Common Christian Cliches

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Do you post the video? Yeah. All right. Here we go.

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Come to Theology Throwdown.

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We, the Christian podcast community of podcasters, gather to discuss our theological differences with love and charity.

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This is a ministry of striving for eternity. All right, well, welcome to another

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Theology Throwdown. This is part of the Christian podcast community, where the Christian podcast community members get together and discuss theology.

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We're going to have a number of guests on today, but you know, one of the things I'm noticing is you can always tell when you're doing a

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Zoom meeting with podcasters. We all have these good mics in front of us. Instead of already doing Zoom meetings and everyone's using a laptop, you know,

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Mike, I do our elder meetings sometimes by Zoom and it's like, you know, can you get closer to that laptop for me?

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All right. So let's start off. We're going to introduce ourselves. Tonight's topic is going to be, well, probably some things you've said before and after the show, you may regret, but we've probably said them too, but common

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Christian cliches, some that are scriptural and some that are, well, nowhere in scripture.

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So I'm going to have us each introduce ourselves, our podcast, tell a little bit about yourself.

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So I'll start with in what's on at least on my screen on my top right, Nathaniel, go for it.

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Yeah, I'm Nathaniel Jolly. I've got the host of the Truth Be Known podcast and I'm actually a church planning pastor in a small town in Alaska.

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And so we've been here for just a few months doing that. And yeah, it's good to be on with you guys. And when you started with us, you were headed to right around Alaska, right?

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It was pretty close. Yeah, pretty close. Alaska, Africa, both start and end with A.

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And so for the first time with us as well is Mr. Tim Martin. We've been trying to get him on for quite a while, so we'll go with Tim and then

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Eve so that you're on the same podcast, so go for it. Eve, would you like to?

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Tim doesn't want to talk. The topic was his idea.

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Yeah. Well, Tim and I are co -hosts of the Are You Just Watching podcast, and we discuss movies with a

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Christian worldview, secular movies with a Christian worldview. So we get to point out all the things that they get wrong.

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But I also have a book, so as you can see from my screenshot, I have a guided journal that will help you discuss and watch movies with a

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Christian worldview instead of shutting your brain off. And it's nicely titled

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Are You Just Watching, just like the name of your podcast. Yes. So, Aaron, you're up.

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My name is Aaron Brewster, sometimes known as AM Brewster. I am the host of two podcasts, the first of which has been going for about four years now.

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It's called Truth, Love, Parent. I'm a biblical family counselor, and so Truth, Love, Parent is all about being a biblical parent, learning what it means to parent the way

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God called and created us to parent. The second podcast that started earlier this year is called

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The Celebration of God. And really, it's all about discipleship and worship, giving

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God the preeminence that he deserves every day of every week of every year, and then helping others to do the exact same thing.

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And I'm glad, because now I'm not the only person that has more than one podcast. So I was glad when you joined for that reason.

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By the way, most kids, you must have exceptional kids, because most parents have pictures from their kids drawing a house behind them, and that picture of the house behind you is like perfectly straight lines.

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That's amazing. Your kids are amazing. Andrew, I drew that one.

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We did learn before we started recording, we should call you Master Brewster. Master Brewster, yeah, which in the context of a throwdown is completely appropriate.

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I am a martial artist. So watch yourself. Yes. Okay. So now I have to ask, what styles?

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Well, I've studied 10 different martial arts. I have black belts in three of them. So my highest rank, fifth degree black belt is actually in ninjutsu.

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So yes, I technically am a ninja. Legitimately, I am a ninja.

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But I have black belts in Tang Sudo, and I've studied various martial arts, sundry.

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All right. Well, I have some karate and jiu -jitsu, but I'm not going to mess with you. Sounds like he's forgotten more martial arts than I learned.

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Drew, you're up. Yeah. My name is Drew Vanita, and I host the Matter of Theology podcast.

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I live in the great state of Georgia. Go dogs. And by day,

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I am a FedEx driver, and this is the worst time to be doing FedEx.

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So it's amazing that I'm still awake right now. But by night, I crack open some theology books, and this is my real bookshelf.

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It's not a green screen. It's real. With all the John Owens stuff.

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All the John Owens stuff, which also, because I host

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Matter of Theology, we're doing a giveaway. We're giving away some John Owens books. So if you listen and you have not entered, go enter.

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Yeah, so I was going to mention it later, but if you want to enter into that contest to get two different John Owens books,

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Death of Death, and also Mortification of Sin. I forgot which one, if it's

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Indwelling or Mortification. So Mortification of Sin, you could just go to podcasts, plural, podcasts .strivingforeternity

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.org slash John Owen, all lowercase. Daniel, you're up next.

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Well, I'm Daniel Minnick, the host of the Truthspresso podcast. And in my podcast,

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I like to try to take an in -depth look at various things, particularly theology.

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And with the year 2020, I kind of got a little bit deep into economics, almost my vendetta against the government.

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And so even to the point of doing a three -part short story that I wrote called

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The Tale of the Superblians, but never fear, I will move on from a sci -fi story, trying to teach economics and go back into theological topics, starting with Christmas.

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And then I'm going to get into church history and comparing heresies about who

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Jesus is to superheroes. And then I'll do a series on Jehovah's Witnesses.

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So stay tuned for some in -depth theological and historical topics on Truthspresso.

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I'm always amazed that you got all those voices in. Anthony, you're up. Let me explain that.

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If you haven't heard those last three shows, this story he wrote, he's got like all these different voices he plays.

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Including Bernie Sanders, right? So basically, just go listen to their podcast.

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They already sound fascinating. So anyway, but I am the host of Grace and Peace Radio.

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Grace and Peace Radio is a Christian living blog and podcast dedicated to encouraging people in their walk in the

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Lord, basically. I just try to pull together things that help me to grow in the

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Lord and share them with people. So pretty everyday stuff. Doing a little two -part series right now on spiritual strength for dark days and just some ways that we can encourage ourselves and others to persevere in dark days.

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And since you forgot to give your name, that's Anthony Russo there. That is Anthony Russo. And finally, after all these years of podcasting, he had his first guest, but it was cheating on his wife.

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Well, no, no, no. I've had guests, but this was the first time that she co -hosted. And this was episode like 42,

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I think, or 41 or 42. All right. And Colleen. Hi, I'm Colleen Sharp, and I host

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Theology Gals podcast and or podcast on Reformed Theology.

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We're confessional Presbyterians and we're never controversial.

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Never. And if you see anything said about us, it's probably true.

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Not. You can believe everything that you read on. It's always very fascinating when people send me screenshots about myself and Colleen, such and such.

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It's always learned things I didn't even know that I believed. Yeah. You are also the chief administrator of the

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Christian podcast community and you co -host. So you want to be a podcaster with me? That's when we do together.

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I am Andrew Rappaport. I'm the executive director of Christian podcast community, and I have a number of podcasts.

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So I'll just stick with The Rappaport, which is my main one, along with Apologetics Live, which is there for you to ask any theological questions or challenges on a

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Thursday night. You can just go to ApologeticsLive .com and join us there. And I have a couple others, but that's all right.

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We'll just move on to our topic tonight. So we want to do is talk about Christian cliches.

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Things we hear. Some that are from Scripture and some that, well, are nowhere found in Scripture.

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So, or as I think it was Tim that said, ain't in Scripture. Ain't nowhere in Scripture.

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Let's start with those that are nowhere in Scripture. And then we'll get to some that are in Scripture. So what we'll do, the way this works, folks, is

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I'm going to just give these different cliches. We're going to all talk about it and we'll try to move on from one to another.

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So anyone who wants to pipe up, just feel free. Anthony's better at like picking on people.

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But hopefully we'll get lots of dialogue. So the first one is hate the sin, but love the sinner.

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I'm sure you guys have never, ever heard that one before. Actually, I don't know who made this one popular.

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I want to say it's Billy Graham, but I don't know if it was before him. It was actually Mahatma Gandhi in his autobiography from 1929.

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Really? Yep. Wow. Okay. And even that's a paraphrase.

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Yeah, but that would be because he wasn't speaking English. It would actually be a translation. It was a longer sentence, but that's what it boils down to.

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All right. So have you guys heard this one before? This is in the category of found nowhere in Scripture.

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So what are your thoughts on this? I mean, if you've been in the church for any amount of time, this is a phrase that we have heard.

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The problem is the people who say it are the ones who don't actually study Scripture because Scripture actually says the opposite.

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I mean, just go to Psalm 5, 5, where it says, the Lord hates all who do iniquity.

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And that's another phrase, right? Well, God doesn't hate. Actually, He does. It says He does in His words.

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And not to mention, God doesn't send the sin to hell.

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He sends the sinner to hell. I don't know how you get around that one. Yeah, I'd like to add that.

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Yeah, that's probably the, I had that verse also. I think it's the most common verse to reply to that phrase.

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Also, Proverbs 6, 16 through 19, which are the six, actually the seven things that God says

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He hates. The last two in verse 19 says, a false witness that speaks lies and he that sows discord among the brethren.

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So the last two mentioned are people. God hates people. And, you know, and of course, what is it that I'm trying to think of the verse, you know, we are all children of wrath, even as they, before we're converted.

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So, you know, God hates people, but we're saved by grace.

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And so we're under the wrath of God until the blood of Jesus Christ is applied to us through faith via justification.

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And then we're loved by God as one of His children. So, yeah,

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I definitely agree that that phrase is not biblical. I think another important one is

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Psalm 11, 5. It says that the one who loves violence,

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His, referring to God, his soul, his soul hates. So again, yeah, we're seeing that God does actually hate the individual who is doing this and he hates the sin, but he also in a way hates the sinner.

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But I think the really important concept here is that biblically speaking, you can love someone and hate them at the exact same time.

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You know, within a modern context, you know, hate is the antithesis of love, but biblically speaking, that's not the case.

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And I think that's where our breakdown comes in because yeah, God loves the sinner. Okay. Yeah, obviously he loved us.

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In Romans 5, 8, he demonstrated his love toward us. And that while we were sinners, right, he died for us.

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So clearly he loves the sinner and yet he can also hate the sinner. And biblically speaking, we're supposed to do the exact same thing.

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So if we don't understand biblically what love is and biblically what hate is, we're going to say ridiculous things like this.

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And we live in a culture now where people actually self -identify with their sin. So how do you separate the sin from the sinner when they actually identify themselves by their sin?

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Yeah, that's true. But yeah, I don't hear too many people saying I'm an adulterous Christian. I'm a lying

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Christian. You're not in the right denomination for that. Oh, okay. So let me throw another verse.

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I guess we're all in Psalms here. Another one at New King James is Psalm 711.

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God is a just judge and God is angry with the wicked every day.

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So I think clearly we see that what I really think that you hit on there was the definition of love and hate.

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Because several of these that we're going to come up upon today is going to deal with a misunderstanding of love.

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Defining love as the way much of the world wants to define love when it comes from God is

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God should love us and just basically spoil us, give us everything we want.

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Right? And I mean, maybe Aaron could answer this one being the counselor, right?

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What happens when we give kids everything they want with no consequences? Does that produce well -behaved children?

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Yeah, they grow up to be amazing, wonderful citizens. No, no, it doesn't.

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It's terrible. Spoiled children are awful and everyone knows it. Everyone in the store hates when a parent spoils their child.

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Oh, my word, yes. Maybe they grow up to be protesters. I don't know, something like that. Yes, they do.

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Yes, that's statistical. Yes, they do. One grew up to be president, the one before the current one that we have.

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Let me ask this then. Clearly this isn't biblical, and as Aaron pointed out, we can both love and hate at the same time.

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But how should this manifest in our dealings with both believers and nonbelievers?

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I would say you hate the sin.

