March 10, 2025 Show with Jeremiah Nortier on “The Great Value of Apologetics & Public, Moderated Theological Debates”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 10th day of March 2025.

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I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest today, you know, and I'm so stupid,

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I forgot to make sure I was pronouncing his name correctly before we went on the air, but I believe it's

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Jeremy Nortier. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. He'll let me know in a second.

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He is the host of the Apologetic Dog podcast. He is a debater, and he is pastor, or one of the pastors, at Twelve Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

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Today, we're going to be addressing the theme, The Great Value of Apologetics and Public Moderated Theological Debates, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jeremiah Nortier.

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Chris, thank you so much for having me on. Am I pronouncing the name correctly? You said

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Jeremy. I'm going to give you a pass. Here I am worried about your last name, and I mispronounced your first name.

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That's okay. Dr. James Watt gives me a hard time because my last name in the

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South, we pronounce it Nortier, but it is French, so technically it's supposed to be

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Nortier. Like I said, he gives me a hard time for that. The Americans have long mispronounced

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French names. Nobody in France is going to call their church

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Notre Dame, so we could go on and on and on with that, so forgive me for getting your first name wrong because I knew your first name, and I don't know why

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I said Jeremy. Well, tell us about your podcast and the name, which is fascinating.

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Not only the name of your podcast is fascinating, but the name of your church is fascinating, but tell us about Apologetic Dog.

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Yes. Well, I started the apologetics ministry about three years ago, and I started doing online debates and did one in -person debate in my hometown against a church of Christ over baptism, and I started to get a lot of feedback and consulting with the elders at my church.

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We kind of said, hey, we need to make a ministry with a name, with a logo, just so people can better come check out your stuff, and you can archive sermons, lectures, discussions, interviews, all that, and so Pastor Nathan Hargrave said, hey, go think about a name, and so I remember talking with my wife, and we were bouncing around ideas, and I liked

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Doctrines of Grace, so D -O -G, so that kind of got the idea rolling of dog, and then

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I remember my wife said, hey, what about the Apologetic Dog? And I was like, babe, that's excellent.

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So I didn't want it to be purely the Doctrines of Grace, the Five Points of Calvinism and Soteriology, even though that's super important.

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I wanted it to be a little bit broader, and so if people look me up at theapologeticdog .com or my

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YouTube channel, you'll see 1 Timothy 6 .20 kind of embedded in the logo, and that's kind of my mission verse, where Paul tells

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Timothy, oh, Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you, and so I thought, okay,

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I want it to be a guard dog mentality, Christians guarding the Gospel of Grace, contending for the faith, so apologetics is both offense and defense, and Chris, I play a little basketball, so I know a little bit of thing about offense and defense.

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So that's about three years ago, the Apologetic Dog took off, and so we tried to find a dog that could fit the beard, the

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Reformed beard, and so we landed on kind of that pit bull graphic, and so one thing led to another, and we were able to hire a graphic designer, and so that became the

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Apologetics Ministry, contending for the Gospel of Grace, and we do so by avoiding pagan philosophy, irreverent babble, and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.

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So if you go look at 1 Timothy 6 .20, that's the rest of that verse, and so a lot of my days,

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I spend reading and researching, studying in the apologetic world, but I also pastor at 12 .5

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Church, and I've even had people, Chris, ask me, what's a 12 .5? Does that mean the five points of Calvinism, 12 months of the year?

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And I said, well, kind of, but no. That also comes from a Bible verse, Romans 12 .5,

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that talks about how we are individually one of another, but ultimately we are one together in Christ, and so we are, oh goodness, a four -year church plant, almost four and a half years in Jonesboro, Arkansas, northeast

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Arkansas, and Chris, it has been an absolute honor to serve with Pastor Nathan, Pastor Keith, the members of 12 .5,

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those that God has so graciously brought, we are having a fantastic journey with one another.

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And the website for 12 .5 Church is the word125church .com.

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Excellent, absolutely. That's the word 12, the numeral 5, and then the word church .com.

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I was wondering if the name of the church came from 12

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Apostles, Five Loaves of Bread. Oh, that's good. That would be leaving out the two fish, so it would have been more appropriately named 1252

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Church, if that was the case. In fact, I'm insisting you change the name, because I like my story better.

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I'll throw it in the pot with the other elders, and we'll see what comes out the other end. And I also have an idea for a slogan for the apologetic dog, debate me and become a fire hydrant.

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Oh, no. I love it. We're going to have to get some more graphics with the fire hydrant. Well, anyway, we have a tradition on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, including the religious atmosphere, if any, that the individual was raised in, and the kinds of providential circumstances that the

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Lord rose up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them.

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And I'd love to hear a summary of your story. Absolutely, Chris. Well, I grew up in an evangelical household,

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Southern Baptist. So I grew up hearing that Jesus is

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Lord, the gospel of grace my whole life. And so thinking as far back as I can, those things were kind of never in question in my mind.

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But I remember I was 14 years old, and I saw a friend get baptized, and something struck me in his baptism where something was real about his faith.

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I was merely a fan of Christ, but not a follower. And so that led to a conversation with one of the pastors about baptism and how it relates to salvation.

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And so I was 14, and my father called the senior pastor of this church to our house, and he shared the gospel.

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And I knew this information, but for the first time, it struck my heart. I remember being convicted over my sin, just in tears,

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Chris. And the sweet name of Jesus was the only thing that I could think about and how

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I loved him. And I truly wanted to submit my life to him and surrender it all and follow him for the first time.

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And so I was 14 years old where I was born again. God saved me by a sovereign grace, and the light switch came on.

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And so I was 14. I was about junior high. I still struggled with many idols in my life.

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And I remember little to no sanctification until I was about 21. I was in college.

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Some of those idols were sports, dating. And I went through a hard experience in college.

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I had my heart broken. And so I remember crying out to the Lord like, hey, use me.

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I've been living my life for myself, even though I do love Christ and I'm trusting in him wholeheartedly.

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But I could tell I wasn't being used. So 21 is where I really feel like God providentially was setting the stage to really sanctify me and set me apart, even though I was a child of God by faith alone and Christ alone.

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But 21 hit. And so I was a counselor at Canico Camps in Missouri.

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And so it was during this time I really got to spend time alone in the word.

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And I remember calling my dad, studying the gospel of John and just saying, hey, how do I know what verses apply to me?

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And he said this kind of remarkable thing to me back then when I was 21. He just said, hey, we study for principles. And I was like,

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OK, that helps me a little bit here. I'm on the quest for principles. And so I fell in love with the gospel of John.

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I actually memorized the whole book of James, all 108 verses. And I didn't know what faith without works is dead, what that means theologically.

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But I knew I needed the word of God written on my heart to have a true relationship with him. And so over the next few years in college,

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I felt the call to ministry. And so that's why I wanted to share this story is through college,

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I was that student in business calculus in the back studying the Sermon on the Mount rather than everything else that was going on.

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And so a few years later, I met my beautiful bride, Allie Mortier, told her that I felt the call to ministry.

