Common Christian Cliches

Do you post the video? Yeah. All right, here we go. Welcome to another Theology Throwdown. This is part of the Christian podcast community, where the Christian podcast community members get together and discuss theology.

We're going to have a number of guests on today, but one of the things I'm noticing is you can always tell when you're doing a Zoom meeting with podcasters. We all have these good mics in front of us.

Instead of already doing Zoom meetings and everyone's using a laptop mic, I do our elder meetings sometimes by Zoom, and it's like, can you get closer to that laptop for me? All right, so let's start off.

We're going to introduce ourselves. Tonight's topic is going to be, well, probably some things you've said before, and after the show you may regret, but we've probably said them too, but common Christian cliches, some that are scriptural and some that are, well, nowhere in scripture.

So I'm going to have us each introduce ourselves, our podcast, tell a little bit about yourself. So I'll start with what's on at least on my screen on my top right.

Nathaniel, go for it. Yeah, I'm Nathaniel Jolly. I've got the host of the Truth Be Known podcast, and I'm actually a church planning pastor in a small town in Alaska, and so we've been here for just a few months doing that, and yeah, it's good to be on with you guys.

And when you started with.

Us, you were headed to right around Alaska, right? It was pretty close? Yeah, pretty close. Alaska, Africa, both start and end with A. And so for the first time with us as well is Mr. Tim Martin. We've been trying to get him on for quite a while, so we'll go with Tim and then Eve, so that you're on the same podcast, so go for it.

Eve, would you like to? Tim doesn't want to talk.

The topic was his idea. Yeah. Well, Tim and I are co-hosts of the Are You Just Watching podcast, and we discuss movies with a Christian worldview, secular movies with a Christian worldview, so we get to point out all the things that they get wrong.

But I also have a book, so as you can see from my screenshot, I have a guided journal that will help you discuss and watch movies with.

A Christian worldview instead of shutting your brain off. And it's nicely titled Are You Just Watching, just like the name of your podcast. Yes. So Aaron, you're up. My name's Aaron Brewster,.

Sometimes known as A .M. Brewster. I am the host of two podcasts, the first of which has been going for about four years now. It's called Truth, Love, Parent. I'm a biblical family counselor, and so Truth, Love, Parent is all about being a biblical parent, learning what it means to parent the way God called and created us to parent.

The second podcast that started earlier this year is called The Celebration of God, and really it's all about discipleship and worship, giving God the preeminence that he deserves every day of every week of every year, and then helping others to do the exact same thing.

And I'm glad because now I'm not the only.

Person that has more than one podcast. So I was glad when you joined for that reason. By the way, most kids, you must have exceptional kids because most people, the parents have pictures from their kids drawing a house behind them, and that picture of the house behind you is like perfectly straight.

Lines. That's amazing. Your kids are amazing. Andrew, I drew that one.

And we did learn before we started recording, we should call you Master Brewster.

Master Brewster, yeah, which in the context of a throwdown is completely appropriate. I am a martial artist, so watch yourself. Yeah, so okay, so now I have to ask, what styles? Well, I've studied 10 different martial arts.

I have black belts in three of them. So my highest rank, fifth degree black belt is actually in ninjutsu. So yes, I technically am a ninja. Legitimately, I am a ninja, but I have black belts in Tang Sudo, and I've studied various.

Martial arts, sundry. All right, well, I have some karate and jiu-jitsu, but I'm not going to mess with you. Sounds like he's forgotten more martial arts than I learned. Drew, you're up.

Yeah, my name is Drew Vonita, and I host the Matter of Theology podcast. I live in the great state of Georgia, go Dawgs. And by day, I am a FedEx driver, and this is the worst time to be doing FedEx. So it's amazing that I'm still awake right now.

But by night, I crack open some theology books, and just this is my real bookshelf. It's not a green screen, it's real. With all the John Owens stuff. All the John Owens stuff, which also because I host Matter of Theology, we're doing a giveaway.

We're giving away some John Owens books. So if you listen and you have not entered, go enter.

Yeah, so I was going to mention it later, but if you want to enter into that contest to get two different John Owens books, Death of Death, and also Mortification of Sin. I forgot which one, if it's Indwelling or Mortification.

So Mortification of Sin, you could just go to podcasts, plural, podcasts .strivingforeternity .org, slash John Owen, all lowercase. Daniel, you're up next.

Well, I'm Daniel Minnick, the host of the Truthspresso podcast. And in my podcast, I like to try to take an in-depth look at various things, particularly theology. And with the year 2020, I kind of got a little bit deep into economics, almost my vendetta against the government.