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You hate what the person is doing, whether it's living a homosexual lifestyle that is against God, whether it is living a heterosexual lifestyle, living together with someone that is against what

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God says. Both of those are sin. You deal with those as you're presenting the gospel, and you love the sinner by telling them the truth.

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Well, I would also add that, yes, we hate the sin, but when people say we are to love the sinner, what they mean is that they're saying we need to accept and or celebrate the sin that the sinner is committing.

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So if we actually do that, we're actually showing that we're hating the sinner. We're hating the sin, and we're hating the sinner by allowing them to stay in that sin.

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So the most loving thing we can do, like you just said, is to give them the gospel. And then, sure, we love them through that, but we don't accept what they're doing, and we don't celebrate what they're doing.

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And I think also it's a matter of tact, knowing when to bring something up with someone.

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I think an extreme example to what Tim was saying, specifically within the body of Christ, well, first of all, again, we have to understand what the word hate means.

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It can refer to a strong emotional loathing, but it can also refer to standing against something, like drawing a line in the sand and saying, that's on that side, and I can't embrace that.

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It also can simply refer to loving something less. We see the Greek example of that in Luke 14, 26, where Christ says he has to hate his own father and mother to be my disciple.

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So we see all that. But I think an extreme example of this within the church is

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Matthew 18. So the most loving thing I can do is I can confront you about your sin.

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If you reject that, which in itself is a sin, then I bring some other people with me, so on and so forth.

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You keep rejecting, God forbid, we're now bringing you before the church. The most loving thing we can do, and if we define love biblically, okay,

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I like to define it this way. Love is wanting and working toward God's best interest in someone's life.

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Okay, that's the best way that I can love you. So if you've come to that place and you're just rejecting

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God's truth and rejecting reconciliation, the most loving thing I can do for you is to draw a line in the sand.

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And Christ says to remove you from the fellowship of the church. That, biblically speaking, could be defined biblically as hatred, to cause that separation, but it's being done because I love you.

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Right. Yeah, we also see that in 1 Corinthians 5 as well, when the person that is removed from the fellowship, in order that their soul might be saved.

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Yes, exactly. And specifically, Paul, of course, as you know, even says, hand that one over to Satan.

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I mean, that's, you want to talk about tough love? That's some tough love.

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Yeah, but I think that's an important, you know, distinguishing thing to have because when we talk about love, sometimes the most loving thing to do is something that the person isn't going to appreciate.

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I mean, any of us who have had children, you know, you're giving your child a spanking and saying,

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I'm doing this because I love you, and they're going, I don't feel it. No, you're feeling it.

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But it is the most loving thing you could do is, you know, I'd always explain to my son when he was younger and he'd say, this doesn't feel like love.

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And when he got, I'd always say when you get older and you don't do some things that, you know, would cause you trouble or kill you, you'll, you'll understand why as an adult, he could understand it, but he didn't understand it as a child.

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All right. So, so let's, let's move. Anyone else have anything more on that one? Yeah, I just add that.

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We could definitely find, as I mentioned, both love and hate. We can find verses that otherwise you'd think that they conflict with each other.

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If we don't understand that you can both love and hate at the same time. Like for example, in Psalm 139, 21 through 22, the

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Psalmist says, do I not hate them? Oh Lord, that hate the, am I. And I'm not,

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I grieve with those that rise up against the, I hate them with a perfect hate hatred. I count the mine enemies, but then we also have in Psalm 51, 13, then will

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I teach transgressors thy ways and sinners shall be converted unto thee. And so we have the idea of, okay, you're an enemy of God.

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You are under hatred. And I guess, yeah, like, like hating people that hate

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God doesn't necessarily mean that you wish them to the pit, but you know, you, you, you know, they're in a state where they're worthy of God's hatred, but you should also desire their conversion so that you no longer have to hate them.

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What's good. Yeah. Like the, you know, we're in Psalms a lot tonight, but all the, you know, the

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Psalms, the prehistoric prayers, you know, my enemies. Yeah.

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I mean, it seems like here's a man after God owns his heart and he says a lot of things like about, it seems he hates some people or is angry with them.

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I think the key thing for this one, and probably a lot of other ones we're going to talk about tonight is the fact that if you're understanding it within a modern typical use of English usage, right, then in a way there's, there's accuracy there, because you think of hating sinners and whatnot, you think of places like Westboro Baptist, which isn't even a church.

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Right. And of course we were not saying that we're not those people we, that is not the hatred that we're talking about.

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It's not the separation that the Bible talks about. So it is really important that when we're talking with people, if we encounter people who use that terminology that we tread lightly and help to unpack the scriptures, because if we say that people know you're supposed to hate the center, well, it's clear that a bunch of people who didn't understand the biblical terminology are going to misrepresent what we just said.

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Oh, go ahead. Well, I was just going to say that. God shows a general love to even the centers, right?

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He, he allows them air in their lungs. He allows the heart to beat.

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He allows them to wake up each new day. Right? So there is still portrayed to the center a general love and affection from God, as well as a, a hate or a wrath that still abides over them because of their sin and their separation from Christ.

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You made me think of the passage trying to look it up real quick and couldn't, but where, where God brings rain on the just and the unjust, you know, that fits well there.

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Matthew six. Thank you. So, yeah, I mean, it's, I think, I think really

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Aaron, what we're going to see with each of these is it comes down to principles of hermeneutics. I mean, most of these are issues of defining terms in, in their historical context, right?

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What does love mean in the Bible? Not what does love mean to, you know, 21st century Americans who, you know, march on the streets because they think that they're so poor.

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Actually, it's Matthew five. Sorry. I have to be proper there.

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I would say I would agree with that. It's an issue of, of, of not having a proper hermeneutic, but it's also trying to understand this conflict and between the hermeneutic and then tradition, because you have a lot of people that hold to these phrases that it's tradition, but they don't actually know the

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Bible. They don't know. So they don't understand hermeneutics or how to gain a proper hermeneutic. So they're trying to marry the two when the two aren't supposed to be together at all.

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And when you say tradition, you wouldn't be referring to like the 1689 London confessional, right?

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Not one bit. I just want to throw that out there. No, but like down here in the, in the

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South, like a lot of these are said all the time by church going people that not, they carry

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Bibles everywhere they go, but they have so much dust on them that Spurgeon said you could write condemnation on it.

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So, yeah. So, so real quick before, before we move forward, we just talked, we just used a big theological word for anybody who doesn't know what hermeneutic is.

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Can we give it like a one sentence? Well, actually, yeah, I was going to help somebody out. Yeah. Hermeneutics is, is the art and science of interpretation, right?

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So, and there's a lot to that. And why I say that it applies here is when you're studying sun, you want to study it in its historical context.

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When it was, you know, you think about FDR, there was a reporter that said he was a very gay man in today's day and age.

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Everyone thinks gay means homosexual, but in that time it meant happy. So you have to understand the terms there, which is why

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I brought up with what Aaron said. The other thing that we're going to see later on a bunch of context, just looking at context.

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It's, you know, there there's, but I also think with some of these, I won't move on to the next one, but you know, one of the things I find with, with what you said drew is maybe in certain areas, even more like in the

26:44

South, there are some of these that people think are in the Bible. I mean, some of these things I hate, hate the sin, love the sinner.

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People think that's in the Bible. I remember having a person that was convinced and told me I was wrong when I said that cleanliness is next to godliness.

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It's not in the Bible. They were like, yeah, it is too.

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I said, okay, find the verse, do a Google search and you know, it'll come up if it's there.

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I mean, that's like, that's the same as Mormons, right? Mormons say, well, the Bible says you shouldn't be contentious.

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And I say, okay, find it. And they go, well, I know it's in there. And I said, actually, it says the opposite.

27:23

I think we're going to get to that one. So let's move to the next one that's nowhere in scripture. God helps those who help themselves.

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I mean, that sounds pretty biblical, doesn't it? I'm going to throw this,

27:39

Nathaniel hasn't said much yet. So I'm going to throw this one out to Nathaniel to get your reaction first. Yeah.

27:45

I mean, my first thought is how many people help themselves get saved?

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I mean, I'm going to open up a bag of worms for you guys. Does God help the person who has helped themselves first to salvation?

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I think it was MacArthur that said, you know, if salvation was based upon me, you know, well it's all of my work that got me to need a

28:17

Savior. Yeah. Well, you know, the only thing we contribute to our salvation is our sin, right?

28:23

That's been said. I bring my sin and that's it. And God does the rest. I don't actually know where this statement comes from, but I grew up in the

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South as well in South Carolina. And this is something I heard all the time as well.

28:39

And of course, you know, where, where's it at in scripture? Yeah. My favorite thing.

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Go ahead, Daniel. Oh yeah. I think the, I was looking up that, this statement and it, you know, there's been various forms of it,

28:55

I think in ancient Greek philosophy. And then I think the one that I remembered it from was from Benjamin Franklin and poor

29:04

Richard's almanac. I think that's the occurrence that became popular because it was worded exactly that way.

29:10

And of course Benjamin Franklin, as far as we know was like a deist or something like that, you know, but if you're applying to this, this phrase to, you know, the idea of soteriology, it definitely would sound like Pelagianism, but I mean,

29:30

I'm sure that there's some, you know, valid applications of it depending on, you know, what, how, how you're trying to teach someone, like say, if someone is trying to just, okay,

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I'm not going to take any initiative in what I ought to do in this regard, not talking about salvation, but you know,

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I'm just going to leave it up to God and not go look. Yeah. I'm not going to do my job.

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I'm not going to sit here. I'm good. You know, I'm just going to sit here and not do what I know I ought to do.

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And then, you know, so you could say, well, you know, do you really expect God to just do everything for you while you sit idle?

30:11

You know, that's not faith. And so, you know, let go and let God mentality, right?

30:16

Yeah. Yeah. That's actually a, I was really surprised when

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I was reading Charles Spurgeon and he actually uses the phrase,

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God helps those who helps themselves. And it's exactly in the context that Daniel just presented.

30:34

He's talking about personal industry and that God does seem to help those who work hard and apply themselves and all that.

30:47

Obviously he wasn't talking about salvation, but in that regard, it was really cool to, to, to see that.

30:54

So, but that's one application that it does make sense. I mean, you know, I'd like to just stir the pot here in two ways.

31:02

First of all, according to christianity .com

31:10

Algernon Sidney was an English politician who lived in the 1600s and the actual

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English version of this quote supposedly was penned by that guy. So there we go. So Benjamin Franklin, you know, whatever it is, christianity .com

31:25

says it was Algernon Sidney. Anyway. Thank you for taking my ancestor out of the hot seat.

31:31

You're welcome. My pleasure. Anytime. The other thing is though, too, and I, I in Daniel beat me to it.

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But I think in a way, like, first of all, let me just, in all transparency, I've always hated this one.

31:43

I absolutely hate it, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate. We don't.

31:52

So, you know, sanctification, we talk about there being a co -operation between us and the

31:58

Holy Spirit's work in us. Right. I'm the Holy Spirit is not going to sanctify me despite me.

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There's got to be that, that, that me working along with Phil being filled with the spirit, you know, putting on the spirit, so on and so forth.

32:12

I have to put off, I have to renew my mind, I have to put on. So in a way if by help themselves, we're talking about doing what's in my best interest.

32:22

Okay. And what's in my best interest is God's best interest for my life. Then yes, I think we could argue that my what's in my best interest is

32:29

I'm going to run to Christ. I'm going to cast my burdens on him. I'm going to beg him for wisdom. I'm going to admit that I'm not enough.

32:36

I'm going to be grieved over my sin. I'm going to humbly go to him and do everything else that the scripture says that will result in me then hearing from God, because the bulk of the promises in the scripture are in fact conditional.

32:48

I don't think we'd like to focus on that too much, but the vast majority of scriptural promises are conditional. Even Romans eight 28, right?

