Sunday School - Teaching On Baptism (Cessationism) - Part 4

Heavenly Father, we open our day in worship with us This morning at Sunday school

that you would lead us and guide us and direct us according to your word.

You be with us this day as we offer throughout this day worship.

That is due to your name and we come to you because of Jesus Christ Pleading his blood and his merits

as our only access to you and by that very become bold In the throne of grace even this morning we ask all these

things in Jesus name.

Amen.

So show of hands.

Who's had someone come up to them and say God told me to tell you

now.

I'm curious how you handled that.

I just want to have a little discussion before we even begin Sunday school.

We're gonna talk about continuationism.

Which is do the gifts continue the gift of miracles the gift of prophecies given to individuals

or did they end with the apostles?

We as a church are what we call cessationists.

We believe the cessationists that there was a certain time period where those gifts were extant for a

particular reason.

Who had a particular purpose and their purpose has passed.

So let me ask you again, just introductory.

Can somebody tell me about that word of God?

Oh no, God told me to tell you that he's gonna use you mightily.

Okay, like that, but it was in the church where I went to was a charismatic church.

And so but yeah, that's uh, yeah as they're praying for me.

You know they were saying like God's telling me to tell you that he's gonna use you mightily.

Amen.

Anything you'd share with me?

Not so much in that sense.

But it was more in the sense of like when I was sharing my story and what had happened to me.

It was like, oh so God spoke to you, right?

What did he say to you?

And that word there will share their vision or their dream, you know, how God spoke to

them.

And generally out of respect and with some willingness to get into the debate, I just kind of bite my tongue and just kind of smile.

I had a bible study when I was early in my Christian life.

We had a bible study at the house for converted Jews.

And converted Jews tend towards for some reason, I never quite figured out, they were charismatic sort of,

you know, beliefs.

And one of the contenders, I can't even remember her name, I just called her a loud person.

She found out that I'd never spoken in tongues, I'd never even heard of tongues.

She was gonna pray one of them.

And she knelt down at my coffee table, I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait.

And I was early in my Christian life, and I just said, you know, God wanted me to have a tongue.

And that's all I knew, it just made sense to me.

I had no biblical background, no biblical support for that.

So how do I get into that place?

If God told me to tell you something, that doesn't mean that if

God Almighty told me to tell you something, you better believe it.

You better do it.

Because I'm not speaking on my part.

God told me to tell you, this is important,

and it should also come to pass.

God told me to tell you that your baby's gonna be fine.

And I know somebody actually told me that she was like, I got to tell no woman that.

If you do that, then the woman, you know, the pregnancy goes into trauma.

She has a sore child.

The question that we want to talk about is cessationism versus continuationism.

And I want to give us some support to understand the biblical idea of

why do we believe that the horizons of gifts have ceased?

That we're going to make a distinction between the gift and the man, or the woman in that sense, who

have happened.

I want to say right up front, as we talk about this question of what are signs and figures that were attributed to the

apostles, and the benefits of this research in the first century, what does it mean?

By being cessationists, there's something very important that we do not believe.

I'm going to say what we don't believe.

I'm going to say what they do not believe.

We do not believe that God stopped working.

We do not believe that God suddenly went to sleep.

It's okay, the last word of Revelation was written.

John put the period there after that, that's not meant.

I'm done.

We don't believe that.

We also do not believe that God has stopped working miracles.

As cessationists, that's not what we believe.

But positively, we believe that God is living and active and powerful.

By His Spirit, He is working in us, and He's working miracles.

We believe that.

Miracles of healing, miracles of conversion.

He is working today.

We do not believe He ceased working.

They're very particular, they're very specific.

There's a certain type of giftedness attributed to the apostles, and it was for that

purpose in them to establish the church that don't exist today, because that purpose

was accomplished.

So the signs and wonders attributed to the apostles, manifested in the first century, can continue.

And if they continue, if they're manifested in the modern church, are they or should they be normal?

How do we answer that?

So we're going to look at this for a few weeks, since we've got a full

study.

Because if those are ought to be normal, those miraculous gifts of speaking in tongues, the

word from God that I told the people about you, if those things are normative, then that would also beg

another question.

If those things are normative, then should we

normatively experience them?

And if we don't, are we really a church?

In other words, if that super charismatic side is correct, that speaking in tongues is the second blessing of God,

we're going to talk about this in some more detail.

If those things are right, you're supposed to speak in tongues,.

You're supposed to have a word from God, then I'm going to be able to explain it.

That's normative, or it should.

Are we a true church without that?

Should you be monotheists,.

