Will Spencer: The Renaissance of Men is Now! Biblical Masculinity is Alive Feminism is Dead! DMW#217

Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from an undisclosed location, Dead Men Walking starts now. Welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking podcast.

Thanks for listening, thanks for sharing with a friend, thanks for checking us out at dmwpodcast .com where you can support the show, find out more about me and what we have going on. We've got our snarky merch there as well too, just sold another Wynum, Dynum, Romans, Nynum shirt today.

Seems to be a good seller, gets the conversation started. But first I want to talk to you about our sponsor, K &K Furnishings. You heard me talk about them before, love these brothers in the Lord. Two guys started a furnishing business, 70 years pastoral experience between the both of them and they decided, you know, we understand budget constraints, we understand places of worship, nonprofits, business.

Heck, even if you're working remotely from home and need to renovate that space, they got it all. Chairs, lamps, seating, equipment, sound, whatever you need, you need to go talk to these guys. If you're in Michigan, Indiana or Ohio, they will come to you for a personal consultation.

If you're outside of those three states, they'll definitely jump on a video call, Zoom call and let you know exactly what you need, walk you through that. It's kandkfurnishings .com, two reformed brothers in the Lord.

Love those guys, go support them if your church or your business is in the need. They work with over 200 vendors nationwide. So they ship anywhere and they get you the best prices and give you quality furnishings.

All right.

And we thank them for being a sponsor. Now that we have the business out of the way, as they say, yeah, it's been a good week for me. Usually I chop it up a little bit, but I want to get right into it.

When we have a guest, we try to jump right into it. They don't want to hear me talk about my personal life for 10 minutes, so.

Do what you got to do, man.

Yeah, and that voice you just heard is Will Spencer. Will Spencer, he's an entrepreneur, traveler and storyteller. His path has taken him from Stanford University to the dot-com boom and through 33 countries on six different continents.

Along the way, his passion for personal transformation led him into the world of men's personal development, which he calls the Renaissance. He hosts a podcast of the same name called The Renaissance of Men, where he conducts extended interviews with thought leaders working towards a great reconciliation of the sexes in Christ.

It's Will Spencer, everyone. How you doing, Will?

Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

No problem. I had become aware of your podcast last year. We'll talk about how long you've been doing it. Then it went on one of those auto-download backburners where I have 27 other podcasts to catch up on.

I do apologize for that. Then we did the reform podcast bracket on Twitter. You were included in that. You did very well in that. A lot of people supported you. I went, oh, yeah, I forgot. I got that on my backburner.

I got to start listening to that. I had so many people on Twitter just saying, great podcast, should win it all. This guy is awesome. I started listening. I went, yeah, this is a quality podcast. I had to have you on and talk about it a little bit.

Can you tell us why did you start the podcast? How long has it been going on, and what's the goal of it? I know I did an overview right there a couple minutes ago. Give us a little more in-depth on that.

I started the podcast in September 2020. I think that was like wave two or three of podcast creation. I originally started it. Now, I wasn't a Christian at the time. I had been baptized, but I wasn't being discipled in any way.

It was during COVID, so the churches were shut down. That was a whole process, finding a church during that time. What I wanted to do with the podcast was I had become aware of this kind of global rebirth of masculinity.

A whole bunch of content creators, YouTubers, authors who were talking about masculinity from all these different perspectives. I wanted to create a podcast where I let them all talk so that my listeners could hear the things that I had heard, all the different influences that I had taken in.

What happened over time is sanctification started to take hold. I started having more and more Christian speakers and thought leaders on. The podcast over time, over the past three and a half years now, has gone more towards Christian virtue, masculinity, and femininity, and bringing the sexes back together, sort of a post-feminist age.

Wow, that's very interesting. You're probably the first person that I've had on in four years. We started April 2020. That probably started without the idea of it being the worldview being either Reform, Calvinistic, or Christian.

Almost everyone I've talked to outside of some congressmen and senators that have a podcast have started it because of that. That's very interesting. Were you kind of wrestling with that whole wave of Joe Rogan had been around, and he's kind of talking alpha male stuff.

Who's the guy that got arrested over in Andrew Tate? Is that who it is?

Andrew Tate, yeah.

Andrew Tate. All those guys that are kind of like Jordan Peterson was getting big with, hey, make your bed and take care of your own self, guys. We had this thing rolling around in 2020, I think you're right, where even in the secular world it was a very big movement.

