August 6, 2018 Show with Dr. James R. White & Dr. Michael L Brown on “Declaring the Truth With Love & Without Compromise to Advocates of Homosexuality in the Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this sixth day of August 2018, and before I introduce our guest today, whom I am very excited to introduce, I've got some phenomenal news.

I just got a call today from the current president of Family Radio, Tom Evans, and Tom Evans wants to be interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. He picked us above all other radio programs to give the great news to the world, basically, that Family Radio has repented officially of the heresies of Harold Camping.

They have abandoned all of those things that he embraced and proclaimed that are outside of confessional reform theology, and of course, even more importantly, outside of the scriptures. And Tom, God-willing, is going to be on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on Thursday, the 23rd of August from 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, and I hope you mark your calendars for that date so that you can be prepared with questions for Tom about the all-new Family Radio, and I am so honored and humbled and delighted that he has chosen Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to make this big announcement officially.

But today, we have two friends of mine on the program. I'm excited about today's show. I'm also excited about an event that is coming up in September in Jacksonville, Florida that I have helped to arrange.

But today, we are going to be interviewing Dr. James R. White, who is an author, apologist, debater, conference speaker, and co-founder and director of Alpha Omega Ministries and host of the Dividing Line program, and also Dr. Michael L. Brown, who is also an author, an apologist, a debater, a president, and professor of practical theology at Fire School of Ministry and host of the Line of Fire.

And we are today going to be discussing Declaring the Truth with Love and Without Compromise to Advocates of Homosexuality in the Church, and we'll be announcing a debate that's coming up that I just mentioned or hinted at a few minutes ago.

But it's my honor and privilege, first of all, to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. James R. White. And Dr. Michael Brown is going to be joining us, God willing, in a little bit. His Dividing Line, I'm sorry, his Line of Fire, there's two lines in those shows, the Line of Fire broadcast is ending at four o 'clock, so he is going to be a little bit late joining us.

But Dr. White, I'm so delighted also that we are both cooperating together again on an event, a major event, this one to be held, God willing, on September 8th, Saturday, September 8th at 630 p .m. at the Switzerland Community Church that involves both you and Dr. Brown, and two professing Christians who are ministers, ordained ministers, who are also homosexual, and who promote homosexuality as something that is consistent with New Testament obedience.

And I am really honored to once again be used of God to get one of these events launched this coming fall, or this.

September, anyway. Right. Yeah, well, I'm talking people into doing things they don't really want to do.

Well, I can say that the two individuals, the two ministers who are professed Christians who believe that they can simultaneously live as homosexuals and be consistent with the New Testament, I can say that both men, I mean, I don't know them, I've never spent a great deal of time with them, even in my phone conversations or email exchanges, but they both seemed very eager to be involved in the debate, they both seemed from outside of the box of leftist totalitarianism, they didn't think, at least in their conversations with me, that voices like yours and mine and Dr. Brown's should be silenced, they didn't, while I was speaking with them or communicating with them, they didn't hurl any accusation of hatred or bigotry, they just seemed to think that they are misunderstood, and then they want to be a part of the discussion in the public square about this.

So I am, at least for now, I mean, obviously we don't know what's going to happen during the live debate, but at least for now, I am pleased that this doesn't appear that it's going to be some kind of a hate fest on their part, I know that it won't be a hate fest on your part or Dr. Brown's part, but it seems that what we see in the media are leftist totalitarians.

Who just want us to disappear and go away. That does seem to be the major narrative. We're about a month out and we'll be certainly ready to go to Florida where I assume in... Yeah, well I hope not, but we'll see.

And I believe we.

Have just been joined by Dr. Michael L. Brown of the Fire School of Ministry and host of the Line of Fire. Are you there with us, Dr. Brown? I am here. Great. A.

Couple of tries to get through, but we are here. Yeah, well, I don't know what the.

Deal is with this multiple guest line, but sometimes it can be finicky, and I might as well tell you both up front that if you are dropped, it's not because I hung up on you for any reason, just keep calling back and you'll, God willing, eventually get back on the show.

One thing that I did not mention during my brief introduction of my two guests today, in addition to everything I've already said about Dr. Michael L. Brown, he is author of at least three books on the subject we are addressing today.

The first is A Queer Thing Happened to America, and What a Long Strange Trip It's Been. He's also author of Can You Be Gay and Christian? Responding with Love and Truth to Questions about Homosexuality, and Outlasting the Gay Revolution, Where Homosexual Activism is Really Going, and How to Turn the Tide.

And I think that's the book where you seem to unconsciously be revealing that you're a post-millennialist, isn't it, Dr. Brown?

No, it's where I'm telling what I've always told, which is that the gospel is very powerful to change lives, and that leads to the end of the earth, so my confidence is in him.