Who believe that they haven't ceased, yet

tongues, the nonsense, that's a separate issue?

I think in tongues, to me it's sort of a rubric for the whole thing.

All those gifts of the first century, we see mainly in Acts.

So it's the miracle work of healing, that the many heads fell right smack in the head.

It was slain in the Spirit.

Is that what you're getting at, Dale?

Well, yeah.

I mean, there's a lot of nonsense.

Throughout all the nonsense, the speaking in tongues, the slaying in the Spirit, you've got a lot of gifts.

Throw them all together and say, well, it

puts two

ideas together.

I mean, gifts?

I think I know where you're going.

We're not saying that gifts have ceased.

We're not saying that God has ceased work.

We'll be very specific as we go through this.

We'll see.

I was going to ask, so we are saying that

if there's no walking,

you've got to walk around and speak prophecy.

That's what we're getting at,.

How Peter and John, even their own

shadow race, he was before.

We're not saying, that's what we're saying, that's ceased in that sense.

In a sense.

Yeah, the claim is that the sign gives the seeds.

Not that all gifts,.

Teaching, ministration.

Right.

1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12, Ephesians 4, there is a gift.

God gives you to a person.

That's something to bring to the ministry.

Do we believe prophecy has ceased?

No.

But we have to be definitive about that.

When Connolly or Ryan or I preach, that's a prophetic ministry.

We're not telling you anything new though.

We're telling you from the scripture, the complete scripture, and we're telling you truly what this means to us today.

That's a prophetic ministry in that sense.

Thank you.

I guess I'm saying, miraculous gifts, as you say, haven't

stopped, but I want to make sure we make a distinction between legitimate

miraculous gifts and nonsense that at any time throughout history was

nonsense or satanic.

Okay.

Yeah.

We do make that distinction.

This will come up today.

I apologize.

I have this only in my notes.

I'm going to let her into it.

I have this on screen for you.

I didn't even freak out with the lengths like Pastor Ryan does.

The idea is not that miracles cease.

The idea is that miracle works.

God's still working miracles, but someone doesn't have the deep heart anymore to say, I'm a rare

order.

I can smack you in the head and cure you of this or that or the other thing.

Do you pay attention to what Peter called a garment?

There's a distinction between a miracle worker and a miracle being worked.

We believe strongly, I believe strongly, that God works miracles today.

There's a distinction between a miracle and a miracle worker.

So, again, Sam Walter wrote a little book called To Be Continued.

The question of To Be Continued is to see how that goes.

I've looked at this question as well.

Wayne Rudum is the most credible reformed writer on this

subject.

He believes in continuation.

Sam Walter very credibly uses him to bring forth

incredible arguments in favor of continuationism.

We don't believe in it, but Wayne Rudum is an intellect, a highly respectable man, and he's written some

really good stuff about it.

I don't agree with him, but he's the counterpoint.

So why this and why now?

We're going to do it for a few weeks here.

One reason is just simply to be honest, because Brian is not well for a while.

That's why he's bringing this forward.

But also, has anybody heard of the third wave movement?

Raise your hand if you've heard of the third wave movement.

Good, good.

Is that like N .A .R. or something?

N .A .R.?

New Apostolic Reformation?

I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

The modern day brain?

Oh, oh.

It's the third wave of charismatic patriarchal cosmopolitanism.

The first wave was I forget the author, the main guys who started in the early

20th century, the 1900s.

They had the Isuzu revival.

The second wave was the Vineyard movement.

The Vineyard?

The Vineyard movement.

The secret sensitive was the second wave of charismatic movement.

And now today there's a third wave.

A third wave of patriarchal cosmopolitanism.

And it's really igniting.

So we're going to hear more and more.

And as I said, has anybody ever told you God told me to tell you?

We had a hand raised.

Some of you came in later.

Many of us have a problem with that.

So it's a growing movement.

I want us to have answers for it.

I want us to understand even if you don't have to answer somebody who's told you that God told me to tell you something,

even if that has not happened to you, why the church believes in sensationalism.

And sensationalism is not just a dry, old, dusty.

Way of looking at things.

It's stale.

It's stale.

We do believe in the power of the word of God.

We do believe in the living and powerful and working in us the Holy Spirit who's gifted us.

We believe in God who does miracles.

Which in this church, we see that.

Okay?

I want us to have answers from scripture.

I want you to understand why it's so common out there for pastors of church we have to deal with.

So sensationalism does not mean you've got to stop working with these people.

It's superior individually or corporately.

We don't know the miracles that ceased when the last apostle died, when the Holy Spirit was alive and well.

