Baptism Debate Debrief

TWELVE 5 CHURCH

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00:02

Well welcome and thank you for joining us today. This podcast is a ministry of 12 .5 Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas Where we seek to gather and equip believers for every good work.

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My name is Nathan Hargrave I serve as the preaching elder here at 12 .5 and I'm joined by my co -host

00:20

Jonesboro native and my fellow elder here Jeremiah Nortier Well, hello.

00:33

Welcome This is kind of our first video podcast thing that we're doing right,

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I think this is it. All right Well before we jump in, I know you're a Jonesboro boy.

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Mm -hmm. You are born and raised I don't think you've you've left the area, right? I've left a handful of times

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But I mean, this is home home for me. This is home All right Well, then I got a question for you because most of our people that are gonna be chiming in this is this is

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Jonesboro people Right, this is Northeast, Arkansas. What is your favorite memory from growing up in Jonesboro?

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That's a hard question So I'm glad you actually gave me some time to think about this

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Because I love going to Craighead Park and so many things that my parents would take me Rollerblading was a big one going to Galactic Hurricane people that have lived in Jonesboro for a long time

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Those were some fun memories there But one of my favorite Funny memories that I will never forget

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Nathan is you know, basketball is a big part of my life Yeah, so we were playing in the NEA tournament against Jonesboro.

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We're Westside. So this was a huge basketball game. Okay, and Hunter Mickelson had the green light He was basically the only one that could dunk a basketball and I'm like I got to put on a show for 4 ,000 people here

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So I had a fast break and I missed a wide -open dunk in front of Goodness and coach snatched right before the fall.

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Yes. Oh, yeah, and he chewed me for three straight minutes Thinking I'm so glad I got a break goodness and when he was done he was like get back in there and quit being selfish

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Oh my that's funny. So I'll never forget that but something else that I'll never forget with playing basketball for Westside Was after every game that we won my whole basketball team would make a circle around me and I would start dancing

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Okay, okay thing that we did and over time. I'm gonna have you start doing that here at church, right?

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Okay You shouldn't have said that you shouldn't have told me that Well, what is even funnier about it is

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I would have a lot of friends from other schools that come watch us play ball And it was understood my friends would join in the zoo crew with me and we would dance

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That was just a pack. Okay, we're gonna have to try and search for a video of this there. I'm sure there is

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Yes, I'm sure there is that's hilarious Okay, so you so your favorite Jonesboro memories are basketball they're surrounding around basketball that was kind of your thing wasn't it

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Basketball believe it or not baseball. I did track. I did tennis a lot with my brother my mom

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It was just sports all the time. Yeah for me That is the opposite of me because I have about zero athletic

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Ability whatsoever. I've seen you shoot a basketball before it. Well exactly so, you know exactly what

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I'm saying Eat it the problem with it was is I'm highly competitive also and so no athleticism

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With combined with not, you know, not wanting to lose. It's a bad combo

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I just avoided my whole concept was if I avoided playing the sport No one didn't know that I wasn't like really good.

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So maybe in their minds are thinking maybe he's good Right, that was my pride

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Good fun memories, though. I've really loved Jonesboro. Oh, man. Yeah, it's changed a whole lot over the 20 like I'll be

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I'll be 30 in May So it's all downhill from here. I feel like oh my goodness

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Don't say that but Jonesboro has changed a whole lot, but it's my home and I love it I've been blessed to be able to stay here to be able to work here and serve in ministry here as well.

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Yeah That's awesome. I love that you're here. I love that you're here You got so many roots here. I mean,

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I'm I lived here as a kid, you know, you know dad preached Philadelphia Baptist Church just north of town here back in the 80s when

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I was young and we didn't move away from here till I Was about 11. So I have I have Deep roots also just I didn't end up growing up here, you know, like you did and saying you grew up more in,

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Florida Yeah, so so around 11, you know, that's kind of a pivotal age We were down in Florida and man,

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I'll tell you what that was a totally different culture. Sure Well, what were some of your favorite memories in Florida growing up in Florida?

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Mm -hmm. Oh my goodness. Now you caught me off guard I I I Don't know that I have a ton of favorite memories from Florida.

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I can tell you favorite memories from Jonesboro That was a kid. I can tell you that. Okay, so When since we lived up just north of town, right?

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So so you had to go down Main Street to get back to the house and every once in a while We'd come to town. It was like as if we lived far out of town, you know

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We thought we lived in the country, but you'd have to go through Main Street. So on the way back you're coming Right before the railroad tracks there used to be a building where that parking lot is right now

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You know, you know where Cregan's is on the corner was a parking lot next to it Well that used to be a building I don't know if it was still there when you were younger or not

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But that building I don't know what it originally was When I was a kid was the

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Army Navy store, okay, and and dude Every time we came to town man, that was my that was my whole agenda

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I I was trying to get mom to stop at the army army Navy store cuz I'd have a couple bucks with me

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You know, yeah, and they sold these uh, you remember the the Chinese Like the ninja throwing stars, you know,

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I'm talking about. Yeah, so they sell those. I mean they were worthless They weren't really sharp or like they wouldn't even stick into the drywall

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But I thought they were amazing like this is a lethal weapon that I'm purchasing as a child, right? And so I would go in there buy those.

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That was like the highlight of my I still remember that the growing up What a big deal it was.

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I can still smell the store. I miss it. I wish the building was still there Yeah, I don't think I ever went there if if anybody

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Remembers what that building was before the Army Navy store that I would be interested put it in the comments If you remember that spot the parking lot right before the railroad tracks on Main Street, that's pretty cool.

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Yeah, I loved it That was a long time ago Jonesboro's change. I'm not saying you're old Nathan that I was fixate

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You just said that you're getting ready to turn 30 and that and that that's like, what'd you say?

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It's all down all downhill from there. Oh my goodness Yeah, that to my friend

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Cameron Vogel saying cuz he just turned 30. Ah, happy birthday Cameron. Yeah, that's right You went over over there to Memphis or they in Memphis or they're in Mississippi, right?

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Yeah. Okay. So hey Cameron Happy birthday, man. Wish I could join you guys. Wait, I think it's today.

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Oh the birthdays today. Well, then hey Tell me we had a early surprise birthday party, but yeah, we're just I texted him and hey, we're just trying to stay

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We're just trying to survive at this point now that we've reached 30. Oh my goodness Dude yeah, you got it.

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You got a long ways to go. Yeah after that one If I could feel like I felt at 30

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I would be a happy man and I'm not even old So I'm only what I'm 44. You're not even old.

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You're the same age as Trey Fisher. Oh Trey. Yeah, that's right That's right.

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All right, man. So let's let's jump into this. I know this is what everybody came to here They didn't come to hear about our childhood, right?

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but but we just want to let everybody know how much we love this community and why we wanted to plant a church here and Minister to the people here because we love

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I mean you obviously you have deeper roots than myself But we both have a passion for people here in this community and we love the community

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But we're here to talk about the debate from back in February 11th at ASU Tell us a little bit about who it was that you were debating

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Well, I had a blast for one I feel like it was just a huge blessing and how it came about was interesting.

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So it's all started about a year and a half ago There was a church member.

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I don't think she'd mind me saying miss Brenda She showed me a newspaper article about an article in the paper that was being written by Church Christ preacher

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And it was pretty much bash bashing phrases that we hold near and dear from church history like sola fide faith alone solus

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Christus Christ alone and solely deo gloria to alter the glory of God alone and had all these

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The solas the five solas of the Protestant Reformation and Aaron Dodson was just saying how we're not saved by faith alone, right because it includes repentance

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It includes a list of other things and I'm like, you know, that is a common misunderstanding of what that term means, right?

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I remember miss Brenda was like, hey, you should maybe reach out to this guy I was like that's a great idea and cuz hey

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I can reach out to somebody and you know with the heart of kindness and Love, you know just talked about these things

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So I reached out to Aaron and we had two really good conversations and you know conversations get a little heated sometimes

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But we would always kind of remind each other. Hey, it's all good, you know And so this is how it all started and I remember asking

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Aaron a question and his answer really surprised me Just and I think it'd be good to kind of let everybody know

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We started defining the word faith and we started defining the word works Hmm and you know, my heart is to you know,

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I love the English but the original language was what is inspired So when we read a word in English, that's that's wonderful and great.

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We got to ask. What does that word mean? We don't look to 21st century dictionaries. We look to the Greek word in lexical uses of that word

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So I'm explaining the word Ergon for works meaning what we do what we accomplish.

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It's really getting at human Exertion so it's Ergon. This is where we get the English word energy from this is the etymology of that So I'm defining works as anything that we accomplish by human hands and we exert in Energy, right and we perform a ceremonial action.

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That is a work So he was quick to tell me that he's like, well, that's just your definition of works

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And I'm like, honestly, I'm trying to understand the Greek word Ergon He says well, it's easy to build a doctrine when you make up your own definitions and I'm like I agree with you

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That's not what I'm trying to do. So I asked him. What is your definition of the word works? And he told me

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I don't have a definition of the word works I just obey the gospel the gospel is simple and I just believe it and I said

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I think it's simple too But what's your definition of this word that's used in Scripture? And he said I'm not gonna fall for your trap

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He goes I he says I'm smarter than that I don't have to define that word and I thought like you're trying to trap him.

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I'm not trying to trap I'm trying to say you're a preacher you get up in the pulpit You don't just say it says what it says you explain the meaning right?

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That's what teachers do, right? but we talked about a lot of things that we're gonna get into hopefully here in a little bit and so a few weeks went by and I thought it was interesting

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He didn't want to because he asked me if I'd be interested in debate and I thought he meant with himself and I was like Absolutely.

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Yes. I want to do this now not I mean this but to talk about the truth and I say that there was debate going on in Scripture and we see that Faithful men and saints have debated in church history like this is just a means that God has used over time, right?

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But he had a friend that he wanted me to debate with and you know I was kind of like that's fine. And so Aaron was actually really kind invited me to his church

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On like a Thursday or something. I got to meet him in person and he was real kind met his friend

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He's no longer in Jonesboro and so he actually we were gonna set up a debate But I don't know if he got promoted or he took another job

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I think this man Tony Brewer is in Canada now, so I just kind of fell through so this wasn't

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Brock This was another guy. Okay another guy and so it just kind of fizzled out and it's kind of like hey, it's okay

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You know, it just didn't happen because he moved away And so I've been blessed to meet

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Marlon Wilson at the gospel truth And I remember finding his

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YouTube channel and him hosting debates. I'm just like this is awesome He gets some big names on there.

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They talk about all these different biblical topics and sure enough I just since I didn't have the debate here in Jonesboro with Tony Brewer I actually sent that to Marlon Wilson saying hey, here's a good debate topic

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I'd like to see a Baptist and Church Christ debate about baptism and Marlon messaged me back really fast to my surprise and he was

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Like hey, I'll definitely remember that by the way, would you like to debate a Mormon? And so I did that and I got to do

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I think about three debates on Marlon's channel And so you got a year and a half later and I was actually at g3

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Okay, and in Atlanta right in Atlanta had a blast and Aaron reached out to me.

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He said hey I have a friend in Harrisburg that's looking to debate somebody on water baptism

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Would you be interested and I remember so fast saying absolutely I want to do this and I had no idea who Brock was But I remember

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I really wanted to do this. Okay, and so from there Got to know Brock and Aaron.

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We all would go out to eat. We'd talk about things super nice super cordial But something we all share is a zeal to understand

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God's Word, right? And so we all I think we had a mutual respect about that And so I don't know if you want to chime in but that's kind of how it all kind of started building up I started through Aaron.

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That's how I met Brock met Brock. Okay, and so Brock wanted to debate somebody in the back and Baptist circles on baptism.

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Yes, so Tell us a little bit about How did it go from a baptism debate to such a odd Proposition and what was the proposition again?

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The New Testament teaches that the Liberty from the penalty of past sins is at the point of an external act

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Oh, it keeps going, right? Yeah, it's just it's like Very, uh, what did Trey Fisher call it a word salad a word.

