Is Mental Illness a Myth?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

We're your hosts Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, is mental illness a myth?

Now this might be one that maybe a lot of Christians, they hear that question and they're like, of course it's real, what are you talking about?

Are you crazy? Right? But I think this is sort of the issue that we're going to end up having to address probably on the front end of this episode, is just how much this type of psychological ideology has really infiltrated the church.

Right, Tim? Right. Yeah. I mean, it's really remarkable when you think about this category of mental illness in general, because it is a category that is distinct from what you might describe as biological illness.

So the whole idea of mental illness is that just as the body can get sick, so also the mind can get sick.

And when you think about that assumption in general, it's a fairly absurd assumption.

And most people don't appreciate how absurd this assumption actually is. And this kind of goes to your comment that it's,

I mean, the idea of mental illness has been so pervasive in our society and so frequently taught.

It's the air we breathe right now. And many people just haven't stopped to think about what they're actually being asked to accept.

And if they just did a little bit of research into this kind of topic and just thought about what they're being asked to accept, they might find that this idea is fairly preposterous.

It's very counterintuitive. And, you know, why have we swallowed so much of this idea in general?

But as it goes, this is the standard state of affair. This is the air you breathe. And there's no easier way to get, quote unquote,

Christians mad at you than to question the legitimacy of any of these

DSM -5 mental illnesses that are out there. So with that being said, what would your answer to the question be?

Is mental illness a myth? Well, yeah. I mean, it's a fantastical fairy tale that is born out of materialism.

It's a myth. It's worse than a myth. It's like a, it's a fairy tale, man. Like, it's just like, you know, for you to believe in mental illness, you have to essentially believe in magic.

It's like, it's that bad. So like meaning, meaning like, so like, like what's happening here is that there's just profound category errors that are being made as it relates to this subject.

And it's so convoluted that, you know, what you're being asked to believe is multiple contradictory, illogical things all at once, even to make sense of what is actually being argued.

So, you know, at a popular level, what's actually happening, you know, when you think about what's happening at a popular level is that when you talk about mental illness, people immediately think brain problem, right?

Yeah. So, but then like, that's not really what mental illness is. Okay. So what is it?

I mean, so like, if you have a normal brain problem, that'd be like Alzheimer's or dementia or something like that. That would be a brain problem.

That would be where your brain is deteriorating. You can do a brain scan and you can see that this brain is abnormal in that way.

And there's objective evidence of pathology. There's objective tissue damage. And so like traditional medicine is going to deal with pathology.

It's going to deal with tissue damage or malfunction. There's some kind of physical damage is what you're saying.

Right, yeah. So if I break my leg, I go to the doctor, they're going to be able to run a test and they're going to show that my leg is broken, if that makes sense, right?

Right, yeah. So my leg is broken. Like they're going to be able to run a test and see, hey, look, here's your x -ray and this shows that your leg is broken and it's cracked here and this is the solution.

If you have cancer, they're going to be able to run a series of tests that show that you have an overproduction of cells and they're going to be able to demonstrate that through objective tests.

So the whole idea of mental illness was that this is a category distinct from biological illness.

That's what the whole idea of mental illness is. It's a category that's distinct from biological illness that's resulting from pathology.

So you come up with, like what the psychologists did, it was very clever, is that they've kind of, they're a pseudoscientific kind of endeavor and what they've done is they've like attached themselves onto the medical community like a parasite.

And that's what they've done. Like they're like a leech, you know, sucking at the, you know, the medical community as a host, you know, in that way.

Feeding off the life force of, their life force. Yeah, yeah. So what they've done is they've attached themselves to that and then they began to package all of their language in the language of medical disorder.

So all of your psychological labels are packaged in this like language of medical disorder. So you have obsessive compulsive disorder.

You have, you have - General anxiety disorder. General anxiety disorder, right?

You have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, right? So all of it is language, labeled in this language of disorder.

And, but then like the whole idea was so it started as a discipline distinct from medicine.

Meaning that, you know, traditional medicine deals with pathology. You know, psychology is not dealing with pathology.

It's dealing with, it's not dealing with organic illness. It's dealing with like this nebulous category of mental illness. Now what's happened in the mind of many people is that because we're so accustomed to using medical language to describe mental disorders now, in people's minds, they just assume that there's some biological etiology behind mental illness.

They assume that like there's, there's some kind of organic problem that is essentially it's a brain problem of some sort.

And so, you know, half the time what you're having is you're having people who are treating this as if it's an organic problem with no evidence behind that.

It's just, that's just the air you breathe. That's the assumption that there's, this is a mental disorder, man. What do you not understand?

It's a brain problem, man. Like, are you anti -science? You know, anti -medicine? So like the drugs are packaged as medicine.

The disorders, you know, are packaged as, they're packaged as like, you know, medical problems in the same kind of language.

And so half the time people think, okay, this is a biological problem here. And the other half of the time you have people talking about like it as it actually is, is that, you know, you witness a terrible event and then your brain gets sick, right?

Right, yeah. And so like, meaning you have some kind of glitch in the program, you have some kind of glitch in your thoughts.

And so, you know, you have to ask yourself, what realm are we in? Like, what are we even saying right now, right?

Like, are we in like a biological medical realm? Are we in this magical materialistic brain sickness, thought sickness kind of realm?

And like, when you think about how the categories actually work, these are the labels that are given once all the medical tests run empty.

And this is not some sort of organic problem. This is a different category of problem that is packaged in similar language as the other.

And then when you step back and you think about what's actually happening, you realize that this is like magical fairytale kind of nonsense, you know?

So like, just let me give you an example. So like imagine what you're being asked to believe in like treating this as if it's an illness.

What you're being asked to believe is that like, let's say you witness with your eyes a wreck, right?

So you watch a wreck happen. And what you're being asked to believe is the act of you viewing that wreck somehow like results in you having a broken leg or something.

Does that make sense? Makes complete total 100 % sense. Now I know you're laughing.

I actually had that happen to me the other day. You watched a traumatic event and then your leg snapped just instantaneously on its own.

I mean, it was wild. I've never seen that before. Yeah, so but that's what you're being, so like with traditional medicine, like you get hit by a baseball bat, your leg breaks, there's some like cause, right?

There's some physical cause that's going to result in this physical problem. And so what you're being asked to believe as it relates to this idea of mental illness is that somehow like if you see, like if you're treated poorly or you see terrible things, it's like somehow like you're, like all of a sudden you are left with some sort of organic problem as a result of that.

And it's just like, this is magic. This is a fairy tale. This is not logical. This is not reasonable.

This is not rational. This is not the way things actually work. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important that people understand.

You've said this already, but I want to restate it because I see people do this all the time where they try and, they try and take what you're saying and brush it completely aside by making some sort of, you know, by posing some sort of question that's really not a question where they basically say, oh, so you don't believe that, you know, there can be like damage to the brain or something along those lines.

Like, oh. But not by witnessing a dramatic event, I don't. Right, right. And what I don't think people really understand is that, you know, with these various sorts of disorders, as they're often referred to as, those are when all of the physical tests have shown nothing.

Is biologically wrong with them. Right, right. There's nothing wrong with them. There's no physical reason for them to be experiencing what they're experiencing.

There's no, you know, there's no gland dysfunction, there's no physical tissue damage, there's no decaying of the brain, nothing like that.

There's 0 % physical damage in these situations. And so, when you get these sort of, when you get into like the sort of depression, anxiety,

PTSD sort of realm, when you get into those areas, you have officially left the, or you've officially exhausted the potential for this to be some sort of, yeah, for it to be some sort of physical ailment with you.

You've completely left that behind. So, I think people need to understand that when we're having this conversation, we're past all that already.

No one is saying those things don't exist, because obviously the brain can get damaged.

I mean, you know, I'm a football fan, and even though we did the episode where we condemned all football fans,

I'm still processing that one, I guess. But - Unrepentant. Yeah. But, you know, one of the things that has been a really big controversy over the last decade or so in the sport is what, basically like the results of playing football for long extended periods of time.

And basically, you know, you end up getting various types of long -term brain damage done to you, right?

But the issue is with those things, they can scan the brain and see that there's a difference, and they can see that there is damage that is a sufficient explanation for the change in behavior, the change in mental capability, the change in physical capability as well.

And so obviously there can be damage to the brain. I mean, it's a physical object.

Organ, yeah. Yeah, and so obviously there can be damage to it. But then when we're getting into this conversation, when we're talking about really what you and I would describe and the

Bible would describe as moral categories, we have left all of that completely behind.

Well, that's the whole thing with, yeah, what people don't understand is that these DSM labels, they're just simple descriptions of thought, behaviors, and emotions that people might experience.

So that's all they are. They're descriptions of behavior. But then the problem is that they're packaged in medical language, and it makes people think that there's some kind of medical problem, some kind of biological problem undergirding this.

But this is just a simple description of behavior. So you can think about any of these, major depressive disorder or general anxiety disorder, whatever.

That sounds like a medical problem because they've worked the system to label it like that.

Because it's how you would name any other sort of... Disorder. Right, right. It's how you would describe it.

Yeah, so what they've done is, what's happening is you just have a clash of worldviews here. So psychology basically is a competing worldview with the

Bible, and people don't realize this, but this is how it started. Freud set out to essentially provide a

Darwinian materialistic explanation for human behavior that would be a competing explanation with the

Bible. So it used to be that people would go, and if they have a problem of thought, behavior, or emotions...

Emotion is kind of a recent word, but if they have a problem of thoughts, behavior, affections, feelings, they would go and talk to a pastor.

But then psychology packaged itself as an alternative to soul care in that way. And it was a materialistic alternative.

And so we have two different presuppositions here that are undergirding these various projects. And so from a biblical worldview, what you believe is that we have souls, right?

We're moral beings. We're created in the image of God. And all of our problems are not essentially material.

We're not materialist as Christians. We believe that we have heart, right? It's not just the organ that pumps blood.

We have an inner man. And our problems are fundamentally moral. We have sin problems. Our will is tied in bondage to sin.

So our starting point is I'm totally depraved, and I'm a moral being, and everything can't be reduced to the physical.

That's my starting point. That's the Bible's starting point. It's unashamedly the Bible's starting point. And so then the

Darwinian framework on the other side is their starting point is materialism. It's brute materialism, okay?

And so what that means is that everything has to be a material cause in their worldview.

That's the way it is, right? So you look at human beings with a materialistic worldview, and what you think is we're just complex machines, man.

That's all we are. We're complex machines. And so if we're complex machines and you see one human being curled up in a ball, after he witnessed a traumatic event, right?

Curled up in a ball and refuses to move on with his life. And another human being witnessed the same event and didn't behave that way, right?

So you look at a general population, 80 % of them don't curl up in a ball, 20 % do. Then you're looking at that 20 % and you're saying, well, there must be something structurally wrong with them.

Does that make sense? It has to be something structurally wrong with them because all they are is a computer.

So it must be a hardware problem here. Does that make sense? It must be a glitch. It must be a hardware problem.

We need to fix something, right? So the presupposition that undergirds it, it must be some sort of brain problem because we know that brain controls all that stuff, right?

So you're looking at that and you say it must be a brain problem. The problem is that none of our science can prove it's a brain problem.

We're just trusting by faith that it must be because we put on the materialistic lens.

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And so you see certain people are more prone to depression.

Well, it must be genetic, man, right? It can't be that they've been trained by their parents to be worry warts or depressed or have no joy in their life.

It must be a structural problem. And so what's happening is the whole field of mental illness, it's basically a competing field to traditional medicine.

It's another field that's essentially trying to observe people and answer the question, well, why do they do what they do, right?

So why are they acting the way they're acting? And so when you see any deviation from normal, right?

So you have normal and you have a deviation. One of those deviations could be like general anxiety disorder.

Another could be major depressive disorder. Another could be bipolar disorder. Another could be obsessive compulsive disorder. These are all deviations from normal.

Normal people don't act like that way. They don't act that way. And it must be a glitch. So it must be a material cause that's undergirding this.

That's the assumption that's required to do business. And so then you look at that and you say, it must be something wrong with them structurally.

Whereas the Bible would say we're moral, we're made in the image of God, our mind, our will, emotions, it's all affected by sin.

So I look at someone who is engaging in behaviors that the Bible says are wrong.

And I'm going to think they have a heart problem. The materialist is going to think they have a biology problem.

Now, it doesn't matter that they don't know what that biological problem is. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. But explain it a little bit for us. It doesn't matter if they know or not.

They trust by faith there must be one. So even if we haven't discovered what it is yet, they trust by faith.

It has to be some sort of structural problem we haven't come up with the answer to yet.

And then the only solutions that are going to fix it are going to be material solutions like drugs, right? Right.

So we may not know what it is yet, right? But we know that all we are is just a complicated machine.

And so whatever's happening there, you have a deviation from normal. They don't want to suffer from this thing, right?

You package it all in the language of illness. It's assumed to be a biological problem. And then when you say it over and over and over again, right?

You say it over and over and over and over again. They're suffering from depression. They're suffering from anxiety.

They're suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder. You say it over and over and over again, right?

They're suffering from mental illness. And then people, they've just been brainwashed to not even question what they're being asked to believe here, right?

Right. And so they're being asked to believe that fundamentally all we are is matter and complex machines, and that every problem is structural.

And so all of these things, so the Bible has nothing to say to any of these things. You can say all day long, the fruit of the

Spirit is love, joy, peace, long -suffering, gentleness, meekness, kindness, faithfulness, self -control. And it doesn't matter because it just goes in their ears and out the other ear and you say, hey, but they're sick.

They're sick, man. Right? Like they're sick, they have an illness. What part of mental illness do you not understand?

And then I look at them and I say, what part of mental illness do you not understand, right? Like this is the label that you give people when all the medical tests run up empty.

And like, you're being persuaded that this is somehow, like you're being led to believe that there's some kind of, there must be some material cause that no one knows what it is, right?

And then the chemical imbalance theory has been disproven. We don't all know what it is. It doesn't matter. You just trust by faith it's an illness, man.

And you're just trying to beat people over the head who are suffering from an illness, you hateful bigot, right?

And like they need to get the help that they need. And you're standing in the way of that. And it's like, well, wait a minute, right?

And so, I mean, like, you know, I guess I've always been the kind of person who has unpopular thoughts, right?

And I mean, growing up, I mean, you know, you've thought this, you know, you've thought like, looking at murder trials and you see like the defendant taking the insanity plea, right?

And like he was in his right mind killing the person and all of a sudden he's gone, you know, clinically insane right now.

And he's appealing to this category of mental illness. And you're looking at that and you had to have thought in your life at some point, man, that's a convenient excuse, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. That sounds pretty good, right? Like, I mean, I could be a normal functioning person my whole entire life.

No one ever identified it. But now all of a sudden I get declared, you know, clinically insane.

And then I get absolved from all moral responsibility for my action. This seems like a pretty good deal, right?

And so, but then that's like what you're being asked to believe is that a normal person who can go along their life in a normal way can all of a sudden be given this label that, you know, identifies them as sick.

And then that removes all moral accountability for their action despite the fact that nothing physically happened to them.

And so, like, that's what it's just a magic fairy tale. Like, that's what it is. Now, it might be helpful at this point to take a moment and and as clearly as we can define what we're talking about when we're talking about mental illness.

What exactly are we talking about? Because in my experience, I feel like I've seen

I feel like I've seen that word be used to cover a lot of different things.

So I feel like I've seen it be used to cover things like anxiety and depression.

Which it seems like we're probably more talking about those kinds of things. But then

I've also seen it used to cover things like mental retardation, for example.

And probably, you know, other things that are just actually like there is some sort of physical problem with their brain and their development or whatever.

So can you just sort of refine the definition for us so everyone knows what exactly it is we are talking about here?

Yeah, yeah. So the DSM DSM is basically the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

And what you're going to find is the DSM, basically all these labels. So the vast majority of these labels are mental illness, basically.

That's distinguished from physical illness. But then the problem though is that there's a few outliers in there like dementia and all that that are smuggled into there to make it sound more impressive than what it actually is.

But the vast majority of these labels are simply this category of mental illness as distinct from biological illness.

And so what you have is you can just take almost any label in the DSM and you're going to have an example of a mental illness.

And basically all these labels as you read through all these labels, the vast majority of them, you're going to see that like no medical tests are being done to perform these things.

And so just look up any instance in the DSM like General Anxiety Disorder.

Look that up and what you're going to find is that it rules out any medical organic cause.

So this is the label that they give people once all of the medical tests come up empty.

So there's no medical test that anyone has ever performed to determine a person has

General Anxiety Disorder or Major Depressive Disorder or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

They're not running medical tests to come up with these things. And so what these things are is they're just simple descriptions of behavior, right?

So you take something like General Anxiety Disorder. Take something like that. It's just a simple description of behavior.

Meaning, if you have a person who for a six month period of time, persistent six months, more days than not, they are filled with excessive anxiety and worry that affects their life in a statistically significant way.

Meaning, it's just like if they're characterized by life -dominating anxiety for more days than not for a six month period, there's some other checklists that you're going to look at that.

Yeah, like sleeping too much or not sleeping enough or eating too much, not eating enough.

Those kinds of things. Significant weight gain or weight loss. Psychomotor agitation.

All that kind of stuff. But none of that is medical, so it's just a simple description of a phenomenon that's being described in the language of disorder.

And so what mental illness is is just problems of thoughts and behavior and mood that people are suffering from.

And so you just put a label on it and all it is is a description. That's it.

So it's just a description. So, major depressive disorder. Two week period of time.

Unexplained sorrow and sadness. So it's just a description of a person who for two weeks feels unexplained sorrow and sadness.

It's affecting their life. Moving slower. And there's other symptoms of it.

These are categorizations of phenomenon. Nothing more. So when you're talking about mental illness, you're talking about simple categorizations in the main of behavior that have no medical tests that are being run to demonstrate them.

They're worded in the language of disorder but then the problem is that this is psychology's bible.

They're basically just giving us an alternative explanation for the phenomenon that we observe. So if you look at someone who is labeled as clinically depressed, you can look at what the bible says about that and you would describe them as a person characterized by despair.

Or morally sorrow. Guilt. Shame. Condemnation. But the problem is that none of those moral labels can stick once you have the scientific pseudo -scientific label that's put on it.

Yeah. It's basically serving as an excuse or like a cover for you. But then it's, you know, this is how psychology formed.

This is an alternative worldview here. And so what's actually happening is these are two competing views of the world.

Right? So do they have general anxiety disorder that sounds medical despite the fact that no medical tests are being run to show it or are they sinfully worried?

Right? Right. And so if you come along and say they're sinfully worried then the person who buys the materialistic label they're going to say you're a hateful bigot.

You hate these people and you're, you know, leading to their deaths and all that. Right? Yeah. But they're just two different categorizations.

One is a moral categorization. Right? That assumes that we're culpable. Human beings were responsible for how we respond to the world.

How we think. How we feel. You know, how we respond to the world. So one's a moral label. The other is a materialistic label that is packaged in the language of illness.

And so, you know, what worldview do you want? Do you want the Bible's worldview or do you want the materialist's worldview? And those two things can't meet.

Mix. And that's where, you know, you have all the, you know, the psychologists come along and say, hey, you know, I've accepted the materialistic worldview and I throw some

Bible verses in there. And so what's wrong with that? It's like we have two worldview. We have a worldview problem here.

Right? Yeah. It's a clash of worldview. One is a supernatural worldview. One is a materialistic worldview. And you can't fit these two things together.

Either they're suffering from an illness. Right? That's materialistic. That has some kind of material origin.

Or this is a spiritual problem. And what path you go down has dramatically different consequences.

And then we would, you know, we would say obviously that the, you know, the Christian worldview is the one to go with.

Not the materialistic worldview that is saying things like depression, anxiety.

Those types of things are their illness. Right? We would not agree with that at all.

Now, when it comes to you mentioned that there really isn't anything to back up what they're claiming.

Right? But it seems like a lot of people have basically just accepted at face value that there is.

So why do you say that there's not any sort of like scientific proof to prove that these issues are merely just an illness that is plaguing someone as opposed to an actual moral failure?

Yeah, but there's not because there's no medical tests. So you can approach it in different ways.

One of the ways you approach it is because if the Bible says that I trust by faith that the Bible is true and what God says is true.

And so, you know, I'm going to lean on his categories. And so there's a simple childlike faith you have in the Bible. So the

Bible says the fear of the spiritless, love, joy, peace, long -suffering, gentleness, kindness, faithfulness, self -control. And you see a person come along who has no love, joy, peace, long -suffering, gentleness, kindness, faithfulness, self -control.

Right? Because they have major depressive disorder. Then what you do is you just say, hey, I'm going to believe the Bible over and against the materialistic framework.

Okay? So, I mean, you don't have to know anything about the science just to say, I'm going to go with the

Bible here. You know? And now, if you know something about the origin of psychology and how it came about, then you realize that this was the goal of the project, okay?

Like this was a Darwinian project to try to give an alternative explanation for human behavior than the spiritual, moral, supernatural one that we're talking about, right?

So, like, these are two different teams and if you know anything about the history, you could say, hey, these two teams are doing the opposite thing and they're intentionally setting out to contradict the guys on your team.

Yeah, it was an atheistic thing. Yeah, yeah. That was the

Darwinian alternative to soul care. That's what it was. Alright, so then, you know, but even leaving all that aside, right?

So, leaving aside that God says it and that's good, you know, I believe that's good enough for me, just dealing with them on their own terms, you can go to a doctor and they're not going to run any medical test on you to determine you have major depressive disorder.

They're not going to run any medical test on you to determine you have general anxiety disorder. You can look at them and you say, hey, show me a medical test to show that there's something wrong with me.

And it's like, well, that's not how it works, right? Like, there's nothing wrong with you. There's no evidence of tissue damage or malfunction, right?

Well, then why are you giving me this label, right? So, like, the issue is, like, there is no test to determine any of these things, okay?

Yeah. So, there's no test to determine. Now, there's research that goes on behind the scenes to try to, like, see if they can, you know, compare the, you know, like, here is what a depressed person's brain looks like, and it shows, like, the scans.

Yeah, like, you know, how the neurons are firing and all that, and then this is a normal, healthy brain, so to speak.

But that doesn't prove anything, right? Like, that's not proving anything. All that's showing is that, yeah, you know, if you're weighed down by guilt, shame, and condemnation,

I'm sure that your brain is a fog. But, like, the issue is a chicken egg issue, right? Like, what's causing it is, like, you know,

David says when he held on to a sin, his body wasted away. So, you know, when we're holding on to guilt and shame and condemnation, doesn't it make our brain, you know, feel sluggish and, you know, slow -moving and, you know, like, those things happen.

Like, so you can look at brain activity scans, but that doesn't prove cause, right? That's not showing etiology.

That's not showing cause of any of this stuff. And so, like, the issue is, in none of these kinds of scenarios, is there any, like, objective science that undergirds it?

Or any medical tests that are being run to determine, you know, any of these things? And, yeah, for many years we all believed, you know, many people believed the chemical imbalance myth, but then that was shown to be just, you know, anti -scientific.

But right now, it's like, it's not a matter of me just saying there's no scientific evidence. There's just not, right?

Well, what's interesting is, you know, I was reading this article that you had sent me and there's two articles that I really do,

I want to link in the description for reason. And I want people to go and read both of them because they're basically from the two opposing

Christian positions here. One article is arguing that the

Bible and psychology are meant to intertwine and the other is arguing that the

Bible is sufficient and that psychology is basically a scam.

And there is this one really interesting quote from here that I wanted to read and the author was citing

Dr. Thomas Sazz, I guess it's S -Z -A -S -Z so however you say that.

But the quote says from Dr. Sazz, in plain language, what do patient and psychotherapist actually do?

They speak and listen to each other. So that's their summary and this is coming from a person who approves of psychology.

Dr. Sazz, they speak and listen to each other. What do they speak about? Narrowly put, the patient speaks about himself and the therapist speaks about the patient.

Each tries to move the other to see or do things in a certain way. So that sounds very different from, you know, like you compare that to like, alright

I think I've broken my leg, I'm gonna go to the doctor. You know, obviously there's like some patient -doctor interaction.

It's therapy, man. What part of therapy do you not understand?

Yeah, you're right. Foolish me. What was I thinking? Never mind. Strike the whole point.

You see the point though? Yeah, like if you compare that, like hey, okay, I'm going to a therapist and we're just gonna talk about what's going on versus like, hey,

I think I've broken my leg, I'm gonna go to a doctor. Now obviously that doctor is gonna ask me questions, he's gonna interact with me, you know, hey, how bad is the pain?

What do you think you did? But then all of those questions are leading to trying to find the evidence of the injury.

And provide a material solution to an organic problem, right?

The whole point is that what they've done is they're a parasite discipline and they package everything they're doing in medical language.

So they describe what they're doing, talking, as therapy, right? And so we treat it as if it's therapy but it's just like, that's not what a doctor does.

This is why I'm describing it as magic, right? It's like magic that we're talking about.

Like a doctor doesn't talk to your leg in order to heal your leg, right? Leave that to the face healers, man.

Right, that's why what we're being asked to believe is magic, right? We're being asked to believe that the therapist talking to you is going to magically fix the neuron firings in your brain and give the appropriate chemicals and all that.

It's like nonsense. This is not therapy. All of the words are lies. This is not therapy.

This is not illness, right? These are not drugs. I mean, these are not medicine, right?

So this is not medicine. This is not therapy. This is not illness, right? You're talking to people and you're giving them tranquilizers or happy pills.

So all the words are lies, right? But then when you tell them to people over and over and over again, they start to believe you and they just they've been brainwashed.

Everyone's been thoroughly brainwashed and they can't even see that this is obviously not the same as the other thing anymore.

Well, and I think part of why it's been so successful is because it is such an emotionally charged subject to begin with, right?

So not only do you have this whole, like, hey, we'll package these things in a way that makes them sound a lot more scientific than just, you know, one person talking to another person about their issues, but then on top of that, there are issues that are inherently very emotionally charged and so when you challenge them in any sort of way that puts the blame on the person who is feeling those emotions, then inevitably, you know, for anyone who loves their sin, they're going to get defensive about that, right?

And then simultaneously, when you provide an answer that takes all of that blame off of them for whatever reason, they're naturally going to go towards that.

I mean, like, any sinful person is naturally going to say give me whatever will make me feel like I'm not guilty.

It's the biggest, I mean, it's like the, if you talk about Satan's schemes and some of the most successful schemes that he's ever had, like psychology is probably by far and away one of the best things he ever did.

You know? It's one of his finest works. It's one of his finest works. You've got to give him props for it, man.

I mean, you really do. It's just like, man, that respect, right? I mean, I don't know that I have to say that, but okay.

You've got to give the devil his due, man. You've got to give the devil his due, man, on this one, because this was a good one.

This was a good plan. I mean, but think about it. I mean, his whole thing is did God say, right? Did God say?

Did God really say? I mean, he's the father of lies. He's the spirit that works in the sons of disobedience.

His goal is to get you to disobey God. And what he's done is he's provided you a materialistic, scientific, quasi -medical sounding explanation to basically violate everything the

Bible says. So every single behavioral problem you can imagine has a psychological label attached to it.

Every single behavioral problem that you can possibly think about, like the entirety of the human experience, it has a psychological label attached to it.

Right? Meaning, you get that label, you are suffering from organic illness in the minds of many people, and you have a medical excuse to not do what

God says. Kleptomania, what is that? Stealing. All the time.

Irresistible stealing. Nymphomaniac, man. Think about it.

So you have a disobedient child, you've got labels to put on that. Oppositional defiant disorder.

You have a label for every sin. You have a materialistic label. And that's what it is.

This is why at Psychology's Bible they've labeled every single behavioral problem with a medical sounding label that you can lean on.

So what is fits of anger in the Bible? Well, in therapeutic language, it's intermittent explosive disorder.

That's how absurd it is. You have no category for sin in this worldview. There's no category for sin in Psychology's worldview.

And so you have all these labels that are describing every kind of sin imaginable. The more people lean on these labels, the more that they absolve themselves of all moral accountability for everything.

Now what's happened is that with the behaviors, we still... The issue is most people with the behaviors in general are kind of like, you know, you can't, you know, you can't blame that sexual issue on that label kind of thing for the most part.

Right? For the most part. But then when it comes to problems of mood, there's just a wholesale abdication of all moral accountability whatsoever.

We totally lean on these labels. And so, we don't have a category for worldly sorrow in a psychological worldview.

We don't have a category for despair in a psychological label kind of framework.

So you have no category for ever rebuking someone for these moods, these feelings that they have, these emotions that are overpowering and unwelcome.

I mean, it doesn't matter if you never give thanks your whole life. You can blame it on your depression. Right? It doesn't matter if you're constantly worried every single day.

Right? If it's emotion, if it's an emotion, if it's a mood, we just lean on the psychological labels.

But there's labels for everything. OCD, bipolar, you know, PTSD, there's labels for everything.

Oppositional defiance disorder, there's labels. So I understand why the secular world would accept these things.

Because, you know, the Bible says they love the darkness, they hated the light. They're going to run to anything that removes their guilt, or that makes them feel like their guilt has been removed from them.

So I understand why they would accept something like this.

But it seems like the church as well has widely accepted this.

So what is the reason for the church integrating what seems to be two completely different competing worldviews and has tried to reconcile them together?

Well, we've just been brainwashed, man. We've been brainwashed by... You tell a lie over and over again.

So that was Joseph Goebbels' philosophy of propaganda. You tell the big lie over and over again, and pretty soon people won't believe it.

And what's happened is this is just the air we breathe. We live in a world that's dominated by all these languages and with all these labels.

And what's happened in the main is that it's just been a big deception.

So if you keep on using the language of disorder, you keep on using all the medical language... I mean, who's looked into obsessive -compulsive disorder, right?

No one's looked into obsessive -compulsive. Who's looked into post -traumatic stress disorder? Who's actually sat down on the internet, pulled up and said, what are the diagnostic criteria for PTSD?

What are the diagnostic criteria for OCD? What are the diagnostic criteria for oppositional defiant disorder?

So most people are not looking these things out. They just hear this medical -sounding label, and then we're taught to have blind faith in the medical community.

I mean, that's the same reason why they were able to do what they did during the pandemic, is because we just have this blind...

like, hey, we're Americans. We have the best medicine in the world kind of thing, right? I don't want to live in the tribe in the backwoods over there and don't have access to the medical care.

And so, isn't science wonderful? And it hasn't accomplished all these wonderful things. But then when you hear these medical - sounding labels over and over and over again, there's a lot of people who just haven't stopped to question, what are we saying here, right?

Now, it may be that, like, with the oppositional defiant disorder, we all chuckle a little bit, right?

My child is suffering from oppositional defiant disorder, but what happens with most red -blooded

Americans at that point is they're just kind of, oh, I think they're getting a little carried away here, right? Like here.

But, you know, with all the other ones, you accept them, right? And so part of it is just you've been brainwashed.

A lot of it is that we just haven't read the Bible, and we don't take sanctification very seriously, right? So, you know, people who try to obey the

Bible too much, they're legalists, and so part of it is that. Part of it is just we love our sin, and we, you know, we want to latch on to any excuse we can get.

Yeah, itching ears. Yeah, I mean, I counseled a guy, you know, who was suffering from ADD and depression and all that, and what that meant was he had a label that allowed him to spend all day long playing video games, right?

I've counseled many guys like this, but there's one guy in particular I'm thinking about, but you get to spend all day long playing video games.

It's like, well, yeah, alright. That seems like a pretty good deal, right? I mean, it's the same way with, like, you murder the person you claim to be clinically insane, right?

Well, now I don't have to get the death penalty, and maybe I get a lighter sentence. And so, I mean, there's a very real dynamic that if you can blame it on a label, then you get sympathy.

So not only do you get sympathy, but then you get, like, a pass that, you know, removes moral accountability in your life.

And right now, I mean, we live in a victim society where there's this great currency to be found in any kind of victim label that you can get.

So not only do you have to be cuddled and, you know, treated as a triumphant victim, you also get praise and pass and everything else.

And so, there's a lot of things that are working together. So, the church has pretty much, it seems like, pretty much totally accepted this, right?

Sure. I think that the older generation has, and you have a newer generation coming along that is starting to question some of these things.

And so, I think you have a lot of younger people that are starting to wake up. And they're all kind of going to nutrition now.

So, naturopath is their new psychology. But naturopath is just still a materialistic explanation for everything.

And so, you know, we made a joke last week or something about the red food dye stuff.

The kind of parent who thinks that every of their child's behavioral problem can be fixed with red food dye.

So, what you have is you have a lot of younger people who realize that, like, hey, these drugs, they didn't work with my parents.

And, you know, my mom was miserable and, you know, my mom was miserable and overweight and hooked on all these antidepressants and everyone outside, never exercised, you know, always in a bad mood.

And then I think they determined to not be like them, right? And they thought, well, why don't we try to eat healthier and get in shape and move more?

And then what they realized is they never suffered from the, you know, quote unquote suffered from the depression like them.

And so, then they think, well, like, the answer is all material the opposite way, like diet, exercise, workout.

So, I think you have a lot of younger people who are leaning that direction now because they saw how, like, you know,

Big Pharma basically made a generation of drug addicts, you know, across the board.

And I think with all the, you know, the COVID stuff, there's a, you know, all time low right now faith in the medical community.

But, I mean, this is a stronghold for so many people. Like, a lot of people haven't got the memo, you know, yet that this is bad.

And, you know, when you take away the chemical imbalance theory, they're still stuck on like, well, it must be something, right?

Like, it doesn't even deter them in the slightest that, like, they could literally be telling you that, you know, you're such an idiot because you didn't realize this is all about a chemical imbalance.

And then you can show them the article and it doesn't even faze them. It doesn't even register for them.

The whole argument they had has been debunked. They have nothing left, you know, and they're still, it's just blind faith that this is a material problem because they've been brainwashed for so long.

So, um, one of the issues, I mean, like I said, the church has been trying to reconcile these two things, right?

And I asked you why they were trying to reconcile it. Now I just want to ask you, like, what are they actually doing to try and reconcile two things that seem to be so diametrically opposed to each other?

How are they justifying this? Are you talking about like, yeah, integration kind of psychologists who are trying to take the

Bible and give a few little tips and then give the psychological worldview? What does that look like? Oh, what that looks like is you adopt the label.

You basically just accept the label. So the label itself is like to say, I guess, a quasi -materialistic label.

So, you know, like, that's what you do. Like, you're basically accepting that this is like an organic problem with the label.

But then, you know, you sprinkle a few Bible verses on there too, like that that are adding to you know, what you're saying.

You know, so yes, like, so it's just kind of like a, you know, one step and you have steps in both different worldviews.

But I mean, what always gives is the biblical worldview in that way. Right. So it's always the biblical worldview.

A lot of the guys who are doing this are just basically just sprinkling a few prosperity verses in there. That kind of stuff.

Yeah, it seems like a lot of self -love. Self -love, yeah. Self -love, trust God, you know, trust

God in the midst of it. He has a plan. So, I mean, you could say things like that. Hey, you know, He has a plan for you and all this and, you know,

He's good, you know, and He loves you in the midst of your suffering, you know, kind of stuff.

So you can use Bible verses like that. Like, you have the person who suffers from depression and it's, you know, it's viewed in the language of a biological illness, right?

And so you can give them like, Jesus was near to the broken -hearted you know, verse, right?

You know, God is here to comfort us in any affliction that we're facing, you know.

So you can do that. You're just, like, the problem is that you failed at the basic diagnosis.

Does that make sense? Yeah. And you're using verses in a way that does violence to their intention.

So those verses weren't meant to be like, cloaks for a vice, right? Yeah, you're basically twisting

Scripture at that point to mean what it wasn't meant to be, right? Jesus loves you,

He's near to the broken -hearted. Yeah, and somehow you're getting to this weird place where you know, now the

Bible is about, like, hey, if you want to overcome your, you know, like, whatever your issue is, then you need to realize that you need to love yourself, right?

And you need to, you know, God loves you, and so you need to love yourself because you're worth loving, and I had someone,

I had a teacher, a professor tell me that one time. You know, that the way you counsel people who are in distress is, number one, you teach them that they need to love themselves because God loves them, and if God loves them, then they're worth loving, right?

And you can't love other people until you love yourself first, and all of that is just, like, the total antithesis of what the

Bible actually says. The Bible says that the unrighteous will love themselves, right?

The righteous, they'll choose to love Christ instead and realize that they're sinful and that they need a

Savior, and they'll, you know, die to themselves, actually. They won't love themselves, they'll die to themselves, and so it just seems like to make this work, yes, it's what you said, you know, the

Bible always gives first for these people, and it really does.

I mean, I was literally in school being taught these things, and they're just literally anti -Bible, those teachings, which is really concerning that there's so many

Christians that just buy into it then. Yeah, so I mean, in the worst -case scenario, what you're doing is like moralistic, therapeutic deism, so then the

God of the Bible exists to build your self -esteem. So what happens in the worst -case scenarios with this, when you're trying to mix it, is you assume all the doctrines of psychology, like self -esteem and all that, even though,

I mean, psychology is not a monolith, but the self -esteem movement was a big thing, right?

So you assume those kind of things, and then you read those into the Bible, then you distort the Bible to fit that. So that's what's happening in the worst -case scenario, is you just have that happening.

But then, you know, in the best -case scenario, you're using, like, real verses, like, God is near to the broken -hearted, and you're applying it to a scenario in order to do something it wasn't designed to do, and that is, like, to comfort a sinner in their sin, right?

Like, that's not what it was designed to do. But that's not... You're not reading something into it that's not there in that case.

You're just applying it inappropriately. But then, I mean, obviously,

I think, by and large, psychology, what it's doing is removing personal accountability kind of game.

But, I mean, you do have guys like Jordan Peterson, who are pushing...

I mean, he's not doing that from a Christian perspective, you know? But, you know, who are encouraging moral accountability, but, like, the labels themselves, they suck away moral accountability, and the more that you're leaning on these labels, like, you're accepting the basic victim framework, and then you're trying to get people to not be, you know, totally limited by, like, the victim framework to make the best of, you know, their illness and their disability and take responsible steps, you know, to manage it and to cope with it.

Yeah, and I think, you know, going back to this, like, okay, best case scenario, what are they trying to do?

Well, they're taking verses that do mean something and they're just misapplying them. I do think there also is, and probably in this best case scenario category, there also is a place for...

I have seen Christians who believe in psychology and it being this, you know, helpful tool to use,

I guess, if you want to put it that way. The analytical tool. Yeah, the analytical tool. They'll even take verses that actually do apply to the situation, but then they give them...

It's almost because psychology has become so prevalent and it's become the primary answer to these moral issues that a lot of pastors have actually forgotten or possibly never even been taught to begin with, the actual answers to these issues.

And so you'll see people who come along and say, hey, you know, you need to pray, right?

Alright, you're depressed. Well, you're depressed, that's not like...

you're just suffering from depression, that's not your fault, blah, blah, blah, whatever, but God can still comfort you in the midst of this.

He can still help you with this. Obviously, you don't want to stay depressed, so what you need to do is number one, you need to go to a psychologist and do everything that they say and don't question any of it.

And then on top of that, you need to pray. You need to pray to God, right? That's great, because the

Bible does say part of the answer to anxiety, for example, is to pray and make your request known to God, right?

That's part of the answer. But then they just stop there. And so I think what probably happens is people do, you know, people take their advice and say, okay,

I'm going to go to the psychologist and then I'll pray in the meantime. Maybe they even say read your

Bible every once in a while if they're feeling really ambitious. Yeah, I think the extent of the

Bible stuff in general is that all they're doing is they're using the

Bible as a tool for self -esteem in the main, you know. To encourage you or to tell you you're wonderful or tell you

God cares about you and God loves you. And then maybe they're encouraging also Bible reading and prayer as a responsible step too, you know.

But then that's about it. They're basically secondary. Right, they're secondary.

But then what they're not doing is they're not treating the Bible as if the Bible has the answers to these fundamental problems.

And they're not starting out with the assumption that you're a sinner, you know, and that you're not, that these are sins, you know.

And so if you don't I mean, if you're not treating depression as a sin, committed by a sinner, then we're in different worlds here, man.

Whatever you're doing with the Bible at that point, we're just in different planets. Right, and that's what leads people, that's what leads these guys to the total, just like wrong answer to begin with.

Because the Bible doesn't say just pray and your anxiety will go away. And that's what they accused us of.

They accused us of saying, you know, you just pray the anxiety away, ha ha ha. It's like, no, you've got to deal with like the idols of your heart producing that anxiety.

And, you know, you have to figure out, what do I want in this scenario that I'm not getting? And like, what is leading to these things?

And what are the deep -seated desires that are within me? Sure, but then the answer though is we just have two different starting points.

So we have two different views of man, like the view of the integrationist is that man's basically okay, he's just suffering, right?

Suffering from the fall or whatever. And our view is that we're sinners, right? So if you don't have any joy in your life, you're dominated by worry, you don't have any peace, that's sin.

You know? So we have, it may be sin in response to suffering, sure, but like, these are sin issues that we're talking about, like with most of what we're talking about here.

Or, you know, just suffering kind of issues, but not suffering from a biological ailment, you know, suffering from life and learning how to suffer well and suffer in a way that honors the

God. So we just have different starting points and then we have different like diagnosis of what's actually happening.

So, you know, like your diagnosis is a quasi -medical language that paints you as a victim of your biology, right?

Our diagnosis is, hey, we're sinners and, you know, these are moral problems and we're going to treat them with moral solutions.

Well, and I think that's what's so frustrating about these types of conversations with people who disagree with our position is just the fact that they basically try to boil it down to like, hey, you know, oh, you think the answer is prayer or oh, you just think everyone who's depressed or has anxiety, they must just have a demon or something, right?

And it's like, well, hang on. Like, no. Well, that's the extent of their Christian experience.

These guys, they've never been in a good church their whole life. Most of them, they've never been in a good church their whole life that have taught about anything related to sanctification whatsoever.

Their extent of it is just like the popular charismatic stuff, right? And so then they hold up their strong man, which is just the deliverance ministry, charismatic false prophet kind of people and they paint themselves as the heroes of the story because they have their science right over I guess the mysticism of the charismatics.

It's like, yeah, maybe you should go to a good solid reformed church that teaches you to repent.

Teach you to repent, teach you about sanctification. Yeah, that will teach you how to live the Christian life, equip you to actually live.

And I would say that the vast majority of churches are just not teaching on sanctification. Nature abhors a vacuum.

If you have churches that won't touch sanctification with a 10 foot pole, then either the charismatics will cast out your demons or the psychologists will drug you to death.

So, okay, I guess just to close us out, how would you counsel someone who is dealing with they've become just overwhelmed with anxiety or depression or anger or whatever it is.

How would you counsel them? Yeah, I guess it just there's no one size fits all approach to any of that, but I mean the general principles are if you're talking about someone with intermittent explosive disorder, they have to take responsibility for their anger, right?

And the Bible has to be allowed to speak to that. So you're a sinner, right? You're a sinner and the

Bible says the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness that God requires. You have to hear that, right?

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and slander and clamor be put away from you along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ has forgiven you.

Curse be their anger because it's fierce, right? So the Bible describes anger as murder.

Like heart murder, right? So you think you're justified because you've never killed someone.

Well, if you're angry with your brother, you've committed murder essentially in your heart. You have to accept a spiritual diagnosis for this.

This is an anger problem. And if you're going to lean on a materialistic label, there's no hope for you with this.

You're done, right? So step one, this is sinful anger.

With something like that, you teach them the difference between righteous anger and sinful anger. Righteous anger is about God's priorities.

His kingdom come, His will be done. Your anger is about your kingdom come and your will be done in heaven as you want it to be done on earth.

Anger is I want what I want when I want it. We talked about James 4, where do wars and fights come from among you?

Do they not come from the desires for pleasure that are waging war on your members? So the issue is with anger, you have to accept responsibility for it.

Then we need to identify the desire that is producing the anger.

So where do the wars and fights come? Do they not come from desires for pleasure waging war on your members? So you desire and do not have.

So you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. So the issue is what's the desire?

What do you want here that's causing the anger? So you need to accept responsibility for the anger. You need to identify the want that's underneath it.

What do you want that you're not getting right now? You evaluate that want. Is it a good desire?

Is it a bad desire? The text says you do not have because you do not ask. So you should be praying for it if it's a good desire.

But then you ask and don't receive because you yourself essentially you want to spend it on your pleasures.

So you think about what's the desire that undergirds the anger? So take responsibility. What's the desire that undergirds it?

Is it good or bad? Evaluate it. Ask God for it. Learn to trust Him with it. So you're dealing with the heart desire that's underneath it.

Where's that coming from? What's the idol that's underneath that? The thing that if I don't get this,

I refuse to be happy. Then you need to learn about how the heart works and put off, put on kind of stuff.

The Bible says, let all bitterness and wrath and clamor be put away from you along with all malice. Then be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another.

So teach them about what forgiveness means. How to resolve conflict and then how to not only put away the anger but then put on kindness and gentleness and graciousness.

If your enemy hungers, you feed him. If he thirsts, give him a drink. In so doing, you're going to repulse the fire on his head.

So it's not just to put off the anger. You're putting on kindness and doing good to your enemies and praying for those who abuse you and use you.

I think there's a lot that I'm just trying to summarize. Five, ten counseling sessions in three minutes.

What I'm trying to say is that would be the approach of someone who says the Bible has the answer to intermittent explosive disorder and we're going to treat it like anger.

You need to treat it as if it's a sin. You need to repent of it. Ask forgiveness for it.

Take responsibility for it. Deal with the heart idol that's underneath it and then put off the bad behavior and emotions and feelings and put on the good.

So you need a comprehensive solution to these things. But that's just a short summary.

But you do that with everything. Whatever we're talking about. We're talking about depression. We're talking about anxiety.

We're talking about anger. You're talking about worry. You're talking about fear. You're talking about worldly sorrow.

You deal with it step at a time. I think that's a good place for us to wrap this episode up on.

Obviously, this is a sensitive topic for a lot of people, but we need to be people who number one, trust

God and trust His word and trust that it is sufficient and beneficial to us and that God's word is true and speaks to everything that we need to know as it pertains to this life.

It's actually a guide for us. It's actually a guide for our feet. I think this is no different.

It feels hard for a lot of people right now just because like you said, so many people have repeated the lie for so long that it really has, for a lot of people, obscured the truth for them when it comes to how to handle these issues and how to look at them rightly and how to approach them in a loving way with ourselves and with others.

I think we do need to speak with clarity on this. Like I said, I'm going to link two articles to the bottom of or in the description of this podcast wherever you're watching it.

What I want people to do is I want people to read these two articles. Whether you agree with our position or you don't agree with our position,

I want everyone to read these two articles because Tim and I, we read them both and I don't know about you

Tim, but I came away with some I came away with I had some takeaways from these two articles that I didn't expect to have by the end of it after reading both of them.

I'm going to post an article that basically argues for this sort of psychology mixed with you know integration counseling.

I'll link one article that is defending that and then I'm going to link another article that is arguing against it that is arguing for a more newthetic type of counseling or biblical counseling and I want you to read these two and really notice one of these articles is going to rely heavily on the

Bible and not only is going to rely heavily on the Bible but they're actually going to use the

Bible verses correctly and the other article is going to mention a few maybe like one or two maybe it's three, but not as many

Bible passages and the ones that they do use half the time they're not even going to be used correctly or they're going to leave out key information that would help you understand the broader context of what's being communicated, specifically

I mean some of the psalms where the authors of the psalms are communicating it seems like they're depressed basically they're psalms of lament, of sadness of mourning and what they leave out in the article is the fact that in all of those types of psalms what always happens is by the end of the psalm they remind themselves of the goodness of God or why they shouldn't feel sad but they leave that context out they only mention that the authors were sad and so I want you to read these two articles and just decide for yourself who does it seem like is relying more on the

Bible and what God has actually said and then ask yourself which side do you want to be on do you want to be on the side that is using the

Bible correctly and is using that as the primary foundation for their worldview or would you like to be on the side that seemingly is not doing that or is not prioritizing that at least

Yeah they I've read countless articles trying to plot some kind of middle ground way

I mean the Bible is rarely ever used if at all but then what's amazing is that they're not actually even defending their own position either and that's something that you can look at too when you try to compare the two kind of perspectives on this they're not even defending their own perspective it's just assumed that these things are medical with no evidence given whatsoever it's just taken for granted that oh these must be medical problems

The only evidence are emotional appeals Yeah it's just emotional appeals to like doesn't it feel more loving to give people medical excuses but that's all that generally is ever happening no one's ever treating the objections on the other side very seriously but then those who are making the case for the

Bible are dealing with the actual realities on the ground much more carefully. Yeah so like I said

I'll link those two articles and seriously read them and decide for yourself who do you think is relying on what

God has actually said so but with all that being said we want to thank you guys again for listening to us week in and week out for supporting us for interacting with us on social media through email we appreciate all that it's fun to hear how

God is using what we're doing to sanctify you guys and equip you guys and encourage you guys

I think one of the things that we want to do with this podcast is show people that it is okay to speak boldly about these things and there are people out there who are trying to do that and our goal or part of our goal is to not just be the sort of lightning rod for these kinds of things even though sometimes we are in our community but then to equip all of you out there listening to understand that you can say these things as well and give you the understanding and the sort of thought process behind everything so that you can communicate it to the people in your life as well so we encourage you guys to do that and until we see you guys again on the next episode thanks for watching