32:55

So therefore there is something that's required to be done. However, I think the done being advocate now, right?

33:02

That's not really about me helping myself. That's about me giving God the preeminence of my life and submitting to him as the sovereign of my life.

33:09

And it is anything else. Well, yeah, I think, I think the context of, you know, help themselves, where do we, where do we place that context?

33:17

Right. Do we place it in? Well, you know, I want the big mansion, you know, on 5 ,000 acres of land, you know, therefore

33:26

I gotta help my, I gotta go help myself so that God can intervene and help me get the things that I want just for myself.

33:34

Right. Or am I seeking after the, these things in my life, moving in sanctification, not, not just for myself, but so that I can honor and glorify

33:46

God. Well, I think the first one you did is Joel Osteen's theology. I mean,

33:53

I do think like, just like the last one, there's an aspect of it where it can be somewhat true for us.

34:00

I mean, to say God hates the sin, loves the sinner is wrong, but to say that we should hate the sin, but still love the sinner could be true.

34:09

This one has an element where, again, it could be, it depends on how people mean it. It's, it's not that God sits back waits for you to do something and then says, oh, you're doing okay.

34:21

Now I can help you along, which is almost the way that some people make it sound. And it, but it is, if it's going to be speaking against the let go, let

34:31

God mentality, then yeah, it is something where, you know, we do have in scripture

34:37

Paul saying in Thessalonians, you know, if, if man doesn't work, he shouldn't eat. Right.

34:42

So yes, you should be working and, and God's going to bless you with this thing called food. Right. And so that's, there is an element where this could be true.

34:53

And I think that's why the, some of these people end up latching onto and, and using, and even thinking that's in scripture, because there's an element of truth that could be in there, depending how you, you interpret it.

35:06

And that's why when someone uses this, I think we should be careful to say, well, how do you mean that? Yeah.

35:12

Yeah. I think that's a good point, Andrew. And I mean, it comes up in all kinds of contexts. All you have to do is log onto Twitter and instantly you will think, okay,

35:22

I want to know definitions. I want to know the context. But people typically skip those things and just go, you know, straight beeline to comment on a lot of these things, just as I said, and others we're going to comment on tonight.

35:37

It's important that we talk about context. It's important that we define what we're talking about.

35:43

It's important to know what categories of things we're putting these in just because like, like what we said, you know, if you don't work, you don't eat.

35:52

There's some truth in those kinds of things. If you're talking about soteriology, then, you know, no way we have to give to that.

35:59

And, and isn't, I mean, really, this is true with almost every, you know, theological doctrinal issue we could come up with.

36:07

You could twist a little out of context. You could make it mean something that it doesn't mean. So these things really matter.

36:14

And, you know, I think if we develop the habit as believers of asking those critical questions, we'll eliminate a lot of misunderstanding.

36:23

Yeah. Yeah. You know, labels are only good if both people agree on what, what it means.

36:30

It's the reason people will ask me, are you a Calvinist? I will never answer that question because I don't know what you mean by it.

36:39

I have been told that, you know, I'm a heretic because I'm a Calvinist. And I've been told my heretic is

36:44

I'm not a Calvinist. So the only thing everyone agrees on is that I'm a heretic, but you know, you know, this, now the, this particular saying, bringing it back to the work of salvation, where we have

36:59

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Right. And what did Spurgeon say? Spurgeon was asked about that question.

37:05

How do those, how do you reconcile those things? And he said, well, it's not my job to reconcile friends.

37:10

Right. I don't really know how they work. They're like the train tracks that meet off in the distance, but I know they go together.

37:15

Right. So, so, so far the two cliche sayings we've looked at to Andrew's point about the hermeneutic, they only make sense when you approach them with a true biblical hermeneutic.

37:29

Correct. It's I, I, I like that comment because if you tie it back to people who don't work, don't eat, when you don't work, you are rebelling against God because man is man is made to work.

37:42

Right. It's, it was, it was like the, the first thing we were set on this planet to do and that, and when people misuse this one,

37:52

God helps those who helps themselves, they cherry pick, they cherry pick what they want it to mean.

37:59

And, and they're, they're not being there. They're being true to themselves.

38:04

They're not being true to God. And they're rebelling against God by idolizing their own needs, their own desires above what, what is in God's best interest.

38:15

And to Nathaniel's point, I'm going to mix together two quotes. Voltaire was the guy who said, basically, if you wish to converse with me, define your terms.

38:26

And it was John MacArthur who said to one of the guys who came in to be one of the, on staff there.

38:32

And the, the other pastor said, Hey, if, if we're, if I ever have to come to you and like confront you about something, you know, how do

38:39

I do this? I mean, like, he's like, you're John MacArthur. And MacArthur basically said, just bring your

38:45

Bible. So if we take those two ideas, if you wish to converse with me, define your terms, going back to what

38:51

Andrew said about a hermeneutic. And then we mix that with bring your Bible. Then we're saying, if you wish to convince, can converse with me, let's define our terms biblically.

39:00

And the moment that we do that, we're going to see so much clarity in all of these. That's what we're doing today.

39:05

You would be called a legalist for that. Yeah, I guess I'm a heretic too.

39:11

Can you just define that term? Legalism? It means whatever

39:17

I want it to mean. Yes, that seems to be true. I saw a pizza heresy this week on, on a

39:25

Twitter, something about shrimp and pineapples, but okay, let's go on. A mushroom. Well, okay.

39:30

First that was not on Twitter. I'm a Christian. Therefore Twitter doesn't allow anything

39:36

I say to be seen. So I'm on Parler, but that actually was on Facebook. Nathaniel, that falls under hate the sin, love the sinner.

39:49

Look, if you haven't tried pineapple and shrimp on pizza, you don't know what you're missing. I'm sorry.

39:55

The next one that I had on the list actually fits under the in scripture category. So I got to, I'm going to move the order.

40:02

But so the next one we'll deal with is God doesn't give you more than you can handle.

40:10

How many times have we heard that one? Can I take that one? Sure. Since I haven't said anything.

40:17

I was going to call on you anyway. First I needed to know, did Andrew sing in the last 15 minutes?

40:23

I texted him. I said I was stepping away and he always threatens to sing. I don't,

40:29

I don't threaten to sing. So when we do, so you want to be a podcaster, she'll have to step away and we know we're going to edit it out.

40:37

So I will, I will sing and I'm a bad singer. And there was once where she actually in the editing took the song and released that.

40:47

Well done. Well done. That was supposed to be a lesson. So. I haven't learned it obviously, but I didn't sing now.

40:54

Does Andrew ever learn any lessons he's supposed to learn? So this is one that, as somebody that struggles with some serious chronic health issues,

41:05

I can't tell you how many times, you know, it's supposed to make me feel better. God won't give me more than you can handle.

41:12

But a passage that I think says, contrary to that is from second

41:17

Corinthians one verses eight and nine. For, we do not want you to be unaware of brothers and sisters of our affliction, which occurred in Asia, that we were burdened excessively beyond our strength so that we despaired even of life.

41:33

And in some, some versions, it says, despaired to the point of death. Indeed, we have the sentence of death when within ourselves so that we would trust not in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead.

41:46

And I think God gives us more than we can handle so that we will trust in him and not in ourselves.

41:54

And I don't know if I can relate to that despaired to the point of death where the suffering is so great that death seems like a better option than continuing living.

42:07

You know, having suffered with just some physical pain and misery.

42:15

And it's in that moment where, and I have said, and I've prayed in, in my darkest moments, that my only option at that moment is to trust in the

42:26

Lord. And so sometimes we are given more than we can handle and it teaches us to trust more in the

42:33

Lord than on ourselves. Yeah. And I think that, I mean, that's the point that Paul was making when, when he would say to the

42:43

Philippians, you know, he'd rather be dead and be with Christ. It's, it's a far greater gain, but while he's here on earth, you know,

42:51

I'll serve in ministry. Basically, I think this one, though the phrase itself is not in scripture where I think most people try to get the idea from scripture is first Corinthians 10, 13, no temptation has overtaken you, but such as is common to man.

43:10

And God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also so that you, so that you will be able to endure it.

43:29

So when people say this idea that God doesn't give you more than you can handle, he does.

43:37

I mean, this verse, actually, this is the verse that people use to try to say, that's what this phrase is meaning.

43:43

And yet this, this says that you will be given temptation. It's just that God makes a way of escaping the temptation.

43:51

If you, if you heed him. And, but again, this is with temptation. That's different now with what in, so let me be specific in some definitions of terms.

44:00

What Colleen was talking about were trials. That's different than a temptation. Both are in the category of testings.

44:07

God allows us to be tested, but some are trials. Those are things from outside that we have no control over.

44:14

And then we have temptations, which are, which are from within us. And so when we're tempted from within, when we have a tempting thought that or what, whatever we are tempted with,

44:25

God makes a way of escape. So he does give us more than we're actually able.

44:31

It's when he, when he's saying he tempt, you're tempted beyond what you're able. You're not going to be tempted beyond what you're able, but it's more than you can handle.

44:41

It's just that there's also a way of escape. How do we know that it's more than you can handle because you don't always escape?

44:48

It's that simple. Yeah. And I think that this one, this one is extremely dangerous. It's not just a misused phrase.

44:55

It's something that's extremely dangerous because baby Christians can get discouraged when they come across things that they can't handle and it shakes their faith.

45:04

And if they, and if they're told by people that God doesn't give you more than you can handle, and then they're faced with a trial that they can't handle, that shakes their faith because then they're going, well, if God is real, he wouldn't be putting me through this.

45:17

And then that they, they actually can lose their faith over that. And that is, to me, that's dangerous.

45:24

That it's, it's not just a bad saying it's heresy. Well, I think ultimately, I think,

45:31

I think what you've meant knowing Eve, not that they, they lost their faith.

45:37

They would never, well, either, they were either weren't a Christian or it could, it could stunt their growth.

45:43

I mean, it can for a new Christian, it could hurt their sanctification because they don't grow because they get stuck, you know, but they don't lose their salvation.

45:55

They don't lose their faith. Just to be clear. I knew, I know, I know theology. Faith and salvation are a different thing.

46:02

So they, they lose their faith, but that doesn't necessarily mean they lose their salvation. Yeah. I think a danger we can get into with that saying, or that people can get into is it causes them to lean on themselves, right?

46:16

Well, God won't give you more than you can handle. Therefore everything now points to me and my ability to handle this, that, and the other thing, which ties back to Colleen's point, where our trials and our troubles, and even our temptations all under that umbrella of testing are meant for us to run to Christ because we can't do anything in and of ourselves.

46:40

Ultimately, we have to lean on Christ. See, I thought you were going to say, it actually ties with the last one we just covered, right?

46:46

Because if you, if you think, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It kind of, it kind of ties back into God helps those that helps themselves.

46:54

God, you're not going to, God's not going to give you more than you can handle and Hey, you can work at it and God will help you.

47:02

Go ahead, Nathaniel. That's cool. Yeah. You know, it's just to say, I think a lot of these phrases, if, if you just kind of follow them through to their logical conclusion would help a lot, right?

47:12

I mean, if this were true, it would mean that everyone can handle everything that they get all the time without any help, which just obviously everyone knows that's not the case.

47:22

And if that were the case and there's absolutely zero reason for me to cast my cares on Christ, because no care is going to be too much for me.

47:30

Absolutely. And so now you have a man centric theology here, right? Yeah. I think there's a really important prepositional phrase that's missing.

47:37

God doesn't give you more than you can handle in his strength, in his strength.

47:43

You will. I mean, if it's you and God versus the world, you're good. Right. In his strength, you'll never have more than you can handle, but without that, that descriptor right there, you're in trouble.

