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All right, well, I'm joined here today by Kyle, Kyle Hessler. I met Kyle at the Fight Laugh Feast Conference last year. I don't believe I met you prior, maybe I did. Briefly. But you're a busy man. That's right.
I'm a very busy person. Anyway, but no, Kyle reached out to me, we chat every now and then on Twitter and stuff like that. After the video I did last week about Right Now Media, I had a person, a YouTube subscriber who asked me my opinion on it, and I just looked into it briefly and gave you just sort of my thoughts based on the very snazzy, winsome video that they put out about the content that they produce.
And it didn't look, it looked to me like it was probably no bueno. But anyway, Kyle wanted to give some context because I guess he used to work for them and knew a little bit more about it. So Kyle, welcome to the show, man.
Oh, it's always, it's a pleasure to be a guest here, man. You know that for sure. Oh, no, absolutely. But so why did you, why did you feel like you wanted to reach out and give extra context? So I thought your first video was great.
And like, you know, this isn't like, I don't think they're, Right Now Media is like necessarily a Trojan horse per se. But I do think it's something to be mindful that, you know, if you're looking for marks of a church, like, is this a, is this a church I should be going to, you know, it might be one of those things that it's maybe in a gray area, like, okay, they have Right Now Media, is this a good sign?
Sure. You know, and don't look too far into it, because it could be one thing where maybe they just signed up to it in their legacy account or something like that. But I would say for our people, you know, rowdy Christian types, we really should be mindful of the fact of these, these, there should be warning signs for things.
And so I just wanted to give a couple, you know, I don't think this would be as long as your first podcast, but maybe just answer a couple of the things that you talked about that you didn't know for sure.
Sure. Yeah. Just kind of go from there. So. Well, no. And honestly, like, that sounds very similar to what I was thinking. And again, I didn't work there. I had no real context for it. And my thought was, is, you know, it's probably like not something that's worth making a huge deal over in isolation.
But you know, it's not, it's not necessarily a great sign. So chances are, there's probably other things that you're already concerned about if you're really concerned with right now media. So one of the things that you had talked offline, you know, you'd mentioned to me that, that there, I had asked a question on whether or not like a pastor could pick and choose certain content because my impression was that probably some of the content is fine.
And some of it is probably not. So, you know, just having the whole package, does that mean that you get exposure to all the bad stuff too? So you could shed some light on that. So, so when I worked there, I was starting to come into like more Presbyterian lines of thinking.
And I remember looking up and I, I cannot confirm this, but I remember, I think I looked up Doug Wilson and I think there was like one video thing from him. Now, I had a master account, which means I, I just, I had two accounts and I didn't know this at the time, but I had an account as being an employee there.
And I had access to everything. And so I remember, look, I didn't use it a lot, but I do remember that there was like a couple of niche things that I would look up. Like, I think there was some, it was either Doug Wilson or John MacArthur.
And I just laughed because those were who I was listening to all the time and, and pretty much still do. But, but they, you know, they'd have like one video series on there. And I just went, when we talked about, I wanted to double check this.
So I still have an account through my church though. So this was through an old, old big Eva kind of church and none of that is available. So now one of the selling points, so let me, let me give you a little background.
And when I worked there, what my job was to do. So I'd come in there. Um, I was on a call floor. So my job was to just be on an auto dialer and read a script and, um, Talk to church secretaries, which wasn't always the best experience.
And my job was to get in front of the pastor and just say, you know, or frankly, the decision maker and just say, you know, here's who we are. Here's what we offer. Can we schedule a video presentation?
So my job was to really just get them to agree to do like a 30 minute presentation through, you know, zoom or something like that, which that has its own set of funny stories, but you know, that's not for now.
Um, but so that's what I would do. And so I'm not really hard selling them. And then in the sales pitch, one of the things that we tell them is like, as the pastor, you can decide how ecumenical you want to be and the way I'm giving them a lot of grace in that I'm saying that I think they probably think that this is a good idea to be like, look, if you're, you know, they wouldn't put it these terms, but if you're for pedo baptism or more, it was, it was more things like, you know, if you're dispensational church and you don't want to have, um, you know, any post mill or anything like that, email, um, you can just limit that.
So they do that. And you can look at that both ways. I think on a gracious side, you can be like, okay, well, yeah, they maybe don't want to do that. On another end, it's kind of underhanded and kind of sneaky, you know?
So, well, I mean, yeah, I can see positives to that, but, but also, yeah, I, I hear what you're saying. Okay, cool. So, so if you really like right now media, but you know, you, you, you feel like, uh, you know, Doug Wilson's the devil you can totally, you can just totally block the one series that he did a long time ago that they're probably all very embarrassed that he did.
Yeah. And, and, and to be clear, like if he, if I, if this was eight years ago, when I did, when I looked that up, so it was either, like I said, it was either J it was somebody, it was somebody that was kind of in our circles that we all appreciate for the most part.
Um, and to be fair, I don't think it's something that they themselves produced. So that's the one part that I don't know for sure how it's functioning, but when I was there, they did some production, but a lot of it was, they would just buy the series or co-opt with them.