And then the Christian world kind of responded to that a little bit, I think, more in the Reformed world of, well, this is what biblical Christianity looks like. I'm a Reformed Presbyterian, and our church has a conference every year, and we did it on biblical masculinity.

And I was one of the breakout speakers, and they said, hey, we want to go through and analyze all these guys that Christians are following instead of maybe the Bible or what Christ says. They're going to the Joe Rogans, the Andrew Tates, the Jordan Petersons.

It was very interesting because it's a very big subject over the last four or five years of masculinity and biblical, even biblical masculinity, or even in secular masculinity. They're fighting that fourth wave feminism.

So it's a very interesting subject for you to start a podcast on, and it's done very well. So anyone who's listening to this, pause this, go listen and download and subscribe to the Renaissance of Men and then come back here.

But is that how you started? Did you kind of start more focusing on just more like the secular side of being a man and what's psychologically and philosophically and physically good for you? Was that kind of the mindset to begin with?

Yeah, very much so. So I had discovered men's initiations in 2013, and that was a big awakening for me. I went on a weekend men's initiation. It was new age. It was young yin. I was living in the Bay Area at the time.

But it sort of made me aware that there were more men than just me struggling with the question, what does it mean to be a man? I was shocked to find out that this organization had initiated like 60 ,000 men worldwide.

And so that got me into men's groups in San Francisco. Then I did a bunch of traveling overseas to kind of test myself in various situations. And that's when I discovered the manosphere in like 2018. So that was when I discovered like Rolo Tomasi, who you may have heard of, Jack Donovan, the 21 convention, those sort of guys.

And, of course, Jordan Peterson was becoming very popular at the time. And so I discovered that there were a whole bunch of men around the world talking about men's inner lives, like emotions, memories, and feelings.

That was the men's initiation. And then I discovered there were a whole bunch of men talking about men's outer lives, so like personal finance, fitness, status. And that was the manosphere. And so I was looking at guys talking about men's inner lives and then guys talking about men's outer lives, and they didn't seem to know about each other and they didn't seem to be talking to each other.

And I had gotten a lot of benefit from both of them. And so I started the podcast because I wanted to have an opportunity for both these halves to kind of talk. Now, as I said, I had just gotten baptized.

And if you listen to the podcast over the past three and a half years, you can actually hear my worldview evolution almost episode by episode as I start discovering that Christianity actually has all the answers for masculinity that I had been looking for.

Because the mythopoetic men's movement, the inner work guys, were rooting things in more of like a psychological framework, like you find truth within yourself. And then you had sort of like the secular mannister guys like the Andrew Tates.

He was sort of a side character at the time. They didn't really have much of a worldview theological foundations. It was like get rich, get laid is kind of the way that they would think about things. Maybe some of them talk about fatherhood.

Or they would root masculinity in like evolution. So you had like psychology and evolution, and those are both kind of shifting sands. But when I discovered Christianity, started reading the Bible, started listening to people like Michael Foster and the men around him, I was like, oh, this is actually the foundation that we can root masculinity on transcendently.

Oh, and that has implications for femininity and marriage and the family. And so you can hear that evolution take place over the course of my podcast as I've become a radical right-wing Christian extremist.

Right.

You and I, brother, we're all on all kinds of domestic terror lists by being white, Christian, and conservative.

Yeah.

I posted Crisis King on Twitter so much for that.

Oh, yeah.

We're Nazis now. That's what some people say. If you say that, you're a Nazi.

I am.

Crisis King.

Yeah.

I think we had that long before anyone tried to co-op it. But with that being said, so what was the big shift for you? Obviously, saved, regenerated, new heart, heart of stone, heart of flesh. Obviously, we're not discounting that.

But I'm saying when you were looking at those systems in the secular world, was it basically, hey, these are shifting sands, but over here I have kind of a foundation on which we can build. And you saw that the biblical masculinity described throughout the Old and New Testament was kind of very foundational and covered all that.

Is that kind of what I'm hearing?

Yeah.

It was also an encounter with, as I started reading scripture, and I encountered who Christ was beyond the picture that I had been fed of him and sort of my liberal atheist kind of new age kind of world, to actually see his behaviors and read his speech, see the way that he spoke to his disciples and spoke to the Pharisees.

I was like, wait a minute. This is sort of not what I've been told about who Jesus was. Here's this, you know, the God man, right? And, of course, reading the Gospel of John and getting the whole picture and starting to listen to more theological content as I'm going through my own kind of sanctification process, I'm realizing that here's everything that I have been looking for.