47:54

What Eve said is actually such an important point. I I'd heard that a lot myself, but in the beginning of my podcast, so this is a few years ago,

48:04

I received a just really sad email from a woman and this woman, and I could relate to this because I dealt with loss of many people close to me and, and illness and not knowing if I would live and things like that all at the same time.

48:26

And she was in a situation, a severely handicapped child and struggling marriage and financial woes and all of this together.

48:37

And she said, and people always say to me, God won't give you more than you can handle, but I have more than I can handle.

48:46

And it was discouraging for her. Yeah. I'm sure Aaron being a counselor understands this, but I mean,

48:53

I sit and counsel folks, you know, as, as, you know, a pastor in a church and I'll tell you, son, you know, there's people that come in, especially when they come in from an unsaved background and just years of mess, and then they get saved.

49:08

And for some, that mess becomes much greater because now they have their whole family against them. And I mean,

49:14

I, I just counsel some people. I'm like, I can't imagine living that way. You know, I just, it's like, for me,

49:22

I couldn't even conceive it. It's there's, there's just some people are dealing with so much. Some of the most hope giving truth you can ever give to someone in that situation is listen, you can't do this on your own.

49:35

And then you follow that up with, you need Christ, you need the body, you need, you know, and when, and when they realize that that's, that's not mine to have to work through on my own.

49:48

Oh man. It's the floodgates of hope is it's amazing. You know, Andrew, you said something, and I think it's, it's worth zeroing in a little bit.

49:57

You said, I can't imagine going through all of that. And this is something I'm sure.

50:02

Anybody here who's been through a really difficult suffering situation, like my best friend lost a child.

50:08

And then within six months, her husband had a serious cancer, you know, things like that.

50:14

And people would say, Oh, I could, I could never deal with what you're dealing with. I deal with nausea 24 seven in my life and pain.

50:23

And people will say, Oh, I could never deal with that. And I say, I can't deal with it either. There is something too, that when, when we encounter various trials, the

50:35

Lord is with us. So picturing, I don't think I could ever go through cancer or I don't think

50:42

I could go through marriage struggles or a rebellious child or, you know, just fill in the blank, all the different trials and suffering and, and, and yet the

50:53

Lord in that, you know, when I think kind of what Aaron was talking about, you know, the, the

51:00

Lord does, he, he comes and there's times where you think, Lord, I don't know how I did it, but I know that you were with me as I went through this trial.

51:11

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that one of the things that we have to remember, we're kind of talking with suffering and struggles and temptations trials.

51:21

The thing that always gets me is when you're, you're going through something really difficult and someone says, I know how you feel.

51:28

No, you don't. I mean, even if you went through this exact same thing that I've gone through, you don't know how

51:33

I feel because you're different than me, right? We all suffer alone. We all suffer different from everyone else.

51:39

And so we could like, it's okay to say, I've been through something similar, but you really don't know how someone else's is going through something.

51:49

Let's, let's move on to the next one that we have in the. Real quick. I just wanted to tack on to Aaron's comment.

51:59

Scripture does tell us that we suffer specifically to be drawn to Christ. And I wanted to pull out

52:08

Romans Romans five, three through five. We rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character and character produces hope and hope does not put us to shame because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the

52:25

Holy spirit who has been given to us. And so everything we suffer is meant to draw us to God.

52:34

Yeah, that's true. All right. So the next one, and you know, actually with, with that, with what you said,

52:42

Tim, R .C. Sproul has a book on suffering. And I think if I remember correctly, he had like either a chapter or section, he talks about a vocation of suffering appeal that actually

52:54

God has given this as a vocation for people, not something anyone ever asked for, but, but some, some people glorify

53:01

God the most in, in their suffering. I'll probably get myself in trouble later for, for doing this, but I'll say that, you know,

53:11

Colleen, is that for me? I mean, I, I know what she goes through you listen to theology gals and you wouldn't know the struggle she has, you know, you listen to, so you want to be a podcast, right?

53:22

I can hear a change in her voice before we start recording. And then when we're recording, she, she will, you know, you won't hear the struggle.

53:32

And it's amazing to me every time I record with her, you know, because I know that there's the struggle is constant.

53:38

And so it, it does, it actually encourages my faith to say,

53:43

I need to, I need to be more, I need to be closer to Christ, knowing what she's going through. And that's, I think the thing that people who struggle don't think about how someone else who's, who isn't having as great of a struggle, sees them struggling and moving forward and says,

53:59

Oh, you know, it encourages them to do, to do the same. So we will actually with this next one, we'll mention

54:08

R .C. Sproul again. The next one, next phrase is God would never send anyone to hell.

54:14

And so before we do that, why don't we, why don't we hear directly from a Presbyterian Colleen would like that.

54:19

We'll hear from a press. Well, he was a Presbyterian on earth. I think he's Baptist now. Pretty sure he's a 1689 or now.

54:27

Yeah. Yeah, I don't think so. But let's listen to R .C.

54:34

Sproul. If God is slow to anger and patient, excuse me, since God is slow to anger, we're always learning.

54:50

Since God is slow to anger and patient, then why when man first sinned, was his wrath and punishment so severe and long lasting?

55:04

Timeout. Didn't we just have that question a second ago?

55:11

We did. Yeah. It's a little nuance. That God's punishment for Adam was so severe this creature from the dirt defied the everlasting

55:29

Holy God. After that, God had said, the day that you shall eat of it, you shall surely die.

55:39

And instead of dying Thanatos that day, he lived another day and was clothed in his nakedness by pure grace and had the consequences of a curse supplied for quite some time.

56:02

But the worst curse would come upon the one who seduced him, whose head would be crushed by the seed of the woman.

56:11

And the punishment was too severe? What's wrong with you people?

56:17

I'm serious. I mean, this is what's wrong with the Christian church today. We don't know who

56:23

God is and we don't know who we are. Well, it sounds like there's an introduction to a podcast there.

56:33

Some people have put that as their intro for their podcast. I wonder who. So do you think that God would never send anyone to hell?

56:47

You know, I think A .W. Pink in his book,

56:52

The Attributes of God, says that if you do a concordance study, there are more scripture references to hell, anger, fury, and the wrath of God than there are his love and tenderness.

57:08

Well, that's true. And actually, people will sometimes say there's more references to hell than heaven.

57:19

There's more references about money than heaven and hell combined. But do you know what in the

57:24

New Testament is more than money, heaven and hell combined? Hypocrisy. It's actually more often.

57:33

I think it's interesting about this one is that, I mean, for me anyway, with all the cliches we're talking about, this is the one that just,

57:41

I had a professor back in seminary. He said, you know, you need to go to Walmart, buy a white t -shirt and a black magic marker, and you need to write on the t -shirt.

57:51

I don't read my Bible. Because this one to me strikes me like someone who says this clearly hasn't picked up the scriptures, like all the other ones in a way you can kind of like understand maybe how people came to that.

58:04

But this one is so clear. I've never met somebody who claims to be a Christian who's ever said this.

58:09

And I'm curious, have you guys ever met people who claim to be Christians who have said this? Well, claim to be

58:14

Christian? Yeah. You just claim to be Christian. Yeah. I have met some on the streets.

58:20

I mean, and the best, the best t -shirt I saw actually, I saw a guy wearing a t -shirt went out evangelizing and it said, you know, you want to spend two hours arguing about a

58:31

God that you don't know and a book you've never read. It's like,

58:37

I need that t -shirt. But yeah, I know. But I think, I think this does come more often from people that are unbelievers.

58:44

Yeah. And this is a challenge, say, well, I'm good enough, right? Isn't it? I mean, that's the underlying,

58:49

I think, message of it is I'm good enough without repentance. I'm good enough.

58:55

I don't need what Christ did on the cross, which shows in my mind, what this really does is this shows a lack of understanding of our sinfulness.

59:05

And it, it also shows a lack of understanding of who God is and why he came.

59:12

Why he, why did he allow sin? Romans nine provides an answer for this. It says in Romans 9, 14, what shall

59:22

I say then? Is there, is there no injustice with God? Is there, may it never be.

59:28

For this reason, Moses said, I, I shall have mercy on whom I shall have mercy.

59:33

And I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but God who has mercy for scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose,

59:48

I raised you up to demonstrate my power in you, that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole world so that his mercy, whom he, that, so that, so that he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires.

01:00:07

You will say to me then, why does he still find fault? Who for who can resist his will on the contrary?

01:00:15

Who are you? Oh man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder.

01:00:22

Why have you made me like this? Or does it not say that the Potter has the right to do with the clay to make from the same lump of vessel of honor and another, a vessel of common use for what if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and make known his or make his power known in Doris with much patient vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

01:00:52

And he also to make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory.

01:01:02

And this is the thing I think you end up seeing is why did God allow sin? Yes, he's going to send people to hell, but even in that it, it displays his attributes.

01:01:12

You see his justice, his holiness, you actually see his goodness and the reality.

01:01:17

And this is the thing I say to people when I evangelize on the streets is the, that I, they use this and say, well, God wouldn't send anyone to hell.

01:01:24

And I'll go really. So you'd really want to be in heaven where you're going to sing God's praises and sing glory to God all day long.

01:01:31

That's where you want to be. And they'll be like, no. So see, you actually want hell, you know, would it be also people annihilationist that say this?

01:01:42

Because I, I was just thinking when you're reading that passage, Andrew, a guy I ran into in a

01:01:47

Facebook Facebook group years ago and he had, so he basically believed, he tried to explain it to me that, that you know, that those not in Christ were thrown in to the lake of fire and ceased to exist.

01:02:05

And so, and he kind of had the, you know, that, well, God wouldn't send people to eternal an eternal hell.

01:02:14

That is true. And that's something I was going to mention is that it's not just unbelievers or people who, you know, profess to be

01:02:23

Christian, but don't read their Bibles or whatever. It's professing Christians that will arrive at that.

01:02:29

Joseph Parker in the 1800s, John Stott towards the end of his life.

01:02:37

I think even A .T. Robertson might have some kind of comment like that. C .S. Lewis kind of.

01:02:42

I have a John Stott story about that actually. Rod Rosenblatt, Rob Bell told me, and he said that he was talking to John Stott about this after he decided there was no hell.

01:02:57

And he said, you know, John, I'm going to say this in rod. I can't really mimic him, but you know,

01:03:03

John, there's probably no other doctrine that Christians would like to get rid of like they would the doctrine of hell.

01:03:10

Nobody likes the thought of their, their loved ones, you know, going to hell and so on, but you can't get away from the text.

01:03:19

It's clear in scripture. The one we talked about earlier to hate the sin, love the center.

01:03:31

People almost feel like they need to give God an excuse, right? For, for why he's, why he's loving and why he's not really this big angry

01:03:39

God in the sky. And of course, RC Sproul, I think hit the nail on the head. People don't understand who

01:03:45

God is. And they also don't understand who man is. The reality is if God didn't send people to hell, he would not be loving, right?

01:03:54

That's a hard statement to hear for a lot of folks, but I mean, he's, he's a just God. He punishes the wicked and, and that's part of his loving nature to do that.

01:04:04

It's his mercy and his grace that he saves any of us, right? I mean, we, unless you're into Pelagian thought, which is what the streams out of the idea that men is inherently good.

01:04:15

And so therefore, how could a loving God send any good man to hell? And of course there is none good, right?

01:04:21

We're told that, but Romans three or Romans four, I forget now. There's no one good.

01:04:27

There's no one righteous. But yeah, I mean, this comes from the fact that we don't, we don't know who

01:04:32

God is and we don't know who we are in relation to a Holy God. Exactly the reason it's when people say,

01:04:39

Hey, you, I remember someone gave me Don Piper's book, you know, 20 minutes or 90 minutes in heaven.

01:04:44

And they're like, do you think this really happened? I said, well, let me read the book. And I read the book and I said, no. And he's like, why?

