Jen Wilkin: Conniving Feminism in the Church - Part 1

All right, welcome back to the channel. God bless you. I hope you've had a good... I don't remember the last time I uploaded a video, so a good week, let's say. Anyway, I've been busy, you know? I've been... weekend stuff, Lord's Day, things like that, and went to the aquarium the other day.

It's just been, you know, just a fun-filled kind of few days, you know? The kids are getting back to school, and all kinds of stuff happening. It's been wonderful. It's been wonderful. I hope your time has been equally wonderful.

We are going to get back into it. A lot of you requested that I do the Jen Wilkin thing, without even really knowing what the Jen Wilkin thing was. And to be honest, I had forgotten, too. You know, there's been a number of people that have reached out to me about various Jen Wilkin things.

But there was one in particular that I had to get a reminder of what it was. It was this Gospel Coalition video called, Why Honoring the Gifts and Ability of Women is Relevant to De-Churching. And I gotta be honest with you, I agree.

It is relevant to de-churching. Probably in the opposite way that Jen Wilkin thinks. Just my opinion. I haven't seen this, so I don't really know what she's going to say. But if I know Jen Wilkin in general, which I know a little bit.

I don't know her that well. I would probably assume that while she's correct, it is definitely relevant to de-churching. It's probably an inverse relationship to what she thinks it is. So let's just jump right into it.

I don't know how long we'll go today. This will be a fun video. And then, you know, we'll take it from there. Let's get started.

The Podcast Introduction and the De-Churching Context

Welcome to As in Heaven, Season 3. My name is Jim Davis. I am your host and pastor of Orlando Grace Church.

This is like the face of winsomeness. When you think winsome, it used to be that you would think of Tim Keller or Russell Moore. That was the old guard of winsome. Now it's this guy, Jim Davis. Probably the most winsome guy to ever exist.

I mean, has there ever been anyone more winsome than this? I don't think so. And if you could think of someone more winsome than Jim Davis, I've got to be honest with you, I'd like to hear it. I'd like to hear it, because you're wrong, and I can't wait to prove you wrong.

Jim Davis is the most winsome person to ever exist on planet Earth. That's why he's been hired for this podcast.

My co-host and dear friend, Michael Aitchison, pastor of Christ Fellowship, also here in Orlando. And today we are joined by author and speaker, Jen Wilkin, who also serves as the executive director of CARE Family and NextGen Ministries at the Village Church in the Dallas area.

And I actually, I first got to know you, Jen, when I moderated a debate that you and Jonathan Pennington did for TGC on whether or not parents should send their kids to public school. So nothing controversial there.

If you remember that one, man, I did a whole series on that debate. Jen Wilkin's arguments in that debate, while they weren't the most ridiculous of any of the good faith debate arguments that I've heard, because I've seen some ridiculous stuff, they were pretty preposterous.

And her presentation style, I just have to be honest, it grates on me more than probably anything ever. Any presentation style ever. Maybe, how could I do that to Jen? Jake Meader. Jake Meader is worse.

But they're both along the same line. Interestingly, they're both along the same lines. It's a toss-up between Jen and Jake.

Nothing. It was a great debate. It was a horrible debate.

It was an absolutely horrendous debate. I'll try to remember to put the link to the playlist of that debate. We thoroughly took that one apart. I mean, it wasn't that hard to do. But yeah, Jen Wilkin in that was abysmal.

But some of the worst stuff I've ever seen on Gospel Coalition.

Because I do a lot of little debates and videos or whatever for TGC, and I really don't think many people in my life know that I do any of this. But when that debate went live, I was actually at a fundraiser for RTS, and I think that evening, and every young mom came up to me and said, I saw your debate.

I didn't know you knew Jen. That was the main thing. And I was like, well, I didn't until then. But I say this because I really want to give glory to God that you have had an impact on a lot of people, and specifically a lot of women through your books, your talks, and your video series.

And we're just really thankful that you would give us your time here today.

There's no question that she's had an impact on people. The debatable question is how much of it has been positive and how much of it has been negative. Because I think that there probably are positives to some of the impact that she's had on women.