What we do know is that the faith that was delivered to us in

chapter 3 is the faith of the rule of all practice that we have.

It's in the scriptures.

We do know all that we serve are risen and living saviors as He was 1, 8, 5, 6, 6,.

26, 27, 28, Jesus lives.

He reigns, He receives.

Right now the whole of the Word of God is complete, it's powerful, and it's living and active.

The issue really boils down to whether we have a complete and objective revelation from God regarding salvation

and it's after -effects.

How are these being manifested?

The continuation is resorting to even expecting of new revelation from God and through others.

Have we ever told you that God told me to tell you something?

More than that, the Second Blessing The Second

Blessing is part of this whole movement

that started in the 1900's and it's really important.

The Second Wave, which was the Third Wave The Second Blessing is after you're

saved that you speak in tongues.

I've never heard a tongue actually used in church.

Can you describe it in any way for us?

Because I've never heard it.

I suppose I could give a demonstration.

No, no, no.

Just describe it in English, please.

It's a lot of babbling depending on the education of the person.

I mean, I really don't believe in miraculous.

I think the education of the person a lot of times will be, you know, more advanced vocabulary

or subversive.

The farmer who would sit behind me in the Pentecostal church I was raised at would always say, Chikada,

Chikada, Chikada.

That was the only word he said.

Chikada, Chikada, Chikada.

And there's another man who just said Shambhala, Shambhala, Shambhala.

But, you know, people with more education, they would say more things and so on.

Yeah.

I should have brought this up earlier, but many years ago I had an old diesel truck.

I brought it to a mechanic in Hebrew.

I told him.

He said, He said, You need new injectors.

He said, no, you can do it.

I said, I have multiple sclerosis.

I can't put my fingers.

So I don't want to mess with this thing.

You do it, I'll give you money.

You do it.

That was about this tall.

And I have multiple sclerosis.

He says, Lord, we repudiate this demon.

Lord, we tell you.

Lord, we totally tell you.

You're going to be okay.

I've been a Christian for about nine months.

This just totally blew my mind.

He didn't do that.

He didn't say Chikada.

Whatever that was I'm not trying to make fun of him.

I wasn't trying to joke either.

But he had something that he repeated there too.

So So Here's a key premise that the continuations must make.

They agree that there's no more apostles.

The last apostles are probably all died.

They agree that the men of that office that were personally set aside by Christ himself are

dead.

They then know that there's a distinction between miraculously gifted people and the

miracles that they perform.

This is in chapter 20 page 12 of this book.

A distinction between miraculously gifted people and the miracles that they perform.

So the church has miracle workers who are not apostles in the continuationist sense.

And there's a distinction between the person with the gifts and the gifts that they perform.

So the Bible supports this.

Our spiritual gifts separate from the one gift.

That's what's important.

Our gifts separate from the one who's gifted.

Look at Ephesians chapter 4 in verse 8 to 11.

This is regarding the gifts that Jesus has given to his church.

Is there a distinction between the gift and the one who works the gift.

Therefore it says when he ascended on high as Jesus he led a host of captives and he gave

gifts to them.

What does it mean that he who had also descended in the lower regions of the earth.

He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all heavens that he might fill all things.

And he gave the apostles the prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers and so forth to the

church.

So what is the gift to the church?

What's the gift to the church?

It's the men themselves that are the gifts.

It doesn't say that Christ gave the gift to a man to be used in the church.

But the apostles the prophets and so forth are the gifts.

So this is a quick discursive statement.

There was a couple here that were members of this church and then they objected that

that entire list there had all one temporal context.

In other words, when it says that the gifts that Christ gave to the church were apostles, prophets, evangelists,

shepherds, and teachers that all five of those should be extended into the church.

Now the concern was that they were having children, that their children would be limited by this church

in their development and the development of their gifts especially their girls.

Their girls might be a prophet.

And it says here that the church has prophets.

A woman might be an apostle.

They're appealing to scripture.

But the answer to that really is and I worked with him quite a bit and that's when I was

introduced to Wayne Gruden and read his book about the spiritual gifts of teaching in the church.

It's entirely within the realm of.

Eureka, Eureka, Claude, and language to have less attention to precise

chronology than Westerners are accustomed to.

We like to mind pick up 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

And we take chronology as year 1, then year 2, then year 3 and so forth.

I like that.

You get this really clearly if you read the Synoptic Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

You see how they line up chronologically because that's just what they did.

Then read John who has almost no concern for the actual order.

I have no concern.

That never states the case.

He's less concerned.

He breaks the Greek law.

It's not quite so linear as we are.