And so even to the point of doing a three-part short story that I wrote called The Tale of the Superblians. But never fear, I will move on from a sci-fi story trying to teach economics and go back into theological topics, starting with Christmas.

And then I'm going to get into church history and comparing heresies about who Jesus is to superheroes. And then I'll do a series on Jehovah's Witnesses. So stay tuned for some in-depth theological and historical topics on.

Truthspresso. Yeah, I'm always amazed that you got all those voices in. Anthony, you're up. Let me explain that. If you haven't heard those last three shows, this story he wrote,.

He's got like all these different voices he plays. Including Bernie Sanders, right?

So basically, just go listen to their podcasts. They already sound fascinating. So anyway, but I am the host of Grace and Peace Radio. Grace and Peace Radio is a Christian living blog and podcast dedicated to encouraging people in their walk in the Lord, basically.

I just try to pull together things that help me to grow in the Lord and share them with people. So pretty everyday stuff. I'm doing a little two-part series right now on spiritual strength for dark days and just some ways that we can encourage ourselves and others to persevere.

In dark days. And since you forgot to give your name, that's Anthony Russo there. That is Anthony Russo. Finally, after all these years of podcasting, he had his first guest,.

But he was cheating on his wife. Well, no, no, no. I've had guests, but this was the first time that she co-hosted. And this was episode like 42, I think, or 41, 42. All right. And Colleen.

I'm Colleen Sharp, and I host Theology Gal's podcast and or podcast on Reform Theology. We're confessional Presbyterians and we're never controversial. Never. And if you see anything said about us, it's probably true.

You can believe everything that you read on the internet.

It's always very fascinating when people send me screenshots about myself and Colleen such and such. It's always learned things I didn't even know that I believed.

You are also the chief administrator of the Christian podcast community and you co-host. So you want to be a podcaster with me? That's when we do together. I am Andrew Rappaport. I'm the executive director of Christian podcast community, and I have a number of podcasts.

So I'll just stick with The Rappaport, which is my main one, along with Apologetics Live, which is there for you to ask any theological questions or challenges on a Thursday night. You can just go to ApologeticsLive .com and join us there.

And I have a couple others, but that's all right. We'll just move on to our topic tonight. So what we want to do is talk about Christian cliches, things we hear, some that are from scripture and some that, well, are nowhere found in scripture.

Or as I think it was Tim that said, ain't in scripture, ain't nowhere in scripture. Let's start with those that are nowhere in scripture and then we'll get to some that are in scripture. So what we'll do, the way this works, folks, is I'm going to just give these different cliches.

We're going to all talk about it and we'll try to move on from one to another. So anyone who wants to pipe up, just feel free. Anthony's better at like picking on people. But hopefully we'll get lots of dialogue.

So the first one is hate the sin, but love the sinner. I'm sure you guys have never, ever heard that one before. Actually, I don't know who made this one popular. I want to say it's Billy Graham, but I don't know if it was before him.

It was actually Mahatma Gandhi and his autobiography from 1929. Really? Yep. Wow. Okay. And even that's a paraphrase. Yeah, but that would be because he wasn't speaking English. It would actually be a translation.

It was a longer sentence, but that's what it boils down to. All right. So have you guys heard this one before? This is in the category of found nowhere in scripture. So what are your thoughts on this?

If you've been in the church for any amount of time, this is a phrase that we have heard. The problem is the people who say it are the ones who don't actually study scripture, because scripture actually says the opposite.

I mean, just go to Psalm 55, where it says, the Lord hates all who do iniquity. And that's another phrase, right? Well, God doesn't hate. Actually, he does. It says he does in his words. And not to mention, God doesn't send the sin to hell.

He sends the sinner to hell. I don't know how you get around that one.

Yeah, I'd like to add that. Yeah, that's probably the... I had that verse also. I think it's the most common verse to reply to that phrase. Also, Proverbs 6, 16 through 19, which are the six, actually the seven things that God says he hates.

The last two in verse 19 says, a false witness that speaks lies and he that sows discord among the brethren. So the last two mentioned are people. God hates people. And of course, what is it that... I'm trying to think of the verse, we are all children of wrath, even as they before we're converted.

So God hates people, but we're saved by grace. And so we're under the wrath of God until the blood of Jesus Christ is applied to us through faith via justification. And then we're loved by God as one of his children.