And so, you know, that, that kind of is an interesting little thing to it too, but not really for the purposes of our conversation. So, so basically like, I guess that kind of confirms my initial thought, like, you know, in isolation, just the, if you hear right now, media, that doesn't necessarily mean anything definitive.
It could mean that there's some content there that they like, and you know, that's it, um, there's obviously probably, well, let me ask you this. So looking back at your time there, I mean, obviously, you know, you're, you're you and I probably agree on, you know, 90 of, of, of theology.
Yeah. How much of this stuff is like, it's okay. How much of it is like, you want to watch it at all? Like, I would say most of it's at best squishy, you know, squishy. Like, yeah. I mean, like, it's like, sure.
It's true. How does this actually impact my life or what do I do with this? But a lot of it, I would characterize most of their stuff as the kind of. This Bible study, um, the Bible study we've all been part of, which is let's open, uh, John 13 and talk about this and then you wrap it up.
Now, what do you think about this? How does this apply to your life? You know, it's, it's that kind of stuff. So it's not actually talk, you know, there's some good Bible teaching in it, but a lot of the stuff is more, how does this impact you and your marriage?
How does this impact your work? Which, you know, there's a time and place for that stuff. But, but if, you know, this is kind of a larger point, but my, my perspective on Bible studies is it really shouldn't be saying much about you.
It should be saying about what God says about you, you know, so a lot of their stuff is that. Got it. So this would be like getting a subscription to like a video version of gospel coalition. There's some stuff in there, but it's like, you know, do you really need to spend, you know, you know, five minutes reading an article?
You probably just as well without it. You know what I mean? Like it's not that big a deal. I would, I would say, and if you want to kind of characterize, I think the majority of their plans. Now, again, this is a, this is a while ago, but I, so I would imagine that they've had a bent to can you, to continue to go to one direction.
I would just assume. Yeah. But, but I would, I would simply say is they're probably more neutral if you can be than the gospel coalition, just because in the sense, and this was the other thing, and I want to spin this back to like, how are people should really kind of view this or talk, you know, what should they do if they're seeking a church?
So when I was there, they were, they had a 401c3 status. So they were literally considered a ministry. And I don't know how that was supposed to play into things. I don't know if like, were they donating all their profits?
Um, I don't know. Um, but I, I do know that they transitioned away from that. So they aren't just like a regular business now. And I don't know if they're for profit now. Um, and that was a weird, like, I don't know, I don't want to criticize that because I don't know what the thought was behind that, but that was something that they would call us.
You know, you can say on the phone, we're a ministry. Nope. Okay. Um, so one thing I would want to say, if you're, if you're, if you're sitting in a church that you're, you know, you moved to a new location and this comes up, one thing you should talk to your elder board or your beacons or whoever be responsible for this is when did we sign up for this and how often, how much are we paying for, um, because, because when they signed up for it may make a difference.
So like if they had signed up for it, when it was a really small church, it's probably like they're probably spending less than like a thousand bucks a year on it, which in the grand scheme of things that may be a lot, it may not be.
It depends on the context. Right. But when I was there, they didn't scale it. So if a church blew up, you would actually stay at the original tier you were at, which is actually kind of nice. And it may be one of those things that maybe just as you know, you go to a big church, that's, you know, the spirit's hit and the people are coming, uh, it may be one of those things that just like, they don't, people don't even remember that they're signed up for it.
You know, which seems, you know, it might be a cat. There might be an accounting issue with that, but you know, it might be one of those things where you might want to look past it, but if they're signing up now, you may want to look more into it.
Like, well, what, what, what brought you to want to sign for this? Why, what is the appeal? What is the interest? Because like, like again, it's probably gone further left. And I would imagine. Yeah. So, yeah, no, that, that's such a good point.
Cause I always try to give a lot of grace and mercy with people that are like, you know, they're really into like Tim Keller or gospel coalition stuff, because honestly, like, you know, a lot of these people, like this is, they grew up with Tim Keller and he had some decent stuff and whatever, and it wasn't like a big issue at the time.
Um, but if you're like just getting into him now, it's a totally different thing. If you really like his new critical theory, you know, article or something like that, like that's totally different than like, I liked reason for God.
You know what I mean? Like it's a, it's a different thing. So like, yeah, not, that's a really good point. That's a really good point. It's just something. Go ahead. No, it's just, it's something to keep in mind because, you know, I'm always big on context.
Like we need to be evaluating things in the context of like, why did the church sign up for this? Yeah. They don't have a library, you know, it might be like, Hey, we just need to get our people something.
And I think it's, it's, I think it's how a lot of people get hooked into the gospel coalition stuff where it's like, we really need something and it's organized. It's well put together and we don't feel capable of organizing Bible studies on their own.
There's a lot of nuance in it. So it's not something I would say if your church has signed up for right now, media run and hide, but I promise you there are very few, most of the churches we're talking about where this probably just like in through the back door, it's not a big deal.