So the idea here is that we have from Paul that list of those five gifts of the church.

They don't all have to be in the church.

All of them.

It could be a sequence.

Two of them he's not concerned with.

He's talking about the establishment of the church.

The Prophets were until John.

So if there are Prophets in the church We would say that the Prophets were until John.

John was the greatest of them.

That's what Jesus says in Matthew 11.

The Prophets were until John.

A lot of scholars say John was the last Old Testament prophet.

Here, you could call him the first New Testament prophet.

Whatever that is Jesus says he was the greatest.

And the end of the prophecy was with him.

Ezekiel.

Jeremiah.

And then the Apostles Clearly came after that.

Those who were first Apostles came after the Prophets.

But they all listed their inefficiencies.

They come first.

So it's not chronological.

So So it's entirely possible For all to have given the order Just to make his point That the church was

founded by the Apostles.

And so they come first in that list Because the church was built upon Their

Testament Life and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So evangelists, shepherds, and teachers Could all have different time frames From the rest.

And for Apostles and Prophets to have passed As Apostles And the rest to remain.

Here we get a little convoluted Sounding here.

But what we're saying is That list of the five Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Shepherds, and so forth.

They're not.

Paul is not trying to give us an exact sequence of events.

They're not all in the same time.

He's not concerned With the time frame of Apostles versus Apostles.

He's concerned with this.

What is the church built upon.

The prophetic ministry Of the prophetically Old Testament if you will.

That led to an understanding Of Jesus Christ as life, as death As burial, as resurrection.

And the Apostolic Witness Eyewitness of that Remember we're coming to.

We're trying to work out Whether Apostolic Gifts Are extant To today.

He gave gifts To men

Not to church.

Again I'm not quite sure I understand the question.

The gifts they give to the church.

As it says It doesn't say church.

He gave gifts To men.

He teaches of course about church.

And he's leading up The whole argument That he teaches.

Is going to church.

It's because it's quoting a psalm.

The psalm is not going to mention the church.

He's applying the psalm to the church.

But he's not going to change the word men to church.

So Walter says.

Specifically the idea is The victor, the king Giving the spoils to his troops.

So there are particular people.

That are the troops.

Walter says on page 12.

Similarly In 1st Corinthians 12 29.

Apostles, prophets and teachers Are current lists Of the gifts.

He asks all who work miracles.

And he's asking there Whether all of our miracle workers Implied that the miracle worker

Was specific to the one who worked it.

That is the miracle Cannot be distinguished from the miracle worker.

The miracle Cannot distinguish from the miracle worker.

Who are the miracle workers?

Apostles.

Apostles work miracles.

And I skeptically agree.

As Peter and John Are going to the temple And see the man who's laying there in the temple And he expects all.

And Peter says, gold and silver.

I have not But if I have I give to you freely In the name of Jesus Christ.

Stand and walk.

Okay?

It was a mere miracle.

The lame man was able to take up his hat And dance.

It was the miracle worker Peter.

John didn't.

I'm not saying John was incapable.

But it was Peter The miracle worker who worked the miracle.

So the apostles It's important to understand Whether the apostle Or all of us

Is extant to today.

Charismatics believe And will agree That the last apostle Appointed by Jesus died.

Is the apostolic ministry.

One of the last Draws on my membership At my previous church Was when the senior pastor

Started from worship on a Sunday morning.

And when the curtain came up He was on a high -rise chair.

And as it developed Very dramatically.

And from that chair He told us That God told him.

God told me That I And the apostles Would

frequently What God told

you.

I guess you would never agree.

Because you read my Bible About people who God told Something and they ignored it So God

told you.

And as it developed very dramatically He came right behind him.

There was a son on a high -rise chair And I was his.

And God told me The son is the prophet Which I sit here.

So if God.

Still worked me in that way.

Appointed by that.

You know we have a bit of a problem.

At the time I didn't know anything about Cessationism or continuationism And I'm not sure that Jesus had spoken Personally

to him and told me these things.

And that's the problem.

He was an apostle And he spoke directly for God.

Just a quick addendum.

His son who was the prophet In 2018 I believe it was Completely apostatized from the faith

You know.

So

He was clearing the way To no longer follow the objective

standards Of the Bible.

If God was telling him these things He was speaking apostolic glory That each church is our own

Catholic church.

And that was a third way That was especially configured.

So the question is still About the apostles.

Are the apostles extant today.

And this has a lot to do with why we're Cessationists or don't believe in Continuationism.

Would the apostles Especially give their admission for their Particular task in time.

Yes.

This is key to charismatic Apostle third way movements.

