Open Lines on the Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:39

Okay, here's my question Aside of the fact I can't see anything again. Here's here's my question.

00:45

What if there is life on Mars? Did did we just start an interplanetary war for those of you who are watching

00:56

Delayed or something like that Wow Okay, there's

01:02

I've still got it up here. The Falcon heavy test flight just took place and We just launched a

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Tesla Roadster to Mars and there's a there's a dude sitting the driver's seat. Well, it's not a dude it's a mannequin in a spacesuit, but we're literally launching a a car at Mars and The the thought crosses my mind if there is life on Mars They could take this negatively, you know,

01:32

I mean those those crazy people on earth are shooting cars at us With lithium batteries in them, that's possible.

01:40

That's possible. Yeah, I'm looking right now at the car. No, no, and I need to do this with a different at a tone.

01:47

Kaboom. Yeah That's true, I mean

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Haven't you watched War of the Worlds? They've got some some pretty bad weaponry up there on Mars So I'm not really sure that a

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Tesla Roadster versus you know that thing that Tom Cruise had to take on is really now

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I'm a little concerned about this but That was impressive. I don't know if you if you missed it.

02:15

I'm sorry you missed it But SpaceX just just launched the the

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Falcon heavy which is the most powerful rocket since the Saturn 5 booster and I'm going to tell you some

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I've been listening to a Man the moon books called man the moon

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For example Tom Hanks read that book very thoroughly in preparation for his role in Apollo 13 and It is it is a good.

02:47

It is a good book. It's quite interesting and You know, it's sort of sad to be honest with you that That You know once we started figuring

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I started listening to What it was that killed, you know, the rest of the

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Apollo missions after 17 and stuff same people that are Messing things up in the

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United States today. We're messing things up back then interestingly enough, but the left But It's just it has really been sad for me that the

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United States has just Fallen out of Doing anything meaningful along those lines, you know, that's those

03:31

Saturn fives were just Unbelievable. So it's nice to see that same launch pad 39 a

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From which the Saturn fives were launched used today to Okay, send a mannequin in a

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Tesla Roadster to Mars. That's a little bit weird, but You know, what can

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I say? Maybe there will be more important stuff to send to Mars or to the moon

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In in the future and that'll be pretty cool. Anyway that that happened just Before the program started so if you missed it go online take it and check it check it out because the coolest thing

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The absolutely coolest thing was that the two boosters then turn around and come back and land and Just I Mean that was sci -fi that was sci -fi

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I didn't get to see if the if the if the center one made it back to the ship because that's really tricky

04:33

I mean land that that booger on a ship in the middle of the ocean Wow, that's hmm

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That's that's pretty amazing stuff so that's that's that's that's pretty cool anyway

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I'm sure there are a bunch of folks going that was all fake. Anyways, it didn't really happen and we can't do that kind of stuff but There you there you go

04:59

It's it's it's it's great Wow I'm trying oh there it is 877 -753 -3341 is something called a phone number now.

05:10

I I realize phone numbers are really old tech, you know

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I saw a I saw a video of some teenagers they gave them a rotary phone and Asked them to Call out on it and they're all sitting there with the hand set down Dialing it what the hand set down then picking it up and going

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It's just a tone. What what is that? I don't you know, and they they didn't know how to dial out on a rotary phone

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I Can understand that if you've never seen one before but it's just sort of I Don't know just makes me feel really old that you might not have lived actually have used a rotary phone, but we but phone numbers

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Yes Generally, they're not things we use much anymore. You just click and talk now

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But if you remember how to use one We can actually you can actually call into the program it's it's really interesting and we'll put you on the air and we can talk to one another and Stuff like that.

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And all I gotta do is call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one We haven't done it for a long time.

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People are whining Rich is whining as well. So that's the main reason

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I'm doing is that rich started whining and I just can't I can't handle whining it's just that that's why

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Rich's office is on that end of the offices and mines on this end of the office because we just Can't do that.

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So while you're while we're getting a few folks lined up at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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And we're enjoying if somebody in channel could let me know If they can if they verify where that the last one landed appropriately

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The other Falcon heavy side cores have landed at SpaceX is landing zones one and two yes, but I don't see anything about About the main core whether it whether it landed appropriately or not.

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I mean hey getting the first two down Would be a pretty major thing if something went wrong with the last one, you know

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It would still be a pretty major success when you when you can return those things

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So that was that was really really cool. I can't admit Pretty pretty wild stuff.

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Anyway, I Want to while we're getting a few people

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Oops didn't want to do that. I did want to You know, the only problem here is

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I I've got a problem and the problem is that in looking at our church history stuff.

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We're what I've been doing on the program and where we are at PR BC right now is the exact same spot and So I got distracted by the

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Falcon heavy launch and Forgot to look and see what the last thing we covered

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Was here on the program Does anybody remember in channel

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I'll just be I'll just I'll just Drop back ten and punt here We have been talking about Wycliffe and I Think we talked about the

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Lollards But I don't remember if we had gotten into Yan hus or if we got into factors in the rise of the

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Reformation yet we're at the We're at the exact spot At PR BC and so I just I can remember talking about a bunch of this stuff, but I Don't want to necessarily repeat what

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I've what I've said before and unfortunately, I just can't remember What that where we where we exactly were?

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And nobody in channel seems to be listening to me anyways, so that really matter too much

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So No, yeah

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Honestly, I don't I don't recall even putting on the website in the description

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Where how far we had gotten or where we stopped in it, and I don't think anybody else knows either so Tell you what, let's just Let's just Pick up a little

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Yan huss. Okay, and we'll we'll do some huss and that'll take us toward the

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Factors in the rise of Reformation material if I covered it before I apologize. I just I just don't remember

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Don't remember because I've been teaching a lot on this and we'll just was pick up with Yan huss

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Yan huss the word huss, of course means goose he was from Houssa neck goose town and He in the 1390s he encountered

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Wycliffe's ideas And So Wycliffe dies what 1384 so, you know, it's it's

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Relatively soon obviously from our perspective. It's years later and things are so fast now in comparison to the way things were then

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But Relatively quickly the writings of Wycliffe Make it to Bohemia and Into the the hands of Yan huss in 1391 he was appointed preacher at Bethlehem Chapel and was made director of the

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University of Prague I've been told that Bethlehem Chapel is beautiful Hope to get an opportunity to To be there sometime in the future

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Most probably due to the influence of Wycliffe's ideas He translated the Bible into Czech that was very much a part very much a part of Wycliffe's thought

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Getting the Bible into the language of the people. He preached the doctrines of Wycliffe was very popular in Prague And he also confessed to like to play chess

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Theologically, he drank deeply of Wycliffe denied transubstantiation, which they recognized the time was a relatively new thing

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Only haven't been dogmatized in 1215 taught justification by faith alone and said that Christ not the

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Pope is the head of the church as There's all these teachings. He was summoned to the Council of Constance in 1414 under a promise of safe conduct from King Sigismund And that of course that safe conduct is going to become very much very important to the background of what happens with Luther at Worms because Luther went to Worms likewise with a promise of safe conduct well

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Hus came into town a small army of supporters and protectors But as the council dragged on these men had to return home.

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They had Estates to run and and and issues back at home. And so eventually

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They had to leave and so finally Hus was arrested and brought before the council July 6 14 15

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He Was forced to sit during his farcical trial dressed in a black robe wearing a dunce cap with devil's painted upon it if you want to have a good example of how

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Justice worked at the Council of Constance When you you put the defendant in a black robe with a dunce cap with devil's painted on it

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I'd say the fix was in as far as the Decision of the council was concerned

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He asked repeatedly be shown from Scripture where he had erred again, it's gonna be sound very very familiar

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Only you know a hundred and What a hundred and seven 106 years later 106 years later

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His entreaties were ignored and He was condemned

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By the Council of Constance, which by the way, obviously was not called about him

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The Council of Constance was called to heal the papal schism, which we will talk about more in a little bit

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That's that was its primary purpose, but they did lots of things Hus was led by an armed guard of 1 ,000 men of the place of his death and then

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I quote from Philip Schaff It was midday The prisoners hands were fastened behind his back and his neck bound to the stake by a chain on The same spot sometime before so the chronicler notes a

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Cardinal's worn -out mule had been buried The straw and wood were heaped up around Hus's body to the chin and rosin sprinkled upon them

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The offer of life was renewed if he would recant he refused and said I shall die with joy today in the faith of the

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Gospel, which I have preached When Rickenthal who was standing by suggested a confessor he replied there is no need of one.

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I have no mortal sin At the call the bystanders they turned his face away from the east and as the flames arose

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He sang twice Christ thou son of the Living God have mercy upon me The wind blew the fire into the martyrs face and his voice was hushed

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He died praying and singing To remove if possible all chance of preserving relics from the scene

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Hus's clothes and shoes were thrown into the merciless flames the ashes were gathered up and cast into the

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Rhine and so thus Yan Hus the bohemian pre reformer

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Died and Obviously a hundred years later when

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Luther is accused of being a Hussite In a in a debate at Leipzig Johann Eck a brilliant man

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Accused him of being a Hussite and Luther goes and somehow some of Huss's writings had survived in the

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University of Leipzig library and Luther was able to locate them and start doing some reading and come to the realization that Yeah, I'm a

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Hussite And This is when Luther really began to realize that Continuing down the road that he was traveling would lead him to the conclusions that Wycliffe and the

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Lawlords had come to and that was that the Pope was the Antichrist and This that debate at Leipzig as we will see it was also where Luther began to formulate his understanding of ultimate authorities and That then would be relevant to the issue of solo scriptura

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Now it is very very important to recognize And I see we have a number of calls already.