Are your little countryside Baptist churches. You know, it's, it's not in a, in a big city, a church that signed up for this stuff. I promise you they wanted it and they're probably pretty aware of some of the stuff being pushed in it.
And they will probably love it. Yeah. I don't know how woke it is anymore. That was actually, I was, I was getting on. So it's funny. I got onto my account and my accounts for a church called rush Creek, which is just, you know, a saddleback kind of seeker center church.
Sure. And, um, I was just looking at some of the content they have there and it's all pretty soft peddley. I didn't see anything that was like, I bet this is a bunch of woke propaganda. Yeah. Yeah. You know?
And that's because that church is ostensibly conservative. Sure. They're just, you know, theologically they're, they're even jellyfish. So, you know, that whole deal. Got it. So I guess the, the bottom line is if, uh, if you love gospel coalition, you'll love right now, media.
Yeah. You know, I, we say that, but it may not be as woke. So if you really love gospel coalition and you really love your, your workspace righteousness, oh, I'm sorry. Oh, uh, it actually may not be for you.
I just think that they're a product of, they're more of a product of yours, like saddlebacks, then you're, you know, they're, they're more seeker sensitive kind of stuff. I wonder if they've trained more pastors than, uh, than what's his face.
Cause I heard that guy's trained like a million pastors. Rick Warren. Yeah. Maybe more than that. I don't know. I think it was like something like he's training like 20 pastors a day for the last 20 years or something like that.
Man, that guy, that guy, you think I'm busy? That guy's busy. Well, he's including women. So, you know, he's, he's maybe, I mean, well, maybe he's being more biblical. So like when it talks about how many, uh, uh, men went into Israel, we weren't counting the women.
So it's, you know, like triple that. Right. So maybe he's like really doing like 40 since he's not counting the women. So he's being really biblical. But yeah, anything else you want to say, you know, I would just, you know, I would say maybe just as a general point, some of the sales practices they had, um, in terms of like, you know, there was days where it's like, like almost like a black Friday sort of thing.
Um, it's like, you knew like four people were gone by the end of the day if they didn't hit their numbers. Um, and I, I struggle with like, okay, is this a sign of like, you know, like, wait a second.
Are you guys even watching your own material? We're supposed to be graceful. We're supposed to be winceful. Um, you know, so it's like one of those things, like, I just, I can't see. They're just a group that it's like, if somebody just had a theological epiphany, I think it would be shut down or like reformed because I just think there's, there's just enough bad ideas there that I'm like, you know, it's going to become a racket if it's not already one, and I don't want to slander them.
I'm just saying there was enough stuff that I saw there where there was a lot of good and gracious people, right? Super great guys. There's one guy that I worked with. And, uh, I, I recently connected with him cause I saw he was on like a YouTube reel.
I was like, what the heck was, I remember that guy. And now he's like a bit, uh, Bitcoin, uh, like thrifter, like, uh, what do you call it? Like a, like a, he's a total charlatan kind of guy. Does he have like a, like a Christian Bitcoin?
I'm going to send it to you later. No, it's, it's worse than that. So I don't even know if he's Christian anymore. Right. So I'm watching this. I'm like, you know, it's like one of those things of like, you know, they had a lot of cares.
The one thing that, again, you can look at this good or bad, they're very ecumenical in their hiring practices. A lot of charismatics. I may have, there was like me and one other guy that were reformed, reformed.
A lot of the other people were like Matt Chandler reformed. Um, but they had, they had a lot of different people, but I think that there's times where it's like, well, were you really vetting? If this guy was a Christian, you know, like, do you want, do you want a bunch like one of my friends that worked there that got fired on one of those black Fridays, he's now apostate.
And so it's like, well, how good were your hiring practices? Were you just like, Hey, Hey, you go to church on Sundays. Don't you, you know, you need a job at right now. So that's more, you know, that's more behind the scenes kind of funny stuff.
I don't really think that's one way or another is bad thing, but I will say like, you know, in the overall thing, these are just things to consider. If you see right now, media, I, I would say it's a, not a red flag in the sense of you need to leave.
It's a flag in the sense of why is this here? And that's, that's the biggest thing you already hit on that. I just wanted to give a little bit more context, so I hope it was helpful. No, it definitely was self.
I appreciate it. Uh, yeah, that's the, you know, the, the black Friday thing. Hey, you didn't hit your numbers. God, that's, that's, it was brutal, man. And I wonder, I saw them, you know, they'd all shuffle into the office one at a time.
You know, what's happening. And I almost wonder, like, did somebody go like, well, we're firing you. Well, let's pray about it before we, maybe they did. Maybe they did. I used to work in an environment like that.
And, uh, I remember one day, like, I don't know, maybe five years into it. I, uh, me and my buddy, we wrote on the back of index cards, really small, all the people we had seen come and go. And it was like 150 names that we could think of in like, in like 15 minutes.
Crazy stuff, man. All right, Kyle. Hey, well, thanks so much for joining. I'm going to, I'm going to stop the recording, but just hang on for a minute. Sure. All right. God bless.
