July 17, 2023 Show with Joe Jacowitz & John Waldrip on “Church Safety”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 17th day of July 2023.

Before I introduce my two guests today and the topic we are going to be addressing,

I have some very exciting breaking news. We finally have a final confirmed report to make about my next upcoming debate featuring

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Dr.

White will be debating renowned Bible scholar Dr. James V.

Brownson, who is a retired professor of New Testament at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, who is deeply involved in service to the

Reformed Church in America, RCA, both in theological scholarship and in theological education, and a longstanding member of the

Gospel and Our Culture Network and a contributor to its ongoing research and publication and is the author of a number of books, including

Bible Gender Sexuality, Reframing the Church's Debate on Same -Sex

Relationships. Dr. Brownson was a conservative theologically

Orthodox, and I do not mean by that in Eastern Orthodox, I'm speaking of sound and historically accurate and biblically faithful, but who changed his view on homosexuality when his son, as they say, came out of the closet and confessed to being a homosexual.

Dr. James R. White will be holding to the traditional biblical view on homosexuality.

The theme will be, Is Homosexuality Compatible with Biblical Christianity? And this debate is going to take place

Saturday, September 16th at 3 .30 p .m. at the Spooky Nook Sports Meeting and Events, apparently a gorgeous facility in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, more specifically

Mannheim, Pennsylvania. So if you'd like to register for this event, which is also a part of a three -day

Bible conference, this is just one day of a three -day Bible conference, go to futureofchristendom .org,

futureofchristendom .org. The sooner that you go to that website, the less expensive your registration will be, and the three -day conference includes on Saturday lunch and refreshments.

So, the entire event will be held Friday, September 15th through Sunday, September 17th, but the debate itself is

Saturday, September 16th, 3 .30 p .m. Go to futureofchristendom .org

to register, and we will be continuing to announce this exciting event daily on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I am so thankful that this has finally come to play. A former debate opponent who had agreed to participate with Dr.

White happens to have fallen out of participation, and so we are delighted to have actually the premier scholar who defends homosexuality agreeing to face off with Dr.

White on this vital subject. But today, we are honored with the privilege of having two returning guests to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

One of them has a very significant place in the role and existence of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio because the very live -streaming network that you are hearing

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on is First Love Radio, founded by my guest

Joe Jackiewicz, who is pastor of Christ Bible Church of Pleasanton, California, and founder of First Love Ministries.

Before I introduce my second guest, let me welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Joe Jackiewicz.

Thank you, Chris. What a blessing it is to be with you again and with my good friend, John Waldrop. Yes. Well, tell our listeners about Christ Bible Church of Pleasanton, California.

Well, it was planted in 1990, February, so it's 33 years.

We are a Reformed Baptist church in the San Francisco Bay Area. We're located about 35 miles east of the city itself.

I haven't been in the city for a very long time for obvious reasons. They've been having their problems, but we have a ministry in the

Bay Area, an outreach ministry, evangelistic ministry, reaching out with the gospel. We have a congregation in the city of Pleasanton, and we have four ministries under the auspices of Christ Bible Church, First Love Publications, First Love Radio, First Love Missions, and Grace Bible University.

And now tell us about First Love Ministries, who, as I said earlier, is the ministry that operates

First Love Radio, on which Iron Trip and Zion Radio airs through its live streaming.

First Love was started in its seed form in 1994 during my first mission trip, where we brought to Nigeria 20 ,000 tracks and 2 ,000 books distributed for free of charge.

And so I always had a hunger and a desire to be involved in a literature ministry where we distribute books, booklets, and tracks free of charge, not only in the domestic

United States, but all around the world. But in 2006, we published our first book, which was the

New Testament Missionary, written by Cliff Heller, who was a missionary, he and his wife, to Papua New Guinea for 55 years or so.

And since then, we've published about 70 titles, books, booklets, and tracks.

We have distributed freely all around the world over 320 ,000 books at Bible conferences, pastors' conferences, one -on -one churches, as well as we listeners can order them online at firstloveministries .org.

And so we provide godly literature, sound theological books, books on practical subjects, devotional, apologetics, pastoral topics, on the website, and they're free of charge.

So, including postage paid. So, if you go to firstloveministries .org,

you can click on the literature link, First Love Publications, and all of our titles will be brought up in front of you on our online catalog.

Many of our titles also can be downloaded free of charge through e -books and other digital media.

And then there's First Love Missions. We've been doing mission trips, short mission trips, for a week or two weeks, 10 days, since 1994 with a team of pastors and Christian helpers, two or three times a year, sometimes four times a year.

Dr. John Waldrop and I have gone on several mission trips together to Papua New Guinea and other places.

But we have teams going out. We have a trip taking place in November, God willing, to Nigeria.

We just came back from Nigeria. We had a trip to Nepal and India and the

Philippines. We're in five countries. We have five branch missionary outreach branches in five different countries, including

Kenya as well, where we distribute free literature through the branch leader who oversees the work, as well as a pastor of a church.

And so that's First Love Missions. We're always looking for folks who want to get involved in missions.

And then we have First Love Radio, where you're listening to Iron Sharpens Iron right now, unless you're listening directly to Chris's website and getting the program from his website.

But we supply the feed that he jumps off of. But we have a 24 -hour a day, seven days a week radio station at FirstLoveMinistries .org.

When you come on the homepage, there's a link. Click on it and you'll get 24 -7 radio. We have real solid theological teaching, teachers such as Alistair Begg, Martin Lloyd -Jones,

John Waldrop, yours truly, and about seven or eight other sound teachers of the gospel from a

Reform perspective. We have many other programs, quite a diversity of genre programs, and you can bring up a programming schedule online.

And then there's Grace Bible University, which is still in building form.

We're not promoting it right now, because we're halfway through developing a Bachelor of Theology, and so we're not going to publicize it until we're done with that.