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So we'll get to them in just a moment Very very quickly here

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It's very important to recognize The reality of The fact that I've said it many times before I would not have chosen

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Martin Luther to be the Flash point in the beginning of the

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Reformation I would have Seen much more benefit in someone like Wycliffe or even a

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Huss But it was not time and When we you know when history gives us the opportunity of of looking back and Seeing what factors were necessary in the beginning of the

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Reformation This does help us to gain some serious insights into What the

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Reformation was about and to avoid and this is something you're gonna hear me talk a lot about to avoid the cartoonish view of The Reformation that is unfortunately

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Far too prevalent even amongst good reformed people. There's a there's a simply cartoonish perspective and so to avoid that it is helpful to look at the most important Factors that Had to they had to come together

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To Give us the Reformation and so in the next section what we'll do is we will look at what those issues were and Just as in a in a preview sense

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Degradation in the papacy So the great schism the

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Avignon papacy the Babylonian captivity Then the existence of two popes then after the

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Council of Pisa three popes This had gone on for nearly a hundred years, you know, the 14th century was a rough century

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Think about it. You had You had the papal schism You had the black death

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The plague that took out Minimally a third and in many places over half of the human population and very quickly

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Huge impact huge societal impact there were quite interestingly enough

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Climate change issues going on during that century Well, there had been century and century and a half before there had been a warming

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Had nothing to do with human beings at all People don't want you to know about that, but there had been a warming and Then there was a cooling and With the warming came more food.

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And so you had larger population and once the cooling happens they have as much food and people die and That's sort of how it works and so You had major issues like that going on then

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In the 15th century you have the fall of Constantinople right around the exact same time you have the invention in the

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West of printing with Gutenberg's press and You have the rise the

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Renaissance humanism and Hence the printing of the

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Greek New Testament a greater prevalence of knowledge

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During this time you have the first Hebrew grammars being written

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The language starts becoming being known again Greek becomes somewhat better known than it had been before and These all become vitally important foundational issues for the

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Reformation So as we look back we can see God's hand of Providence guiding and directing

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And I mentioned on Sunday when I was covering this material When when we when we have people in our age that have this

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Really unusual ability To look at trends today and see where they're going

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Francis Schaeffer was like that He could see where things were going he was warning about stuff that we're now seeing

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And you know, he sounded a little bit alarmist, didn't he? I could never get that far.

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Well, actually It can and it has and We look at those folks as almost having a prophetic

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Capacity what it really is is an ability to see Trends and To have enough perspective to see where they're going

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There are very very few people in the days of Luther That we're sitting there going.

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I think it's time. You know just Would never have expected

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A little rural

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Town that must have smelt like all rural towns did there was a reason why Martin Luther talked about piles of dung

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No one expected that that would be where the spark would come from but in in In God's Providence, that's where it's where it came from.

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So there you go. We will I will try to remember That where we are But I'm gonna tell you right now

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It's not good to be teaching two different classes on the same material at the same time there You're just never gonna never gonna remember where in the world you are.

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So All right, been a long time. Does this stuff still work? It has been forever since we

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Did this and so I don't I don't even know if it still works, but still have the interface here and okay.

23:21

All right, so Let's let's go to the phones as they say and talk with Nathaniel.

23:28

Hi Nathaniel Good I Was that g3?

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I missed the debate because we got caught in the storm or whatever Well, I'm sorry, then you then you really weren't at g3 because if you weren't there

23:45

Really missed the exciting stuff, but hey, you know, it's it's weather happens

23:53

The two the two Presentations you did. I'm sorry. I was actually looking for you because I wanted you to sign my

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Greek New Testament Which I would not do Which I would not do I I I don't sign

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Bibles When people yeah when people ask me to sign stuff like that. I go. I didn't write it. So Yeah, no

24:16

No, no, I don't think so we've got good enough I have a question about the textual variant and John 118.

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Mm -hmm You in your debate with the guy from neglect in Crisco you

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He asked you about it and you said you would be willing to go through it with him

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I was wondering like how how would you go about that with somebody like that? well,

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I Honestly don't think that That that Joe Has done a whole lot of in -depth

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Textual critical work Basically the

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INC guys will go with whatever works that's why they were throwing out all sorts of different translations and and They don't stick with one translation because there's going to be other stuff in that translation like they kept using

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The New Living Translation, but there are a bunch of places where the NLT completely contradicted them as well

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But they just wouldn't wouldn't go with it at that point. So when you when you have a

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When you already know what you want the text to say Then you'll use different standards to analyze textual variants.

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That's one of the problems I have with my ecclesiastical text friends and People like that is they already know what the text is supposed to say and so they just handle each variant in such a way as to say it so you can you can encounter a

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Variant where it is just so painfully obvious what the original is, you know

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Revelation 16 15 all the Greek manuscripts say the same thing, but The the

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King James goes different direction because of a conjectural emendation from Theodore Beza and and so people say well

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There's some evidence that maybe some you know a century earlier. There was a Latin rendering that did that They they will use one set of standards to come up with something that substantiates the

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King James or the Texas Receptus That they would never use anyplace else that if you were to apply to almost any other

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Textual variant would result in a change in the TR the King James. They won't do that They they already have their text and the

26:41

INC guys they already know what the Bible is supposed to say because their ministers have told them what it's supposed to say and so, you know

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It would be worthwhile Only to people who have an honest desire to know what the text actually says what the manuscripts say

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To walk through something like that, but it was obvious that Mr.

27:08

Ventilacion, for example at another point When we looked at the

27:14

Granville Sharp constructions, oh, no. No, it doesn't really mean that you know, it's it there's no

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Consistency that their methodology could never have produced a Greek New Testament could not

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Could not answer the questions that need to be answered to actually produce something like that. So That's the difference between serious

27:36

Believing but serious scholarship and the abuse of the text and So when

27:44

I said, you know We could walk through that the point being we can we can sit down and say okay, let's let's notice something here the all the earliest manuscripts we have of The Gospel of John that contain this section not all of them contain this section but It is interesting that p66 p75 both contain the beginning of the

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Gospel of John and They both use the term to us of Jesus here now one has hot monogamous.

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They asked the other one just simply has monogamous they asked and So, you know, they're the only difference being whether monogamous has the article or not

28:31

Well, they all says the article before monogamous But both use the term God of of Jesus in this text along with The the first hand of Sinaiticus a manuscript 33 which has taken a interestingly enough over the the past couple of decades has really been

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Lifted up exalted. It's probably not the best best term to use but It's a 9th century

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Manuscript Which you might say what's you know, it's not overly old, but it seems to really

29:14

Have been taken from an extremely early text copy from the extremely early text certainly

29:21

Church Fathers You know Sinaiticus Vaticanus p66 p75 the original hand of Ciel the

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Syriac the Harklian and others some parts of origin

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Didymus have the word God and the vast majority of everything else has son because monogamous we us is

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Normative Yohannine usage that's anybody who has memorized John 3 16

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You're familiar with hominogamous we us the only begotten Son And that's what's found in the vast majority of manuscripts that contain

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John chapter 1 But all the earliest the the the four earliest

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Manuscripts we have of John our p66 p75 Sinaiticus and Vaticanus and they all say

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They all say the same thing and so that's sort of You know

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Important from a textual critical perspective. I'll be really interested in seeing what happens when the

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ECM the editio critica mayor of John comes out.

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It's it's being worked on Not sure if it's gonna be John first or Mark first or I Think one of the

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Gospels is going to be next in In the ECM, but it will be interesting to see

30:49

What happens with the application of CB GM to John 118 that will be that'll be fascinating Might give some perspective as to exactly how much weight to be given to CB GM a lot of us have questions relating to that subject and The issue of the antiquity of texts and manuscripts and things like that, but that's gonna drag us way way off way way off base, but Yeah, I Could simply tell in the debate and this is just the way it is when you're dealing with INC they will they will quote

31:31

Any source that is favorable to them? Whether they are consistent in doing that or not

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And the only way you can get away with that is if you're assuming That the people following you are not thinking critically and will not think critically and if they do you're willing to lose them

31:48

And that's the sign of a cult That's the sign of a cult. So That's that's why for example today it is fascinating to see the

32:01

Destructive impact on the Mormon Church of The mainstreaming of information that only 20 -30 years ago 99 % of Mormons had no idea of or even vociferously denied or the church was vociferously denying or things like that that Joseph Smith seer stone and and the real history of Joseph Smith some of us, you know people like the like Gerald and Sandra Tanner were

32:30

We're talking about this stuff decades ago. And now everybody's talking about it including

32:36

Mormons and you're seeing as a result this massive Shift in how that entire organization exists and Or whether it will continue to exist to be quite honest with you stuff going on in Salt Lake is fascinating, but the point is cults and isms

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Use a totalitarian Mechanism of authority and they'll apply that to textual criticism anything else just We're your ministers.

33:04

We tell you this is the way you're supposed to view this so you view it that way That's that's all there is to it Okay All right.

33:14

Okie dokie, sir Okay, there's a one quick question We've been on for 10 minutes, but we'll see if it could be quick When are you gonna redo the role -playing where we can call in and you can be like a

33:27

Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon? Well, you know Role -playing was fun back before Before YouTube Because I could actually do

33:42

I would actually get to go into churches and do role plays where people actually thought that I was that That's when it's really fun.

33:49

That's when you can You can get even junior high schoolers to to pay attention, which is the biggest trick on the planet

33:58

So, but yeah Maybe we'll do something like that again. I don't know I Think one of the reasons that I sometimes avoid stuff like that these days and I so many critics that no matter what

34:09

I do You know, I get people that that you know Just just accuse me of everything under the

34:15

Sun and and I could just see what would happen if I started role -playing something See James White really doesn't believe the

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Trinity is relevant and you know You got 14 people writing blog articles about it and it's just the insanity of the internet is is pretty wild these days

34:29

We'll think about it. Well, we'll think about thanks Nathaniel. No problem. All right. Have a good one

34:35

All right, let's talk with Bob. Hi Bob Hey, dr.

34:41

White Help me through this with a good explanation of my

34:46

Thinking about limited atonement in Calvinism and I'm neither Calvinist nor Armenian I'm kind of in the middle with the modem as my suppose but Well, here's my here's my dilemma

34:58

God is big enough to Save every soul

35:03

By his sovereign and pre pre -determined will I understand that and I believe that but I also believe there's so many passages in the

35:11

Bible whosoever will by John 3 16 The jailer the

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Philippian jailer that Paul said what must I do to be saved? He said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ Then there's that passage

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I love in Acts 2 23 This man delivered up to you by the predetermined plan and for knowledge of God, but you nailed to a cross why?

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Why couldn't in with God being a big big big God use the sovereignty of?