01:04:50

I said, because anybody who goes to heaven or, or goes to hell, either one of the cases, everyone seems to go to heaven.

01:04:58

If you go to heaven, you're going to recognize when you get back, what a wicked sinner you are.

01:05:05

And you're going to be preaching the gospel, not running around trying to help people that had the same medical device that you had.

01:05:13

Like that was his focus in trying to encourage them. I'm like, if you were really in heaven, you would realize how wicked you are when you got back.

01:05:22

Well, God must send people to hell because he is Holy. And a lot of people want to not diminish, but they want to forget that God is

01:05:33

Holy because when God is Holy, when we understand that God is Holy, that means he is completely other than, and a lot of people want to want big brother,

01:05:44

God, they want him just a little bit higher than us so that we can try to obtain to where he is. And because I would never do this, therefore he would never do this.

01:05:53

So we would people create. Yeah. Yeah. People create a God in their own image that they will serve.

01:05:59

And this God would never send people to hell. The problem is the God of the Bible, the God of scripture is one that is

01:06:05

Holy. And because he is Holy, he must hate sin. He must punish sin.

01:06:11

And that's, that stems from his justice. It, the, the crime deserves the penalty.

01:06:18

Therefore hell must exist because sin must be punished. Hell must exist because God is

01:06:25

Holy and the sinner must receive the just punishment for his sin against a

01:06:31

Holy God. That's why when people say to me, well, my God would never send anyone to hell. I say,

01:06:36

I agree. The problem is your God doesn't exist. Well, I think the unit, the universalist likes to say, you know, that, you know, as long as you're pursuing some deity or higher state or whatever else that we're all going to, they're all going to make it right.

01:06:51

And they like to think that because they like to think that all humanity, or at least the vast majority of them are, you know, working toward the divine.

01:07:01

Okay. So, you know, God's not going to send any of those people to hell. But going back to what Andrew said from reading

01:07:07

Romans chapter nine, and I don't want to get into a, necessarily a free will versus election debate right now, but I used to work at a boy's home and I told the guys,

01:07:17

I'm, I'm a really nice guy. If you want demerits, just break these rules and I will give you demerits.

01:07:24

I'm not trying to keep them from you. I'm, I'm cool like that. Right. What Andrew said was a hundred percent.

01:07:30

Right. He talked to that guy, you know, do you want to be praising God for all eternity? And the guy was honest. He said, no, I don't.

01:07:36

I don't want that. And so in a way, yes, God is going to send us to hell, but who's he going to send to hell?

01:07:43

I say us. That was really terrible. God will send some people to hell, but who's he going to send to hell? He's going to send to hell the people who chose to reject him.

01:07:51

He's going to send to hell the people who said, I want hell. I'm choosing hell because I'm not choosing you.

01:07:57

Right. Well, that goes back to Romans one, right? Oh yeah. For the wrath of God, let's verse verse 18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness.

01:08:09

But I mean, this, this goes into general revelation, the idea that all of creation reveals that there is a

01:08:17

God, but then people man in his unrighteousness suppress that truth.

01:08:23

And then they continue sinning. And what does God do? Hands them over to their sin. He just continually hands them over so that it's that slippery slope.

01:08:32

Once you start down there, not, not only does God just allow you to go down there when he hands you over, he gives you a shove in that direction.

01:08:40

Tim, you had something you were going to say. Have you finished? Stuart actually commented earlier about how it, it diminishes and it, it, people who subscribe to this, what they're doing is they're diminishing the work of Christ on the cross.

01:09:00

And that's of all of the, the ones that we, we discussed or listed out as possible discussions for day.

01:09:10

This is the one that irritates me the most because we can't understand.

01:09:17

We, we can no more understand how truly depraved we are.

01:09:23

Then we can't understand the infinite power of God and the infinite grace and what

01:09:29

Christ did on the cross when he took, not just my sins, but the sins of everybody here in this podcast and everybody listening, anybody who throughout all time, past, present, and future who have sworn to him and it taken him as a savior or their saviors.

01:09:50

He suffered beyond our imagining. And when they, when they say

01:09:57

God would never send anyone to hell, why else would Christ have died? Yeah.

01:10:04

If not to offer us a chance at salvation. Yeah. So let's go ahead,

01:10:13

Daniel, and then we'll move on to the next one. Like when I first was looking at this particular phrase, cause

01:10:20

I know I've heard it with some of the Facebook groups that I'm in, like with like Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Jehovah's witnesses and different Christian dominations.

01:10:29

I've actually seen people use this phrase, but they meant something different by it.

01:10:35

They would, the emphasis would be God would never send anyone to hell. So like even a few days ago, especially with some of the more modern

01:10:43

Roman Catholics, you know, they're not denying hell, but they would say it's not God who sends anyone there.

01:10:50

God doesn't send anyone there. You send yourself there. Now if anyone's heard that where it's like,

01:10:56

God has nothing to do with whether or not you go to hell, you send yourself there.

01:11:02

But of course the scriptures are clear where, you know, Matthew 25, 33, he, he shall set the sheep on his right hand, the goats on his left.

01:11:11

And in Matthew 18 where, you know, verse 35, so likewise shall my heavenly father do also unto you.

01:11:20

If you, oops, from your hearts, forgive, not everyone is a brother is trespassed. So it's clearly showing the father actually sending people to hell.

01:11:31

We can also talk about the fig tree there too. Every branch that doesn't bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

01:11:39

Well, who cuts the branches down and who throws them into the fire? They don't cut themselves down.

01:11:46

Yeah. Erickson makes the point that God basically gives people exactly what they wanted in the end, you know, in that regard.

01:11:53

I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but God, yes, God sends them, but ultimately they didn't want anything to do with him their whole lives.

01:12:01

And so the finality of that is that's exactly what they get.

01:12:07

Yeah. Well, let's look at some that we actually find in scripture, but I don't think that's really what scripture meant to say.

01:12:17

The way people use this one, judge not least you be judged, or they usually just say, judge not.

01:12:23

And they usually say that when they're trying to say that you're wrong, which

01:12:29

I could be mistaken. When you say someone else is wrong, isn't that a, what's the word?

01:12:35

Judgment. Yeah. Thank you. That's one of my favorite things to do is go, well, why are you judging me for judging?

01:12:43

They're saying just like, don't judge me. That's what they're saying. I can judge you.

01:12:50

You just can't judge me. And they can, they conveniently forget the verse.

01:12:56

I believe it's in John. It might be later in Matthew, but I think it's in John where he says when you judge, judge with righteous judgment.

01:13:04

John 7, 24, which I was going to bring up. And the interesting thing with that, it says, do not judge according to appearance, but judge with a righteous judgment.

01:13:14

Now, the interesting thing with that is the word judge there both times is an imperative in the

01:13:20

Greek. It's command. You're commanded not to judge according to appearance and then commanded by Christ.

01:13:28

So for those people that only believe in the red lettering, in the red letters, Christ is commanding you to judge with a righteous judgment.

01:13:38

And the judgment is a definitive article there, by the way. So that means that it's the judgment.

01:13:44

And that mentioned this is going back to the exact same thing that we were talking about with the love hate thing. We have to define these terms the way.

01:13:53

Julie Herman has got to be right. And the reality is that that particular word judge can mean a number of different things.

01:14:00

And I have to look at, because the exact same Greek word that we're commanded not to judge is the exact same

01:14:08

Greek word where, you know, Jesus himself said to Simon, you have judged correctly.

01:14:14

So understanding that, you know, it can mean simply distinguishing between two things.

01:14:19

That's what we call this right. Also to condemn.

01:14:25

And when God, when God says, don't judge, the clear understanding is you do not condemn.

01:14:31

It's not your job to do that. But when we're told to be discerning, we're told to, even like you said, Andrew, to judge.

01:14:37

He's not telling him that time to be able to make a distinction, to be able to see the difference between something.

01:14:46

Yeah. Daniel, you were going to say something. Oh yeah. I was just going to bring up, you know, in the same gospel account, whoever uses

01:14:54

Matthew seven, one out of context probably has not read Matthew chapter 23 with the woes upon the scribes and Pharisees, you know, like you whited sepulchers.

01:15:05

It's like, okay. The same per Jesus who said this obviously judged people pretty harshly there.

01:15:13

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, I think the, the point is, you know, and as Aaron was saying, again, a lot of this is going to come down to interpretation and context and context, right?

01:15:25

Because if you look at Matthew seven, one, do not judge so that you will not be judged, but then keep reading for in the way you will judge, you will be judged.

01:15:40

And by the standard of measure, it will be measured back to you. Why do you take the spec?

01:15:47

Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye and do not notice the log in your own eye?

01:15:54

Or how can you say to your brother, let me take the speck out of your eye and behold, there's a log in your own eye.

01:16:00

You hypocrite. Yeah. First take the log out of your eye and then you'll clearly see the speck in your brother's eye.

01:16:09

Do not give what is Holy to dogs. Do not throw your pearls before swine. They will trample it underfoot and turn and tear you to pieces.

01:16:17

So the context is not that you shouldn't be judging ever. It's the standard by which you judge is the issue.

01:16:27

And that's what you see every time. There's not a single verse that tells you not to judge. It says not to judge by an unjust standard.

01:16:35

And I think we realize that most people that bring this up are really just, they know better.

01:16:40

Most people there, they're just really saying I want to do what I want to do. And you have the right to question it is the reality.

01:16:49

I think for the great majority of, of the people who bring this. Yeah. I think it goes back to that.

01:16:58

Hate the sin, love the center. It's like people don't want to, they don't want you to be judging them based on their sin.

01:17:05

And so they they're trying to force you to not judge them basically.

01:17:11

And so they want you to just be the loving Christian. Which is even more interesting when you have people that identify themselves by their sin.

01:17:20

I'm a homosexual Christian, but don't judge me. Or, or they, they they'll say it this way.

01:17:27

Only God can judge me to, to which I respond. He has, I'm just telling you what he said.

01:17:32

Yeah, exactly. So all of those nineties rappers who said only God can judge me, they, they were wrong. We'll see.

01:17:40

And, and, but that's what you were right. He's already done it. Oh, good point. Good point. But that's what it's the context of John seven 24.

01:17:48

It's that you judge by the word of God. Like Drew was saying, all I'm doing is telling you what God said. I should judge you.

01:17:54

In fact, I forget where it is in, in Corinthians, but there, Paul says that we are to judge other

01:18:00

Christians. Right. Right. Well, even in going back to first Corinthians five, when, with the sin that was committed of sexual immorality in the church, what does he say early in chapter five?

01:18:11

He says, I have already judged this person. Yeah. Yeah. Paul says that. Yeah. Yeah.

01:18:18

Here's what I do when I'm on the streets. I do this all the time. Like, you know, be in New York and union square and I'll get someone that yells at me.

01:18:24

Don't judge. I've I've done plenty of things like drew. Like you said, I don't say, well, why are you judging me?

01:18:30

I'll tell him you should stop it. If you think it's wrong, things like that. But every once in a while, if I'm cause

01:18:36

I do an open air, you want to get a crowd. I mean, part of it is you want to be able to preach too. Right. And so there's every once in a while,

01:18:43

I'll do this where I'll have someone that says not to judge and I'll go, I think there's nothing wrong with judging.

01:18:49

I'm married. And then I go silent for a little bit till everyone's like, huh? I just, there were a lot of women that were inappropriate for me to marry.

01:18:58

And one that was appropriate to marry. Yeah. I judged and married her. I make judgments all the time.

01:19:04

And so do you, you know, and it just, Andrew Andrew, it's interesting.

01:19:09

You went to that passage in Matthew seven, right? But verse six, which you read now, it doesn't use the word judge

01:19:15

English or, or, or Greek, but it says, do not give what is Holy to dogs. Well, how am I supposed to know which ones of the dogs do not throw your pearls before swine?

