Jen Wilkin: Conniving Feminism in the Church - Part 1

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Matt Chandler's Pastrix* Jen Wilkin - Part 2

00:00

All right, welcome back to the channel. God bless you. I hope you've had a good. I don't remember the last time

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I uploaded a video so good week. Let's say Anyway, I've been busy, you know been Weekend stuff

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Lord's Day things like that and went to the aquarium the other day It's just been you know, just a fun -filled kind of a few few days

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You know, the kids are getting back to to school and all kinds of stuff happening. It's been it's been wonderful It's been wonderful.

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Hope your time has been equally wonderful We are going to get back into it a lot of you requested that I do the

00:34

Jen Wilkin thing without even really knowing what the Jen Wilkin thing was and To be honest,

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I had forgotten too, you know There's been a number of people that have reached out to me about various Jen Wilkin things but there was one in particular that I had to get a

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Reminder of what it was and it was it was this gospel coalition video Called why honoring the gifts and ability of women is relevant to deter

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De -churching and I got to be honest with you. I agree. It is relevant to de -churching

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Probably in the opposite way that Jen Wilkin thinks Just my opinion.

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I I haven't seen this so I don't really know what she's gonna say But I would if I know Jen Wilkin in general, which

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I know a little bit. No, I don't know her that well. I Would probably assume that while she's correct.

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It is definitely relevant to de -churching It's probably it's probably an inverse relationship to what she thinks it is.

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So let's just jump right into it I don't know how long we'll go today. This will be this will be a fun video and then you know

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We'll take it from there. Let's get started Welcome to as in heaven season 3.

01:48

My name is Jim Davis I am your host and pastor of Orlando Grace Church And I am joined by my face of winsomeness like like if you think when you think winsome

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It used to be that you would think of like Tim Keller or Russell Moore those were that was the old guard of winsome

02:03

Now it's this guy Jim Davis Probably the most winsome guy to ever exist

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I mean has there any has there ever been anyone more winsome than this? I don't think so.

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And if you could think of someone more winsome than Jim Davis I've got to be honest with you.

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I'd like to hear it I'd like to hear because you're wrong and I can't wait to prove you wrong Jim Davis is the most winsome person to ever exist on planet

02:30

Earth. That's why he's been hired for this podcast My co -host and dear friend

02:36

Michael Aitchison pastor of Christ Fellowship also here in Orlando and today we are joined by author and speaker

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Jen Wilkin who also serves as the Executive director of care family and next -gen ministries at the village church in the

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Dallas area And I actually I first got to know you Jen When I moderated a debate that you and Jonathan Pennington did for TGC on Whether or not parents should send their kids to public school

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So nothing controversial there and it was if you remember that one man. I did a whole series on that debate.

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That was Jen Jen Wilkin's arguments in that debate while they weren't the most

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Ridiculous of any of the good faith debates arguments that I've heard because I've seen some ridiculous stuff They were they were pretty preposterous

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And and and and and and her presentation style. I just have to be honest

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It grates on me more than probably anything ever Any presentation style ever maybe

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How could I do that to Jen Jake meter Jake meaters is worse, but they're both along the same line

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Interestingly, they're both along the same lines. It's a toss -up between Jen nothing. It was a great debate

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It was a funny debate. It was absolutely horrendous debate I I'll try to remember to put the the link to the playlist of that debate.

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We thoroughly took that one apart I mean It was very it wasn't that hard to do but Yeah, Jen Wilkin in that was was abysmal

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But some of the worst stuff I've ever seen on gospel coalition Because I do a lot of little debates and videos or whatever for TGC and I really don't think many people in my life

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Know that I do any of this but when that debate went live I was actually at an fundraiser for RTS and I think every that evening and every young mom

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Came up to me and said I saw your debate. I didn't know you knew Jen That was the main thing and I was like, well

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I didn't until then but I say this because I really want to give glory to God that you have had an impact on a lot of people and Specifically a lot of women through your books your talks in your video series

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And we're just really thankful that you would give us your time here today Well, I'm glad there's no question that she's had an impact on people the the debatable question is how much of it has been positive and how much of it has been negative because I think that there probably are

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Positives to some of the impact that she's had on women, but it's definitely not exclusively positive and I got to be honest

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I don't know if the positives outweigh the negatives Which which I don't know if we'll get into that maybe we will because I I've heard this is pretty interesting and interesting in the way that would make me think that this is probably

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The negatives are gonna come out quite a bit in this so we'll see we'll see what happens But but yeah, she's definitely very popular.