35:40

God of himself and the free will of man in the plan of salvation you know,

35:47

I You're not one that's real argumentative on limited atonement, I don't think but I've heard people on YouTube just you know it's

35:56

Cannot be anything but the sovereignty of God you can't lift your little finger and I understand that I believe in the sovereignty of God But I also believe there's so many passages of whosoever will in the

36:08

New Testament that I believe there's there's a there's two parts To it and I believe God planned it that way.

36:14

It's just like God Becoming man and having a heart and having two lungs and having fingerprints

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He was actually God, but he was a man. So if he could do that, why couldn't there be a two -pronged?

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Explanation for how a person is saved through the sovereignty of God and the free will of man's choice well for the simple reason that The question has to be asked the ultimate choice

36:43

Comes from whom and if you posit that man has autonomous will

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Then you have two different autonomous wills in conflict with one another the issue is you're you're properly recognizing that God uses means and that man has a will the problem is what you're not recognizing is you're putting

37:08

Man's free will and God's autonomous free will in the same category and they can't be

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God's will by nature since he's God has to be fundamentally different Than the will of man man is a creature man is limited in time and space and knowledge he exists for a very brief period of time and then

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As the grass the field he withers or as the vapor he disappears So the nature of man's will cannot be made equal to the nature of God's will who is eternal and who is working all things after the counsel of his will and so every creaturely will has to be subsumed under the decree of God and so When you say free will of course, that's not a biblical phrase

38:01

The only time the word free will appears in the Bible is when you're talking about sacrifices that someone can choose to give

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That is not based upon there having committed a particular sin, which is not what the

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Greek philosophical concept of free will means But that the problem is the utilization of that terminology.

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It should be creaturely will God has made man in such a fashion that man has a will and man is held

38:30

Accountable for the exercise of his will the problem is the will makes decisions based upon the nature of The individual who has that will and so since we fell in our father

38:44

Adam The Bible tells us that we are unable to do that Which is pleasing in God's sight

38:51

Romans chapter 8 makes it very clear That those who are in the flesh who have not been born again are not able to submit themselves

39:00

To the law of God. It's it's a direct didactic teaching It's not well, we can look over here and here's something said about false teachers and therefore that implies this no you have direct teaching from the

39:13

Apostle on the doctrine of salvation where he Specifically says those who are according to flesh are not able to submit to the law of God And if the law of God is that we are to repent and believe

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Then obviously something must happen first, which is why you have the teaching of the

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Lord Jesus who he says very plainly no man is Capable is able of coming to me unless that person is drawn by the father and if you well

39:42

Everybody's drawn by the father. Well, that means everyone's gonna be raised up. You just became a universalist because Everyone that is drawn by the

39:49

Father to the Son is raised up by the Son the last day The reality is that When you say well, why can't it be both?

39:57

well, you're the the both what you're smuggling into the both is an Elevation of the creaturely will to an equal status with the divine will and it simply was never designed to do that The Bible never teaches it

40:12

And so are there are there some people who? You know go to extremes on both sides.

40:19

Yeah, there are there are the Hypers and those people who say that that man's will is not even a part of God's decree

40:27

That that that man man's will is is just basically destroyed in the fall The Bible never teaches any of that on the other hand you got the vast majority of man's religions which try to elevate man's will to the point of controlling the

40:44

Final outcome of salvation though there be whatever willing to say that God does 99 % of it

40:50

But the ultimate control has to be in man's hand because if it isn't Then it is truly the

40:58

Romans 9 situation and you have people saying well Why is he still find fault and and so on and so forth so that man's religions?

41:06

Always have to find some way of controlling the grace of God whether it's by 1 % or 10 % or 20 %

41:14

It doesn't really matter. It all has ends up having the same the same effect And so I guess my answer would be that when you say well

41:22

Why can't it be God's sovereignty and man's free will the Bible does not teach that man has free will the

41:27

Bible teaches plainly that man's will is Enslaved to sin and when

41:34

Jesus taught that in John chapter 8 when he he said the people who were following him there They had believed in him not interestingly enough

41:41

It's a form of the word belief that in John never refers to saving faith But they liked what he was saying and so Jesus said if you continue in my word

41:50

Then you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free and as soon as he said that They got really angry.

41:57

Don't tell me we need to be made free. We've never been enslaved Anyway, these are people who were enslaved to the

42:02

Romans at the time We've never been enslaved to anybody and by the end of the chapter. They're picking up stones to stone Jesus And so my experience has been that when you emphasize to man

42:13

His deadness and sin and the fact that he needs resurrection life to be able to even make that move toward God that This people find this to be extremely offensive extremely offensive so That's that's my answer is that the

42:33

Bible doesn't present them as two Equal truths I'm a compatibilist

42:39

I believe that man's creaturely will and God's holding him accountable for his acting on that Will is a part of God's sovereign decree.

42:49

It is a part of how he demonstrates his justice It's it's part of how we as human beings are distinguished from the animal but man remains the creature and In the final analysis

43:03

God is the one who accomplishes his will not man's will So and that would be my response

43:13

Well, that's a good response, but I still think just like the thief on the cross, you know when he got hung up He was not saved but Three hours later two and a half hours later.

43:24

He was well The last thing Bob the last thing that the thief on the cross would do would be a boast of his free will

43:32

I can assure you of That because when you're hanging on a cross you ain't thinking about free will There was a gracious act of God in that in that man's life that took place at that at that point in time.

43:45

But Yeah, yeah, and so yeah as Rich pointed out then there's a guy on the other cross

43:51

Who is in the exact same situation and yet he dies cursing Christ What was the difference between the two was was the one thief that was saved a better thief than the person who wasn't?

44:03

Was he more sensitive? Was he more was he more? Spiritually enlightened and and Insightful or was

44:12

God's grace get granted to the one and it wasn't granted to the other you know if It's it's pretty straightforward when you when you consider it on those lines what you're gonna have to say fundamentally

44:26

If you if you take that perspective, is that the reason anybody is saved is because they are

44:33

Somehow different than somebody else You could however you want to put it more spiritually sensitive more spiritually insightful

44:43

But somehow you're better and I say no, we're not better it is it is the the sovereign act of the

44:52

Spirit of God in quelling my rebellion and The beautiful description of Scripture is that God takes out that heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh

45:01

Well, I can guarantee you no heart of stone has ever chosen to become a heart of flesh hearts of stone like being hearts of stone

45:10

It is the grace of God that changes a person's heart and you're the scholar and I won't tell you something

45:16

These people that are attacking you for this Muslim stuff James you are doing

45:21

Christianity a great service because you are letting us know what these people believe and how anyone

45:27

The Medford lady or all that how they could attack you on that I have learned so much from you about what

45:35

Muslims believe Jehovah's Witnesses Mormons looking it back on YouTube stuff You have to know what these other people believe to find out, you know to grow in your face

45:45

So I just want to applaud you and doing what you're doing. Thank you. Take the flack All right, thanks

45:51

Bob, thanks for your call. Have a good one. God bless 877 -753 -3341 and I don't have a pronunciation here, but Jamil Yes, Jamil.

46:06

Jamil, how are you? I'm doing well. How are you, sir? Good Okay, my question was um, me and my friends were having a

46:13

Bible study the other night and you know we're going through some commentary and it um Led us to Micah 7 -4

46:21

All of us were using, you know different translations. My friend has an NIV. I Have a

46:26

KJV and a ESV another friend. He was using a I think a KJV as well but in the translation of the

46:33

NIV it differed of Significantly or at least it felt significant to us From the other translations that we had we had our you know

46:42

Computers open and we're like going through the NASB and how you know, it translated Micah 7 -4

46:47

The ESV how it translated Micah 7 -4 because we have you know, our own Bibles on us We're just like to you know, the question pretty much is

46:56

How would we reconcile the way the NIV translated Micah 7 -4 where it says

47:02

The best of them is like a briar The most upright worse than a thornhenge

47:08

The day God visits you has come The day your watchman sound the alarm Watchman sound the alarm now your time is now is the time of your confusion where all the other ones say

47:19

Especially where it says the day God visits you has come like the ESV says the day

47:24

Watch the day of your watchman of your punishment has come now. The confusion is at hand

47:29

We just just how could we like reconcile the fact that they? pretty much That verse compared to all everybody else well,

47:39

I Only have the NASB up here As far as an English translation is concerned, but I didn't honestly hear any

47:51

Major conceptual difference between the NIV and the NASB What what did you think was the

48:00

I mean other than the day when when you post your watchman your punishment will come?

48:08

How is that different Well, we Just pretty much the fact that they use the day

48:13

God visits you has come versus the day of your punishment has come You were just like why did the

48:20

NIV choose to use God versus just everybody else just of your punishment We just just wanted to reconcile that Well That would that would require taking the time to compare

48:37

English translations and On the fly look at whether there is I don't

48:42

I'm not seeing just looking at the At the

48:48

Hebrew, I'm not seeing any textual variations listed, but I don't have the the

48:53

BHS apparatus up on my up on my screen at the moment, so that that kind of thing would require a fair amount of time to To answer in any meaningful fashion to be honest with you because you have to sit down.

49:09

It's It's not the type of thing that you can just Expect somebody to look at it and and go.

49:15

Oh, well, it's XY or Z I've never preached Micah 7 -4. So I've never translated it and I'd have to Try to look through Various reference tools to try to find

49:34

Material, you know, they would just it would take quite some time and it's really not something you can do just on the fly

49:40

Okay. I mean, I appreciate you giving it a shot for us My friends are actually listening right now. Yeah, I just I just didn't see

49:46

I just didn't see that there was a A major Conceptual difference between The the translations or Things like that, that's why

50:01

I just wasn't sure what what what we're looking at and if I for some reason I'm having a hard time finding my

50:09

BHS Materials here Because I wanted

50:17

I wanted to look at the What's there and unfortunately I'm just not finding it so won't be able to Give you anything more than that.

50:29

Sorry about that. I appreciate it. Okay. Thanks. All right Let me see here

50:37

D D D D D D. Where did that? Where did my BHS stuff go.