01:19:23

How am I supposed to know their swine? I have to make a judgment or how do you know what's

01:19:29

Holy? You've got to make a judgment. Yeah. Yeah. We, we judge all the time.

01:19:35

Some of us judge if we think we can make it through the yellow light and we miss it, but I'm sure no, no one here, no one here.

01:19:41

All right. Toppings to put on a pizza and we miss it. Don't judge me for my people.

01:19:47

You haven't tried it. And actually the only reason I did, I did that for Chris on holds, who isn't here.

01:19:55

If you listen to voice of reason radio, they will talk about like the abomination that pineapple and shrimp is on a pizza.

01:20:03

So we were making a homemade pizza. We liked mushroom and onion, but we made half pineapple and shrimp just for Chris.

01:20:12

And I got to tell you something. I was going to comment on this on my own podcast, but I put that picture up.

01:20:19

I have gotten more comments on a stupid picture of pizza. Anything theological, anything political, like the pizza really got,

01:20:30

I mean, really there are some people that have an issue with having your pepper or a pineapple and a shrimp on a pizza.

01:20:36

Come on. Not only that. So, so, so my issue wasn't even the pineapple, even though I do believe it doesn't belong on, on pizza.

01:20:43

It was the mushrooms because fungus doesn't belong anywhere on anything I want to eat.

01:20:49

What would it, would it count if the shrimp wasn't cooked and then it would be like, okay, you know, I like sushi. I should try that. Sushi pizza.

01:20:54

I, you know, I'll allow that. I did. I do know there's a restaurant I go to that they have an appetizer, sushi pizza, and it's not really pizza.

01:21:01

It's just, it's, you know, like bread with a whole bunch of sushi on it. I like sushi. Yeah. Yeah.

01:21:07

All right. So let's move to the other one. Cause this one is going to, so, you know, this one is, you know,

01:21:14

I put it, we have it here as God is sovereign or, and this is where we see it really in scripture, all things work together for good.

01:21:22

So we see that one in scripture, all things do work together for good. You know, the context of that,

01:21:30

I don't think is what many people think, but so Drew, you brought it up this way as God is sovereign.

01:21:37

What do you mean by that? Yeah, so there's, whenever people have trials or troubles, you know, say they go to a pastor, one of the reformed persuasion, a lot of times these pastors will just reply with, well,

01:21:54

God is sovereign, right? Well, really that's not helping anyone. That's not ministering to anyone, just spouting that God is sovereign.

01:22:04

But I find it very interesting that the same people that say that when something like COVID comes and shuts down the economy, and they're afraid that tithes aren't gonna come in and people aren't gonna tithe and take care of their pastors and stuff.

01:22:20

They'll accept a loan from Caesar while reject, and not even fall on the fact that God is sovereign and God's gonna see them through.

01:22:30

I find that very, very fascinating. Well, this is what I've always said. There is a difference between saying you believe in God's sovereignty and actually believing in God's sovereignty.

01:22:42

What if that loan was God's sovereign provision? Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's also gonna be his sovereign provision when it comes to time to pay it back.

01:22:52

And they say, we know you will cancel that loan as long as you don't preach on this subject or that subject.

01:23:00

Yeah, I see that coming. But we do have people - You guys know that God is only sovereign for other people, right? That's why.

01:23:08

So let's look at Romans 8, 28. And we all know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love

01:23:17

God, to those who are according to his purpose. Now, so many people will read that.

01:23:25

And they'll leave off the last part. Well, that is true. But they also leave out the context, which is talking about in verse 26, in the same way the spirit also helps us in our weakness.

01:23:40

For we do not know how to pray as we should, but the spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

01:23:49

And he searches the hearts and knows what the mind of the spirit is, because he intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

01:24:00

And we all know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love

01:24:06

God, to those who are called according to his purpose. See, it's not just everything is gonna work together for good, but how people use it.

01:24:16

Like something goes bad and it's like, oh, it's gonna work together for good. No, that's when you're struggling.

01:24:23

I don't know if any of you have gotten to the point where you've been in a spiritual kind of depression to the point where you can't even pray.

01:24:30

You're so weak that you can't pray. That's what it's speaking of. Being in that state, this is an issue of suffering, not just, you know.

01:24:40

So was James 1. James 1 was very similar. You know, count it all joy when these trials and temptations come into your life because God is using it for a purpose.

01:24:50

But the entire first chapter of James assumes that we are cooperating, right?

01:24:55

Working together with him in that. And what James says is that it's there to mature us.

01:25:02

It's there to help us to grow in steadfastness, which is exactly what verse 29 of Romans 8 said.

01:25:09

What is this working together for good? Well, so that those whom he foreknew and predestined will become conformed to the image of his son.

01:25:18

I'm not gonna be conformed to the image of his son if I'm not working in cooperation with him.

01:25:25

If I'm just all ticked off about what God is doing, if I'm all depressed, if I'm all whatever, then that's not going to result in my maturation.

01:25:34

That's gonna result in my sin. Yeah, I remember, Drew, with what you were saying,

01:25:41

I had this pastor that I knew. He had, he bought a car. Now, granted,

01:25:47

I'm just gonna upfront, I'm Jewish, so this isn't a rip on Jewish. It's just something that Jewish people know.

01:25:54

They rip people off sometimes. So this guy, this pastor had bought a car off this

01:26:01

Jewish guy, and he had told me he was afraid the guy was gonna rip him off. And he's like, he got such a great deal.

01:26:09

The guy had to fix something on it, and the guy was so, you know, he was there for two hours while he fixed it to make sure it was running really good for him, and he got this great deal, and he said to me, he goes,

01:26:20

I just, I'm really blessed by God, meaning that because he got a good deal on the car, and I turned and said, guess what?

01:26:27

If the car's a lemon, you're still blessed by God. Amen. Turned out it was a lemon.

01:26:34

He did get ripped off. It just took two weeks to figure that out. The thing is that we have this mindset a lot of times as if when things go our way, that's

01:26:46

God's goodness in our life. Right. You know what? That suffering, that temptation, that trial, that also is

01:26:53

God's goodness in your life. We don't think about that. But I think that a lot of this that we're talking about is people have a worldly perspective, not a biblical perspective.

01:27:06

I think almost every one of these we could probably put in that category. Yeah, I think every one of these absolutely fall in that category.

01:27:12

You know, we have so let the world define for us how we think, how we view things, and even how we approach scripture.

01:27:23

And that just creates a lot of issues because the world doesn't get to define doctrine, theology, biblical definitions.

01:27:30

God's defined those things, and we have to constantly say, what does the scripture say?

01:27:35

What does it mean? What's the context? And not let the world define those things for us. You know, some issues would have been so much easier to argue had we not done that.

01:27:48

I mean, think about like the abortion issue or the homosexual issue, same -sex marriage. You know, when they were looking to do same -sex marriage in New Jersey.

01:27:57

Union, no such thing as same -sex marriage. Yeah, well, what they call marriage, right? That's the point, yeah. Yeah, so I went down to the, you know, they had an open hearing.

01:28:07

So I got up and I asked them all, I said, do you believe in a separation of church and state? And one after another, they all said they believe in it.

01:28:14

And I said, okay, marriage is a church issue. If you truly believe in a separation of church and state, you'd stay out of our issue.

01:28:23

Of course, they didn't, right? Because they really don't believe in a separation of church and state. They only believe in a separation of church.

01:28:29

Kind of like Twitter, right? Nathaniel still wants to be on there. I'm on Parler, okay? That's where all the

01:28:35

Christians moved, Nathaniel. Come on over and join. But let's go to the next one, which again,

01:28:41

I think we're gonna have, again, some similar things like we just said.

01:28:47

This is one where it's the world's definition that is muddying this up. Scripture does say,

01:28:53

God is love. What else does it say God is? It's also wrath, but yeah, there you go.

01:29:01

Yeah, I think the answer is, but that's not all he is. Yeah, God is love. Exactly. Yeah, there's a whole assortment of attributes that he is.

01:29:12

We can't just - He's not separate from any one of them. It's not like you could just say he's just love and not wrath.

01:29:17

Right, right. And this is, I'm doing a thing in a couple of weeks that where I'm touching on some of the attributes of God.

01:29:27

And the first one I'm talking about is the simplicity of God. The fact that God is not a group of attributes that make him up, what

01:29:37

God has, he is, right? So to say it simply, that's what we would say the simplicity of God is.

01:29:44

It's every attribute that God has, he is 100 % that attribute. So God is love, absolutely.

01:29:51

And we love that God is love, but God is also wrath.

01:29:58

And he has a wrath that he pours out. But the love part only makes sense and is actually more magnified under the backdrop of his wrath.

01:30:12

Yeah, Drew, I actually, back about a year ago, I had an episode of Truthspresso kind of talking about just that, the attributes of God and how, like I've actually heard theologians say that, they'll tear

01:30:29

God's attributes and say, love is the greatest attribute of God, which all of God's attributes are equal and perfect.

01:30:38

As for God, his ways or his judgments are perfect. And so how can his judgments be perfect or complete if any one attribute excels over the others?

01:30:50

And I've heard people say like, well, God's greatest attribute is love because the Bible says he is love.

01:30:57

It never says he is anything else other than love. But I point out Hebrews 12, 29, that says for our

01:31:04

God is a consuming fire in referring to judgment. So there you go. There's the balance there.

01:31:11

Yeah, yeah. To diminish any other part of God's attributes is to diminish

01:31:16

God's nature. That's right. You know, and I think one of the things that you end up seeing with this is again, it's how are they defining love?

01:31:25

They're defining love as God should spoil me. God should give me everything I want. When I'm on the street,

01:31:30

I refer to this as the false gospel of God is love because it's God is gonna save me because I'm so wonderful.

01:31:38

He should love me. You know, he's got a wonderful plan for my life. Don't you know who

01:31:43

I am? God's lucky to have me. I mean, the thing that you end up seeing there is this definition is one of selfishness, that of God should spoil me.

01:31:53

But when we look at the context, right? So this phrase, God is love comes from 1 John 4, 8, right?

01:32:00

But let's look at the context again. Harmonetics, you interpret in context. Beloved, let us love one another for love is from God.

01:32:12

And everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know

01:32:22

God for God is love. Am I the only one who can't hear that without singing it?

01:32:28

Yeah, I know I sing it too. Oh, I didn't know it's a song, sorry. We'll have to tell

01:32:34

Colleen, you were singing. It's a certain generation that we were raised on a certain group.

01:32:40

Okay, Eve, go for it. No, no, no, no, no. No. But let me just finish with that real quick though is the point being is what you end up seeing here is that this is in the context when it says

01:32:54

God is love. It's not just saying that outside of any context, the context is that if you don't love one another, then you don't know

01:33:04

God because God is love. The whole point of it is saying, when you sit there and you're gonna promote your selfishness, which is how people use this

01:33:12

God is love phrase, they use it in the exact way that John is condemning in 1

01:33:18

John. I mean, that's the irony. They don't even understand the context of the way they're using it shows that they don't love and therefore they don't know

01:33:27

God. I wonder if it would have been better for us from a biblical standpoint, if the original

01:33:33

Greek had been translated into the more specific love that he's speaking of because love is a more encompassing language in English where Greek actually had different words for the different types of love.

01:33:48

And in English, we don't really differentiate between sexual love and friendly love and worship love.

01:33:56

It's very easy for me to be able to tell you what it is in the Greek for a very simple reason, because I use logos and in my

01:34:04

Bible, anywhere where the word agape is, it's underlined automatically for me. So I could tell you without even having to look up the

01:34:11

Greek that this is the word agape in this passage each time. I have a question, and this is not so much like whether or not we should, because obviously we should use the phrase that God is love and you guys are right.