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Yeah. I was like Trey's got jokes Hey a shout out to what it what is their their

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YouTube channel the parish Redeemer is it their churches YouTube channel or is that his podcast his podcast?

14:36

I think maybe we should have done a little research on our buddy Trey before we jumped into this. Hey Trey, hopefully you're watching brother

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So there was a build -up to that And this is actually really interesting. So I'm sitting down at Panera with Brock and Aaron and The original the original proposition was like the

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New Testament teaches that water Baptism is for in parentheses in order to obtain the remission of sins, right?

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That was originally the one we were gonna do two debates and the second one was gonna be on faith alone And I'd be the affirmative rather than the negative.

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Yes, and over time we realized let's just do one Let's see how this goes and then maybe now they're glad they just did one

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I mean I'm just saying like you want I don't think they want anything to do with us any well You know, I just look at it as I trust

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God with it all man Yeah, and if one day they do want to do something, I'm sure we could work something out.

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We'll just see I'm just saying I and I thoroughly was blessed and enjoyed everything beginning from him

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Yeah, so, you know, there's talks about doing two debates making it multiple nights and that was the first one on water baptism

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That's what happened I get a little bit more background with Brock and he's telling me that he's going to a lot of the

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Baptist churches Baptist laying churches in town basically saying hey, I want to do a debate on baptism

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Yeah, and a lot of the churches, you know would kind of go Oh would that's work and then Brock would brightly bring up Romans 10 saying what isn't confessing with the mouth of work and then a lot of pastors not knowing how to engage right point, right?

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Well, I've been studying these things for a long time just by the grace of God And I've grown up in this in Jonesboro where there's a lot of Church of Christ So, I mean,

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I've literally set tables like this with multiple elders from Church Christ talking about all these issues, right? so Brock told me he's like you you

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Think differently and talk differently and teach differently than a very typical Baptist individual and I was just like there's reasons for all of that right one

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I've been blessed by just being familiar with a lot of these these issues Yeah, and so I explained how

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I would negate the proposition to him like because he asked me I just said it's works for these reasons and I think from then on He was thinking we probably need to debate something else right nuance their difference, right?

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Right should not be just so pointed at water baptism because I was ready to go to all eight Verses or so of the proof text that they typically go to and I'm familiar with all those verses in the context in which they exist

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Right, so I I noticed the more I talked to him about it the more he wanted to debate something different different Yeah, and I could see that change happening because you guys were meeting quite a bit in preparation for this

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We met a number of times and then you met with this one time Well, that was interesting because that was kind of weird, wasn't it?

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It was because when you came it just seems like their demeanor changed and even after you left and we talked it was different So maybe maybe

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I smelt maybe Is that a word smelt I smelt no, I I smelled

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I guess But it was interesting because I love these individuals but there was a lot of times

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I would just notice the things we talked about demeanor change to Me and you together.

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So it's hard for me to put my finger on it all the time And a lot of those times I just don't look too deep into that.

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I guess well I'll say you know the debate from my perspective has been unbelievably fruitful

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You know, we've gotten some pushback from both sides as to why why we're debating I'll talk about that here in just a moment, but but But me and you can attest just how how fruitful right the

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Word of God never returns void It always does the work that it sets out to do and so we've just tried to be faithful and I was

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Overwhelmed with gratitude with how you carried yourself and graciousness and how you prepared you were I was up there just goofing around just because I had to be up there, right?

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But I as I said on on Trey's podcast I felt like the guy in the corner of the boxing ring that would bring out the towel and the water for you

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You know in between but I enjoyed doing that but but the whole thing I believe that God is working through it, you know

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God works through everything but he's using these means and and our prayer going into it for for both of us was a diligent prayer that the gospel the

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True gospel of Jesus Christ would go forth, right? I mean that was the whole purpose in this

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This was a gospel centric Evangelistic approach of dealing with the truth so I know that both of us have had many interactions with people that Have traditionally or even currently hold the

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Church of Christ doctrine So you want to share any maybe one or two or any of those interactions?

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I actually want to begin with one interaction I say one interaction but the first of just Brock Kendall himself because I was told by a lot of people the advice is don't talk so much to your interlocutor before the debate because Strategically, they're gonna be making notes better understand your position and all those things

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But just like you said I was looking at this not trying to step in and win an argument not try to claim victory

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Like I was superior in this action No, this is an opportunity to preach the gospel of grace now within the context of what we agreed upon.

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Absolutely But with Brock it was so wonderful Nathan because obviously I'm praying for him.

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I love him more than he will ever know I think yeah, and so he was asking me questions.

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Like how do you understand repentance? How do you understand regeneration? What is your understanding of the gospel?

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Mm -hmm opportunities. I look at that is God This is you sending someone to me to share truth in their life now, right on the other end

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I don't know what he's doing, but I leave those things up to God. He's the one that gives the increase, right? so that's probably the

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Bit one of the biggest interactions I had with the debate and it's actually the man. I was debating himself Brock So Brock Kendall and I just count that as a massive tremendous blessing.

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Oh, man Yeah, and you know with the the opportunity to have the debate

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Really wanted it to happen So we had to be flexible a lot on things that he wanted to do and things that I wanted to do and so, you know

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You mentioned earlier you were up there with me I'd like to know that was one of those things that I didn't want to do that because I thought someone up there with me

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Would be distracting right, but they were very intentional that they wanted them to up there and I didn't want them to cancel

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Because of that. Yes, and so we decided that Nathan could at least be eye candy. There you go with that's what

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I'm talking about I did that well He wasn't just a pretty face up there

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Oh, man All I did was I had Logos open so that I could keep up with where you were going and you actually did something key in the debate because I went back and looked and I remember why

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I said something was based on one of your suggestions because Brock Was very irritated with my opening statement, right?

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And I would like to remind Brock we agreed to have both opening statements not me to immediately rebut what he said

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Yes, because in an opening statement, he's gonna lay out what he thinks is important I may think some of those things are important along with other things of why disagree, right?

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Well, that's when we decided not to have him have an opening statement and me immediately do a rebuttal, right?

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We agreed on two opening statements now based on what I've heard and things like that.

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He was very irritable in the debate itself He's very irritated. He seemed a little frustrated. Yeah, and I hated that because I Buy get tensions get high and you expect one thing something else happens

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Yeah, so I hate that because it wasn't intentionally to make him mad or anything But I was able to bring out more issues to the table than just his two verses that he wanted, right?

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So what you did though is you when I right before I went up to do my rebuttal So you got to think he did opening statement then me then he did rebuttal than me right before I went up you reminded me

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I remember you're like let everybody know that you were laying a foundation. Yeah, I was defining terms

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I was talking about more concepts that I knew would be important for this debate, right? So anyway, that was just one of those things that we that's why we did it

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Yeah, you know, yeah, and so after the debate a little bit of the the aftermath But honestly, it was all of its been good

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Even for the people that were kind of negative we know that those things are gonna happen, right? They thought

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I've had people message me that our Church of Christ that are kind of still in the shadows Mmm, and I don't want to mention names right but just saying

22:56

Jeremiah I feel like our side wasn't represented the way that we would like. Yep Thank you for curing yourself with kindness and gentleness and grace because right you and I we've prayed that man if I got up there

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Yeah, and just had this smirk on my face. Yep, you know tried to make it all about me

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I mean and it wasn't grounded in love. It'd be all for nothing, right? So I've just had a number of people appreciate

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My heart and I could see it and I'm like praise God because that's that's him blessing the situation because I'm falling and in some ways

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I'm glad you're up there because I think you being up there was encouraging and kind of reminded me what we're doing with this

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Right about yeah, so I've had that and in those same conversations with the person I'm having in mind asking me

23:40

Do you have any resources so I can better your understanding you better understand your position on justification, right?

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You're so teary ology as a whole. Yep. And so I recommended the God who justifies. Yeah, dr

23:51

James White and then I also recommended the Potter's freedom that goes into more issues And so that's just one situation that stands out to me.

23:58

That's good. And then just one more Some people have called some texts and I get a lot through social media

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Had one gentleman reach out online and tell me how much he appreciated the multiple angles that were discussed in this debate

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He said I've watched the the handful of the Church Christ Baptist debates and he said there's nothing like this one, right?

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He said thank you so much for doing this and I just look at that as praise God I mean because yeah apart from his blessing.

24:24

I'm just you know, I'm a knucklehead right? You know what? Yeah And I can affirm that.

24:31

Yeah, so can my wife too, which I hope she's watching out there. I love you Ali Yeah, so I and I just I just wanted to echo the fact that there's been so much positive

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Feedback even the ones that are kind of mad. I'm even trying to show them grace online to you Just saying hey, you're entitled to your opinion.

24:51

Yeah, if you have any questions about something feel free to ask me Yep, but you're also welcome to express your your thoughts and stuff, too

24:58

No, I I'm with you I mean the church site which you don't run which I think that a lot of people thought you ran it up front

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The church site is something that I run and so we're getting private messages all the time and and it's it's opportunity

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These are gospel opportunities with people that I understand why they're trying to be secretive Yeah, right. It's almost like they they they want us to not share their identity

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So we're not we're gonna be very cautious not to put names out there if you've reached out to us We're not telling anyone about this.

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I Understand the fear of of being shunned or losing relationships and friends.

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This is something you've thought And believed for so long, but man, there's people that are curious and and I think that that the gospel of grace

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It I think people see the freedom in it They see that that legalism and works and all of these systems are

25:53

Bearing down on them. It's a weight. They can't bear and and so to hear about a gracious Faithful Savior that has done everything and now in light of that we get to serve that gracious Savior We get to go and be baptized

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We get to go and and be obedient to the things that God's called us to which is what we see in Scripture And so I totally understand people that have reached out and if and if you have questions or you feel like reaching out

26:19

Please do so message the church or myself or Pastor Jeremiah and reach out to us

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That will be confidential and and we will we will walk with you and make recommendations for for resources and Scripture not just one verse here and there but chunks of Scripture in context

26:39

So I would like to say that and then there are people that obviously we have

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A lot of Baptists that are probably more Baptist probably watching this this live feed Of course today and I understand that so you if you're listening, please

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Be in prayer with us. You obviously don't know names You don't know circumstances, but our heart from the beginning of this entire process

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With the debate and and with reaching out and dealing with the Church of Christ in this area

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Our heart has been for the people We care deeply we love the people that are in the

27:20

Church of Christ and We want that we want to reach them and not only them But we love our

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Baptist brothers and sisters and our Presbyterian brothers and sisters and all these all these other Denominations we love and we want this to be a resource for them to be sharpened

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And so be praying for the people that are that are hearing these truths be praying specifically for Brock and Aaron I mean,

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I've I've shed tears over those two men just because I Long for them to come to the saving knowledge of Christ.

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I long for them to repent and look to Christ alone, right? and so please please be in prayer put that put these these people the nameless ones and even the ones we've named on your prayer list because We long to to reach them.

28:06

We long well, we can't reach him. God has to do the work, right? We can give them all the information we want but it's

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God that has to move It's like Jesus telling Nicodemus the wind blows where it will right? That's the

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Holy Spirit regenerating awakening But I said this on social media a couple weeks back and I think it was misunderstood

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At least I heard that that some of some of the guys were were mocking it because they didn't understand it

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So I want to clarify and I want to say it again and reaffirm it 12 -5 church me

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Jeremiah We truly believe that there are true

28:45

Christians in the Church of Christ right now as we speak we believe there are people who have put their faith and trust in Christ alone and have been saved by the grace of our loving

28:59

Savior in spite of Church of Christ theology I need to be clear.

29:05

They're saved in spite and you might be one of those and I'm praying for you right now because we want to we want to go to the

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Word of God and and help you to see the truth and the reason we want to do this

29:20

This is our heart. This is why we want to to minister to the people that are

29:28

I would say and I want to use my language very carefully here that are deceived by a false gospel

29:44

True Christians can be deceived by these things right Christians can be pulled away and so what we are going after the right after the debate

29:55

I put up a thing about you and I referenced the Church of Christ and I Added the word cult, right?