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And she has been my biggest supporter ever since. And so I got my first job as a youth pastor.

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I think how old how old I was. I was probably 23, 24 in that time range.

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And so I learned a lot of the hardships in ministry right out of the gate for the next two years.

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And so God called me to another church once again, felt a lot of the hardships in the Southern Baptist world, definitely becoming reformed and seeing the sovereignty of God put on display in my life.

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And so from that church led to me partnering with Pastor Nathan Hargrave and planting 12 .5

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Church. Chris, in the year of 2020 during the COVID is when we plant.

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Cool. Well, praise God for that. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address.

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If they have questions, chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence. If you live outside the

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USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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So our theme of the day is the great value of apologetics and the importance and great value of public moderated theological debates.

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There is some debate over the importance of debates.

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I have had people who have been very nasty to me for having debates.

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They think it involves innately some kind of hate speech and nastiness.

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I can even remember here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, arranging a theological debate on the immaculate conception and perpetual sinlessness of Mary.

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Between my dear friend, Dr. Tony Costa, who is an apologist and at one time the professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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He's moved on to a different school right now. By the way,

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Chris, I had Tony on my channel a few weeks ago. We discussed baptismal regeneration in the early church fathers.

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Oh, wow. I got to listen to that. He's a dear friend, but he was debating another friend of mine who

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I do not consider a brother in Christ. But he's a friend nonetheless, Robert St. Genes, who's a Roman Catholic apologist.

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And I contacted the head of the religion department at Dickinson College, which is a prestigious school right here in my hometown,

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Named after one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, John Dickinson, who was a

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Quaker. And the head of the religion department said that he would have nothing to do with this debate.

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I told him that it would be a great thing to invite his students to. And he said, there is no way that I would invite my students to such a horrible, hateful thing that harkens back to the days when we were burning each other alive at the stake over our differences.

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And I said, how can you even remotely get that explanation or description of debates when you have two people being represented in the debates?

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It's not one sided. And I always assure that the debates that I orchestrate are academic.

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Of course, they do get heated at points, not all of them, but some of them do, especially if you're involving

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Robert St. Genes. But there is no fomenting of hate in these events.

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So I was very dismayed by this man's response, especially since colleges and universities were built on debates.

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That's where the term collegiate debate comes from. So a tragedy that that is a growing sentiment, especially among those who are leftists.

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They don't really want debates. They just want to give their side of the story and condemn the other side, which is more reflective of the slanderous description this man gave.

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But before I even have you comment on that, why don't you explain what apologetics is, because there's some confusion about that.

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I remember just recently hearing a celebrity who had become a born again believer say,

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I don't like that term apologetics. It sounds like you're apologizing for something you believe, but that's not at all.

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Why don't you tell us about that and then respond to what I said about debates, about the stereotype that they are nothing but contests and hate speech?

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Yes, I get a lot of those same questions as well. And it's a good opportunity to explain biblically what we mean by debating.

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I would say that is something within the biblical worldview and not like what Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton and presidential debates have unfortunately turned into as just hurling insults to one another.

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But starting with apologetics, this is a biblical term. And so kind of the number one apologetics verse goes back to 1

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Peter 3, 15, where Peter says, And so this is not for professional

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Christian theologians. All Christians are supposed to live their life in such a way where people see that, see how you're living to the glory of God and ask you, hey, why are you doing that?

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Our lives should naturally give us opportunities to be able to share the faith. And when people have questions of why, we give them a reason.

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We tell them about our gracious Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and how he saved us out of the depravity of our sin and forgave us in total and full, giving us forgiveness of sins.

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And now we have a personal relationship with our creator God by faith alone in his name.

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And so, yeah, to give a defense for the faith, that is kind of the defensive aspect of apologetics.

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But as Jude verse 3 says that we also must contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

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And so what that means is we ask people that oppose Christianity questions.

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But as Peter said, we do it with gentleness and respect. And so we're not mean about it,

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Chris. We love others enough to share with them the truth. And as Peter also said, we are sanctifying the

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Lord in our hearts. And so we're constantly having Christ at the forefront of our minds, and we want to honor him with our speech.

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Paul also says, I believe in Ephesians 4 .15, that we speak the truth in love.

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And so another passage that is for all Christians, not just debaters that are professionals or, you know, these highfalutin theologians.

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Paul tells Timothy in 2 Timothy 2 verse 24, And the

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Lord's servant, Christians, must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone.

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So there is a kind of interaction with people that is quarrelsome and does not benefit the hearers.

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That is a vain arguing for arguing's sake. Earlier in that context, we are actually told to do our best to present ourselves to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

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And so quarreling is bad when it's vain, when it's pointed inward, when it's just trying to win arguments for the sake of being right, versus being kind to everyone to vindicate the truth of God.

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And here's what this passage goes on to say, And so apologetics touches on all those things, but it's being a faithful steward of God, to love people enough to share within the gospel, to defend it, because we should be willing to die for our faith in Christ.

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And something that I've heard Dr. White say many times on The Dividing Line is Christianity is a death march.

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And I love that imagery because anything that this world has to offer is one day going to be burned up.

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And so we should be willing to die for these truths. Death is but merely a door that ushers us into everlasting glory with our

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Savior. So apologetics is a good thing. We're not just walking around apologizing like we're sad all the time.

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No, we're actually playing offense and defense, and we're actually contending for the faith.

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And so this isn't something new and innovative. You know, you kind of said it's a leftist culture that kind of, you know, casts debating in a negative light.

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And the last debate that I participated in, Pastor Nathan kind of opened with a welcome, and he reminded everybody we live in a feminized culture.

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And so as the book of Ephesians says, we are actually redeeming the time. We want to live for the glory of God.

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And truth is grounded in the God of truth, the triune God who has spoken and revealed himself.

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So we don't have to apologize in a sad sense to everyone. No, but we can contend for these truths, and we can give a robust, sound defense because ultimately our apologetics is rooted in the

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God of truth who has spoken. Jesus said, Father, sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth.

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So when people tell me, Chris, yeah, debating is kind of archaic, it's out of date, it only divides the hearers.

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I'm quick to tell people, look, the truth does divide. Yes, I could say truth does divide, but it unites those who are being saved by God's grace.

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Something else I'd point to, Chris, is when you look in the book of Acts, debating is biblical.

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Yep, Apollos, right, even going back to Mars Hill, and we push it back to the

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Jerusalem Council. You have the Judaizers essentially corrupting the gospel of grace.

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And then verse 2 says, Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension, but debated with the

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Judaizers that were implementing the Mosaic law and works to the gospel of grace.

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And so they debated. And as you were saying, you know, in Acts 17, we see Paul is even contending for the gospel of grace with Jews in the synagogues.

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And he's doing that by appealing to the word of God and then ultimately saying, hey, even the noble Bereans tested all these things according to the word of God day and night and to see that these things were true.

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So do you want to chime in there? I was just going to say Acts 18, 28 says that Apollos boldly and publicly confronted the

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Jews, vigorously debating them. Proving undeniably from the scriptures that Jesus was the

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Messiah. And that's exactly the pattern that our Lord set also.