50:43

I you know, it's funny as soon as the program's over. It'll be oh, it's right there It's one of the problems with having a little bit too much stuff in your in in your library,

50:54

I suppose but It should be under Hebrew tools and I am not seeing the

51:02

BHS. There's BHS guide. That's not gonna help me hmm Well, that's something

51:08

I'm gonna have to fix because this is the this is the unit that needs to have that Just sitting there ready to go.

51:14

So it should have been part of my Old Testament text. Well my error at that point and Yeah, just just doesn't want to show up Let me try just one other thing real quick here

51:31

Hmm no, it just does it's just not even listening. That's interesting hmm

51:39

BHS untagged. Oh Wait, BHS apparatus. Haha.

51:44

I use the back the back door Yeah, okay,

51:51

I'm seeing a fair number of probably Listed here, so it does look like there are some issues in regards to The text and Hence, that's probably what has led to I don't say anything about God anywhere there

52:11

But Day of Judgment is obviously is frequently associated with God's judgment. So maybe that's where that came from but I don't we'll have to have to look that up sometime and See if there's anything more to that Oh my goodness,

52:26

Andrew. Hello Andrew And just want to be real clear as somebody who has the last name

52:33

Medford that it was Janet Medford Yes, yes Yes, it's

52:40

M -E -F -F -E -R -D. Yeah. Yeah different different M -E -F -O -R -D But it's actually in relation to that, so I'm sure

52:52

I Supporter of y 'all have supported y 'all financially and supported y 'all in prayer through dealings with issues with people like Janet Medford and Brennan house and I've been with y 'all on that side.

53:06

However at the same time It would seem that on the political end that I do see the stuff going on with Islam the least

53:18

Islamic cultures Making their way slowly into the West. It's more in Europe But it's definitely here.

53:26

And so I have at least seen some internal at least seeming internally consistency of saying that yes, we need to treat these people with respect honor as Said in 2nd

53:40

Peter, but at the same time, what do we need to be doing? Governmentally, and did you see how those two things could almost seem incongruent on those fronts?

53:50

Well, yeah as a as a as a Christian our first and foremost commandment is to be gospel -bearing individuals and desirous of leading anyone who has been given a false hope and anyone who understands

54:11

Islamic theology cannot help but look at a faithful Muslim and Be impressed by the devotion that they have to their religion

54:26

It's it's hard to get most Christians to show up on time for Sunday school. Let alone have somebody pray five times a day

54:34

Right you you see these individuals. You cannot help but be impressed with their religiosity and yet at the same time your heart is broken by the fact that because of The ignorance of the author of the

54:46

Quran they are cut off from having a mediator they have a

54:55

Wrathful God and they have God's law and they have a clearer picture of eternal punishment

55:03

Then is is found in anything Christianity be perving honest with you

55:09

That doesn't make it true it just means that there is this it's there and So they're in this horrible position.

55:15

And so that has to be the first priority in our mind is

55:21

Whatever we do we want to be individuals who will not act out of fear or prejudice against the alien or the the unknown person we want to be the person who is going to Present the gospel of Jesus Christ in the clearest possible way to these individuals and trusting that That God has his people amongst every tribe tongue people a nation and when you meet converted

55:52

Muslims when you meet Individuals who have come to know the truth about who Jesus Christ was there is a joy that they have that is

56:01

Absolutely infectious and it's wonderful. It's wonderful to see at the same time when we see what's happening in Europe, I think what you're seeing happening in Europe is not so much the strength of a

56:17

Muslim worldview or Sharia or anything like that. What you have is the dead shell of Of a dead state

56:29

Christianity in most of these nations that is simply imploding under its own weight and Islam is simply filling in like a like a vacuum, you know nature abhors a vacuum and so It's it's it's moving in not on the power of its

56:48

Argumentation or on the power of its culture, but on the fact that dead decaying

56:54

Christianity has led to a secular worldview and that secular worldview is

57:00

Absolutely incapable of really meeting the needs of mankind and so I Hesitate to think

57:12

I'm not sure why so many people attribute to Islam some type of powerful impetus

57:22

When in reality, I think if you look at it, it's not the strength of Islamic arguments.

57:28

It is the degradation of the secular society in Europe that is that is leading to the the changes in demographics that were that we're seeing and so I I fully understand the political

57:46

You know, we we want to have a secure nation. We want to have a nation of laws and as such

57:53

There is a there is a conflict a Christian is going to be conflicted

58:00

Because we want to have the opportunity to reach out in in Evangelistic zeal to all people but a lot of us want to do that at arm's length and We have the the counterbalancing elements and that is we need you know

58:19

A nation has to have security you can't you can't just simply throw your borders open you no nation can survive that It is the end of any type of Nation and and the problem is once you don't have nation states anymore you have to have some major controlling power and Everybody who's volunteering to do that has the wrong worldview and so it's it's frightening to even think about secular totalitarianism possessing the kind of technological

58:52

Capacity to track people's activities in their every their every movement I Don't know what's coming in the future, but I I can say this.

59:03

I don't think Islam is the primary Concern in the future for the people the

59:09

West. I think secular secularism is and Yeah, go ahead

59:16

Do you do I'm just saying so it sounds more like you're saying that it's not necessarily

59:22

Speaking of the strength of the Islamic culture or and worldview and everything associated with that more speaking to the

59:30

I Guess you could say a house of cards that has been built in Western Europe and now just with something even with a little bit of strength like Islam is just knocking it all down Oh, yeah,

59:40

I mean Post -christian Europe and let's say post -christian United States. Look at the look at the moral and ethical chaos

59:50

That that is enveloping us I mean if you can't figure out who a boy and a girl is anymore that I'm sorry

59:55

Your culture is not gonna last very long and say what you will about Islam at least they know what a boy and a girl is so You know just on a just on a basic level

01:00:07

One one culture is going to predominate over the predominate over the other and so Yeah, I am saying, you know,

01:00:16

I do not underestimate the The fact that we have so many brothers and sisters who suffer in Islamic nations today

01:00:25

But the interesting thing is those who suffer under Islam in Islamic nations

01:00:32

Are willing to give themselves out of love to proclaim the gospel to their very persecutors

01:00:38

They're not asking that we come in militarily and free them from that They recognize that would be completely inappropriate

01:00:47

Christian perspective, but they would like to be armed so to speak with what they need not only to maintain their own churches and their children the faith so on so forth, but then to respond and to to the attacks of Islam and and to give a

01:01:05

Meaningful response and that's one of the things that we're thankful that we're able to do and you know as This past year pointed out people overseas were were unanimous in their excitement as to what we were getting to do where we were getting to do it the opportunities of getting the gospel into places that it would generally not go before and so They trust in the power of the gospel.

01:01:33

We need to learn to trust the same thing it doesn't mean that we do stupid things like throwing throwing borders away and and just letting everybody in their 13th cousin come in There there has to everything needs to be done decently in an order

01:01:48

The problem is that even here in the United States, what's the big issue right now? We don't have a clear worldview under undergirding our culture any longer.

01:01:55

You're not a lot well, it's there but they're not admitting what it is and The this secular humanistic worldview

01:02:04

Is incompatible with the system of laws that we have possessed up this point something's gonna have to give Something's gonna have to give right

01:02:12

You know, you've heard me quote John Adams before the Constitution Was written for a moral and religious people.

01:02:18

It is utterly incapable to the governance of any other That's scary

01:02:25

That's scary to me. I wish I had easy answers I wish I had easy answers. The only easy answer that I do have is that as a follower of Jesus Christ, I am called to love and to proclaim his lordship to all people and Everything else has to be prioritized underneath that And how and and you know what we're gonna have disagreements as to exactly how that's gonna work out.

01:02:53

I I allow for that I'm not telling everybody they have to absolutely agree with me But the the reason

01:02:58

I'm a thorn in certain people's sides is I point out that as Christians our first motivation can not be fear

01:03:09

And unfortunately for many Chris and I can't tell you I can't tell you Andrew how many people have had contact me

01:03:15

Who said you know what? I didn't like it when you first started talking about it But I've been convicted that I wouldn't speak up and talk to a

01:03:24

Muslim Because I would have fear and I've had to deal with that and and so maybe that's what the

01:03:30

Lord had intend intended all along I don't know Hopefully God gives us grace and peace of that and just for the record

01:03:39

I am I'm apologizing in advance any and all Black you may get for answering this question.

01:03:46

Sorry about that. Oh Okay Believe me

01:03:53

I it's so I'm so accustomed to it now every day that it I don't even it's just like yeah

01:03:58

What what's it gonna be today? Ah, who knows? It'll be interesting Alright, thanks.

01:04:04

God bless 877 -753 -3341 Let's what

01:04:10

Bob was that also his last one Arlington, Texas to there's somewhere in Texas.

01:04:15

Let's talk with Bryson. Hi Bryson Hey James My question was on Your interpretation of Hebrews 1029.

01:04:25

I was watching your debate with Trent horn where he went to this text and he was trying to get you to answer who that he was that was sanctified and he pointed out in your book that you said that he was

01:04:38

Jesus, so He was trying to stumble you up by saying that what Jesus can't be the one that sanctified because you sanctified

01:04:45

Believers and Jesus himself is obviously not a believer and then he pulled up the

01:04:50

Thomas Schreiner quote where Schreiner disagrees with you and I just wanted to ask you a question on like what made you come to that conclusion because I know you didn't get enough

01:05:01

Time in the condemnation to really flesh it out to be able to respond to him. Maybe in a way that You may have wanted to so I want to ask why well, why do you think that he in?

01:05:13

Hebrews 1029 is Jesus and not a believer. Well, the best the best way to answer that is to direct you to The sermons in the series on Hebrews.

01:05:24

I did 80 sermons through the book of Hebrews that are on the sermon audio website at the

01:05:30

PR BC website, the the sermon series is still posted there and If you

01:05:38

You could just do the Hebrews 10 Sermons there were there were multiple sermons, but fundamentally

01:05:47

I Pointed out that while it's a minority position When you have people like John Owen in your camp

01:05:55

You can sort of go. Yeah, whatever I'm not worried about the the minority so much as the consistency in the understanding of what is being stated in Hebrews chapter 10

01:06:07

Fundamentally if you if you say That By which he was sanctified so If if you if you take as the object of Hey, I have a ghastly

01:06:26

The person who deserves punishment You are introducing a fundamental contradiction in Hebrews chapter 10 which is the climax of the apologetic argumentation of the book of Hebrews I mean you you from chapter 10 you go into the faith chapter and then beginning in chapter 12 into the into the practical application, so this is

01:06:55

For for the book of Hebrews. This is the Romans 8 Of the book of Romans, this is the this is the pinnacle.