30:03

And I honestly I didn't mean it maliciously. It was not a malicious intent

30:09

You know me and you we kind of know the reference for cult and and so I Put it out there not in a mean way not in a name -calling way

30:17

What was the word they were using saying that I we used it and add homonym homonym attack

30:23

Yes, and and so you bring that up to say well if someone loses an argument

30:28

They don't have anything to say so they start name -calling right and they say that usually gives evidence because you have nothing else to say

30:35

And we hear that we're just like cult means something like it has a definition It really means to you you have a particular group of people usually with a leader, right?

30:45

That deviates from orthodoxy deviates from the faith now the Church Christ. They don't like to be called as a denomination

30:51

They don't like to acknowledge Alexander Campbell, right? But if you look at the history There was a deviation

30:57

Alexander Campbell began as a Presbyterian. Yep, right some things For a while did he hopped into the

31:02

Baptist Circle and he kind of took a few things from being Presbyterian a few things for Baptists and he started this movement.

31:09

Yeah, and my heart breaks because that's the Church of Christ history Yes, they can claim to be the apostolic

31:16

New Testament Church and acts, right? Right, but Christ has been building a church for 2 ,000 years and there's a history that we can go back and look at Yes, and so Colt has a definition now

31:26

Aaron got mad. He's just like oh, that's a that's an earthly term I just try to use what the

31:32

Bible says and I just say false teachers, right? And I'm like, I want to say Aaron you believe that we are a cult.

31:40

Yes fact. It's much deeper than that You believe that everyone that's not Church of Christ is lost, right?

31:46

And what we're saying is we believe that true believers exist in the Church of Christ denomination I know they wouldn't claim that but that's what it is, right, but it's so worse and you know,

31:56

I listen to them I'm just like man, they seem so mad. They seem so mad. They're not sharing the debate They don't want people they probably want that erased from the internet.

32:04

I'm sure yeah So it just breaks my heart because I know what, you know, obviously I didn't even know that you posted that but we have talked about For years how the

32:13

Church of Christ is a cult by definition and we're not saying that to make people mad It's right believe it

32:18

And so we want to share people with the truth and maybe there are ways and it's no different like you said as to way They perceive us, right?

32:24

It's a two -way street on this because if we're wrong if if what we believe scripture teaches is wrong

32:30

Then we are a cult exactly no question about it. And so If the shoe fits, right and and but the other day when

32:37

I posted it, right? I had to sit and realize because I saw a lot of people and I was looking at their profiles and these aren't leaders in The Church of Christ.

32:44

These are just people that go that are hurt and and and so just for the sake of Showing love

32:53

I removed the word I edited the profile. I removed the word out because Essentially the post said false gospel.

33:00

Yeah, right And so the word cult wasn't even needed I shouldn't have put it in there in the first place because I'm not attacking

33:07

Individuals that go to Church of Christ and that are members and a part of it. We are attacking the teachers

33:13

We're attacking the preachers and the leaders Because they're the false teachers and we'll talk about that here in just a second

33:20

But but I want everyone to know that that that was not my intent I have great love for you compassion, but it doesn't negate the fact of what is true and And so we removed it and then

33:34

I'm not sure what happened to all the comments I'm glad you brought this up because apparently we've been accused of people calling us out, right?

33:42

We don't like what they say. So we just deleted off Facebook I tried to send you because you hadn't seen the first comments and it was like 20 and I'd responded to a couple and I went

33:50

To send it to you remember and you couldn't pull it up and I went to go look and it was gone There was a large number like 20 something and I couldn't but it was only from like three different people

33:59

I think if I'm not mistaken if somebody has a screenshot, please send it to us because we'll post it We want it up there, but but I don't know what happened

34:06

I assumed that those people deleted their comments and since we had tagged them responding that those were removed

34:12

I don't I don't know what happened. This is another thing that Aaron said that hurt my heart He says man what deceitful people deleting comments like that and I'm just not

34:19

I don't it's not what happened, you know Yeah, I was surprised that they were gone But hey that God had a purpose in it, right and I trust in him

34:28

But but like I said, we're not attacking the individuals where we're going after the preachers We're going after the teachers the leaders the people that we believe

34:35

Scripture teaches are a false gospel So I want to talk about that for one second before we jump into all the debate stuff

34:41

I want to go to Scripture and I want us to look at a couple of things here I'm gonna try and have them.

34:47

Well, I'm not even gonna have them up on the screen So you can turn you can jot these down look at them. Make sure I'm reading these properly

34:53

Galatians chapter 1 starting in verse 6 Galatians 1 Now we have to remember the book of Galatians Who who is

35:02

Paul addressing here, right? Who is he going after in the book of Galatians? It's the

35:08

Judaizers, right? The Judaizers what's wrong with the Judaizers? We've heard that term But but many people don't know what's wrong with them.

35:14

The Judaizers are a group of people that say yes Jesus We love Jesus.

35:19

He is that he's the way the truth in the life. No one comes the Father except through him, right? They're proclaiming this truth about Jesus But then they add they add the ceremonial things that the people of Israel were called to they're adding

35:34

Circumcision they're adding all of these extra things and saying and these are all biblical things per se

35:42

But they're saying that you must do these things in order to truly be saved

35:48

Okay, so you see the distinction here that go that the Judaizers to be saved and so Paul's writing this letter chapter 1

35:55

Galatians starting in verse 6 He says I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and Are turning to this is a big one a different Gospel, let me just add to notice how he says him who called you in the grace

36:14

Christ you've asked me why do you keep saying the gospel grace? Well for one that's what

36:19

Paul calls it in Acts chapter 20, right? And here we're getting that clue that we have been called and those who are in Christ It's because of a it's because of grace.

36:30

Yeah, Paul builds that argument elsewhere in Scripture But I'm here you see that's the grace of Christ and then they're turning to a different gospel.

36:37

Yes Yes, and so this is what he's addressing. Remember the Judaizers a different gospel in verse 7.

36:43

Hey, he confirms he says right not that there is another one and then he says but There are some

36:51

Right. There's some people in here there are some people trying to deceive who trouble you and want to Distort the gospel of Christ one when mean you've been saying distort the gospel

37:03

I've heard a couple of them saying what are they talking about distorting the gospel? We're just we're we're quoting

37:09

Paul We're quoting Scripture and he says they distort the gospel of Christ verse 8, but even if we

37:15

He's speaking of himself of Barnabas the Apostles Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel

37:24

Contrary to the one we preached to you He says let him be accursed

37:32

Right, though that word anathema, right? Let him be accursed a true believer can't be accursed a true believer can never be an anathema

37:40

All right that that that word is basically judging someone to hell and So this is what

37:47

Paul says that the gospel that is contrary to the one we preached to you So so who's writing the book to the to Galatia, right?

37:55

Paul So what is the gospel according to Paul? Let's look at Romans 10 Romans 10 starting in verse 9 9 through 11

38:03

This this is as clear a breakdown of what Paul believes the gospel of Jesus Christ is and you got to remember

38:09

Romans is different from acts acts is a narrative Acts gives us some stories, but Romans gives us theology

38:19

Not that we don't get theology from acts. We get theology from that But that's not the purpose of acts acts is a narrative telling us what happened

38:28

Romans is the book to go to for salvation Soteriology it is the book to go to and all theologians confirm that I'm not just saying that so Romans 10 starting in verse 9 he says because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is

38:46

Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead and Then get baptized

38:55

No, it doesn't say that Says you will be saved The verse 10 says for and this is key with the heart one believes

39:06

All right that justification that heart that new heart that we see back in the

39:12

Old Testament that he is gonna give us he's gonna take out a Heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh. That's a heart of faith. He gives us that faith

39:18

It's not a faith that we conjure up It's not a work and then and then the repentance the repentant heart with that faith that comes along with it

39:25

That's not a work. That's something God gives us and then we express it with an outward act of repentance and faith

39:32

Okay, he says for with the heart one believes and is justified

39:38

Now they didn't want to talk about that word per se. I know that's not really a word They like to utilize but this word just means made righteous, right?

39:46

That's the simplest form made righteous justified and it says and with the mouth one confesses

39:53

So what the heart change now comes out of your mouth and is saved

39:59

In verse 11 for the scripture says everyone who believes in him

40:06

Will not be put to shame Notice, it doesn't say everyone who believes him. Hmm.

40:11

It's true says everyone who believes in him So this is Paul's definition of the gospel and anyone that distorts that is to be an anathema

40:21

Okay, so where did Paul get this gospel, right? We know Paul gets us this gospel from Jesus right.

40:29

Jesus is our is our ultimate authority. He is the author of this book This is this is where we want to look for and this is where he's getting this gospel

40:38

So let's look at John chapter 11 starting in verse 25 This this is the encounter where Jesus comes to Lazarus tomb and he's speaking to Martha Starting in verse 25.

40:51

It says Jesus said to her. I Am the resurrection of the life Whoever believes in me right not who believes me but and believes in me though he died yet shall he live and Everyone who lives

41:12

And believes in me shall never die Do you believe this he asked

41:17

Martha and she said to him. Yes Lord I believe that you are the Christ the Son of God who is coming into the world

41:25

So Paul says that anyone who teaches anything or something other than this

41:34

Galatians 1 he's talking about me or an angel if someone else preaches declares to you a different gospel

41:40

That's why we're saying it's the teachers that are held to a higher standard than the people

41:46

Yes that are under their teaching right thinking of James 3 verse 1. There's gonna be a stricter judgment for teachers

41:51

Yes, I says let not many of you be teachers of these things because these are weighty right the teachers

41:56

That's what Paul has in mind here those teachers those Judaizers that are declaring a false gospel

42:01

I just want to let everyone know that's that's kind of what Paul's getting at It's those that are preaching another gospel.

42:08

Amen. Amen. We got we got our boys Zachary Minton. Oh, no Few miles away from us.

42:14

He's on here. He just writes Romans 9 through 11 fire Hi your beard is better than mine.

42:20

Yes. Yeah, he's getting us on the beard thing We're trying to catch up to you Zack All right Well, I'm gonna bounce off of what you just said because I wanted to bring out this passage because people are asking us

42:30

Why are you going after? The the Church of Christ why why don't you just let this lie you do your thing?

42:38

Let them do their thing. And the reason is is because I believe many Christians in this community in particular

42:46

Have have lost the distinction between the

42:51

Church of Christ religion and Christianity and They believe that you're that they're just another denomination

42:59

Right, it would be like Jehovah's Witness or Mormons or something like that But they are closer to us our neighbors because I've got neighbors here that are

43:06

Church of Christ. I love them They're like the best neighbors in the world They're like then they're super kind people and I love them to death

43:12

And so it's you can see where that distinction gets gets blurred And and so I wanted to bring this up this question.

43:20

Why are you doing this? Why are you being? Divisive in this way Well, I want us to look at Titus 1 9

43:28

Yes, Titus 1 9 and Paul's qualification of an overseer and that's what we're called to right?

43:34

We are both elders pastors This is a qualification that we are held to if people are gonna see

43:41

Church of Christ as just another denomination as a Christian group that thinks differently We have a responsibility because Paul says to Titus in 1 9

43:50

He must talking about an overseer an elder that's qualified He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught

43:57

Right that gospel that Paul talked about the gospel that he proclaimed the gospel that he got from the other

44:02

Apostles and from Christ himself Okay, that gospel that we the trustworthy word as taught so that he may be able to give instruction in sound

44:15

Doctrine. Okay, the theology Word of God. We teach it. That's what we're called to and Also, here's the kicker to rebuke

44:24

Those who contradict it People don't like that word today. I get it. We don't like the word rebuke

44:30

We don't like to be told somebody's wrong because everything is relative right who am I to say?

44:35

Who's Jeremiah to say that that that Brock Kendall is wrong in his perspective of?

44:42

Justification who are you to say? Well, that's exactly what Paul says

44:47

Holding firm to the trustworthy word as taught scripture. It's God's Word.

