Baptism Debate Debrief

Well, welcome and thank you for joining us today. This podcast is a ministry of Twelve Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas, where we seek to gather and equip believers for every good work. My name is Nathan Hargrave.

I serve as the preaching elder here at Twelve Five, and I'm joined by my co-host, Jonesboro native, and my fellow elder here, Jeremiah Nortier. Well, hello, welcome. This is kind of our first video podcast thing that we're doing, right?

I think this is it.

All right.

Well, before we jump in, I know you're a Jonesboro boy. You are born and raised. I don't think you've left the area, right?

I've left a handful of times, but I mean, this is home, home for me.

This is home.

All right.

Well, then I got a question for you, because most of our people that are going to be chiming in, this is Jonesboro people, right? This is Northeast Arkansas. What is your favorite memory from growing up in Jonesboro?

That's a hard question. So I'm glad you actually gave me some time to think about this, because I love going to Craighead Park and so many things that my parents would take me. Rollerblading was a big one.

Going to Galactic Hurricane. People that have lived in Jonesboro for a long time, those were some fun memories there. But one of my favorite, funny memories that I will never forget, Nathan, is basketball was a big part of my life.

So we were playing in the NEA tournament against Jonesboro. We're Westside, so this was a huge basketball game. And Hunter Mickelson had the green light. He was basically the only one that could dunk a basketball.

And I'm like, I got to put on a show for 4 ,000 people here. So I had a fast break, and I missed a wide open dunk in front of 4 ,000 people. And coach snatched me in the game.

Pride coming before the fall.

Yes.

Oh, yeah. And he chewed me for three straight minutes.

I bet.

And I just remember thinking, oh, I'm so glad I got a break.

Oh, my goodness.

And when he was done, he was like, get back in there and quit being selfish.

Oh, my goodness. That's funny.

So I'll never forget that. But something else that I'll never forget with playing basketball for Westside was after every game that we won, my whole basketball team would make a circle around me, and I would start dancing.

Okay?

Okay.

That was just a thing that we did.

And over time... You shouldn't have been doing that here at church, right?

Okay?

You shouldn't have said that. You shouldn't have told me that.

Well, what is even funnier about it is I would have a lot of friends from other schools that come watch us play ball, and it was understood. My friends would join in the zoo crew with me, and we would dance.

That's funny.

That was just a package deal.

Okay.

We're going to have to try and search for a video of this. I'm sure there is.

Yes.

I'm sure there is.

That's hilarious.

Okay.

So your favorite Jonesboro memories are basketball. They're surrounded around basketball. That was kind of your thing, wasn't it?

Basketball. Believe it or not, baseball. I did track. I did tennis a lot with my brother and my mom. It was just sports all the time for me.

That is the opposite of me, because I have about zero athletic ability whatsoever.

I've seen you shoot a basketball before.

Exactly.

So you know exactly what I'm saying. The problem with it was I'm highly competitive also, and so no athleticism combined with not wanting to lose is a bad combo. My whole concept was if I avoided playing the sport, no one didn't know that I wasn't really good.

So maybe in their minds, they're thinking, maybe he's good, right? That was my pride.

Good fun memories, though. I've really loved Jonesboro. It's changed a whole lot over the 20 I'll be 30 in May, so it's all downhill from here, I feel like.

Oh my goodness. Don't say that.

But Jonesboro's changed a whole lot, but it's my home, and I love it. I've been blessed to be able to stay here, to be able to work here, and serve in ministry here as well.

Yeah.

That's awesome. I love that you've got so many roots here. I lived here as a kid. Dad preached Philadelphia Baptist Church just north of town here back in the 80s when I was young, and we didn't move away from here until I was about 11.

So I have deep roots also, just I didn't end up growing up here like you did and staying.

You grew up more in Florida, right?

Yeah.

So around 11, that's kind of a pivotal age, we were down in Florida. And man, I tell you what, that was a totally different culture.

