March 2, 2017 Show with William Edgar on “Created & Creating: A Biblical Theology of Culture” PLUS Mack Tomlinson on “A Biblical Understanding of Death”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a

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Thursday on the second day of March 2017 and I'm so delighted that we have back in, or should

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I say back on the Iron Sharpens Iron program again, William Edgar, author and professor of apologetics at Westminster Theological Seminary, and many of you know he was on the program yesterday, well we have him back again today to discuss another book he has written,

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Created and Creating a Biblical Theology of Culture and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, William Edgar.

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Thank you, it's a great privilege to be here. And in studio with me is my co -host, the

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Reverend Buzz Taylor. Hello, I'll agree, it's good to be here again Tulsa. And for anybody who would like to join us on the air with a question for Brother Edgar, our email address is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. Our second guest today, 5 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, will be

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Mack Tomlinson, pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, speaking on a biblical understanding of death.

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And as many of you know, there was a mix -up yesterday and it was entirely my fault where I had double -booked

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William Edgar and Mack Tomlinson for the same hour yesterday. And thankfully that did not create any kind of a nightmare and Mack Tomlinson is going to be on the program today,

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God willing, and we have William Edgar on again for this first hour. Well, before I even go into the topic at hand of the book you've written,

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Creating a Biblical Theology of Culture, I'd like to know something about Westminster Theological Seminary, or I should rephrase that,

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I'd like you to tell our listeners something about Westminster Theological Seminary because there are listeners to this program who have joined us for the first time.

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It seems every week we have new listeners and there may be some who are unfamiliar with Westminster Theological Seminary because we not only have new

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Christians at times listening, but we sometimes have people who are not even a part of the

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Christian faith who listen. So why don't you explain to our listeners the Westminster Theological Seminary?

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Sure. So we're a graduate school of theology and we have two purposes related.

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The first is to train ministers and leaders for the work of the Church and the work of the

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Kingdom of God, be it pastors, missionaries, counselors, and so forth.

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The second is to train academics to take positions of real authority in different settings, many of them international, and become leaders in schools, contribute to the science of theology, publish, and so on.

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We have a little over 600 students in all the different programs.

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We've been going since 1929. Westminster was founded by several professors from Princeton Seminary who wanted to have a place that was more solid biblically and orthodox in theology.

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So we have a long history and we've had the honor of having some of the greats of the theological world on our staff, but we mostly want to help young people become solid leaders, and so we're a community that not only teaches academically, but that prays fervently, that stresses community.

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We're a very international community, so yeah, that's something about the seminary where I teach.

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And I know quite a number of folks who have graduated from that fine institution and have interviewed your president,

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Dr. Peter Lilbach, and Carl Truman, and quite a number of other members of the faculty over there, and it's always a pleasure to interview anyone from Westminster Theological Seminary.

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And this book that you have written, it is published by InterVarsity Press in their academic wing,

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Created and Creating a Biblical Theology of Culture. Tell us about the catalyst of why you wrote this book.

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So I spent much of my life studying the issue of how Christianity relates to culture, so that involves what culture is, acquaintance with cultural studies, but also the way the

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Bible addresses this vast subject, and so I poured myself into this.

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It's kind of a project that has been a love of mine for many years, and in one way this book is fairly simple.

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It's a presentation of how the Bible speaks about culture and what is our responsibility in relationship to the calling to engage in the cultural world.

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So if you're looking for the different detailed critiques of cultural trends and so forth, it's not going to be in this book.

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This is more of the principles of how the Bible addresses those issues. So it was a labor of love, and I'm really glad that it finally was able to be published.

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And I know that most of our Reformed listeners, theologically Reformed listeners, will be familiar with the name

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John Frame, but I'll read you a plug or a commendation for this book by John Frame, who is a professor of Systematic Theology and Philosophy at Reform Theological Seminary.

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Dr. Frame says, Bill Edgar's created and creating is the most thorough and the most solidly biblical contribution to the current discussion of Christ and culture.

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Edgar's analysis of the historical discussion is wonderfully erudite and nuanced.

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His treatment of biblical texts and principles is deep and cogent. His conclusion is that God's cultural mandate to Adam is still in effect, and that the

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Great Commission of Jesus Christ applies that mandate to a world lost in sin. I hope and pray that many will read this book and take its message to heart.

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And as I said, that was John Frame. Quite a powerful endorsement indeed for this book.

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And I know that you have this book broken up into three parts. You start with the parameters of culture.

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The second part is the challenges from scripture. And the third part is the cultural mandate.

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If you could begin from the first part with a cultural analysis. So the first part basically is an introduction to cultural studies.

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It introduces the reader to actually the definition of culture.

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And as Raymond Williams famously remarked, culture is one of the two or three most complicated words in the

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English language because it has such a rich history. It doesn't mean that it's unmanageable, but it's very rich.

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So I try to introduce the readers to where we are in culture studies.

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I take both Christians and people from outside the Christian faith as examples of analysts and try to set up the discussion with those introductions.

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And one of the things that struck me as I studied all this is how culture is kind of back on the agenda as it had maybe not been for a while.

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So much of the Cold War was conducted as an opposition between two economic plans and two political visions, rightly so, of course.

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But the cultural dimension is often left out of that.

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And that includes religion and worship and worldview thinking and so on.

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So we now, I think, are more fully aware of the significance of culture just from listening to the way people from both the

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Christian camp and the non -Christian camp are commenting on it. So that's sort of the burden of the first section, is to introduce people to cultural studies.

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And then you go on to biblical and theological reflections.

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Exactly what do you mean by that? So this is an introduction to biblical thoughts on culture.

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And what I decided to do is to take some of the texts of scripture which appear to discourage cultural involvement.

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I call them the contramundum texts. So you can think of John's admonition not to accommodate with the world or so many other admonitions to stay away from worldliness.

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And then I try to argue that that's absolutely true and valid.

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But there's more to it than that. The world is often in the Bible a term for a conspiracy against God, a sinful conspiracy where there's an opposition to his will.

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But there's a lot more to the idea of the world than that. There's also God's creation which is still his good creation, the world as he made it, the world that he came to save.

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And so I answer with some of the biblical calling to look at the world as still a place which is worthy of living in and engaging in and wrestling with and so forth.

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I do this, one of the passages that's really central is Colossians 1 where Paul compares

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Christ's lordship over the creation to his lordship over the church and over the world that he is reconciling to himself.

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And there's a profound unity between those two roles of the second person of the trinity.

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So just as a way to validate the world and its opportunities.

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And then finally in the third section, as you say, I address the cultural mandate.

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That's a term that was coined by Claus Schilder, the great Dutch theologian from Campen in the mid -20th century.

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And he used that to describe the first call to Adam and Eve and to the whole human race after they were made and created in the image of God.

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As you know, God told them to multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and all of that under his blessing.

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So I take that theme and develop it through all its different iterations from Genesis through the

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Old Testament into the New Testament and even into the new heavens and new earth. So that's why

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John Frame, I think, rightly captures my central focus which is to validate and reinforce the ongoing role of the cultural mandate for us today because it has ever been there.

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Perhaps you could compare and contrast on both ends of the spectrum how you believe, in your opinion, both liberalism and much of modern day evangelicalism are violating specific principles you're laying out in this book.

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So to be very simple or simplistic even, liberalism tends to recognize the importance of cultural engagement but it does so often by accommodation.

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You can think of the older liberal Paul Tillich who believed that culture asks the question that then

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God as the ultimate being or the God beyond God, as he put it, is the answer.