But it's definitely not exclusively positive. And I've got to be honest, I don't know if the positives outweigh the negatives. I don't know if we'll get into that. Maybe we will because I've heard this is pretty interesting and interesting in the way that would make me think that this is probably the negatives are going to come out quite a bit in this.

So we'll see. We'll see what happens. But, yeah, she's definitely very popular. There's no question about that. Highly influential. No question about that. I think that some people, for whatever reason, find her presentation style compelling.

I mean, I can't deny that. I disagree. But that's, you know, listen, just because I disagree doesn't mean it's not true. But anyway, let's continue.

Thanks for having me. Well, this season on the podcast, we have been talking about living in a new context in the U .S., an era that we call the great de-churching as 40 million people who used to regularly attend church do not anymore, which is changing so much about not only the church but the fabric of the society that we live in.

And so we commissioned Dr. Ryan Burge and Dr. Paul Jupe, Ph .D. sociologists, to do the most comprehensive nationwide quantitative university-reviewed study ever done on de-churching in the U .S. And we found in the study that almost 10 of those who have de-churched from an evangelical context cited misogyny as a reason.

And when we drilled down more on this, we found that A, these aren't all women leaving for this reason. Men are leaving for this reason, too. And B, that this wasn't peripheral to their departure. We found out that it was actually central.

Can you imagine being a guy and somebody calls you and they're like, hey, did you leave your church? You're like, yeah, I left my church. And then they're like, well, what's the reason? And you say, misogyny?

Oh, man, misogyny. If you're a guy and you left a church and the stated reason is misogyny, because I got to be honest with you, I'm specifically saying stated reason because I'm pretty much sure that that's actually not the actual reason.

But the stated reason, that's what you decide to say. You decide it's a good idea to tell someone that it's misogyny is the reason you left the church. There is a 99 chance that you are a homosexual.

You're either a homosexual or you're so unbelievably, I don't know if I can say that word on YouTube. Can I? Anyway, the kind of guy that allows other people to sleep with your wife. You know what I'm saying?

Oh, man, misogyny. I'm leaving my church because of misogyny. If you're a guy and you left your church over misogyny, you said it like this. Misogyny. It's all the misogyny that's at my church. That's why I left it.

To their departure. So today we want to talk about church culture as it pertains to women in the church. And we want to talk about unhealthy practices in the church that lead to a devaluing of women in the church.

And we want to talk about healthy practices that lead to the building up and the flourishing of women in the church. And the reason that we want to speak with you, Jen, on this topic.

It's just so funny. Like the way they set this up is it's not scriptural, non-scriptural, sinful, non-sinful, you know, holy or righteous or evil. No, the dichotomy is healthy or unhealthy. That's a very interesting thing in my opinion.

I personally, I find that kind of language and that kind of, I just completely off-putting, don't care about it at all. Somebody says, oh, that's not healthy. I usually just kind of turn that off kind of thing.

Unless you're talking about actual, you know, health. You know what I mean? Like, you know, starting a weightlifting program is healthy for you or not healthy, you know, that kind of thing. Eating seed oils is not healthy.

Then I'm okay with it. But in the context of this, I don't like that. I don't like it. Because we've got so many words from God on this. And I don't think health, health factor is one of them. That doesn't mean every word we have to use has to be in the Bible.

I just personally find that interesting. I'm not saying it's wrong to say something's unhealthy or healthy. It's just not for me. It's just not for AD Robo. You know, I'm a man of particular tastes.

Women in Ministry and the Assumption of Leadership Gifts

Is layered. Jin is a woman in ministry leading in a large way. And you have had to personally navigate the things. He felt the need to clarify that. Jin is a woman.

This episode is starting off a little crazy, a little crazy. I don't know. I'm in kind of a crazy mood right now. You know, it's middle of the day Thursday. It's really hot here. And I don't know. It's just been one of those weeks, a short week.

I just don't really feel like, you know, being too serious here. He felt the need to clarify. Jin is a woman. He even emphasized it. A woman in ministry. That we want to talk about today.