01:07:03

This is this is where you're fundamentally establishing the argument of the epistle, which is there's nothing to go back to and so Up to this point the argument back in chapter 10 verses 10 to 14

01:07:19

Was the perfection of the one -time sacrifice of Christ over against the

01:07:29

Repeated sacrifices of the Old Covenant, which could not bring about perfection but verses 10 through 14

01:07:37

Make it very plain that the work of Christ Has as its outcome the intention that the triune

01:07:47

God intended that action to have and so if you go a few verses later and literally a matter of sentences later and Say well, yeah, but I'm gonna use the same terminology here and I'm going to apply it to the person who denies

01:08:06

Christ Not only are you going against the pattern that we saw back in Hebrews chapter 6 where you have this strong warning section, but then it's followed by We are convinced of better things concerning you things which accompanies salvation and then

01:08:23

Christ has entered as your forerunner into the holy place We have a anchor for the soul and Jesus represents us and have all the rest that stuff there in Hebrews chapter 6

01:08:33

Well, if you go to Hebrews chapter 10, you've sort of got the same thing, but in reverse you have the promises first and then you have this warning section in light of that and There's no question

01:08:49

What's in view here is the person who would go back It's the person who would offer sacrifice is one of the reasons why it's plain that the book of Hebrews is written prior to the destruction of the temple in 8070 is there has to be a way for this to have been been a temptation at the time is to go back

01:09:08

Offer sacrifice curse Christ trample underfoot the blood of the Son of God All the rest of these things there were people who did that well, what was their state what was

01:09:21

Their their condition and if you take the idea that yeah

01:09:26

They're they were perfected in Hebrews chapter 10. And then the work of the

01:09:31

Messiah is undone by their actions The fundamental argument of the supremacy and superiority of Christ to all the

01:09:41

Old Covenant is Destroyed at the very climax of the of the epistle and I just go I And John Owen and others go.

01:09:50

No, I don't think that's what the what the final argument is is going to be No one can argue that on Greek grammatical grounds

01:10:00

Hagioste can have Either Christ or the apostate as its subject.

01:10:07

That's not even a question The question is what is consistent with the argument of the epistle?

01:10:13

And what's interesting to me is I can understand why a Roman Catholic who doesn't believe the death of Christ has ever perfected anybody

01:10:21

And and doesn't see that the the repeated arguments of the epistle

01:10:27

One time one time they don't have a one time They haven't a Over and over and over never perfecting sacrifice.

01:10:37

They they're in the position of the Jews I can understand why they're not going to get the book of Hebrews, but but reformed people who have an understanding of the union of the elect with Christ and the

01:10:52

The fact that his death is our death our union with Christ in his death I would think that we would be the first ones to recognize what's really going on here but Especially those in the

01:11:05

Federal vision movement Are are big on emphasizing that other reading of Hebrews chapter 10, which leads to some some

01:11:15

I think fundamental departures from historic reformed understanding of the perfection of the work of Christ and The true meaning of substitution and and things like that that we won't go into New perspectivism or anything like that or the federal vision and stuff like that right here.

01:11:35

So for me, it's simple consistency My theory is the book of Hebrews is a sermon

01:11:43

Preached by the Apostle Paul that was translated into Greek. It was preached by Paul in Aramaic Hebrew and was translated by Luke into Greek that explains the form that it has and For the

01:11:58

Apostle Paul to shoot himself in the head Metaphorically speaking at the very climax of his argument

01:12:07

In making application in in the warning passage just doesn't make any any sense whatsoever.

01:12:12

So grammatically It is perfectly possible To read it in either direction and then theologically then

01:12:21

When you talk about the blood of the covenant Having just finished the whole discussion of the

01:12:27

Son of God who took on flesh. In fact, interestingly enough if you go back to Hebrews 10 5

01:12:44

The writer has specifically cited a

01:12:50

Textual variant from the Greek Septuagint to emphasize the body given by Jesus that brings about the sanctification of those for whom he dies

01:13:05

If you're familiar with it a body you have prepared for me in the Hebrew. It's something about boring out an ear so for hearing for hearing purposes and It's pretty obvious that the writer is choosing the

01:13:21

Greek Septuagint reading specifically to emphasize that sacrificial language of a body and the giving of that body and So if there if that's such a strong element of the argumentation that then in verses 10 through 14 is

01:13:40

You know by the one -time offering of the body there it is then you get down to 29 and all of a sudden go

01:13:48

Yeah, but the blood of the covenant here Isn't the it's not the one who who gave that blood and his body and his being sanctified as high priest.

01:13:58

No, it's Now we're gonna say it's the one who is the apostate and therefore we can say that apostates were actually sanctified and they were set

01:14:06

Apart and so they have to be part of the sacrificial purpose and the whole nine yards. I find it utterly inconsistent with with the whole argument of the epistle, so that's

01:14:18

That's where I where I go with it. And if someone wants to go well, but you know tactically in a debate

01:14:25

I don't care debates are not what determined the truth the whole Council of God is what determines the truth and if the truth of a text

01:14:36

Takes too long to be able to express in a debate. Well, so be it

01:14:41

I'm gonna I'm gonna assume that God's gonna continue building his kingdom one way or the other doesn't matter how the debate goes

01:14:49

Right, that's why I want to call and get a fuller explanation Since I know that you didn't have a lot of time in the cross examination.

01:14:56

Well, that is one of the problems Let's be honest with with debates is technically technically

01:15:02

That kind of thing shouldn't be brought up in that context I mean the actual rule is

01:15:09

That you you bring up your arguments in your opening statement And then you flesh those things out and however far you get

01:15:17

Should delimit the area of discussion after that. That's never how it happens

01:15:22

It's never how it happens, unfortunately But technically it's not supposed to happen

01:15:29

All righty. What? Okay Okay All right, so In the chat, they were talking about You know what's gonna happen with Western civilization in light of post -modernism and various things like that What would you say if you could name one thing or two things or whatever?

01:15:50

would be the biggest Danger to the church in Western culture whether this is prosperity gospel or lack of proper church discipline or Discipleship, what would you say would be the biggest?

01:16:07

Danger to the church that we have in 2018 and going forward Well, first of all, you gave me a crick in the neck because we changed direction so fast

01:16:17

And so I'm gonna have to see my chiropractor after this Assumed what you meant was a short follow -up question on the first one

01:16:26

But now everybody else in line for calls really doesn't like you anymore. So I'd be careful.

01:16:32

Your name was Bob, right? Okay. Anyway, I Actually, but though I've answered this question numerous times and it really came up in in the last call, too

01:16:41

I I think that the The greatest

01:16:48

Danger to the church in 2018 Obviously is going to be dependent upon you know where you are

01:16:54

I don't think the greatest danger to the church in the United States is the same thing as the greatest danger to the church in South Africa or Uganda or China?

01:17:03

Obviously each one of those contexts is going to be going to be different in South Africa there's just this massive amount of false teaching and the prosperity gospel and the

01:17:14

Absolute foolishness of what of what goes on there China. It's obvious The Chinese communists are are doubling down on establishing absolute totalitarianism and mind control in the

01:17:28

United States, it's it is obviously a the the rise of secular totalitarianism the

01:17:36

Destruction of the ability of the church to openly and and and plainly teach

01:17:41

God's truth. It's it's coming We will lose access to Public spheres.

01:17:48

We're losing it right now. We're seeing on University if you want to see the future of the culture look at the university campuses

01:17:56

Right now Christians do not have freedom of expression and thought in those contexts

01:18:02

They're already being suppressed clubs getting kicked off campus If you you know, if you say we only want to have

01:18:08

Christians in our club Nope got to be able to have homosexual Muslims in your club, you know this type of absolute insanity and you know, we can look at all sorts of other things in the sense of you know degradation of view of the inspiration of Scripture all things things like that, but Fundamentally in the in the church when you have people who are are hardcore

01:18:33

Secularists coming into the church. We have to be challenging That secular mindset and I I just don't see that a lot of churches are really doing that and Preparing people along those lines.

01:18:46

So that's probably what I would say along that line there Thank you very much for your call today

01:18:52

Bryson. Hope you found that to be useful. Let's move on to Brendan Good evening.

01:19:00

Dr. White. How are you doing? All right Look I just started looking at 1689 federalism and I was wondering if you could give us your thoughts on that and maybe like a really concise

01:19:13

Overview of it. Nope, you could can't I obviously recognize that there has been a huge rise in Popularity in whatever in the world it means

01:19:29

It's been pretty much unknown to the vast majority of us who have used the 1689 until just recently

01:19:37

Unfortunately, I was introduced to it very poorly some very zealous brothers

01:19:45

Really did the worst possible sell job. They they approached me in the worst possible way and Hopefully they'll as they get older will realize how badly they did that But the way it was presented to me.

01:19:59

I just looked at I go. That's weird Abraham is a new covenant. What what are you talking about?

01:20:06

and so I Don't have time to get into it and don't have an don't have any interest in it right now.

01:20:14

I'm gonna leave it to other people I'm working on a PhD and in textual criticism and that's more than enough with everything else that I'm doing

01:20:24

Maybe someday I'll have an interest in it Obviously some men I greatly respect

01:20:29

Seem to be saying this is this is the appropriate way of understanding. Someone's got to explain to me

01:20:34

To be honest with you that if what 1689 federalism is saying is that Abraham was in the

01:20:40

New Covenant? There's there's one huge stumbling block for me and that is that would be

01:20:49

Absolutely the central argument that the writer of the Hebrews would have used If he didn't use it, then

01:20:56

I go. Yeah, okay I'm a little concerned to be honest with you in what little

01:21:02

I have looked at it I'm a little concerned that it might be an overreaction in light of the

01:21:11

Arguments that were going back and forth between Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians of the day I'm I'm you know,

01:21:19

I I recognize that Baptists can go too far one direction. I Recognize Presbyterians go too far other directions don't have a problem in recognizing those things

01:21:30

But have to be fair and say and it can go the same direction, you know When you it's the old illustration when you're when you're playing tug -of -war

01:21:40

You're not gonna end up being balanced You're always pulling the other direction from your primary source of resistance and so That crosses my mind as well that there have been for example,

01:21:59

I know of people that are into New Covenant theology and The reason they embrace

01:22:04

New Covenant theology and reject Covenant theology as a whole is Because they're afraid that the

01:22:14

Inevitable result of Covenant theology would be paedo -baptism Well, that's a bad reason to be

01:22:22

Interpreting Scripture in that fashion, but there are people that's exactly where they're coming from. So but no

01:22:29

There are others who could give you much better and probably positive Summaries of it, but I'm not one of them.