It was in a sense right in front of me the whole time, but it was kind of the end of the journey as well. So hopefully that answers your question.

Yeah.

So what this is kind of, you know, we have a few questions we went over pre-show, but I'm going to go off the path here since this is about kind of your journey. And I'm interested in this because every time I have someone on too that kind of gets into testimonial and stuff too, they always go, we need more of those, we need more of those, you know, because testimonies are so cool as well.

But it sounds like, what was the character that you had as kind of a leftist and an atheist of Jesus versus the actual character of Jesus that you found in Scripture? Can you kind of tell me what you kind of thought Jesus was when you were outside of the Christian worldview and then what you came to find when you actually read through Scripture?

Yeah.

So just a little bit of background on my own testimony. I grew up a liberal atheist. Jewish bar mitzvah went to Israel. So that was a big part of my background. That's been a big thing on Twitter this week.

But I was, there was never any real religious grounding in that.

There was never any theological perspective.

It was just a bunch of stuff rituals that we did. And so when I went to college, I went to college in the Bay area. And of course, Northern California, major new age kind of hub. And so then I got into Eastern mysticism and all those kinds of like forms of spirituality.

So I never really had between both of those. I never really had a great exposure to who Jesus was, especially not the Christian message. I don't think I ever met anybody, at least not so far as I'm aware that could give me a proper apologetic.

Right.

So, but from that world, I kind of observed that, that a couple of different things about Christianity. One is that Jesus was some, a great wisdom teacher. He had a bunch of great wisdom to share.

Right.

And he was generally like very, very peaceful, you know, maybe pacifist, you know, the, maybe the meek and mild, but I never really fully bought that, you know, I never really fully bought that nice guy image, but like there was a, there was a detached, I had an image, I guess, of this detached kind of ethereal Jesus.

Maybe he's glowing. You know what I mean? And, and, and the, you know, the phrases judge, not list, you be judged like all the fortune cookie kind of stuff that's, that's around there. And then from inside and then from inside the new age, it's more of like a Christ consciousness thing that Jesus was a man who achieved a higher level of spiritual awareness.

So that would be kind of the image, the image that I, that I had originally.

So who did you find when you went, when the Lord graciously saved you and you started reading through scripture and supporting that with writings and things like that of what biblical masculinity is, what did you find about Christ and the Bible that was different from what you thought or specifically in masculinity?

I would, I would ask just because that's kind of where we're going with this episode.

Yeah. I think the thing that struck me first was the way that Jesus spoke to his disciples, the way that he spoke to the apostles, it was like, are you guys really not getting this? Like we've talked about this.

Like he's the way that he's so forcefully speaking to them, right? Like guys figured out, like, come on, we've talked about this. Are you slow of heart, slow of understanding, understand, like, you know, and there's a way in which he's so confrontational, but of course, in a loving and direct way with the people, with the men that are closest to him, almost like a leader and they're still not getting it, you know?

And that, I remember that being really striking. I remember when I was reading the gospel of John and seeing the, you know, the confrontation after the episode with Lazarus and getting to feel this, this entire story is climatically, climatically building up to this moment where Lazarus was raised from the dead.

And it's like, Oh no, that did it, you know, and you can just feel the shift, right? And so it was kind of those and seeing how direct he was with the Pharisees, you know, liars, hypocrites, right? Whitewashed tombs, all of that.

It was, it was so different from the picture that I had had. And also the way that he would speak gently, gently, but also very clearly like to the woman at the well, right? There wasn't this ethereal walking on, walking on air kind of picture.

He was very grounded, very real individual, right? If you, if you encounter the language for what it is. And then what really blew my mind was, I think it was an Isaiah 53 where he was a man of no special magic, majesty or beauty that we would look on him.

Like he wasn't this like long haired hippie kind of handsome guy, just an average looking dude. Jesus could have looked like the guy on the bus that blew my mind. It was like that, that, that, that God would, would take an S such an average kind of form is so challenging to our notions of human beauty and how we look up to actors.

And, you know, you think of, you think of like Mel Gibson and Russell Crowe, like they have this chiseled features, you know, it was like, that might not have been what he looked like. And so all these things together painted a picture of a very real man, the God man, but still a very real man who people worshiped as well.

And so that just completely began rewiring my brain. I mean, it even though, I mean, of course, if people talk about the temple, you know, the turning over the money changers and the temple, even that, that was kind of secondary to the things that impacted me.

