Do Real Leaders Have to Say That They Are The Leader?

That's like a long road where you're constantly working and constantly reminding them along the way.

And I just don't know how you even get there without specifically pulling them aside and telling them, you are not the one in charge.

You know, I am the one in charge. Mommy is the one in charge. You got, you are not.

I like, how do you even get there without saying that? Morning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences.

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrigg and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, do real leaders have to tell others they are the leader?

Now, Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us related to the topic?

Tim Mullett Yes, sure. So, I mean, a lot of Bible verses have come to mind as it relates to this topic, but here's one.

John 13, 13, you call me teacher and Lord, and you're right, for so am I. Tim Okay.

All right. So, how does that relate to this idea of having to tell others, either having to tell others you're the leader or not telling others you're the leader?

How does it relate? John I mean, Jesus is making reference of the fact right there that he is their Lord, right?

So, he's telling them, he's reminding them that they are his, you know, he is their

Lord. I mean, over and over again in the gospels, you'll see him saying, you are my, you know, friends if you do what

I command you, right? A servant is not above his master, right? If they malign me, they'll malign you.

So, over and over and over again, he's reminding them that he is their Lord, right? You know, he'll say, like, which one of you who has a servant will, you know, basically, like, who works all day for him, like, when they go in to eat or whatever, say to their servant, why don't you eat first, right?

Will they not say, you prepare me food first, and then you eat after me, you know?

So, as it is, right, like, when you obey me as your Lord, you should know that you're only doing what you've commanded me.

You know, at the end of time, you know, every knee will bow, tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the

Father. I mean, you know, what a megalomaniac who has to be told he's the leader or something like that.

He's going to get, pardon my blasphemous characterization there of, you know, the opposing side, but I mean, yeah,

I mean, you can't even be saved without confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, right?

And that's what the Bible says over and over again. So, I mean, Jesus is certainly not following these rules in some ways, for sure.

Yeah, just to drive the point home, I just Googled some

Bible verses to see what all came up, and I mean, you know, Isaiah 41 .10,

fear not, for I am with you, be not dismayed, for I am your God. Let's see,

Exodus 3 .14, God said to Moses, I am who I am, and he said, say this to the people of Israel, I am has sent me to you.

Let's see, there was Zephaniah 3 .17,

the Lord your God is in your midst. I mean, you know, imagine, like, we'd probably think it was weird if anyone else spoke the you know, like, hey, you know,

I, your boss, am with you. I, your husband, am with you.

You know, something along, you know, fear not, I, your husband, am with you. Something along those lines.

We might think that's strange, but then God is constantly talking that way to us, right?

And he probably has a pretty good reason for constantly reminding us. I am the Lord your

God who brought you out of Egypt with a mighty hand. Right, right. He's constantly, he's constantly reminding us, right?

So, so, but then for some reason, does it, does it feel weird for, you know, like, like I was mentioning a second ago, for some reason, does it feel weird if your boss is constantly referring to himself as your boss?

Yeah, so there's, right, so what's happening here with this kind of question is that in the minds of many people, like, one of the things we've done is we've redefined leadership in a lot of ways.

So we've redefined leadership to be like servant, service. And, and so what we've done is we've undermined leadership in almost every single, in almost every single way.

And then what happens then in that kind of framework is that you have a lot of people who are basically coming along and saying, hey, yeah, you know, a husband who constantly has to tell his wife that he's the husband, like, he's like, you know, that, that kind of guy who constantly is saying, hey,

I'm the boss, do what I say kind of thing, right? Then he's really like, all that he's doing is just expressing his insecurity about his position, right?

And so the assumption behind the whole discussion is that like, if a guy is a good leader, he's not having to constantly announce that he's the leader in order to twist people's arms to get them to follow him or something along those lines.

And I would say, I mean, yeah, there's obviously some truth to that kind of thing, but I don't trust the way that we're using this observation here.

So meaning like, there is, you could think about how this works in the manosphere or something like that, where if you have a bunch of guys going around, like calling themselves like alphas or something like that, right?

Yeah, the alpha chads. Yeah. I mean, so like if you're, so the idea then is just to say, hey, if you're constantly having to call yourself an alpha male, then you probably aren't, you know, you're probably a beta male at that point, right?

Like, because like you're compensating for something, you know? So by constantly declaring yourself to be the alpha, right?