Sure. Well, what were some of your favorite memories in Florida growing up?

In Florida? Oh my goodness. Now you caught me off guard. I don't know that I have a ton of favorite memories from Florida. I can tell you favorite memories from Jonesboro, though, as a kid. I can tell you that.

So since we lived up just north of town, so you had to go down Main Street to get back to the house. And every once in a while, we'd come to town. It was like as if we lived far out of town, we thought we lived in the country.

But you'd have to go through Main Street. So on the way back, you're coming. Right before the railroad tracks, there used to be a building where that parking lot is right now. You know where Cregan's is on the corner?

There's a parking lot next to it. Well, that used to be a building. I don't know if it was still there when you were younger or not. But that building, I don't know what it originally was, but when I was a kid, was the Army Navy.

Store.

And dude, every time we came to town, man, that was my whole agenda. I was trying to get mom to stop at the Army Navy store because I'd have a couple bucks with me, you know? And they sold these, you remember the Chinese, like the ninja throwing stars?

You know what I'm talking about? So they sell those. I mean, they were worthless. They weren't really sharp. They wouldn't even stick into the drywall. But I thought they were amazing. This is a lethal weapon that I'm purchasing as a child, right?

And so I would go in there and buy those. That was like the highlight of my, I still remember that, growing up, what a big deal.

It was.

I can still smell the store. I miss it. I wish the building was still there.

Yeah.

I don't think I ever went there.

If anybody remembers what that building was before the Army Navy store, I would be interested. Put it in the comments if you remember that spot. The parking lot right before the railroad tracks on Main Street.

That's pretty cool.

Yeah, I loved it.

That was a long time ago. Johnsboro's changed. I'm not saying you're old, Nathan.

I was about to say.

You just said that you're getting ready to turn 30 and that that's like, what'd you say?

It's all downhill.

All downhill from there. Oh my goodness.

Shout out to my friend Cameron Vogel saying, because he just turned 30 on Thursday.

Ah, happy birthday, Cameron. Yeah, that's right. You went over there to Memphis. Are they in Memphis or they're in Mississippi, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

So hey, Cameron, happy birthday, man. Wish I could join you guys.

Wait, I think it's today.

Oh, the birthday's today. Well then, hey.

Perfect.

Happy birthday, man.

I don't know if he has to tell me. We had an early surprise birthday party, but yeah, we're just, I texted him and we're just trying to stay, we're just trying to survive at this point now that we've reached 30.

Oh my goodness. Dude. Yeah, you got a long ways to go after that one.

Oh, well.

We will see. If I could feel like I felt at 30, I would be a happy man and I'm not even old. So I'm only, what, I'm 44. I'm not even old.

You're the same age as Trey Fisher, I've learned.

Oh, Trey. Yeah. That's right. That's right. All right, man. So let's, let's jump into this. I know this is what everybody came to hear. They didn't come to hear about our childhood.

Right. Right.

But, but we, we just want to let everybody know how much we love this community and why we wanted to plant a church here and minister to the people here because we love, I mean, you obviously, you have deeper roots than myself, but we both have a passion for people here in this community and we love the community.

But we're here to talk about the debate from back in February 11th at ASU. Tell us a little bit about who it was that you were debating.

Well, I had a blast for one. I feel like it was just a huge blessing and how it came about was interesting. So it's all started about a year and a half ago. There was a church member. I don't think she'd mind me saying Miss Brenda.

She showed me a newspaper article about an article in the paper that was being written by a Church of Christ preacher. And it was pretty much bashing phrases that we hold near and dear from church history like sola fide, faith alone, solus Christus, Christ alone, and soli deo gloria, to alter the glory of God alone.

And it had all these, the solas, the five solas of the Protestant Reformation. And Aaron Dodson was just saying how we're not saved by faith alone, right? Because it includes repentance. It includes a list of other things.

And I'm like, you know, that is a common misunderstanding of what that term means.