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There's no question about that Highly influential no question about that I think that that some people for whatever reason find her presentation style compelling

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I mean, I I can't deny that I disagree but that's you know, listen just because I disagree doesn't mean it's not true

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But anyway, let's let's continue Beyond thanks for having me Well this season on the podcast we have been talking about Living in a new context in the u .s

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An era that we call the great de -churching as 40 million people who used to regularly attend church do not anymore

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Which is changing so much about not only the church, but the the fabric of the society that we live in and so we commissioned

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Dr. Ryan Burge and dr. Paul Jupe PhD sociologists to do the most comprehensive nationwide quantitative University -reviewed study ever done on de -churching in the u .s

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And we found in the study that almost 10 % of those who have de -churched from an evangelical

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Context cited misogyny as a reason and when we drilled down more on this

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We found that a these aren't all women leaving for this reason men are leaving for this reason, too

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And be that this wasn't peripheral to their departure. We found out that it was actually central Being a guy and and and somebody calls you and they're like hey, you know,

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I did you leave your church? You're like, yeah, I left my church and then they're like, well, what's the reason and and you say misogyny.

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Oh Man misogyny if you're a guy and you left a church and the stated reason is misogyny

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Because I got to be honest with you I'm specifically saying stated reason because I'm pretty much sure that that's actually not the actual reason

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But the stated reason that's what you decide to say So you decide it's a good idea to tell someone that it's misogyny is the reason you left the church

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There is a 99 % chance that you are a homosexual You're either a homosexual or you're so unbelievably

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Don't know if I can say that word on YouTube. Can I? Anyway the kind of guy that You know allows other people to sleep with your wife, you know what

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I'm saying? Misogyny I'm leaving my church because of massage you say if you're a guy and you left your church over misogyny

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You said it like this Misogyny, it's it's all the misogyny that church. That's why

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I left it To their departure

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So today we want to talk about Church as it pertains to women in the church and we want to talk about unhealthy practices in the church that lead to a devaluing of women in the church and we talking want to talk about healthy practices that lead to the building up and the flourishing of women in the

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Church and the reason that we want to speak with you Jen on this It's just so funny.

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Like the way they set this up is it's not Scriptural non -scriptural sinful

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Non -sinful, you know, holy a righteous or evil. No, the dichotomy is healthy or unhealthy

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That's a very interesting thing in my opinion. I Personally, I find that kind of language and that kind of I just completely off -putting don't care about it at all

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So that's not healthy. I usually just kind of turn that off kind of thing unless you're talking about actual, you know health

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You know what I mean like, you know starting a weightlifting program is healthy for you or not healthy

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You know that kind of thing eating seed oils is not healthy then I then I'm okay with it But in the context of this

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I don't like that. I don't like it because we've got so many words from God on this and I don't think health

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Health factors one of them. That doesn't mean everything every word we have to use has to be in the Bible I just personally find that interesting.

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I'm not saying it's wrong to say something's unhealthy or healthy It's just not for me. It's just not for 80 Robo's, you know,

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I'm a very I'm a man of particular tastes Is layered? Jen is a woman in ministry leading in a large way and you have had to personally navigate

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The things he felt the need to clarify that Jen is a woman This episode is starting off a little crazy a little crazy.

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I'm just I don't know I'm in a kind of a crazy mood right now. You know, it's it's middle of the day Thursday I am it's it's really hot here.