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And so what I believe is happening in that mindset is too much of an uncritical control of the whole discussion by what's already happening in the world.

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Another example would be the earlier Harvey Cock who in his famous book on the secular city said that the church doesn't need to reinvent the wheel it just needs to go where the action is, the action being those places of social need or economic need and just try to respond to that need.

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What we might have called the social gospel. He fortunately changed his mind but that was the idea.

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You could summarize it in the word accommodation. Now the more evangelical response, and there's so many of them, there's not just one, but maybe what you might be thinking of is what is the old -fashioned word pietism, which is where we don't really engage in culture at all because the only business we have is to evangelize and save souls almost in a platonic way to take the person as a soul and ensure that he has a passage to heaven.

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Of course that couldn't be more critical if you put it in one way there's nothing else that matters is to trust in the gospel and become saved.

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But salvation is so much broader than just a ticket to the new heaven that is assured at the end.

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Maybe the caricature, although it sadly is true for some people, of that view is whoever said that why should we polish the brass on the

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Titanic? In other words the whole world is sinking and how silly it is to do cultural things on a sinking ship.

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So the third way, which I think is the reformed perspective, is yes the world is fallen and there will be a judgment on the malignancy of sin which has invaded the world.

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But it's not a judgment on the creation itself and that creation is still

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God's place. It's the precious place that is good and very good where we exercise our humanity.

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And you know you read through the New Testament and you see all these appeals to have families and to have fair employment and to be just in relationship to government and all these things that we would say belong to the cultural realm.

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So that's a third way between liberalism and pietism. Well don't you think though that there is another wing of evangelicalism that might even be more dominant today that is really imitating what the

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Church of Rome did in many ways. The Church of Rome is notorious over the centuries of history for having gone into pagan cultures and retaining many of the pagan customs and mixing them with the doctrine and practice of Rome.

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Many believe that that is why the Church of Rome even today has statues that they venerate and so on.

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But you have evangelicals today who seek to draw lost people into their churches by appealing to the tastes, the cultural tastes, of the pagan by instead of preaching they'll put on a play, they will adopt the music of the secular culture that very often is the most shocking and displeasing to the more conservative

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Christians who would find it dishonoring to God. And very often they wind up just doing bad imitations of what the world does very well.

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If you could comment on that maybe you disagree with my comments. I do agree that what the

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Christian worldview does when it confronts culture is two things. The first is indeed it affirms the cultural mandate and all that God has continued to validate in cultural activity.

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Even in exile, the famous letter that Jeremiah wrote in chapter 29 on behalf of the

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Lord to the exiles that says continue to have families, plant vineyards, work for the shalom of the city.

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So that's the first thing it does. But the second thing it does is it has a critical prophetic judgment, a call to judgment against those parts of culture which are problematic, fallen, sinful.

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And I think what you're referring to is that the church has sometimes not been, they've been affirming but not critical.

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And so they've embraced the examples, the accoutrements, the manifestations of non -Christian culture uncritically.

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So you can see absurd examples of that in the way that the

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Roman structures of power were just Christianized. So instead of an emperor and local potentate, you have a pope and local bishops and cardinals and but more subtly you have an accommodation to just all the norms of pagan culture.

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Now it's not as simple a question as we might think because we can't reinvent the wheel at every place.

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So for example, when the good bishops got together in the third and fourth century and debated the

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Arian heresy and responded with the amazing creed such as the

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Nicene Creed that gives us our theology of the Trinity, they actually used some of the terms that are given in Greek philosophy.

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They found that if you look at them biblically, they help us. So the whole, such as the hypothetic union or homoousios, those are borrowings of Greek philosophy but baptized into Christian thinking by being confronted with a biblical worldview.

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So it's not as easy as we might think to avoid worldliness because we're living in the world.

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We can't start a new language, exist in a tribe, write music that has no resemblance to any other music.

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It's a matter of taking what's available and either affirming the good or challenging and redeeming those elements that are not good.

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So again, that's what we have to do. It sounds easier than it really is. And by the way,

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I wanted to make a clarification to our listeners. I did not mean to imply that I think it is wrong for Christians to have theatrical plays and performances.

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What I was speaking specifically of is churches who replace sermons and have things like that because they are more appealing to the lost community around them.

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But we have a listener who is originally from Davao City, Philippines.

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I don't know if I'm mispronouncing Davao or Davao. He now lives in Kannapolis, North Carolina.

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His name is Casey. He asks, this is a huge question that doesn't necessarily, it's not necessarily on the topic we are addressing, but it is more involved in your role at Westminster Theological Seminary as an apologist.

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And obviously this would require a summary because you could fill more than one program on his one question.

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Casey asks, what are some mistakes in apologetics that Christians make regarding the topics of creation, death, and evolution, and how can we make our apologetics better?

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Yeah, that is a huge question, isn't it? Well, you know, there's some things that are just basic that we cannot try to downplay.

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For example, the fact that God did create the world. For example, the fact that he created our first parent out of the dust.

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For example, the fact that the fall came by the decision of Adam and Eve and so forth.

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These are things that are so basic that if we waffle on them, you know, we've sold the farm.

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Now there's other issues that are more maybe discussable. Did it take

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God a long time or a short time? Was there no death at all before the fall?

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Because presumably Adam's decision is what provoked death. Does that include animal death or plant death and so forth?

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Those questions are good ones, and I think they're worth discussing. But they do go a step beyond the basics, which we can't possibly give up on.

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So my role in apologetics at Westminster is basically to apply theology, by which

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I mean rightly dividing the word of truth, to issues of controversy and issues that challenge us from the world today.

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Evolution might be one of them, relativism, secularization.

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There are a number of them. And come down with a position and encourage the young people in my classroom to develop these convictions and to take them out as they lead the church, as they lead in the mission field.

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So it's both a high privilege and an awesome responsibility. After many years of teaching,

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I realize more than ever why James said, let not many of you be teachers, because we'll have a lot to answer for.

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But I appreciate the question. And guess what, Casey? You have won a free copy of Created and Creating a

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Biblical Theology of Culture by William Edgar, compliments of InterVarsity Press, the academic wing.

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And you should be getting that within a week or so. Thanks to our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

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That's cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com. And we thank

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Todd and Patty Jennings for being faithful supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're going to go to a break right now.

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And by the way, Casey, make sure you stay tuned for the second hour, because your question involves death, which is our main topic with Mack Tomlinson, 5 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern. But if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question for William Edgar for the final half hour, he is with us.

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Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. Don't go away. We will be right back with William Edgar right after these messages.

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William Edgar for the first hour with a half hour to go. He is the author of Created and Creating a

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Biblical Theology of Culture. In our second hour, we will be joined by Mack Tomlinson who will be discussing a biblical response to death.

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But if you'd like to join us on the air now with a question for William Edgar on Created and Creating a Biblical Theology of Culture, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com And we do have a listener in Slovenia.

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Joe in Slovenia asks, Please ask Dr. Edgar to discuss how the church should best engage culture without being sassumed by it.

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What are the major pitfalls resulting in failure to be in the world and yet not of the world?

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How does the church remain relevant and in culture as God's gospel agent without taking on the trappings of the world in the process?

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What are the guiding principles to achieving engagement while avoiding immersion? Those are many questions that are really asking the same thing.

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And if you could respond to that very insightful series of questions. Well, yeah, that's a wonderful question.

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The bottom line is stay close to the Lord. When we don't do that, we either fall into the first error we were talking about, the liberal error of accommodation, or the second, the error of tribalism and withdrawal and lack of compassion.