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No doubt John the Baptist and the prophets of old. And so I just I try to tell people I probably agree with you.

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There is a kind of debating that I'm not interested in. I'm not interested in trying to just hear myself talk and arguing for the sake of arguing.

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But there's a biblical kind of debating where we are defending the gospel, gospel of grace, guarding it with our whole hearts, sanctifying

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Jesus as Lord in our hearts and proclaiming truth. And so that's the kind of debating I'm into.

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Yeah, and I don't think that anybody could in their right minds accuse you personally of hateful debating because you have one of the most outwardly gracious and humble approaches to debate that I've ever seen.

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I mean, you're just, in general, a very humble and gracious and kind person from what

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I've seen in public anyway, in your video presentations.

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So they would be slandering. Well, it's just true. I mean, anybody who sees you will get that impression.

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And so, yeah. What about the argument? I have a very dear friend who's now in heaven,

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Richard Bennett. I don't know if you had ever heard of Richard Bennett, but he was a well -known convert from Roman Catholicism to Reformed Christianity.

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He actually was a Roman Catholic priest, a Jesuit priest from Ireland who was sent to Trinidad where he was a

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Roman Catholic priest. And he was in a serious automobile accident, and the experience led him to cry out to the

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Lord. He got saved and eventually became a Reformed Baptist evangelist and apologist and started

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Berean Beacon Ministries. And he was a dear friend of mine. I interviewed him a number of times, set up speaking engagements for him, and we were very close.

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He even supported my radio program financially, even though he was not by any stretch of the imagination a wealthy man and a dear friend who

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I miss dearly. But Richard Bennett did not believe in debates because he believed you were giving a platform to an enemy of the gospel to draw an audience.

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And, you know, they would therefore hear the false gospel of the heretic that was involved.

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Now, obviously, there are some debates that are in -house between brothers in Christ.

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I don't know if Richard would have been opposed to those. I don't think so. But he was definitely opposed to my debates with Catholics because he was a

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Catholic himself before converting, by God's mercy. He just had such a disdain for the

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Roman Catholic religion, not the people, but the Roman Catholic religion, that he just thought it was a very bad thing.

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So if you could, defend debates in that context where that is an argument against them that you're giving a platform to an enemy of the gospel.

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I first tell people my Savior sits on a throne and I ain't scared. And I mean that.

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I mean to say that I'm not scared about people being duped and me losing some type of grasp on people that I'm close to and all that.

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Now, obviously, I'm a pastor. I want to be discerning. I want to guard the flock. And I definitely do those things, you know, day in and day out with the saints, especially on the

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Lord's day. But like we were just talking about in Acts, there is a context for Paul going into Mars Hill and heralding the gospel of grace.

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And so I am not—like when I talk to young men that hear Roman Catholic arguments appealing to the unity of the early church fathers, the fact that they are now challenged with a hard -to -deal concept does not rattle me because I know he who begins a good work is going to be faithful to complete it at the day of Christ's return.

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And so I can boldly—not because I'm so great, but because my Savior is so great—is go into the lion's den, these other places, or have, you know, essentially some of these false teachers.

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They're going to show their fangs, by the way. But our labor is never in vain.

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So I don't share this mentality that I am somehow scared, right, that so many people are going to be shook.

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To me, this is going to be a good time of testing for them and their faith. Not that God needs to know if their faith is real and genuine, but the individuals.

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They need to be challenged with arguments from Scripture, from history, to see if their faith is genuine or if it's going to reveal something deeper that's on the inside.

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Now, here's where I empathize a little bit, Chris, with somebody like your dear friend that passed away.

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I don't have that experience of coming out of a false religion, and so I think it's going to trigger some things in their life that they maybe don't like to be reminded of.

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And I'm very sympathetic with that. Maybe by God's grace, you know, I grew up in an evangelical home, so I don't share some of these triggers maybe that other brothers in the

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Lord have. And I will say this, I think you'll agree with me here. I don't think debating is for everyone.

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And I tell people, if it's not for you, don't watch it. It's definitely not for everyone as a participant, because there are people who participate in debates that definitely should never be doing that.

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Yes. And so when people say, well, then why are you doing it, Jeremy? I'm like, well, depending on the topic, it can be evangelistic the way that we see it in the book of Acts.

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We see Paul saying, speak the truth in love. And so I have debated with a number of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

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That's a platform for me to challenge them on the consistency between the relationship between faith and works.

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Guess what? They're not going to be consistent within that. I debate Church of Christ. They're going to use the word obey as a catch -all word, and they can get away with anything.

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But until we open up to Romans 4, asking questions like, who is the blessed man? So it's evangelistic, and it's educational for the hearers, those that have ears to hear.

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So does that make sense, Chris? I get that debating is not for everyone, but it is a huge opportunity to herald the gospel of grace.

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Amen. Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. If you have a question of your own, once again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Don't go away. We're going to be hearing some words from our sponsors, including the very first one, which is a very new sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

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Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island. Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the Word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

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That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

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today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron radio. But we're now back with Pastor Jeremiah Nortier.

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He is known as the Apologetic Dog, and he is also one of the pastors of 12 .5

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Church, a confessional reform Baptist church in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

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If you have questions about apologetics and debates, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

40:52

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

40:57

Please tell me and our listeners how you first were introduced to the concept of public theological debates.

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I personally was, in the 1980s, watching the John Ankerberg Show, but where did you discover this?

41:17

So definitely through YouTube back in the early days, and 100 % watching

41:24

James White, Dr. White, and William Lane Craig. Those were kind of my two role models, if you will.

41:31

Just seeing Christians not afraid to debate atheists about the existence of God, that was what drew me in, is that there's intellectual arguments, good points to be made about the

41:44

God that we know and love. And then over time, seeing that there's different kinds of methodologies and different kinds of apologetics for doing so.

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So yeah, I've told people kind of three big influences in my life in the faith have been

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John MacArthur, who kind of taught me a love for the word, R .C. Sproul showing me a love for church history, and then

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James White was the best of both worlds, and he put it into action in debate.

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Now, how do you respond to the oft -repeated negative response to debates that I hear?

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As I told you before the program started, I've been involved in arranging many debates.

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James White alone, I think that I've arranged 25 or so debates with him, and others as well, including

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Dr. Tony Costa and those who oppose evangelical Christianity, and also

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I've arranged in -house debates as well between brothers in Christ to disagree over certain issues like baptism and other things.

42:56

But one of the things that I have heard repeated to me, even from people who dismiss what

43:04

I'm doing, they're not even going to make any effort to be at a debate that I'm inviting them to because, oh, nobody ever changes their mind.

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People are just set in their ways, either the debaters or the people in the audience.

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They have the side that they're rooting for, and they leave just stubborn to hear anything that the opposing side had to say, and they walk out of those debates the same way they walked in.

43:41

First of all, you'd have to be omniscient to know that. I know personally people who have radically changed and even come to salvation through debates.

