were going to see they're not looking forward to seeing me get beat up they fully knew exactly where I was coming from I Don't know how that could happen at together 2016 and so I heard what

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David was saying and I go, okay, I get that but I Disagree and here's why

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Because one of the overriding Themes of the conference

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Was this unity and this togetherness? but without the clarification of what the issues that have divided us for so long really mean and Unfortunately for many

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Protestants and many Roman Catholics to those issues no longer matter Doesn't matter

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Whether you use that word alone or not, it's it's now in irrelevancy and that's

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That does not help to clarify the gospel at all. So for some people

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What Nabil's stance on that is is enough to go So much for him now, that's not what

31:21

Seth Dunn was saying unfortunately You know Seth's point is well, there's bad people here and it's the whole association thing and and then combine that with you know this this minor contradiction issue that David took apart quite well, and and of course it was somewhat humorous because Seth could use an editor and He he served himself up on a platter to someone like David would at that point he had made the exact same kinds of Errors in his writing

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That he was then pointing to in Nabil's story, which again causes many

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Conservative evangelicals a problem because it raises the issue of dreams and visions and When in fact if you'll go back,

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I don't know I know we don't have it indexed in such a way you can but I Know that it's true.

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If you go back on this program All the way back to 2008

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I think because I think I think I met Nabil either in 07 or 08.

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I think it was 08 It was whenever we went to Norfolk and I did the

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Nader Ahmed Debacle in Norfolk I Remember we were setting up For a debate and it was

32:58

David and Nabil and I and maybe somebody else but we were Setting up for the for the debate and Nabil and I were having

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Theological conversation and The issue of dreams and visions came up and I've told the story over and over again that I Said to him then

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I said look I I hear your testimony. I had heard his testimony I Believe in sola scriptura,

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I do not believe there is Authoritative binding revelation from God but the same time

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I can't say that God's can't use the exact same ways that he Communicated with others in the past today.

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So not to give scripture But in a personal fashion and I said my

33:54

My ground rule here would be very simple If a person remains

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Faithful to the Word of God is always looking only to the Word of God does not continue to look for dreams and visions

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And I said look I've gotten to the age now where I recognize one of the best ways of Determining who's true in the faith is this little thing called he who endures the end shall be saved

34:27

It's not my endurance, but if I have true saving faith it will endure it's a thoroughly reformed concept and I said look 20 years down the road

34:39

Let's take a look at what's going on amongst people who've claimed to have these visions if they are

34:45

Solid Orthodox Believers There you go. If they're off in other religions or in cults and wild wacky craziness that says a lot too and He fully agreed at that time that He doesn't look to dreams and visions for revelation or anything like that It's just simply the the the mechanism that was used in his situation and obviously in the situation of others to draw them to the biblical gospel now

35:25

I Haven't had a lot of contact with Nabil for a number of years. He's often Doing highfalutin

35:32

New Testament stuff He's gotten very much involved with RZIM he's a member of RZIM and and I have

35:43

Criticized hopefully respectfully Ravi Zacharias's Comments on the subject of Roman Catholicism, I've played unlike some people

35:55

I play the comment and then interact with it And hopefully have done so in a respectful fashion.

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Obviously, that's going to be the greatest Influence on Nabil's life is

36:08

Going to be that spectrum and and I and and basically what I have seen is he's

36:14

Adopted the Mike Lycona and Lycona is a big influence the Mike Lycona if you're a

36:20

Catholic Eastern Orthodox But you're you're my brother sister in Christ. I just you know, and I and I just But but here's but here's the question who has a better opportunity of Of Speaking truth in Nabil's life and asking him to really seriously think about the centrality of the gospel and a consistent theological position

36:47

Myself who continues to see him as my brother for whom I am greatly thankful for whom

36:52

I see tremendous gifts in his life. I Pray, I pray for anybody who goes into any university education

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But I especially pray for someone who goes into places like that because it I've seen so many bright promising young men fundamentally handicapped by Less than Biblically conservative theology and worldview

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I've seen it happen many many times I hope and pray it doesn't happen to be in Nabil's case and I didn't encourage you to pray for that too

37:25

Who's gonna have a greater opportunity of speaking to him? Someone like myself who adopts that position or someone like Seth Dunn who quotes from Yaya Snow Takes a cheap shot at his credibility

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And then basically says yeah, I'm not really sure where she'd be from this guy, you know, I didn't see me I don't you know,

37:50

I don't know, you know, blah blah blah. Who's who's gonna have more of an opportunity? Who's Who's who's he gonna hear?