So, this is not academic to you. This is real life. But what I also appreciate is what you do behind the scenes to help pastors and church leaders like me to build a healthy church culture where everyone can flourish.

So, my desire in having Jin on this podcast. Yikes, man.

He's going to Jen Wilkin to consult on how to be a better pastor, to have a healthy ministry.

Ouch. That's a big yikes. Very much comes from the time that you've spent with me, talking with me about how to lead my church.

See, what you really need to do, Jen, is you really need to empower women and elevate them and honor their gifts. Because God has given them teaching gifts and preaching gifts. Well, maybe not preaching.

Because you can't say preaching because that would be too obvious of what she's up to. But there's going to be a big but here, I think. Oh, man. Jim, what you really need to do is you need to put women in places of leadership in every place except for the ones that I can't get away with promoting and still being a conservative Christian.

That's what you need to do, Jim. If you're taking advice from Jen Wilkin on how to be a pastor, how to pastor your flock, that's a big sign that you have failed. You are a failure. Actually, you haven't failed.

You're in the process of failing. It's just that's the worst idea I can imagine. Call in Jen as a consultant to decide if you're doing the right things as a pastor or not. Do I have a healthy environment here, Jen?

Her life, her whole program, her livelihood depends on telling you no. So it doesn't matter how biblical what you're doing is, how correct it is, she's got to say no. You've got to be fighting misogyny in some way.

If you're not fighting it, then you are one.

So with that context, let's dive in. And I want to start by asking you about your personal journey. As a woman with real gifts of leading and teaching, I have to imagine that many pastors would not know how to steward these kinds of gifts.

So what have been some of the challenges and blessings that you've experienced through your ministry? Yeah, you've got the gift to lead in the church. Says who?

Well, says you. Says Jen, I'm a leader. I'm a leader in ministry. I'm a ministry leader. I have a title. I'm an executive director of leadership in ministry. Or whatever her title was. I like the starting point of this.

It's just Gospel Coalition, this is a clinic of Gospel Coalition. The starting point is you have ministry leadership abilities, as if that needs no defense. That's just an obvious thing. Again, I'm not saying she's not highly influential.

She certainly is. But it's just assuming the very thing that should be being debated. You are a ministry leader as a woman. Tell us your story. Please, let us sit at your feet and learn about how to do church better.

Please, Jen, teach us. This is what Gospel Coalition exists for. To assume the very thing that is wrong that should be debated. Just assume it. And then pretend like, I don't know, you're debating something.

Or something's at stake. But really, you've just done a little bit of a sly move there. Where you assume the very thing that should be challenged. And I think that lots of people are starting to notice this.

If you look at this, this has been out for about a month. A little over a month. 4 ,000 views. 4 ,000 views. This channel has almost 200 ,000 subscribers. I get videos with 4 ,000 views pretty regularly.

Not every video, but pretty regularly. I have less than 20 ,000 subscribers. Less than 20 ,000 subscribers. They have almost 200 ,000. 4 ,000 views. People are absolutely done with this kind of thing.

They have a lot of money. They still have a lot of institutional power. And people still take them very seriously. But a lot less do than they used to. That's for sure. So let's learn, Jen. Jen, teach me.

Teach me your lived experience as a woman with obvious leadership ministry abilities.

Jen Wilkin’s Account of Her Calling and Early Ministry

Well, I don't know that I ever expected to find myself in full-time vocational ministry in the church. I mean, for one thing, at the time that I was...

For one thing, the Bible is completely against it. For one thing.

As a young adult, in young adulthood, there just really weren't a lot of spots on church staffs for women who would have wanted to pursue full-time vocational ministry. And so I didn't set out with any kind of agenda whatsoever.

I really just started walking toward a need in the local church and trying to meet it. And I grew up in a home with four brothers who I was close with, a father who I was close with, and my brothers and my father loved and affirmed me and treated me as an equal and someone whose gifts were something to be celebrated.

Not surprisingly, I married a man who was the same way. Jeff was not... He didn't find the things about me that others might find threatening threatening. He saw them as things to lift up and to celebrate and support.