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But when we stay close to the Lord, we have the opportunity to have

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His mind and therefore properly engage the world without being tainted by the world.

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So that's a good beginning. It's a theory, but it's a reality as well.

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The practice is, of course, in the details. And I think there's a lot of room for discussion.

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How contemporary should our music be? Should our services appeal to unbelievers?

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Should the church ever make statements that imply political realities?

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You know, and I think each of those questions deserves a thoughtful answer.

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The church throughout the ages has taken elements from the music around it and has redeemed it and recast it into worship and more

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Christian purposes. Luther famously wrote music that everyone could sing.

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He used Gregorian chant and he used some of the popular pious melodies, but he put them into four parts, homophonic, meaning syllables, each syllable was clear, which had not been the case, because he believes in giving access to God's people, to the great truths of theology that can be sung.

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The church should be welcoming to unbelievers. Paul tells us as much in 1

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Corinthians 14. He says, you know, don't confuse them with your special arts of glossolalia.

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They won't know what's going on. They'll think you're crazy. So there is a way to do that, but there's not...

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The 80s had the famous seeker -friendly movement, which was probably over the top, accommodating to what people thought seekers would want, which in fact turned out that they didn't always.

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Some, you know, some churches thought they wanted to be entertained, and actually most seekers, they want to find the truth.

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They don't want to be entertained. But anyway, there's a balance there. And then should the church ever make political statements?

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The general answer is no. The church ought to lay out the principles for doing cultural engagement in every area of life, which includes politics.

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So if there are politicians in your church, and I know plenty of churches in this country that are in centers of government where there are politicians, you'll want them to be instructed on God's wisdom, but you're not going to want to tell them how to legislate.

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There are some social issues that are so crying and outrageously in need of response.

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The church, from time to time, I think is right to make a declaration. The classic example would have been slavery, or today abortion, or, you know, there are just places where the church can't be silent.

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But in general, that's not the role of the church. It's the role of Christians engaged in their sphere of calling.

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The church isn't supposed to do all things. It's supposed to equip people to do all things.

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So that's a theoretical, maybe, answer to this question, but it gives you broad guidelines on how to protect from both accommodation and pietism.

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And as I say, the bottom line is by staying close to the Lord. And of course, we could do a week worth of programs on music, and we wouldn't even scratch the surface on that topic.

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Obviously, there is nothing innately wrong with using melodies of a secular world to sing praises to our

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Lord, but it depends on whether or not those melodies distract from the very message that we are singing.

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And obviously, there are certain melodies that overpower the words. There are certain melodies that convey sensuality, or frivolity, or things that are just totally robbing us from the atmosphere of worship.

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And those are obviously things that are to be considered. In fact, we have a question on music right now.

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We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, should not, out of Christian humility and having more concern for others than yourself, we treat those in our congregations with utmost respect, especially the older senior citizens among us who may find an introduction of new, modern, worldly music into our worship services as being frightening and distasteful?

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Even if we can come up with legitimate reasons for using new melodies in our worship services, should not the opinions of those who are our senior saints be of great value to us, and should we not be concerned of how they will respond to these things?

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Yeah, the simple answer to that one is, of course. That's a no -brainer. We should always respect our seniors.

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That doesn't mean, though, that their tastes are always canonically right.

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So in some churches, seniors might prefer music of the sawdust trail or 19th century hymns only, but the musical heritage of the church is far richer than those particular styles.

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In that case, I think simple catering to those tastes would be to deprive not only other people but the seniors themselves of the rich heritage that we have.

40:46

It's like every question of style. You want to utterly respect people who have scruples.

40:57

Paul spends a lot of time discussing foods offered to idols and special holy days and so forth, and he says our actions should never trouble the conscience of tender

41:14

Christians, but he never says we should therefore do everything they want. He has a careful balance there, and I think that's the same with music.

41:26

And it's a hard question because music, of all the different parts of worship, is so close to our hearts, so close to our emotions, to our souls, that unlike other areas, it feels like we've been threatened if we are introduced to something a little bit new and different.

41:44

So, yes, absolutely, we should respect the elders, but let's not just build all of our principles on catering to tastes that may or may not be fully biblical.

41:59

And that's a call for mature leadership when the ministers and the leaders of the church are able to introduce, let's say, a new song that is biblically sound, not worldly or whatever the word our friend was using.

42:18

They have to do it carefully, maybe introduce it outside of the worship itself, have a little practice, give a little background, and so that people aren't shocked.

42:30

Think of some of the contemporary music written by people like Stuart Townend, you know, or the

42:38

Gettys. This stuff is not worldly, it's beautiful, but it's a little bit different from the traditional sawdust trail stuff, and it ought to be sung, but it has to be introduced carefully by sensitive leaders.

42:53

Yes, and it's also rich with biblical content. There's nothing soft -pedaled with the gospel in those particular artists you mentioned.

43:04

And you also, if anybody listens to radio that may be going under the guise of old -fashioned

43:15

Christian music, very often you hear songs on stations like that, not all stations like that, but on some of those stations, some songs that are laughably ridiculous, that are, you know, that actually some of the country western or barbershop quartet style singing can bring frivolity into serious subjects that are being sung about.

43:42

Yeah, I once heard somebody speaking with, he saw a lot of authority, who said, uh, you should never clap in church, because that's obviously just always entertainment.

43:57

Well, I hang out a lot in African -American churches, and if you don't clap in those churches, there's probably something wrong with you, because, you know, it's so engaging.

44:07

So you have to be careful with these absolute and these generalizations.

44:14

So yeah, there are limits, but there's not an easy rule book that says, okay, you've stepped over the border.

44:22

You mentioned something earlier, which I think is really important. You can find music that trivializes great theology.

44:32

You know, we can all think of those hymns that take something like the Atonement or Christ's Suffering and have a sort of a lilting waltz, or songs that are over -the -top, you know, romantic, like He Walks With Me or He Talks With Me.

44:52

And, you know, really, those things are easy to point out, but there are,

44:58

I think, serious errors made between style and words that good musicians and deep

45:06

Christians ought to be able to address. Yeah, and I don't know how many of you can understand the words of the

45:14

Battle Hymn of the Republic, but there seems to be some very odd things being sung in that hymn.

45:21

It has a very odd beginning. Yeah, but, by the way,

45:27

I forgot to mention, both Joe in Slovenia and RJ in White Plains, you have also each won a free copy of Created and Creating a

45:36

Biblical Theology of Culture. You have an interesting subtitle in your second section,

45:44

Facing the Contramundum Texts, immediately I thought of Athanasius, contramundum being against the world, correct?

45:54

Correct, and the text that I have in mind there would be the ones we can all think of, which is, you know, we're warned not to be of the world or not to accommodate, you know, what do we have in common with Belial, and we're told to stay clear of even thoughts or words that are less than grace -filled, and some of the

46:28

Bible indeed is very, very negative. When Paul says, don't be conformed, it's about as strong a statement as you could make, and so I thought, because so many

46:40

Christians struggle with cultural engagement and the temptations of worldliness, that I should have a chapter looking at some of those texts and explain what is meant, and what is meant,

46:55

I think, as I said earlier, is these are not, the world is not here, God's good creation.

47:05

It's the cancer, the malignancy that's invaded his creation and that conspires against him.

47:15

One of my favorite places to discuss this is 1

47:20

Timothy 4, you know, where he says, in the last days there'll be doctrines of demons, and there'll be forbidding people the joys of marriage and the joys of food.