44:53

We're trying to define God's Word and We can't avoid this we can't avoid

44:59

Rebuking false teachers in this community. We can't because if we did and guess what we would be in sin

45:06

You and I would have to resign from our positions because we would be unqualified if we do not point out false teachers

45:12

It's as simple as that. It's straightforward right there from Paul to Titus This is what an overseer does so we are bound to it because we're bound to the

45:22

Word of God So to kind of just echo what you're saying we see this modeled with Paul himself

45:28

Not only in his letters like we're reading but when you go back to Acts this wonderful Narrative and we do gling principles.

45:35

How do we know which principles apply? Well, we measure that with the rest of Scripture right these didactic letters that the

45:41

Apostle Paul has been writing to the churches But when you look at the Jerusalem Council, he is combating the

45:47

Judaizer heresy, right? There are some teachers saying unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses You cannot be saved and when people ask me why debates divisive and all this

45:58

I just my first thought is it's biblical, right? It's biblical now. I tell them you got to have love, right?

46:05

The Apostle Paul he was the one that told us you must speak the truth in love So we know that him and Barnabas here after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension.

46:13

They debated with them. Yes Okay, so you got the Judaizer heresy they love them enough to go to war with the truth

46:22

Mm -hmm and truth unites together. It gets me pumped. It does Yeah, because we're reading it in God's Word, right?

46:28

And so I've actually had people say shouldn't debate we talked about this passage right here and they're just like, oh, yeah

46:34

Well, that's true, right? And what I was gonna say is later This was the conclusion that they started getting at in light of the

46:40

Judaizer heresy, right? They said God knows the heart right and they even I guess leading up to that I want to say after there had been much debate

46:49

Peter then stands up and says brothers You know that the early days of God made a choice among you that by the mouth of the

46:57

Gentiles Should hear the word of the gospel and believe Emphasizing belief here and God knows the heart

47:04

Yes Who bore witness to them by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us now? This is really important too and made no distinction between us and them having cleansed their hearts by faith

47:17

Mm -hmm. So you see the Judaizer heresy you see Paul and Barnabas?

47:23

Warring against them debating them right in love and the conclusion was your faith has to be in God and his promise

47:31

Savior Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's what cleanses your heart. That's what it justifies us in this sign now

47:38

Yeah, we do need to explain the importance of baptism, right? Yeah, those are things. It's like man.

47:43

We have a good conversation, right? Context is King like when you're quoting from John earlier

47:49

I know the arguments they try to make a big deal that this is pre -cross right right and it gets into more things

47:55

But this is why we have to have sound doctrine. That's why we have to look to the whole Council of God, right? We got to be careful as we're handling it with precision

48:02

We won't we don't want to divide it in such a way where it's ripped apart and ripped to shreds Right, and it doesn't match up with itself.

48:09

So you got to be able to lovingly talk about these things Yes, and they're very important and it's biblical.

48:15

So I'm just saying when you're reading Titus 1 9 we see that mulled out Yes in Scripture, and I'll even go further

48:23

We're not wrong on this matter of justification by faith, but let's assume we are let's play Let's play that game real quick.

48:30

If we are and you are right Church of Christ stance on Salvation is proper

48:37

Then that passage and Titus applies to us exactly and you should be warning Everyone in your flock about us.

48:45

Yeah And we would we would expect nothing less Now our conviction is and our conscience are clear that what we're speaking is truth

48:54

And so but you're letting people know our heart in the matter. Yes We don't hate these people right being called by scripture to do these and we are going to go after their leaders

49:03

Their leaders are the ones that are culpable they're the ones now now the individuals you're called culpable if you know that Justifications by faith alone and baptism didn't save you and you stay in the

49:13

Church of Christ Christian I I implore you to repent and find a

49:18

Bible -believing Church I beg of you to get out of that and grab as many

49:23

Saints as you can on the way out But the teachers have a whole nother level a whole nother level of responsibility

49:31

Yeah, now you said faith alone Because I hear people say it doesn't say faith alone right, right.

49:39

Yeah, and that's a Historical term I tried to explain the debate and I could tell Brock did not like me talking about that Yeah, and what

49:46

I tell people is Christ has been building his church for 2 ,000 years. There's been terminology Nomenclature that has come out of church history.

49:54

Yes important like the Trinity the Trinity That word is not found in the Bible depending on the

49:59

King James, right? It says Godhead right 3ds V divine nature. The word Trinity is not in the

50:05

Bible That doesn't mean the Trinity is not true. Correct So when you look at church history when you see a term like monotheism, that's not in the

50:12

Bible Yeah, monotheism means that there's one God right teaching that there's one God guess what? That's biblical even though that word is not in the

50:20

Bible. So when we look at the history of faith alone, which Didn't actually originate with Martin Luther actually comes before him in ways, too

50:27

Absolutely, he is saying the faith that we have in Christ is what justifies us apart from what we do.

50:33

Yep, right? That's what that's what we're getting it a faith if you were to have you know Our two cups up here and I say which take this cup off the table.

50:41

This cup is now alone, right? Right. So if you have faith and works on a table and you take the works off the faith is alone, right?

50:49

By itself now the the rebuttal is well, you can just you can have faith

50:54

But if you don't have works faith faith that works is dead, right? Oh my goodness Yes, because when your faith is resting in Christ when he's done that work in you you now live to give him

51:05

Amen, glory the works are now pouring out of you, but it's proper content because the faith comes from the heart

51:12

It's a change of heart not an action, right? The action comes from the change of hearts. Absolutely Yes, you're that's now now that leads me to a question that I want you to expound upon because this is something that has

51:24

Been accused of from the debate and was being brought up numerous times I think in the debate if I'm not mistaken that we are just trying to make things complicated

51:34

That what they want to do is say they called Okay, what did what it was that the Aaron called us on one of his podcast that you you called and told me it was

51:43

Talking about a reformed Theologist the I'm not mocking you

51:49

Aaron. It's just funny. We all slip up with words I just thought it was hilarious cuz I was like so what part of the body does that doctor take care of right?

51:55

Yeah, I guess it's not totally wrong if we were doctors of theology. I actually liked it

52:01

I let you you have coined a new phrase Aaron if you've watched this you've coined a new phrase and we like it brother

52:07

Yeah, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get you a shirt that says that the reformed theologist But they kept saying the reformed theology is it's it's not simple.

52:15

It's not a simple gospel. It's it's complex and So talk about that for a moment for one.

52:21

I did not bring up any reformed theology Theologians in the debate

52:27

I stood on Scripture and Scripture alone now when he brought up a historical term Like sola fide out of its a historical context and misapplying it because if you go back and listen

52:37

Every time I said faith alone Yeah I said faith apart from works right qualifying it the way that the

52:43

Apostle Paul did in Romans 3 Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 right so Because that's not necessary to have in the back of your mind to understand that baptism is a work and it does not save.

52:55

Yes So I just want people to understand that What they what they seem to be doing in my opinion is poisoning the well

53:03

Right trying to say it's so complicated you have to understand all this commentary and church history.

53:09

The Bible is just simple I think the Bible is I think I think the gospel is so simple Yeah, when you look to Jesus and trust in him alone, you're saved.

53:18

Amen. I Actually believe they have a more complicated the system right in order to be saved they would actually say there's five parts in order to be saved and in this the hidden six is

53:29

Continue a holy life, right and I'm like that that is an unbearable burden

53:36

Identical to what the Pharisees taught right Jesus saying no my yoke is easy. Yes.

53:41

I have done it all trust in me Mm -hmm. And so when we want to talk about simple, oh my goodness

53:48

It doesn't get more simple than looking to Jesus right trusting in him Alone not resting in yourself and trusting in things this world

53:55

And I think problem is they hear us talk about this gospel of grace so much and then they say well

54:01

I guess you don't have to go do anything that's what Paul was saying in Romans 6 right because he is preaching a gospel of grace for the

54:09

Basically the first five chapters of Romans, right? Remember Romans 5 1 that we have been justified by faith and not in peace with God.

54:17

Yeah, right Yeah, and so he anticipates an objection Well, I guess I can just go live it up in grace or go live it up in sin because grace is gonna abound

54:26

Yep, if you've tasted the grace of God in your life, you don't want to live in sin. You've been changed, right?

54:33

and so I Think a lot of people struggle with this idea that I can't do any works to be saved now

54:40

They will throw out the term obedience I want to talk about this works and obedience are not identical You have to define what obedience is you have to define what works because they're not the same right you can be obedient from the

54:49

Heart obedient means to be in agreement with to submit and when we say be obedient from the heart to submit from the heart

54:56

We're talking about faith right obedience does not always entail that you're getting up and doing something, right?

55:02

That's important because they will say an obedient faith. Yes, and amen Can you give me a passage like to reference the distinction where we would see that as different?

55:10

So we would we would go to all the necessary terms first and foremost. Okay, there's actually a passage that's worth noting

55:17

I think it's Hebrews 11 verse 8 because it talks about by faith Abraham obeyed and it goes into the context that he left the land of the

55:25

Ur of Chaldeans. Yeah Like yes, this is so good by faith Which justifies a person?

55:33

Yep And that's the context flow Hebrews 11 flows out of the last two verses of Hebrews 10 where it talks about The just shall live by faith quoting

55:41

Habakkuk 2 for right the just shall live by faith is a Old Testament Concept meaning those by faith are justified and now they live to demonstrate that faith, right?

55:51

The Hall of Faith shows us all of those saints of old that great cloud of witnesses that have came before us

55:56

Modeling that yeah, so yes someone that's obeyed from the heart by faith and is justified They're also going to be doing obedient works that are sanctifying that demonstrate this to the world

56:08

So that's a verse where yeah Obedient faith. Yes, but it's faith It's it's faith that's from the heart that justifies us

56:17

Yes And that's why to me the real debate that we had was understanding the terms justification and sanctification

56:24

Mm -hmm, because that's huge right they are not talking about the same things one is judicial right one is settled

56:29

By our faith in Christ and what he accomplished a legal transaction happens. It's such a beautiful gospel

56:36

Yes, what takes place God declaring us right and then doesn't just say in good luck

56:41

Yeah, he gives us his Holy Spirit right and that's another huge distinction with Church Christ I'm starting to learn is the

56:47

Holy Spirit is devoid in the life of the Christian as they know it But what Scripture does teach us in Philippians 1 6 he began a good work in us

56:55

This is the work of the Spirit in life. He actually brings us to completion. Yeah, he indwells us the Bible tells us right

57:01

Yep, so obedient works are so important, but that's not what justifies us before correct

57:07

So I'll let you chime in there's there's a lot of terms and definitions that do need to be hashed out right so So let's kind of set the the plate here

57:19

You've already kind of touched on it, but expound upon their perspective of justification

57:24

Because they're saying that we're misrepresenting them They are big and what we're doing is graining their position and bringing it to its logical conclusion

57:32

That is called a reductio ad absurdum. We're not just Misrepresenting you at the outset. We're saying no no we're granting that you believe in the

57:39

New Testament Scriptures But you notice I tried to do this in the debate I tried to ask Brock for his understanding of Acts 2 38 and he said let me give you my interpretation

57:49

And he simply read the verse Now I hope everyone understands that just reading a Bible passage is not giving its interpretation right why why else will we you need preachers and teachers?

57:59

Absolutely, I mean we need scholars. Why would we need people that are gifted in those areas that God has called? Yeah, and I want to I want to make this point.

58:08

It's a double standard It's a double standard what Brock was trying to accomplish and I get that he's rallying the troops right

58:13

I get that That's probably what he says in the pulpit as he continues to explain text right, but in debate

58:19

I've had so many people tell me that that was absurd yes, because it is yeah You don't just say the verse means what it means because there's other things that I could like I have it opened up here to John 3 3 16 so we're all familiar with for God so loved the world that he gave his only

58:36

Son and That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

58:43

I Want to and looking back. I wish I could have been like this verse says what it says right?