I grew up in a home with feminist brothers and a feminist father. And then surprise, surprise, I married a feminist husband. And they just let me do whatever I wanted to do. And then that's how I grew up into full-time ministry in the church.

Out of school, I took a job working for a large department store chain in the buying offices. And it wasn't until I started volunteering in a church setting that I understood that not everyone valued the gifts and contributions of women equally.

The first place that I felt that was in the local church. And I always hasten to say when I talk about this, that there are no villains in my story. And I mean that. I mean that deeply. I do think that there are some ways of treating women that have become normative over time.

And that even good men can operate in those patterns. Just because it's the ecosystem in which they were raised up into ministry. And it perhaps has never been evaluated. So my experience was that I was an eager learner.

I really hope that... Because the last time we did this whole thing, she had a lot of things to say, but not a lot of specifics. And she's kind of making some accusations here. They didn't value women like they're supposed to.

There weren't villains though. But I wonder if she's going to get specific. Because I would imagine the specifics would really make a big difference here. Because some people would say the church doesn't value the contributions of women because they can't be leaders.

Because they can't be elders, pastors. They can't teach in mixed company or whatever it is. Or teach theology or things like that. And for those reasons they don't value. But these things are things we can directly from the Bible.

So what you're really saying is God doesn't value the contributions of women and things like that. And so these things need flesh and blood. You can't just say these things. We don't believe you anymore.

We just don't believe you. I saw this great interrogation. I felt so bad for this lady because she was obviously addicted to alcohol. She shows up to school the first day of school. She's a teacher. And she's drunk.

She shows up to school drunk. And they confront her. And I saw the interview that they confront her with. And she just lies. She's obviously ashamed of herself. She deserved to be fired. I'm not saying she didn't deserve to be fired.

But she's got so much shame and rightfully so. She doesn't want to tell anyone. She doesn't want to call her husband. She just keeps lying to try to cover her tracks. So she changed her story numerous times.

And then she finally comes out with what's probably the truth. And what's probably the truth is that, and she says this. She says she drank on the way to school. She didn't drink at school. She drank on the way to school.

And later the cop says, well, where's the cup that you drank at school with? And she's like, well, you know, I didn't drink at school. And he's like, well, I don't believe you. And it's just like that point.

Eventually, you know, you're not believed after a while because you've changed your story. You've lied so many times and things like that. And so, you know, the thing is we don't believe you. You've lost your credibility at that point.

You know, you said these things. Oh, this is a textbook misogyny. It's like, well, you know, now we don't really know what you're talking about. It's a boy who cried wolf. It's just as simple as that.

I could have said that very easily. The boy who cried wolf. Access to formal theological training but was teaching in the local church and very much wanted to grow in my teaching gift. And I didn't know who I could go to for help.

I did go to my pastor, my church in Houston, and he actually was an open door for me. He offered to loan me commentaries. And he listened to one of my recordings of my teachings and gave me feedback. But as you can imagine, if I had been a young 23-year-old man who had shown up on his doorstep, and in fact, there was that guy at our church, there were so many more doors and opportunities that just naturally would open to him than would to me because, among other reasons, optics, right?

That's always a big concern.

And often—. Among other reason optics? What kind of a way is that to frame it? You see, this is the thing. And the first time around when we, you know, did a Jen Wilkin thing, she's pretty conniving. She's smart.

She's smart. Did you see how she just said that? If a 23-year-old male would have come to him and said, I want to learn more about theology, there would be a lot more doors open to them for, you know, among other reasons, optics.

Like the other reasons are like serious, legitimate, biblical concerns that come directly from the pages of God, the God you claim to love. And then you say, you just put those into some other reasons, but especially optics.

Optics is what you choose to focus on. So you choose the most petty-sounding one, which really isn't petty-sounding at all. It really isn't petty at all, but to an American audience, it's just optics.

It's just who cares. It's just like a throwaway thing. It's just optics. And then all of like the hardcore, like hard reasons that they would be for a male to have more ministry doors open than for a woman, legitimate things that I think you would agree with.