We're about halfway there. Maybe in another year or two we'll be done. So we have those four ministries under the overall heading of FirstLove Ministries.

Missions, radio, Bible study courses through GBU, and FirstLove publications, all free of charge since the beginning.

We proclaim the Word of God through the printed page, through missionary efforts, through Bible conferences, through Bible study courses, and through missions.

Did I say missions? Under the heading of FirstLove Radio. And you can access all of those ministries at FirstLoveMinistries .org.

And don't forget about the website for Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California, which is

ChristBibleChurch .org, ChristBibleChurch .org. Please let our listeners know about a book that you are offering today with FirstLove publications.

Yes, we just finished publishing Dr. W .R. Downing's newest work.

It's called Introduction to Theology, and it introduces the reader to all the main doctrines of the

Christian faith. He writes in a concise, simple form, and it's probably the best simple explanation of basic Christian doctrine that I've ever found.

That's why I published it. It's 130 pages long, 80 pages of theology, and 50 pages of a glossary in the back of the book, which by itself is worth its weight in gold.

Pretty much all the main Christian terms that you will come across in reading doctrine, reading

Christian books, you will find in that glossary. It is a very practical, theological, simple book, and we will send you, if you go to FirstLoveMinistries .org

and click on publications, you'll have our catalog. Click on the order form and order that one book.

You can only order one book at a time. Order Introduction to Theology by W .R.

Downing, and we will send that to you free of charge. It's great to use for training your children, for Bible study classes, for church, for personal reference, for personal growth, etc.

Great. Well, now we come to our second guest scheduled to be on the program with us today,

John Waldrop. And Pastor John Waldrop, why don't you tell us something about the fine church where you are privileged to pastor?

I'm the pastor of Calvary Road Baptist Church in Monrovia, California. It was started in 1975 by a pastor who was very decidedly not in the doctrines of grace camp of the broad stream of Baptist thought and practice.

And I have been the pastor since November of 1985 and had the privilege of serving now for coming up on 38 years.

Our church's website is calvaryroadbaptist .church.

And we also have, in addition to that, a publication website, Classical Baptist Press.

That's classicalbaptist .press, where we also have a significantly smaller version of the ministry that my friend

Joe Jackowitz has with First Love Publications. And so I'm delighted to be back on your program again.

The last time I was on, we talked about a book that I had written, and now we're going to be talking about something entirely differently, and I'm excited about it.

Yes, I am as well. And by the way, folks, this is just day one of a two -day interview that we are having on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio with these two guests.

Tomorrow, July 18th, they will be back to discuss a different topic than we are addressing today.

The topic tomorrow is artificial intelligence, so you might want to mark your calendar to remind you to tune in tomorrow on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio.

But today we are addressing church safety. And, Joe Jackowitz, there are many ways some folk may have things coming into their minds immediately when you hear the phrase church safety, and many of them may be off topic of what you intended to address today.

So why don't you tell us specifically what you mean by your theme that you will be discussing today, church safety.

Well, Chris, good question. It's a big issue today. So many more churches increasingly are being attacked, where you have individuals walking in and murdering attendees and congregants right there where they sit.

We've heard how many churches have been attacked, where numbers have been killed in the last three or four years.

It's been getting worse and worse. Of course, in the general increase of lawlessness and chaos in society, we can expect these things to happen.

We can also expect, in the apostasy of these end times, a general hatred and malice growing towards the church in general.

I think the church, who the people are viewed as religious, is very much the object of the scorn and hatred of the world.

We're already told that by our Lord Jesus, where he said, if they hate me, they will also hate you.

The servant is not greater than his master. So I think we can expect increasing attacks in the coming months and years as we get closer to the end of the world, not just towards individual

Christians because of what they represent in the gospel and their godly life, but also congregations are the object of the hatred and malice of the world.

These church buildings are in very pronounced places on the street corners and on main thoroughfares and boulevards, where unsaved people are regularly reminded of their hatred towards Christianity in general, and Christians in particular, and congregations.

So we see these random acts of murder and violence against churches increasing.

So it has brought up the issue of church security and questions such as, how far do we go in providing physical security for our churches?

I think pastors especially are in a situation, and I think John would agree with me, that it's a topic we can't ignore as leaders over congregation.

And so the question of whether or not it's biblical to have a church security position and policy and a security team in place to protect the congregation is a valid question.

We can't just dismiss it as so many used to dismiss it and say, well, the church is all about spiritual things, the church is all about the gospel, the church is all about discipling and shepherding souls into the kingdom.

I think that is true, that's our first priority, but I think we can't just dismiss and sweep this idea under the rug concerning whether or not, as pastors and church leaders, we look out for the congregation and protect the congregation.

So that would be my opening statement, and we really need to wrestle hard with it. And I myself have been personally challenged in this particular area.

And Pastor Waldrop, have you and Joe really done thorough research as to how to protect local churches?

Yes, I think this came on the world stage several decades ago when a violent group of men went into a church auditorium in South Africa, and one of the church members had a personal handgun on him, and he protected the congregation.

It was not planned. They didn't have a security team in place, but it put him at the forefront of the discussion of whether or not violence could be met with violence in a church situation.

He wrote a book on the topic, and it has become the topic of conversation here in the

United States. There is a man by the name of Dave Grossman, who was a former

Army Ranger, has a Ph .D. in psychology, has written two books that are now required reading for those in the military about the effects of training people to engage in violent acts against other people.

And he now travels around the United States training security teams in different churches, and it brings up a couple of issues that ought to be considered.

I think he's popularized the term sheepdog mentality. You find that in the

New Testament, there's no mention of a sheepdog. There is a mention of an under -shepherd, and I'm not suggesting that the sheepdog mentality is necessarily wrong.