01:34:24

It's all about definitions, right? But here's my question, going back to something that Daniel said earlier.

01:34:31

Yes, the Bible says God is God. It says, God is the

01:34:36

Lord, so on and so forth. In Hebrews, it does say that he is a consuming fire, but this is just me, and I'd love it if someone could explain it.

01:34:45

I think it's interesting that the Bible says that God is holy, he's just, he's righteous, he's gracious, but this passage, and then also 1

01:34:51

John 4, 16, doesn't say that God is loving. All of those other ones are predicate adjectives in the

01:34:58

English, right? All the predicate nominatives, all the predicate nouns in English are, he's a consuming, he's a something, or he's the something.

01:35:07

But this is, I think, as far as I know, when the only ones in the scripture where it actually says God is agape,

01:35:14

Greek noun, he is this noun, that strikes me as interesting that this is so unique in all of the descriptions, all the titles of God, this is so incredibly unique that this, what we consider to be an attribute of God, it's saying that God equals this attribute.

01:35:32

He's not just holy, he's not just righteous, he is love. What do you guys think about that?

01:35:39

What does that mean to us? Well, I mean, it is kind of interesting here for a couple of reasons as I look this up, because first off, just to really get people, where it says

01:35:54

God is love, that's in a feminine form. So that might really strike people. Because it may go against the way they're thinking it.

01:36:05

I think what you see here is that this is, God is the source of love, and that's the context with this, right?

01:36:13

When we look at the context here, it is saying that we love one another, that we should be loving one another, that we can love because we're born of God, and that because we love, we know

01:36:26

God, but the one who does not love doesn't know God, why? Because God is the source of love.

01:36:33

And I think that in this context, I don't take this as saying as much it is an attribute of God, which it is, as much as God is the source of love.

01:36:47

And when you know him, you would have agape love, because he is agape love.

01:36:55

He's the source of the agape love, right? We know what love is because God is the source of that.

01:37:01

Just like we know what justice is because God is the source of that. We have life because God is the source of that.

01:37:07

That's different than the fact that God is just as a perfection or attribute. So I think the context here is more not trying to say so much as God is the, as far as the attribute of God, as much as it is the source of God or the source of love is

01:37:25

God. Good thought. That's really what the whole book of 1

01:37:32

John is what? It's how we as believers are supposed to live and how we are supposed to treat one another.

01:37:39

So, but how do we do that? Back to Andrew's point. How do we do that? Because God is the source of how we are to do all those things.

01:37:50

Yeah, I was going to say, as Andrew mentioned, when he read the verses, verse eight says,

01:37:55

God is love, verse seven right before it says, love is of God, you know, denotes God as the source.

01:38:01

So I think that's the emphasis there. Yeah, because I mean, if you go on with nine, by this, the love of God is manifested in us that God has sent us, has sent his only begotten son into the world so that we might live through him.

01:38:23

In this is love that not that we loved

01:38:28

God, but that he loved us and sent his son to the propitiation of our sins.

01:38:36

So let's move on to the next one, which again deals with the issue of love. This again is in scripture, but I don't think it means what people think it means.

01:38:47

Love your neighbor. Boy, do we hear this one a lot these days, whether you want to, we hear this one a lot when it comes to whether you're going to wear masks in church or not, whether you're going to obey lockdowns or not, you know, whether you're going to accept, you know, tyrants telling us that we can't have church services.

01:39:12

Yeah, love your neighbor by doing what he wants you to do is what that phrase means in most cases.

01:39:18

It's the positive version of the don't judge me. You know, it's judge not, instead just love me,

01:39:24

AKA tolerate me, accept me as I am. Yeah, I mean, it's become a big manipulative tool for big

01:39:31

Eva for sure, right? I want to manipulate you into doing something. And so I'm going to twist this scripture phrase so that you feel bad if you don't want to do what

01:39:41

I think you should be doing. Yeah, and love your neighbor except for your neighbor in the womb.

01:39:52

Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, well, so this is, I mean, the context for this is also the sermon on the

01:39:59

Mount, just like we were seeing earlier with Matthew 7. You've heard it said, you've heard it said, you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say unto you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

01:40:15

So this isn't just, the context here is saying that you should be doing more than just saying that you're loving your neighbor, right?

01:40:25

The other context that you're going to have this is in the two of the great commandments.

01:40:30

But for Drew's sake, since Drew is referencing the holiness earlier, he was doing that just because, you know, he's part of the

01:40:36

Cruciform Ministries and, you know, they had this conference on holiness. But so for Drew's sake,

01:40:42

Drew, do you know where love your neighbor first appears in scripture and only time in the

01:40:48

Old Testament? What book might that be? It's in Leviticus. You better have gotten that one right. Okay, good.

01:40:53

So I have, I've taught at a youth group on homosexuality.

01:41:01

And one of the objections that is always brought up is, well, you just need to love your neighbor.

01:41:07

Jesus said, you need to love your neighbor. And I said, well, yeah, he says that in Leviticus also where he says homosexuality is an abomination.

01:41:14

So which one do you want? You have to take both of them, I'm sorry. Well, you can go to Romans 13, 10, right?

01:41:21

It says, and it defines love in some way there. Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Is it loving to your neighbor to perpetuate a lie?

01:41:29

No. Loving to your neighbor to murder them in the case of preborn children? No. Is it loving to your neighbor to keep the gospel, that which has the power to save them from them?

01:41:43

No. And so again, it's another phrase where we come back to biblical definitions, how does

01:41:49

Scripture define love? Because what love is not, it is giving into kind of every whim and fancy of your neighbor.

01:42:00

That's right. Your neighbor doesn't want to hear about Jesus. So if you don't talk to him about Jesus, you're loving. No, actually contrary.

01:42:07

If your neighbor hates Christ, hates God, and you don't give them the gospel, then you're not being loving.

01:42:14

That's what I wanted to add to your list. You're not loving your neighbor if you enable them in their sin. Absolutely.

01:42:20

That's one of the things that I always come back to is when people want you to just love somebody who is sinning, it's like, if I am friends with an alcoholic,

01:42:31

I'm not going to take them to the bar and buy them drinks. I mean, that might seem like a loving thing to do with a, you know, to go hang out with a friend and pay for their drinks or whatever.

01:42:41

But if they're an alcoholic and it's something they struggle with, that's not something you're going to enable them in doing.

01:42:47

And sinners struggle with sin and you're not going to, and it's not loving to enable them to continue in their sin.

01:42:55

That's why the most loving thing I could do when someone says, and I've had this happen when someone says I'm a homosexual

01:43:01

Christian or a gay Christian, I would say, no, you're not. I mean, you're not a

01:43:08

Christian because you're identifying by your sin. The worst thing I could do is enable them and let them continue to think that they could be identified by their sin and still say they're a

01:43:20

Christian. Well, this phrase is also where we get kind of, or people have added on to this phrase, the idea of, well,

01:43:27

I'm just going to love them to Jesus. The problem is you can't love anyone to Jesus without giving them the gospel.

01:43:34

So if you try to love someone to Jesus apart from giving them the gospel, you will only love them right way to hell.

01:43:42

Well, here's the thing with that, actually, if you think about it, for people who think that they can love someone into the kingdom, then guess what?

01:43:50

It wasn't Christ that they came for, it's you. And therefore they're not in the kingdom.

01:43:56

Right, that's right. Well, they are going to some kingdom, but - I think a big part of this is that we all, intrinsically, every human being, especially anyone who's ever had a child knows this.

01:44:07

If your child's playing out in the street, a semi is barreling down on them. You're not sitting back going, well,

01:44:13

I love my child and I just want them to know that I'm okay with them and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No one's going to do that.

01:44:20

It doesn't matter if the child hates them because of it, doesn't matter if the child is pulled out of the street, kicking and screaming.

01:44:25

It doesn't matter. The parent knows what the most loving thing to do is. Everybody intrinsically knows this.

01:44:32

So sometimes it's not actually the definition of love that's the problem. It's the definition of whether or not what

01:44:39

I'm doing is wrong, whether or not what I'm doing is dangerous. See the child in the street says, why don't you love me?

01:44:46

Because the child doesn't believe that what they're doing is dangerous. So one of the most loving things we could do is help them understand the danger.

01:44:55

I once worked with a guy and he said, why are you always talking to me about Jesus?

01:45:02

And I use the example. He was a high school guy and I said, if your girlfriend had a bomb in her locker, what would you do to keep her from opening it?

01:45:13

And I gave a bunch of different illustrations. Would you try to convince her? If she just got mad at you and try to push past you, would you knock her unconscious and drag her away?

01:45:22

And he said, yeah, I would do whatever it takes. And that's where I just said, dude, you have a bomb in your locker because most people haven't accepted the fact they haven't come to the place where they realize that what they're doing, their lifestyle is going to kill them.

01:45:38

So in a way, yes, they want you to love them, but on the other side, they just don't realize that what they're doing is so dangerous.

01:45:47

Yeah, I mean, one of the things as you're saying that, it's, they're kind of just not wanting to recognize the reality of things.

01:46:01

And we have to explain that. I think of, I don't know if you guys ever saw the video of Penn Jillette, and he actually took this down because so many

01:46:12

Christians were using this and he didn't want that. But there's a video where someone gave him a

01:46:19

Bible and he was so touched. He didn't, he doesn't believe in Christianity. He's a professing atheist, but he was so touched.

01:46:26

And he said, he goes, I've always said that if you really believe that someone is going to help, there is a point where if you see someone where a truck is going to hit him, you're going to tackle them, right?

01:46:38

It is the most loving thing you could do. And he's right. The key is an unbeliever understands what most

01:46:46

Christians don't seem to want to understand. If you truly understand that the person you're speaking to is going to die, and in that very next second, they're going to open their eyes in the rest of eternity in punishment for their wickedness.

01:47:03

If you truly understand that and believe that, you're not going to sit there and go, oh, you know,

01:47:09

God is love, it's all okay. You know, this is the thing when I do open air, I get so many professing believers that come up and say, you're doing it wrong because you're raising your voice.

01:47:21

And so people end up saying this. And the thing is, is that what you end up seeing in it is there's a lot of different ways of dealing with that.

01:47:31

But if you're doing open air, I don't want to get into a debate with a professing believer, right? So what do

01:47:36

I do is I make them actually share the gospel because I'll say, because they usually say it when you're talking to someone and you're telling them they're going to go to hell.

01:47:44

And I never actually say they're going to go to hell. I just let them, I just give the law, let them compare themselves to the law of God and see that they're going to hell.

01:47:52

Be like, that's so, you're doing this wrong. You shouldn't tell people they're going to hell. And I'll go, well, okay, let me ask you a question.

01:47:59

This person says they don't know Jesus Christ. What is going to happen after they die?

01:48:04

And it's funny because you'll see them go, well, they're going to go to hell, you know?

01:48:11

No, I can't hear you. Can you say that louder? Where they're going to go? Well, they're going to go to hell. You really believe that?

01:48:17

Then you should tell them. Cause I believe it and I am telling them. Yeah, I was having a conversation through a guy

01:48:25

I went to high school with. We were having a conversation through Facebook and someone else chimed in and professing atheist said that he was married to a

01:48:38

Christian, said his wife was a Christian and she accepted him for being atheist.

01:48:46

And I went there and I said, I said, either she's not a true believer or she doesn't really love you because she would tell you about Jesus if she did.

01:48:56

And he did not like that. Hmm, yeah, I'm not surprised.

01:49:03

Well, I mean, you know, we've got a bunch of categories of people who use this phrase. You know, we've got people who aren't believers who are coming at it from a worldly perspective on what it means.

01:49:13

You've got believers who just don't read their Bibles. I don't know which one of you referenced the writing on the dusk on your

01:49:21

Bible earlier, but a group of people, you know, and then in today's world, there's a whole section of big, you know, big

01:49:29

Eva that uses it really just kind of as a manipulative tool. And so it's kind of know where, you know, where guys are when you're talking to them in the counseling session, or if you're, you know, preaching open air kind of thing.