Right.

I remember Miss Brenda was like, hey, you should maybe reach out to this guy. And I was like, that's a great idea. And because, hey, I can reach out to somebody and, you know, with the heart of kindness and love, you know, just talked about these things.

So I reached out to Aaron and we had two really good conversations and, you know, conversations get a little heated sometimes, but we would always kind of remind each other, hey, it's all good, you know?

And so this is how it all started. And I remember asking Aaron a question and his answer really surprised me just, and I think it'd be good to kind of let everybody know. We started defining the word faith and we started defining the word works.

And, you know, my heart is to, you know, I love the English, but the original language was what is inspired. So when we read a word in English, that's wonderful and great. We got to ask, what does that word mean?

We don't look to 21st century dictionaries. We look to the Greek word and lexical uses of that word. So I'm explaining the word ergon for works, meaning what we do, what we accomplish. It's really getting at human exertion.

So it's ergon. This is where we get the English word energy from. This is the etymology of that. So I'm defining works as anything that we accomplish by human hands and we exert energy,.

Right?

When we perform a ceremonial action, that is a work. So he was quick to tell me that he's like, well, that's just your definition of works. And I'm like, honestly, I'm trying to understand the Greek word ergon.

He says, well, it's easy to build a doctrine when you make up your own definitions. And I'm like, I agree with you. That's not what I'm trying to do. So I asked him, what is your definition of the word works?

And he told me, I don't have a definition of the word works. I just obey the gospel. The gospel is simple and I just believe it. And I said, I think it's simple too, but what's your definition of this word that's used in.

Scripture?

And he said, I'm not going to fall for your trap. He goes, I, he says, I'm smarter than that. I don't have to define that word.

And I thought, like you're trying to trap him.

I'm not trying to trap him. I'm trying to say, you're a preacher. You get up in the pulpit. You don't just say it says what it says. You explain the meaning, right? That's what teachers do, right? But we talked about a lot of things that we're going to get into hopefully here in a little.

Bit.

And so a few weeks went by and I thought it was interesting. He didn't want to, cause he asked me if I'd be interested in debate and I thought he meant with himself. And I was like, absolutely, yes, I want to do this now, not out of meanness, but to talk about the truth.

And we see that there was debate going on in scripture and we see that, um, faithful men and saints have debated in church history. Like this is just a means that God has used over time. But he had a friend that he wanted me to debate with and, you know, I was kind of like, that's fine.

And so Aaron was actually really kind, invited me to his church, um, on like a Thursday or something. I got to meet him in person and he was real kind. I met his friend who's no longer in Jonesboro. And so he actually, we were going to set up a debate, but I don't know if he got promoted or he took another job.

I think this man, Tony Brewer is in Canada now. So it just kind of fell through.

So this wasn't Brock. This was another guy.

Okay.

Another guy. And so it just kind of fizzled out and it was kind of like, Hey, it's okay. You know, it just didn't happen because he moved away. And so I've been blessed to meet Marlon Wilson at the Gospel Truth.

And I remember finding his YouTube channel and him hosting debates. I'm just like, this is awesome. He gets some big names on there. They talk about all these different biblical topics. And sure enough, I just, since I didn't have the debate here in Jonesboro with Tony Brewer, I actually sent that to Marlon Wilson saying, Hey, here's a good debate topic.

I'd like to see a Baptist and Church Christ debate about baptism. And Marlon messaged me back really fast to my surprise, and he was like, Hey, I'll definitely remember that. By the way, would you like to debate a Mormon?

And so I did that and I got to do, I think, about three debates on Marlon's channel. And so you got a year and a half later, and I was actually at G3.

Okay.

In Atlanta, right?

In Atlanta.

Okay.

I had a blast. And Aaron reached out to me. He said, Hey, I have a friend in Harrisburg that's looking to debate somebody on water baptism. Would you be interested? And I remember so fast saying, Absolutely.