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And I don't know. It's just been one of those weeks a short week I just I just don't really feel like, you know being too serious here

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He felt the need to clarify. Jen is a woman. He even emphasized a woman in ministry

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Is that we want to talk about today? So this is not academic to you This is this is real life But what

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I also appreciate is what you do behind the scenes to help pastors and church leaders like me

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To build a healthy church culture where every everyone can flourish. So my desire in having

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Jen on this podcast He's going to Jen Wilkin to consult on how to be a better pastor to have a healthy ministry

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Very much comes from the time that you've spent with me talking with me about how to lead my church when it comes to do

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Jen is you really need to empower women and Elevate them and honor their gifts because God has given them teaching gifts and preaching gifts

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Well, maybe not preaching because she can't say preaching because that would be an too obvious of what she's up to but but There's gonna be a big butt here,

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I think Man, Jim, what you really need to do is you need to put women in places of leadership in every place

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Except for the ones that I can't get away with promoting and still being a conservative Christian That's what you need to do

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Jim If you're simply the flashing of Jen Wilkin on how to be a pastor how to pastor your flock That's a big sign that you have you have failed.

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You are a failure. You're actually you haven't failed You're in the process of failing. It's just that's the worst idea

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I could imagine you call in Jen as a consultant to decide if you if you're if you're doing the right things as a pastor

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Or not, I've got to do I have a healthy environment here Jen Her life her Her whole program her livelihood depends on telling, you know

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So it doesn't matter how biblical what you're doing is how correct it is She's got to say no, you've got to be fighting misogyny in some way.

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If you're not fighting it you're then you are one Women so with that context let's dive in And I want to start about by asking you about your personal journey as a woman with real gifts of leading and teaching

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I have to imagine that many pastors would not know how to steward these kinds of gifts

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So what have been some of the challenges and blessings that you've experienced through your ministry?

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The gift to lead in the church says who will says you says Jen. I'm a leader. I'm a leader of a ministry

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I'm a ministry leader. I have a title. I'm an executive director of leadership in ministry or whatever her title was

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I Like I like the starting point of this it's just gospel coalition is this is just This is a clinic of gospel coalition.

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The starting point is you have ministry leadership abilities as if that needs no defense

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That that's just an obvious thing that needs. No, I'm not. No, I'm not again. I'm not saying she's not highly influential.

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She certainly is But it's just assuming the very thing that's at that that should be being debated

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You are a ministry leader as a woman Tell us your story, please.

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Let us sit at your feet and learn about how to do church better. Please Jen teach us

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This is this is what gospel coalition exists for to assume the very thing that is wrong.

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That should be debated Just assume it and then pretend like I don't know you're debating something or you're something's at stake but really you've just done a little bit of a

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Sly move there where you assume the very thing that should be challenged And I think that lots of people are starting to notice this and if you imagine if you look at this

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This has been out for about a month a little over a month 4 ,000 views 4 ,000 views

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This channel has almost 200 ,000 subscribers I get videos with 4 ,000 views pretty regularly not every video but pretty regularly

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I have less than 20 ,000 subscribers less than 20 ,000 subscribers they have almost 200 ,000 4 ,000 views people are absolutely

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Done with this kind of thing. They have a lot of money They still have a lot of institutional power and and and people still take them very seriously

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But a lot less do than they used to that's for sure So let's let's learn

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Jen Jen teach me teach me your experience your lived experience as a woman who was obvious leadership ministry abilities

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Well, I don't know that I ever expected to find myself in full -time vocational ministry in the church I mean for one thing at the time that I would the

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Bible is completely against it for one thing Is that a young adult in young adulthood?

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There just really weren't a lot of spots on church staffs for women who would have wanted to pursue full -time vocational ministry

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And so I didn't set out with any kind of agenda whatsoever I really just started walking toward a need in the local church and trying to meet it and I grew up in a home with four brothers who

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I was Close with a father who I was close with and my brothers and my father

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Loved and affirmed me and treated me as an equal and someone whose gifts were something to be celebrated

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Not surprisingly, I married a man who was the same way Jeff was not he didn't find the things about me that others might find threatening threatening he saw them as things to to lift up and to To celebrate and support and I grew up a home with feminist brothers and a feminist father and then surprise surprise