43:54

I have to admit that I am not aware of a debater having that experience during a debate.

44:04

But perhaps you could respond to that often -repeated negative attitude.

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Yeah, it is a negative attitude, and I firstly tell them I can't convince anyone of anything, and they usually are like that because that's their misconception is that I, in and of myself, with my own arguments, can do

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Jack Diddley's squat. But I'll point them back to that passage that we read earlier from 2

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Timothy, that it's the Lord's servant who must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone, able to teach patiently, enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness, and here's the key, that God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth.

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And so I try to encourage them, look, God is sovereign. He not only has ordained the ends, but he's ordained the means.

44:52

And so I pray that I would be a faithful, obedient vessel that God one day will use me to give the increase.

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So it's not me who sows or someone else who comes and waters. God ultimately is in the business of changing hearts and changing minds.

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And so this is also very helpful in debate. A lot of times I'm speaking to the heart of the audience.

45:15

And so, yes, I'm responding to direct arguments from my interlocutor, but I have a vast audience in mind, and I want to speak to the heart.

45:24

And so I've had the opportunity to do online debates. Well, praise God, these debates can be watched multiple times over the years.

45:33

And this is something else, Chris, that I try to really pray about before debates and encourage other young men is you have to do this in love.

45:42

So even false teachers who have sharp teeth and it is a serious matter, their hearts are darkened to these things.

45:51

So you have to meet them with love and grace. We stand firm, but what you're saying must be consistent with how you are saying it, if that makes sense.

46:01

And so when I, you know, when people say, rarely do people change their mind. Well, how do you know? How do you know who this is going to reach?

46:09

Now, maybe by God's grace, I'll see some of the fruit of that labor. But even if I don't,

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I trust God's word that he says your labor for the Lord is never in vain.

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So at that point, they have to continue with God's word and understanding that when

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God's word goes out, Isaiah chapter 55, it never returns empty. Okay, we have a listener,

46:34

Kyle, from East Haddam or Haddam, Connecticut.

46:40

And Kyle says, you mentioned earlier that debates are not necessarily involving hate.

46:50

But you cannot help but notice that many debates, if not most, conjure up hateful feelings in people who spew all kinds of horrible things and lies after a debate has taken place in that wonderful land we call the

47:07

Internet. Well, I think that that wouldn't even be unique to a debate, because even if you make a public sermon or something or a book that...

47:20

Kyle, don't go on Twitter. Right, right. But anyway, if you want to respond to that, that's a very good, you know, because it does definitely happen.

47:30

Yeah, well, I appreciate where Kyle's coming from. It sounds like he was wanting to have a unifying spirit amongst people, and we should avoid doing things that are divisive.

47:42

And I would say truth inherently is both divisive and unites.

47:48

And so when Jesus said, I came not to bring peace on earth, but a sword, his point was the gospel is going to divide.

47:56

And so our very existence as Christians, we are pilgrims. We are merely sojourners.

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Our life is going to, even though our heart is to be salt and light, we are going to be, we are going to be stench in those that oppose the gospel.

48:13

So they're going to find a lot of things to hate us for because they first hated our

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Lord. And so, Kyle, I want to echo what I think you're getting at is when we are living our life, our speech must be seasoned with love and grace.

48:30

And we simply have to trust God with that increase. Amen. And the purpose of a debate, if you're doing it with the right frame of mind, even if there was never a convert to truth that came about by God's grace through a debate,

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God is still glorified when his truth is declared and defended and error is exposed and refuted, is he not?

49:07

Amen. And something else, Chris, I think you'll appreciate is I never want to do apologetics divorced from the local church context.

49:17

It's something Dr. White mentioned years ago and always stuck with me. So I have the accountability of my church family that they have unfettered access to tell me, hey, you said this, what did you mean?

49:30

Or, you know, I have the prayers of the saints interceding before debates because it's so easy to get in your flesh and to bring reproach on the very things that you're wanting to defend.

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And so you got to do this holistically with the body. And so we got to have checks and balances.

49:48

No man is perfect, but we know the one who is perfect, and we just have to seek to desire to point people to Christ.

49:55

Amen. We have Red from Fort Walton Beach, Florida, who said, what was the most fascinating and well -executed debate that you've ever seen?

50:14

Oh, my goodness. Well, that is a fantastic question because now it's almost like asking which one of your kids are your favorite because, you know,

50:22

I love all the debates I've participated in. I'm just kidding. There is a few that rise to the top.

50:29

I think Greg Bonson debating Gordon Stein is so unique because there is a true clash of worldviews.

50:38

And what Greg Bonson brought to the table is an epistemology, being self -aware of the world that you live in, and it's

50:45

God's world, right? You can't escape it. And so he literally caught Gordon Stein off guard with arguing for God transcendentally by the impossibility of the contrary.

50:56

And even though I only heard the debate, I could tell that Gordon Stein didn't know which way was up.

51:03

And but that's atheism. I mean, Scripture says the fool has said in his heart there is no

51:10

God. And so when you don't start with God and his revelation, you're morally bankrupt.

51:16

You can't know things, and yet you will say that you know things to be sure, or you will assert things as though that they are true.

51:23

And so that's been one of my absolute favorite debates. I will follow this up with Frank Turek debated

51:31

David Silverman on basically Does God Exist? And that was an interesting debate.

51:37

But then James White debated David Silverman on the same topic. I'm the one that arranged that debate in Amityville, Long Island.

51:45

Yeah, that was originally supposed to be Christopher Hitchens, who agreed to do the debate.

51:51

I had posters printed up. We were all excited about that. And then

51:56

Christopher's agent called me and said, I have some sad news.

52:02

Christopher can no longer participate because he was diagnosed with esophageal cancer. And the rest was history.

52:10

He passed away probably a year or two after that. But he had a spurt of health after that, and he was debating people, and I was upset.

52:24

I was like, hey, come back to me. But that was short -lived, and he passed away.

52:31

But yeah, David Silverman took up the challenge to fill in for Christopher Hitchens on the same theme,

52:41

Is the New Testament Evil? That's right. And I was the arranger and emcee of that, and my friend

52:49

Daniel Buttafuoco, an attorney, was the moderator. Well, massive props because that stood out to me, the difference, how

52:57

Dr. White engaged Silverman and how Frank Turick, who is just of a different apologetic tradition.

53:04

So those are the few that first come to mind. There's so many more, but those definitely first come to mind.

53:10

Are the Christians versus the atheists? And I actually moderated a debate between Frank Turick and an atheist whose name escapes me right now, but that was at Stony Brook University.

53:25

I was asked to be the moderator of that. I did not arrange that one. I was moderating it, though. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now.

53:33

Don't go away. We're going to be right back. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lynbrook Baptist Church, a

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01:04:56

Welcome back. Before I return to my conversation with Pastor Jeremiah Nortier and our theme, which is the great value of apologetics and public moderated theological debates,

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Last but not least, if you're not a member of a Christ -honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid, biblically faithful church, no matter where you live in the world,

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I have helped many people in our audience on all parts of the planet Earth find churches that are biblically faithful, sometimes within just a couple of minutes from where they live.