Honestly, I have no idea. Those just get shoved into among other reasons. So an undisciplined listener, a listener who wants to sin in this way, thinks, oh, those other reasons are just as petty as the reason that she gave.

They must be just as petty because she would have certainly went with the strongest one. So the strongest one must be optics. And those other reasons, that must be even more petty than optics. She's a slick one, this one.

This one is extremely conniving. And I got to be honest, like I feel completely comfortable saying that. Oh, so among other reasons, optics? As if there's nothing, as if there's no real legitimate reason.

Maybe she'll get into the legitimate reasons. I'm assuming she will. But that little rhetoric right there, that is some conniving stuff. That's very conniving. Very conniving, Jen. Very, very conniving.

Wow. I dealt with women like this when I was working in New York City on Wall Street. I dealt with women like this. And these are the kind of people that you just give them the minimal amount of information that you can because they will take any little tiny thing and just get right in the back.

These are like the sharks, you know, in Wall Street. I have learned through the years. Like language experts. I mean, this is some sophisticated stuff. Like that little piece of rhetoric right there, you guys might think that wasn't a big deal.

That's a huge deal. She shoved all of the legitimate concerns someone might have for a woman in leadership, put them into nothingness, and then said optics. This is optics. This is just optics. Listen, optics actually do matter.

But, again, that's the most petty sounding one she could say. Unreal, man. This is, listen, I don't remember if I revealed who's the one who wanted me to do this. So I'm going to keep it under wraps because that's the kind of guy I am.

But I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Thanks for the recommendation.

This is good. This is good stuff. I have not gone to seminary, so I would not have known this firsthand. But that often men in ministry have been told that women are to be treated in a guarded banner because they are either showing up as a usurper, someone who wants to take a temptress, someone who wants to sleep with them, or as a child, someone who is needy and is going to require more of their time than they can give.

Wow. Sure. So here's the truth. Sometimes women, and it's very clear when they do this, are coming as usurpers. I've been to many churches where there are certain women that have done this. Sometimes women come to you as a temptress.

The Bible is very clear about this. You know, you read the book of Proverbs. I've been reading the book of Proverbs to my sons at dinner time. And the amount of times the Proverbs warn about the temptress type, archetype, is very interesting.

It's again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again. This is a big warning that the scripture gives. And then the child thing, I mean, I don't know anything about that. I don't even know what she's talking about.

Maybe she just made it up. Who knows? I'd like to see some receipts. I don't think we're going to see some receipts. But look at this. We've got a beautiful black man. And I'm sure he's about to drop some wisdom on us.

He's about to drop some wisdom on us.

The “We” Language, Church Authority, and the Final Critique

Jen, I'm sure that there's so many more details to the arc of your story.

I just want to say for one. I'm sure there are. You didn't give us any details, but I'm sure they're there. And I'm sure there's lots of evidence and proof that these people were misogynist to you. And they didn't open their door to you because you was a woman.

And it was because of optics. I'm sure there's lots of evidence for that.

But you don't even have to give it to us. We just believe you. I believe you. I appreciate you sharing it with us. And then two, our ministry has been the personal beneficiaries of your story and your work early in the days of planting.

This guy literally looks like a Ninja Turtle.

Maybe it's just the green shirt. But I don't know. If he had another shirt on, he'd still probably look like a Ninja Turtle.

Price United Fellowship, we used She Reads Truth. So that was a pretty foundational study for our women. And that's, let's see now, we're talking almost 10 years now. So appreciate all your contributions to the kingdom.

What do you think, just building off of what you shared, are some of the core insecurities or idols male pastors have to work through to lead a church into a healthy culture as it pertains to women in the church?

Notice, again, this is classic gospel coalition. He's not asking what are the theological challenges that people need to work through? What are the Bible passages that people need to work through? What is the scripture people need to work through?

No, it's what are the idolatrous, you know, assumptions or the evil? Like what's the evil you need to overcome in order to truly honor women? It's just unbelievable, this gospel coalition, these guys, man.