37:58

It might be one of the questions we might want to ask so I can guarantee you

38:04

If if anyone has talked in Nabil about this, he knows where I stand he knows

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That I've engaged in debating Roman Catholics for many many years and so the the question is can you be clear in your disagreement with grace or Is there a fundamental contradiction between these two things and That the only grace, you know has to have a sharp the sharp edge of a sword

38:37

That's one of the questions the other thing as I see time passing by the the other thing that is that I had some disagreement on I did find

38:50

David's discussion and his defense of Nabil as a

38:56

Muslim Interesting. There is a lot of backstory in regards to the nature of Akhmadi claims

39:09

But the same time I still think it needs to be understood that And this is this has been my you can go back this we archive all this stuff.

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There's a reason for it My Recommendation to Nabil Qureshi Has been and I think

39:32

I I think I specifically said this right around the time that Seth put out the the article initially

39:40

Nabil needs to use this issue of his Akhmadi upbringing in a positive way and Hence he needs to be the one that brings it up Determines what the foundation of the conversation is going to be and then uses it in a positive way.

39:57

How would you do that? You would do that by saying now I was raised as an Akhmadi Muslim Sunni Muslims do not consider us to be

40:05

Muslims and in fact, they persecute us and there there's there's a fairly lengthy martyrology of of Akhmadis at the hands of Sunnis and and this

40:15

This is a terrible thing and I obviously I'm speaking as Nabil here

40:20

I obviously think that it's an important thing that that the Akhmadi are a peaceful people But Sunni Muslims Say that we were not

40:31

Muslims. However, I Think it's important to understand why they say that and how it's pretty much irrelevant to my story of becoming a

40:42

Christian because and then go into Sunni Muslims and Akhmadi Muslims are in complete agreement on the fundamental theological

40:56

Affirmations within Islam that are specifically denials of Christian truth So in other words he as an

41:02

Akhmadi Muslim had to overcome the exact same Objections that the

41:08

Sunni Muslim has against Christianity. So I believed in the Quran I believed in the prophethood of Muhammad not that he was the final and Prophet and since there was one that came afterwards

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But I believe in the prophethood of Muhammad. I believed in the reality of the teachings of the

41:26

Hadith I believed that Jesus Christ did not die upon the cross. I had a I had a belief that he was crucified

41:35

But that you know that you can go into the swoon theory because that's one of the other Akhmadi things If you've listened my debate with Shabir Ali, you have heard some of these discussions before But didn't believe that Jesus is the son of God did not believe in the doctrine of the

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Trinity did not believe in the gospel That there is a resurrection that there's a redemptive Sacrifice of Jesus Christ all of these issues

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I Complete fear of engaging in shirk.

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I believed in Tawheed go through all of these things use them as the connection the bridge and say the reason that the

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Sunnis rejected me was because rejected we reject the Akhmadi is because of then introduced a later prophet and any of the other variations that That are there use it as an opening don't use it as something to her.

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Why was a Muslim you leave that alone and then They go look it up and you've got y 'all snow videos saying

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I was never a Muslim. He was an Akhmadi well, why didn't you say that use it right up front as a mechanism of introducing the subject and saying when it comes to the things that you're gonna be talking to a

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Muslim about I Believed all these things and here's how my interaction with David We had a conversation about this and we had a conversation about that and I was telling

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David this and and then you can go into The whole thing that's been my suggestion but I just felt like there was somewhat of a and look there's truth in what

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David said and that is that there is significantly closer if you were to take the circle of Akhmadi theology and the circle of Sunni theology the area of overlap is

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Huge and if you were to take what is actually the central definitional beliefs

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Unitarian monotheism denial the doctrine of the Trinity Those Absolutely central

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Tauheed shirk hell that kind of stuff. Yes David is exactly right that the

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Sunni and the Akhmadi in definitional areas

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Share much more in common than for example the illustration used by Seth Dunn and that is the

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Mormons and There is even this really uber confusing sentence that I guess was fixed later on about Mormons not being

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Mormons or something. I don't know but with Mormonism You have the very heart and soul of what defines the

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Christian faith missing It's only the shell where you have agreement what's at the center is gone because you have polytheism