It's just a non -scriptural term, and it conveys a non -scriptural concept of protecting the congregation.

And the constant pushback on churches that desire to protect their congregations in extraordinary ways is that, for instance, if there be those in leadership or in the congregation in the general population carrying firearms, that innocent people are going to be hurt, wounded, or killed because of the fact that you have people that are so -called not trained professionals to do this.

But that kind of talk often is just an excuse to put people in a position of being sitting ducks because they always want the professionals to handle things.

But what is your opinion on firearms in a congregation, and is that a part of your plan of safety?

Well, it is a part of our plan, even though we are close enough to a public school that we are forbidden by law to have weapons.

But thankfully, we have a couple of law enforcement officers who attend our services, and there is no provision under law that disarms them.

And yet some of these experts who I know several guys that are professionals in the security business, some of them are facilities security experts, and some of them are executive protection experts, and they both tell me that law enforcement officers are sometimes not the best alternative for a church situation because they don't have the kind of specific training for a church auditorium that would make them best suited.

And so I think LEOs would disagree with that, but I would remind people that back in the day when they tried to roll out the 911 system for calling for emergencies, the most vigorous opposition came from law enforcement agencies.

They did not want people to be able to dial 911 to call police to the scene because they wanted to maintain control over whether or not police would be dispatched to a location.

Well, sometimes you see a little bit of that now, and should there be time and should you have interest,

I'll share with you about some of the conversations I've had with various law enforcement agencies in my area.

Why don't you do that when we return from our break because we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, and don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the

SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program.

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close -circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off -site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code -activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureComm Group has it. We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network.

Whether it's a Wi -Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com.

That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining

Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

Christ. This is Pastor David Reese of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com,

that's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831.

That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them

Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland, sends you.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co -host of the Just Thinking Podcast, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Andrew Rappaport, the Founder and Executive Director at Striving for Eternity Ministries, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Mark Rimaldi, Pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Christopher Cookston, Pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, Pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio praise

God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the

American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring, or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications,

Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step -by -step through every stage of the process, and even hold a high -tech internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.

From rough design to digital model, to photorealistic image, to wax prototype model, to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations.

Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today.

Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager,

Brian Wilson, and the entire family thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget, folks, royaldiadem .com is still offering

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio this mind -blowing opportunity where we will get 100 % of the profits from any sale of jewelry at royaldiadem .com

simply by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener mentioning that they heard about royaldiadem .com

at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. So whether you are buying something they already have in stock at royaldiadem .com,

valued at $100 or more, or if you're having a custom -designed piece of jewelry created, like an engagement ring, like taking your church logo, your parachurch ministry logo, your seminary logo, your denomination logo, or anything like that, or anything that your imagination and creativity can conjure up in your brain, they will take what is in your brain and turn it into a mind -blowing piece of physical jewelry.

And you can be assured that it's going to come out exactly the way you intend it.

In fact, exceeding your expectations, because you are involved in every single step of the process.

Through computer software, no matter where in the world you live, you will be watching every stage of the design and development process where you have the ability to say, wait a minute,

I don't like that, change that, or hey, I just came up with a new idea, put that in there.

And this will go on and on until they finally send you a wax prototype, which is sent to you for further scrutiny and examination.

And when you okay the wax prototype, they finally make a final piece of jewelry. I have seen firsthand the mastery that they have over custom -designing jewelry at royaldiadem .com.

So please, if you have any intention on buying or having a custom -designed piece of jewelry created for you or someone you love, please go to royaldiadem .com

very soon, because we have no idea when they're going to pull the plug on this amazing offer where we get 100 % of the profits.

That's royaldiadem .com. Always mention Chris Arms of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Joe Jackowitz and John Waldrip, and we are discussing church safety.

And right before the break, Pastor Waldrip, you were about to talk about your conversations and counsel from police officers.

Yes. An associate of mine and I are involved in the development of a smartphone app, which would make it possible.

It usually takes a person up to five seconds to decide whether the sound he heard was a firecracker or a backfire or a gunshot.

But a technological device like on a smartphone can decide instantaneously, that was gunfire you heard.

And so we are interested in developing a smartphone app that can be used not only by people in their day -to -day life, but also in a church setting.

And when we went to propose the idea with law enforcement officials, they soundly and roundly condemned it.

And then I pointed out to them, but you guys were also opposed to the 911 system.

So is it an issue of you don't want anyone encroaching upon your perceived area of expertise, or do you really think this would be bad?

I think that because a church, for example, such as ours, we occupy a building that's 100 years old.

It was designed back in the day when no one in the culture would have attacked anyone in a church.

Of course, nowadays, architects that design church buildings take into effect or take into account choke points and things like that.

And there's things you can do with architecture that you can't do with a building of our age.

And so I'm of the opinion that technology is a remedy that we need to explore, and here's why.

The kinds of people that are threats to a church congregation run the gamut from someone who's just a random crazy guy who happens to have a firearm, and he's barely skilled enough to use the weapon.

Thankfully, most of the attacks that have been at churches and schools have been armed guys who were very, very poorly trained.

If these guys had the training that Pastor Joe used to provide back in the day when he was a

Marine Corps instructor, it would be dangerous. But the question is, can a congregation have a security team with such a high level of skill that they can actively and successfully defend against someone with skills?

And when you have a security team that's that good, do you have the unintended consequence of alarming the congregation about the threats to the place where people begin staying home?

Because people imagine that their homes are safer than a church auditorium.

In fact, homes are not safer than church auditoriums. The reason they're not safer is because of slip and falls and things like that, but a person is always safer in a church auditorium than they are at home, and yet that's not the way people think.

And so it's a vastly more complex and nuanced problem, and the way pastors deal with it can have a decided impact upon the mothers with young children and the aged and the infirm who imagine that they would be safer at home when in fact their soul's safety, as well as their physical safety, dictates that they should be in the house of God.