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I married a feminist husband and they just they were just they just let me do whatever I I wanted to do

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And then that's how I grew up into full -time ministry in the church out of school I took a job in working for a large department store chain in the buying offices and it wasn't until I started volunteering in a church setting that I Understood that not everyone valued the gifts and contributions of women equally

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The first place that I felt that was in the local church And I always hasten to say when

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I talk about this that there are no villains in my story And I mean that I mean that deeply

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I do think that there are some ways of treating women that have become normative over time and that even good men

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Can operate in those patterns just because it's the ecosystem in which they were raised up into ministry and perhaps has never been

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Evaluated so my experience was that I was an eager learner someone who

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Because the last time we did this whole thing. She had a lot of things to say, but not a lot of specifics and She's you know kind of making some accusations here.

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You know, they didn't tell you women like they're supposed to There weren't villains though But I wonder if she's gonna get specific because I would imagine the specifics would really make a big difference here

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Because some people would say, you know The church doesn't value the contributions of women because they can't be leaders because they can't be elders, you know pastors they can't teach in mixed, you know company or whatever it is or teach theology or things like that and For those reasons they don't value but you see these things are things we can directly from the

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Bible So what you're really saying is God doesn't value the contributions of women and things like that. And so These things need flesh and blood you can't just say these things we don't believe you anymore

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We just don't believe you. I saw this great interrogation. I felt so bad for this lady because she was obviously

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Addicted to alcohol and she shows up to school the first day of school She's a teacher and she's drunk she shows up to school drunk and they confront her and I saw the interview that they confront her with and She just lies.

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Oh, she's obviously ashamed of herself I mean, ah, she deserved to be fired. I'm not saying she didn't deserve be fired

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But she's so she's got so much shame and rightfully so she doesn't want to tell anyone who don't call her husband

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She just keeps lying to try to cover her tracks Anyway, so she changed her story numerous times numerous times and then she finally comes out with what's probably the truth

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And what's probably the truth is that and she says she says that she says she drank on the way to school she didn't drink at school she drank on the way to school and The later the cop says well, where's the cup that you drank at school with and she's like, well, you know

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I I I didn't drink at school and he's like, well, I don't believe you and it's just like that point I guess eventually, you know

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You you don't get you're not believed after a while because you've changed your story You've lied so many times and things like that.

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And so, you know, the thing is we don't believe you if you you you you You you've you've you've lost your credibility at that point, you know, you you said these things or oh, this is a textbook misogyny

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It's like well, you know now we don't really know what you're talking about. It's a boy who cried wolf It's just as simple as that the boy I could have said that very easily the boy who cried wolf says to formal theological training but was teaching in the local church and very much wanted to grow in my teaching gift and I didn't know who

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I could go to for help I did go to my pastor my church in Houston and he actually was an open door for me

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He offered to loan me commentaries and he listened to one of my recordings of my teachings and gave me feedback

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But as you can imagine if I had been a young 23 year old man who had shown up on his doorstep and in fact, there was that guy at our church

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There were so many more doors and opportunities that just naturally would open to him than would to me

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Because among other reasons optics, right? That's always a big concern and and and often dicks among other reason optics

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But What kind of way is that to frame it? You see this is the thing and the first time around when we when we you know, did a

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Jen Wilkin thing She's pretty conniving. She's smart. She's smart. Did you see how she just said that?

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Um, if a 23 year old male would have come to him and said I want to learn more about theology

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There would be a lot more doors open to them for you know, among other reasons optics With like like the other reasons are like serious legitimate biblical concerns that come directly from the pages of God the

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God you claim to love and Then you say you just put those into the some other reasons

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Include but but especially optics optics is what you choose to focus on So you choose the most petty sounding one, which really isn't petty sounding it up It really isn't petty at all.

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But to an American audience, that's how it's just optics It's just who cares you just like a throwaway thing just optics and then all of like the

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Hardcore like hard reasons that they would be for for a male to have more ministry doors open than for a women

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Legitimate things that I think I think you would agree with honestly, I have no idea Those just get shoved into among other reasons

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So you just so an undisciplined listener as a listener who wants to sin in this way

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Thinks oh those other reasons are just as petty as the reason that she give they must be just as petty because she would have

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Certainly went with the strongest one. So the strongest one must be optics and those other reasons

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That must be even more petty than optics She's a slick one this one.