58:48

It's so clear that you have to believe and that's how you get eternal life and right perish right

58:53

But they would say oh, but let's go up earlier in the context and look at verse 5 That says being born of water and spirit

59:00

And we'd say your standard says it says what it says and I'm showing you this says what it says

59:06

And why don't you just believe it? Why are you trying to go up early in the con now? This is the thing we ought to look at context That's why

59:11

I don't approach this conversation like that because I would say let's let's go back early in the context

59:16

Let's see what Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about why he said what he said right? But a lot of people just told this is where I just praise

59:23

God because I look about you know back at the debate I'm just man. I didn't really expose the double standard that was being used hmm, but everyone knew it

59:30

Yeah, everyone understands. That was the logical conclusion. It's a logical clue right right so Trying to think what you originally asked me no it just laying out what their their opinion their view of Justification would be so Brock did agree with the definition now

59:48

He he started agreeing with me too much, and he knew it because I was just like what is your definition of justification?

59:53

He said be to be declared righteous. I said from anything and he said elaborate I'm like gladly to be declared righteous from the penalty of sin right and to be justified just as if we never sin

01:00:05

He said sure So they that's a proper definition. Yeah, but it's really similar to Roman Catholicism now.

01:00:12

This is interesting I'm learning to that the Church Christ deny original sin, so I don't believe in what's called baptismal

01:00:19

Regeneration like a change of nature happens at some point right Roman Catholicism believes that when you come out of the water and really it's a sprinkling then there's a baptismal region

01:00:29

Changing of the nature right Church Christ since they did not original sin then there doesn't need to be a change of nature right so And this isn't to misrepresent, but granting their position what

01:00:39

I've concluded at the end is they believe in a baptismal Justification right and Brock affirmed that yeah, you come out of the water all of your past sins are forgiven

01:00:49

Which is why they they had a problem the time that we met and I referred to their thought processes

01:00:54

Baptismal regeneration they wanted to make sure that that was clear that they don't believe that I don't and I think that's more consistent

01:01:01

Baptismal regeneration because you've got clear passages that talk about we when we're in Christ.

01:01:06

We are a new net We are new creation right right. We're a new creature, and then you have Paul explicitly talking about how

01:01:13

Through the renewing and washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit and Titus 3 5 yes

01:01:20

And then here in John 3 yep, that's what Jesus is getting at with right Demas So the fact that they want to downplay

01:01:27

To be regenerate or regeneration. It's like man. There's so many scriptures Yeah And I did get

01:01:32

Brock to admit because I was talking to him about Romans 8 8 about those in the flesh cannot please

01:01:38

God Right I don't think he understood me. I'm not saying that to be mean Don't think he understood my argument because I get that he was camping out in this two verses in Romans 6 right

01:01:47

I'm saying those In the flesh how can they do anything to please God like getting baptized because they are an unregenerate man

01:01:54

Yes, that does not have the spirit. They're walking in the futility of their mind, and they are a war Hostile against God that's the context yep.

01:02:01

How can they please God like getting baptized? Yeah, I don't think he understood But the point the regeneration is the key right that's what regeneration is a biblical concept

01:02:10

Yes, and he did say well you're regenerate you come out of water I'm and I'm over I didn't address it, but that is baptismal regeneration that they told me they rejected right right

01:02:19

So there's a lot going on there, and I was very out on Trey Fisher's show

01:02:26

I got to explain that there was someone at the end of the debate asking me questions on the other side Yep, they felt my argument.

01:02:32

They said how do you answer that question then because you believe and Romans 10 9 about this believing from the heart

01:02:38

How does that happen if you're an unbeliever, and I'm like right? I'm so glad someone asked me that Because I want to answer that and I did want to talk about James 2 and things like that The point is the

01:02:48

Holy Spirit has to bring you from death to life right generate your heart So you see your need for Christ that you're convicted over your sin that you would repent and put your faith in Christ Right because you would be regenerate

01:02:59

Then these things would start happening as results an instantaneous miracle. Yep. It's the Holy Spirit that initiates it turns the lights right now

01:03:06

It's so good. You know that leads me to another question, and this is kind of going off topic But I think it can help clarify

01:03:15

Maybe how some people that are in the Church of Christ movement view Baptist and why it's hard for them to make the distinction because we've got this question a lot is

01:03:25

Then how is the sinner's prayer or how is? you

01:03:32

Conjuring up faith the way Baptist typically refer to it. How's that different isn't that a work and where do you draw the line there?

01:03:40

Yes, I'm glad you bring this up because I do get this question And you know I tell them they're right the sinner's prayer would be at work, right?

01:03:47

That's not what saves a person right and literally I get the eyes open like I've never heard of this Yeah, like what do you wait a second?

01:03:53

Are you really Baptist? Yeah? Yeah, I've had people outside Church of Christ even asked me that and I'm like it's not a work.

01:04:00

Yeah, not only is it not a work It's not in Scripture But that's another topic we see prayer But it's flowing from a changed heart right and so I think what's what's important to emphasize to everybody is that Confessing with your mouth that confession starts first at the heart

01:04:15

Jesus says out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks Yes So you can't separate the mouth from the heart in the sense that oh, but you got to save the right incantation the right

01:04:27

Yeah, the right formula like no no Confessing with the mouth means that you love Christ.

01:04:33

Yeah, and it's just pouring out of you right, and you will be saved Yes, that saved is really in the context is pointing to your justification even says then the one who believes in his heart is justified

01:04:41

Present tense yep, that's why in the debate I just want to throw this in there because in my study for this I don't know if I've ever thought of this before or just in passing

01:04:50

But the Apostle Paul when he was Saul of Tarsus confessed Jesus as Lord Yep, as resurrected before his baptism, and I just thought

01:04:58

I've why have I never looked at Acts 22 in this line Yes, Jesus of Nazareth He come he said who are you

01:05:06

Lord and he invoked the divine name curious back in Exodus chapter 3 where Yahweh was talking to Moses right and I thought because when you look at Acts 9

01:05:16

All it says is who are you Lord not that's what I started thinking I was like he's already he knows he's talking to the

01:05:22

Lord right right yeah leaves it But I thought man, but he doesn't necessarily know it's Jesus. Yeah as he's confessing it, but Acts 22

01:05:31

Then he says I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting who who was perfect who died yep

01:05:37

Yeah, now is resurrected right and then Paul says what must I do Lord yep? He knows exactly he's talking he is right

01:05:44

That's why in Galatians 1 he received the gospel not from man But from Jesus and this was interesting from Brock And I tried not to press him on too many things because I noticed he was getting mad and frustrated

01:05:53

Yeah, and what he said afterwards is he wanted to basically quit the cross -examination. He was not going he said this

01:05:59

It was not going the way that he wanted that he wanted to stop. Yeah Blaming that was that was really really hard a lot of the questions were being aimed towards you

01:06:09

And and I think it he felt like maybe it gave you more of a platform to continue to communicate

01:06:16

Well, I was very intentional with discussing the debate rules, and I want to remind everybody he had the same rules that I had yeah

01:06:24

And had up to two minutes without interruption when I asked him a question he had up to two right

01:06:29

But it seemed like he was sufficient was just saying the Bible says what it said You know he really and I know we're getting off -topic a little bit here, but but no it's it's good

01:06:38

I think people are interested in this stuff He wanted you to Only reference those two verses like you said earlier he wanted you to take them out of context the way he was and Only answer those two without referencing the verses before the verses after the context the whole

01:06:58

Biblical narrative driving towards how we can interpret Scripture a basic hermeneutic

01:07:05

He he wanted you to answer those questions, and he felt I think maybe like he had a silver bullet that's why

01:07:11

I want to get away from baptism that if if I'm if I can only reference these two verses of Course it seems like it says what you're saying it says sure, but it's easily

01:07:23

Debunked by addressing the context and the verses before and after Can I mention a few things with the context of those two verses?

01:07:30

Because I felt blessed in my study time, and I remember texting and calling you like oh, man I yeah,

01:07:35

I've discovered not that it's new with me, but I've yeah because Brock told me in our interactions

01:07:40

He was looking at those two verses, and I didn't ask him to tell me that yeah Just the more we talked and I explained he was just telling me his thoughts, and we were very cordial and kind yeah

01:07:49

He told me is his argument rest on those two verses So I just want to mention a few things when I first was reading those verses

01:07:55

And that and our audience can go look them up. It's Romans chapter 6 verses 17 and 18 right

01:08:01

There's a phrase that says obedient from the heart and that started standing out to me

01:08:07

I thought man I want to capitalize on this because we believe in obedient faith will manifest itself

01:08:13

But obedient faith is a heart that loves Christ and that obedient heart is faith

01:08:19

And then that's the thing that justifies us before God in the early chapters of Romans right so I know he's gonna talk about that then

01:08:28

The next verse verse 19 talks about that that obedient heart leads to sanctification right and I noticed that Sanctification is only mentioned two times in the whole book of Romans There is a form sanctified.

01:08:41

I think in chapter 16, but Sanctification is mentioned two times, and they're both mentioned in Romans chapter 6

01:08:48

That is huge you could say the majority of Romans 6 is talking about sanctification right not justification

01:08:54

They there's an initial point of contact when you're justified your mission initially positionally sanctified as well

01:09:01

That's why I look to other verses like first Corinthians 611 There's a close relationship between Justification sanctification the moment you're justified you are also set apart right right, but sanctification is ongoing yep, right

01:09:15

So I knew I wanted to talk about Sanctification and that's probably one of the biggest positive feedback

01:09:21

I've gotten from a lot of people saying you Hammered that point home right that it's about sanctification right it doesn't stop there

01:09:27

Because the proposition was that we are basically The New Testament teaches that we are there's liberty from the penalty of past sins right well

01:09:38

Paul mentions Penalty in connection to a sin in Romans chapter 1 so Paul is giving us a definition of penalty.

01:09:46

It's judicial Yep, it earns wages right right you get what you deserve

01:09:51

Romans 6 23 the wages of sin is death right so the penalty of sin we we

01:09:58

By faith alone in Christ when we faith apart from works That is what sets us free from the penalty of sins.

01:10:07

That's what declares us innocent no longer guilty of death So I knew that I would need to bring that out because Romans 6 talks about the reign and dominion of sin right

01:10:16

And you think about it, and this is something else. I want to talk about too because After the debate I'm sure they get to go back and think through it's hard when you're in the moment.

01:10:23

Oh absolutely things But they are starting to say well Jeremiah says that since you're justified then you have to be sanctified

01:10:31

So you can be justified, and you don't have to choose to be sanctified Nope, that's not right.

01:10:38

That is right. There's an initial point of contact number one And when you're justified you now are a slave not to sin yes

01:10:46

Do you are a slave to righteousness Jesus in John chapter 8 he talks about whoever sins is a slave to sin you got that?

01:10:52

Bondage I love that illustration that where you're chained to the wall right yeah, you're a slave to sin

01:10:58

You're in bondage to your sin right, but when the Son sets you free you're free indeed You're free indeed, and you're free to serve him you are now a slave of righteousness.

01:11:06

There's no condemnation anymore That's what it says like an ending to it This is why I want to encourage people when you're in Christ when you're justified

01:11:13

You are a slave to righteousness, and you war against the reign and dominion of sin

01:11:19

That's in this world and then in your flesh Yes, you're not a slave to it you right instant right when you're a slave to sin that means you love it

01:11:26

Yes, you're not seeking the things of God right and so they were just saying you can be justified and still a slave of sin

01:11:31

I just thought you know I'm not mad at him. Yeah, just don't know it's interesting How they can reference a slave to sin and still not believe in original sin?

01:11:41

Right well in Romans 5 goes deep into how we all died and Adam And we have been declared sinners by that act of that one man, but by the one act you're laughing

01:11:53

So I can't wait to hear what you're yeah, go ahead finish it, but there's there's two federal heads

01:11:58

We're either Adam yep, or you're in Christ right you can be declared righteous by your faith in the second right so go ahead better Adam the better your wife

01:12:07

Just said are you saying baptism is required for salvation? We've talked about this so many times dude.