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Polytheism Just on a rank level and so which is why

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I can say that Islam will always be closer to biblical

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Christianity the Mormonism ever could be because at its most fundamental level it is monotheistic as is

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Christianity So I have used the illustration only to explain the

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Sunni understanding of these things That the Akhmadi are to the

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Sunni as Jehovah's Witnesses are to us. I Was not using that as an illustration of how much overlap or to compare the two just the fact that For for Sunni Muslims the

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Akhmadi are anathema. They are they are Not to be considered within the fold because of the centrality of the confession of the uniqueness and finality of the prophethood of Muhammad and if we are going to demand the right to say

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To to dispute with the Muslim when they say oh, well there were

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Unitarian Christians and this kind of Christian I can No No, no, there's not

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I realize historians will utilize that terminology in a vague sense But on a theological senses those are meaning meaning as like atheist

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Christian. It just doesn't make any sense the Sunni looks at the Akhmadi and says this is definitional to our faith the finality of the

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Prophet Muhammad can't cannot be negotiated if you therefore hold to Akhmadi beliefs then you

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You're not a Muslim in the same way. We say to Jehovah's Witnesses. You may have a Bible You may believe much of what the

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Bible says about this that or the other thing But the fact the matter is if you have a Jesus who's

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Michael the Archangel That's not Christianity and so That must be acknowledged that that cannot be

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Swept under a rug or anything else. It absolutely positively must be acknowledged and you must allow the

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Sunni Muslim the right of self -definition it just You're gonna end up in pure hypocrisy if you then on your own part say

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We demand right of self -definition as well. Stop defining people as Christians or not Christians in the first place

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But None of this is relevant To what

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Nabil addresses Nabil addresses here were my beliefs as an Akhmadi Muslim Hmm everything he had to get over Trinity deity of Christ the cross the resurrection the concept of sin and atonement

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Alleged corruption of the Bible, you know when I met with the with the Akhmadi congregation a number of years ago in New York they

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They raised the exact same issues that any other Muslim I'd ever spoken to raised and showed us

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Sadly a tremendous familiarity with Akhmadi dot arguments Which are not the best arguments by any stretch the imagination

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But that's they showed a familiarity with and so the point is the things that that he would be talking about in his journey

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The things he had to overcome The beliefs that he had to see fundamentally modified on the basis of examination and thinking through and so the exact same things

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Sunni would have to be addressing and so it be his testimony and his presentation is very very relevant as a result of That but there needs to be the open acknowledgment

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Sunnis reject the Akhmadi as being Christian and so Let's move with it from there

48:56

So there you go. I am noticing someone in channel mentioning something about the seventh -day

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Adventists And I do think that David said something along those lines. I'm not sure if David knows that The concept of invest of investigative judgment.

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I don't know. I've not talked to him about it Obviously for me Seventh -day

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Adventism falls in the same category as Roman Catholicism in regards to its gospel and in regards to the fundamental compromise of that gospel that the

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Idea of the investigative judgment involves and so here's

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Here's this video Which Look There is a there is last night there is a there's been but a lot of confusion

49:57

Yesterday there was a some some comments made on Facebook by Len Pettus Who I guess is the co -host of the

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Bible thumping wingnut program not the actual Bible thumping wingnut and we all know that JD Hall was on there recently talking about The Switched meme.

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I call the switched meme. It was you know, let's let's move over into a discussion of these other areas of Christian Liberty and and holiness and because James White doesn't want to talk about holiness has never talked about holiness his entire life

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But He made a comment. He was asked if he had watched a video now

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I made a mistake because the video was David Woods video But I thought it was a different thread and I thought he was talking about the

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Apologia video well, his response was less than responsive and He made the comment

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After 20 minutes, I just couldn't stand the arrogance. I turned it off He actually said something beyond that but I don't find it to be appropriate language

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At least for this program And I Thought I tried to think back once I found out what he was referring to You know

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David You know one of the things that that I don't do that David does do is

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David will post and Sam does this to some of the wild -eyed

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Profanity Filled death threats that he gets regularly and he He gets a lot of them because both he and Sam Push certain buttons with regularity use certain terminology address certain topics

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What's that Yeah, yeah and so He gets some really interesting stuff, that's you know, he's used to dealing with the nastiest

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Salafis wahhabis out there the the wild -eyed jihadists those the kind of folks that that he's normally dealing with so Len described his approach as arrogant.