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And especially, I want to remind everybody listening, if you live in the Jonesboro, Arkansas area,

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I would highly recommend that you find out more about 12 .5 Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

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But if you live anywhere in the world and do not have a faithful church home, please send me an email to chrisorenson at gmail .com

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and put, I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in your questions to Pastor Jeremiah Nortier of 12 .5

01:08:26

Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas. We are talking about apologetics and live public moderated debates.

01:08:34

Our email address is chrisorenson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least. City and state and country of residence.

01:08:44

There are debates that I am hoping somebody takes up the mantle and participates in them.

01:08:57

One of which is I would love to see a debate and I'm actually going to be working on arranging a debate,

01:09:05

God willing, on egalitarianism, the ordination of women. But what are some debates that you personally have wanted to see or even participate in that have not yet occurred?

01:09:20

Yes, so this right here is actually how I got roped into debates.

01:09:26

So there's a few YouTube channels that platform debates pretty regularly. Marlon Wilson at The Gospel Truth, he's been hosting debates for a few years now.

01:09:36

And Donnie Brzezinski from The Canadian up north, Canadia A, he hosts debates at Standing for Truth YouTube channel.

01:09:45

I thought that they executed you in Canada for participating in debates. Oh, no. Maybe there's a special clause if it's on YouTube.

01:09:55

So I remember watching Marlon's channel, watching some debates, loving it, learning a lot. And so I sent in a suggestion.

01:10:03

I said, Marlon, anyway, you could moderate a debate between a church of Christ and a

01:10:10

Baptist on if baptism is necessary for salvation. You know, something pretty generic. And he messaged me back pretty quick and said, yeah,

01:10:17

I'll get on that. Hey, by the way, would you like to debate a Mormon? I said, what? And so anything, you know, anyway, one thing led to another.

01:10:25

And I got to be a part of my first debate with a Mormon on differing worldview perspectives.

01:10:31

So we actually got to debate four different topics or so. We got to debate on the gospel.

01:10:37

What is the gospel? We got to talk about Joseph Smith being in relation to Galatians 1.

01:10:43

So that was a lot of fun. The Trinity. And then I think we finished up with kind of a fourth topic on the sufficiency of Scripture.

01:10:51

So that's how I got roped in was by saying, hey, I'd like to see a debate on this.

01:10:57

And then Marlon and then once I participated, Chris, then I couldn't shake it off.

01:11:03

I had I had to do more. So yeah. Yeah. So I'm trying to think if there's anything that I would like to see debated.

01:11:13

There's a few people that I would like to see debate. I would like to see more of a robust debate between William Lane Craig and James White.

01:11:23

But I don't think it's going to happen. I think William Lane Craig mainly debates atheists.

01:11:29

I would like to see Dr. White debate Jay Dyer, Greek Orthodox. So we'll see.

01:11:35

We'll see if something like that can happen one of these days. Jay Dyer's the one that wrote that very bestselling book.

01:11:43

The what was it called? Perhaps I'm mistaking him for somebody else.

01:11:52

Well, I'm not 100 percent sure. He's a big online presence, especially on YouTube for the Greek Orthodox perspective.

01:12:00

Yeah. So I'm not sure he may have written a few books, by the way, folks, since you brought up Eastern Orthodoxy.

01:12:08

I am scheduled for this Wednesday to debate a former member of the

01:12:20

Oriental Orthodox group, who has, by God's mercy and grace, been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and become a

01:12:31

Reformed Baptist pastor. His name is Samuel Farag, and he is a pastor of Bethel Baptist Church of Gorham, New York.

01:12:48

And he is also founder of ExpositingTheWord .org.

01:12:57

So I hope that you tune in this Wednesday to hear

01:13:02

Samuel Farag tell us his fascinating story. But I interrupted you there, though.

01:13:12

Oh, you're good. You were saving me because I didn't really know of a potential topic that I'd like to see debated.

01:13:21

But I will say what I've debated the most is Church of Christ ministers, preachers, however they want to qualify themselves in debating baptism.

01:13:32

And does it ultimately justify us before God? And so that's kind of someone said that I was the

01:13:38

CEO of baptism debates. Well, I've got to check some of those. I did check one of them out with the

01:13:45

Church of Christ representative. I've got to check more out because they are a part of my roots.

01:13:54

I was raised Roman Catholic. But my brother

01:14:00

Bob in the 80s had become a member of a

01:14:06

Church of Christ congregation, and he would frequently invite me to worship services there.

01:14:13

And it was my first experience of semi -regularly attending a non -Roman

01:14:22

Catholic church and hearing the word of God opened up for the first time.

01:14:28

And I still have a huge place in my heart for folks in the

01:14:34

Church of Christ. And especially now in the 21st century, they are very difficult to pigeonhole because they are not monolithic.

01:14:45

They don't all believe exactly the same thing. And believe it or not, I have met and conversed with a couple of people.

01:14:53

Now, this is a very microscopic minority among them, but the people that believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace among them.

01:15:01

In fact, I interviewed David Lawrence, who was a

01:15:07

Church of Christ college professor at David Lipscomb University, and he became a

01:15:13

Calvinist while still on the faculty there. He is no longer affiliated with them and is a

01:15:22

Presbyterian, or at least a Reformed Phaedo -Baptist. But anyway,

01:15:29

I did a two -part interview with him, and it was pretty fascinating. Oh, wow. I'll have to check that out. Also, when you mentioned

01:15:35

Samuel Farag, I believe he was interviewed by Tony Costa a couple months ago, and I want to recommend people go listen to that.

01:15:44

It was very insightful. Yes. Well, oh,

01:15:51

I have another listener question that is kind of the reverse of one we heard earlier.

01:15:59

We have Santos in Morristown, Vermont, and he asks, what is the worst debate you've ever witnessed that you believe never should have happened?

01:16:15

There are probably a lot of those. So I'm just going with the things that first come to mind.

01:16:22

Now, it's the worst in terms of substance exchange, but, you know, there's some entertainment that goes with these kinds.

01:16:29

But I remember Dr. White and Jeff Durbin debated two atheists, and one of the atheists literally had, like, poison and was, like, daring Jeff and White to drink it and prove that they're truly disciples, according to Mark 16.

01:16:43

I just remember I couldn't believe it. So I think in terms of shock value and things you would never anticipate and definitely break some metric rules,

01:16:53

I'm sure, that one probably is up there. Yeah, that gentleman

01:16:59

I heard is also, according to James, he's a genius of sorts, something involving the medical field,

01:17:08

I think involving prosthetics maybe. Yep, yep, you're right. Okay, well,

01:17:16

I'd like you to really start highlighting some of the main areas why apologetics is greatly valuable and also, obviously, why debates are greatly valuable.

01:17:33

And perhaps I'll even start off with saying, although not everybody is called to be a debater, and as we both agreed earlier, there are people doing debates that shouldn't be.

01:17:45

They just don't have the knowledge or the skill set or the temperament for it, either because they're too docile or they're too hot -headed.