01:12:13

What's happening in your home. Are you busy with so many debates? You're not able to disciple your own home. I just want to say

01:12:19

I have the best wife on planet Earth Ali is definitely my better half, and you know what you've heard me say that she's actually the better 75 %

01:12:27

Yeah, relationship. Well. I think that I think that's probably pretty accurate So I want to mention one more point before we move on okay six now

01:12:39

I've had some time to sit on this now. I was studying a lot in those two verses that Brock was was going to try to defend now

01:12:49

It says to that standard of teaching depending on which translation you read at that form of doctrine

01:12:56

He thought if he could prove that that form means a visible sign That he was a debate.

01:13:02

There's something tangible. Yeah, it's it's external right yeah And I think he's wrong now.

01:13:08

I didn't want to get lost in the weeds in this I wanted to and I had some really good advice someone gave me after they heard the Proposition and as JD Martin by the way if he ever listens to this he said let

01:13:17

Brock confuse everybody with the proposition right be crystal Clear yes, you tell them that this is about water. This is what it's about is not what saves an individual

01:13:25

Well, he definitely did not want to go down that route by the way. I have to say this your wife Just said no exclamation point exclamation point.

01:13:33

I was responding to someone so I misread it Ali girl I'm so sorry Okay, so Yeah, there's

01:13:46

Adam. He says Ali was asking Travis. Sorry. I'm watching all the comments, and I'm getting distracted watch the comments

01:13:51

I will yeah, not engage like this what I was saying was that he didn't want to go down that route

01:13:56

He did not want to define and they kept saying we don't need to define works We just have these two verses here that that that means that whatever there is a work

01:14:05

So I want to say this because it didn't get brought out in the debate So he thought if he could prove that form of doctrine that standard of teaching means an external

01:14:13

Visible sign, and I knew what he would do. That's the same Greek word where? Jesus had scars on his hand yes

01:14:21

Thomas went and touched yes, so in their mind. That's that's external. Yeah, we win This is the deal

01:14:28

That's actually not even talking about works right now the reason why I went along with it is because the context is about sanctification now

01:14:34

Here's what that X. This is what this external form symbol is talking about the visible teaching

01:14:40

Yeah, that God has given to his people right And that would include justification by faith apart from works right, but it would also include all the works of sanctification that come after it

01:14:51

So work still fit, but the the visible The the symbol there that that's visible and external is the teaching that God has given to the

01:15:01

Saints yes And so he thinks that it's talking about baptism, and I'm saying it actually doesn't act it

01:15:08

I didn't want people to get lost in that right because I would give up time having to explain that Instead of talking about so much more because you notice another thing

01:15:16

Brock said was I never negated his proposition I would like to know from him if he thinks I attempted to because if he just says well you attempted to then

01:15:22

I'm saying Great that was that's the deal yeah Versus you just didn't even try at all right because I feel like of my 10 -minute rebuttal

01:15:29

I spent five minutes half of it negating it talking about all those kind of points You negated it at least four times.

01:15:36

Yeah at least I counted in my rebuttal I Just spent the second half talking getting everybody to start thinking about the water baptism text right talk about acts 238 right and then mark 16 yes with my remaining yeah,

01:15:48

I think that you know as we've had time to really set on this which we had hoped to do This debrief two weeks ago right and then the weather you couldn't get out of your house with the ice

01:15:59

But but as we've thought about this and as we've looked back, it's really struck me

01:16:07

That the fact that we are on two different stratospheres Right I know that this is philosophical in nature a little bit here

01:16:15

But I think the reason that they don't believe you answered is Because I don't

01:16:20

I think they're blind they're dead in their trespasses and sins right and I don't think they can understand

01:16:25

True salvation as to how you laid it out as to why? You negated his proposition and you negated it numerous times and everyone who was a believer in there saw it right and so I think that that's really what it boils down to is because they're not able to see it and You did an excellent job at addressing the context of those two verses and we could probably if you would like to we can

01:16:52

We can do more I can pull it up on the screen and you can lay it out again. That's up to you maybe we'll do another video on that, but you negated it at the at the at the debate and they can't see that and the

01:17:03

Reason is is they only can see from their worldview. They can only see from their context and again, they're blind

01:17:11

They're dead in their trespasses and sins and they're not able to see and so I encourage you

01:17:17

Brock and Aaron and anyone else that that felt like you were involved in that we are praying for you and we are praying that God would illuminate your mind and Heart to the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ and and we long for that day

01:17:30

Hey, man, can you imagine the day that we get a call? I honestly think there's a bit of an intellectual part of Brock I've been watching him that I think he knows there's something more to what we're saying and And I don't know.

01:17:44

Maybe maybe he's masking it. Maybe maybe not Maybe I'm just reading into something, but I really like Brock And I wrote

01:17:52

I love Aaron. I guess how he is really upset Yeah, Aaron was a little more visibly upset and and I but I like both of them.

01:18:00

I really I genuinely like you guys But I seem to me that Brock was really

01:18:06

It was almost especially in y 'all's conversations before almost like some things were like, okay

01:18:11

There's he's making some sense here and our system isn't quite landing So I pray maybe the

01:18:17

Holy Spirit's working on him and maybe he'll see it But unless the Holy Spirit works on him, he can't see it and he's incapable.

01:18:23

I know Aaron has to know they need to Think deeper on some things because when you outright say

01:18:31

I don't have to define works. He said on his own Oh my goodness, because yeah, you know as a teacher you have to define words words have meaning

01:18:39

We don't get to make them up right told me a long time ago But when he just starts like I really think he'll probably take those videos down because other people be like you can't say that Okay, because one of his last podcast he just says

01:18:51

I don't have to fall into your trap and to find works It's not a trap. Yeah, I'm asking you. How do you account for the same things that I'm looking at?

01:18:59

I'm not trying to trap anybody. No. Yeah, I'm just trying to have a conversation like you said though I mean unless God yeah begins that good.

01:19:06

I guess you can only understand it if you're a reformed theologist Allie Allie makes t -shirts.

01:19:12

No, I really want it. I want one. I want one for sure. That's funny Okay, so we've kind of answered some of these questions that we were thinking through in preparation, you know, what's so hard and complex?

01:19:25

About trying to to work for your own salvation and keep your salvation, right?

01:19:30

Cuz they believe that you can lose it, right, right. Okay, so that to me

01:19:36

Is far more complex than anything we've represented and it's and it's hard It's hard to work your way to God and to work to keep stuff and in principle

01:19:48

That's identical with all false religions of the entire world Yes, I almost in the debate in my closing and I had someone tell me by the way they're just like in your closing statements there was such a vast difference between how

01:20:01

Brock was reminding everyone that I Didn't do I was supposed to do and let the record show that was where I'm at And then

01:20:08

I get up there and say I love you Yeah, right, right And I just want to end with a few light is shining man that love is coming up And all

01:20:15

I can tell people is I truly love them right and the people that were there even I was getting mean mugs Yeah, and I kind of expect some of that but it'll throw you off in the moment, right?

01:20:24

So well, they were they were a little upset like, you know They accused us of calling names when we said the cult thing we've talked about that Somebody told me that they said that I was manipulative

01:20:34

Yeah, I think that's that's interesting. I'm I would be curious to know Some specifics that I think it was the whole taken cult dent like leaving it up and then taking it down I don't got you something else that is so that's their whole point

01:20:48

But that is it's so deceptive and then they take all these comments down, right? We feel for the people right that are in the

01:20:54

Church of Christ. Yeah denomination exactly But we are calling the the false doctrine, yeah into question there's so much involved when

01:21:03

I talk to some of these people that There is a weight and a burden on them to be perfect all the time because you can lose that salvation

01:21:12

Man, the the grace and and gospel of Jesus Christ Right, right. What did what did

01:21:18

John write and first Johnny says? I write these things so that you may know that you may know that you're standing in Christ that and in Christ said

01:21:26

All the Father gives me I've not lost one of them You know, you can't be stripped from the Father's hand.

01:21:31

You cannot lose your salvation and I think this Theology is accepted because they look around at some of the other

01:21:37

Baptist more of a pragmatic approaches more of a finianism

01:21:43

Baptist and and they say well this person prayed your sinner's prayer did all the stuff and they seem like they were

01:21:50

Christian But then they turn around and they just live like the devil and they do this So so they must have lost their salvation.

01:21:56

How can you say once saved always saved? We would absolutely deny That that there was any salvation at all that ever happened because a sane words mean nothing

01:22:08

It's like what Jesus said. He said many will say to me, you know, didn't I cast out demons in your name?

01:22:13

Didn't I do these great mighty works in your name? He says depart from me for I never knew you you workers of iniquity It's about if Jesus knows us not necessarily that we know

01:22:21

Jesus and we'll know Jesus if Jesus knows us And he calls us but but that I think is where some of the confusion lies with some of these people is they're like man

01:22:30

This is no different than Baptist. It's actually in my opinion and I'm gonna say something wild the finianism the the the pragmatism

01:22:40

Baptist more of a How I'm not even gonna go down that road but that type of Baptist Compared to Church of Christ the

01:22:51

Church of Christ theology is probably more consistent It is so we deny that Categorically, but that's not what the because that's not what the

01:23:02

Bible teaches Scripture teaches that once you are saved once you've been regenerated and you've been justified

01:23:09

That is a forever thing and you cannot lose it. And so what it what what is a

01:23:15

An apostate right, right Well, it's the it's the soil that Jesus that God that Jesus talked about right some some of the seed lands on good soil and gets root has root in Christ and then and then grows up and produces fruit and some rams lands on rocky soil and Sprouts up quickly, but is quickly burned out by the

01:23:34

Sun and the elements because it never had any root I think it's 1st John 2 19 that says you have some people that were of us

01:23:42

But they proved that they were never really of us and manifest in themselves to the world because they went out from us

01:23:48

They went out from us. Yes, they had the spirit of Antichrist, right? Jesus said you're either for me or against me

01:23:53

Yes, and so you got people that name the name that that verse you read earlier when they say Lord Lord Yeah, right think about Lord.

01:24:01

They that's doctrine. They know that he is the divine Lord and it's Lord Lord There's a there's kind of a zeal with that.

01:24:07

Yeah, but it's not trusting Can you speak to that because you mentioned that earlier about Paul calling

01:24:13

Jesus Lord Can you speak to the distinction between those two? Yes Because as I was really studying this out and getting excited and reaching out to Facebook forums on someone just said well

01:24:23

Just because you say Lord Lord doesn't mean you're saved right Matthew 7 Yeah, and I because I was getting tons of people saying oh my why do we not see more works in this?

01:24:32

I was like, I'm glad people are like joining along, but I need someone to like challenge it, right? And so the point is it's not just because you say

01:24:40

Lord Lord. Yeah, right Let's say you do say that way even the demons believe in tremble There's even action attached right people have the intellectual sin and even a type of zeal.

01:24:48

Yeah, right Yeah in themselves and mighty works that they do But what's beautiful about the Apostle Paul is we know he is saved right that's good distinction and so my point is

01:24:58

We look at the entirety of Paul's life and we know that Christ saved him, right? Right, and so we're saying the initial point of that was when he confessed

01:25:06

Jesus is Lord. Yes, so that's the distinction We look at the life that comes later right in light of someone saying that so you so that's what

01:25:13

James 2 is all about Right that type of said faith Does not produce works and is therefore dead.

01:25:20

Yes a changed heart one that loves Christ You're going to demonstrate to the world

01:25:26

Yeah You're going to be like what Jesus said let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works

01:25:31

Why not to glorify yourself not to please men the father in heaven father in heaven to give glory

01:25:36

Yes, so that's that's the point with the Apostle Paul on the road of Damascus. That's the initial point of his

01:25:43

Salvation right? No, that's so good. So, um, you know, we probably don't want to go a lot longer

01:25:48

We're about an hour and a half right now, but I do want to like ten minutes Yes So there's some other verses that would be good to explain that we put down here that we were thinking through Romans 6 3 through 4 so I'm gonna put this up on the screen

01:26:01

So as you read through it if you want to go to reference another passage You want me to pull it up? Let me know and give me a moment to get to it so people can see

01:26:08

I Really was thinking we would talk about this because we were I knew the proposition was going to be built in verses 17 and 18 so I thought surely that he's gonna have to connect it back to baptism earlier and So I do want to look at these

01:26:24

But let's try to look we always look for context and with the students at church.

