July 17, 2023 Show with Joe Jacowitz & John Waldrip on “Church Safety”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports

legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning

issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 17th day

of July, 2023.

Before I introduce my two guests today and the topic we are going to be

addressing, I have some very exciting breaking news.

We finally have a final confirmed report

to make about my next upcoming debate featuring Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

Dr. White will be debating renowned Bible scholar Dr.

James V. Brownson, who is a retired professor of New Testament at

Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, who is deeply involved in service to the Reformed

Church in America, RCA, both in theological scholarship and in theological education,

and a longstanding member of the Gospel in Our Culture Network and a contributor to its ongoing

research and publication, and is the author of a number of books, including Bible

Gender Sexuality, reframing the church's debate on same -sex

relationships.

Dr. Brownson was a conservative theologically orthodox, and I do not mean

by that in Eastern Orthodox.

I'm speaking of sound and historically accurate and biblically faithful,

but who changed his view on homosexuality when his son, as they say, came

out of the closet and confessed to being a homosexual.

Dr. James R. White will be holding to the traditional biblical view on

homosexuality.

The theme will be, Is Homosexuality Compatible with Biblical Christianity?

And this debate is going to take place Saturday, September 16th at 3 .30 p .m.

at the Spooky Nook Sports Meeting and Events, apparently a gorgeous

facility in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, more specifically Mannheim, Pennsylvania.

So, if you'd like to register for this event, which is also a part of a three -day Bible

conference—this is just one day of a three -day Bible conference—go to futureofchristendom .org.

The sooner that you go to that website, the less expensive your registration will

be, and the three -day conference includes on Saturday lunch

and refreshments.

So, the entire event will be held Friday, September 15th through Sunday, September

17th, but the debate itself is Saturday, September 16th, 3 .30 p .m.

Go to futureofchristendom .org to register, and we will be continuing to

announce this exciting event daily on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

I am so thankful that this has finally come to play.

A former debate opponent who had agreed to participate with Dr. White

happens to have fallen out of participation, and so

we are delighted to have actually the premier scholar who defends homosexuality

agreeing to face off with Dr. White on this vital

subject.

But today, we are honored with the privilege of having two returning guests to

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

One of them has a very significant place in the role and existence

of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, because the very live streaming network that you are hearing

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio on is First Love Radio, founded by my guest,

Joe Jackiewicz, who is pastor of Christ Bible Church of Pleasanton, California,

and founder of First Love Ministries.

Before I introduce my second guest, let me welcome you back to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio,

Pastor Joe Jackiewicz.

Thank you, Chris.

What a blessing it is to be with you again and with my good friend, John Waldrop.

Yes, well, tell our listeners about Christ Bible Church of Pleasanton, California.

Well, it was planted in 1990, February, so it's 33 years.

We are a Reformed Baptist church in the San Francisco Bay Area.

We're located about 35 miles east of the city itself.

I haven't been in the city for a very long time for obvious reasons.

They've been having their problems, but we have a ministry in the Bay Area, an outreach

ministry, evangelistic ministry, reaching out with the gospel.

We have a congregation in the city of Pleasanton,

and we have four ministries under the auspices of Christ Bible Church,

First Love Publications, First Love Radio, First Love Missions, and Grace Bible University.

And now tell us about First Love Ministries, who, as I said earlier, is the ministry

that operates First Love Radio, on which Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio

airs through its live streaming.

First Love was started in its seed form in

1994 during my first mission trip, where we brought to

Nigeria 20 ,000 tracts and 2 ,000 books distributed for free of charge.

And so I always had a hunger and a desire to be involved in a literature

ministry where we distribute books, booklets, and tracts free of charge.

Not only in the domestic United States, but all around the world.

But in 2006, we published our first book, which was the New

Testament Missionary, written by Cliff Heller, who was a missionary, he and his

wife, to Papua New Guinea for 55 years.

Or so.

And since then, we've published about 70 titles, books, booklets, and tracts.

We have distributed freely all around the world over 320 ,000 books

at Bible conferences, pastors' conferences, one -on -one churches, as well as

we listeners can order them online at firstloveministries .org.

And so we provide godly literature, sound theological books, books on

practical subjects, devotional, apologetics, pastoral topics

on the website.

And they're free of charge, including postage paid.

So if you go to firstloveministries .org, you can click on the

literature link, First Love Publications, and all of our titles will be brought up in front of you on

our online catalog.

Many of our titles also can be downloaded free of charge through e -books and

other digital.

Media.

And then there's First Love Missions.

We've been doing mission trips with short mission trips for a week or two weeks, ten

days, since 1994 with a team of pastors and Christian helpers,

two or three times a year, sometimes four times a year.

Dr. John Waldrop and I have gone on several mission trips together to Papua New Guinea

and other places.

But we have teams going out.

We have a trip taking place in November, God willing, to Nigeria.

We just came back from Nigeria.

We had a trip to Nepal and India and the Philippines.

We're in five countries.

We have five branch missionary outreach branches in five different countries,

including Kenya as well, where we distribute free literature through the branch leader who

oversees the work, as well as a pastor of a church.

And so that's First Love Missions.

We're always looking for folks who want to get involved in missions.

And then we have First Love Radio, where you're listening to Iron Sharpens Iron right now, unless you're listening directly to

Chris's website and getting the program from his website.

But we supply the feed that he jumps off of.

But we have a 24 -hour a day, seven days a week radio station at

FirstLoveMinistries .org.