Yeah. I'm kind of tracking with you because I have the same thing and I think, you know, evangelical Western Christianity has kind of feminized Jesus in both worship and preaching. We've seen the blonde haired blue eyed Jesus growing up our whole entire lives.

And especially in my great aunt's dining room, she was a very, very strict Catholic and she had the velvet Jesus, you know, a velvet painting. So even growing up in the church, I said the sinner's prayer at seven and the Lord saved me at 24, even growing up in church, I had this idea of, well, Jesus was just kind of this kind of hippie kind of pacifists, same thing.

You're saying. And what I found striking, what I actually started reading the Bible for myself was that he was a very well rounded man in all areas. Yes. He could be very compassionate and gentle, but he also called out hypocrisy.

He was a carpenter. He built things. He, he was a leader. He talked sternly. He used sarcasm. He used humor. He was patient, but yet stern. I mean, there's all these examples where you go, Oh, this is what a well-balanced man looks like in just about every area of their life.

And when I say man, I'm saying God, man, you know, but it's really crazy how we get a character, even of those in church, even if we're sitting under preaching, that is not accurate. You can get a character of, of Christ and even masculinity, just by how your, how your pastor is exegeting the scriptures and preaching and, and how he views Jesus.

And I, and I agree with you too. I think God totally understood how quickly we are taken in by stature and beauty and looks and things like that, because I mean, that was the main thing with Saul, right?

The first king of Israel. Oh, but he's a head taller than everyone else. And we want a King. And he was very becoming, you know, as a, as a warrior and a man and the Bible doesn't tell the heights of very many people, Goliath, Saul, and maybe one or two others.

So it was very important that they left that detail in there, that the Israelites were kind of smitten with this character of a King instead of wanting the one true King. So the fact that Christ came down and was very, very likely an average looking kind of, you would pass them on the streets in Jerusalem or Galilee or Capernaum and go, yeah, it doesn't look like anything special.

I think that's God's sense of humor as well, too. I think he understands. Oh yeah. I'll show you how I'm going to take human form in, you know, in a vessel that it is so unassuming, it really is going to have to be an act of faith on my part.

And when I say my, I mean, God's part, you know, to open your eyes to what I'm talking about. But yeah, that's good stuff. So yeah, that's, that's a crazy journey because and thank God you escaped it because Eastern mysticism, new ageism, Christ consciousness, still very popular.

We're seeing a resurgence in that since the late eighties and mid nineties. We've had quite a few converted mysticists and new agers on here who were, you know, one of them Dorian virtue, gosh, she was making a couple million dollars a month off of her books and her website and the Lord radically saved her.

And she, she saw the error of her ways of what she was doing. But so to, to come out of that, praise God that he gave you those, you know, eyes to see. But I want to talk about masculinity a little bit because that's what the podcast is about.

Not strictly, but I mean, you're, you know, the Renaissance of men. So in the podcast too, before we get into it, do you kind of, what are the subjects? Is it just like masculinity in the sense of what a man should be?

Or is it, it kind of touches every tentacle of male ship.

I would say that I try to touch a lot of different aspects of it. And I also, some of my most popular episodes, I interview women. Now, obviously I don't interview them about masculinity and interview them about femininity.

And some of them asked me like, are you expecting me to talk about masculinity? No, no, no. Like I want you to talk about femininity in the family because you can't really talk about what it means to be a man without talking to women.

Right.

And you can't really talk to women about what it means to women without talking to men. Right. Like we're not designed to be alone. Right. As we know. So, so I touch on a lot of different aspects, the inner aspects of masculinity, some of the outer aspects, you know, in terms of I do talk about like personal finance, but I talk about Bitcoin is what I tend to focus on.

I talk about fitness sometimes leading a family. Right.

But I,.

What I really strive for is rather than single subject kind of interviews, I try to do more well-rounded character portrayals of the, of the people that I have on and the projects that that they're working on.

And so for me, it's more about like, who is this person? What are they about? How can I help surface the best aspects of them and, and what they're working on so we can have a real conversation, let's say about their character.

And so I try to, I try to show rather than tell through the podcast.

Yeah, no, that's good. And that reflects in some of the episodes that I've been listening to over the last few weeks also very well produced the audio. You know, I've said this many times, you can have the best subject and be the smartest person in the world.