They understand implicitly the new revelation Words directly from the Lord To the individual That are not

verifiable by the Bible Depends on the continual office of The continuing

apostolic offices.

And the apostle.

So first We need to find the

apostle And What it is What it means.

The apostle Comes from apostolo.

Apostolo Which means to send.

As an Apostle It would be sent.

Jesus could send And they would use that word But as an apostle And then fulfill

certain qualifications That can't be met today.

What are the qualifications.

Of an apostle.

True apostle.

They actually saw the risen Jesus.

That's it.

They actually saw the risen Jesus.

In Acts Chapter 1 verse 21 -22 When the 11 apostles

Killed themselves Under Peter's direction They looked to replace

Jesus.

So one of the men Peter says.

So one of the men who have accompanied us During all the times of the Lord Jesus Went in and out among us Beginning from the

baptism of John Until the day he was taken out from us.

One of these men must become A witness to his resurrection.

Now Did anyone see Jesus' resurrection Other than the apostles.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A lot of people did.

Paul says it's 500 people who are still alive.

He says 500 people.

You know them, they're your friends.

They're your neighbors, they're your co -workers.

They saw the risen Jesus.

There were people who Disciples who walked with Jesus And who

Probably were there at the cross Like they buried his mother there And saw him die And saw his

resurrected self later.

Why weren't they all apostles.

Another key to The first century apostle.

Not only as Emmanuel says Rightly.

And they can give witness To the resurrected Lord But appointed By the Lord

Appointed by the Lord.

John 15, 26, 27.

Jesus says when the helper comes He's the Holy Spirit Whom I will send to you from above As a spirit of truth.

He will bear witness about me.

And you will also bear witness Because you have been with me From the beginning.

The beginning is important.

The spirit Was not exclusively theirs It happens to all believers.

Jesus is declaring those Who are there, those who are apostles Who are coming shall finally First

John 1 That which was from the beginning Which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes Which we have looked

on and touched with our hands.

And so forth, those are apostles.

Now you and I Can again send their witness To the resurrection, can we not?

Because God has given us faith.

And faith is what we say about Jesus Christ.

Because the spirit is witness To us, to bear witness To the truth of the resurrection.

And any of us say that we heard Jesus speak.

We saw him with our own eyes.

We looked upon him We touched him with our hands.

He's God He's in heaven.

Walton points out.

I think he's pretty gracious in page 23.

Most continuations Do not lay claim To being apostles of Christ.

In the formal sense I've had a little bit of experience With God as Jesus

As he was raised in the way That is a new revelation That does depend upon prophetic authors Which

ended with John according to Jesus Or apostolic apostles To be our arguments.

So the New Testament Apostle had to be a witness To Jesus'

resurrection And personally appointed By Jesus.

Now this is a pretty easy proof.

Matthew 10 1 -4.

And he called to him his twelve disciples And gave them authority over unclean spirits To cast them out of every

disease And every affliction.

The names of the twelve apostles are these.

For Simon was called Peter And Andrew was called Robert James the son of Zephi and John his brother Philip and

Bartholomew Thomas and Matthew the tax collector James the son of Alphaeus.

That is Simon the zealous Judas Iscariot who betrayed him.

They had the disciples.

There were many others who were called disciples Who walked with him Probably from

the larger group.

Just the twelve who were called up.

Twelve are the ones he named personally As apostles 613 With

Luther the first And Jesus also Although it's in 1 Corinthians 15 7.

And then Jesus appeared to James And called all the apostles Classical to be And one at a time All

by his own

magicians Called the oddball.

But the testimony of Jesus Of the occurrence of his apostolic position Was confirmed by the

other apostles As Acts chapter 9 verse 26.

And we'll begin again here Just to be sure we understand.

The apostolic office Was there.

It was for Eyewitness to Jesus' life His death His resurrection.

And on top of that There were others who could make that testimony.

They saw him He could read the synoptic gospels.

On top of that He went personally by Jesus.

The apostolic office Was confirmed by By miracles.

Okay?

I don't want to make this.

It was confirmed by miracles.

Let's just run through It Acts.

And all came upon Every soul.

And many wonders and signs were being done Through the apostles.

And the great power of the apostles Were given to their testimony To the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

And great graces upon them all.

Acts chapter 5.

And many signs and wonders were regularly done Among the people by the hands of the apostles.

And Acts chapter 4 As I mentioned before When Peter healed the man Who had been lame.

So what do we have here?

We read the acts of miracles.

I don't know about whether miracles are Normatives in the church.

Back then it was the apostles' hands That were being used For all the confirmed

miracles.