So yeah, I definitely agree that that phrase is not biblical. I think another important one is Psalm 11, 5. It says that the one who loves violence, his, referring to God, his soul hates. So again, yeah, we're seeing that God does actually hate the individual who was doing the sin.

He hates the sin, but he also in a way hates the sinner. But I think the really important concept here is that biblically speaking, you can love someone and hate them at the exact same time. Within a modern context, hate is the antithesis of love, but biblically speaking, that's not the case.

And I think that's where our breakdown comes in, because yeah, God loves the sinner. Okay. Yeah, obviously he loved us. In Romans 5, 8, he demonstrated his love toward us and that while we were sinners, he died for us.

So clearly he loves the sinner and yet he can also hate the sinner. And biblically speaking, we're supposed to do the exact same thing. So if we don't understand biblically what love is and biblically what hate is, we're going to say ridiculous things like this.

And we live in a culture now where people actually self-identify with their sin. So how do you separate the sin from the sinner when they actually identify themselves by their sin?

Yeah, that's true. But yeah, I don't hear too many people saying, I'm an adulterous Christian. I'm a lying Christian. You're not in the right denomination for that. Oh, okay. So let me throw another verse that I guess we're all in Psalms here.

Another one out of New King James is Psalm 711. God is a just judge and God is angry with the wicked every day. So I think clearly we see that what I really think that you hit on there was the definition of love and hate, because several of these that we're going to come up upon today is going to deal with a misunderstanding of love.

Defining love as the way much of the world wants to define love when it comes from God is God should love us and just basically spoil us, give us everything we want. Maybe Aaron could answer this one being the counselor.

What happens when we give kids everything they want with no consequences? Does that produce well-behaved children? Yeah, they grow up to be amazing,.

Wonderful citizens. No, no, it doesn't. It's terrible. Spoiled children are awful and everyone.

Knows it. Everyone in the store hates when their parent spoils their child. Oh my word, yes. Maybe.

They grew up to be protesters. I don't know, something like that. Yes, they do. Yes, that's.

Statistical. Yes, they do. One grew up to be president, the one before the current one that we have. Let me ask this then. Clearly this isn't biblical, and as Aaron pointed out, we can both love and hate at the same time, but how should this manifest in our dealings with both believers.

And non-believers? I would say you hate the sin. You hate what the person is doing, whether it's living a homosexual lifestyle that is against God, whether it is living a heterosexual lifestyle, you know, living together with someone that is against what God says.

Both of those are sin. You deal with those as you're presenting the gospel, and you love the sinner by telling them.

The truth. Well, I would also add that yes, we hate the sin, but when people say we are to love the sinner, what they mean is that they're saying we need to accept and or celebrate the sin that sinner is committing.

So if we actually do that, we're actually showing that we're hating the sinner. We're hating the sin, and we're hating the sinner by allowing them to stay in that sin. So the most loving thing we can do, like you just said, is to give them the gospel, and then sure, we love them through that, but we don't accept what they're doing, and we don't celebrate what.

They're doing. I think also it's a matter of tact and knowing when, you know, when to bring.

Something up with someone. I think an extreme example to what Tim was saying, specifically within the body of Christ, well, first of all, again, we have to understand what the word hate means. It can refer to like this strong emotional loathing, but it can also refer to standing against something, like drawing a line in the sand and saying, you know, that's on that side, and I can't embrace that.

It also can simply refer to loving something less. You know, we see the Greek example of that in Luke 14, 26, where, you know, Christ says he has to hate his own father and mother to be my disciple. Okay, so we see all that, but I think an extreme example of this within the church is Matthew 18.

So the most loving thing I can do is I can confront you about your sin. If you reject that, okay, which in itself is a sin, then I bring some other people with me, so on and so forth. You keep rejecting God forbidden.

We're now bringing you before the church. The most loving thing we can do, and if we define love biblically, okay, I like to define it this way. Love is wanting and working toward God's best interest in someone's life.

Okay, that's the best way that I can love you. So if you've come to that place and you're just rejecting God's truth and rejecting reconciliation, the most loving thing I can do for you is to draw a line in the sand, and Christ says to remove you from the fellowship of the church.

That biblically speaking could be defined biblically as hatred, okay, to cause that separation, but it's being done because I love you.

Right. Yeah, we also see that in 1 Corinthians 5 as well, when the person that is removed from the fellowship in order that their soul might be saved. Yes, exactly. And specifically,.

Paul, of course, as you know, even says, hand that one over to Satan. Right. I mean, that's, you want to talk about tough love, that's some tough love. Yeah, but I think that's an important.