47:38

Likely he's referring to some sort of Gnosticism, which at the time, and still today, in its modern guises, tells people to stay away from material things, stay away from earthly things, and Paul calls those doctrines of demons is pretty severe language, because marriage, when rightly conceived, is not a compromise.

48:07

It's a beautiful reflection of Christ's relationship to the Church, and food, when we give thanks for it, is sanctified by God, and it's to be enjoyed to his glory, and it's not just a corrupting agent.

48:23

So, these contramundum texts are warning us against the perversions of things, and not associating ourselves with that.

48:34

It's not warning us against involvement with God's good world, which is still his wonderful gift to us.

48:41

Yes, and in fact, obviously, Peter had a very radical revelation from God about the foods that were no longer prohibited from his people, and that was an astonishing thing at that time, for a

48:58

Jewish man who thought that to be honoring to God, he was to abstain from pork and other things.

49:05

He is now being told he is sinful from prohibiting these things to others. Yeah, that's right.

49:12

It's so important. We learn so much about this balance between being of the world and being in the world, not being of it and yet still being in it.

49:23

From that example, the example of the conversion of the Jewish people to Christianity, how much of their ceremonial law could they bring in?

49:35

How much freedom did you have as a Gentile not to do those things? Peter is an excellent example.

49:43

He had to be told in a special dream with that dining table coming down from heaven that it was okay to consume foods that he would have abhorred from his childhood on.

49:56

We just have a hard time imagining the revolution that that was.

50:02

Mark casually says in one place, by this, Jesus declared all foods clean.

50:09

That was just explosive. It was a revolutionary statement in the

50:16

Jewish context. So, there's a part of cultural engagement which requires that we be almost shocked by our freedom.

50:27

But, of course, that doesn't mean we're free to do anything we want. We have to use our freedom for the edification of others.

50:34

After Paul said, don't be conformed, he went on to the positive, be transformed.

50:41

But transformation is not any practice that you feel like doing. It's a spirit -guided conformity to God's law on the turf of life.

50:51

So, yeah, I think that's an outstanding example of true cultural transformation.

51:00

And you have a section or a subtitle in the second section that says,

51:10

Well, it's more of the same. It's whether do we look at the world and, you know, if we say we're a friend of the world, we can't be a friend of God.

51:25

And there are places when that's absolutely true because, you know, friendship with,

51:32

I don't know, pornography, friendship with embezzlement, you name it, those are enmity with God.

51:44

But that's not to say that there's nothing in this world that is friendly, you know, to us.

51:54

You know, I've spent much of my life playing music on the bandstand.

52:00

And, you know, with Luther and many others, I consider music to be one of God's greatest gifts.

52:06

I don't believe I'm wrongly accommodating by enjoying music and giving that enjoyment to others.

52:13

That part of the world is my friend because it's a gift of God.

52:20

And if I engage in it soberly, honorably, joyfully, then it's a wonderful privilege.

52:29

In fact, it would be, as you were saying about Peter, it would be now sinful to deprive people of that gift.

52:39

You know, it would be, it's the reverse, in a way, of accommodation.

52:45

It's tribalism, which is the flip side of the coin of accommodation.

52:53

You've created your own insular world, and you're depriving yourself and others of the gifts that God intended.

53:04

And it sounds more pious to refrain from things. It sounds more holy not to do certain things.

53:12

But actually, it's just as worldly in a legalistic sense as the antinomianism of accommodation is on the other side.

53:28

Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania wants to know, when we read Paul's warnings in Romans 14 not to cause a brother to stumble,

53:37

I sometimes wonder when we are in the company of those such as Seventh -day Adventists who do not typically eat meat of any kind and view

53:47

Saturday as the Sabbath, are we to be constantly reminding them that they are wrong, or are we to not eat meat in their presence and accommodate them according to their beliefs as to not make them stumble?

54:04

Yeah, that's a tremendous question and a very practical one. Paul's burden in those passages like Romans 14 and so on is not so much with people like the

54:16

Seventh -day Adventists who are sure, and legalistically sure, with all apologies to my

54:23

Seventh -day Adventist friend, that certain abstemious behavior is difficult.

54:30

He's concerned for the weaker brother, he calls him. The weaker brother, I think, is probably a new

54:37

Christian who, let's say he came out of Judaism, and he was just shocked to see a

54:47

Gentile eating pork or eating unclean food, and he's so shocked that it troubles his faith.

54:58

He's just not sure where he is, and Paul says in that case, your behavior should not lead the weaker brother to doubt or to be troubled.

55:13

You have a primary responsibility to protect that person for whom Christ died.

55:19

So he's really not talking about being in the company of people who are absolutely sure about a certain rule.

55:27

He's talking about protecting weaker people. So in that case, yeah, you should be really, really careful and perhaps abstain if it's going to cause your brother to stumble.

55:40

It's interesting in 1 Corinthians 10 and Romans 14, Paul actually says that these people are wrong, but that they are weak, and because Christ died for them, we have no right to trouble their weakened faith.

55:56

You know, presumably they'll get stronger if we treat them with love. So he's not saying, you know, if somebody just won't touch alcohol or somebody eats a certain kind of diet and only worships on Saturday, he's not saying, oh, you should do that, too, just for their sake.

56:19

He's not saying that at all. He's saying, no, they're wrong. But there are new

56:24

Christians who, when they see the freedom of Christians who've been around for a while, might get confused.

56:32

And for them, you have to just be very cautious and not flaunt your freedom, because it's going to confuse their faith.

56:41

And we are out of time, and I definitely want to have you back very soon, William, because not only can we continue a discussion on this book, but you have many others that I want to address.

56:52

I know that the Westminster Theological Seminary website is wts .edu.

56:58

Do you have any other contact information you care to give? No, that's probably the best. If you go there and go to the faculty page, you'll see each of us displayed with their different books and speaking engagements and so forth.

57:13

So you can contact us through the seminary. I don't typically give my email out to whosoever, because you know what happens.

57:25

But if you want to contact me, do so through the seminary, and they'll get through to me, and I will answer.

57:33

I'm a pretty good emailer. So that's the way to find me.

57:39

Well, great. Well, God bless you, brother, and we look forward to having you back on the program very soon. Okay, Chris. Thank you.

57:44

All right. God bless. And don't go away, because coming up very soon, God willing, is our second guest,

57:50

Mack Tomlinson, who is going to be addressing a biblical approach to death. So if you hang on, we'll be joined by Mack Tomlinson any moment,

58:01

God willing. Don't go away. We'll be right back. Tired of box store

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631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

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01:01:16

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God, or am

01:01:21

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01:01:50

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01:05:07

That's the Thriving Story. Welcome back, this is

01:05:20

Chris Sarnes, and before I introduce my guest and our topic for the second hour, I want to remind you that Iron Sharpens Iron is in desperate and urgent need of new advertisers, sponsors, and benefactors in order to remain on the air.

01:05:36

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01:06:40

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01:08:01

Well our second guest for the second hour of the program today is my friend Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

01:08:09

We are discussing a biblical understanding of death, and he is also going to be promoting the

01:08:15

Fellowship Conference New England in Portland, Maine, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Mac Tomlinson.

01:08:24

Greetings, thank you for having me again, it's always a blessing to be on with you. And I apologize from the depths of my heart for the error made yesterday when

01:08:32

I completely forgot that I had already booked William Edgar for our second half of the program, and when he called in he totally took me by surprise.

01:08:41

He obviously beat you to the punch when he called in, and I had completely forgot that I had already booked him.