01:26:29

I ask him What is context and they you know what they say con and text and I'm like, what does that mean?

01:26:35

I was like you knuckleheads. You're not wrong when you say that but con means with So what are those surrounding texts with the text?

01:26:43

Yes in view. Yes So that's why you'd never want to build a theology off one verse, right? And this

01:26:48

I mean, I think people laughed at me in the debate when I just said you can't build a theology off one verse

01:26:53

You gotta look at the surrounding context. You gotta look to scripture alone and all scripture Well people laugh at the reason they do that is because they're hermit

01:26:59

If I'm not if I'm not mistaken their hermeneutic is that it's the Cini right the

01:27:05

C E N I What's it called? Let me pull it up here. There's a Command example

01:27:13

Necessary inference. Okay, so I believe if I'm not mistaken that is their go to hermeneutic and so that's what leads them to see a command in scripture take it out of context and Then a necessary inference so I may be distorting that a little bit if I am somebody correct me on that But and when

01:27:33

I studied a little bit I wanted to know and they do not use a grammatical historical hermeneutic

01:27:39

They don't like that. That's why they don't like to go to the original languages That's why they don't want to deal with the let me just say real quick with the grammatical historical

01:27:47

Method of interpretation is we're saying we're asking the question What did the original authors mean by what they said right and how did the original audience

01:27:56

How would they have understood what was being said right exactly do that by looking at original languages?

01:28:02

Yeah, and looking at context correct, and that's huge. I don't know how you study scripture now.

01:28:08

I'm at any level To preach and to teach without doing that and otherwise you end up taking like he did the two verses and build an entire doctrine around this

01:28:19

This out of context My dad was at the debate which was awesome, and he he said something he liked that I said he's he was like I wish you would have said it more

01:28:27

German and I laughed We have a great relationship But I was trying to explain Brock the importance of context and explaining because someone could say the

01:28:36

Bible says There is no God Everyone I said it. I'm and it got it got silent in the room when you said that everybody's getting ready to jump up and point

01:28:46

You know they're already thinking it, but they would have said it yeah Yeah, and the whole verse in Psalm 14 one says the fullest said in this heart right there is no

01:28:54

God Yeah, so that just models. You can't just look at one phrase or verse you have to see you know its entire content

01:29:00

That's what it's all about and you can't just say John 3 16 says what it says right, and you can't contest it right?

01:29:06

I actually from Baptist leaning crowds. That's the conversations. I get with other doctrine right, and I'm like Nicodemus Similar to a church of Christ they would want to do that there

01:29:18

I'm saying let's do that and even understanding language just because of the limited nature of the English language

01:29:23

You know I've used it before and I'm just gonna say it out here for many people. This is one of the more

01:29:29

Obvious ones and it hits home with everybody you take the Hebrew language you look at the Old Testament The Hebrew language had seven words for love

01:29:38

Mmm seven different words for love we have one I love coffee.

01:29:44

I love my wife Erica Those are two very different loves so when we see the word love in our

01:29:49

English translation We have to know the context of the original language to be able to even begin to comprehend

01:29:55

What kind of love right that text is speaking about and that's just one example of?

01:30:02

Tremendous amount so we need those scholars, and we need that reference so I know we're getting off base here But let's look at it.

01:30:08

You said Romans Romans 6 Romans 6 yeah starting in verse 3. We've got it on the screen Yes, and so let me even begin at verse 1 which we've already alluded to this

01:30:17

And you gotta think Paul just built his doctrine on justification apart from works

01:30:22

I think we can rightly say by faith alone right that's key because the objection is saying well I can just go live however.

01:30:29

I want that's it's important for how baptism is gonna be using this text Paul says What shall we say then are we to continue in sin that grace may abound by no means

01:30:38

I love that That's one of the strongest things that he says in the Greek by no means let it never be How how can we who died to sin still live in it?

01:30:49

Do you not know that all of us who were have been baptized into Christ were baptized into his death?

01:30:55

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead

01:31:03

By the glory of the Father we too might walk in newness of life Now we keep going, but this is sufficient to explain a couple things here for one and This is an interesting conversation.

01:31:16

I have with Church Christ all the time because they will say Baptism always means a wet immersion right and I'm like really

01:31:24

Because when we look at Baptizo or Baptize or Baptize moss Mm -hmm that you see that there's different definitions for that and it tells you because you got to have the examples in mind

01:31:34

You got to have the the Greek word in mind Yeah And the context because context will determine which syntactic domain of the definitions to use right you don't just say well

01:31:43

Here's one time where is used over here, and then immediately that's what it is like for everything else to the Church Christ a lot

01:31:49

I think Baptism and acts is talking about water baptism

01:31:54

I know there's dispute about that when you do look at church history right and there's some merit because you got the Holy Spirit being

01:31:59

At work right, but you see them coming up up out of the water right now like that's that's awesome context

01:32:05

Especially in this narrative book, and I think you made that clear at the debate also. Yeah, yeah letting them know I'm not just cray -cray.

01:32:11

Yeah. Yeah all the time yeah Yeah, just sometimes just sometimes, but what you see in Paul's doctrinal letters

01:32:17

And I believe it's 1st Corinthians 10 verse 2 where you had the people of Israel being baptized into Moses Yep, yep the context there.

01:32:26

Yeah the water water. We pull that up. What verse is that believe? It's 1st Corinthians 10 verse 2 if I had

01:32:32

Adam Carmichael this dude is like he he's been he's been on here talking to us Hey, Adam.

01:32:37

What's going on, man? Yeah, okay, so verse 2 we see here and all were baptized into Moses.

01:32:42

Okay. This is this is important This is I mean I never say anything is a silver bullet because you got to always look at context

01:32:49

But here's a good example We're being baptized into Moses is not talking about a wet immersion

01:32:55

That's right people will say oh look is the verse say there's sea around Right can you read the whole verse yeah?

01:33:01

And all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea right so we should be thinking about the narrative of Exodus right the parting of the sea and they were they were immersed into Moses's leadership

01:33:15

Yeah, and I think I did bring this out the debate I've had Church Christ before saying all you see water is around And I'm like they weren't they weren't in most immersed in it that was split right down the middle and they were not in the water

01:33:25

This demonstrates that immersion can be not only in the Greek definition that can be immersed into one's

01:33:32

Authority right and so that's key because he's doctrinally telling us this and then

01:33:37

I tell people when you look at 1st Peter when you look At Colossians you look here at Romans This is the context will bear this out also that we are being baptized into Jesus's authority yes

01:33:48

Okay, and then there is other examples in the gospel where baptism is in the context of suffering

01:33:53

Jesus talks about To James and John do you really think you can undergo the baptism that I can undergo yes

01:34:00

And so I'm just saying baptism doesn't always mean a wet immersion so Knowing that when we're looking at Romans 6.

01:34:07

This is a Doctrinal epistle yes, he is writing to people who've already been baptized right that is so important We're talking like Colossians 2 12 they've already been baptized so he's giving them the doctrine of what their baptism represents

01:34:20

Yep, I mean, that's so that's so important I can't stress that enough and I can actually go more and deeper into that because they're just saying well

01:34:28

How do you know it's a picture? I'm actually like Romans 6 and Colossians 2 actually are the text of me saying he's literally giving you the doctrine

01:34:34

Yes of what happened when you were immersed in Christ right and that your water baptism was a picture of that But here's the defeater when someone wants to go to Romans 6

01:34:45

So let's go back to Romans 6 here Which verse so we'll look once again at verses 3 4 and perhaps 5 okay?

01:34:55

We are there Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized in Christ were baptized into his death?

01:35:03

I want to pause I'm gonna say when did you die? Yeah, oh it was it was a spiritual death.

01:35:09

Yeah, okay, so we're talking about a spiritual truth here Physical Baptism because we're talking about a spiritual truth, but they don't but they don't agree to Spiritual death because they don't believe in original sin.

01:35:23

That's true but they would still have problem with this text because yeah, they just assume that All this happens in a water baptism right?

01:35:33

I'm saying okay, so you're talking about a physical baptism. Yep, and I'm saying okay Let's see if if there's any context clues that tells us.

01:35:39

This is physical right now, so I say when did you die? Because always it was a spiritual death yeah, and I'm like oh, yeah

01:35:47

It was it's talking about the spiritual truth of being immersed into Jesus's authority right and so the rest of context bears us out

01:35:54

Too we were buried therefore with him by baptism into death when were you buried?

01:36:00

Oh spiritual truth in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the

01:36:06

Father That we too might walk in newness of life So when were you raised? Physically oh, it's it's a spiritual raising right.

01:36:14

Yep Yep, and I love the phrase to walk in newness of life because that's sanctification Right. Yes Right has done in our life.

01:36:24

This sets the stage for this talking about sanctification in verse 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his we certainly

01:36:34

Be united with him in a resurrection like this. I'm like these are spiritual realities

01:36:39

Yes, the context of baptism here. That's good. So once again Context is always

01:36:46

King right you look before and what comes and you don't build a you don't build a theology on one verse

01:36:51

Isolated apart from the entirety. Yep. That's good. That's a good definition, and I think that could be helpful for Some of our listeners some people chiming in if you're if you're already a believer

01:37:02

This is a great passage to go to when speaking to your Church of Christ neighbors or co -workers It's a it's a good lesson for us to be able to remember that passage

01:37:11

It's Romans 6 3 & 4. So the next one we want to look at was Galatians 3 27

01:37:16

Yes, I'm so glad we're gonna look at this and it's funny. I talked a lot with Trey Fisher about the whole book of Galatians and so I love

01:37:28

Trey so much Seven so Galatians 3 27 so I'll read just the verse by itself and then you can see how

01:37:38

Some people would say it's it says what it says, right? Yes So for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ Now you got the whole

01:37:49

Church Christ's denomination movement and this says you got to be baptized in Christ. Yep So Galatians is so important to understand as a whole.

01:37:57

Yes. Okay, because we've even talked about Galatians 1 we have preaching a different gospel, right?

01:38:03

This is important principle Paul is rebuking the Judaizers for adding

01:38:09

Circumcision to the gospel, right? He's not then gonna turn around and say but you can add baptism to the gospel, right?

01:38:16

So what people just to think that helps us Realize that that's not what Paul is going to do and back in chapter 2 verse 16

01:38:24

We don't have to have it on the screen, but just to help kind of give some work there to 16. Sure to 16 So Paul is saying yet.

01:38:32

We know that a person is not Justified by the works of law, but through faith in Jesus Christ and then it kind of repeats himself

01:38:41

And that's how we're justified. And so the Church Christ's objection to something like this is will circumcision is a work of law

01:38:47

That's not the point right? The point is you can't do anything to earn your salvation, right?

01:38:52

I think as we're gonna see Galatians 3 is going to step into that right? But that's why passages like Ephesians chapter 2 8 9 and 10.

01:39:00

Yep lay that context There's no law in con in the context there, right? And then Romans 4 perhaps we'll get into I know we're already kind of going long

01:39:08

But that's actually gonna be key to this to like Romans 4 Like I'm so blessed that it's written the way that it is, right?

01:39:15

But basically Paul is making the point that you are justified by faith apart from works of law

01:39:21

Yes, and or gods of mine anything that you do so it's it's deep So anyways the same person's good all writing this that it were justified by faith apart from works of law right from circumcision, right?