When you come on the homepage, there's a link.

Click on it and you'll get 24 -7 radio.

We have real solid theological teaching, teachers such as Alistair Begg, Martin Lloyd -Jones,

John Waldrop, yours truly, and about seven or eight other sound

teachers of the gospel from a reform perspective.

We have many other programs, quite a diversity of genre programs.

And you can bring up a programming schedule online.

And then there's Grace Bible University, which is still in building

form.

We're not promoting it right now because we're halfway through developing a Bachelor of Theology.

And so we're not going to publicize it until we're done with that.

We're about halfway there.

Maybe in another year or two we'll be done.

So we have those four ministries under the overall heading of First Love Ministries.

Missions, radio, Bible study courses through GBU,

and First Love publications, all free of charge since the beginning.

We proclaim the Word of God through the printed page, through missionary efforts,

through Bible conferences, through Bible study courses, and through

missions.

Did I say missions?

Under the heading of First Love Radio.

And you can access all of those ministries at FirstLoveMinistries .org.

And don't forget about the website for Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California,

which is ChristBibleChurch .org, ChristBibleChurch .org.

Please let our listeners know about a book that you are offering today with First Love Publications.

Yes, we just finished publishing Dr. W .R. Downing's newest

work.

It's called Introduction to Theology.

And it introduces the reader to all the main doctrines of the Christian faith.

He writes in a concise, simple form.

And it's probably the best simple explanation of basic

Christian doctrine that I've ever found.

That's why I published it.

It's 130 pages long, 80 pages of theology, and 50

pages of a glossary in the back of the book, which by itself is worth its

weight in gold.

Pretty much all the main Christian terms that you will come across in reading doctrine,

reading Christian books, you will find in that glossary.

It is a very practical, theological, simple book.

If you go to FirstLoveMinistries .org and click on

Publications, you'll have our catalog.

Click on the order form and order that one book.

You can only order one book at a time.

Order Introduction to Theology by W .R. Downing,

and we will send that to you free of charge.

It's great to use for training your children, for Bible study classes, for church, for

personal reference, for personal growth, et cetera.

Great.

Well, now we come to our second guest scheduled to be on the program

with us today, John Waldrop.

And, Pastor John Waldrop, why don't you tell us something about the fine church where you

are privileged to pastor?

I'm the pastor of Calvary Road Baptist Church in Monrovia, California.

It was started in 1975 by a

pastor who was very decidedly not in the

doctrines of grace camp, of the broad stream of Baptist thought and

practice.

And I have been the pastor since November of 1985 and had the privilege

of serving now for coming up on 38 years.

Our church's website is CalvaryRoadBaptist .Church.

And we also have, in addition to that, a publication website, Classical

Baptist Press.

That's ClassicalBaptist .Press, where we also have

a significantly smaller version of the ministry that my friend Joe Jackowitz has

with First Love Publications.

And so I'm delighted to be back on your program again.

The last time I was on, we talked about a book that I had written.

And now we're going to be talking about something entirely differently, and I'm excited about it.

Yes, I am as well.

And by the way, folks, this is just day one of a two -day

interview that we are having on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio with these two guests.

Tomorrow, July 18th, they will be back to discuss a different

topic than we are addressing today.

The topic tomorrow is artificial intelligence.

So you might want to mark your calendar to remind you to tune in tomorrow on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio.

But today we are addressing church safety.

And Joe Jackowitz, there are many ways some folk

may have things coming into their minds immediately when you hear the phrase church safety.

And many of them may be off topic of what you intended to address today.

So why don't you tell us specifically what you mean by your theme that you will be discussing

today, church safety.

Well, Chris, good question.

It's a big issue today.

So many more churches increasingly are being attacked where you have individuals walking in

and murdering attendees and congregants right there where they sit.

We've heard how many churches have been attacked, where numbers have been

killed in the last three or four years.

It's been getting worse and worse.

Of course, in the general increase of lawlessness and chaos in society, we can expect these

things to happen.

We can also expect in the apostasy of these end times, a general hatred and

malice growing towards the church in general.

I think the church who the people are

viewed as religious is very much the object of the

scorn and hatred of the world.

We're already told that by our Lord Jesus where he said, if they hate me, they will also hate you.

The servant is not greater than his master.

So I think we can expect increasing attacks in the coming months and years as we get closer

to the end of the world.

Not just towards individual Christians because of what they represent in the gospel and

their godly life, but also congregations are the object of the

hatred and malice of the world.

These church buildings are in very pronounced places on the street corners and

on main thoroughfares and boulevards where unsaved people are regularly

reminded of their hatred towards Christianity in general and Christians in particular and

congregations.

And so we see these random acts of murder and violence against churches increasing.

So it has brought up the issue of church security and questions

such as how far do we go in providing physical security for our

churches?

I think pastors especially are in a situation and I think John would agree with me that it's

a topic we can't ignore as leaders over congregation.

And so the question of whether or not it's biblical to have a church security

position and policy and a security team in place to protect the congregation

is a valid question.

We can't just dismiss it as so many used to dismiss it and say, well, the church is all about spiritual

things.

The church is all about the gospel.

The church is all about discipling and shepherding souls into the kingdom.

I think that is true.

That's our first priority.

But I think we can't just dismiss and sweep this idea under the rug concerning whether or not

as pastors and church leaders we look out for the congregation and protect the

congregation.

So that would be my opening statement.