01:08:47

So I'm glad it worked out that you could be with us today. Glad to be with you.

01:08:53

Well before we go into the topic at hand, tell us something about Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

01:08:59

Our church is a Reformed Baptistic congregation in the heart of Denton, which is in North Texas, about 30 miles north of Dallas, 30 miles north of Fort Worth, and we are a gospel -centered, loving church family that takes seriously the gospel and the truth of God's word and missions and evangelism, and we have a real community of fellowship.

01:09:29

So anyone who is through our area is welcome to visit us, or any believers in North Texas within driving distance of Denton who's interested in a

01:09:45

Reformed Baptistic church, you can feel free to contact us. Our website is

01:09:50

ProvidenceDenton .org. ProvidenceDenton .org.

01:09:56

Great, and I'm still praying that my brother John, who lives about 10 minutes from you, eventually does visit that church.

01:10:04

I am not ceasing in my prayer for that end. We would love to meet

01:10:10

John and be with him any time. In fact, I would invite my listeners to join me in praying that my brother

01:10:16

John, who lives not far away from Providence Chapel, does eventually come to visit that church and meets my dear brother

01:10:25

Mac face -to -face. I'm looking forward to that coming to fruition. Tell us also something about Fellowship Conference New England.

01:10:34

My co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, used to live in that area. Your Fellowship Conference New England will be in Portland, Maine, as it is every year.

01:10:45

Tell us about this conference. Well, the conference started approximately five years ago when some

01:10:52

Christians in Portland, the greater Portland area, were burdened to have something in Upper New England.

01:10:59

They would both encourage pastors and believers and Christian families.

01:11:06

So they approached us because we have a Texas conference, Fellowship Conference, here in Denton every

01:11:14

Easter weekend. They asked us if we would consider establishing a summer conference in Portland.

01:11:21

So we did that five years ago. It is always the first week of August in Portland. The website is fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

01:11:35

I believe right now, at the present moment, the website is being improved.

01:11:43

Yes, that's not in operation right now, but people can find it. They can go to Facebook. Right. It will be up soon, though.

01:11:52

But the conference is August 3rd through the 5th. That's Thursday through Saturday.

01:11:58

So all are welcome in the greater New England area. We have people that come from Canada, New Brunswick area, and as far south as New York State, New York City, all the way up into the

01:12:14

New England state. So it's a wonderful time of warm fellowship, good preaching and teaching.

01:12:22

It's gospel -centered. And we usually have a lunch for the ladies one day, a lunch for the pastors and church leaders one day as well.

01:12:34

And the registration cost is minimal. I think it's $20 to $30 for a person or for a couple.

01:12:44

So it's very affordable. And we really welcome anyone who would like to visit

01:12:49

Portland the first week of August to join us. You would also be able to see some of the main coast if you could combine it with some sightseeing.

01:12:59

It's a marvelous time. So thank you for letting us mention it. And I think that in one of your recent fellowship conference

01:13:09

New England events, you had at least one of my Iron Sharpens Iron listeners attend that, did you not?

01:13:16

I think that's right. That's true. And so we welcome all.

01:13:23

If you're listening to Iron Sharpens Iron and you can make that summer conference in Portland, it is a very wonderful, loving pastoral atmosphere.

01:13:34

The fellowship is genuine and we heartily welcome you to come. In fact, until your website is brought up, you can go to facebook .com

01:13:46

forward slash fellowship New England forward slash.

01:13:52

That's facebook .com forward slash fellowship New England forward slash.

01:13:58

And fellowship New England is all lowercase. And you can get information on there as well.

01:14:06

And who is speaking at the conference other than yourself? Well, some are yet to be announced.

01:14:15

But Pastor Jesse Barrington from Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas will be speaking again.

01:14:24

He's been there twice. And he's a great blessing always. He's one of the favorites at the conference.

01:14:31

Myself, I will be there hosting the conference and probably at least speaking once.

01:14:40

Don Curran from the Northwest Alabama area,

01:14:47

Tuscumbia, Alabama area, who is a pastor and an evangelist. He's also works with Hard Crime Missionary Society.

01:14:57

That's where Pearl Washer is director of that. Yes. Yes. Paul Washer's work, Hard Crime.

01:15:03

Don Curran is the U .S. director of Hard Crime's work in Eastern Europe. And Don is a wonderful preacher.

01:15:11

He will be there this year as well. And so we're there's also the tentative possibility of Nathan Pickowitz, who's a

01:15:22

Reformed pastor nearby Portland in New Hampshire. He has written, by the way, a small good book on revival in New England and the need for it today.

01:15:34

Nate is a faithful brother. Well, let him know. I'd love to interview him. Yeah, he likely will be preaching, joining us as well.

01:15:44

So some are yet to be determined, but it will be a good lineup. I wonder if,

01:15:51

I don't know if you are aware of this, Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida has a radio station that is now airing

01:15:59

Iron Sharpens Iron every day. And I wonder if there's any connection with the Grace Life Church that you mentioned in Texas.

01:16:06

I do not know, Chris, at all. I'll have to ask Pastor Brandon Ellickson of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, if there is a connection.

01:16:17

Yeah. Because I know, I think there is some kind of an affiliation with other Grace Life Churches, churches of that name that are

01:16:24

Reformed Baptist churches. Well, I am hopefully going to attend that,

01:16:30

God willing, if I can work that out in my schedule and budget. So I will keep you updated on that,

01:16:36

Pastor. And this subject of death is something that is not pleasant to think of and talk about, but it's a reality, one of the most vividly tangible and important realities that we all have to face.

01:16:54

We have to face it in our own lives. Some of us are facing it in more real ways than others, because some of us are aware that we are either very elderly or have some kind of a terminal illness or fatal injury that we have not yet succumbed to.

01:17:16

And this is a pressing issue. And obviously, the young who think naively that they're going to live forever, or at least behave that way, may not take this issue as seriously as the older folks like you and I do, but they should take it seriously, because even they, in the prime of their health and youth and strength and vitality, could be snuffed out in a moment, in a second, in a twinkling of an eye, with an automobile turning the wrong way or any of a number of other things that could happen.

01:17:56

In fact, I'm going to use a question that was asked of my first guest from someone in our audience.

01:18:04

I'll ask you the same question, but narrow the focus on to the subject of death.

01:18:11

We have a listener originally from the Philippines who now lives in Annapolis, North Carolina.

01:18:21

His question, his name is Casey, and Casey's question,

01:18:27

I have to enlarge his font because it's microscopic and I can barely read it.

01:18:33

Casey's question for our first guest, which I think is applicable to you, is, what are some mistakes in apologetics that Christians make regarding the topic of death?

01:18:45

I narrowed the focus on to death because of our subject with you. Well, particularly apologetics has to do with defending a doctrine, defending the faith in a particular truth.

01:19:05

It's not apologizing for something as if we're saying we're sorry, but it has to do with defending a truth, so to speak.

01:19:15

So, I guess I'm understanding the question rightly. To address the topic of death biblically, the proper apologetics would be, obviously, first of all, to realize how much the

01:19:34

Bible speaks of the issue of death widely. Any Christian or any person who even respects the

01:19:42

Bible, if they did a topical reading of the Bible on the subject of death through the

01:19:49

Old Testament into the New, it would be astounding to them to find out how much the

01:19:55

Bible speaks of it. So, I think it's a very, it's, I suppose when you're thinking about our life on earth, death is the biggest topic we could think about.

01:20:10

And in one sense, if death takes us into eternity, it's got to be the most important topic in a way.