You're in charge, like a real alpha. So like the idea is like a real alpha male doesn't have to say it, right?

Everyone just falls in line, right? The real alpha walks in the room and everyone else recognizes that he's the alpha.

Right, right, right. Yeah. So, yeah, something like a Chuck Norris joke

I, you know, heard where, you know, Chuck Norris went to a feminist conference or something like that and he came back with his shirt ironed and, you know, a sandwich or something like that.

So, I mean, but yeah, I think there's certainly something, I mean, I've certainly observed those kind of guys in my life before.

I've observed the kind of guys who are constantly, you know, basically trying to present themselves as if they're real tough or something like that.

You know, I mean, if you think in terms of just basic psychology, like the guys who are constantly like saying that they're real tough, you know, or playing sports, you know, the guys who are basically just like saying that they're so good or whatever.

My brother and I, we'd often like chuckle when we see guys like that because we knew that they were talking big and we'll see what happens, you know, on the court or something like that, right?

Like it was almost like a proverb, like if you saw a guy playing ball at a park and he had a bunch of like neat, like nice clothes, right?

Like expensive clothes, you're like, oh man, this guy's gonna be terrible. Like, you know, just like you can imagine the guy going there like dressed like he's just like, you know, with shoes that don't look like they have any scuffs on them and all that, like the newest

Jordans or whatever he's wearing and, you know, the outfit, like the basketball outfit or whatever, you're like, this guy's gonna be terrible.

He's compensating for something here, you know? So, yeah, there is like a kind of, like there is some element of truth here in the sense that like real leaders don't have to constantly broadcast that, right?

So, I mean, there is a kind of charisma that certain leaders have to where like people just naturally fall in line when, you know, a person talks.

Now, I mean, I would say that there's some truth there, but at the same time, on the history of the world that hasn't had significant challenges to their leadership, okay?

I mean, you even think, I mean, you know, that continued the basketball analogy. I mean, Michael, you know, when

Michael Jordan came on the scene or whatever, I mean, he was constantly reminding people that he was

Michael Jordan, right? Then you had a bunch of people who wanted to challenge him or whatever, you know, and he was

Michael Jordan, you know? So, like the thing is, I mean, you can't imagine a leader throughout history that hasn't had their leadership challenged in multiple times in multiple ways.

I mean, that kind of leader who just everyone knows that they're the leader and everyone effortlessly follows the line,

I mean, that's just not the way life works. And like the idea that this all just hinges upon, you know, charisma or something like that, like, so a leader who has to tell other people he's the leader isn't a leader.

It's like, well, no, God obviously appoints people as leaders, right? So, like the idea is,

I mean, like think about this idea in the home, like the husband is the leader regardless of whether or not he is a good leader or a bad leader, right?

He is the leader, that's his position, like his God -given position. I mean, like the standard joke that most men make, like most men of a certain generation make is, you know, their wife will be bossing them around, they'll just kind of look at you and say, yeah, she's the boss, right?

It's like, well, no, actually you're the boss, right? Like you're the boss, God made you the boss and you've abdicated that role, right?

And you may not even recognize it, but, you know, so like the thing is that, yeah, I think that there's plenty of situations that you can imagine where a leader will have to look at his followers and basically remind them of the fact that they're the leader, right?

Because they're either speaking to them in a way that's inappropriate, they're not following their instructions, you know, like they should be following, they're challenging their authority as a leader, and I mean, you know, that's,

I mean, you, I mean, just think about how this thing would go down at different points in history, right?

And I mean, you can imagine like the young buck goes to challenge the leader or whatever and is like, are you ready to actually put, back that up with your, you know, with your skill with the sword, right?

Like this challenge, like I'm the boss, you know, and until you're ready to kill me or whatever, like I'm going to remain the boss, you know, and you better know your place.

And so, I mean, I think that they're like, like the idea, you know, if the assumption is that, you know, true leaders never have anyone buck their authority and never have to remind them that they're a leader,

I mean, it's just not true to life. And certainly God doesn't seem to follow these instructions.

He's constantly reminding the Israelites that he is the Lord, he is their God, right? He's the God who brought them out of Egypt, you know, he's in charge, what he says goes.

And because they're constantly prone to forget, you know, so yeah, I think there's some truth to the original assertion, but I mean, it can get distorted really quick for sure.

So does that mean that someone's a failure as a leader if they have to remind everyone that they're the leader?