Pastor Joe Jakowicz, don't you think it almost seems like a no -brainer? In fact,

I think it is a no -brainer. I think the only way that you would not conclude otherwise is that if you are brainwashed by leftist propaganda.

But wouldn't an intruder, an armed intruder, intending to do harm to any church or school, think twice and perhaps even change their mind completely if they knew by signage and other ways that this building is protected by those carrying firearms?

I mean, it seems like an obvious answer, which would be yes, they would be more intimidated to enter a building like that.

Oh, yeah. I think that if they had sufficient notice, then there would be less tendency to the individual attacking the church or the people in it, or both.

And I think if we just step back for a second, what most believers are asking in their mind, because there's this confusion and conflict between the spiritual and the physical.

And in some situations, believers think there's a tension between defending oneself with firearms or physically defending yourself against attacks versus the spiritual principle of if your enemy attacks you, don't fight back.

And the spiritual principle there that Jesus taught, love your enemies. And because there's such a lack of good teaching today, most people are left up to interpreting verses like love your enemies based on their own imagination.

And they think to love their enemies means they have to be passive completely.

And any threat of physical, bodily, or any other kind of harm by others to them means they have to lay everything down and let them do anything they want, including harming our families and ourselves.

But there is a balance of teaching in Scripture that brings harmony to both of those positions, which seem incompatible, but the

Bible makes it very clear. For example, the idea of protecting yourself certainly is rooted in both the

Old Testament and the New Testament. In the Old Testament, there's the concept of the watchman.

In Ezekiel chapter 33, one through nine. And so God has set in place certain watchmen to protect us.

There's a watchman over the nation. They are called politicians and police. And in Romans chapter 13, one through four, we're told that all authorities of God are of God, and God has raised up the authorities to protect us from evil.

Then there were the gatekeepers over the temple and the house of God. In 1

Chronicles 9, we see there was a class of men that were raised up and chosen by the

Jewish leadership to make sure they watched who was going in and out of the temple, and no one unqualified would be allowed inside the temple.

No Gentiles would be allowed in. And they were gatekeepers to protect the church from spiritual poisoning or protect the temple and the

Jewish people in their worship from that. But there was also the gatekeepers to protect from physical harm.

Then there are watchmen over the church. The New Testament definition of a watchman is a pastor or a deacon.

And we read about their role in 1 Peter 5, which is primarily spiritual. But the

Bible says faith without works is dead. And the way we show our faith is by very often providing physical help and comfort, which would include physical protection and security, for people we love and people we are responsible for.

And so I think there is a very valid place of the concept of the watchman in a

New Testament leader like a pastor or a deacon to watch over the congregation.

Obviously, our primary calling is to provide, as church leaders, spiritual leadership.

But then there's the watchmen over the church as well to help with physical needs. Do not most of our churches have individuals or ministries designed to pick up people, to take them to the doctor, to minister to the elderly, to provide physical care in some way that we may let our light shine among men because they see our good works and glorify our

Father in heaven. And then there's the idea of the watchman over the house, the home, that is.

Husbands and fathers are to not only provide physically for their family, like food and clothing, not only are they to provide spiritual ministry by training up their children and loving their wife and teaching his wife and providing spiritual leadership, but he is also to provide for their physical needs.

He that cannot provide for his own family is worse than an infidel, speaking of the breadwinner of the family.

And I think the same is true with physical protection in the home. We take our children to the doctor when they're sick, don't we?

Anyone who doesn't protect their family in terms of a husband or a father or doesn't protect his wife or children would be considered irresponsible.

So let me sum all this up. That's the physical part of it, and there's definitely a place for physical protection of the church, physical security in the church building and the church property and the people themselves.

There's a place for protection of the home in terms of husbands and fathers rendering physical care and physical protection, but the spiritual issue still hasn't been fully addressed.

And here's the bottom line with it. The bottom line is, as Christians, when we are called upon to protect our families and when we call the police, are you not going to call the police when there's a home invasion of your home?

Are you not going to protect the church members? Of course. But the difference is whether you go on the offensive or on the defensive.

To fulfill the law of love where God says to love your enemies and where God says for the sake of the gospel we're to suffer.

If someone threatens you, if someone does physical harm towards you because you're suffering persecution for the sake of the gospel, the

Bible clearly teaches we are not to protect ourselves.

We're doing it for the glory of Christ, the sake of the gospel, and there's a very important element of suffering related to persecution for the gospel's sake.

But then there's an element there where we are given biblical precedent to protect ourselves, but in a defensive way.

We are not to have anger or malice in our hearts when some robber or criminal wants to kill my child or is going for my child to hurt my child.

I'm going to step between that robber and my child, and I'm going to protect my child,

I'm going to protect my wife. But as a Christian, I am warned not to do so with aggravated and hateful motives.

It is just to get this guy out of the way until he stops seeking to do harm to my family.

That's a defensive measure while the heart is still guarded from hatred and malice.

And I think the Bible gives us that latitude to carry over and roll over that principle into church security.

Are you there, Joe? I'm here. Okay. Well, continue your thought.

So that's the bottom line. We are called as husbands, fathers, church officers, pastors, deacons, we are called to protect at least at a minimum our congregations, our people, our families from harm.

But to do so in a defensive way, only as long and as far until the oppression and the attack stops.

Amen. I agree completely with Pastor Jackowitz. Let me add something, if I might.

Some years ago, we had an incident in our congregation that was potentially violent.

No one was actually harmed. But it spurred action on our part.

And we reached out to the Los Angeles Police Department SWAT Special Weapons and Tactics Team.

You remember many years ago, there was an incident in North Hollywood, California, in which some bank robbers were fully armed, fully protected with automatic weapons.

And it was a debacle for the Los Angeles Police Department.