The evangelist Stephen Who was one of the seven deacons.

In Acts chapter 6 They also did signs and wonders To confirm their messages about Jesus' resurrection.

And I've got a lot of quote I'm having here but There have been two

That did miracles That were not Specifically appointed apostles.

There's a real reason for that.

We want to know If there are records from that Explain that.

We might note that there are no fervent records Of non -apostolic miracles in Acts.

Only those two.

Stephen.

And the evangelist Philip.

2 Corinthians 2 .12.

Signs of the true apostles.

Signs of the true apostles.

Signs of the true apostles.

Signs of the true apostles.

We're working on the apostles.

We're working on the apostles.

We're talking about whether that apostolic office Ended in the first century.

What was for it.

What's normative for us today.

Should we expect that office to continue And those miraculous gifts to be Normative here.

Let me just give you He's making this case That the apostolic office

Had been built In Jesus' time.

He's making the church Had been built.

Something was done.

The church had been built On the foundation Of the apostles.

I also say to you Peter.

And upon this rock I will build my church.

And the gates of Hades Will not be broken.

And the first rock Is Peter's confession Jesus Christ The Son of God.

Revelation 21 .14.

And all the city had twelve foundations.

And on them twelve names Of twelve apostles.

So all these are indicating The foundation will be done.

It's Jesus' turn Powerfully building this church today.

It's a continuing process.

But the foundation is done.

What's important about that.

The building of the foundation Of the apostles.

How does that help us In this question That we're trying to develop As to what's

important to the church.

Do we have anything about that.

Are you kind of hinting that the foundation is laid And can't be laid again.

No foundation is laid.

But Jesus Christ Who preached Jesus Christ.

The prophets preached his coming.

The apostles preached his completion.

That's the foundation.

The foundation is laid.

That's why we're so focused on The faith of the twelve deliverance.

Because it gives us that foundation.

It tells us what we're built upon.

We can't go any further than that.

Jesus is building a church.

And it is continuous.

It's active.

I would argue A powerful activity.

God right now.

But the church that's being built Has to be consistent With that foundation.

It's only the men who are named Apostles.

Persecuted by Jesus Christ.

To satisfy all the conditions of an apostle.

Therefore We accept no new revelation.

From God himself.

That claims to be something other than scripture.

That claims a knowledge or an insight.

That scripture cannot confirm.

That in any way contradicts our attitudes.

As a church we're speaking for.

A new revelation from God Woe to us if we don't believe it.

But it's not from God Woe to them.

For claiming that it is.

Has anybody read Rudy's book.

I'm going to continue.

You can get this in your church.

It's one for that Conference they had years ago.

They told us it was one of the first great things.

And it's interesting.

I can't find one.

I moved out of the office here.

When Ryan was hired I just can't find it.

It's disorganized.

It's a continuation.

He believes.

That apostolic giftedness Exists in the church today.

And he doesn't make that distinction Between miracle and miracle.

It's an interesting thing that he does.

I wish I had the book.

Maybe I'll find it.

Maybe people will engage.

If the attribution really should.

But if the prophecy is in the church.

What does 1 Corinthians 14 Talk about.

When someone is speaking in tongues.

When someone is making a prophetic word Others have to interpret.

You have to interpret.

It's interesting what he does with that.

As he moves to this idea.

That God is speaking to you.

God told me to tell you.

That's what he does.

Here's what he does.

I'm going to go really hard.

To go hard against.

This is using the root.

I have a lot of respect for him.

When the person says God told me to tell you.

The root also is an under -precession.

He's giving you an under -precession.

That's the root he uses.

It's an interesting thing to think about.

I've got to look at Jeremiah.

Doesn't really name him.

Who's there?

God gave him words.

God told them what to speak, but it gives you an impression that this is going back to God.

And the interpreters then sort of discern the

accuracy or the applicability of it.

And so as it goes from the person who's got that prophetic word through the one or two interpreters and

then to church, you get to decide whether or not to be positive.

Anything wrong with that?

Well, if you get to decide, then you're basically bypassing hermeneutics.

Bypassing what?

You're bypassing hermeneutics.

Okay, bypassing hermeneutics.

Okay.

It's too subjective.

I've lived with this throughout.

I start speaking in tongue, or I have a prophetic word.

And John Davis and Dale come and they hear it, and they help interpret it, and they

make sense of it to you.

And then you hear it, and you say, well, now it's completely me.

Yeah, you're saying it's not safe to ignore actual prophecy from the Lord for us.

So God told Jesus, I'm going to decide whether or not I'm going to follow God or not.