01:20:19

So, but the irony is it's the topic we shun the most, that we won't think about, that we don't want to talk about.

01:20:29

Whenever I bring up the subject of death, my own death to my children or grandchildren, invariably they will interrupt me, they will cut me off, and they say, we don't want to talk about this, we don't want to talk about death.

01:20:43

And so, that's human nature. And the reason is, Hebrews 2 says an amazing thing, the writer to the

01:20:51

Hebrews said, speaking about all men, all men who are partakers of flesh and blood, that all men through the fear of death, all their lifetime are subject to bondage.

01:21:05

And so, there is a fear of death universally, because all men know in their hearts, they're going to face that.

01:21:13

And someone jokingly said, the statistics are now in one out of one persons die.

01:21:22

So, I think the apologetic or the defense of the issue of death is simply stated, the

01:21:30

Bible addresses it so much, not only the certainty of it, not only the uncertainty of it as far as when it will happen to us, but the irreversible permanence of it.

01:21:46

And the Bible teaches us clearly how to view it, how to understand it, and how to courageously prepare for not only our own coming death, but the death of those that we love.

01:22:01

Yes, and I don't know how prevalent it is in the media today, but there was a time not long ago when

01:22:09

Christian media was saturated with the warnings of our dispensationalist brothers that people better turn to Christ because the rapture is coming and they will be left behind, otherwise.

01:22:26

Shouldn't that warning have more to do, regardless of what your eschatology is, shouldn't that warning be more to do with you better repent because you may die at any moment and you will be faced with Christ, the judge of all the earth, and he will either be your friend and savior welcoming you with open arms into eternal glory with him, or he will be casting you into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

01:22:57

Shouldn't that be more of the concept that we are conveying to people? The more urgent and immediate warning should be that of death?

01:23:07

It absolutely is. I couldn't agree more because if we want to think eschatologically, the end of things, the great reality is the

01:23:19

New Testament, especially in the Old Testament, warns us more to be ready for death as much as it warns us to be ready for the second coming of Christ.

01:23:33

And so it is true that right thinking, biblical thinking, tells us the most important thing to prepare for in the future is our own death and to be ready to stand before the

01:23:49

Lord. Perhaps you should have a word of warning to our young people who think like this and I'm about to describe the way

01:24:01

I thought when I was young. I can remember as a young man,

01:24:07

I was not like a lot of folks are before they come to Saving Faith in Christ, who totally reject the idea of the claims of Christianity.

01:24:22

They reject the Bible, they reject the existence of God, and they reject

01:24:27

Jesus Christ. They look at it all as nonsense. I was not among people like that.

01:24:33

I was perhaps worse because even as a young man, having been raised

01:24:38

Roman Catholic and basically abandoning any attendance or connection with the church for a long period of time as a teenager,

01:24:48

I believed at least that the God that I was taught existed as a

01:24:55

Roman Catholic child. I believed that that God was real. I believed that God existed.

01:25:00

I believed that Jesus Christ existed. I believed in heaven and hell. And I was consciously rebelling against this.

01:25:09

But I naively thought, well, it is only right, natural, and normal, and expected, and acceptable for a teenager or a young person to sow their wild oats, to live like the devil or any way that pleases you until you are older.

01:25:28

And then, of course, when you're older, and you're married, and you have children of your own, that is the time to become a more respectable member of society, and to be a churchgoer, and a

01:25:40

God -honoring, God -fearing person. But I can still even remember as a young man in that state of rebellion, while in an automobile of a friend who happened to be driving at very high speeds, recklessly, while under the influence of a drug or alcohol,

01:25:59

I can even remember praying, God, don't let me die now, because I know that I will be in hell.

01:26:04

Spare me of this, and I promise I'll repent tomorrow. And of course, I never did repent the next day. But I'm sure you can, in some way, empathize with this kind of mindset,

01:26:18

Mac, and if you could give a bit of a warning to our listeners who especially are of the younger age bracket who may feel this way.

01:26:26

Right. Well, I think it's human nature to presume upon life, and to delude ourselves into thinking we have our whole future in front of us.

01:26:41

But think about this. The 75 -year -old doesn't face the fact that they could die in the next year.

01:26:51

The 75 -year -old, in his mind, presumes, I've probably got another 20 years. Yeah. The 55 -year -old presumes he's got another 30.

01:26:59

Yep. The 35, you know, on and on down. And certainly, teenagers. I have had, in my past, at least three teenagers who were 15 to 19 years old who died suddenly, unexpectedly.

01:27:17

They were close to my family. And young people simply cannot get it into their heads that they could die as easily as an elderly person.

01:27:31

They just can't believe it because they feel immune from it. They feel strong.

01:27:37

They feel like their whole future is ahead of them. They don't think about disease or cancer or a car wreck.

01:27:44

And so, it's a very rare young person. Usually, young people, when they have friends that die, it's a wake -up call.

01:27:53

And they realize for the first time, death really is real.

01:27:59

When it hits somebody they know or love, that's when it becomes real to them for the first time.

01:28:05

And, you know, the Bible says, in the Old Testament, the righteous perish and no one takes it to heart.

01:28:14

And so, it's the rare person that can let the death of another person affect their hearts where they make it a wake -up call for themselves.

01:28:26

And I know we're going to be having to go to a break soon. In fact, we're going to a break right now, actually. Okay. When we get back, when we come back,

01:28:36

I want to share a little bit of personal history that has made this subject so real to me personally.

01:28:43

Oh yeah. In fact, I know that there have been providentially a lot of deaths in your own congregation very recently.

01:28:50

Yes. And we will address that when we return from the break. This is our final break. If you care to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:28:59

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Mack Tomlinson and our subject of a

01:29:05

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We invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

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01:33:14

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the second hour, with a half hour to go, is

01:33:20

Pastor Mack Tomlinson, pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. We are discussing a biblical response to death.

01:33:27

Anyone who would like to join us on the air with your own question may email us at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:33:34

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And if you could, Pastor Mack, continue with your comments about the recent deaths in your own congregation.

01:33:45

Well, even before that, my own experience in my life has been unique.

01:33:53

It's made me face death, because both my parents died by the time

01:33:58

I was eight, and then my stepfather, who was a very loving man, my cousin adopted me after my parents died, and her husband, who was like an adoptive father, died when

01:34:10

I was 12 in my presence. And then the next father figure I had in my life, a close uncle, died when

01:34:19

I was 19. Wow. So I began to face this many times early on, and I was thrust into facing and experiencing the reality of death.

01:34:30

And after my wife and I, Linda and I have been married 38 years, and our first child, who was born on the due date, died the first week, suddenly.

01:34:44

And so we buried our first child, and then both her loving parents died soon after.

01:34:53

And so it's been a great reality to me to have to face death.

01:34:59

And when you have that pain and the sorrow that goes with that, you begin to experience the reality that there must be answers to this issue.

01:35:11

I can't avoid it. And God does not want me to be afraid of it. And so I've faced the death of at least 25 people that I've been close to, family and close friends in the ministry.

01:35:29

I've spoken at three or four of the funerals of colleagues of mine who are my age, who are now with the

01:35:38

Lord. But it's been an amazing experience our church has had. In the past 10 weeks, suddenly, our church members began to have faced the death of loved ones and family members.

01:35:55

It started with one of our elders, his wife's grandfather, very godly man, passing away at an old age.

01:36:05

But it was a strong loss because our whole church was close to him. And then another woman, young woman, her grandfather died suddenly in another country, and she couldn't go to the funeral.

01:36:23

And then since that time, seven or eight other deaths have directly affected our church.