If your audio is not pleasing to these musicians, heirs, I'm turning off that podcast. I don't know what it is. It's like, you know, nails on a board if there's echo and lag. And so very well produced on the audio too.

Just throw that out there. That's just for all my audio geeks out there that are listening. Go listen to his podcast. It sounds very well too.

By the way, I did the first 150 episodes myself because I have an audio engineering background. So when I sat down to record my first podcast, I was like, I know microphones and data. I never thought I would use that again.

I thought I learned all that stuff. I'm like, I'm never going to need this. And then I sat down. I was like, wait a minute. I know all about this stuff.

All right. There you go. Either you were an audio engineer or something, somebody was doing something cause it sounds very, very good. So, so why is masculinity even important? Why is a podcast like this important?

Why are we having an episode about this? I mean, we can get into how secular society is attacking masculinity in general, but why is biblical masculinity important? What do you, what do you think?

You can think of biblical masculinity as if we're thinking of the human body, biblical masculinity would be like the bones that give structure and protection gives structure to the body and protection to the vital organs.

So if you just take away the bones out of your body, you just turn and just kind of like this loose, floppy jello on the ground, not really able to protect anything or go anywhere. Right. Maybe you're still there, but you're not really, you're not really doing much in the same way.

If you're just a, if your bones without organs and flesh and skin, you're just, you're just dry bones. So you need both the flesh, you know, over the, over the body and you need the bones within. And that's what biblical masculinity is to the body of Christ.

It's the bones, it's the, it's the legs, it's the arms, it's especially the spine. And, and that's how I conceive of it. So the, the question is like, why is, why is biblical masculinity important to asking me is like, why is your skeleton important?

You know, not that I, not that, you know, I know that you know that, but that's, that's what I mean is like, it's a, well, but people don't seem to recognize that this is the case. Like, Oh, we don't need our skeleton.

You know, so you get, you get even jellyfish. That's how you get, that's how you get even jellyfish.

Yeah. So true. And you know, it's, it's tough because we've seen we're now in fourth or I don't know, maybe fifth wave feminism, right? They keep coming out with a new generation of feminism, which is getting very interesting now since the secular world says that men can have periods and be pregnant and breastfeed and all these things.

So you know,.

There's a wreck on the waves thing, by the way, I think, but continue your question if, but I can speak to that specifically.

No, go ahead. Let's talk about the, yeah. Talk about it.

Yeah. So, so I, I'm not entirely sure that there are actually waves of feminism. I'm not, I'm not sure. Okay. It's not, it's, it's not to say that there aren't distinct phases where different topics have come to the forefront.

But if you, if you look at, if you can go to Wikipedia and you can look up the definition of radical feminism, this is their own words, right? The way that the radical feminists describe, describe feminism as they say, men's oppression of women is a trans historical phenomenon, meaning it's across all of history and it's the model that all other forms of oppression are built on.

So men fundamentally, fundamentally, for all of history have oppressed women. And that oppression is used as the model for all other forms. So racism, right. Is a good example, right. Is that, is that male patriarchy is the model of oppression used for all other forms of oppression.

And so what they're making is a fundamental claim about the nature of reality itself, that men fundamentally, that's patriarchy, men fundamentally oppress women. And if you look at feminism, even back to the first wave of feminism, they were saying similar things that the nuclear family oppressed women, women had to have, had to be free to vote and all these different things and be free of particularly sexual restraints on sexual behavior.

If you go back to like the French revolution and stuff. So I don't think that there actually are waves of feminism. I think it's one singular infection that has become more virulent and lethal ever since it began.

That's my take on it.

Yeah. I think I'm using that word kind of in that context of waves or phases or their, their idea, the principal idea has always been the same, but it's now taking on different forms and maybe we can even say it's matured.

It's come to full fruition of what they originally have stated. Right. 75 or, you know, a hundred years ago it was well vote in, you know, be able to go to place of business on Sunday, just like a man 20 years later, it's well, now it's the workforce and then now it moves into not only are we equal, but there's no difference between the two of us.

We saw that starting to come out in the eighties and nineties. Now, now I'm saying now we're coming to full fruition to where they're turning in on themselves and actually degrading and hating biological women by sex to where, okay, now a man can be a woman and things like that.

So now we've gone so far into this feminist movement that it's now kind of starting to turn in on itself, which is insane because I don't understand, you know, I do a lot of stuff in politics. I do a lot of well, I used to do lobbying and things like that, but now just advising on bills and things, but I just see the far left how, I don't know how it can be sustained because it's constantly folding in on itself, especially this thing with masculinity.