01:39:33

He's not gonna contradict himself and say oh, but you can bring in baptism later So look at Galatians 3 verse 2

01:39:44

Me and Trey spent a long time talking about this because I thought man he's I mean, this is really a good point

01:39:49

Yeah, we're there Let me ask you only this Paul says did you receive the

01:39:56

Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Hmm this is huge because this is how

01:40:03

Jews are saved and this is how Gentiles are saved Yes, and it's by hearing it's hearing the gospel preached and believing it in your heart that new heart

01:40:11

Yeah, he's saying so how did you get the Spirit which is confirmation of your salvation? Yeah had nothing to do with what you did in relation to the law, but it's by hearing of faith and so with that in mind

01:40:23

Verse 11 says this is quoting Habakkuk 2 4 So this is a this is another thing the Church of Christ believed that people were saved differently in the

01:40:30

Old Testament, right? Now they'll say well you had to have an obedient faith. Yes, but as it carries the stuff out

01:40:36

You're doing different steps of what it looks like right like so you're saved differently And it's not just Church of Christ that feel that way a lot of Baptists are misunderstand how the how that we were under You know a covenant of works and not a covenant of grace, but go ahead

01:40:51

Yes, so verse 11 Paul is just repeating Habakkuk 2 4 now This is evident that no one is justifiable before God by law

01:40:59

What you can do in order to obtain standard by opening a list of do's and don'ts For the righteous shall live by faith

01:41:07

This is that Old Testament truth that justification is always right because we read in the the

01:41:13

ESV righteous That's just yes, that's the same Greek word there, but it's by faith right and we live to demonstrate that out

01:41:20

Yes, so we're building context and so then he goes into the law and the promise and so verse 24

01:41:26

You've preached on this or? The whole purpose of the law wasn't to say hey try to obey this really really well and keep your salvation, right?

01:41:35

That's the principle that Church Christ are holding on to they're not gonna say the old mosaic law They're gonna say the law of the

01:41:41

New Testament Christ, right and I'm saying It just breaks my heart because yes, this is literally legalism, right

01:41:49

Here's the same burden that they were carrying. Yes. So this is the purpose of law So then the law was our guardian or a schoolmaster.

01:41:57

I like a little King James. Yeah. Yeah, I will sprinkle it in there So then the law was our guardian until Christ came in order that we might be justified by faith, right?

01:42:07

But now that faith has come we are no longer under a guardian That's important because we're building up to the context here for as many of you

01:42:14

As we're backed only back up. So but now that faith has come we are no longer under a guardian for in Christ Jesus You were all sons of God Through faith.

01:42:25

Yes, and then in the next breath He says for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ when you

01:42:33

Came into connection with Christ by faith. Yes, you've been immersed with him

01:42:38

You have actually like you were reading with Martha earlier. Was it Martha? Yeah in John 11

01:42:43

Yes, we pass from death to life when we are in Christ by faith. Yep, right. Let's get it So that's the baptism.

01:42:49

He's talking about there that you've been baptized immersed into him, right? His death has become your death his newness of life is now your newness of life.

01:42:56

Yes, and this is the point This is the same for Jew and Gentile Greek, but there is neither

01:43:03

Jew nor Greek There is neither slave nor free there is neither there is no male or female for you are all one in Christ Jesus He's not gonna say

01:43:13

He's not gonna say well, you can't do The work of circumcision and then turn around and give a different set of commands to the people of Acts or whatever

01:43:22

But including baptism right the same gospel. Yes, that's so good, man That's a good breakdown there that trying to fly

01:43:30

I know it's a bit of a 10 ,000 foot overview and in the debate and I'll say this just really brief But another text of the

01:43:35

Church of Christ and I learned this as the more and more I interacted with them Yeah, they will say in Galatians 5 for this is a proof text of losing your salvation

01:43:42

You are severed from Christ you who would be just okay You are severed from Christ you who would be justified by the law you have fallen away from grace

01:43:53

They're saying so you can fall from grace. Yep I'm like, you know You have the gospel of grace and you are falling deviating from that and believing in a system of works righteousness

01:44:04

Right that is falling from the gospel of grace that he's already confirmed that context.

01:44:09

Yes Yes relations, so that's important. I was able to bring that out in the debate Well, that's huge too because that's what we're getting at with why we're addressing these issues

01:44:20

You know, we're not just trying to be divisive and cause cause ruckus and be problematic We like we said before our heart goes out to the people that are in this and true believers can be sucked into this

01:44:31

Like you just said like you just pointed out there in the book of Galatians that people can be deceived

01:44:38

Christians can be deceived and and that's the whole Purpose and point of our ministry in this and and this isn't the end

01:44:48

You with the apologetic dog your apologetics ministry Your heart is to reach out and really expose the darkness of the

01:44:58

Church of Christ in this community Because that that really is the the leading false gospel

01:45:04

I would say in this community There's more of them than there are of Jehovah's Witness or Mormons or anything like that There's really no ministries that are kind of geared to really expose the

01:45:14

Church of Christ I love Matt slick and calm He has a lot of really good articles and I love got questions and some of these ministries

01:45:21

But there's nothing out there. That's like or brother Trey's doing this to he's coming along with all of this, too

01:45:28

So this isn't gonna end. We're not just gonna let this die out We're we're coming after you false teachers

01:45:35

We're coming at you with everything we have because we believe that's what God God has called us to not just the

01:45:40

Church of Christ False teachers, but any false teacher that we see growing up in prominence We will go after with vengeance

01:45:47

Yeah And and we are not going to hold off and we're not gonna back off and we're okay with the persecution that comes with all

01:45:53

Of this we're okay with everyone saying that we're just being Indivisive and hateful and whatnot

01:45:59

We don't want that right, but we have to be obedient to God first and foremost above above anything else

01:46:05

But let me tell you what we are gonna do. We're gonna do it in love We are going to do it because anything that we do apart from love is like a clanging cymbal, right?

01:46:15

They can't hear our words that we're proclaiming, but we will say it with love.

01:46:20

So just know Aaron Dodson and Brock Kendall. We love you.

01:46:26

We care for you. We're praying for you We are praying for your families We're praying for for the people that are deceived under your false teaching and we're praying that you would repent or God would remove you from that And we will continue to expose that false doctrine.

01:46:41

There's a gentleman that's been been Commenting on here. I believe his name is Travis if I'm not mistaken, okay

01:46:47

Travis Thomas, okay, and then I believe that's the guy that Trey is debating soon.

01:46:52

Yes, man. I can't wait for that It's gonna be so good. It's gonna be on the gospel truth YouTube channel right now wasn't something positive about Travis real fast a lot of how

01:47:00

I've heard him carry himself Yeah, he's a very kind and respectful individual Yeah Now we're all gonna mess up at times but just I just I appreciate about him right him and my my buddy

01:47:11

Cameron Vogel They had an interaction on Travis's YouTube, okay, it was it was a good interaction nice I don't want people just to listen to short clips that perhaps aren't capturing the whole conversation go listen right conversation, right?

01:47:24

Right. So overall I appreciated Travis's demeanor. Yeah, well, that's good And and we can have some cordial conversations

01:47:31

But it doesn't change the fact that Travis is a false teacher and we need to warn people about it

01:47:36

We have to warn people of these false teachers, but we will do it in love and his ministry I think is proof with truth on YouTube.

01:47:44

Is it? Okay. I just see his name on here This is just his personal thing and we have a Jared Mayfield.

01:47:50

That's a buddy years, right? He says ever consider doing a debate over James to 14 through 26.

01:47:56

We talked about that earlier I love it. You guys spoke about it briefly in the cross -examination and Q &A.

01:48:02

That would be awesome Anybody that wants to have any more debates? I'm not your guy to debate This guy is so reach out to us we are all about having these and and they will be done cordially

01:48:14

I do want to tell people though. My heart firstly belongs to the local church. Yes So I've had people already reach out to me wanting to debate and just say hey

01:48:24

I think this the truth as they saw it suffered on the other side, right? They said we would like to sit up and I've just lovingly said

01:48:30

I appreciate you reaching out and being kind Yeah, but I have a lot of wonderful responsibilities here at 12 five church.

01:48:36

Yes, I love these people and You know, we're gonna be building a studio and I'll be able perhaps to be able to do more stuff

01:48:42

But I don't feel the need to just do as much of that as I possibly can I actually figured out day of the debate.

01:48:48

I have super limitations on what I can handle right? You know, I mean, yeah So definitely reach out to me

01:48:54

I'd like to if anything build a friendship and talk about things and then over time we can definitely talk about what that looks like If we want to do something online or in right like or something like that.

01:49:03

Well, that'd be great. And and yeah We have to take things As they come and God's gonna provide he's gonna open what doors and close what doors we need to close and we need to be wise in that but but if you are interested in this ministry if if you've never heard of twelve five church or Or if you've been interested in finding out more about us, you can go to twelve five church comm

01:49:24

That's the word twelve the number five church comm and you can reach out to us there on the website you can reach out to us here on Facebook on Instagram and We would love for you to come and see what what

01:49:36

God is doing we're we're a small church plant started at the end of 2020 and Started in our living room and God has blessed us with a location a building and and so Join us we meet every

01:49:49

Sunday at 10 a .m And we worship together and then we do what we call a koinonia feast.

01:49:54

It's a fellowship feast people bring tons of food There's always extra food So if you don't bring anything, don't worry about that, but come and stay with us and fellowship with us

01:50:02

We'd love to have you join us in that and then we have a Bible study every Wednesday night You teach the youth in here in the building and y 'all are going through the

01:50:12

Sermon on the Mount still we're almost done almost done It's been about a year. Y 'all are ahead of us on Sunday mornings because that's what we're doing on Sunday mornings

01:50:18

But then us adults We have somebody teaching Through first John and we kind of just started so that's 630 on Wednesday nights you are more than welcome to come we would love you

01:50:30

You will be accepted with open arms, even if you are a part of a different religion or group or not a

01:50:36

Christian at all We've had church requests come we have and be kind. Yes, just kind of curious and enjoyed it

01:50:42

Yeah and so We would love for you to come and be a part of it if you are a believer and you are looking for a

01:50:49

Bible believing Church if you're looking for a place that's going to be expositional

01:50:54

Go line by line through Scripture that is going to be intentional about discipleship. That is intentional with membership this may be the place for you and we would love for you to come and and join us and Just watch like our

01:51:09

Facebook page here and follow us to see more debates to see more events more things that that we will be doing because We pray that God gives us more opportunities

01:51:20

We just want to speak the truth and love and we want to equip the Saints for every good work

01:51:25

Right, and if people are interested in more debates if you go to my youtube channel Just Jeremiah Nortier or you go to the gospel truth with Marlon Wilson.

01:51:33

Yes. I've done other debates I think yes three other ones with one with the Mormon right one with the Greek Orthodox.

01:51:38

That was fun That was awesome. And then a Roman Catholic. Yes So now Church Christ and I'll be debating two

01:51:45

Roman Catholics next month on the authority of Scripture. I'm excited for that Well, hey, thank you for defending the truth

01:51:52

That's what God's called us to do and we will continue to do that We'll continue to call out these false teachers and we will continue to love on people

01:52:01

Especially especially the flock the sheep and there are a lot of sheep that are out there in some of these

01:52:07

On these false religions and and our heart goes out to you and we're praying for you

01:52:12

And we pray that God would bring you to a good Bible believing Church There's there's a handful handful of us small churches around some of our

01:52:20

Presbyterian friends out out near Bono We've got we've got a group.

01:52:25

We've got a good a group of believers that we have great fellowship with so If this isn't a place for you, we can we can guide you to somewhere else

01:52:33

So we're praying that God would continue to work in this Please reach out to us

01:52:38

If you have questions want to talk through some of these matters that we talked through today or tonight

01:52:44

Really felt like one of our elders meetings, didn't it? Yeah I feel like all we did was added the microphones and the lights and this was an elders meeting

01:52:50

Minus the praying together for everybody, but but we will do that afterwards. There you go So thank you for joining us

01:52:57

If you jumped in kind of midstream and want to check out the rest We're gonna keep this live feed up and we'll hopefully get it put up on our

01:53:03

YouTube page So go and follow our YouTube page so that you can kind of see Sermons videos teaching some things that we're trying to we're trying to be more intentional with that page sure, but go search us out twelve five church and We're we're praying for the

01:53:17

Saints and we're here to equip With the people that God brings our way so y 'all have a great night.