01:36:28

The greatest loss being one of our pastors, his mother -in -law and mother died two days apart.

01:36:39

And he had to do both funerals. And then a week later, his sister -in -law that he and his wife were close to, who was a strong believer, she died with great, great joy and assurance in Christ.

01:36:56

So in a matter of two weeks, this pastor of ours has buried three close family members.

01:37:05

And this is just a sermon to all of us. As somebody said, every death is a sermon.

01:37:13

Every cemetery is preaching to us that the reality of death is ever before all of us, and it always will be.

01:37:22

And I think one of the greatest things I could urge every listener to face is you have parents and grandparents.

01:37:31

You have a husband, a wife. You have grown children. You have young children. You have loving relatives that you love, or maybe broken relationships with some.

01:37:42

You have friends and family and neighbors, and you are going to face their deaths sooner than you realize, and you're going to go through that loss.

01:37:54

And those who do not face the issue of death, they don't handle it well.

01:38:00

They can't take the sorrow. They fall apart. They fall into depression. But those who face the reality of death and learn to think biblically about it, they do much better when death comes to those that they love.

01:38:14

Martin Lloyd -Jones said, the Christian must prepare not only for his own death, but for those they love.

01:38:22

So there's a real preparation that we must go through, and we need to face the issue.

01:38:28

We must face it if we would live life fully and be ready for the day that our death comes.

01:38:38

Why don't you go through some of those preparatory things that we should do? Well, the first thing

01:38:45

I think that comes to my mind is many people have never read some of the major things the

01:38:53

Bible actually says about death. For instance, I remember there was a rock group in the 1960s called

01:39:00

The Birds, and they had a very famous song to everything there is a season. That's right.

01:39:05

Right from the Bible. Right. Right from the Bible. Time for every purpose under heaven. And it became a very well -known song.

01:39:11

Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes 3, 1, 2. In Solomon's words, but the very first thing he lists in that passage from Ecclesiastes 3, 1 through 8, the first thing he lists is there's a time to be born and a time to die.

01:39:32

We love to think about birthdays or the birth of children, but we do not at all like to think about the time to die.

01:39:42

But Solomon said something amazing five chapters later in Ecclesiastes.

01:39:47

In chapter 7, he says this. It's astounding what God says, because God's view of this is much different than ours.

01:39:57

In Ecclesiastes 7, Scripture says a good name is better than precious ointment, and the day of death is better than the day of one's birth.

01:40:08

Better to go to the house of mourning than to go to the house of feasting, for that is the end of all men, and the living will take it to heart.

01:40:18

So I think what we need to do, we need to let this reality sink into our minds as hard as it is, as much discomfort as people have in thinking about death or talking about it.

01:40:33

They do need to give thought to it. Someone said in the past, he is worse than a fool who has no thought or preparation in facing death.

01:40:47

And the irony is, we all know we're going to die, and yet we ignore the issue, almost on purpose, because it's too painful for us.

01:41:00

I think one Puritan said, there is no one so old that they think they will live one year longer.

01:41:08

And though in general, he says everyone's going to die, yet in the false numbering of his own particular day, he thinks he'll live forever.

01:41:20

And so the Bible's picture of death has some major things to it.

01:41:26

Number one, the Bible clearly teaches that death is coming for every person and for many people much sooner than they realize, but life passes quickly, so death honestly is coming soon for everyone.

01:41:43

And the second thing that we need to think about biblically is that death is the door for everyone into eternity.

01:41:55

The Bible does not teach purgatory, as the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

01:42:03

The Bible does not teach soul sleep or annihilation. We cease to exist.

01:42:10

The Bible teaches that when a person dies, their physical body ceases to be alive, and their soul, the real them, is alive in eternity forever, either in heaven or in hell.

01:42:25

And so this is the great reality. Death doesn't end anything. It only begins eternity, and everyone will be alive somewhere forever.

01:42:39

And I think the next major thought that comes to my mind is that death is irreversibly permanent.

01:42:49

There's no going back. There's no new life in the future where we're reincarnated.

01:42:59

The Bible says it's appointed unto man once to die, and after this, the judgment.

01:43:05

As one poet put it, it says the tree cut down and falls to north or south, and there it lies.

01:43:12

So man departs to heaven or hell, fixed in the state wherein he dies.

01:43:19

And it really is true. And to think about these things, they seem negative.

01:43:27

They seem almost very uncomfortable for some people.

01:43:33

But actually, this is the path to gain courage and perspective to view death rightly, because as another person said, there is nothing more certain than death, nothing more uncertain than the time of death.

01:43:49

I will therefore be prepared at all times for that which may come at any time.

01:43:56

And that's an amazing word of wisdom. But let me speak for the moment just to the issue of the

01:44:07

Christian and death. The Bible views death as an amazing, positive thing for the

01:44:14

Christian. It says things like this. Psalm 116, verse 15 says,

01:44:21

Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of the saints. So God views the death of a

01:44:27

Christian as a precious thing. No Christian, if their wife died or their child who's a

01:44:35

Christian dies suddenly, no one, upon hearing the death of another

01:44:40

Christian, no one replies by saying, Oh, how precious is that? That's really precious.

01:44:47

We don't use that word about death, but God does. He says,

01:44:53

Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of a saint. Now, why is death a precious thing?

01:45:00

Because Christ has conquered death for the Christian. And the last enemy, death, has now become a friend, actually.

01:45:08

It's become a blessing, because it escorts us into the very presence of Christ.

01:45:16

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5, to be absent from the body is to be present with the

01:45:23

Lord. And Paul said another amazing thing in Philippians 1, 21, when he's torn about whether he's going to die soon or whether he should stay here and help the

01:45:36

Philippian church and other churches. And he says, I'm convinced that I'm going to remain because that's going to be better and more profitable for you.

01:45:47

But before that, he said this, to live is Christ. In other words, my whole purpose for living is to know and glorify

01:45:57

Jesus Christ and advance his gospel in the earth. But then he said, and to die is, and he used one word, gain.

01:46:09

Paul viewed death as a gaining. And in another place, he said,

01:46:15

I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. And so I think the

01:46:21

Christian has to develop this mentality, when I die, I'm not going to be asleep.

01:46:30

I'm not going to suffer. I'm going to wake up in eternity in the presence of Christ with great joy.

01:46:38

I'm going to see him. And that will be exceedingly far better than anything

01:46:43

I've ever experienced on earth. One other scripture that comes to my mind, and then

01:46:50

I'll pause. I recently heard a wonderful Scottish Christian leader,

01:46:57

Ian Murray. I heard a sermon by his on Revelation 14, 13, and the title of the sermon,

01:47:05

I would recommend all your listeners to go hear it. How we should view death or viewing how we should see death by Ian Murray.

01:47:16

And his text was Revelation 14, 13, which says this. Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, right.

01:47:26

So God was telling John the apostle to write this, the following words, blessed or happy.

01:47:34

The word is happy. Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord. From now on, yes, says the spirit that they may rest from their labors and their works.

01:47:47

So there will be no sadness in death for the Christian. It only brings blessedness and eternal happiness.

01:47:56

And it's going to bring rest from all pain, all sorrow, all sadness.

01:48:03

All of that will be behind us when we're in eternity with the Lord. And our works of love for Christ, service to Christ, faith, follow us into eternity, but death does not.

01:48:17

As John Owen, I believe the Puritan said, when Jesus Christ died, it was the death of death.

01:48:25

The cross of Christ put death to death. And now death has been conquered for the

01:48:32

Christian. And as John Owen put it, the death of death and the death of Christ. Right.