I want to do this. And I had no idea who Brock was, but I remember I really wanted to do this. And so from there, got to know Brock and Aaron. We all would go out to eat, we'd talk about things, super nice, super cordial.

But something we all share is a zeal to understand God's Word.

Right.

And so we all, I think we had a mutual respect about that. And so I don't know if you want to chime in, but that's kind of how it all kind of started building up. I started through Aaron. That's how I met Brock.

You met Brock.

Okay.

And so Brock wanted to debate somebody in the Baptist circles on baptism.

Yes.

So tell us a little bit about how did it go from a baptism debate to such an odd proposition? And what was the proposition again?

The New Testament teaches that the liberty from the penalty of past sins is at the point of an external act of... Oh, it keeps going.

Yeah.

It's like very wordy.

What did Trey Fisher call it? A word salad?

Yeah.

I was like, Trey's got jokes, by the way. I love that man. Yes, Trey does.

Hey, a shout out to, what is their YouTube channel? The Parish?

Redeemer?

Is it their church's YouTube channel or is it his podcast?

His podcast, I think.

Maybe we should have done a little research on our buddy Trey before we jumped into this. But hey, Trey, hopefully you're watching, brother.

So there was a buildup to that. And this is actually really interesting. So I'm sitting down at Panera with Brock and Aaron, and the original proposition was like the New Testament teaches that water baptism is for, in parentheses, in order to obtain the remission of sins.

That was originally the one we were going to do two debates, and the second one was going to be on faith alone, and I'd be the affirmative rather than the negative. And over time we realized, let's just do one.

Let's see how this goes. And then maybe now they're glad they just did one. I mean, I'm just saying like, you want to do one?

I don't think they want anything to do with us anymore.

Well, you know, I just look at it as, I trust God with it all, and if one day they do want to do something, I'm sure we can work something out. We'll just see. I'm just saying, I thoroughly was blessed and enjoyed everything beginning from him.

So you know, there was talks about doing two debates, making it multiple nights, and that was the first one on water baptism. This is what happened. I get a little bit more background with Brock, and he's telling me that he's going to a lot of the Baptist churches, Baptist-leaning churches in town, basically saying, hey, I want to do a debate on baptism, and a lot of the churches, you know, would kind of go, oh, that's a work, and then Brock would rightly bring up Romans 10, saying, well, isn't confessing with the mouth a work?

And then a lot of pastors not knowing how to engage at that point. Well, I've been studying these things for a long time, just by the grace of God, and I've grown up in Jonesboro, where there's a lot of Church of Christ.

I mean, I've literally sat at tables like this with multiple elders from Church of Christ talking about all these issues. So Brock told me, he's like, you think differently, and talk differently, and teach differently than a very typical Baptist individual, and I was just like, there's reasons for all of that.

For one, I've been blessed by just being familiar with a lot of these issues, and so I explained how I would negate the proposition to him, because he asked me, and I just said, it works for these reasons.

And I think from then on, he was thinking, we probably need to debate something else, a nuance, a difference, to not be just so pointed at water baptism, because I was ready to go to all eight verses or so of the proof text that they typically go to.

I'm familiar with all those verses in the context in which they exist in. So I noticed, the more I talked to him about it, the more he wanted to debate something different.

Yeah, and I could see that change happening, because you guys were meeting quite a bit in preparation for this.

We met a number of times, and then you met with us one time.

One time.

That was interesting.

That was kind of weird, wasn't it?

It was, because when you came, it just seems like their demeanor changed, and even after you left and we talked, it was different.

Maybe I smelt.

Maybe.

Smelt. Is that a word? Smelt? I smelt. No, I smelled, I guess.

But it was interesting, because I love these individuals, but a lot of times I would just notice the things we talk about, demeanor change to me and you together. So it's hard for me to put my finger on it all the time, and a lot of those times I just don't look too deep into that, I guess.