Or even if they have to remind everyone a lot of times that they're the leader? I mean,

I think where this kind of statement has some sort of legs is typically in the kind of situation where a person isn't actually in a position of leadership, if that makes sense.

Okay, what do you mean? Like meaning, so like with the guys who are running around saying that they're alpha males or whatever, right?

Sure. Like you can run around and say that you're an alpha male or whatever, but it's like people can look at that and say, hey, it's questionable whether or not anyone actually views you like that.

Like, so you're making a claim to have, like when you're saying you're the alpha, you're basically saying you have a pack, right?

Of people who are following you, right? And so it's questionable whether or not that's actually true and you're just saying it all the time, right?

Yeah, like if you're living in your mom's basement still, but then you're calling yourself the alpha, well, what exactly are you the alpha over?

Right, right. You're the alpha over your basement apartment in your parents' house or something like that.

So, I mean, that would be a situation where a person is making a claim to leadership that is an empty claim, right?

Right. But like in most situations, like the thing where most people, where this comes from is mostly like in husband and wife relationships where people are looking at a husband who's constantly having to say, hey,

I'm in charge here. I'm the leader here. It's like, well, if you're constantly having to say that, then you're not. It's like, well, no, actually he is.

He is regardless. I mean, God put him in that position. Like it's neither here nor there. You know, him asserting it over and over and over again doesn't undermine the nature of his role.

His role is his role, right? It's true regardless, you know? So, you know, now,

I mean, you can imagine an insecure kind of husband who is constantly saying that in order to maybe compensate for his, you know, failure at leadership or something along those lines.

Sure. Yeah. Now, I mean, and if you're constantly having to every day remind, remember, honey, as I go to work, remember that God put me as your husband, right?

Remember that you're commanded to submit to me in everything, right? And so you're going to be tempted today to not want to follow me, but God has ordained me as your head.

I mean, you can imagine like some kind of extreme scenarios like that, but I mean, that's not really realistic, right?

And those aren't the situations where people are actually bringing this up. I mean, the situation where people are bringing this up is where you have a leader whose subordinate is constantly bucking their authority.

At some point, you do have to, I mean, I can imagine plenty of scenarios where a person would just look at him and say, hey, you know,

I mean, I've had these conversations with church members before where I just kind of looked at them and I was like, hey, look, you know,

God has made me an elder of this church and the elders have made this decision, right?

And I understand that you don't like this decision, but it is what it is. The decision has been made, right?

Like the decision has been made and like it doesn't do anyone any good for you to sit here and fight this decision every single day over and over and over again.

I get that you don't like it, but it's not going to change. Like this wasn't just made on a whim, right? Like it's not going to change.

And so like you do have to ask yourself, can I follow the leadership here or am

I going to constantly be fighting it? And if you can't follow the leadership here, then you need to like, you can't just keep on being divisive, right?

You know, so I mean, like there are plenty of situations where like someone is in a legit position of leadership and then it's their responsibility to remind those they're in authority over about like that position, right?

Like and basically ask, like, you know, call them to fall in line, right? So, I mean, there's plenty of situations like that.

And, you know, so I, yeah, I mean, I think certainly like natural leadership, good leadership, you know, isn't going to be just a fight from start to finish.

You know, like if you are, if you are looking for people to appoint into leadership, you do generally want to look like for people who are following this person, right?

And who respect them and who see them as that. But I mean, it's never like an effortless, easy thing. I mean, you know, a prophet's not without an honor, especially in his own hometown.

I mean, often it's like very difficult to like, if you grow up with people your whole life, they develop a certain perspective of you, right?

They've seen you when you're in your diapers or whatever is very difficult for them to suddenly change their perspective.

And over time they can, you know, and I've seen plenty of examples like that. But yeah, so it's obviously complicated for sure.

But yeah, I think there's like in situations where God has actually made a person a leader, there might be any number of times where a person has to remind the people under their, you know, under their care or whatever that yes,

God put me in this position and you need to quit fighting it, right? Yeah, it makes me, it makes me think a lot of interacting with children, you know, so like with Mike, with my kids, for example, there's plenty of times where my, my kids will, whether they realize this is what they're doing or not, that they will boss me around or they'll boss my wife around.

And I have to, I have to look at them and say, Hey, you're not the one in charge.