And they responded. And one of the private companies that was started was started by the guy that was the on -site commander of that situation.

And he gave us some interesting advice along what

Pastor Joe says about how a church can have and should have a usher, greeter, and security team, as is mentioned in the book that my church member wrote.

And he pointed out that if you have, for example, a guy standing out in front of the church, one of your church men, and a guy walks up the sidewalk, if you will approach him with an extended hand and a smile and attempt to greet him, if he's a bad guy, number one, he will not want to make eye contact with you.

Number two, he will not want to stop and shake your hand. Number three, he will try to go around you to get into the building.

And these specialists in site security pointed out that guy is not to be let into the auditorium.

He is not to be let into the place of worship. In other words, the minimal requirement for you to get in to where the congregation is, is you better be willing to look at me.

You better be willing to smile at me. You better be willing to shake my hand. You better be willing to engage me in a little chit chat, or else

I'm going to deny you permission to enter. In fact, pick up right where you left off, Pastor Waldrop.

We have to go to our midway break. Please be patient with us, folks. The midway break is always longer than the other breaks.

We have to allow Grace Life Radio to air their public service announcements while we air our globally heard commercials.

So please do not go away, because we are going to be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the 8 -volume commentary on the

Theology and Ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr.

Joseph Morecraft. It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the 8 -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com westminstercommentary .com

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. If you love

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

Patafuoco demonstrating the reliability of Scripture. To advance the cause of the

Gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.

Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CVBBS which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.

CVBBS has been a family -owned book service since 1987 operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

They seek to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical and otherwise faith -insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Order online at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com

Or you can order by phone at 1 -800 -656 -0231.

That's 1 -800 -656 -0231. Please let our friends at CVBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ, today and always.

Becoming a Parent My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus. Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

That's l -i -y -f -c dot org. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of East Fort Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the

Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew

Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Creatures to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And always remember, folks, make solid -ground -books .com

your very first stop for all of your gift -giving needs. They bring back into print and publish for the very first time nothing but the finest in Christian literature dating back to the

Protestant Reformation, extending forward to our current day, including such modern -day authors as Dr.

James R. White. And by the way, one of my guests, I am echoing back to myself.

I don't know why that's happening, but thank you, right now it's not happening. But now it's happening again.

So I'm not sure if it's Joe or John, but I'm echoing back to myself through your computer.

Anyway, as I was saying, so please go to solid -ground -books .com frequently.

Purchase generously. Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before I return to my discussion with Joe Jakiewicz and John Waldrop on the theme church safety,

I have some very important announcements to make. Folks, if you really love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves,

I'm urging you please go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion. And if you prefer snail mail, sending in a check the old -fashioned way at your local post office to a physical address, well, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com,

where you can mail your checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you want to advertise with us, whether it is your church, para -church ministry, your business, your private professional practice like a law firm or a medical firm, or perhaps it's just a special event that you want to promote, whatever it is, as long as it's compatible with what

I believe, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

So go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now, and also send me your e -mails if you want to advertise to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. Also, folks, please remember, I never want anybody giving less money than you are accustomed to giving to your own local church on the

Lord's Day in order to give Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a financial gift. Please never do that. In other words, don't cut into the finances that you have set aside for your

Lord's Day giving to your own church in order to bless us financially. Never do that. Also, if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, wait until you are more financially stable and back on your feet before you send us a financial gift.

Two things are clear in the Bible about finances. We are commanded to provide for our church and our family.

We are not commanded to provide for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, obviously. But if you love the show, you don't want it to disappear, and you have extra money, above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, you have extra money collecting interest in the bank, extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, and you really love the show and you don't want it to go away, go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, folks, don't forget about the three -day

Bible conference that I am involved in orchestrating along with my friends at the

Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society. That's going to take place Friday, September 15th, through Sunday, September 17th, in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

The Future of Christendom 2023 Conference, which will feature on Saturday, September 16th, a debate between Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and world -renowned Bible scholar James V.

Brownson, who is defending homosexuality as an acceptable biblical and Christian practice and worldview.

So, if you would like more information on registering for that, go to futureofchristendom .org,

futureofchristendom .org. The earlier you register, the more cheap or the less expensive it will be.

And so I hope that you register soon, and I look forward to seeing you there.

Finally, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally sound, theologically solid church, like Christ Bible Church of Pleasanton, California, and Calvary Road Baptist Church of Monrovia, California, well,

I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and no matter where in the world you live,

I may be able to help you find a church, sometimes, as I have done with many people in our audience on all parts of the planet

Earth, within a few minutes from their homes. That may be you, too, if you send me an email address to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com,

chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question on church safety to Joe Jackowitz and John Waldrip, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

I had to cut you off before the midway break, Pastor John Waldrip. If you could pick up where you left off.

Well, I will try, Chris, although I have the attention span of a goldfish, and so I may not win.

Let me just commend those men and sometimes few women who are involved in the

Usher Corps and the Greeter Corps and the security team of congregations because they do such a good job, and it's such a thankless job, and as an undershepherd,

I have concern for them because, you know, when you absent yourself from the means of grace, when you're outside the auditorium when the preaching is taking place or when you're in the auditorium but your attention is distracted and you're concerned with the doors and people entering and leaving, there's a price that you pay for that, and sometimes people in congregations are not aware of the fact that the people who put themselves out to help ensure their safety and security during worship are paying a spiritual price for that that they have to make up for some other way.

They have to devote additional time to their personal devotional life and their

Bible study and their prayer time because they're not getting the encouragement from fellow believers that everybody else in the congregation is getting, and so I'm committed to the safety of the congregation.

I know that Pastor Joe is. I know that you are, and I just wanted to, on the air, give a public shout -out to those who are involved in security teams at the various congregations that they're a part of.

And I know that you were, before the break, discussing your involvement in getting counsel from local police departments.