01:22:37

Okay. Well, thank you for your time. I appreciate it. Thank you. Bye. Bye. All right Let's see here.

01:22:43

Yeah, let's let's let's take it to the bottom of the hour. So let's Talk to Andrew.

01:22:48

Hi Andrew. Hey, how you doing? Doing good. Go ahead.

01:22:54

Okay. Sorry, Dr. White Big fan kind of paint it paint my little scenario in a nutshell here a little picture for you would be

01:23:05

Last three years. I've kind of been wrestling with what I believe I'm newly reformed

01:23:11

Actually was turned on to that by a good friend Matthew McLamorin that I used to work with Shout out to him big fan of the dividing line but to be honest

01:23:21

I was kind of against Calvinism and the Reformed theology for a long time and the kind of the scenario and the part of my life that I'm in right now that I kind of need some direction on and talking about Romans 9 with you know, it's a huge driver for the

01:23:37

Reformed and my question would be this, you know talks about the example of Hating the one brother and you know and loving the other, you know,

01:23:48

Jacob and Esau I have a twin brother and he's my pastor and I consider myself reformed and he is more of a what they have here in North Carolina But we would call

01:24:00

I guess it what you would call a traditional Traditional view and my question will be this like as a newly reformed person what direction can you give me or or to kind of open up to the people that I'm encountering now and in the

01:24:17

Conversation and dialoguing and you know, really kind of how can I approach my brother with this because I'm kind of afraid

01:24:24

That anytime I ever come to him, it's kind of like how I felt about three years ago where it was like No, this is crazy.

01:24:30

This isn't the truth. This is because we have these presupposed ideas and presuppositions that were taught at an early age and Just really, you know, it's kind of well

01:24:40

Yeah, well Okay, have you do you have the

01:24:45

Potter's freedom? I do Did you see the debate on Romans 9 with latent flowers

01:24:53

I Have okay Well you know,

01:24:59

I would assume that those those two resources would at least Provide you with a sufficient foundation for a discussion.

01:25:08

Should it come up? I don't know that You know, you know sometimes it's better for that discussion to come up because the other person has recognized maybe a

01:25:26

Consistency in your life a new a new focus upon holiness or godliness

01:25:34

Seriousness in the study of God's Word You know a graciousness zeal for for God those that those should be the results of of those types of commitments

01:25:49

Sometimes it's easier to explain those things when they come to you and ask you about that then you necessarily pursuing them and trying to convince them of Of your position

01:26:06

You know, unfortunately in our day Calvinists can sometimes have the reputation of being more concerned about Producing more

01:26:18

Calvinists than they are about actually living out the life or things along those lines.

01:26:23

And so That You know check your heart as to what your reasons for wanting to discuss it with your brother is and You know if it comes up in the natural

01:26:38

Interaction and discussion you would think it would come up in the natural interaction and discussion between Christians But I Don't know there's a necessity that you would have to be pursuing him about it, actually

01:26:56

That would be something I would I would I would consider at that point and so You know recognize they're gonna be you know

01:27:07

Misapprehensions and and and biases and prejudices you had them yourself It takes time

01:27:12

All you can do is is Presented as clearly as as you can and as graciously as you can and then and then go from there

01:27:20

This is not something, you know, I I believe that it takes a work of the Spirit of God to Truly open a person's heart and mind to recognize their utter dependence upon the grace of God Well, and so if that's the case,

01:27:36

I can't force that on somebody else Completely agree and I think really more than anything.

01:27:43

I just wanted to say thank you Because like this last three years had been Pretty intense for me in my life, but thank you for your consistency.

01:27:51

Thank you for your loyalty to the word and to the scripture and To your to your fans and people that you're ministering to on a daily basis.

01:27:59

We are listening we You're helping so many people in lives, and I'm not trying to On you or blow you up, but like truthfully like thank you.

01:28:10

Thank you I appreciate that and it's very very encouraging to both of us and we appreciate it.

01:28:15

Thank you very much All right. Let's see if we can sneak a few looking at these titles.

01:28:22

I'm not sure how we're gonna sneak anything in but Let's talk with Luke real quick.

01:28:27

Hi Luke Hi, dr. White. Yes, sir. I'd like to thank you for your ministry it's been a real blessing to me and also my family and God has used you to deepen my understanding of Definitely the gospel and just the grace of God and also to show us that on Or show me in particular that we can defend these things graciously and with respect and not in a

01:28:54

You know, you know Yes, yes I somewhat recently came upon an interpretation of Romans chapter 2 and also chapter 7 that I wasn't very familiar with I sort of heard about it

01:29:12

A little bit, but I didn't give much thought to it and I think new perspectivists at least interpret

01:29:19

Romans to this way or this section of Romans to But I actually heard this come from a

01:29:25

Reformed Baptist and I'm wondering how you interpret These passages

01:29:30

I'm going to ask you about and if you If you actually think this is an orthodox interpretation or if it creates all sorts of problems with Romans later on It's particularly the point where in Romans 2

01:29:46

Paul was talking about Gentiles that keep the law and they condemn

01:29:53

Jews that have the law but they haven't in there the Gentiles haven't in their consciences and Paul says that to those who to do good and seek trying to In Verse 70 says to those who by persistence and doing good seek glory honor and immortality

01:30:17

He will give eternal life, but for those who are self -seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil

01:30:22

There will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does it so and then then he says

01:30:30

It's not those Who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law

01:30:38

So I'm thinking are you familiar with sort of what

01:30:43

I'm getting at? Well, there's there's a lot of unnecessary confusion about Romans chapter 2 and new perspectivism definitely

01:30:53

Has has contributed to that? But again, it's a simple matter of allowing

01:30:59

Paul to interpret Paul or the book of Romans to interpret the book of Romans There really hasn't there isn't any reason for this

01:31:07

In in chapter 2 Paul turns to the Jews and he states numerous fundamental truths that that they would be in agreement with and then demonstrates how they are inconsistent in their application of those things so If there was such a person as who sought after a person who seeks after Doing good deeds and if there was such a person who fulfilled the law if there was such a person

01:31:33

Then they would receive eternal life, but the the whole point of His own interpretation of his own words in Romans chapter 3 as we've concluded that are all under sin

01:31:44

There are no such people like this. And so when people go to Romans chapter 2 and they go to verse 14

01:31:50

I'll say well, you know the Gentiles do not have a lot do instinctively the things Oh, so that means they're doing that means the opposite of what's in Romans chapter 8 that mankind can do that kind of thing no, it's it's

01:32:02

The problem is with so much modern theology The the the modern interpreter if you don't have a view of scripture that says that it is

01:32:17

Consistent with itself because it has one author Fundamentally, that doesn't mean that you have to force everything into an artificial plastic consistency you can have different authors who have different emphases and all the rest that kind of stuff, but if it fundamentally is the

01:32:34

Word of God as Jesus viewed it as the Word of God then you you don't have the option to introduce these kinds of Face planting inconsistencies and the the

01:32:47

Apostles presenting an argument here And if you interpret the Apostle in such a way that within one chapter, he's

01:32:54

Contradicting himself. Hey, it'll get you published in today's

01:33:00

Seminaries and and graduate schools and things like that, but it's probably going to lead you into into abject heresy and so I Dealt with Romans chapter 2 in the

01:33:12

God who justifies I walk through it and and address a lot of these issues because There there is a temptation the idea amongst a lot of people today as well

01:33:20

You know, you can't you can't force your system axiology on your exegesis. Well, you better be able to allow to Everything that Paul says at least in Romans to to determine your exegesis

01:33:35

And that's what people aren't aren't doing if they can't see that Romans 1 2 & 3 leads up to the the transitionary section of verses pretty much 19 and following and the concluding thoughts are there you're you're never gonna be able to make heads or tails out of anything in Romans It's just it's just not gonna be possible.

01:33:57

So I think I'm familiar with where you're where you're going there, but Romans 2 is liable to that kind of Misinterpretation if you don't see how it's functioning in the entire argument of the book of Romans If you take it out of that then you can make it say anything you want to say

01:34:19

So, okay All right Thank you, just I don't know there's time for one last thing

01:34:26

No, I've got I got one more person. We gotta sneak in and he's been on hold for 15 minutes So I think it'd be fair to sneak him in and we'll go from there

01:34:33

Well, well, well, I guess we'll do more open phones in the future. Rich is going in the other room

01:34:39

Well, we'll do a few more open phones in the future. So maybe we'll be able to Press on with that.

01:34:45

So appreciate your call Luke All right, God bless. All right, let's talk with our last caller of the day

01:34:52

Joe. Hi Joe Hello, James. Yes, sir So I've been particularly bothered

01:35:00

By Justin Martyr's basically explanation of the Mass as being sacrificial and his dialogues with Threifo and Then also on top of that kind of the oblique allusion to it and the didache

01:35:15

Um, so I'm wondering do you have any You know of any early church fathers anyone who taught against that?

01:35:22

Particularly could go so early for me. It really bothered me, especially in the Justin Martyr. So I'm clear teaching it.

01:35:29

Okay. Well, first of all You You say well, he said such so what what are you referring to?