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Well, you know, I That was not never a thought that crossed my mind and listening to David's presentation

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What I was getting was a clear communication on David's part To the to the good old boy from down south

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Seth Dunn Son, you got no idea what you're getting into here

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You got no idea and basically What he was

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What he was saying was you want it you want to tango I'm sorry, you ain't you got no idea who

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I tango with and you ain't up to it So you want to you want to go the mat?

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Bring it on buddy. You're you're gonna be toast is basically what he was saying And I guess

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Len found that to be just extremely arrogant even though in the first 20 minutes I'm not sure how you get that in first 20 minutes

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No, it was it. It was the end where David did the throwdown Where David said you won't you won't come after Nabil come after me son

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And and and Seth I'm trying to tell you I know you don't listen to me and you don't take much advice

54:00

Don't be stupid son Don't don't don't be stupid He is way out of your league.

54:07

Hey Way out of your league. Okay, don't go there This just really if anybody who is in Seth Dunn's life who can say something to him cuz he won't listen to me

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Obviously, he's even decided to start coming after me now, too Try to try to warn the boy because this is this is not good.

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This is no Now obviously David's never gonna do anything

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Physically harming or something to Seth Dunn but The man's been through stuff that most of us have not been through you've watched his testimony

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It's amazing. Really well done, too I don't know who came up if David you came up with that idea. That was just brill

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It really it's just one of the best testimonies that we've seen David's been through stuff that I I can't even begin to him

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I mean, I can't think of anybody who has a more completely different background than I do.

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I mean, I Can't I I could not possibly think of it and Could David and I debate a few things probably

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I suppose Is the fact that I can look at David Wood and go

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Amazing grace and Yet still disagree with him Doesn't that say something and you know,

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I really feel badly for you if you can look at David Woods testimony and then

55:44

Not Rejoice in the fact that God saves a lot of different kinds of people.

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I just some of my Reformed brethren, you know that the joke has been the joke has been that That you know someone goes to heaven and they're being given the tour and You know, they look in one room and you know

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You've got the Methodists in there and the Methodists are doing their things and the Presbyterian there their things But then when they get to the

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Baptist door, he says be really quiet and they only peek in The reason being that the

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Baptist think they're the only ones there And there's a the reason it's funny is because there's truth behind that and I'm afraid there's that there's a

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Calvinist room up there and I Just get the feeling there are some people

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That if they ever busted out of the Calvinist room and found out that the other people were there that they would just be

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Eternally bummed You know, just just that I can't can't believe these people got here.

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They just I just don't want to be one of those folks I really don't I just And be honest with you the one one one last thing here is we're wrapping up by the way, when you when you take

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The definitional line and push it way down into the Adi offer up realize what you're doing.

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You're doing when you do that You are lessening the importance of what's above the line you're diluting it and When you can

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Get out your theological Gun and shoot somebody in the head for stuff that's down here on the

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Adi offer list You are cheapening The stuff where there has to be division and there has to be a strong stand and there has to be warning

57:49

Against false teaching you're cheapening it ever thought about that those of you who have expensive polemics watches

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You know, you might want to keep that in mind when you When you broaden that category you end up cheapening what we really need to be standing for and what we really need to be focused upon So there's some interesting things going on in In Twitter right now, but tomorrow

58:21

Lord willing things can happen What time

58:29

Good question Jeff and I are meeting for lunch So I'm sort of guessing too.

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I don't want to I will obviously announce it I forgot I was gonna get hold of Jeff and we were gonna

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I was gonna get that so we could just say exactly But I forgot so I apologize, but we'll obviously make sure everybody knows on Twitter Facebook the blog

58:59

Well, I will do like what Rich did this morning and throw everybody off by an hour something along those lines if you want to but In case

59:08

I didn't make this clear during the program David love you, brother Pray for you pray for your safety pray for your family

59:16

Nabeel God bless you and keep you you're such a brilliant man Nabeel. Let's let's sit down talk some time

59:24

About Rome and and the gospel But stay strong man,

59:30

I The pressures are gonna be on you to compromise and to adopt a lower

59:36

View of Scripture are gonna be great stay strong Have Jesus's view of Scripture in all things in all things and Seth brother

59:48

I Don't think polemics is your calling I really really don't and I think it could be end up end up being destructive for you.