I don't know if you had concluded your discussion on that, but there was some disagreement, I know, between yourself and police departments on what they thought was appropriate, and you were baffled by it.

I am a strong proponent of law enforcement.

I've always been a strong supporter. The situation is sometimes that people who have an established and very clearly defined area of responsibility sometimes are very jealous of what they see defined for them, and sometimes a technological advance is perceived by them to possibly be threatening.

Decades ago, when they tried to roll out the 911 system, law enforcement agencies around the country came out very, very strongly opposed to the implementation of 911.

And I have talked to a number of chiefs of police in our area about a smartphone app that I'm interested in developing.

I haven't developed it because I don't have access to the kind of code writer that can do that.

But the technology is there for anyone with a smartphone to have instantaneous feedback available to them about the sound of gunfire.

The city of Los Angeles has spent $10 million in one part of the city to set up a series of microphones where they can triangulate the sound of gunfire and instantly locate where a gunshot came from.

But do you realize that if you had a smartphone app in the hands of a dozen people and those phones heard the crack of gunfire, the software currently exists for that triangulation to be instantaneously available and available to report to the police that there was a gunshot that took place here and it took place three seconds ago, and the police could roll on that so much more quickly.

Alas, the development of the app has not proceeded. It would be of significant help to missionaries in foreign countries.

I've talked to two very, very large religious organizations about the desirability of this kind of app.

Both of them have indicated that they were all for it. But then both of them were immediately embroiled in moral challenges that distracted their leadership.

So I think we're on the verge of kind of a leap forward.

It may bleed over into tomorrow's topic, AI, but I think that the real solution for improving and enhancing safety in congregations is a technological one that could be in the form of a smartphone app that would be accessible to anyone in the congregation.

We have an anonymous listener, and I'll have Pastor Joe Jackowitz answer first.

The anonymous listener says, I was shocked and dismayed and baffled when

I read a number of years ago an article by the world -renowned author and theologian

John Piper. I have loved nearly every book I've ever read by John Piper and have loved nearly every sermon

I have ever heard by John Piper. But John Piper said in writing that if some criminals had broken into his home and they were about to murder his wife and children, if he had a firearm, he would not kill them because he knows that would send these men to hell if they died.

I think this is an absurd, outlandish and unbiblical way of thinking. And in fact,

I know that John Piper is reformed and he should know as a Calvinist that men do not control the eternal destinies of other men.

I think that's an excellent point. And Pastor Joe Jackowitz, if you could respond to that. In fact,

I know that what our listener is saying is accurate because I read the article and there was at the time, especially of its writing, there was a lot of controversy over it.

I don't know if John Piper ever changes mind on it. There is a possibility that he did. But Joe, if you could respond.

Sure. Well, I would agree with your listener who wrote that question or made that comment and not

John Piper. Now, again, as long as we keep the biblical principle in mind is that in protecting our family in a unique situation from harm by an attacker who irrationally is hurting or attempting to hurt our family members or church congregation, we're to be in the defensive, not the offensive.

That's the position. We're to restrain or disarm the person with the least amount of damage.

That's the biblical idea in keeping with the law of love and without any malice in our hearts towards the individual.

I think the Bible is very clear in the matter of the approach of the

Christian. We are in a situation where the

Bible says a prudent man foresees evil and hides himself, but the simple pass on and are punished.

And so a wise man, a prudent man anticipates or sees evil coming and prepares for it.

Right. You put an alarm system in your home, don't you? You have an alarm system in your car.

Why? Because you don't want any harm to come to the physical property that you own. Well, how much more if you have family members?

All right. You want to protect them. You have a church situation where you have a congregation of 50 or 100 or a thousand and you love these people, their brethren.

Wouldn't it be prudent? Wouldn't it be wise, especially if you live in a place next to Dr.

Waldrop, like in L .A. where the city is drowning in lawlessness and murder, the murder rate, the crime rate is skyrocketing in L .A.

Personal attacks. It's unbelievable what's going on, not only in L .A., but in most blue cities across the nation.

All crime in all areas are increasing to have a minimum of security there that might make the difference between protecting someone or one of your members actually face harm.

Let me give you a couple of suggestions. You can incorporate a minimum of physical security.

You can put security cameras in. You can you can put security alarms in.

That won't help you, obviously, to prevent someone from walking in the back door during a worship service and with guns blazing.

But at least for the other 22 or 21 hours during the week, you would be able to play back a camera feed.

Or you would have an alarm go off where the police would respond and identify an attacker who was meant on hurting your congregation ultimately and get this guy out of the way.

Of course, that depends on whether the police would put somebody in jail without letting them out immediately on bail.

So that would be a minimum. The least you can do, if your church has the funds, is to hire a security consulting firm to come out and provide a security assessment.

That assessment would identify all the weak and vulnerable areas of your physical security, especially when the congregation is meeting for worship or prayer meeting or Bible study or special events.

You could look at your budget and you can decide what funds you have to implement such physical security.

Another thing is the matter of security guards. Now, obviously, most churches cannot afford security guards, especially armed guards, because you're not looking at unarmed security.

You want an armed security officer there if you can afford it. But there's an increasing number of pastors today using armed members of their own congregation to be ready to help in an emergency.

And so if you have a police officer who's willing, as a member of your congregation, to stand by and be ready to intervene if an attacker is coming into your church, then you should sit down with that person and have a plan, know what you're talking about, base it all on Scripture and biblical conviction, and have that member sit in a place that's strategically identified to intervene if a problem happens.

You could do the same thing with deacons and ushers. You can sit down with them. First, the elders need to present this to the congregation and let them know how you feel about physical security, do some teaching on it.

And depending on how much budget you have for such a thing, you can have armed members of the congregation or deacons or ushers sit in locations that can identify evil coming before an attacker comes into the church and really shoots up the place.