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This this one is Extremely conniving and and I gotta be honest like I feel completely comfortable saying that oh among other reasons optics

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As if there's nothing as if there's no real legitimate reason Maybe she'll get into the legitimate reasons

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I'm assuming she will but that little that little rhetoric right there. That is some conniving stuff.

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That's very conniving very conniving Jen Very very conniving

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Wow, I dealt with women like this when I was working in New York City In on Wall Street stuff

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I dealt with women like this and and and and these these are the kind of people that you do you you just you give them the minimal amount of information that you can because they will take any little tiny thing and Just right in the back

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These are like the sharks, you know and in Wall Street and I have learned through the years I didn't have like language experts

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I mean like this is this is this is some this is some sophisticated stuff like like like that little that little piece of rhetoric

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Right there you guys might think that wasn't a big deal. That's a huge deal She she shoved all of the legitimate concerns

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Someone might have for a woman in leadership put him into nothingness and then said optics.

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This is optics This is just optics listen optics actually do matter. But again, that's the the most petty sounding one she could say

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Unreal man, this is Listen, I don't remember if I revealed who's the one who wanted me to do this

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So I'm gonna keep it under wraps because that's the kind of guy I am but I'll tell you what I'll tell you what

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Thanks for the recommendation. This is good. This is good stuff Haven't not gone to seminary so I would not have known this firsthand, but that often men in ministry have been told

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That women are to be treated in a guarded banner because they are either showing up as a usurper someone who wants to take a temptress someone who wants to Sleep with them or as a child someone who is needy and is going to require more of their time than they can give

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Wow Sure, so so here's the truth Sometimes women and it's very clear when they do this are coming as usurpers

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I've been to many churches where there are certain women that have done this Sometimes women come to you as a temptress the

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Bible is very clear about this, you know, you read the book of Proverbs I've been reading the book of Proverbs to my sons at at dinnertime and the amount of times the

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Proverbs warn about the temptress type archetype is

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Very interesting. It's again and again and again and again and again and again and again

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This is a big warning that the scripture gives and then the child thing.

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I mean, I don't know anything about that I don't even know what she's talking about. Maybe she just made it up. Who knows?

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I'd like to see some receipts I don't think we're gonna see some receipts, but look at this We've got a beautiful black man, and I'm sure he's about to drop some wisdom on us

25:43

He's about to drop some wisdom on us. Uh Jen, I'm sure that there's so many more details to the arc of your story

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I just want to say for one, you didn't give us any details but I'm sure that there and I'm sure there's lots of evidence and proof that this was that these people were misogynist to you and They and they didn't open them door to you because you was a woman and it was because optics

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I'm sure there's a lot of evidence for that But you don't have to give it to it. Yeah, we just believe you. I believe you

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I appreciate you sharing it with us and then two Our ministry has been the personal beneficiaries of your story and your work early in the days of planting

26:30

But I don't know maybe had another shirt on he's still probably like a ninja price United Fellowship we used

26:37

She reads truth. So that was a pretty foundational Study for our women and that's let's see now.

26:44

We're talking almost 10 years now. So Appreciate all your contributions to the kingdom. What do you think?

26:51

Just building off of what you shared are some of the core insecurities or idols male pastors have to work through To lead a church into a healthy culture as it pertains to women in the church

27:03

Notice again, this is this is classic gospel coalition. He's not asking.

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What are the theological? Challenges that people need to work through what are the Bible passages that people need to work through?

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What what is the what is the scripture people need to work through? No, it's what are the idolatrous, you know?

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Assumptions or the evil like what's the evil you need to overcome in order to truly honor women?