01:49:43

But I mean, ultimately it all boils down to, I think either not understanding what love is, or I think

01:49:52

Aaron, you know, what you said earlier, just, you know, denying what people know, or maybe just not even thinking it through.

01:49:59

But I find that a lot of well -meaning Christians or folks that I would consider well -meaning, and you know,

01:50:06

I pastor some of those guys, it's not that they're trying to twist it on intentionally, they just don't think through very well.

01:50:14

You know, they don't stop to think, oh, well, you know, what's the loving scenario if my kid's about to stick his finger in that light socket, am

01:50:21

I just gonna say, well, no, honey, don't do that, and let him go for it? No, like I'm gonna throw the cat out of the way,

01:50:29

I'm gonna dive in the floor, and you know, whatever the case is. I find a lot of folks in that category, they just don't simply think through that process.

01:50:38

So I thought it was good giving those illustrations. And we've heard, I haven't heard that one before, I've heard the one that the fire in the building, right?

01:50:45

If someone's apartment's on fire, you're gonna just knock on the door, and if they don't answer, leave kind of thing.

01:50:50

No, you're gonna break the door down and all that sort of stuff. I think those - It all comes, yeah.

01:50:56

Actually, actually, Nathania, you obviously don't know the current culture. They would get their phone out so they can get the

01:51:03

YouTube video and let them burn, see? That's true, that's true.

01:51:09

Yeah, you guys, someone call the fire department while I'm filming this. Yeah. That's crazy.

01:51:15

Well, because it is unloving to tell someone to stop doing something that's good for them.

01:51:23

So as long as I think something's good for me, you telling me to stop is unloving. I've gotta come face -to -face with the fact that I'm about to burn to death.

01:51:31

I'm about to get flattened. I'm about to be sent to hell by God's righteousness because I've offended him.

01:51:38

And if I don't grasp that, then of course what you're doing is unloving. So let's get to the last one in this category.

01:51:46

And if we have time, we got one left in the other category, but we'll see. The truth will set you free.

01:51:53

That's in scripture. So it must be biblical, right? I can say it so that -

01:51:59

It's in red letters. Yeah. Yeah, so since Jesus said it, it must mean that the truth is gonna set me free so I can be a homosexual.

01:52:14

I mean, that's how I've heard this. Yeah, people don't go and actually read it in its context.

01:52:23

Let's pull that up. I'm trying to do that now. So the context in John 8, 31, where then said

01:52:32

Jesus to those Jews, which believed on him or proposed to believe on him, if you continue in my word, then you are my disciples indeed.

01:52:41

And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. So the context is that the truth comes from Jesus and from continuing in his word and being a true disciple of Jesus.

01:52:54

So yeah. How else are you gonna use that verse in context without it being true discipleship and continuing in the word of Jesus?

01:53:04

Well, it's a little bit more specific than that even because this is, so in the context, right?

01:53:10

Jesus healed a blind man. There's a big debate going on with the Jewish leaders. And it's a debate over Jesus's deity.

01:53:19

And he is saying to the Jews, right? Because these

01:53:26

Jewish people weren't believing in him. Right? That's the issue.

01:53:33

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed in him, if you continue in my word, then you are truly my disciples of mine.

01:53:43

And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. And what did they end up saying right after that?

01:53:49

They answered, we're Abraham's descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone. How do you say -

01:53:59

They don't know their own history. We will become free, right? Well, not only their own history, at that time they were slaves to the Romans.

01:54:04

Right, right. It shows you the deception that they're in. So the most loving thing

01:54:10

Jesus could do is tell them you're enslaved, right? So - It's all about choosing to define it the way

01:54:16

I wanna define it. We keep coming back to this. I heard a, now this isn't actually a thing.

01:54:21

She was a self -professed lesbian pastor who quoted

01:54:26

Psalm 121 .8. The Lord will guard your going out and your coming in from this time forth and forever.

01:54:33

And she applied her coming out as lesbian and supported that God was going to guard her coming out.

01:54:44

Exactly. But see, that's what the Jews did when Jesus said, Jesus is talking about being delivered, right?

01:54:50

And so like, well, we don't need to be delivered because we've never been enslaved. And they decided to define it, not only not historically, but they decided to define it in such this tiny little sliver.

01:55:01

It's like we referenced earlier in Genesis 3, right? Where you're not surely gonna die.

01:55:08

Well, if you understood it as, I eat this and I die physically, well, no, Satan wasn't lying to them.

01:55:15

And see, we have to dig into this. So Jesus is saying, you're gonna be delivered. Well, the question we have to ask is delivered from what?

01:55:23

Well, see, here's the thing. They wanna make it really narrow. What does Jesus say in the very next verse? He's gonna make it super wide.

01:55:29

Jesus answers them, truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.

01:55:35

So they want it really narrow. And he goes, oh no, you're all slaves. Every word of it.

01:55:41

He clarified them. The truth sets us free from sin. And so the most loving thing he could do was to correct their error.

01:55:50

There you go. Another example. It's beautiful because of the context of the slavery, because it goes on.

01:55:59

It says, so if the son sets you free, you will be free indeed, because a slave has no permanent place, but when the son sets you free, it's like that concept of that you are a slave, you're owned by the master, and only the master or the son of the master can set you free from that slavery.

01:56:17

And there's nothing you can do yourself. So that truth is embodied in Christ because he was the son that set us free.

01:56:27

And from what? Our sins. Yeah. Tim, I'm gonna reach out to you, see if you have anything, any last, you've been the quiet one for the most part.

01:56:37

That's gotta be a first for me. Everything we've talked about has reminded me a lot of the sermon series that we just finished at church, which was going through judges.

01:56:53

And every time I go through judges, a different thing jumps out at me. And this particular time, one of the things that jumped out at me was how each of the characters had some understanding of God's law.

01:57:14

Micah decided he wanted his own high priest, household high priest.

01:57:21

Gideon knew when he started to figure out that the visitor was divine, he knew to do a sacrifice, but his father was a priest of Baal and Asher.

01:57:38

And I think every one of these phrases has some element of scripture in it, but people are picking and choosing what they want to remember.

01:57:51

And look how well it worked out in judges. I mean, each judge represents a progressively worse and worse, everybody does what's right in their own mind.

01:58:05

And that's what we're seeing in today's society too. It's people are picking and choosing what they want to believe in scripture or how they want to define love or justice or hate.

01:58:19

And that's gonna be our downfall is not living in the totality of God's word, rather just picking what we want out of it.

01:58:33

All right. Well, with that, we're gonna wrap up with that. Before we close out, I'm gonna give you guys some reviews that we got from the

01:58:40

Christian Podcast Community. And if folks wanna send us a review, easy way to do it, we've created a link for you.

01:58:47

Just go to lovethepodcast .com slash CPC. CPC stands for Christian Podcast Community.

01:58:55

So lovethepodcast .com slash CPC. We'll be able to see wherever you end up putting a review, whether on Apple Podcasts, Google, or whatever.

01:59:06

But we got five -star review, solid biblical teaching. When I listen to the podcasts on the

01:59:13

Christian Podcast Community, I know they have been screened and that their programs must be based on the holy scriptures.

01:59:23

You won't find name it and claim it teaching here.

01:59:29

Instead, you will hear the gospel of the true and living God. Now, they will hear the name it and claim it on Nathaniel Jolly's podcast.

01:59:40

I'm just saying. I mean, he starts off his very first episode talking about how he was naming it and claiming it, but then he talks about how he came out of that.

01:59:48

Okay. Another five -star review from Daryl says, excellent. This is an excellent resource to find many solid podcasts.

02:00:01

EMHR3, that's an easy name. I'm sure they have no problem pronouncing that one, but they gave, said, love the variety of biblical shows.

02:00:11

I love how you have my favorite shows together to play like a radio.

02:00:17

It's good to find new shows. My, then they have a suggestion for us.

02:00:23

My one suggestion would be put the name and title on the download. And so the problem with that is, well, we can't.

02:00:31

It's a problem with the way the technology is. And we're not allowed to put the name in the title phrase because Apple frowns on that and we'll kick you off.

02:00:39

So we can't do that. So we have -

02:00:44

Still a good suggestion. Thanks for that. It is, no, it's something we, so the way we've cheated kind of, and you'll see that I do this on all mine, but the way that I cheat is

02:00:53

I will put the very first line and I know Colleen does this too. We like for this episode, it'll say, right?

02:01:00

The first line of show notes will be theology throw down episode 10 because we're not allowed to put the episode number in the, they don't,

02:01:08

Apple doesn't want you putting episode numbers in a title. They just want titles to be titles. They don't want the name and then they don't want anything in there, but a title.

02:01:14

So I put that at the very first line. So when it shows up in your feed, if you look, because we have a lot of people that just subscribe to the

02:01:23

Christian Podcast community feed. And if you do, you just see all these shows that pop in and we never know, like,

02:01:29

I never know whose show it is until I go in and start listening, but I listened to all of them. So, you know, it's like, oh, what's up next?

02:01:36

We'll get a surprise. You know, so, but yeah, it's a thing just with the technology.

02:01:45

I've tried, I begged the webmaster to figure a way to do that when sharing it and it doesn't work.

02:01:51

So they gave us four stars because they had a suggestion and four stars for something outside of our control.

02:01:58

I feel so bad, but with that,

02:02:03

I think we're done. We'll be back next month. Don't know what we'll have as a topic. I want to thank everyone who came on and Aaron, maybe for you,

02:02:12

I noticed that when Anthony left, his comment was got to tap out. So maybe, you know, it's the -

02:02:18

Put him in an arm bar. Yeah, you know, I prefer chokes. I don't know why, you know.

02:02:25

They work faster, they do. Yeah, yeah. I seem to pull them off better, but.

02:02:32

It's unloving, Andrew. No, no, no, no, I see - Don't judge him. It is loving.

02:02:38

I'm, you know, like the next time I see Drew, I will help him learn how to get out of a choke hold.

02:02:43

Exactly. You see, it's - Okay, there you go. The truth is that it's free.

02:02:51

As soon as the show, we can pretzel our way out of anything. See, we can now give you all these phrases, these keywords, all new meanings.

02:03:00

Just, before you show me that, make sure you let me know what you're gonna do so that I can disarm myself for your benefit.

02:03:08

If you would like to see, I'll tell you what you should do, and you've already gone there. Just go to justiniwin .com.

02:03:17

And if you haven't gone there, I just encourage you guys, go to justiniwin .com. You'll have to watch the video that's there at the lower part in the description to get the context of it.

02:03:27

But yes, anyone that gets worried that sees the very first picture and sees me choking out

02:03:32

Justin Peters, can you please look carefully? It is a very bad rear naked choke.

02:03:39

I mean, my elbow isn't anywhere in the right position. He's not in any danger whatsoever.

02:03:44

It was just for a picture. And if you're upset with that, please go to the next picture where he's choking me out with his crutches, okay?

02:03:52

You can see it all there at justiniwin .com. And while you're there, donate to Justin Peters Ministries.

02:03:59

It's a good thing. You know, I think it's weird that his pamphlet for his ministry.

02:04:06

No, it's his newsletter. Or his newsletter. That's the picture he has of you. Yeah. You choking him.

02:04:13

He wanted, okay. So this is really, now we're off topic. Justin likes to put the different men that he has preached with, you know, in his newsletter each year.

02:04:22

So he'll have different pictures. He needed one with me. And the picture he has with me is me choking him.

02:04:32

And let's be honest. Even if you were choking him out, all things work together for good. There you go.

02:04:39

I will never choke you out more than you can handle. Oh, that was great.