01:18:00

But what I was going to say is that every Christian, are we not, every single believer, we are called to be an apologist, not necessarily trained in the original languages and that kind of thing, but we are to be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us.

01:18:21

And we are really called to be able to have meaningful conversation with those who reject the gospel.

01:18:30

Am I right? You're absolutely right. I was going to say, if you profess Christ, you definitionally are an apologist.

01:18:39

The question is, are you a good one or are you a bad one? And going back to my early 20s of sharing my faith in Jonesboro, I encountered a

01:18:50

Jehovah's Witness that basically asked me, where does the Bible teach the Trinity? And I was caught without an answer, and it really haunted me.

01:19:00

I couldn't sleep at night essentially over it, and God used that to really teach me to meditate in his word, to be able to articulate the truths that I already believe.

01:19:10

And so it was moments like that that have really compelled me to dive deeper, to rightly handle the word with precision, like the scripture we read earlier.

01:19:19

And so I was going to say this too, something Dr. White said a while back, and I really resonate with this, is he kind of started out evangelizing, witnessing to Mormons.

01:19:30

So his apologetics ministry kind of started there. And then over time, being malleable for other apologetic issues that come up.

01:19:40

So he didn't really seek out after anything in particular. It was really the providence of God.

01:19:46

And so I wanted to kind of relate this back to me. So I think I just enjoy the deep study and dialogue, the theological conversations, whether that's on the

01:19:56

Lord's Day with the saints or with saints throughout the week, or interacting with those with different worldviews.

01:20:01

So that's already doing apologetics. So in Jonesboro, the

01:20:07

Church of Christ are everywhere. Now, I get what you said earlier, like there's different kinds of Church of Christ kind of sects.

01:20:15

Now, I've kind of looked at it like this. You have a hard line, far right, that are

01:20:21

Rookmanites, and that really holds that they're the one true church. Rookmanites.

01:20:28

Yeah, and I actually could be conflating terminology there. But the far right are those that claim to be the one true church,

01:20:36

Romans 16, 16. And if you aren't obeying the five -step formula and baptized in their church, then you're outside the faith.

01:20:44

Well, they're not King James only or dispensational like Rookman was. Well, so there's strong overlap.

01:20:52

A lot of them will be King James only. Yep. But going back to what you said earlier, that's going to vary.

01:21:01

Now, there is a particular strand of Church of Christ that claim to be the one true church. So that's the far right

01:21:08

Church of Christ, distinguished from the right moderate leaning, that still believe that when you're getting baptized, you have to believe that God is remitting your past sin.

01:21:20

But they're a little bit more up to speed in church history and so on and so forth. And they'll talk to you about Alexander Thomas Campbell from 1811 and the

01:21:29

Restorationist movement. As for that far right, they don't care—no creed but Christ, just the book of Acts in Christians today.

01:21:38

And so my point is, that's the kind of Church of Christ that exists in my area. And so as I was sharing my faith, you know, getting challenged by Jehovah's Witnesses.

01:21:46

And here in Jonesboro, you either have friends or family that are Church of Christ. And so as I was sharing the

01:21:53

Gospel of Grace, I noticed we meant different things by the terms that we were using.

01:22:00

What Walter Martin in the Kingdom of the Cult said, you know, you have to scale the language barrier and you must define your terms.

01:22:07

And what I've tried to encourage people is, you must define your terms or the enemy will. So what do you mean by faith?

01:22:13

What do you mean by baptism? What do you mean by obedience? What do you mean by justification and sanctification?

01:22:19

Those things. So anyway, Church of Christ has been my major point of evangelism.

01:22:26

At the Apologetic Dog, you'll see me doing a lot of Church of Christ debates. I run a Facebook group called

01:22:32

Church of Christ Exiles where we have over 400 members, many of which have been saved out of the

01:22:37

Church of Christ movement, and they just need community. Because a lot of these things is you lose your family, your community, your friends when you leave the

01:22:46

Church of Christ altogether. And so that's been number one. And so, Chris, there's a second category of apologetics that I have dabbled in actually a lot and have had people all over the world reach out for my help and guidance is the cult of hyper -preterism.

01:23:05

So the belief that all prophecy has been fulfilled culminating in 70

01:23:11

AD, namely the second coming of Christ, which had to be spiritual, the resurrection of the dead, which has to be spiritual, not physical, and the restoration of all things.

01:23:20

And so we've had this pop up in my area. So that's really challenged me in terms of eschatology.

01:23:26

But I engage with a lot of hyper or full preterism content, mainly because I've had friends get swept away in that movement and people knocking on my door saying, hey, how do we respond to these arguments?

01:23:37

Yeah, that really is their gospel. The hyper -preterist gospel is to declare to the world that they've got to know that Jesus already returned finally in 80 -70.

01:23:53

He's not going to be returning in our future, at least bodily and physically and visibly, and that the dead will not rise in the future, neither the saved nor the damned.

01:24:06

And they are obviously seriously heretical and don't even agree with each other.

01:24:13

They are not monolithic. They have in -house wars with each other. Chris, you might have known this, but full preterism, fully codified as covenant eschatology, began maybe 30 -ish years ago, maybe touching 40 with Max Keene, that was the

01:24:32

Church of Christ minister. Yes. And they make interesting bedfellows between Church of Christ and Calvinists, because most of those that I've encountered who have become full preterists come from either of those backgrounds.

01:24:53

And I even was at a debate where the two hyper -preterists, one was Church of Christ and one was

01:24:59

Presbyterian. Oh, goodness. And so it's kind of interesting that they would make bedfellows that way, because that is more important than anything else to them, at least very often in the way they behave.

01:25:18

I'm not trying to read minds and hearts here, but the way that they behave and interact with other people just seems apparent.

01:25:30

But yeah, that is a dangerous viewpoint.

01:25:36

And it's amazing what the draw is, because it's so pessimistic and depressing that this world will never come to an end and sin will exist for all eternity.

01:25:52

And the only thing I could think that would be a draw to it is that you get to join this unique elite club where you have the insight scoop on what the

01:26:04

Scriptures really teach, and everybody else is an idiot. Yep. Yeah, that's usually what

01:26:10

I point people to, is that feeds into a kind of pride in Gnosticism, that you have this special insight that the church universal in light of everything that's been disputed for 2 ,000 years, the one thing that has unified the church is our future blessed hope in Christ and his return to resurrect the dead and restore all things.

01:26:31

So I think you're right. I think that feeds into certain people. And there's a lot of people that are caught without a defense with all these timing indicators and all these things will happen to this generation and people just not having a robust eschatology.

01:26:47

So I try to really help encourage people on how to really point to a few absolutely clear passages that just defeats full preterism before it even gets off the ground.

01:26:59

RJ in White Plains, New York wants to know, do you think it is appropriate to ever pay a heretic when he or she participates in a debate?

01:27:15

Great question. For one, I would say maybe that is a convictional issue. So I could understand certain travel expenses to pay, but I would say absolutely not.