So there's something you can do. And I think most security firms today are taking into consideration the number of attacks done by firearms now, since it's a regular problem in society.

Most security firms are addressing that issue and keeping that in mind when churches call them.

Many, many churches over the last few years have contacted security consulting firms to get their feedback on how to prevent such situations.

And we can do all of this while being faithful to the biblical principles involved of knowing when to intervene and knowing not when to intervene when we're under attack.

By the way, Pastor Joe, perhaps if you could turn your volume down a little bit on your microphone, because it is a little bit overmodulating.

Well, going back to the theological problems with John Piper's comments, the thing that is odd about that comment is that even if we had in our power to send people to hell, as it were, as John Piper said that he refused to kill these hypothetical murderers in his home, because being murderers, they would go to hell if he killed them.

The thing that makes no sense about that is that so you want these murderers to live, leave your home, and then murder other people that they would be sending to hell.

People that on a human plane of innocence were innocent victims.

When we use the term innocent, we know that there is no perfect person. But when we use it in a legal sense, we're talking about innocent victims that are being sent to hell according to Piper's understanding.

And by the way, I'm echoing back on somebody's computer right now. So I'm not sure why that is.

But Pastor Waldrop, isn't that just biblically indefensible?

Yes, it is. I read the article also. I think that Pastor Joe's response is extremely well thought out.

As the father of law enforcement officers, I have no doubt that he's given this a great deal of thought and consideration.

And it's reflected in his answer. And I would ask

John Piper, as a believer, if you were a police officer and you were home and you were off duty, you would let someone shoot you and your family?

What's the difference? I think there is a wild inconsistency in the application of biblical truth to his situation.

I don't know what motivates him to do that. There's all kinds of guesses that could be involved.

But I don't think the Bible supports the position of pacifism in the face of an imminent threat to yourself and to your family.

Yes, people, even professing reform people at times, contradict the theology they claim to be their own.

And come up with this picture of Jesus that is unbiblical.

And we have to remember that Jesus even told his disciples to make sure that they had a sword.

Why? Why was that? I mean, so I don't know.

Like I said, I don't know if John Piper has maintained this ridiculous view or not, but I hope not.

And by the way, Anonymous, if you email me your full name and full mailing address, we will not divulge that over the air, obviously.

You have won a free copy of a book that Pastor John Waldrop is shipping to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

And tell us about this book again, Pastor Waldrop. Yes, one of the men in our church, and he happens to be the head of our security team and our head usher.

He goes by the pen name Joseph Brewer because he's a coffee lover.

He likes to drink Joe, and he likes to brew Joe. But he has a book entitled

A Practical Guide for Church Ushers and Greeters. It's also available in Spanish, the subtitle

With Some Thoughts on Security. And he's obviously given a great deal of thought to it.

I have sent out a copy of his book to a number of pastors across the country.

It's been well received. It provokes good thought and reflection by pastors, by elders, by deacons, by church members who are concerned about such things.

And it's not a long read. It's about 70 pages, but I think it would be well worth the time taken for any pastor, any church member, any deacon to read it.

Okay, well, we'll ship that out to you, Anonymous. And thanks to John Waldrop.

And also thanks to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, a major sponsor of this program.

We'll be shipping out to you at no charge to you or to us. We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, who says,

I was just wondering if John Piper's comment that he would not kill an intruder who threatened harm to his property or family also meant that he would not shoot them.

I would think he would not be against shooting someone if he would not intend to kill.

Well, when you shoot somebody, Pastor Joe and Pastor John, if it's in a life or death situation, shouldn't your intention be to kill?

Well, I think your response, I think the training of law enforcement is that you stop the threat, whatever it takes to stop the threat.

And typically when you're using a handgun, most people don't realize that handguns are far, far less effective, far, far less powerful than a long gun.

And so sometimes police officers get in trouble when people say, well, you know, he shot his weapon five times.

Why didn't he just shoot the gun out of his hand? No, you can't do that. You aim for center mass and you continue to squeeze rounds until there is no longer a threat because you're dealing with you're dealing with a weapon that while it is very, very dangerous, it is vastly less powerful than any long gun.

And so you once you start shooting, you need to keep shooting until the threat is and has ended for the sake of your family and for the sake of yourself.

Amen. And Pastor Joe, you have any comment? Yeah, I think that rule is correct.

I agree with John. If there's an imminent threat of your life being taken, if if to dovetail the biblical principle involved here, it depends on the situation.

But I think you should shoot to shoot to hurt the individual to stop the threat, as John said.

But to you, we're not police officers, so we don't have the training.

And to keep that in mind when an intruder is there, center mass and keep shooting until the gun is empty, until the threat stops.

I think that, you know, John is looking at it from a law enforcement perspective or a mindset, but most people just pick up a gun and just start shooting.

I think the believer needs to try to keep in mind, but at the moment when there is imminent danger, we really don't think about these things.

But to shoot an arm or a leg or maybe in the hip or somewhere to stop the attack would be preferable because you just want to you want to prevent the attack.

Now, again, there's a lot of variables here. You're not most people wouldn't be able to do that. They would just shoot at the person, just point and aim, usually the center mass.

But I think we need to keep in mind, make sure that we're not looking to kill somebody just for the sake of killing.

Right. And I know that's not what you're saying, John. But I would just say that although we're not killing somebody for the sake of killing them,

I have no problem with the idea of a Christian murdering, not murdering. I'm sorry, with a

Christian ending the life of an intruder who is intending to harm somebody's spouse and children.

I don't think that they should be all that concerned unless it is very clear that they could wound this person and stop them in their tracks.

But if it is something where you have to make a decision on whether your children, your spouse are going to be harmed, that man is dead as far as I'm concerned.