It's you run into the conflict of

the authority of God's word, which cannot be denied, and how you can bring

it into church going through a person who's on top of the scripture that we're learning.

So it's an interesting muddle that Wayne Grubin gets into.

Again, I have a lot of respect for him.

I've read a lot of his works.

His systematic theology is really great.

I refer to him a lot.

I'm not throwing him under the bus or anything like that.

But it's an interesting thing to have a continuing prophetic ministry that's God speaking the truth

and holding the authority of God's word and yet it's coming through a person who's at

the scripture.

It's completely so we can't add to it.

You see the conflict that he gets into there?

So the first

hurdle in determining whether cessationism is correct

or continuationism is incorrect, the first hurdle, and this is all we're going to do today.

We're going to look at this some more next week when we're going to come out and have the slides and make it more

easy to follow for you, is how the scholarly ministry does it continue today?

Are we working miracles in the same way today?

Is it to be normative in the church?

Can someone speak from God to us?

Our answer to all this would be no.

We would say that it wasn't just the apostolic office that you hear today would be re

-ended.

It would be my last apostle.

But also the way that God works his miracles.

I

think I've got you a little….

Are there questions about this?

Do you understand where we're going with this?

Maybe you can repeat.

What's the muddling of wavering?

Oh, can you repeat?

What's the muddling of wavering?

That the scripture is complete.

He would hold this as if you've got the faint ones for all to deliver.

And yet, he wants to hold fast to the continuation of the gifts, the apostolic gifts

in the church.

Which means that individuals can be spoken to by God and

speak to you in God's name.

God gave me a word for you.

He calls it an impression.

God gives you an impression.

And then the one or two others interpret it, make sure it's right, and then deliver it to the church.

But because it's only an impression, then you as an individual

will hear it and say, Okay, this doesn't just not apply to me.

And that's how he gets around adding to scripture.

And yet having these words, these impressions that don't exactly agree with scripture.

So it's a quasi -form of extra -biblical revelation?

Yes.

Quasi is a good way to describe it.

It's quasi, but it allows him, I don't think successfully, but

it allows him to say, Scripture is complete.

I'm not adding to scripture.

And yet God is speaking through me to you.

And it doesn't necessarily have to be my description.

It's the one I heard where a person told me that she actually went to

a person.

I think it was an airport.

And said, God told me to tell you that your pregnancy is going to be okay.

I have no idea whether the pregnancy was okay or not.

She had a wonderful child.

Or her husband.

A long time ago.

Maybe it was a single woman.

Yeah, but I have a problem with that.

God tells me something.

That doesn't mean that we're adding to scripture.

Or you have to.

I remember listening to Harold Camping.

He said, no, if God whispers in your ear, then we all need to take our Bibles out and write it in.

That God spoke this.

I don't believe that.

The scriptures are complete.

But if God wants to speak to someone, I don't think that that's a...

I would argue, though, that God does.

With what we have in the Word, to have something

that specific and that insightful takes beyond scripture.

I'd say the inconsistency isn't that.

Scripture never says anywhere that everything that's

prophesied must be recorded.

Obviously, there's a lot of prophecies that aren't recorded.

But inconsistency is what you have in Herodotus' model.

Something very different than biblical prophecy.

It's not verbal inspiration.

Where the words themselves are inspired.

It's just inspiration without the verbal.

And then the verbal part is uninspired.

Because it's me expressing that inspiration that I have.

Like it says at the end of 2 Peter 1, For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from

God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

That describes the words themselves being inspired.

This model where you're getting some inspiration, but then your words aren't inspired.

It's something very different.

In writing to Isaiah, this is a separate work, The king has a kayak.

It has the oil.

It's been diced.

It's been infected.

And the prophet tells him not to do it.

Is this like this person going up to a stranger and telling God to give it to me in a prayer?

He's going to be okay.

Well, no.

Because here we have a prophet of God whose works

and his words are confirmed in history.

They actually occur.

And he goes to the king and says you're going to live.

And then brings about that healing.

Not some repression.

And not something they can't improve later.

But then in his history, he has a kayak, pulls on the oil, and he's healed.

I've read a lot about what that oil could have been.

But apparently it's just a fracture.

It could have gotten into the blood.

It didn't.

So there is a difference.

It's not the same.

It could be spoken.

It could be written down.

I've often heard people speak of the sufficiency of Scripture.

And is there a good first point to you on that?

All Scripture is breathed out by God in second Timothy 3 .16.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction,.

And for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete and be equal for every good work.

As far as, you know, can you go up to a person and say, I was told to tell you that your presidency is going to be okay, or anything like that,

you would have, um, I just lost my train of thought.