01:27:27

Don't give them a big paycheck. That's my thought, is if a heretic doesn't want to come debate someone that's sound of the faith, then yeah, they're just not going to be that type of person.

01:27:40

So yeah, I wouldn't try to make a law where there is no law, but definitely don't go against conscience.

01:27:47

I think I would be a little gracious, like I said, with some of those traveling expenses to make a big event happen.

01:27:53

But yeah, I think there definitely needs to be limits to things like that. Yeah, I have in the past taken a collection at debates and divided the collection evenly 50 -50.

01:28:05

Unlike what – the group, the

01:28:10

Roman Catholic group that arranged a debate between Jerry Matotex and Eric Svensson decades ago, they unfairly – since the audience was 95 percent

01:28:25

Roman Catholic, they unfairly divided the collection. The Catholics' donations will go to Jerry Matotex and the non -Catholics will go to Eric Svensson.

01:28:37

But obviously that is unfair. But lately, for quite a while, the debates that I have arranged,

01:28:44

I no longer need to or offer an honorarium because the debaters are just so anxious to participate in them.

01:28:54

Although from time to time, I do provide lodging and so on.

01:29:02

Great point. Excellent question.

01:29:10

We have Larry in Copeg, Long Island, New York.

01:29:17

And Larry says, who do you think are the most skillful debaters defending the true teachings of Christianity alive today?

01:29:32

That's a great question. That rules out Dr. Bonson because he's in heaven. That's true.

01:29:37

That's true. He definitely goes down in the history books. So I'm going to start with Dr.

01:29:43

White. He kind of has an untouchable debate history. He's coming up on 200 debates.

01:29:51

And what's neat is he's not a one -string banjo. He has debated multiple topics with the best of the best.

01:29:58

And so definitely a role model, a giant in the faith, someone who

01:30:03

I've looked up to and had the pleasure of being debate partners with just about a week, week and a half ago.

01:30:09

So that was incredible. So William Lane Craig, if you ask Grok or an

01:30:14

AI bot, usually they say that the best Christian debater defender is

01:30:20

William Lane Craig, which cracks me up. And there's so many things that you can learn from William Lane Craig and his perspective.

01:30:26

And I do think he believes in the right gospel of grace. So praise God. And he usually shares testimony and a true understanding of the gospel in his closing statements.

01:30:36

So I'm very thankful for that. I will say Tony Costa has always impressed me.

01:30:41

That's why I've reached out to him and definitely consider him a mentor and someone I consult with with exegetical questions and theological questions.

01:30:49

And I'm going to throw another name out there that – tell me, Chris, if you know, but what's his –

01:30:56

Anthony Rogers. Yes. In fact, Anthony is supposed to be on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:31:02

He was originally scheduled to be on the – I believe the Monday after my brother passed away, which was only two

01:31:12

Saturdays ago. I did not know, obviously, that was going to occur. So I had to postpone my interview with Anthony, and I hope he's listening and contacts me so we can reschedule.

01:31:25

I'll put it in a good word for you. I almost said Adrian Rogers. I was like, that's not the debater I'm thinking about.

01:31:31

That's an easy mistake to make since it's an A. Rogers. Yeah, so me and Anthony, we've done a lot of live streams together, and we came together – well, for one, he debated in Eastern Orthodox on the doctrine of justification by faith.

01:31:46

And that same night I was on a different platform debating a church of Christ on the doctrine of justification. So we kind of did our own fun review together, and then

01:31:54

I came back on his channel to talk about cantilism or hyperpreterism. And so we kind of did a three -hour live stream talking about eschatology.

01:32:03

So we are good friends. We have William in Collingwood, New Jersey.

01:32:11

Afternoon, Chris. Enjoying your show today. I have a question for Jeremiah. Have you ever engaged in a debate with those who hold to the position exclusive psalmody and worship, or do you have any resource recommending that subject?

01:32:27

Yeah, that would be an in -house debate because there are many wonderful brethren who believe that we are only to sing the psalms and worship and not non -inspired hymns.

01:32:39

And they even divide over exclusive a cappella worship and instrumental worship.

01:32:46

Joel Beakey, for one, is an exclusive psalmist who believes in using instrumental worship.

01:32:52

But most, especially in the Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America and the

01:32:59

Free Church of Scotland Continued and others, they do not use musical instruments. But if you could, have you ever debated this issue?

01:33:10

I have not debated this issue, but being a pastor and elder, this is something I've deeply looked into on the

01:33:18

Lord's Day and the regulative principle. So I want to direct the listener to my

01:33:24

YouTube channel and go look at my live streams where I have a guest on and we talk about the regular principle of worship.

01:33:32

Because I do highlight why I think many Presbyterians kind of fall into the exclusive psalmody position.

01:33:40

Now, like I said, there are going to be people that disagree with me, but I think it's their view of the covenants that lend towards that thinking.

01:33:46

But as a Reformed Baptist, we believe the new covenant is better in every way.

01:33:51

And so I look at Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, that talks about making psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to one another.

01:33:59

I try to highlight how there is liberty that's embedded in good principles to the glory of God on the

01:34:07

Lord's Day. And I think that alone shows that Paul is saying there is freedom in the new covenant to make new songs, spiritual songs, that reflect definitely those truths.

01:34:19

But this is something I want to say to maybe the Reformed Baptist crowd is we do need to sing the psalms.

01:34:25

I just don't think it's meant to exclusively do that. This has been just a couple months ago, but I talked about what does

01:34:36

Christian Sabbath worship look like and the regular principle, and we get into that issue. Amen.

01:34:41

Great question, William. By the way, I want to remind all of our listeners who have submitted questions, if you are a first -time questioner, you have won a free

01:34:55

New American Standard Bible. And that will be shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, at no charge to you or to us, and also compliments of the publishers of the

01:35:09

New American Standard Bible, nasbible .com, nasbible .com.

01:35:14

And we want to thank them, nasbible .com, from the bottom of our hearts. For just last

01:35:21

Thursday, I believe, they renewed their advertising contract with us, and they are among our most faithful and generous financial supporters and have been supporting this program since they first launched it in 2005 on Long Island, New York, WNYG Radio.

01:35:43

And they also have been financially supporting the debates that I have arranged with Dr.

01:35:49

James R. White dating back to 1996, before I even had my own radio show.

01:35:55

So, fine group of folks there. Thank you, Pike Landis. Chris, what does the

01:36:02

R stand for, James R. White? You know, I did know this, but I don't know.

01:36:11

That's okay. Perhaps that's just a description, poor grammar,

01:36:18

James R. White, instead of James is white. I don't know. I think it might be

01:36:24

Robert, for some reason. That's what I was thinking. But yeah, I will ask him.

01:36:31

We are going to our final break right now. And once again, if you do have a question, now is the time to submit it, because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:36:42

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least. City and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

01:36:57

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

01:37:02

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

01:37:12

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

01:37:22

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

01:37:29

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01:37:38

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

01:37:44

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr.

01:37:49

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

01:37:55

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01:38:26

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01:38:31

Or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831.