That Ninja Turtle. I honestly think, particularly among younger pastors, the insecurities around like the stereotypes that I just mentioned, they're not so much there. I actually think that's kind of an older demographic of pastors who are thinking about things from a different lens.

Younger guys face the pressure of conformity. It's if I decide to step out of line and actually operate out of a brother-sister mentality, if I actually believe that the New Testament one another's mean, don't mean men over here and women over here.

If I believe that the church really is the family of God, I'm going to meet with scrutiny from my peers who are going to say that I'm doing something dangerous or even unbiblical. And so, you know, at my own church, this was a real journey for us.

At The Village, we started writing our paper that you can find on our website now about eight years ago. And it was because, I would love to tell you, it was because we were concerned about our theological position.

It was actually born out of a deeply pastoral moment, a huge public failure that the church had in regard to a counseling case that went sideways, a care case that was mishandled. And at that point, we began to ask, let's say for the sake of argument that we have a pure theology.

And that is something that every church, I think, has to go and re-examine. Many of us dragged and dropped someone else's version of this into our website. But let's say for the sake of argument that our theology on men and women is pure, is our practice that has resulted from it pure?

I'm going to pause here, and this will be the end of the video. I really want you to hear the language that she's using here, the way she's speaking. This woman is intelligent, no question about it, very smart.

She's choosing her words very carefully. She's an excellent communicator, and she just gave you the impression that she's an elder at Village Church. She didn't say that. But notice what she's doing. She says, we.

She uses we. We had a counseling issue that we failed at. And we decided to write this paper, and so we examined our theology, and then we examined our practice. What's the role that she's assumed for herself?

She just got done talking about how, oh, women are not eutherpers. And now she's saying, we. Who's the we? Who in the church would be examining theology? Divorce it from this context for a second. Who in the church would have failed in a counseling situation?

Assuming they did. I know nothing about this situation. I'm not saying they did fail. I have no idea what they're talking about. But just assume for a second that the church failed in a counseling situation.

And the church decided to reevaluate their theology. And the church decided to evaluate their orthopraxy and all of this stuff. Who in the church, if you're a conservative Christian, who in the church is the we that's doing those things?

That would be the elders. That would be the pastors of the church that failed. The pastors of the church that reevaluated their theology. The pastors of the church that reevaluated their orthopraxy. The pastors of a church that are putting together a document.

When she says we, she's part of that group. Maybe not in name. Maybe not in title. But she is part of that group. This is why people warn about usurpers. Because of women like you. A lot of times these usurper types, they're pretty traditional.

They're not like Jen. Jen's not that traditional. Well, at least in this way. I don't know anything about her personal life. But what I've noticed in New England especially, that a lot of these women are actually pretty traditional.

And they are against women pastors. But they take the role of pastor in every way except they're not preaching on Sunday. They're one of the elders. They're part of the group. And a lot of times the way they do it is through the deacon board.

They'll get on the deacon board. And then they'll turn the deacon board into like the second house of congress. So they have two elder boards. You've got the elders and you've got the deacons. And they're basically both elders.

And they're basically fighting over power over various things and things like that. This is how it happens in New England. This is not just churches that I've been to. This is many churches in New England.

They've got this kind of dual, you know, like the house of representatives and the congress and the senate. And you've got women on the other side. And they're exercising authority in that role. The very thing the Bible specifically says they are not to do.

Specifically says. And so what do you call a woman who starts acting and using authorities that the Bible specifically says she does not have? You call them a usurper. That's what you call them. Again, maybe there's some details here that I'm missing out on.

But I just found it interesting. She did not say she's a pastor. She did not say she was participating in these things. But by saying we, the listener, a normal listener would be like, oh, she was part of this.

She was totally part of it. Maybe she was just saying the royal we as the church. But again, I think the language matters here. I really do. Maybe she's just saying we because she's part of Village Church.

Just like anybody part of Village Church would have said we. Maybe. Maybe. I don't think so, though. I don't think so. And I've got to be honest with you. I'm from Brooklyn, so I know a hustle when I see one.

In any case, I hope you found this video helpful. God bless.