And we really need to wrestle hard with it.

And I myself have been personally challenged in this particular area.

And Pastor Waldrop, have you and Joe really done thorough

research as to how to protect local churches?

Yes, I think this came on the world stage several decades ago when a

violent group of men went into a church auditorium in South Africa.

And one of the church members had a personal handgun on him.

And he protected the congregation.

It was not planned.

They didn't have a security team in place.

But it put him at the forefront of the discussion of whether or not

violence could be met with violence in a church situation.

He wrote a book on the topic.

And it has become the topic of conversation here in the United States.

There is a man by the name of Dave Grossman who was a former Army Ranger, has a

PhD in psychology, has written two books that are now required reading for those in the

military about the effects of training people

to engage in violent acts against other people.

And he now travels around the United States training security teams in

different churches.

And it brings up a couple of issues that ought to be considered.

I think he's popularized the term sheepdog mentality.

You find that in the New Testament there's no mention of a sheepdog.

There is a mention of an under shepherd.

And I'm not suggesting that the sheepdog mentality is necessarily wrong.

It's just a non -scriptural term, and it conveys a non -scriptural

concept of protecting the congregation.

And the constant pushback on churches

that desire to protect their congregations in extraordinary ways is

that, for instance, if there be those in leadership

or in the congregation, in the general population carrying firearms, that innocent

people are going to be hurt, wounded, or killed.

Because of the fact that you have people that are so -called not trained professionals to do this.

But that kind of talk often is just an excuse to put

people in a position of being sitting ducks.

Because they always want the professionals to handle things.

But what is your opinion on firearms in a congregation, and is that a part of your plan of safety?

Well, it is a part of our plan, even though we are close enough to a public school that we are forbidden

by law to have weapons.

But thankfully, we have a couple of law enforcement officers who attend our services, and there is

no provision under law that disarms them.

And yet, some of these experts, who I know several guys that are professionals

in the security business, some of them are facilities security experts, and

some of them are executive protection experts.

And they both tell me that law enforcement officers are sometimes not the best alternative

for a church situation.

Because they don't have the kind of specific training for a church auditorium that

would make them best suited.

And so, I think LEOs would disagree with that.

But I would remind people that back in the day, when they tried to roll out the 911 system

for calling for emergencies, the most vigorous opposition came from law

enforcement agencies.

They did not want people to be able to dial 911 to call police to

the scene, because they wanted to maintain control over whether or not

police would be dispatched to a location.

Well, sometimes you see a little bit of that now, and should there be

time and should you have interest, I'll share with you about some of the conversations I've had with various law

enforcement agencies in my area.

Why don't you do that when we return from our break, because we have to go to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

And don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I

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That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching,

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Such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show

he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland,

going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming,

Georgia are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe

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If you visit, have them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, and Mattai in County Kildare, Ireland,

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We're now back with Joe Jackowitz and John Waldrip, and we are discussing church safety.

And right before the break, Pastor Waldrip, you were about to talk about your

conversations and counsel from police officers.

Yes, an associate of mine and I

are involved in the development of a smartphone app, which would make it possible.

It usually takes a person up to five seconds to decide whether the sound he heard

was a firecracker or a backfire or a gunshot.

But a technological device like on a smartphone can decide instantaneously that was

gunfire you heard.

And so we are interested in developing a smartphone app that can be used not only by people

in their day -to -day life, but also in a church setting.

And when we went to propose the idea with law enforcement officials,

they soundly and roundly condemned it.

And then I pointed out to them, but you guys were also opposed to the 911 system.

So is it an issue of you don't want anyone encroaching upon your

perceived area of expertise, or do you really think this would be bad?

I think that because a church, for example, such as ours, we occupy a building that's 100

years old.

It was designed back in the day when no one in the culture would have attacked anyone in a church.

Of course, nowadays, architects that design church buildings take into effect

or take into account choke points and things like that.

And there's things you can do with architecture that you can't do with a building of our age.

And so I'm of the opinion that technology is a

remedy that we need to explore, and here's why.

The kinds of people that are threats to a church congregation run the gamut from someone who's

just a random crazy guy who happens to have a firearm, and he's barely skilled

enough to use the weapon.

Thankfully, most of the attacks that have been at churches and schools

have been armed guys who were very, very poorly trained.

If these guys had the training that Pastor Joe used to provide back in the day when he was a Marine Corps

instructor, it would be dangerous.

But the question is, can a congregation have a security team with

such a high level of skill that they can actively and

successfully defend against someone with skills?

And when you have a security team that's that good, do you have the unintended consequence

of alarming the congregation about the threats to the place where people begin staying

home?

Because people imagine that their homes are safer than a church auditorium.

In fact, homes are not safer than church auditoriums.

The reason they're not safer is because of slip and falls and things like that.

But a person is always safer in a church auditorium than they are at home, and yet that's not the way

people think.

And so it's a vastly more complex and nuanced problem, and the way

pastors deal with it can have a decided impact upon the

mothers with young children and the aged and the infirm, who imagine that they

would be safer at home, when in fact their soul's safety, as well as their

physical safety, dictates that they should be in the house of God.

Pastor Joe Jakubowicz, don't you think—it almost seems like a no -brainer.

In fact, I think it is a no -brainer.

I think the only way that you would not conclude otherwise is that if

you are brainwashed by leftist propaganda.