01:38:39

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01:38:56

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01:39:03

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

01:39:11

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:39:24

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01:39:31

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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01:39:54

Our website is GraceChurchAtFranklin .org. That's GraceChurchAtFranklin .org.

01:40:02

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

01:40:07

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

01:40:18

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

01:40:23

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

01:40:29

Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

01:40:39

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

01:40:45

Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

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Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the Body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

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01:41:36

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

01:45:51

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

01:45:58

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

01:46:04

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

01:46:10

He sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

01:46:18

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

01:46:30

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area, or Queens, or Brooklyn, or the

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Bronx, in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

01:46:47

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

01:46:56

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

01:47:22

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

01:47:29

I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother,

01:47:35

Chris Arnzen, in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now,

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And once again, don't forget that cvbbs .com is now shipping worldwide, so anybody in our audience, no matter where you live on the planet

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We also want to remind our listeners that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco &

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Associates. If you are the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the

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United States, please call Daniel P. Buttafuoco, Attorney at Law at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit his website, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com,

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1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. And please make sure you tell Daniel P.

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Buttafuoco, Attorney at Law, that you heard about his law firm, Buttafuoco & Associates, from Chris Arns of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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I also want to remind all men in ministry leadership that I am having two free pastors luncheons coming up, one in May, actually

01:50:10

Thursday, May 1st, featuring Dr. Jason Lyle, the world -renowned

01:50:15

Christian astrophysicist. And one on Thursday, September 18th, featuring my very dear friend,

01:50:22

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. If you would like to register for either or both of these free pastors luncheons, if you're a man in ministry leadership, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:50:36

and put pastorsluncheon in the subject line. It's absolutely free of charge, and not only is your meal free and your opportunity to hear these speakers, these brilliant men speak for free, everybody in attendance will receive free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the

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United States and the United Kingdom. Everything is absolutely free. So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:51:03

if you would like to register. Well, I would like you to highlight some more reasons why

01:51:12

Christians should be blessed by and support and attend debates, especially when they are featuring highly qualified, brilliant men, and the role of apologetics in the average

01:51:35

Christian's life, why more churches should take that field very seriously.

01:51:44

Yeah, well, on one of your commercials where you're talking about Dr. Jason Lyle, I've had him on my program as well, and he's debated

01:51:51

Christians on the origins of the universe or how to interpret

01:51:57

Genesis, and this is what I want to impress upon people. It was so informative for me.

01:52:04

I was challenged. How do I look at Yom and Genesis chapter one, cross -referencing that with Exodus chapter 20, with remember to keep the

01:52:14

Sabbath holy, and it continues to talk about God created the world in six days and just getting to hear other

01:52:20

Christian men who've been blessed with the Spirit, right, with their own giftings and skill set, sharpen one another, right?

01:52:29

This is the Iron Sharpening Iron radio show. So that's one way a debate can sharpen you, compel you to go deeper into certain doctrines.

01:52:40

And so that's inherently biblical. I was going to kind of point people to a passage in 2

01:52:46

Peter. Remember, 1 Peter 3 .15 talks about be ready to give a defense for the hope that lies within you.

01:52:52

2 Peter goes on to say in 3 .18, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our

01:52:58

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And so I think especially in -house debates is meant to sharpen you in your understanding of who

01:53:08

Christ is, what His Word teaches us, equips us for ministry, the good work.

01:53:15

And so also those debates where Christians engage with atheists, hopefully that helps equip you, spurs you on to know how to witness to unbelievers and some of the arguments that get brought up.

01:53:29

So that's probably the biggest takeaway is you're not supposed to turn your mind off, but when you engage in debates, think critically.

01:53:38

That's ultimately what we're called to do as Christians, to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, and mind, right?

01:53:46

And so that means to think critically about this world that we live in to the praise of His glorious grace.

01:53:52

Yes, one thing I've told opponents to debate is that if you are going to inform and educate and warn your congregations, your brothers and sisters in Christ about false teaching, if you are dead set against debates, you never promote them, you never attend them, you speak out against them, basically what you wind up doing is you're always merely bad -mouthing people of different beliefs behind their backs.

01:54:33

You are not desirous of seeing champions of the true

01:54:43

Christian faith defend and proclaim truth and expose error.

01:54:50

And when you are only resorting to bad -mouthing people behind their backs, either individuals or groups of people, denominations, cults, etc.,

01:55:04

very often when that kind of behavior is perpetuated, you have slander developing, perhaps even often unconsciously, against these groups.

01:55:19

Because remember, even if an individual or group has a false gospel, false understanding of God, it is still a sin to slander that person or group by declaring publicly false information about them.

01:55:37

So am I making sense where I'm coming from here? Absolutely, yeah, yeah. And one thing

01:55:46

I try to remind people is debating can be done in bad faith, and that's not what we're pushing for.

01:55:51

And usually in those one -on -one discussions when I'm articulating what biblical debating looks like, how the apostles did that, our

01:55:58

Lord and Savior, prophets of old, and Paul says, And usually

01:56:05

I have a lot—people understand a lot more what I'm talking about when we're framing it that way, that love is preeminent, covers a multitude of sins, and then gives us an opportunity to say, look,

01:56:18

God is sovereign and He uses means. And so usually with those in -person encounters explaining these things, it usually goes a lot better.

01:56:26

Well, I want you to, for two minutes, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:56:33

Well, it all goes back to glorifying the triune God, and Jesus Christ is our

01:56:40

Lord and Savior. He's the only Savior that the world has ever known. And so if I could talk about anything for two minutes, it would be the gospel, the good news, that you can truly have your sins forgiven, paid for, and full when you put your faith alone in Christ alone.

01:57:00

When I say that, I'm not talking about your faithfulness, right, your obedience, and your being able to solus bootstraptus, pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

01:57:11

No, I'm talking about a trust in the one who is perfect, which is also a denial that you cannot be made right before God.

01:57:19

Who is the blessed man of Romans 4, quoting Psalm 32? It's the one that understands that he can offer nothing spiritually before God.

01:57:30

It's the person that says, God, be merciful to me, a sinner. And so for the one that understands that he is morally bankrupt, that he is poor in spirit, that is the person that can experience forgiveness of sins.

01:57:44

And when someone has their heart changed and they're looking to Christ, well, that's a game changer. Now you live to the glory of God in good works.

01:57:52

So works are good. That's just not a part of the gospel message. We don't put our faith in Christ plus try to morally reform our life.

01:57:59

No, when you trust in Christ and he has gifted you the Holy Spirit, well, now you can live to the glory of God and live differently and interact with a dark and dying world and proclaim that gospel of peace, that gospel of grace, that Jesus Christ is the only

01:58:14

Savior. Amen. And I want to remind our listeners that the website for 12 .5 Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas, where my guest pastors, is 125church .com,

01:58:25

and that's the word 12, the number 5, church .com. And give us the website again for TheApologeticDog.

01:58:34

TheApologeticDog .com, and I do a lot of content on YouTube, so you can find me there as well. Well, thank you so much for doing such an exquisite job.

01:58:41

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater