R. Scott Clark Interview (June 3, 2015)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry.

Introducing Dr. R. Scott Clark and the Nebraska Connection

My name is Mike Abendroth. And as you know, Wednesdays we have preachers, pastors, theologians, authors, and I love Wednesdays because you get to be introduced as a listening audience to other ministries.

And you think about how generous the Lord is, and He uses people, men and women, for gospel ministry and evangelism and all kinds of things. And so today on the phone with us, we have Dr. R. Scott Clark.

Dr. Clark, welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. Hi, Mike. Thank you very much for having me. Well, Dr. Clark, before we get into a lot of the details theologically, tell me a little bit about Nebraska.

Is there no place like Nebraska?

Nebraska is a wonderful place. You know, if you're from Oregon, the Pacific Northwest, you know, it might take a little.

I'm also from Nebraska, and I went to University of Nebraska at Lincoln as well. And I want you to know, Scott, that my brother, Pat, and I know you know Pat pretty well. Pat had Warren Buffett's, a key to Warren Buffett's house all the way through high school.

Did you know that?

No, I did not know that. But was he mowing the lawn or something or what?

Well, our mother knew Warren and had a key there to get in. And my mom also knew his wife and his girlfriend. Those were two different people at the time. And so anyway, Pat had keys, and sometimes I'd go over and run errands and stuff like that for Warren.

And so Warren has always been nice to our family.

I grew up, or at least spent several years in the Dundee neighborhood. So I know where...

With the Dundee Theater right down the street.

Dundee Theater, Dundee Elementary is where I learned to read and write.

The Need for Precise, Biblical Theology

Well, Dr. Clark, one of the reasons I have you on No Compromise Radio Ministry is because I'm trying to befriend you because I don't want to be on the receiving end of critique theologically because you are very precise and biblical.

And so I just want you to know there's a method to my madness here today.

No, I would never critique you. All right.

Well, if I needed it, I would accept it. Dr. Clark is a professor at Westminster Seminary, California in Escondido. And I have in front of me, Dr. Clark, maybe the favorite thing in my mind that you've done and that is Covenant Justification and Pastoral Ministry, subtitled Essays by the Faculty of Westminster Seminary, California.

You edited the book, but my favorite chapter is, in fact, the chapter you did on Do This and Live, Christ's Act of Obedience as the Ground of Justification. Tell us why that's... Well, first of all, tell us what it is and then why it's an important topic in evangelicalism today.

Well, the doctrine of the Imputation of Act of Obedience is the doctrine that says everything that Jesus did, he did not for himself, but for us. And everything he did for us, all his obedience, all of his life, is credited to all those who believe.

So that it is, as the Heidelberg Catechism says, it is as if we ourselves had done everything that Jesus did. So we don't make a distinction between Jesus' active and passive obedience. We don't say that what Jesus did leading up to the cross was for himself, but what he did on the cross is for us.

Rather, we say, as we say in Heidelberg 37, all of his life credited to us. And the benefit of this doctrine is that we are not partly righteous. It's not as if Jesus has wiped the slate clean, and now it's up to us to make sure that we keep what we were given, or to improve on it, or add to it, or whatever anybody wants to say.

We are utterly and completely justified, which is having, therefore, been just as Jesus Christ on the basis of the crediting, the reckoning, the imputing of everything he did to us, received for us. And that is the majority view among the Reformed, and arguably it is the view as well.

Justification, the Law, and God's Thrice-Holiness

Dr. Clark, when I read something like Jude 24, now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, would there be any other way to present sinners in front of the thrice holy God without the work of Christ that he did for us?

How could we stand before such a God?

Well, this is the problem, you know, that those who deny the imputation of active obedience have a tendency to change the standard. If the standard is, as you say, God's thrice holiness, if the standard is unbreakable, immutable law, 2726, cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything which is written in the book of the law.

And Paul understands that to teach that God's law is not a curve, right? God doesn't grade on a curve, not like he looks at the whole map and says, well, this is what's possible, and here we'll say, you know, you meet the test, even though it's not perfect.

The standard is perfect, you know, perfection, either Adam, you know, in the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die. It's not in the day in which you, you know, Adam, you do your best, and I'll credit you with perfection on the basis of your best efforts or your intent on the basis and therefore God and Son who became incarnate for us.

N.T. Wright and the False Divide Between Relationship and Law

Well, Dr. Clark, why do you think so many people, especially in light of this, and it's such an important doctrine, people love N .T. Wright and want to promote him, and even in your chapter you say N .T. Wright rejects the imputation of active obedience on the ground that it gives the impression of a legal transaction, a cold piece of business, almost a trick of thought performed by a God who is logical and correct, but hardly one we would want to worship.

I mean, I'm thinking I can stand in the presence of God, and the countenance that he has on his face, as it were, is one of pleasure, and of you're my son, or for the ladies, you're my daughter. I don't find anything cold about it at all.

What's your analysis of N .T. Wright at this point?

It's very common these days to set up a distinction, a false distinction, between relationship and law. And so the first thing we have to do is reject the premise. We need to criticize the premise and understand what's being assumed.

The assumption is either we have a relationship or we have a law. And I say to you, that's not how the world works. That's certainly not what Scripture assumes, and it's not how the world works. I have a very intimate relationship with my wife.

We have two children. We've been married for 33 years. Relationship is also codified in law. We have a legal relationship. It's not personal, any less intimate, if you just think about that assumption for a little bit.

Evangelical Niceness and the Pressure to Avoid Critique

Dr. Clark has a podcast called The Heidelcast, and I would encourage our listeners to listen to that. And, Dr. Clark, lately you've talked about of nice and men, playing off of mice and men, and how we have to be nice and make nice.

And you know what? See, you just weren't making nice there, because folks say if you even criticize anything, you're not nice. Give us your analysis of evangelical ethos of niceness.

Well, you and I both know quite a lot, I think, from personal experience about niceness, because we're from Nebraska, and of course, the state has an advertising campaign called Nebraska Nice, and those people are nice.

We are nice. We are raised to be nice people. We're raised to get along. We're raised to be kind. We're raised to treat people well, and the worst thing that can be said about someone where we're from is that so-and-so is not nice.

That's a damning criticism that could potentially ruin someone socially, or it's a serious issue. And my contention is that American Christianity, particularly American evangelicalism, is deeply influenced by this ethos of niceness.

Now, as I said in the first episode of the series of Nice and Men, I personally very much like, never met before, for 20 minutes, talk about families, pets, and all kinds of things. What do you put on your lawn?

Clark Pinnock, Open Theology, and Rationalism

You're listening to No Compromise Radio today with Dr. Scott Clark out at Westminster Seminary, Escondido. Dr. Clark, I was in the small room up here in Danvers, Mass., in, I believe, 1999 at an ETS conference when Clark Pinnock proposed his Open Theology view, at least initially.

And I know we can't get into people's minds and understand their motivations, but what kind of explanation do you have for a guy like that? I mean, I often think if someone says, well, I'm changing my theology about hell, it's because it's a relational issue.

I've got a loved one, and they don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, so I have to try to evacuate hell a certain way, or they prayed the prayer, but they're not following Christ, and now I'm, you know, I have a different view.

How should we watch out for things like that in our own lives so we don't fall off into this kind of grievous error? Because when I sat there and listened to Clark Pinnock, I thought, he's the smartest man in the room, but that's not the real issue.

Well, that's right. The question is not one of intelligence. The question is really one of faithfulness, of fidelity to the Word of God, and particularly the Word of God as it has been received by the churches.

And so, I think the, you know, I don't know why Pinnock did what he did. I have some theories, but I don't have a lot of facts. What I do know is that Pinnock operated on a theological method that ultimately placed the human intellect, if not above, known as rationalism.

And when Pinnock believed in predestination, he did so as a rationalist. But ultimately, his intellect is the boss. And so whatever Clark could or couldn't understand, ultimately, he got to decide what it is that Scripture could or could not teach.

And he wasn't particularly bound by the teaching of Scripture as it's been received by the church. He adopted a method, a theological method, that was essentially identical to that of an earlier group of people called the Sosinians.

And the Sosinians said, if it doesn't make sense to me, I'm not obligated to believe it. Atonement they did away with the two doctrines of the Trinity. I love Jesus, you love Jesus, incarnate, true God and true man.

Catechism, Heidelcast, and Closing Thoughts

Dr. Clark, I feel like I'm just listening to a heidel cast, and so for a moment there, I wasn't thinking about the next question I should ask you. I was thinking about the Depeche Mode, my own personal Jesus song, but I don't know if they played that back in Nebraska.

I was a punk rock disc jockey at KZUM in Lincoln, Nebraska for a short time. So now I guess I'm back on radio promoting a different agenda. I remember that station.

A friend of mine and I, we were supposed to do a show on Saturday.

Yeah, that's exactly right, in the house, and you know, in one of the bedrooms was the station, excuse me, was the, you know, a couple turntables and you would play the song. So yeah, I remember that.

Well, we've only got a couple minutes left. What's your favorite thing to teach new students when they come to the seminary?

Heidelberg. Catechism, without question. I'm just an old catechism teacher, that's all I am.

Now we only have, you know, like two minutes, but when I said to Pat, my brother, I'm going to talk to Dr. Clark just here momentarily, what should I ask him, and he said, ask him about intinction.

Well, I guess the listener isn't familiar, intinction is a growing practice.

Well, Dr. Clark, thank you today for being on No Compromise Radio. I want to have our listeners be able to go to heidelblog .net and they can read what you write. We've got the Heidelcast, they can do that as well.

And you're also very active in the Twitter universe, at rscottclark for twittering. I thank you so much for being on No Compromise Radio, for your ministry, and there is no place like Nebraska. Go Big Red.

Thank you, Mike. No Compromise Radio, with Pastor Mike Abendroth, is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church, firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's Word, through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 10 .15 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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