But wouldn't an intruder, an armed intruder,

intending to do harm to any church or school, think

twice and perhaps even change their mind completely, if they knew, by

signage and other ways, that this building is protected by

those carrying firearms?

I mean, it seems like an obvious answer, which would be, yes, they would be more

intimidated to enter a building like that.

Oh, yeah.

I think that if they had sufficient notice, then there would

be less tendency to the individual attacking the church or

the people in it, or both.

And I think if we just step back for a second, what

most believers are asking in their mind—because there's this

confusion and conflict between the spiritual and the physical— and in

some situations, believers think there's a tension between

defending oneself with firearms or physically defending yourself

against attacks, versus the spiritual principle of, if your

enemy attacks you, don't fight back.

And the spiritual principle there, that Jesus taught, love your enemies, and

because there's such a lack of good teaching today, most people are left up to interpreting verses like, love

your enemies, based on their own imagination, and they think to love their

enemies means they have to be passive completely, and any threat of physical,

bodily, or any other kind of harm by others to them means

they have to lay everything down and let them do anything they want, including harming our families

and ourselves.

But there is a balance of teaching and scripture that brings

harmony to both of those positions, which seem incompatible,

but the Bible makes it very clear.

For example, the idea of protecting yourself certainly is rooted in both the

Old Testament and the New Testament.

In the Old Testament, there's the concept of the Watchmen in

Ezekiel 33, 1 -9.

And so, God has set in place certain Watchmen to

protect us.

There's a Watchmen over the nation.

They are called politicians and police.

And in Romans 13, 1 -4, we're told that all authorities of God are

of God, and God has raised up the authorities to protect us from evil.

Then, there were the gatekeepers over the temple and the house of God in 1

Chronicles 9.

We see there was a class of men that were raised up and chosen by the

Jewish leadership to make sure they watched who was going in and out of the

temple, and no one unqualified would be allowed inside the temple.

No Gentiles would be allowed in.

And they were gatekeepers to protect the church from spiritual poisoning,

or protect the temple and the Jewish people in their worship from that.

But there was also the gatekeepers to protect from physical harm.

Then there are Watchmen over the church.

The New Testament definition of a Watchman is a pastor or a deacon.

And we read about their role in 1 Peter 5, which is primarily spiritual.

But the Bible says faith without works is dead.

And the way we show our faith is by very often providing physical help and comfort,

which would include physical protection and security, for people we love and people we are responsible

for.

And so I think there's a very valid place of the concept of the Watchman in a New

Testament leader like a pastor or a deacon to watch over the congregation.

Obviously our primary calling is to provide as church leaders spiritual

leadership.

But then there's the Watchmen over the church as well to help with physical needs.

Do not most of our churches have individuals or ministries designed to pick

up people, to take them to the doctor, to minister to the elderly, to provide physical care

in some way that we may let our light shine among men, because they see our

good works and glorify our Father in Heaven.

And then there's the idea of the Watchman over the house, the home, that is.

Husbands and fathers are to not only provide physically for their family, like food and

clothing, not only are they to provide spiritual ministry by training up their

children and loving their wife, and teaching his wife and providing spiritual leadership, but

he is also to provide for their physical needs.

He that cannot provide for his own family is worse than an infidel, speaking of the breadwinner of the

family.

And I think the same is true with physical protection in the home.

We take our children to the doctor when they're sick, don't we?

Anyone who doesn't protect their family in terms of a husband or a father, doesn't protect his

wife or children, would be considered irresponsible.

So let me sum all this up.

That's the physical part of it, and there's definitely a place for physical protection of the church, physical

security in the church building, and the church property and the people themselves.

There's a place for protection of the home, in terms of husbands and fathers

rendering physical care and physical protection.

But the spiritual issue still hasn't been fully addressed.

And here's the bottom line with it.

The bottom line is, as Christians, when we are called upon to protect our families,

and when we call the police, are you not going to call the police when there's a home invasion

of your home?

Are you not going to protect the church members?

Of course.

But the difference is, whether you go on the offensive

or on the defensive.

To fulfill the law of love, where God says to love your enemies, and where God says

for the sake of the gospel, where to suffer if someone threatens you, if someone does

physical harm towards you, because you're suffering persecution for the sake of the gospel,

the Bible clearly teaches we are not to protect ourselves.

We're doing it for the glory of Christ, for the sake of the gospel, and there's a very important element of suffering related to

persecution for the gospel's sake.

But then there's an element there where we are given biblical precedent

to protect ourselves, but in a defensive way.

We are not to have anger or malice in our hearts when some robber or

criminal wants to kill my child or is going for my child to hurt my child.

I'm going to step between that robber and my child, and I'm going to protect my child, I'm going to

protect my wife.

But as a Christian, I am warned not to do so with

aggravated and hateful motives.

It is just to get this guy out of the way until he stops seeking to do harm to my

family.

That's a defensive measure, while the heart is still guarded from hatred

and malice.

And I think the Bible gives us that latitude to carry over and roll over that principle into

church security.

We have...

Are you the address?

I'm here.

Well, continue your talk.

So that's the bottom line.

We are called, as husbands, fathers, church officers, pastors, deacons,

we are called to protect, at least at a minimum, our congregations,

our people, our families from harm.

But to do so in a defensive way, only as long and as far

until the oppression and the attack stops.

Amen.

I agree completely with Pastor Jakowicz.

Let me add something, if I might.

Some years ago, we had an incident in our congregation that was potentially

violent.