01:48:40

Now, this is an interesting dichotomy that you've brought up because Christians are to view death as an enemy, but at the same time, death is this glorious gateway to presence with Christ, if indeed you are one of his own.

01:49:02

One thing that had disturbed me is having interaction with hospice workers that were taking care of my mother when she was dying of pancreatic cancer.

01:49:14

I thank God from the depths of my heart that my mother revealed that she had genuinely embraced the true gospel.

01:49:25

Having been a Roman Catholic all of her life, she abandoned all thoughts of the intercession of Mary and the saints of venerating relics and images.

01:49:42

When I asked her on her deathbed why she believed she was going to heaven, she said, it's only because of the death of Jesus.

01:49:52

And I said, really, hasn't any of your own good works have anything to do with it? Don't you think that you in some way are earning heaven by all the wonderful things you did?

01:50:02

And she said, absolutely not. And she said, that would be like the Pharisee who prayed, oh Lord, I thank you that I'm not a sinner like this tax collector.

01:50:10

The tax collector said, Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. And Jesus said that the tax collector was saved.

01:50:17

And my mother said, I am like that tax collector. I almost fell off my chair when my Roman Catholic mother said that to me.

01:50:24

But the hospice workers who were not even Christian, at least not Bible -believing ones, not real ones, they had this idea that they were trying to convey to all of their patients, no matter who those patients were, welcome death.

01:50:41

Death is our friend. Death is beautiful. Death is a part of life. Death is something that you should just embrace with open arms.

01:50:48

And I had to rebuke them for telling this to my mother because I was saying to them, you know, what you're saying, the only reason that death is in any way welcome is if you are indeed a

01:50:59

Christian who is going to spend an eternity with God. Death is not this wonderful thing you claim it is for every single person because they will be in an eternity in hell if they do not have

01:51:11

Christ. And they were just totally taken aback by my comments to them. But you can explain or respond to what

01:51:18

I just said. Well, it's very common in our world, from Hollywood to media worldwide to the most liberal person who denies the existence of God, when people they love die, inevitably they will all comment about they're in a better place or I know they're looking down on me right now.

01:51:45

So the Bible says that eternity is in the hearts of all men. Men know that eternity is real.

01:51:53

And so they, they delude themselves with the idea that like, well, simply put, they delude themselves with the idea that everyone goes to some kind of heaven.

01:52:08

Nobody goes to hell because there's no hell. But the Bible paints a very different picture.

01:52:14

It says in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul calls death the last enemy.

01:52:22

And death is an enemy cosmically and redemptively because all men die in Adam.

01:52:33

All men die because of sin. And so sin caused death.

01:52:39

Our sin brought death upon all of us, Adam's sin and our own sin.

01:52:45

So death is a universal enemy. But the same chapter 1

01:52:52

Corinthians 15 says that for the Christian, death is not anything any longer that has to be feared.

01:53:01

1 Corinthians 15, 54, Paul says, death is now swallowed up in victory.

01:53:08

Oh, death, where is your sting? Oh, hell, where is your victory? Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our

01:53:17

Lord Jesus Christ. So only the Christian, the true follower of Jesus Christ can view death no longer as an enemy now, but as a because death, their death will be their graduation day.

01:53:34

It will be the day they are brought into the presence of Christ forever. And so death has been defeated for the

01:53:43

Christian. And I think I want to hasten to say this.

01:53:50

If Christians out there or persons who are honest want to know, how can

01:53:57

I prepare to face this issue more? Right now, they might say, you know,

01:54:03

I have a father or mother that's terminal. I have a child that's terminal, or I have elderly parents

01:54:09

I've always loved and they're on in their years. I know the day of their death is coming. I know my own death is coming.

01:54:18

What should I do? Well, number one, I think we should learn to seriously pray for God to teach us to number our days as Moses prayed in Psalm 90.

01:54:30

Moses prayed, Lord, teach us to number our days that we may apply our hearts to wisdom.

01:54:36

In other words, teach us to view death properly. And only God can teach us that.

01:54:43

Secondly, as much as it goes against the grain of human nature, we should make ourselves think about and meditate upon our brevity in this life.

01:54:54

James in the New Testament says this. He asks this question, what is your life?

01:55:01

And then he answers it. It is a vapor that's here and gone. So James likens every person's life to a vapor.

01:55:10

John Wesley, the great Methodist leader, said this life is only a dressing room for eternity.

01:55:18

And so we need not only prayed for God to teach us to number our days that we could apply our hearts to wisdom.

01:55:25

We need to think about and meditate upon the brevity of life and the reality of death.

01:55:32

Thirdly, I would say we need to be willing to discuss the topic with our pastor, with a close

01:55:40

Christian friend, with our wife, our husband, our children. We need to face the issue and talk about it.

01:55:47

It's like the elephant in the room that we know is there. Nobody wants to discuss it. Well, start discussing it.

01:55:53

It helps immensely to begin to discuss it. Next, I would say, find a biblical book that's been written to view death properly.

01:56:06

And there are many out there. I don't even have one on my mind right now. Ask your pastor what is a good book on death and preparing for death.

01:56:16

And then two other things I would quickly say. Well, three really. Study what the

01:56:22

Bible says about death. Take it seriously and read what the

01:56:28

Bible says about death. Also, it's good to listen to good sermons on death.

01:56:37

This subject needs to be preached on. And taught on in churches.

01:56:42

And it's greatly neglected. And then finally, how do we prepare for our death?

01:56:48

To live life fully for the glory of Jesus Christ and loving others.

01:56:55

That's how you come to the day of your death to have as few regrets as possible.

01:57:03

Amen. Well, I can certainly recommend two sources on good

01:57:13

Christian books on death and on many other issues. Go to solid -ground -books .com.

01:57:25

That's the ministry of Mike Adosh, Solid Ground Christian Books, has a number of wonderful resources.

01:57:32

And I know that Mac Tomlinson is a mutual friend of our dear brother, Mike Adosh. And also,

01:57:38

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service .com.

01:57:46

CVBBS .com is the website for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Well, Pastor Mac, I know that your website is

01:57:54

ProvidenceDenton .org. That's ProvidenceDenton .org.

01:58:01

ProvidenceDenton .org for Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. Any other contact information you care to share? No, that's it.

01:58:09

But I would also mention on our website under our sermons, there is a recent sermon in the past three or four weeks that I preached on death.

01:58:18

It's titled, Viewing Death Biblically. And so, it's a long message.

01:58:25

It deals with this thoroughly. I would welcome your hearers, if their interest in the subject has been served this afternoon, to go hear that sermon.

01:58:39

And in fact, anybody wishing to register for the 2017 Fellowship Conference New England from April 13th through the 16th in Denton, Texas.

01:58:52

Actually, I'm sorry. I misspoke. It wasn't the New England Conference. This is the one in Denton, Texas. You can register at that website

01:59:00

I gave you, ProvidenceDenton .org. ProvidenceDenton .org, and that's for the 2017 Fellowship Conference, April 13th through the 16th in Denton, Texas.

01:59:09

So, that's coming up very soon. So, if you plan to register, go there soon to ProvidenceDenton .org.

01:59:16

Thank you so much, Pastor Mack. I look forward to having you back again on the program, and very frequently. And if you could hang on the line,

01:59:24

I'd like to reschedule you right now, as a matter of fact. I want to thank everybody for listening today, especially those who took the time to write.

01:59:32

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

01:59:39

Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to hearing from you and your question for our guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.