01:35:36

Oh in the dialogue with Threifo He quotes Malachi 111 and says that the Eucharist is the sacrifice

01:35:43

Which was first illusioned by the I think the grain sacra grain offering

01:35:51

Well that might happen chapter one second pull it up for you chapter Yeah, I don't have

01:35:58

It's just dialogue with Threifo chapter 41 okay, the

01:36:04

Oblation of fine flour was a figure of the Eucharist Well, Justin Justin uses a lot of Old Testament allusions

01:36:13

Yeah to to read Justin in light of the dogma of the 13th century is one of the most dangerous and disturbing tendencies of modern

01:36:28

Roman Catholicism I understand and that's what I was thinking at first but I mean my problem is that he specifically quotes

01:36:35

Malachi 111 so it doesn't seem like there's much room to think that he thinks otherwise about the

01:36:41

Eucharist Well, wait a minute Where Justin's primary theological influence is

01:36:47

Greek philosophy. He doesn't even quote Paul No, no, he quotes Malachi 111. Sorry You didn't

01:36:54

I'm just I'm just telling you that What does quoting Malachi have to do with the fact that first of all, he doesn't that is not deeply rooted in Having Pauline revelations, so you're talking about someone who is working with a very minimized

01:37:14

Canon here. So There's there's my difficulty. It's just a martyr thought that the

01:37:21

Eucharist was the sacrifice. Okay, the Eucharist Okay Okay, what that's not a bloody sacrifice is it

01:37:30

No, no, he says that it's the grain offering. So so that's that's a praise soccer

01:37:37

Yeah, that's that's a praise sacrifice that would be actually contradictory to the concept of Roman Catholicism today, wouldn't it

01:37:44

I Don't I don't believe so. I mean, I think what we're trying to hold is that it's not a sacrifice at all

01:37:52

No, it's a sacrifice of praise Why would you think that's martyr thought of the sacrifice of praise?

01:37:58

Well, what was what was the grain offering? I With with sin so so even even if we could get past the fact that that Justin is is

01:38:18

Canonically challenged and hence isn't isn't dealing with Romans or Hebrews or all the stuff that would need to be dealt with to have a full orbed

01:38:29

Apostolic doctrine of the cross. Okay. I mean, let's give him let's give him his due

01:38:35

He was a martyr But he did not have the the fullness of apostolic teaching that we have today in the

01:38:45

New Testament Leaving that aside The the danger is when you hear someone saying oh, but look

01:38:55

He said the Eucharist then you read into all of that Centuries of development later on which was actually a very simple ceremony in the early church

01:39:07

He thought the Eucharist was a sacrifice. Oh, but wait a minute. It had nothing to do with blood sacrifice

01:39:13

It was not soteriological. It was a sacrifice of praise The the problem is

01:39:21

Rome has to has to embrace this development hypothesis

01:39:28

To say well, we're we have the right to develop all this stuff later on But then we can turn around look back into the early church and say ah see this was consistent with what we're saying

01:39:39

No, it wasn't Justin doesn't have the context To establish that type of thing.

01:39:45

It's it's the same thing with the gross abuse of Ignatius and Ignatius's words against the

01:39:52

Gnostics and reading them in the light of Roman Catholic theology,

01:39:57

I did a whole series on YouTube years ago now It's still up there

01:40:03

Where I responded to the the abuse of of Ignatius in in that way.

01:40:09

It's it's a watch Yeah, it's very easy to do that to read Ignatius I can see how he could either be argued one way or the other just the martyr pretty clearly believes that it's

01:40:19

It's Christ to me when I've read him But this is more important to me like a the sacrifice element because if the

01:40:26

Eucharist is not just a sacrifice of praise But the same, you know representation wherever they call it I know

01:40:31

I know of Calvary then I feel like as a Christian I feel particularly obligated to actually join more, you know ancient church in some way

01:40:40

Um, what the most ancient way? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's stop.

01:40:47

Stop. Stop. Sorry. Sorry. Go ahead. Stop The ancient church is defined by the

01:40:55

New Testament writings of the Apostles of Jesus Christ By nothing else

01:41:02

No, no, no, no, no, no, no Joe you're buying a line here I can hear it in what you're saying and I can hear it in your vocabulary.

01:41:11

You're already buying the line the apostolic church The testimony of that church is found in inspired

01:41:21

Scripture not in reading back into early church fathers dogmas

01:41:27

That would not be dogmatized until the 13th century And so if you want to early church fathers,

01:41:33

Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, listen The writer to the

01:41:40

Hebrews said effa pox one time Never repeated

01:41:47

Perfects those for whom it's made Rome says no, that's the end for a person who wants the apostolic truth

01:41:58

That's the end for anyone who wants the apostolic truth now if you want to read Justin who never read the book of Hebrews or at least didn't read

01:42:06

Paul and Try to read into him something That's up to you.

01:42:12

But don't say that you're pursuing the apostolic church To me to me. I feel like if I agree with Justin, I'll be safe Is it that's kind of my what why wait,

01:42:21

I don't know why Scared nowadays because everyone teaches different Joe Joe Joe argument

01:42:27

There's too many ideas out there Joe. There was no difference. There was no difference in the second century Why why

01:42:32

Justin Martyr said many true things, but he was way off on a number of other things

01:42:37

He doesn't even have the whole New Testament. Why in the world would he make you feel safe? Because no one disagrees with him on this fact and I don't you make a distinction between Sacrifice of praise

01:42:48

Joe Joe by for the math. I want to look into that bit more That's kind of like oh Joe. We want to Joe you say no one you say no one disagrees with him

01:42:58

What do you expect? Joe do you think the early church was sitting around on social media having dialogues about this stuff?

01:43:07

Do we have any this is this is knowing that people disagreed about this? I don't see any of that you're assuming a

01:43:14

Unitary view on something that you have not established But there's no evidence for if we don't have evidence for it

01:43:21

Then I'm not going to go around believing people wouldn't disagree with like big bishops start disagreeing with just the martyr No, it's not a sacrifice.

01:43:26

There's no writings, then I can't believe it at this argument for silence, you know Joe Joe Joe, why?

01:43:34

Do you want to abandon a finished sacrifice for one that does not save you?

01:43:40

Because that's what you're doing. Let's just be let's just be straight up. You're trying to find a way to excuse

01:43:48

Abandoning a finished sacrifice so you can embrace One that will never perfect you

01:43:54

That's what you do. What do you mean never perfect you? If you embrace the

01:44:00

Roman Catholic doctrine of the mass You do realize that when you attend mass

01:44:07

You are not perfected by it. Well, you mean perfected you mean Imputed justification alone, and I'm not entirely sure if I'm convinced of that.

01:44:17

I mean if you're if you're imputed Lee justified Imputedly justified. I have no idea what that means

01:44:24

Alone, you know just like faith alone. You're forensically justified and yeah, it can never be unjustified

01:44:29

So it's perfect in that sense But if you're infused like they are arguing Hebrews chapter

01:44:37

Hebrews chapter 10 by one sacrifice. I mean the whole thing is that both

01:44:42

Joe you're not listening You already want you you want something to do with saving yourself.

01:44:47

You don't want a finished work What's going on? What's really going on? What's what's the real draw here?

01:44:54

I Grew up my entire life. I'm not being a Calvinist right just being I didn't even mention

01:45:00

Calvin I know I don't explain this. I don't explain this normal non -denominational Protestant, right a few years ago

01:45:07

I've been starting to actually dig into theology and I realized I grew up reading the scriptures over and over again

01:45:12

Not really can all these new ideas were out there. And now I go to talk to Calvinist understand No, Joe, it's not about your you can't even have faith and whatever

01:45:19

It's not a decision that you do. There's all God doing it for you I'm like how did I miss this my whole life and now

01:45:24

I'm just like really confused on what to believe and so I'm going To the early Church Fathers and now I'm finding that the early Church Fathers don't disagree with Rome They just don't say things that Rome always says and so I feel particularly obligated to start taking it seriously

01:45:35

That's why I'm calling that's why I'm struggling so much in the last year You just said that you've decided to go to the early

01:45:44

Church Fathers Why not go to the earliest

01:45:50

Church Fathers called the writers of the New Testament first? No, no, you have not you just said you just said you didn't even know about these ideas

01:45:59

So you were you were being given? No, I read first John was my favorite book growing up.

01:46:04

I love that book, right? Then I come to the Calvinist saying no God doesn't love everybody I was like, holy cow This this really hurts me because I'm like,

01:46:11

I love the first first John if they got love and I'll be man Listen reading this wrong then appointed me to Romans. I'm like, oh my gosh how to miss all this and so my whole point is that I'm just really confused now because I Grew up reading the

01:46:21

Bible and then all of a sudden I was like, no, you're reading it wrong I'm like, I can't trust my own reading abilities Well, they weren't telling you you cannot quote -unquote trust your own reading abilities what they were telling you is that scripture and Tradition are two different things

01:46:38

We all have our traditions But you need to be able to identify what those traditions are and trying to find some new tradition by cobbling together

01:46:46

Something from patristic sources That you're probably not reading in their original language in the first place

01:46:51

And we only have a certain selection from there were many things are being said and read at that time

01:46:57

They were completely in contradiction to one another even asking for someone to quote -unquote disagree with Justin Shows that you have a completely unreasonable view of what was going on under the persecution of Rome at that particular point in time

01:47:12

You didn't that wasn't something that there wasn't some social media where someone's gonna go. Hey, just see what

01:47:17

Justin just posted on Facebook I'm gonna write a response to that tonight. That wasn't happening. Okay, and that and that couldn't happen.

01:47:24

And so I I I guess I hear what you're saying. But at the same time,

01:47:30

I hope you understand that what what I'm hearing you saying is you don't seem to have a strong commitment

01:47:39

To the foundational issues at this point in time and the foundational issue is the perfection of the work of Christ.