Oh, oh, Ephesians 4.

Where we're speaking words according to Scripture that are good for necessary edification.

And the minister gives us a guideline, a balance, for what is necessary, to prove that that

is what is edifying.

I was late, so, you were talking about apostles, and I didn't know what I knew,

I don't know where I was taught or I heard.

That there's apostles with a capital A, and

that's just part of my kind of thing.

I've heard that before, I'm not real familiar with that, but I've heard that before, and the idea there, again, is

apostles with a capital A, as they say it, what they mean is the apostles

of the first century who lived and were appointed by Christ and then they make it a small a so

that they don't violate Scripture, and we still have apostles today.

So if I'm an apostle, I've got a pastor, and he made himself the apostle of Tri -City area, I'm an apostle, he might have

used a small a, as wrong as that was, in order to

confirm that he believes that the apostles appointed by Jesus Christ 2 ,000 years ago

were a special group, and then the apostolic apostles continued to do that.

I've heard of that before, but I don't think it holds up very well.

We're going to continue this we're going to continue this for a few more

weeks, God willing, we'll have some slides where we can get into some more.

The first issue, though, was the apostolic apostles.

And as we go, we're going to see more about this idea of the miracle versus the miracle of the worker, and

how those two distinguish the importance of it.

Remember too, as we'll go through this, we're arguing for stationism.

You'll often hear, okay, so you believe that God stopped working.

That's the only conclusion.

No, it's not the conclusion.

We believe that God is working today.

He's working in more active ways.

We've prayed for healing.

He's in this place.

We've known He is.

He's in this place.

Not by me, or Conley, or any of you, touching the person.

And through, you know, He is a miracle.

God by Spirit will do it in answer to our prayers.

So remember this, it's really important that by being cessationists we're not saying God stopped.

And that God doesn't interact with us.

It's a way of the process that we're going.

I've got a couple of

comments.

Did you end up talking about 2 Peter 1?

I think I alluded to it.

Anyone who wants to study more the requirements of an apostle, the last section of 2 Peter 1 is really good.

Where Peter says we're not following cleverly the Bible.

But we were eyewitnesses of His glory.

And then the other thing, and I feel like someone who's

hostile to the idea that apostles don't continue wouldn't someone wouldn't

find this persuasive, but something I would add to those requirements is not just having seen Jesus be set by Him, but actually

being taught by Jesus.

And I think we can see that from Acts 1 where it said that, you know, we need to pick someone who's been

with us from the beginning.

Not just from the end, but from the beginning.

And then with Paul, you even see that he in Galatians 1 it says,

nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia and returned again to Damascus.

Then after 3 years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained there for 15 days.

So Paul in pointing out that his apostleship is real, you know, that his gospel

is not coming from man but from God, points out that he went away for 3 years.

Now what was that 3 years for if not to be taught by Jesus?

Now, you know, there's not a whole lot written about that, but I do think every single one of the apostles was taught by Jesus for 3 years.

And the idea that you could just get some little vision to be set by Jesus without having actually been discipled

by him for years.

Good point, thank you.

I stopped so I don't have a tongue.

The guy who proselytized and got a good answer to it that

demon, 27 years later still says that.

A little louder.

I have one verse that I've very recently

been,

because it

says that he appeared to the 12th and then to James and then to the apostles.

The other apostles, I don't know which ones.

Did he appear to them again?

Yeah.

For I deliver to you as first importance what I also received, that Christ Jesus died for our sins and worked toward the scriptures.

He was buried and he was raised on the third day and worked toward the scriptures.

And he appeared to Cephas, then to the 12th.

Then he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom were still alive, we talked about that earlier,

though some fell asleep.

Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

What is that?

All the apostles.

He appeared to them again?

I would say so.

A certain sort of dozens and dozens of apostles.

Luke and Matthew make it clear.

That he made 12 apostles.

That doesn't include Paul, right?

No, he's in the next verse.

That's 12.

Last Apostle, one at a time before him, he also appeared to me.

That's Damascus, Jerusalem.

Prior to that, Damascus, Jerusalem is referred to in that verse is immediately after the

Resurrection.

Conley, do you know how long it was after the Resurrection that Paul was converted?

A couple of years ago.

And again, like I said, it's very clear in the very beginning that the Greek condition is not

necessarily so linear or chronological as ours is.

Any last thoughts or questions?

Let's pray.

Heavenly Father, I pray that you continue with us and continue with you in worship.

That Jesus Christ, Christ of God, that you would be brought closer to us and that you would work these things in us

by your Holy Spirit.

Amen.