Distinguishing thing to have because when we talk about love, sometimes the most loving thing to do is something that the person isn't going to appreciate. I mean, any of us who have had children, you're giving your child a spanking and saying, I'm doing this because I love you, and they're going, I don't feel it.

No, you're feeling it. Right. But it is the most loving thing you could do is, you know, I'd always explain to my son when he was younger, and he'd say, this doesn't feel like love. And when he got, I'd always say, when you get older, and you don't do some things that, you know, would cause you trouble or kill you, you'll understand why.

As an adult, he could understand it, but he didn't understand it as a child. All right, so let's.

Move. Anyone else have anything more on that one? Yeah, I'll just add that we could definitely find, as I mentioned, both love and hate. We can find verses that otherwise you'd think that they conflict with each other if we don't understand that you can both love and hate at the same time.

Like, for example, in Psalm 139, 21 through 22, the psalmist says,. Do I not hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? And am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with a perfect hatred, I count them mine enemies.

But then we also have in Psalm 51, 13,. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways, and sinners shall be converted unto thee. And so we have the idea of, okay, you're an enemy of God, you are under hatred.

And I guess, yeah, like, hating people that hate God doesn't necessarily mean that you wish them to the pit. But, you know, you, you, you know, they're in a state where they're worthy of God's hatred.

But you should also desire their conversion so that you no longer have to hate them.

Yeah, like that, you know, we're in Psalms a lot tonight, but all the, you know, the Psalms, the prehistoric prayers, you know, my enemies. Yeah, I mean, it seems like here's a man after God owns heart.

And he says a lot of things like about seems he hates some people or is angry with.

Them. I think the key thing for this one, and probably a lot of other ones we're going to talk about tonight is the fact that if you're understanding it within a modern, typical use English usage, right, then in a way, there's there's accuracy there.

Because you think of hating sinners and whatnot, you think of places like Westboro Baptist, which isn't even a church, right? And of course, we were not saying that we're not those people we that is not the hatred that we're talking about.

It's not the separation that the Bible talks about. So it is really important that when we're talking with people, if we encounter people who use that terminology, that we tread lightly and help to unpack the scriptures, because if we say that people know you're supposed to hate the sinner, well, it's clear that a bunch of people who didn't understand the biblical terminology are going to misrepresent what we just said.

I mean, oh, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say that God shows a general love to even the sinners, right? He allows them air in their lungs, he allows the heart to beat, he allows them to wake up each new day, right?

So there is still portrayed to the sinner, a general love and affection from God, as well as a hate or a wrath that still abides over them because of their sin and their separation from Christ. You made me think of the passage, I was trying to look it.

Up real quick and couldn't, but where God brings rain on the just and the unjust, you know, that fits well there. Matthew 6. Thank you. So yeah, I mean, I think really, Aaron, what we're gonna see with each of these is it comes down to principles of hermeneutics.

I mean, most of these are issues of defining terms in their historical context, right? What does love mean in the Bible, not what does love mean to, you know, 21st century Americans who, you know, march on the streets.

Because they think that they're so poor. Actually, it's Matthew 5, sorry. I have to be proper there.

I would say, I would agree with that. It's an issue of not having a proper hermeneutic, but it's also trying to understand this conflict and between the hermeneutic and then tradition, because you have a lot of people that hold to these phrases that it's tradition, but they don't actually know the Bible.

They don't know, so they don't understand hermeneutics or how to gain a proper hermeneutic. So they're trying to marry the two when the two aren't supposed to be together at.

All. And when you say tradition, you wouldn't be referring to like the 1689 London Confession of Faith. Not one bit. Okay. All right. You know, I just want to throw that out there.

No, but like down here in the south, like a lot of these are said all the time by church going people that they carry Bibles everywhere they go, but they have so much dust on them that Spurgeon.

Said you could write condemnation on it. So real quick, before we move forward, we just talked, we just used a big theological word for anybody who doesn't know what hermeneutic is. Can we give it like a one sentence?

Yeah. Well, actually, yeah, I was going to, so just to help.

Somebody out. Yeah. Hermeneutics is the art and science of interpretation, right? So, and there's a lot to that. And why I say that it applies here is when you're studying something, you want to study it in its historical context.

When it was, you know, you think about FDR, there was a reporter that said he was a very gay man. In today's day and age, everyone thinks gay means homosexual, but in that time it meant happy. So you have to understand the terms there, which is why I brought up with what Aaron said.

The other thing that we're going to see later on a bunch is context, just looking at context. It's, you know, there's, but I also think with some of these, I won't move on to the next one, but you know, one of the things I find with what you said, Drew, is maybe in certain areas, even more like in the South, there are some of these that people think are in the Bible.

I mean, some of these things like hate, hate the sin, love the sinner. People think that's in the Bible. I remember having a person that was convinced and told me I was wrong when I said that cleanliness is next to godliness is not in the Bible.

Yes, it is. Yeah. They were like, it is too. I said, okay, find the verse. Do a Google search and you know, it'll come up if.

It's there. I mean, that's like, that's the same as Mormons, right? Mormons say, well, the Bible says you shouldn't be contentious. And I say, okay, find it. And they go, well, I know it's in there. And I said, actually, it says the opposite.

So.

I think we're going to get to that one. So let's move to the next one. That's nowhere in scripture. God helps those who help themselves. That sounds pretty biblical, doesn't it? I'm going to throw this,.

Nathaniel hasn't said much yet. So I'm going to throw this one.

Out to Nathaniel. Get your reaction first. Yeah, I mean, my first thought is how many people help themselves get saved? I mean, I'm gonna open up a bag of worms for you guys. Yeah. Does God help the person who has helped themselves first to salvation?

I think it was MacArthur that said, you know, if salvation was based upon me, you know, well, it's all of my work that got me to need a Savior.

Yeah, well, you know, the only thing we contribute to our salvation is our sin, right? That's been said. I bring my sin and that's it. And God does the rest. I don't actually know where this statement comes from.

But I grew up in the South as well in South Carolina. And this is something I heard all the time as well. And of course, you know, where's it at in scripture?

Yeah, my favorite thing. Go ahead, Daniel. Oh, yeah, I think the I was looking up that this statement and it, you know, there's been various forms of it, I think, in ancient Greek philosophy. And then I think the one that I remembered it from was from Benjamin Franklin and poor Richard's Almanac.

I think that's the occurrence that became popular because it was worded exactly that way. And of course, Benjamin Franklin, as far as we know, was like a deist or something like that, you know. But if you're applying to this, this phrase to, you know, the idea of soteriology, it definitely would sound like Pelagianism.

But I mean, I'm sure that there's some, you know, valid applications of it, depending on, you know, what, how you're trying to teach someone, like, say, if someone is trying to just, okay, I'm not going to take any initiative in what I ought to do in this regard, not talking about salvation.

But, you know, I'm just going to leave it up to God and not go look. Yeah, I'm not going to do my job. I'm not going to sit here. I'm gonna, you know, I'm just going to sit here and not do what I know I ought to do.

And then, you know, so you could say, well, you know, do you really expect God to just do everything for you while you sit idle? You know, that's not faith. And so, you know, you let go and let God mentality, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

That's actually, I was really surprised when I was reading Charles Spurgeon, and he actually uses the phrase, God helps those who helps themselves. And it's exactly in the context that Daniel just presented.

He's talking about personal industry, and that God does seem to help those who work hard and apply themselves and all that. Obviously, he wasn't talking about salvation. But in that regard, it was really cool to see that.

So, but that's one application that it does make sense. I mean, you know,.

I'd like to just stir the pot here in two ways. This is a program, so. Yeah, I know. So, here we go. First of all, according to Christianity .com, Algernon Sidney was an English politician who lived in the 1600s.

And the actual English version of this quote supposedly was penned by that guy. So, there we go. So, Benjamin Franklin, you know, whatever. Christianity .com says it was.

Algernon Sidney. Anyway. Thank you for taking my ancestor out of the hot seat.

You're welcome. My pleasure. Anytime. The other thing is, though, too, and Daniel beat me to it. But I think in a way, like, first of all, let me just, in all transparency, I've always hated this one.

I absolutely hate it. But I'm gonna play devil's advocate. No, just play the advocate. We don't. Okay, just the advocate. So, you know, sanctification, we talk about there being a cooperation between us and the Holy Spirit's work in us, right?

The Holy Spirit is not going to sanctify me, despite me. There's got to be that me working along with being filled with the Spirit, you know, putting on the Spirit, so on and so forth. I have to put off, I have to renew my mind, I have to put on.

So, in a way, if by help themselves, we're talking about doing what's in my best interest, okay, and what's in my best interest is God's best interest for my life, yes, I think we could argue that what's in my best interest is I'm going to run to Christ.

I'm going to cast my burdens on Him. I'm going to beg Him for wisdom. I'm going to admit that I'm not enough. I'm going to be grieved over my sin. I'm going to humbly go to Him and do everything else that the Scripture says that will result in me then hearing from God, because the bulk of the promises in the Scripture are, in fact, conditional.

I don't think we like to focus on that too much, but the vast majority of Scriptural promises are conditional. Even Romans 8, 28, right? So, therefore, there is something that's required to be done. However, I think that, done being advocate now, right, that's not really about me helping myself.

That's about me giving God the preeminence of my life and submitting to Him as the sovereign.

Of my life than it is anything else. Well, yeah, I think the context of, you know, help themselves, where do we place that context, right? Do we place it in, well, you know, I want the big mansion, you know, on 5 ,000 acres of land, you know, therefore, I got to help my, I got to go help myself so that God can intervene and help me get the things that I want just for myself, right?

Or am I seeking after these things in my life, moving in sanctification, not just for myself, but so that I can honor and glorify God?

Well, I think the first one you did is Joel Osteen's theology, right? I mean, I do think, like, just like the last one, there's an aspect of it where it can be somewhat true for us. I mean, to say God hates the sin, loves the sinner is wrong.

But to say that we should hate the sin, but still love the sinner could be true. This one has an element where, again, it could be, it depends on how people mean it. It's not that God sits back, waits for you to do something, and then says, oh, you're doing, okay, now I can help you along, which is almost the way that some people make it sound.

But it is, if it's going to be speaking against the let go, let God mentality, then yeah, it is something where, you know, we do have in Scripture, Paul saying in Thessalonians, if man doesn't work, he shouldn't eat, right?

So yes, you should be working, and God's going to bless you with this thing called food, right? And so there is an element where this could be true. And I think that's why some of these people end up latching onto and using and even thinking that's in Scripture, because there's an element of truth that could be in there, depending how you interpret it.

And that's why when someone uses this, I think we should be careful to say,.

Well, how do you mean that? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good point, Andrew. And I mean, it comes up in all kinds of contexts. All you have to do is log on to Twitter. And instantly, you will think, okay, I want to know definitions.

I want to know the context. But people typically skip those things and just go, you know, straight beeline to comment on a lot of these things, just as, like I said, and others we're going to comment on tonight.

It's important that we talk about context. It's important that we define what we're talking about. It's important to know what categories of things we're putting these in, just because, like what we said, you know, if you don't work, you don't eat.

And so there's some truth in those kinds of things. If you're talking about soteriology, then, you know, no way. We have nothing to give to that. And isn't, I mean, this is true with almost every theological, doctrinal issue we could come up with.

You could twist a little out of context. You could make it mean something that it doesn't mean. So these things really matter. And, you know, I think if we develop the habit as believers of asking those critical questions, we'll eliminate a lot of misunderstanding.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, labels are only good if both people agree on what it means. It's the reason people ask me, are you a Calvinist? I will never answer that question because I don't know what you mean by it.

I have been told that, you know, I'm a heretic because I'm a Calvinist. And I've been told I'm a heretic because I'm not a Calvinist. So the only thing everyone agrees on.

Is that I'm a heretic, but, you know. You know, this particular saying, bringing it back to the work of salvation, where we have God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, right? And what did Spurgeon say?

Spurgeon was asked about that question. How do you reconcile those things? And he said, well, it's not my job to reconcile friends, right? I don't really know how they work. They're like the train tracks that meet off in the distance, but I know they go together, right?

So far, the two cliche sayings we've looked at, to Andrew's point about the hermeneutic, they only make sense when you approach them with a true biblical hermeneutic.

Correct. I like that comment because if you tie it back to people who don't work, don't eat, when you don't work, you are rebelling against God because man is made to work. It was like the first thing we were set on this planet to do.

And when people misuse this one, God helps those who help themselves. They cherry pick what they wanted to mean. And they're being true to themselves. They're not being true to God. And they're rebelling against God by idolizing their own needs, their own desires above what is in God's best interest.

And to Nathaniel's point, I'm going to mix together two quotes. Voltaire was the guy who said, basically, if you wish to converse with me, define your terms. And it was John MacArthur who said to one of the guys who came in to be on staff there, and the other pastor said, hey, if I ever have to come to you and confront you about something, how do I do this?

He's like, you're John MacArthur. And MacArthur basically said, just bring your Bible. So if we take those two ideas, if you wish to converse with me, define your terms, going back to what Andrew said about a hermeneutic, and then we mix that with bring your Bible, then we're saying, if you wish to converse with me, let's define our terms biblically.

And the moment that we do that, we're going to see so much clarity in all of these. I think that's what we're doing.