Well, I'll say the debate, from my perspective, has been unbelievably fruitful. We've gotten some pushback from both sides as to why we're debating. I'll talk about that here in just a moment, but me and you can attest just how fruitful.

The Word of God never returns void. It always does the work that it sets out to do. And so we've just tried to be faithful, and I was overwhelmed with gratitude with how you carried yourself and graciousness and how prepared you were.

I was up there just goofing around, just because I had to be up there. As I said on Trey's podcast, I felt like the guy in the corner of the boxing ring that would bring out the towel and the water for you in between, but I enjoyed doing that.

But the whole thing, I believe, that God is working through it, God works through everything. But He's using these means, and our prayer going into it for both of us was a diligent prayer that the gospel, the true gospel of Jesus Christ would go forth.

That was the whole purpose of this. This was a gospel-centric, evangelistic approach of dealing with the truth. So I know that both of us have had many interactions with people that have traditionally or even currently hold the Church of Christ doctrine.

So do you want to share maybe one or two or any of those interactions?

I actually want to begin with one interaction, I say one interaction, but the first of just Brock Kendall himself, because I was told by a lot of people the advice is don't talk so much to your interlocutor before the debate, because strategically they're going to be making notes, better understand your position, and all those things.

But just like you said, I was looking at this not trying to step in and win an argument, not try to claim victory like I was superior in this action. No, this is an opportunity to preach the gospel of grace.

Now within the context of what we agreed upon, absolutely. But with Brock it was so wonderful, Nathan, because obviously I'm praying for him. I love him more than he will ever know, I think. And so he was asking me questions like, how do you understand repentance?

How do you understand regeneration? What is your understanding of the gospel?

Great opportunities.

I look at that as, God, this is you sending someone to me to share truth in their life. Now on the other end, I don't know what he's doing, but I leave those things up to God. He's the one that gives the increase.

So that's probably one of the biggest interactions I had with the debate, and it's actually the man I was debating, himself, Brock Kendall. And I just count that as a massive, tremendous blessing. And with the opportunity to have the debate, I really wanted it to happen, so we had to be flexible a lot on things that he wanted to do, and things that I wanted to do.

And so, you mentioned earlier, you were up there with me. I'd like people to know that was one of those things that I didn't want to do that, because I thought someone up there with me would be distracting.

But they were very intentional, that they wanted them to up there, and I didn't want them to cancel because of that. And so we decided that Nathan could at least be eye candy.

There you go. That's what I'm talking about. I did that well.

He actually helped. So he wasn't just a pretty face up there.

Oh man. All I did was I had Logos open so that I could keep up with where you were going.

And you actually did something key in the debate, because I went back and looked, and I remember when I said something, it was based on one of your suggestions, because Brock was very irritated with my opening statement.

And I would like to remind Brock, we agreed to have both opening statements, not me to immediately rebut what he said. Because in an opening statement, he's going to lay out what he thinks is important.

I may think some of those things are important, along with other things of why I disagree. So that's why we decided not to have him have an opening statement and me immediately do.

A rebuttal.

We agreed on two opening statements. Now based on what I've heard and things like that, he was very irritated, well in the debate itself, he was very irritated.

He seemed a little frustrated, yeah.

And I hated that because tensions get high, and you expect one thing and something else happens. So I hate that, because it wasn't intentionally to make him mad or anything, but I was able to bring out more issues to the table than just his two verses that he wanted.

So what you did though, right before I went up to do my rebuttal, so you've got to think, he did an opening statement, then me, then he did a rebuttal, then me. Right before I went up, you reminded me, I remember you were like, let everybody know that you were laying a foundation.

I was defining terms, I was talking about more concepts that I knew would be important for this debate. So anyway, that was just one of those things that, that's why we did it. And so after the debate, a little bit of the aftermath, but honestly it was, all of it's been good, even for the people that were kind of negative, we know that those things are going to happen.

I've had people message me that are Church of Christ that are kind of still in the shadows, and I don't want to mention names, but just saying, Jeremiah, I feel like our side wasn't represented the way that we would like.

Thank you for curing yourself with kindness and gentleness and grace, because you and I, we prayed that, man, if I got up there and just had this smirk on my face, you know, tried to make it all about me, I mean, and it wasn't grounded in love, it'd be all for.

Nothing.

Right.

So I've just had a number of people appreciate my heart, and they could see it, and I'm like, praise God, because that's Him blessing the situation, because I'm falling, and in some ways I'm glad you're up there, because I think you being up there was encouraging and kind of reminded me what we're doing, what this is all about.

So I've had that, and in those same conversations with the person I'm having mine, asking me, do you have any resources so I can better your understanding, you better understand your position on justification, and just your soteriology as a whole.

And so I recommended The God Who Justifies by Dr. James White, and then I also recommended The Potter's Freedom that goes into more issues, and so that's just one situation that stands out to me.

That's good.

And then just one more. Some people have called, some texts, and I get a lot through social media. Had one gentleman reach out online and tell me how much he appreciated the multiple angles that were discussed in this debate.

He said, I've watched the handful of Church Cross Baptist debates, and he said, there's nothing like this one. He said, thank you so much for doing this. And I just look at that as, praise God, because apart from His blessing, I'm just, you know, I'm a knucklehead.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Word.

I can affirm that.

Yeah.

Well, so can my wife, too, which I hope she's watching out there. Love you, Allie. So, and I just wanted to echo the fact that there's been so much positive feedback. Even the ones that are kind of mad, I'm even trying to show them grace online, too.

Just saying, hey, you're entitled to your opinion. And if you have any questions about something, feel free to ask me, but you're also welcome to express your thoughts and stuff, too.

No, I'm with you. I mean, the church site, which you don't run, which I think a lot of people thought you ran it up front. The church site is something that I run, and so we're getting private messages all the time.

And it's opportunity, these are gospel opportunities with people that I understand why they're trying to be secretive.

Right?

It's almost like they want us to not share their identity. And so we're not. We're going to be very cautious not to put names out there. If you've reached out to us, we're not telling anyone about this.

I understand the fear of being shunned or losing relationships and friends. This is something you've thought and believed for so long. But man, there's people that are curious. And I think that the gospel of grace, I think people see the freedom in it.

They see that legalism and works and all of these systems are bearing down on them. It's a weight they can't bear. And so to hear about a gracious, faithful Savior that has done everything. And now in light of that, we get to serve that gracious Savior.

We get to go and be baptized. We get to go and be obedient to the things that God's called us to, which is what we see in Scripture. And so I totally understand people that have reached out. And if you have questions or you feel like reaching out, please do so.

Message the church or myself or Pastor Jeremiah and reach out to us. That will be confidential. And we will walk with you and make recommendations for resources and Scripture, not just one verse here and there, but chunks of Scripture in context.

So I would like to say that. And then there are people that obviously we have a lot of Baptists that are probably more Baptists probably watching this live feed, of course, today. And I understand that.

So you, if you're listening, please be in prayer with us. You obviously don't know names, you don't know circumstances, but our heart from the beginning of this entire process with the debate and with reaching out and dealing with the Church of Christ in this area, our heart has been for the people.

We care deeply. We love the people that are in the Church of Christ. And we want to reach them. And not only them, but we love our Baptist brothers and sisters and our Presbyterian brothers and sisters and all these other denominations we love.

And we want this to be a resource for them to be sharpened. And so be praying for the people that are hearing these truths. Be praying specifically for Brock and Aaron. I mean, I've shed tears over those two men just because I long for them to come to the saving knowledge of Christ.

I long for them to repent and look to Christ alone. Right. And so please, please be in prayer. Put these people, the nameless ones and even the ones we've named on your prayer list because we long to reach them.

We long.