More than anything else. Amen. And for those of you listening who already heard me introduce Dr. White, I did not mention that he is also a co-author of a book, The Same-Sex Controversy, and I do want to give the good news to our listeners that, at least for a certain number of the listeners that write in with questions today, you are not only going to be winning a free copy of Dr. Brown's book, Can You Be Gay and Christian?, but you are also going to be getting a free copy of The Same-Sex Controversy by Dr. James R. White and Jeff Neal.

So that is compliments of the publishers of each of those books, Charisma Media in the case of Dr. Brown's book, and Baker Publishing, Bethany House in the case of Dr. White's book. Well, first of all, let me ask Dr. Brown to begin with.

You've written three books on this subject. How are they different from one another, and why did you feel the.

Need to write so many? You could write a book having to do with LGBT activism, but this is not a battle I was looking at, and enough people that hate me for different reasons for the Gospel, and I don't come out of homosexual testimony, but in 2004, Chris, I began to get burdened that this was the great issue, the unavoidable issue for the Church in this generation.

Because I'm thinking you've got James Dobson, you got Chuck Colson, and you got Tony Perkins, and you've got these ministries and organizations and their family and political and different things. What do they need me for?

This is not my area. It happened to America. That is 700 pages, 1 ,500 endnotes. No major publisher apologized to me. We had to form a new publishing house called Equal Time Books to get the book out, and that goes through the whole history.

That tells you the reality of gay activism, what's happening in our children's schools and our universities, what's the psychiatric profession with the rewriting of the Bible, the attack on religious rights.

People say, Mike, have you heard the latest thing? I said, I wrote a bout that seven years ago. It's all in the book. And then, can you begin, Chris, to not issues in society, but people, and people struggling with unwanted same-sex attraction, and those who've concluded, no, this is the way God made me, and as long as the relationship is loving, God's pleased.

And then outlasting the gay people we need, what I need to do is show what's going wrong in society. In each case, what we can do for life. So each book touches on something different, distinct works, hundreds of articles as well, because virtually every week something's happening in the news, and yet stand firm for righteousness at the same time in.

The midst of a confused society. And I think it might be wise for us to inform our listeners who may be unaware of this, but your title of A Queer Thing Happened to America, you are not intending to be nasty.

That is a term that has now become a self-identifying term for those who are practicing or advocating homosexual activity. They now have adopted that term themselves. It's no longer just a pejorative term.

It's something that they use in their own writings and their own rhetoric. Am I right? Of course, I never would have used.

Anything, and in 2003, great guy, when I would share that gay activist talk, laughed at it. The ones I wouldn't have used it. If the content of truth offends someone, so be it, but I'm not going to be offensive in a name-caller.

No need to do that. Yeah, so that was 2011 that I could write that freely, and all the more now, where you look in college and universities, you know, this long past getting hung up over that word. That's what's behind it, but let's not get hung.

Up over the word. Right, and Dr. White, you and Jeff Neal co-authored the book The Same-Sex Controversy, and I know, if my memory serves me right, this was a book primarily to critique and respond to the theological defenses of homosexuality by liberals or leftists or homosexual advocates.

Am I right on that?

Yeah, Jeff and I had done Chaplin, and so on. The argumentation that was at that time, at the turn of the century.

And the Millennials listening need to know what the West Wing was. Him too, huh?

It's true! Yeah, yeah. If they've ever read the Vatican, they need to know. A series that we've done, all these texts, maybe, they have the public reading.

Yes, in fact, the woman who I originally contacted in Florida, who is the moderator for the metropolitan churches, the churches that advocate homosexual activity, and yet seem to have an appearance in many ways of evangelical churches, she was excited about this idea.

She didn't even hesitate to say that, oh, I could definitely make this happen. And I definitely, right off the top of my head, know at least several, if not more, very capable people that I think would be perfect for what you're asking.

And then, I never heard from her again. So I can only think, and to give her the benefit of the doubt, by the way, she did suffer a personal loss. Her mom passed, so that may have been something to do with it.

But I cannot help but think that perhaps some people on that side, the advocacy of homosexual activity, persuaded her to not even interact with me anymore on this. But I was very happy to get a hold, by recommendation, from a major United Church of Christ congregation in Texas.

I was able to get a hold of Reverend Patrick Rogers, and he is the pastor of the United Church of Christ in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and also Reverend Dwayne J. Robinson, who is the pastor of Called Out Believers in Christ Fellowship.

And they both seem very eager to do this, and as I said at the outset, they do not seem to have a leftist totalitarian axe to grind. I mean, I don't know these men, but as far as every moment of conversation and interaction I've had with them, neither one of them demonstrated that kind of an attitude.