You know, men are, men are evil. Men are bad. Men are oppressive. They're horrible. They're useless. We don't need them. And you go, well, biologically you need them to, to continue the human race.

They build up on that. They're working on that. Yeah.

They're working on that. But I mean, we, we, we build almost everything. We outwork the fair sex. You know, we die earlier. We, we do the dangerous job. The whole society has been built by men and that's not to say anything bad about women, but I do believe they are the weaker sex in the sense of ones that need to be protected.

As the Bible says, that doesn't mean they're less than human. We're all image bearers of God. We all have value.

The heart is weaker than the bones, but it's not less important, but please continue.

Yeah. So, so my thought is too, is how can this keep going on? I feel like we're going down this train track and we see the, we see the brick wall, you know, the cave, the cave coming up, the solid wall.

And what are we going to do? Just paint, you know, in the cartoons, paint a black circle on it and hope it turns into a tunnel. It just feels like you have Christians over here going, oh no, this, this is what the sexes are for.

These are their roles. This is how God created it. This is how it works best. And by the way, here's a lot of proof on how it works best. Some of your top achievers in both work and school and things are kids from nuclear families with one mom and one dad and you know, all these things, all the statistics back it up.

And it's just kind of crazy to me that we're just going to, what, throw that all out the window and say, no, that doesn't matter. It's, it's just very frustrating for me. And I'm wondering if that kind of motivated you to, to focus on that or what you even think about that, of how you see a whole political ideology kind of wanting to destroy one sex or at least demean it to the point of irrelevance when in fact it's, you know, males are very relevant and needed in this world.

Well, it's, it's, unfortunately a very serious problem that goes back to the garden and in the garden in Genesis three 16, God cursed Eve. He cursed the serpent. He cursed Adam as well, but Christ even says your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you and your desire will be for is only used one other time in the Bible.

And that's in reference to Cain and Abel where God says to Cain, sin will desire to have to master you and you must rule over it. So what is woven into the fabric of women through the curse is the desire, the constant desire to usurp male authority that is woven into the fabric of every woman and has been woven into the fabric of every woman since the beginning of time and will be so until we achieve resurrected bodies or we're in glory.

And the thing is what feminism has done for the past 150 years,.

It's,.

It's taken that desire to usurp male authority and injected steroids into it. It's, it's the, it's the, it's the curse on overdrive. And the, the, the problem, this is the enormous problem is that the American evangelical church does not have the ability to call women to repentance for their sin.

It does not, will not, and often cannot call women to repentance for their sin and let them know that they have the sin of wanting you to usurp male authority and to repent because their souls are at stake.

Men have our sin as well. Our sin is passivity. Adam was passive in the garden and now we have to, by the sweat of our brow, we will eat bread. Life is a constant struggle that we now have to fight and we, we resist the urge to take on one more battle.

So our temptation as men is constantly to be passive. That is our sin that we have to crucify and repent of. And plenty of men have and do that's, that is our, I don't know if I would call it our root sin, but that's certainly the specific curse of men.

Women's curse is to usurp male authority. These curses interact. They, they reinforce each other in a vicious, in a vicious cycle and we are both individually responsible for them. So women who say, well, I will, I'll be, I'll be respectful when he's loving.

It doesn't work that way. God calls you to be respectful for your husband as a command, independent of how your husband is behaving outside of leading you into sin. And the American evangelical church does not have the ability to call women to repentance for this.

And so instead you have rebellious women, usurping the authority of their husbands. You have particularly rebellious girls under the age of 30 who have decided that they are, they've been discipled by their mothers who work crypto feminists and they're deciding to pursue careers and fulfillment outside of the home.

And then they reach 30 or 35 is like, well, I guess there's a pop out some kids time for me to get married. It's like, no, you've been in rebellion from God for years. And the church won't do anything about that.

And so, you know, yes, American society is going over the cliff and it's going over the cliff, particularly demographically because no one's here holding women to account. We don't have a problem holding men to account.

And I tend to apology at church and here in Phoenix with pastor Jeff Durbin, we had a guest pastor. He's from Germany. Riemenschneider I think is his name. I want to make sure to get it right. He did an hour long sermon, full throated, you know, the belligerence, the manly belligerence of Christ where he challenged men from the pulpit in a loud voice with a German accent, rather a rather, a rather strong German accent to be better men for an hour.