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It's just unbelievable this gospel coalition these guys that Ninja Turtle honestly think particularly among younger pastors the the

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Insecurities around like the the stereotypes that I just mentioned. They're not so much there

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I actually think that's kind of an older demographic of pastors who are Thinking about things from a different lens younger guys face the pressure of conformity

27:53

It's if I decide to step out of line and and actually operate out of a brother -sister Mentality if I actually believe that the

28:02

New Testament one another's mean don't mean men over here and women over here If I believe that the church really is the family of God I'm going to meet with scrutiny from my peers who are going to say that I'm doing something dangerous or even unbiblical

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And so, you know at my own church, this was a real Journey for us at the village

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We started writing our paper that you can find on our website now about eight years ago

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And it was because it was I would love to tell you it was because we were concerned about our theological position

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It was actually born out of a deeply pastoral moment a huge public failure that the church Had in regard to a counseling case that went sideways a care case that was mishandled

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And at that point we began to ask Let's say for the sake of argument that we have a pure theology and that is something that every church

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I think has to go and re -examine many of us dragged and dropped someone else's version of this into our website

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But let's say for the sake of argument that our theology on men and women is pure Is our practice that has resulted from it here?

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I'm gonna pause here and this will be the end of the video. I Really want you to to hear the language that she's using here the way she's speaking this this woman is

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Intelligent no question about it. Very smart. She's choosing her words Very carefully.

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She's an excellent communicator and she just gave you the impression that she's an elder at Village Church She didn't say that But notice what she's doing

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She says we She uses we we had a counseling issue that we failed at and You know we decided to write this paper

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And so we put that we'd examined our theology and then we examined our practice

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What's the role that she's assumed for herself? She just got done talking about how oh, it's just women are not you therapists and now she's saying we who's the we

30:08

Who in the church would be examining theology? Divorce it from this context for a second who in the church would have failed in a counseling situation assuming they did

30:20

I know nothing about this situation. I'm not saying they did fit I have no idea what they're talking about But just assume for a second that the church failed in a counseling situation and the church

30:30

Decided to re -evaluate their theology and the church decided to evaluate their orthopraxy and all of this stuff who in the church if you're a conservative

30:38

Christian Who in the church is the we that's doing those things? That would be the elders that would be the pastors of the church that failed the pastors of the church that re -evaluated their theology the pastors of the church that re -evaluated their orthopraxy the pastors of a church that are putting together a a document

31:01

When she says we she's part of that group, maybe not in name, maybe not in title, but she is part of that group

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This is why people warn about usurpers because of women like you a

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Lot of times a lot of times these usurper types. They're pretty traditional. They're not like Jen Jen's not that traditional

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Well, at least in this way, I don't know anything about her personal life But what

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I've noticed in New England, especially that a lot of these women are actually pretty traditional and they are against women pastors

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But they take the role of pastor in Every way except they're not preaching on Sunday They're one of the elders.

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They're part of the group and a lot of times the way they do it is through the deacon board They'll get on the deacon board and then they'll turn the deacon board into like the second house of Congress So they have two elder boards

31:57

You've got the elders and you've got the deacons and they're basically both elders and they're basically fighting over power over various things and things

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Like that. This is how it happens in New England. This is not just churches that I've been to this is many churches in New England they've got this kind of dual, you know, like the

32:13

House of Representatives and the Congress and the and the Senate And you've got women on the other side and they're exercising authority in that role the very thing the

32:23

Bible's Specifically says they are not to do Specifically says and so what do you call a woman who starts acting and and and and using authorities?

32:34

That's the Bible specifically says she does not have You call them a usurper

32:40

You call them Again, I maybe there's some details here that I'm missing out on but I just I just found it interesting

32:47

She did not say she's a pastor. She did not say she was participating in these things

32:52

But by saying we the listener a Normal listener would be like, oh she was part of this.

33:00

She was totally part of it Maybe she was just saying the royal we as the church. But again, I think the language matters here

33:06

I really do maybe she's just saying we because she's part of village church Just like anybody who part of village church would have said we maybe maybe

33:15

I Don't think so though. I Don't think so and I got to be honest with you I'm from Brooklyn, so I know a hustle when

33:22

I'd see one in any case. I hope you found this video helpful God bless