So it will be really interesting to see if God actually does officially bring this to fruition. It's going to be interesting to see how this all develops.

Well, I just hope it does then.

Does Michael even know about that?

Yeah, I don't know, Michael. Did you know about my problems with Barry Lynn after our debate? I did know. I know about a lot of your problems, because I get attacked for being your friend. And then if I knew it, I'd—.

Yes, yes, yes. Well, what happened was—and we did actually know each other back. Equal authority in receiving revelation with CNN. He did not do well in the audience debate, so he—.

Go ahead.

Yeah, go ahead.

I was just going to say, the other thing before that even happened was— I arranged this event, and I made it very clear to Barry that this was going to be videotaped, that he would have equal rights to the masters of the video.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He knew. I mean, he even saw the fact that it was being videotaped. And he had no problem with that until he realized how badly he performed. And then he had a mental meltdown at the pulpit when he was supposed to give his final summation.

He actually said, I'm not going to waste my time with my final summation. I am going to just leave here now, because you people are bigots and hateful, nasty, horrible people. How dare you question anyone's Christianity, which is interesting.

I wonder how he would respond to a neo-Nazi Aryan nation's Christian identity skinhead. I mean, if you're not supposed to question anybody's Christianity, well, what about that? But anyway—.

No, he wasn't. He wasn't. He wasn't considered a long time ago. —date in my journal. But what had happened pretty well then, John Bernis had about God's unity and Jesus not being divine. And he said, Mike, let's just do this.

We're going to do it on international television. Let's crush this thing once and for all. And you'll be up against two guys, and we need someone to join you. And I thought, oh, for one another, that kind of thing for years now.

We have been looking for an opportunity to find two people willing to do a joint debate. People willing to do— —really want to do—.

Yeah, well, let's keep praying that—.

Yeah, it is.

Let's keep praying that neither back out.

Yeah, well, it doesn't sound like they will, but—.

Oh, of course.

—in the cross-examination, and then we'd— —we've done— —radio dialogue with some people there. My heart went out to my—. I want to be your enemy. I want to help you. I'm here as a friend. Now, look—.

Yeah, it's like—.

By the way, I'm not going to— I know the two of you will handle things just—.

Okay.

But again, if folks could really be praying, because it's not just a— I mean, we'd fly in just for that, to do it in Jacksonville, Florida. But the goal is to get a—. And obviously, God helping to work this out.

That's right.

A date.

And by the way, what you were just saying about the uncertainty that a homosexual advocate had, I can't help but be immediately reminded of the arguments that many pro-abortionists have had, where they will say, no one knows when human life begins.

Well, if no one knows it, why would you be gambling that you could be murdering a child? That just—because of the fact that—. That may not be the rhetoric today, but for a long time, the argument was very often, no one knows, so it's okay to do this.

That doesn't even make sense, really.

No, exactly. And that's a great approach there as well. And, you know, especially if you have someone that— Frank Turek and I, Dr. Turek and I did a local debate with two local ministers, but it turns out the two of us are white, the two of them are black, and it ended up being kind of, you know, we were racist bigots by our interpretation of Scripture.

And you knew at a certain point that a card was going to be pulled that was going to be used against us that had nothing to do with what the Bible said, because ultimately there's no possible way that you can use Scripture and argue that God blesses committed same-sex relationships.

And as I've often said in terms of Leviticus, that if something is detestable in God's sight, it doesn't become any less detestable if you do it over and over with the same person.

Right.

You know, we know that there's the argument that love does no harm to its neighbor, and that, you know, for example, Luke Timothy Johnson said, clearly the Bible is against this, but I know what happened to my daughter.

It's a lesbian, you know, and depressed, suicidal, whatever it was, and then found out that you could be a lesbian and a Christian. And James Brownson has a family member, same deal, you know, and that he was once with one viewpoint, and his viewpoint changed based on that.

And you have to come back to Jesus saying it. And with that, once again, God bless you guys. Thanks so much.

Thanks for joining us, Dr. Brown. And we have to go to our first break right now, and please take this time to write down a question for Dr. James R. White at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back, God willing, after these messages. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the remaining 90 minutes or so is Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We were joined earlier by Dr. Michael L. Brown of the Line of Fire program, also of Fire School of Ministry.

He is going to be participating, God willing, in a debate on the same team as my guest Dr. White with two professing Christians who are also advocates of homosexuality. And the theme is going to be, Is Homosexuality Compatible or Consistent with New Testament Obedience?

Is Homosexuality Consistent with New Testament Obedience? And, God willing, that's going to be on Saturday, September 8th at the Switzerland Community Church in St. John's, Florida, which is a suburb of Jacksonville.