I'm the one who's in charge. You know, you don't get, you don't get to tell mommy what to do. Daddy gets to tell mommy what to do.

You don't, you don't get to tell anybody what to do, you know? And, and I mean, it's, and it's not like you say at one time and all of a sudden they've got it nailed down perfectly.

I mean, it's just something that happens over and over again until eventually they get really good at, and you know, most, if not all areas and all sorts of situations and scenarios, they go from being someone who is constantly trying to buck that authority.

Like you were mentioning earlier, they go from that to some, you know, Lord willing, someone who recognizes,

Hey, I have authority over me. I don't have a right to tell them what to do. I need to be obedient to the things that they tell me to do and do them to the best of my ability with joy in my heart.

Right. And that's the goal that you're training them towards. But then that's like a long road where you're constantly working and constantly reminding them along the way.

And, and I just don't know how you even get there without specifically pulling them aside and telling them you are not the one in charge.

You know, I am the one in charge. Mommy is the one in charge. You got, you are not.

How do you even get there without saying that? I mean, God is constantly doing that to us.

Yeah. Here's another, here's another one. Psalm 46, 10, be still and know that I am

God. Oh, but he keeps going. I will be exalted among the nations.

I will be exalted in the earth. So, he's not even saying, just saying he's a leader. He's saying

I am the leader and I will be worshipped. Right. I mean, every knee will bow.

Every tongue will confess. You can't even be saved without acknowledging Jesus is Lord. And, you know, he constantly says, you know, call me teacher and Lord.

And you're right for, you know, so I am. So, I mean, I think, yeah, this is just a, like there's some,

I get that there's some truth to what's being communicated there. Yeah. I do think there is a kind of like leaders lead and you can observe who the real leaders are by observing who's following.

Right. And who takes initiative and who everything else. At the same time, God, you know,

God does put people in leadership positions and people have great capacity to fight their leadership positions.

I mean, like, think about, you know, Aaron and Miriam fighting Moses's leadership at that point. Right. And God, you know, stepping in to remind them, you know, that Moses is in charge.

Right. Do I, you know, with if there's a prophet, you know, I'll speak to him, riddle riddles and not like, so, you know, my prophet with Moses, I speak face to face, face.

I mean, Jesus constantly had attacks on his leadership throughout the whole entirety of his ministry. Paul constantly had these super apostles who were undermining him and got, you know,

Paul was constantly reminding the churches that he is an apostle of God. Right. Not by the will of man, but by God, you know, so there's obviously attacks on leadership in every single area of life and every area of history, you know, and part of that is responding to that by reminding them of the position that you have, which you're tempted to forget.

So, yeah, I think like what like what's happening, though, in as it relates to marriages, you basically have a situation where like a husband is kind of like a hypothesis, like a hypothetical leader.

Right. Like a hypothetical leader. He just can't ever acknowledge. He can't ever act like it. Right. And then if his wife doesn't respect him, then it must be some failure in his leadership at that point.

And I would say that, yeah, I mean, yeah, there's probably some of that, but you know what?

Like we're sinful too, you know, so like it all kind of reduces to the, you know, what woman wouldn't want to love a husband who loves her like Christ loves the church?

It's like, well, we tried to kill him, man. You know, I don't know what to tell you. He loved us like Christ loves the church and we tried to kill him.

So I think, I think there's a sin problem. Her desire will be for her husband, but he'll have to rule over her.

Right. Like there's a war between the sexes. And I don't, I don't think it's that simple. You know, a husband has to believe that God has put him in a position of authority and there will be times where he needs to remind everyone in a room that he's in that position of authority because they're not acting like it.

Right. And so that'll be true of his wife. That'd be true of their kids. That'd be true. I mean, there's plenty of times where a pastor has to look at someone and say,

Hey, look, God put me in this position. And, you know,

Paul talks about Timothy, don't let anyone despise you for your youth. Right. Like, so there's, there's times where you say,

Hey, God put me in this position and it's wrong to disrespect me. Like when you disrespect me, you disrespect, but God.

And so, yeah, I, yeah, there's definitely a place for that for sure. Well, I think that's a good place for us.

To wrap up the conversation on. So thank you for answering all my questions there, Tim. Um, you know, we want to thank all you guys for listening to us weekend and week out supporting us, uh, through the videos, through the podcast episodes, through all the things that we're posting on social media, interacting with us there.

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