No one was actually harmed.

But it spurred action on our part, and we reached out to the

Los Angeles Police Department SWAT Special Weapons and Tactics Team.

You remember, many years ago, there was an incident in North Hollywood, California, in which some bank robbers

were fully armed, fully protected with automatic weapons.

And it was a debacle for the Los Angeles Police Department.

And they responded.

And one of the private companies that was started, was started by the guy that was the on -site

commander of that situation.

And he gave us some interesting advice along what Pastor

Jakowicz says, about how a church can have and should have

a usher, greeter, and security team, as is mentioned

in the book that my church member wrote.

And he pointed out that if you have, for example, a guy standing out in front of the church, one of your church men,

and a guy walks up the sidewalk, if you will approach him with an

extended hand and a smile, and attempt to greet him, if

he's a bad guy, number one, he will not want to make eye contact with you.

Number two, he will not want to stop and shake your hand.

Number three, he will try to go around you to get into the building.

And these specialists in site security pointed

out, that guy is not to be let into the auditorium.

He is not to be let into the place of worship.

In other words, the minimal requirement for you to get in to where the congregation is, is you better be

willing to look at me, you better be willing to smile at me, you better be willing to shake my hand, you better be

willing to engage me in a little chit -chat, or else I'm going to deny you permission to enter.

And pick up right where you left off, Pastor Waldrop, we have to go to our midway break.

Please be patient with us, folks.

The midway break is always longer than the other breaks.

We have to allow Grace Life Radio to air their public service announcements, while we air our globally heard commercials.

So please do not go away, because we are going to be right back after these messages.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I

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Before I return to my discussion with Joe Jakiewicz and John Waldrop on the theme church safety,

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Pastor John Woldrip at

chrisarnson at gmail .com I had to cut you off before the midway break, Pastor John Woldrip,

if you could pick up where you left off.

Well, I will try, Chris, although I have the attention span of a goldfish,.

And so I may not.

Let me just commend those men and sometimes few women

who are involved in the usher corps and the security

team of congregations because they do such a good job and it's such a

thankless job.

And as an under shepherd, I have concern for them because, you know, when you

absent yourself from the means of grace, when you're outside the auditorium when the

preaching is taking place or when you're in the auditorium but your attention is distracted

and you're concerned about visitors and people entering and leaving, there's a

price that you pay for that.

And sometimes people in congregations are not aware of the fact that the

people who put themselves out to help ensure their safety and security

during worship are paying a spiritual price for that that they have to make up for some

other way.

They have to devote additional time to their personal devotional life and their spiritual study

and their prayer time because they're not getting the encouragement from fellow believers

that everybody else in the congregation is getting.

And so I'm committed to the safety of the congregation.

I know that Pastor Joe is.

I know that you are.

And I just wanted to, on the air, give a public shout out to those who are involved

in security teams at the various congregations that they're a part of.

And I know that you were, before the break, discussing your involvement in getting

counsel from local police departments.

I don't know if you had concluded your discussion on that, but there was some disagreement, I know, between

yourself and police departments on what they thought was appropriate, and you were baffled by it.

I am a strong proponent of law enforcement.

I've always been a strong supporter.

The situation is, sometimes, the people who have an established and very clearly

defined area of responsibility sometimes are very jealous of what they

see defined for them.

And sometimes a technological advance is perceived by them to possibly be

threatening.

Decades ago, when they tried to roll out the 9 -1 -1 system, law

enforcement agencies around the country came out very, very strongly

opposed to the implementation of 9 -1 -1.

And I have talked to a number of chiefs of police in our area about a

smartphone app that I'm interested in developing.

I haven't developed it because I don't have access to the kind of code writer that can do

that.

But the technology is there for anyone with a smartphone

to have instantaneous feedback available to them about the sound of gunfire.

The city of Los Angeles has spent $10 million in one part of the city to set

up a series of microphones where they can triangulate the sound of gunfire and

instantly locate where a gunshot came from.

But do you realize that if you had a smartphone.

App.

In the hands of a dozen people and those phones heard the crack of gunfire,

the software currently exists for that triangulation to be instantaneously

available and available to report to the police that there was a gunshot that took

place here and it took place three seconds ago and the police could roll on that so much

more quickly.

Alas, the development of the app has not proceeded.

It would be of significant help to missionaries in foreign countries.

I've talked to two very, very large religious organizations about the desirability

of this kind of app.

Both of them have indicated that they were all for it, but then both of them were

immediately embroiled.

In.

Moral.

Challenges that distracted their leadership.

So I think we're on the verge of kind of a leap.

Forward.

It may bleed over into.

Tomorrow's.

Topic,.

AI,.

But I think that the real solution for improving and enhancing safety in

congregations is a technological one that could be in the form of a

smartphone app that would be accessible to anyone in the congregation.

We have an anonymous listener, and I'll have Pastor Joe Jackiewicz answer first.

The anonymous listener says, I was shocked and

dismayed and baffled when I read a number of years ago an article

by the world -renowned author and theologian John Piper.

I have loved nearly every book I've ever read by John Piper, and I've loved nearly

every sermon I've ever heard by John Piper.

But John Piper said in writing that if some criminals had broken into his home

and they were about to murder his wife and children, if he had a firearm, he would not

kill them, because he knows that would send these men to hell if they

died.

I think this is an absurd, outlandish, and unbiblical way of thinking, and in fact,

I know that John Piper is.

Reformed,.

And he should know, as a Calvinist, that men do not control the eternal destinies of

other men.

I think that's an excellent point, and Pastor Joe Jakiewicz, if you could respond to that.

In fact, I know that what our listener is saying is accurate, because I read the article, and there was,

at the time, especially of its writing, there was a lot of controversy over.

It.

I don't know if John Piper ever changes mind on.

It.

There is a possibility that he did, but Joe, if you could respond.

Sure.

Well, I.

Would agree.

With your.

Listener, who wrote that question or made that comment, and not John Piper.

Now, again, as long as we keep

the

law of.

Love,.

And without any.

Malice in our hearts towards the individual,.

I think the Bible.

Is very clear in the matter of the approach of the Christian.

We are in a situation where.

The Bible.

Says,.

A prudent.

Man foresees evil and hides himself,.

But the.

Simple pass on and are punished.

And so a wise man, a prudent man, anticipates or sees evil coming, and

prepares for it.

Right?

You put an alarm system in your home, don't you?

You have an.

Alarm system in your car.

Why?

Because you don't want any harm to come to the physical property that you own.

Well,.

How much more if you have family members?

All right?

You want to protect them.

You have a.

Church situation where you have a congregation of 50 or 100 or 1 ,000, and you love these people.

They're brethren.

Wouldn't it be prudent?

Wouldn't it be wise, especially if you live in a place next.

To Dr. Waldrop,.

Like in L .A., where the city is drowning in lawlessness, murder,

the murder rate, the crime rate, is skyrocketing in.

L .A.,.

Personal attacks.

It's unbelievable what's going on, not only in L .A., but in most blue cities across the nation.

All crime in all areas are increasing.

To have a minimum of.

Security there.

That might make the difference between protecting someone or one of your members

actually face.

Harm.

Let me give you a couple of suggestions.

You can incorporate a minimum of physical security.

You can put security cameras.

In.

You can put security alarms.

In.

That won't help you,.

Obviously,.

To prevent someone from walking in the back door during a worship service and with guns blazing,.

But at.

Least for.

The other.

22 or 21 hours during the.

Week, you would.

Be able to playback a camera feed or you would have an alarm go off where the

police would respond and identify an attacker who was meant on hurting your

congregation ultimately and get this guy out of the.

Way.

Of course, that depends on whether the

church has.

Least you can do is to hire a

security.

Consulting firm to come out and provide a.

Security.

Assessment.

That assessment would identify all the weak and vulnerable areas of your physical

security, especially when the congregation is meeting for worship.

Or prayer.

Meeting or Bible study.

Or special.

Events and you could look at your budget and you can decide what funds you

have to implement such physical security.

Another thing is the.

Matter of security.

Guards.

Now,.

Obviously, most churches cannot afford.

Security.

Guards, especially armed guards because you're not looking at unarmed security.

You want an armed security officer there if you can afford it.

But.

It's an increasing there's an increasing number of pastors today using armed

members of their own congregation to be ready to help in an emergency.

And so if you have a police officer who's willing as a member.

Of your.

Congregation to stand by and be ready to intervene.

If an.

Attacker is coming into your church, then you should sit down with that person and have

a plan, know what you're talking about, base it all on scripture and biblical conviction, and have that

member sit in a place that's strategically identified to

intervene if a problem happens.

You can do the same thing with deacons and.

Ushers.

You can sit down with them.

First, the elders need to present this to the.

Congregation.

They feel about.

Physical security, do some teaching on it, and depending on how much budget you have for such a thing,

you can have armed members of the congregation or deacons or ushers sit

in locations that can identify evil coming before an attacker comes into the church

and really shoots.

Up the place.

So there's something you can do, and I think most.

Security firms.

Today are taking into.

Consideration.

The number of attacks done by firearms now, since it's a regular problem in

society.

Most security firms are addressing that issue and keeping that in mind when churches call them.

Many, many churches over the last few years have contacted.

Security.

Consulting firms.

To get their.

Feedback on.

How to.

Prevent such situations.

And we can do all of this while being faithful to the biblical principles involved

of knowing when to intervene and knowing not when to intervene when we're under attack.

By the way, Pastor Joe, perhaps if you could turn your volume down a little bit on your microphone because it

is a little bit overmodulating.

Well, going back to the theological problems with John Piper's comments, the

thing that is odd about that comment is that even if

we had in our power to

send people to hell, as it were, as John Piper said that he refused to kill these

hypothetical murderers in his home because being murderers, they would go to hell if he killed.

Them.

The thing that makes no sense about that is that so you want these murderers to

live, leave your home, and then murder other people that they would be sending to

hell.

People that on a human plane of innocence were innocent victims.

When we use the term innocent, we know that there is no perfect person, but when we use it in a

legal sense, we're talking about innocent victims that are being sent to hell, according to

Piper's understanding.

And by the way, I'm echoing back on somebody's computer right now, so I'm not sure why that is.

But Pastor Waldrop, isn't that just biblically indefensible?

Yes, it.

Is.

I read the article also.

I think that Pastor Joe's response is extremely well thought out.

As the.

Father of law enforcement officers, I have no doubt that he's given this a great deal of

thought and consideration,.

And it's.

Reflected in his answer.

And I would ask John Piper,.

As a.

Believer, if you were a police officer.

And you.

Were home.

And you.

Were off duty, you would let someone shoot you and your family?

What's the.

Difference?

I think there is a wild inconsistency in his and in the

application of biblical.

Truth to.

His situation.

I don't know what motivates him to do that.

There's all kinds of guesses that.

Could be.

Involved, but I don't think the Bible supports the position

of pacifism in the face.

Of an.

Imminent threat.

To your.

Life, to yourself, and.

To your family.

Yes, people, even professing reform people at times, contradict the

theology they claim to be their own, and come up with this picture of Jesus

that is unbiblical.

And we have to remember that Jesus even told his disciples to make sure that they had a

sword.

Why was that?

I mean, so, I don't know, like I said, I don't know if John Piper has

maintained this ridiculous view or not, but I hope not.

And by the way, Anonymous, if you email me your full name and full mailing address,

we will not divulge that over the air, obviously.

You have won a free copy of a book that Pastor John Waldrip is shipping to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

And tell us about this book again, Pastor Waldrip.

Yes, one of the men in our church, and he happens to be the head of our security team and our head usher,

he goes by the pen name Joseph Brewer.

Because he's a.

Coffee lover.

He likes to.

Drink Joe and.

He likes to brew Joe, but he has a book entitled A Practical Guide for Church Ushers and.

Greeters.

It's also available in Spanish, the subtitle With Some Thoughts on Security, and he's

obviously given a great deal of thought.

To it.

I have sent out a copy.

Of his book.

To a number of pastors across the.

Country.

It's been well received.

It provokes good thought and reflection by pastors, by elders, by

deacons, by church.

Members who.

Are concerned about such things.

It's not a long read.

It's only.

About 70 pages, but I think it would be well worth the time taken

for any pastor, any church member, any deacon to.

Read it.

Okay.

Well, we'll ship that out to you, Anonymous, and thanks to John Waldrop, and also

thanks to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, a major sponsor of this program who will be

shipping out to you at no charge to you or.

To us.

We have Cindy in Finley, Ohio, who says,.

I was just wondering if John Piper's comment that he would not kill an intruder who

threatened harm to his property or family also meant that he would not shoot them.

I would think he would not.

Be against.

Shooting someone if he would not intend to kill.

Well, when you shoot somebody, Pastor Joe and Pastor John, if it's in a

life or death situation, shouldn't your intention be to kill?

Well, I think your response, I think the training of law enforcement

is that you stop the.

Threat,.

Whatever it takes to stop the.

Threat.

And typically when you're.

Using a.

Handgun, most people don't realize that handguns are.

Far, far.

Less effective,.

Far, far.

Less powerful than a long gun.

And so sometimes police officers get in trouble when people say, well, you.

Know, he.

Shot his weapon five times.

Why didn't he just.

Shoot the.

Gun out of his hand?

No, you can't do.

That.

You aim for center mass and you continue to squeeze rounds until there is no longer a threat

because you're dealing with a weapon that while it is very, very

dangerous, it is vastly less powerful than any long gun.

And so.

Once you.

Start shooting, you need to keep shooting until the threat has.

Ended for the.

Sake of your family and for the sake of yourself.

Amen.

And, Pastor Joe, do you have any comment?

Yeah, I.

Think that rule is correct.

I agree with.

John.

If there is an imminent threat of your life being taken, if

to dovetail the biblical principle involved here, it depends on the situation,

but I think you should shoot to shoot to

hurt the individual to stop the.

Threat.

And I.

Agree with.

But we're not.

Police officers, so we don't have the training.

And to keep that in mind when an intruder is there, center mass, and keep shooting until

the gun is empty, until the threat stops, I think that John is looking at it from a

law enforcement perspective or a mindset.

But most people just pick up a gun and I think the believer needs to

try to keep in mind, but at the moment when there is.

Imminent.

Danger, we really don't think about these things, but to shoot an arm or a leg or

maybe in the hip or somewhere to stop the attack would be preferable

because you just want to prevent the attack.

Now, again, there's a lot of variables here.

Most people.

Wouldn't be.

Able to do.

That.

They would.

Just shoot at the person, just point and aim, usually the center mass.

But I think we.

Need to.

Keep in mind, make sure that we're not looking to kill somebody just

for the sake of.

Killing.

And I.

Know that's not what you're saying,.

John.

I would just say that although we're not

killing somebody for the sake of killing them, I have no problem with the idea of a Christian murdering, not murdering, I'm

sorry, with a Christian ending the life of an intruder who is intending to harm

somebody's spouse and children.

I don't think that they should be all that concerned unless it is very

clear that they could wound this person and stop them in their tracks.

But if it is something where you have to make a decision on whether your children and your spouse are going to be harmed,

that man is dead as far as I'm concerned.

And I don't think that's a sin either.

I think you're right.

Our goal is not vengeance.

Our goal is not retribution.

Our goal is to stop the.

Threat.

And we should, I think in my mind, I cannot in good conscience go one step farther than

stop the.

Threat.

The vengeance.

Is God's problem.

The retribution, that's God's.

Problem.

Or law.

Enforcement or the judicial.

System.

My goal is to stop the.

Threat.

Well, we're going to our final break right now, and if anybody has an additional question,

send it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

And Cindy from Findlay, Ohio, make sure we have your mailing address because you've also won the copy

of the book that our friend Pastor John Waldrip is giving away today.

So don't go away, folks.

We're going to be right back after these messages.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very.

Excited to.

Announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to

Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National.

Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching,

writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of.

God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott

Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news.

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Chris Arnzen and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the G3

National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

Make sure you.

Stop by the.

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Booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're.

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Go to.

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I'm

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McLaughlin,.

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Puritan.

Reformed is a Bible -believing, Kingdom -building, Devil -fighting church.

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and

also the host of the reformrookie .com website.

I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron radio in the search bar.

You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many

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Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now.

And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube

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We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as

well as seasoned believers.

From Keach's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform

Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession

of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key

doctrines of the Christian faith.

I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer

and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

Sharpens Iron financially.

Would you consider sending either a one -time gift, or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com, where you can click support.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope

Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher

McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church

in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into

the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing

of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa

on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common?

They all require training, assessments, and certifications.

But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent.

My name is A .M. Brewster.

I'm the president of Truth Love Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s.

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Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com.

If you love Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

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They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.

As host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he

shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus.

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And please make note that the new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey

is gcbc -nj .org.

So disregard the website in that commercial.

The new and correct website is gcbc -nj

.org for Grace Covenant Baptist Church of Flemington, New Jersey.

We're now back with my two guests today, Joe Jackowitz and John Waldrip.

And I understand that you wanted to put in a plug for another book, Pastor Joe.

Pastor Joe, are you there?

Yes, I'm here.

Thank you.

The book that we wanted to offer to your listeners is Introduction to Theology by

Dr. W .R. Downing.

It's a simple yet very thorough review of the basic doctrines of

the Christian faith.

It's comprehensive yet it's simple.

It's a short 80 pages and a 50 page glossary is attached

to the back of the book.

Total 130 pages.

It's really ideal for teaching, for personal Bible study.

It's a simple explanation of every major doctrine in the Bible

connected with salvation and otherwise, actually.

It's offered free of charge, postage paid.

If you go to our website at firstloveministries .org.

That's firstloveministries .org, all one word.

And on the homepage, click on First Love Publications and just follow the

prompts, order the book.

And you can only order one book at a time.

But there's also many, many other books you can review our catalog.

And also, we want to invite your listeners to tune in to First Love Radio.

It's a 24 -7 Christian radio station with music, many great teaching programs.

Actually, our co -host or your other guest, my friend John Waldrop, has a program

on First Love Radio, which I highly invite and encourage your listeners to listen to

his teaching program on firstloveradio .org or you could just go to firstloveministries

.org and click on the radio button that comes up right on the homepage and it'll take you to

the radio website.

And you can click on the link on top of the page that will show the radio schedule,

which programs play when.

And Pastor John Waldrop, could you provide a summary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds

of our listeners today about this topic?

And then when you're done, we can have Joe come back and give his summary of thoughts.

Yes, I think that despite the press

and the notoriety and the heartache and the tragedy that is so widely publicized,

if you just look at the hard facts and the numbers, just objective reality, a person is safer

in a church auditorium than he is at home.

And so if you're ever wondering whether or not to go to church and the concern is for your physical safety,

go to church.

You're safer there than you are at home.

At home, people slip, people fall, people electrocute themselves, all of these kinds of things.

And that's not even dealing with the spiritual danger.

You always want to avail yourself of the means of grace.

And I am one that's absolutely committed to the benefit to everyone of the preaching of the Word of God

and the fellowship and the exhortation that comes when Christians gather together for worship in public.

And that said, it is a wonderful thing that churches are becoming more mindful of

security issues, but I'm of the opinion that we have yet to see

a real progress in the area of congregational security until we take

advantage of the technological opportunities that

are out there in the form of a personal smartphone app

that could be developed, that should be developed, if someone would simply write the

code for it.

And I think it would be a wonderful enhancement to every worshiper's peace of mind and

tranquility when they attend church with their brothers and sisters in Christ.

By the way, I slip, fall down, and electrocute myself in my home every single day.

Just kidding.

Pastor Joe Jacobs, if you could summarize your thoughts today.

Well, I think we need to ask what the bottom line question is for us.

How do we function in the light of God's sovereignty and our responsibility?

Our procedures are not secretive, nor are they blatantly obvious, but they're

positively intentional when it comes to church security and safety.

We want folks who attend our services to be safe, yes.

We want them to come to church, worship, and then go home with no concerns about their

physical safety.

They are sheep, and individuals on our security team are the sheepdogs.

And the sheep come to graze in this pasture, and our well -trained and prayerful sheepdogs

constantly sniff the perimeters to detect and cancel the plans of any wolf that might be lurking

near us.

So our sheepdogs are watchful, and they are ready.

And that's the way we do things.

So indeed, God is sovereign, but safety is of the Lord, and our trust is in Him,

and by God's grace, we'll use the brains that He gave us.

I like the old saying, it's not biblical, Chris, but it's true.

We are to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

Amen.

Well, I want to plug, once again, the company that sponsors this show, whose ads you're hearing

every day, SecureCommGroup .com, SecureCommGroup .com, for all your

security needs for church, home, business, industry, and so on.

SecureCommGroup .com.

Make sure you mention Chris Arnz and the Vine Trap and Zion Radio.

I also want to remind you of the website for Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton,

California, ChristBibleChurch .org, ChristBibleChurch .org, of course,

FirstLoveMinistries .org, FirstLoveMinistries .org, and Calvary Road

Baptist Church in Moravia, California.

It can be found at CalvaryRoadBaptist .Church, CalvaryRoadBaptist .Church.

I want to thank both of you men for doing such a fine job as my guests today.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.