And their website, if you want more information on that, is SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org, SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org. And we want to thank Pastor Jake Korn of the Switzerland Community Church for helping me arrange this event.

And also my friend, my dear old friend, Richie Saxon, formerly the pastor of Beth Yeshua House of Jesus in West Savell, Long Island, who has been a friend of mine since the 1980s. In fact, I met him as a very new Christian and young single man when I was with a couple of single Christian brothers looking for this event for singles in Suffolk County, Long Island, in the mid -1980s.

We got lost and providentially wound up at Richie Saxon's parking lot at the Beth Yeshua House of Jesus, and we have remained friends ever since. But if you want to ask a question about the thesis, Is Homosexuality Compatible or Consistent with New Testament Christianity or the New Testament Obedience, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

One question, before I go to any of our listener questions, this is an interesting debate on a number of levels, but one of the interesting factors, as you know, Dr. White, is that you and Dr. Brown are in disagreement over the theology known as Calvinism or Reformed theology, the doctrines of sovereign grace.

And the area where I'm particularly speaking of is the area of total depravity. I remember at one time I was very opposed, I can remember having the knee-jerk reaction against any possibility of a person being born with the proclivity towards homosexuality, until one day you said to me, well, why would that proclivity be different than the whole host of other proclivities that come with being totally depraved?

And I don't know, I mean, Dr. Brown isn't here with us right now, but knowing that he may have a different point of view on that, not having an identical understanding of total depravity as you do, if you could explain that whole situation.

Well, you know, it's interesting. He went into and the Penal Substitute, sure, my friend James White would say I'm being inconsistent. I've heard him do that many times. So I live in the background with them, or anything like that.

A strong understanding of the form was...

And we have some listeners waiting to have their questions asked. We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. And I'm sorry, Grady, but now I have the theme for Sanford and Son in my mind, and I'm probably never going to go away.

But Grady, you have asked, are the people using the moniker gay Christian doing this to gain entrance into the Christian community and to try to get us to accept their sin and lifestyles? I guess that would be a broad-brushing question, but go ahead.

On my assumption at the time, maybe not. I don't know. You have to look at it, and I'll think some...

I believe three times.

Rosario is a wonderfully great... That's where they derive their meaning. That's not where I derive my meaning. I think we... And, yeah, you're eventually in a different direction.

And thanks a lot, Grady, for your question. Give me your full mailing address, because you have just won not only a free copy of Dr. White's book, The Same-Sex Controversy, co-authored with Jeff Neal, but also Dr. Brown's book, Can You Be Gay and Christian?

So those should be arriving at your doorstep within a week or so. Compliments of the publishers, Bethany House and Baker, for Dr. White's book, and compliments of Charisma Media for Dr. Brown's book, and also compliments of CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

We'll be shipping those out to you. And we have to go to our break right now. It's an elongated break. We apologize for this. But it is necessary to keep Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio on the air, and we need to have our commercials aired so that you can patronize them and that the advertising dollars from these sponsors can continue to fuel the existence of the program.

And we also need to take this long break because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, requires of us an elongated break so that they can air their own commercials and public service announcements. So take this time to not only write down questions for Dr. White and send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, but also write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can patronize them.

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Otherwise, order online at cvbbs .com. A couple of announcements before we return to Dr. White. We have coming up this Wednesday a friend of Dr. White's, Tom Buck, is going to be on the program and he is going to be giving his evaluation of the ReVoice conference.

And it was kind of letting the wind out of my sails when I heard Dr. White on the dividing line say, everybody and his cousin is going to be talking about this. So I guess it's going to be old news. But it's still going to be valuable, I'm sure Dr. White would agree, coming from Tom Buck.

And then we have coming up in November, on the 9th and the 10th, we have the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology. Not to be confused with the Reform Town Conference on Quaker Theology.

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And if you want to register, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, and then click on events and scroll down to Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology. God willing, I will be there, Manning and Ironsharp and Siren Exhibitor's Booth.

So you can also register for one of those, an exhibitor's booth of your own, in addition to registering as an attendee of this conference. Then coming up in January, January from the, I believe it's the 17th through the 19th, I'm looking it up right now.

Yes, it is Thursday, January 17th, through Saturday, January 19th, the G3 Conference is being held at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia. And they are also having a special Spanish-speaking edition on Wednesday, January 16th.

And so tell your Spanish-speaking and bilingual friends about that. But the English-speaking conference is from the 17th through the 19th. I will be there for the third year in a row, Manning and Ironsharp and Siren Exhibitor's Booth.

And the speakers this year include John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Conrad M. Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You, the ministry of John MacArthur, Josh Bice, who is the founder and director of the G3 Conference, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio, Stephen Nichols of the Reformation Bible College, the college founded by R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and the list goes on and on and on.