01:47:48

I mean, it sounds to me like you're willing to say I'm willing to get on that treadmill and I'm willing to go to a a man who calls himself an alter

01:47:58

Christus another Christ and he will Partially forgive me of my sins

01:48:05

But I'm gonna have to do X Y & Z and I'm gonna have to undergo temple punishment of sin I'm I even undergo eternal punishment if I commit mortal sins and and and Adopt all this stuff that the early church did not have any concept of there weren't any priests in the

01:48:21

Roman Catholic concept of a priest and just a martyrs day understand that it has changed much and Wait, I just wish

01:48:29

I could get some help because I feel terrified the last six months I have been considering this, you know going

01:48:35

Catholic or going to the Catholic Church or something Because but the whole thing has been so painful because everyone's freaked out at me every time suggested

01:48:41

But meanwhile, I'm terrified that all I want to do is be a Christian and whenever I read early Christian Not in apostolic times, you know post -apostolic just early

01:48:48

They're always disagreeing with me and disagreeing with my Protestant friends, and I'm freaking out about this all

01:48:54

I want to do is follow Jesus and Then all of a sudden I have to deal with all these arguments and I don't it's just so confusing to me, you know

01:49:01

So I just so what you're saying is you're not in a church where there is solid biblical teaching

01:49:10

No, no, it's good biblical teaching. Just I mean, it's not Calvinistic. I mean, that's what you're one wanting But um, I mean,

01:49:16

I mean I go to a life fellowship in Charlotte Bobby Conway. I don't know anything about it

01:49:22

Okay, don't worry about it then I'm not saying you have to go to a Calvinist Church what

01:49:27

I am saying is that when it comes to the fundamental issue of a Person standing before God and what the intention of the

01:49:36

Father Son and Spirit were in the cross That can't be stuff. That is

01:49:42

That is up in the air And you can now look you can look through church history

01:49:48

And if you want to be confused on any point of Christian theology, I can point you to somebody in church history to confuse you

01:49:55

I mean that that's that's just that's just reality I mean if you just want to look at the number of different theories of atonement that you can find down through the history of the church there's there's there's a dozen of them and each one has a an element of truth what you're looking for is

01:50:16

Consistency and the ability to identify tradition when it gets in the way of a

01:50:22

Consistent reading of the whole of Scripture. That's why when you say I want to go with Justin Justin didn't even have the whole

01:50:28

New Testament. He's not the person you want to go with But to me I feel like like if they're gonna be the right

01:50:35

Christians people the right theology would be the one You'd find early on why that's my hunch what what would your hunch let me let me challenge your hunch

01:50:42

Well, I look at first look at the book you like look at the book you like Joe Actually, let me let me let me say this in a better way not that they would have everything but that they

01:50:53

That we wouldn't be contradicting them. Like if they say X we would say X maybe Y also But like Joe think about it

01:51:00

Joe think about that. You said you love first John. What's what's what's the constant? theme of first John Antichrists have gone out from us.

01:51:08

They went out from us. So it might be demonstrated. They're not truly of us The church was divided by Antichrists at that point in time.

01:51:15

Was it not? So yeah, I mean they feel the heresies. I mean that makes sense. But I mean this orthodoxy surviving

01:51:21

I'm sure but isn't there but wouldn't there be a greater understanding of the truth? Once the entirety of the apostolic witness was collected together in something called the

01:51:31

New Testament. I Mean, yeah, that would make sense, but I would have a hard time believing that happens hundreds of years after Well, God didn't just leave his people alone.

01:51:40

But the fact of the matter is there have been times When God's truth has been more clearly known than other times.

01:51:48

Look at what happened in the Old Testament history there's a time they under Josiah they find a

01:51:53

Manuscript of the Torah and they go. Oh my goodness because there there had been such apostasy in periods of time before that now

01:52:02

God had already given his word, but There were periods of time when God for his own purposes allows

01:52:09

Certain certain things to happen and so don't don't fall into this idea that That somehow the

01:52:16

New Testament isn't enough and we've got to have you know, Justin Martyrs views or something like that I teach church history

01:52:25

Really quick like I'm right now kind of confused because there's a lot of different ideas out there and I don't know

01:52:31

I don't Want to like endanger my soul choosing the wrong one, right? And so my my issue is that if okay, if I can't figure it out for myself

01:52:39

I might as well look at the I mean, I just firmly believe there've been Christians in all time period So I just figured the earlier

01:52:44

I get when there's less things to choose from you know, it's a good way to just cut out the bad ones if they contradict someone who said something early on and Then I came across baptismal regeneration and it's freaked out.

01:52:55

I'm like, oh my gosh, everyone agrees believes baptismal regeneration early on Why are we doubting this and then that that's the sort of issue?

01:53:02

I find something that people agree on early on that Rome happens to agree with them and I'm just like Actually, actually, that's that that's just completely bogus

01:53:11

The the number of views on baptism in the early church are many as well Even if even from people like Tertullian, they have multiple different views there

01:53:20

There is big arguments about whether you wait until you're just about to die The I mean there is a huge Spectrum believe that story just regeneration, right?

01:53:29

I mean if you didn't that'd be amazing. I mean, look what? There are the people who didn't believe baptismal regeneration or argued against it because that would be well, well again

01:53:38

What what where do you want to start with? Do you want to start with what the Apostles taught or with what people who didn't even have everything the

01:53:44

Apostles thought they should teach? I mean, I mean the whole thing is that people argue it both ways in the in the

01:53:49

Bible and and so But see but see Joe you're never gonna find you're never gonna get a foundation

01:53:57

When you have that conclusion, well, hey Everybody argues a different way When they first presented to me their reading of John 3 it really convinced me and I was like, wow

01:54:07

I feel like I've been missing this in the whole my whole life and Wow Except then when I read in John 6 it contradicts everything.

01:54:13

I just said I mean I mean, I mean, that's fine.

01:54:18

We can argue Why do you keep bringing up Calvinism? I didn't bring up Calvinism. You just did

01:54:24

I'm guessing you're talking about all the father gives me I will not That's just Jesus. Don't don't don't blame

01:54:29

Calvin for that. That's just Jesus. No, I'm saying but that's that you're using you're refuting Regeneration by no

01:54:35

What I'm saying is you can't read John 3 and John 6 together and come up with the Roman Catholic understanding

01:54:41

No, but no, but John 6 isn't speaking about baptismal regeneration But it is talking about how you're saved and if baptismal regeneration is the mechanism by which you're saved then

01:54:50

John 6 doesn't make any sense I'm simply saying the Bible is sufficient if you interpret it in its own context and not

01:54:58

Cut it up into little bits and pieces That's where Joe Joe Joe if you want, but I'm confused

01:55:04

Joe Joe I hear both sides of the argument and I don't feel particularly convinced one way or the other about Calvinism And so I'm kind of as a layman.

01:55:12

I'm kind of Joe right now to that point Joe If you want a firm foundation, you are not looking for it in the right place

01:55:20

The firm foundation is going to be found in the consistent Interpretation of Scripture.

01:55:26

There is a consistent interpretation of Scripture You're not going to find that by going outside of Scripture to try to find other sources to give that to you

01:55:36

You can you can not be a Romanist without being a Calvinist. Is there a way to do that? Again I'm not sure why you keep keep bringing up Calvinism If you want to refute

01:55:50

Rome become a Calvinist. Well, there isn't there's there's no there isn't any question that the only

01:55:56

Consistent response to Rome is reformed theology. Yeah, that's that that's that's quite true

01:56:02

I mean it really bothers me now because I've I grew up not being reformed It's now I kind of make this choice between you know,

01:56:09

Rome which tends to get you know Be a little more in line, you know in terms of like how God works, you know

01:56:15

You don't have this view of sovereignty that I'm not used to, you know. No, they have

01:56:21

Mary Saving the world. Yeah, right Yeah, I mean if you see the position

01:56:27

I'm stuck in, I mean it No, I don't because if you don't like if you don't like a sovereign God I'm not sure what what you're reading because have you read have you read

01:56:36

Psalm 135 6? I think that he causes evil and I don't like that and I don't think he loves everyone. I think God loves everyone

01:56:42

Jesus died for everyone. Well, so what basically what I'm asking, it sounds like what you're saying is you don't like How God is presented in the

01:56:51

Bible, so you're looking for something else. No, no, I'm telling you the Bible I read growing up. I had I got this view from the

01:56:56

Bible I mean, I read this growing up and that's what I believe. I mean, I just Did you read

01:57:02

Psalm 135 6? Did you did you? We read those and we never thought they were a big deal because we thought it was poetic

01:57:09

Exactly, in other words you had your own human traditions Joe that were filtering things out what

01:57:16

I'm saying for you Yeah, which is which is why

01:57:22

Jesus quotes from the Psalter to teach all the time he didn't just dismiss it as poetry, did he? Not just not not just the prophecies

01:57:34

Oh Just because it's just because it's poetry I mean poetry is quoted in the book of Hebrews to demonstrate the

01:57:41

Incarnation. Does that mean the Incarnation is just something poetic? No, like I just never like the standard one would be like Psalms 11 and but I read

01:57:48

Psalms 11 It was like Psalm all about us hiding Taking shelter in God from the evil world.

01:57:54

And so it makes sense that the language got extreme or the the language You mean about God hating sinners? Yeah Yeah, I was

01:58:02

I was talking about word where God says You know, like that's the kind of language I'm used to there.

01:58:08

I just well Look if you if you want to know the truth

01:58:14

The truth is then clearly presented to you if you will submit to Scripture It sounds to me like there are other reasons other things in the way of you actually willing to submit

01:58:25

Yeah, I am bound by Scripture. I read first John and I got my theology from that That's where I mean.

01:58:31

No, you don't you don't get your theology from one book. You get it from all I don't I mean, I'm just saying that's example of the one day I love the most right and I would read a lot of other books obviously and I firmly grew up with these ideas

01:58:41

Thinking that Jesus Christ died for all men and we have to choose and he'll forgive us if we if we choose to follow him

01:58:46

And that's the idea I had growing up and now there's always different ideas And when I start coming across Rome people are like, oh, you have to be a

01:58:53

Calvinist and what they're arguing in Rome Like why I don't want to be a Calvinist Well, Joe, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna worry about the

01:58:58

Calvinism part I am simply going to tell you that the scriptures are going to be sufficient if you are willing to submit yourself to them as A whole and test your traditions.

01:59:08

That's that's gonna be what you can do. Well, okay, Joe. All right. Thanks. Thanks for your call All right.

01:59:14

We went a little bit longer than we thought we were going to there, but that's okay I could tell by the way, the question was asked that there was something a whole lot more there.

01:59:23

So There you go, all right, well we'll We'll have to do this more often in the future

01:59:31

I suppose I Like having a little more control personally, but That's that's the way it goes.

01:59:41

Thanks for listening to the dividing line today. We will see you five o 'clock

01:59:46

Eastern Standard time so three o 'clock our time on Thursday.