And I don't think I don't think that's a sin either. I think you're I think you're right. Our goal is not vengeance.

Our goal is not retribution. Our goal is to stop the threat. And we should

I think in my mind, I cannot in good conscience go one step farther than stop the threat.

The vengeance is God's problem. The retribution, that's God's problem or law enforcement or the judicial system.

My goal is to stop the threat. Well, we're going to our final break right now.

And if anybody has an additional question, send it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnson at Gmail dot com. Chris Arnson at Gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

And Cindy from Findlay, Ohio. Make sure we have your mailing address because you've also won the copy of the book that our friend

Pastor John Waldrop is giving away today. So don't go away, folks. We're going to be right back after these messages.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd.

On a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 percent discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 percent discount.

Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 percent discount off the registration fee.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program.

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close -circuit television, access control and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off -site viewing and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureComm Group has it. We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain and secure your local network.

Whether it's a Wi -Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com.

That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining

Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests and kings.

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline and exalt

Christ. This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com

Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the

ReformRookie .com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the ReformRookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keach's Catechism and the

Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my

Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goat skin tanned in Italy used for my

Nestle All in 28th edition, with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one of a kind work of art.

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to PTLBibleRebinding .com.

That's PTLBibleRebinding .com. Hi, this is

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Getting a driver's license. Running a cash register. Flipping burgers. Passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s. And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Iron Radio If you love

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

Patafuco demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please make note that the new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, is gcbc -nj .org.

So disregard the website in that commercial. The new and correct website is gcbc -nj .org

for Grace Covenant Baptist Church of Flemington, New Jersey. We're now back with my two guests today,

Joe Jackowitz and John Waldrip. And I understand that you wanted to put in a plug for another book,

Pastor Joe. Pastor Joe, are you there? Yes, I'm here.

Thank you. The book that we wanted to offer to your listeners is

Introduction to Theology by Dr. W .R. Downing. It's a simple yet very thorough review of the basic doctrines of the

Christian faith. It's comprehensive yet it's simple. It's a short 80 pages and a 50 page glossary is attached to the back of the book.

Total 130 pages. It's really ideal for teaching, for personal Bible study, and it's a simple explanation of every major doctrine in the

Bible connected with salvation and otherwise, actually. It's offered free of charge, postage paid.

If you go to our website at firstloveministries .org, that's firstloveministries .org,

all one word. And on the homepage, click on First Love Publications and just follow the prompts, order the book.

And you can only order one book at a time. But there's also many, many other books you can review our catalog.

And also, we want to invite your listeners to tune in to First Love Radio. It's a 24 -7

Christian radio station with music, many great teaching programs. Actually, our co -host or your other guest, my friend

John Waldrop, has a program on First Love Radio, which I highly invite and encourage your listeners to listen to his teaching program on firstloveradio .org.

Or you could just go to firstloveministries .org and click on the radio button that comes up right on the homepage.

And it'll take you to the radio website, and you can click on the link on top of the page that will show the radio schedule, which programs play when.

And Pastor John Waldrop, could you provide a summary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this topic?

And then when you're done, we can have Joe come back and give his summary of thoughts.

Yes, I think that despite the press and the notoriety and the heartache and the tragedy that is so widely publicized, if you just look at the hard facts and the numbers, just objective reality, a person is safer in a church auditorium than he is at home.

And so if you're ever wondering whether or not to go to church, and the concern is for your physical safety, go to church.

You're safer there than you are at home. At home, people slip, people fall, people electrocute themselves, all of these kinds of things.

And that's not even dealing with the spiritual danger. You always want to avail yourself of the means of grace.

And I am one that's absolutely committed to the benefit to everyone of the preaching of the

Word of God and the fellowship and the exhortation that comes when Christians gather together for worship in public.

And that said, it is a wonderful thing that churches are becoming more mindful of security issues.

But I'm of the opinion that we have yet to see a real progress in the area of congregational security until we take advantage of the technological opportunities that are out there in the form of a personal smartphone app that could be developed, that should be developed, if someone would simply write the code for it.

And I think it would be a wonderful enhancement to every worshipper's peace of mind and tranquility when they attend church with their brothers and sisters in Christ.

By the way, I slip, fall down, and electrocute myself in my home every single day. Just kidding.

Pastor Joe Jackowitz, if you could summarize your thoughts today. Well, I think we need to ask what the bottom line question is for us.

How do we function in the light of God's sovereignty and our responsibility? Our procedures are not secretive, nor are they blatantly obvious, but they're positively intentional when it comes to church security and safety.

We want folks who attend our services to be safe, yes. We want them to come to church, worship, and then go home with no concerns about their physical safety.

They are sheep, and individuals on our security team are the sheepdogs.

And the sheep come to graze in this pasture, and our well -trained and prayerful sheepdogs constantly sniff the perimeters to detect and cancel the plans of any wolf that might be lurking near us.

So our sheepdogs are watchful, and they are ready. And that's the way we do things.

So, indeed, God is sovereign, but safety is of the Lord, and our trust is in Him.

And by God's grace, we'll use the brains that He gave us. I like the old saying, it's not biblical,

Chris, but it's true. We're to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. Amen.

Well, I want to plug, once again, the company that sponsors this show, whose ads you're hearing every day,

SecureCommGroup .com, SecureCommGroup .com, for all your security needs for church, home, business, industry, and so on.

SecureCommGroup .com. Make sure you mention Chris Orens and the Vine Trap and Zion Radio. I also want to remind you of the website for Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California.

ChristBibleChurch .org. ChristBibleChurch .org. Of course, FirstLoveMinistries .org.

FirstLoveMinistries .org. And Calvary Road Baptist Church in Moravia, California.

It can be found at CalvaryRoadBaptist .Church. CalvaryRoadBaptist .Church.

I want to thank both of you men for doing such a fine job as my guest today. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater