January 17, 2024 Show with Kevin Hay on “The Sheep & Their Shepherds: The Relationship Between Pastors & Church Members”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father, James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer,

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27, verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 17th day of January 2024.

I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest on the program today. His name is Kevin Hay. He's pastor of Redeemer Bible Church in Gilbert, Arizona.

And today, we're gonna be addressing the theme, The Sheep and Their Shepherds, The Relationship Between Pastors and Church Members, an exposition of Hebrews 13, verses seven through 21.

We'll also be announcing the 2024 Open Air Theology Conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee on the theme,

Why Calvinism? Because our guest today, Pastor Kevin Hay, is on the speaking roster at that event.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Kevin Hay.

Thank you, Chris. It is a joy and an honor to be on the show. Well, it's a joy and an honor to have you on the show.

And tell our listeners about Redeemer Bible Church in Gilbert, Arizona. Yeah, Redeemer Bible Church is a church that I have been on staff at since June of 2023.

And so it's, yeah, I've been a privilege to be a part of the pastoral staff here. Our lead pastor is John Benzinger.

We're a church of about 2 ,000 people who come through on the weekends. We have eight services on the weekends.

And sorry, we have five services on the weekend. We had eight on the Christmas Eve time. But we have five normally, two on Saturday, three on Sunday.

Great pastoral staff, great group of believers. And my family and I have both just been altogether blessed to be a part of the church.

Praise God. What would be a theological description of the church? Yeah, I would say we're a

Reformed church in terms of our soteriology. We would be a cessationist.

We would hold to a premillennial dispensational view of eschatology, very much in line with Grace Community, John MacArthur.

In fact, a lot of our guys on staff are graduates of TMS. And one interesting note that may surprise many of our listeners, but at one time was not the nephew of Benny Hinn, a member of the pastoral staff there,

Kosti Hinn? Yeah, that's right. Kosti's a good friend of mine and had a chance to get to know him during our time together at TMS, in fact, in the

Doctor of Ministry program. And Kosti was a student pastor here. And then just a couple of years ago, we had the privilege of helping to plant

Kosti. And he's now the pastor of Shepherd's House Bible Church, just in the next town over in Chandler, Arizona.

And the Lord's just doing a great work in and through the ministry of Kosti and all of the faithful brothers and sisters there as well.

And we should reassure our listeners that he is not following in his uncle's footsteps when it comes to almost anything that you can think of.

Quite the contrary. Yeah, he is a cessationist, he is theologically reformed. And in fact, if you want to hear his testimony,

I have the archived recording of my interview with Kosti. I believe I've interviewed him a couple of times.

But you go to ironsherpensirenradio .com and you type in C -O -S -T -I, that's his first name, in the search engine and the interviews that I've had with him will come up.

And for those of you who want to find out more about Redeemer Bible Church in Gilbert, Arizona, go to RedeemerAZ, for Arizona, .org,

RedeemerAZ .org. Well, we have a custom here, Pastor Kevin, on Iron Sherpens Iron Radio, whenever we have a first time guest, that guest gives a summary of their salvation testimony that would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which those guests were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them. And I'd love to hear your story.

Yeah, absolutely, I appreciate the opportunity to do that. I was not raised in a Christian home.

My parents, to this day, are still not believers, continuing to share the gospel with them and point them to Christ.

But yeah, praying for their salvation and for those listeners, I would encourage them to, and appreciate the prayers for my family as well.

But yeah, my grandmother was the Christian in my family. And so she would invite me as a young child to come and attend church with her.

And so I would go, and I believe at that time that the seeds of the gospel were planted into my mind.

And years later, in my early 20s, is when the Lord actually would use those seeds of the gospel to draw me to Christ and to reveal to me my sinfulness.

And so there was a head knowledge of those things. I remember saying prayers in my teenage years after living like the devil during the day, and thinking that if I just prayed a prayer at night, that would be like my spiritual security blanket and do something for me.

But the Lord was merciful and kind, and he saw fit, by his grace, to save me at the age of 20 years old.

And it was actually in my home, I was living by myself and just really reflecting upon my life and the realization that it was not pleasing in God's sight just weighed heavily upon me.

And being reminded of the gospel that I had heard as a young child just came into the forefront of my mind and I was converted.

And so the idea that God is sovereign was not difficult for me, because he made it very clear that he was coming and seeking me out.

And I'm so thankful that he did. And by the way, folks, I owe my guest an apology.

He has been on the program before, it's not his first time. And in fact, the first time that he was on the program was on my birthday last year, actually the day before my birthday,

February 13th, 2023. And you could look up that interview if you'd like after this live interview is over.

Just type in Kevin Hay, H -A -Y, into the search engine and you'll find our interview on the necessity of expository preaching.

And my apologies, but I don't believe that you were the pastor of Redeemer Bible Church in Gilbert, Arizona at the time, were you?

No, I wasn't. I was actually in a season of transition at that time and we were just praying about where the

Lord would direct us and he was just so kind to lead us to Redeemer and to get to be a part of the pastoral staff here.

And I will also give you a little bit of credit, Chris, you were under the weather that day. And so you are pressing on.

And so I don't fault you one bit for not remembering. Well, I appreciate your graciousness.

Well, we are talking about a very important subject today, the sheep and their shepherds, the relationship between pastors and church members, which is an exposition of Hebrew 13, seven through 21.

And was this either your doctoral dissertation or some paper that you wrote as a master's seminary student?

Yeah, that's right. Actually, just two nights ago, I submitted my first draft of this dissertation that we're talking about today on the sheep and their shepherds to the faculty at TMS for my doctoral ministry degree in expository preaching.

And so this is one that I've, it's been a labor of love for me, but it's also just been one that's near and dear to my heart and has been one of theological study, but also a lot of just practical experience over the past several years.

And so, yeah, recently submitted that and excited to see what the Lord's gonna do with it.

Well, praise God. I'm excited to hear about that. So please provide updates.

But this is a very important issue, obviously, because the health of Christ's sheep largely often depends upon the relationship of the sheep with their under shepherds, their pastors.

Now, thanks be to God, since all men, including pastors, are flawed human beings, we are all sinners saved by grace.

And until we are in glory, we will all battle with sin. So thank

God that the mental and spiritual well -being of the sheep is not 100 % dependent upon the relationship they have with their pastors, but it is definitely an added bonus, and that's putting it mildly.

It's a very important thing to the growth and maturity of sheep when they have not only very qualified under shepherds, also known as pastors, but when these men truly have been given by God the heart of a shepherd and are nurturing the flock, and the relationship that they have is more than a person in a pew being a spectator who once a week sees and hears the pastor deliver a sermon, and that's about the extent of the relationship that they have.

So tell us about some of the primary things that you believe are important in this equation here.

Yeah, I think it'd be helpful to provide a little bit of context for the listeners just to help them understand kind of where I have been coming from and why this topic has been so important to me, aside from just, you know, the importance that Scripture places upon it, which obviously is primary.

So for me, I was a co -pastor in a church that I helped to plant, essentially from the year 2009, we merged with another church in 2012, and then for six years,

I was a part of a co -pastor model with another brother, and that was a time and a season where the

Lord did a lot of amazing things, but being in a co -pastor model had a lot of challenges that came with it.

We did have elders, and the two of us were part of that elder team, and I will say we were what we would consider elder -ruled when you think about the different types of church polities, and then from there,

I had the opportunity to be a lead pastor at two different churches, one in Indiana and then one in West Virginia, and then now, of course,

I am on a pastoral staff, but along the way, I've been a part of different models for church government, and I mentioned the one, you know, being elder -ruled, another one that I was a part of was really congregational, but it was managed or led by a board of managers, so it was kind of this quasi -elder, but it was made up of men and women, and it was a very strange kind of dynamic, and then my previous church was an elder -led church, but it was congregationally governed, and so I've had the opportunity, or the experience,

I might say, to be able to be a part of each of those, to see what things worked, what things didn't work, and then, of course, all the while, seeing what

Scripture actually says about church leadership and the health of the church when it comes to things like elders and deacons and so forth, and so that gave me a real heart for that, and originally, my dissertation was going to be focused on a path to plurality, so I was really focused on, as a pastor at that time, a lone pastor without co -laborers as elders,

I really was focused on trying to help churches like mine go from being a solo pastor model to doing what the

Bible says, which is to establish a plurality of elders. We see Paul calling

Timothy to do that in Scripture. Titus 1 .5, for example, he tells

Titus that he left him in Crete, and one of the specific purposes he left him there was to appoint elders plural in every city, and we can go on and on.

I mean, that's the pattern of Scripture is the plurality of elders, and so that was my heart's desire, but then as my context changed,

I began to focus more on just the health of the local church and how it is so dependent upon actually functioning according to the way

God has designed the church, and so I think that's really the question then we have to ask ourselves.

Is there an ideal way that the church should function? Has Jesus promised 2 ,000 years ago thereabout that He would build

His church, but does that mean He's the builder and not the architect too? You know, what does that mean?

And if so, does Scripture have something to say to us about how the church should be structured?

And my argument, of course, is it absolutely does, and then when you juxtapose that with the church today, we see that churches are closing across the country at really an alarming rate.

You have people in their 20s and their 30s who are starting to what they call deconstruct their faith, you know, this faith that they were raised to believe in.

They're just walking away from it, and studies show that in the United States alone, the number of professing

Christians could shrink down to around 35 % just by the year 2070 in America.

So, you know, you start looking at some of those statistics, and of course, God is sovereign over all of that, but He's also sovereign over the means, and so this became a very, very important topic for me because I think at the heart of it all is demonstrating that the hope of the church's success is found in the church's health, and God is the designer of the church, and so it really starts with having qualified elders, biblically qualified elders who are called by God, and when we look at places like 1

Timothy 3 and Titus 1, it provides for us, you know, for any man who is aspiring to the role of elder or overseer, shepherd, pastor in the church, scripture provides these qualifications, and as you said earlier very well,

Chris, we're not talking about perfection here. In fact, in Hebrews chapter 13, verses 7 through 21, in verse 7, the author of Hebrews will instruct the church to remember those who have faithfully taught them the word of God in the past, to have esteem and honor for those people, and then directly after that, to kind of remind them that, you know, they have shortcomings, they have failures, they have sins.

He says in verse 8, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and so he's the only perfect shepherd.

He is the matchless one, and he is the great shepherd of the sheep who the under -shepherds are stewarding and serving those entrusted to their care under his great shepherd leadership, and so I would say it really starts there, and so for those listening, you know, that's the point we wanna press into first and foremost is just making sure that churches are being led by qualified, called, spirit -filled men who fit the qualifications found in Scripture, and from there, that's whenever you can begin to establish a right relationship between those men who are leading and those who are entrusted to their care.

Amen, and one thing that, pastors themselves in the flock have got to realize, this has been brought up before, but when a man proves himself to be disqualified or unqualified from the office, when the issue is serious enough, as we've already established, every pastor sins, so not every sin disqualifies a pastor, but if he's been involved in sexual sin, if he has been involved in provable financial misappropriation, theft, and so forth, stealing the church's money, and we could go on and on with things that would no longer make him above reproach.

People have to remember, God doesn't need that man or those men in the pastoral office.

Of course, he has ordained to use pastors in order to proclaim the gospel, to provide church discipline, to baptize and to administer the ordinances of the church, the

Lord's Supper, and they are crucial in God's plan as far as being means, but the individuals themselves, it's not like God needs them, and when we have people who may be talented in many ways, they may be great orators, they may be prolific writers, and on and on and on, they may even been used by God to bring thousands to salvation.

Salvation, that still does not put them in a place where no matter what they've done, they are needed in that position of the pastoral office.

They can't be replaced in the minds of many, and therefore, you have people who fall into scandalous sin who are being reinstituted as pastors and back in the pulpit in amazingly short periods of time very often.

This can never be a part of the practice of a true church, can it?

That's right. Yeah, no, you're exactly right, and I think that a lot of that has to do with, do we actually believe that Scripture is sufficient for all things pertaining to life and godliness, not the least of which how we function as a local church?

And unfortunately, even as you think back to what we just talked about, about the qualification for elders, or even before that, whether your church has elders, many churches, instead of designing or establishing their church upon the biblical model for church, they instead will go to some sort of business model.

And so they start off on the wrong foot right from the very beginning.

And then of course, if you're off just a few degrees, over time, we know what that looks like. You're off a wide span.

And so it's imperative that we start there and that we stay there in the word of God, reminding ourselves that Scripture is sufficient for all of it.

Who is the author of Scripture? It is God himself, and he is omniscient, he is wise, he knows what he's doing.

And so we have to simply trust him. And so then as you get to these qualifications, then if a church is going to truly trust in God's word and believe in the sufficiency of Scripture, and believe that God is the authority and the one who gets to dictate these things,

I mean, he is very actively involved in all of this. So we're not deists who believe that God just created and then he kind of sits back and watches it all play out.

No, he is intricately involved and sovereign over all of these details. And so when it comes to a pastor who has fallen, there does come a question as to, as you just talked about, talking about some of the criteria there, is he above reproach?

That's the question. And it takes, I think, a group of godly men who know the situation, who know the man, who have examined him in light of that information to then determine, is this man no longer fit?

And we're not talking about restoration to the body of Christ. I think sometimes that gets confused.

We're talking about the difference between restoration and disqualification.

And so just because a man may be disqualified for the office of elder or pastor, that does not mean he can't be restored to church membership.

The contrary is actually the case. But the calling of elder or pastor is supposed to be of such a high standard that it makes a difference in terms of what the characteristic pattern of your life looks like.

And as you just spoke to, we live in a world where we've seen multiple cases where either that process has not been handled the way it should have been handled, perhaps something has been swept under the rug, which automatically causes the congregation then to lose respect and esteem and honor for those who they are supposed to be called to respect and submit to.

And so, again, God has purposes for all of these things that are found in his word. And even if we don't understand the full implications for why it's there, if we act contrary to them, we will soon find out that it is to our detriment.

Well, we are going to our first commercial break. If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own, please send your questions to chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

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Give us your first name at least. Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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It may be something involving your own pastors, your own congregation, your own denomination, or you may even be the pastor yourself.

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We'll be right back with Pastor Kevin Hay, so please don't go away. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linnbrook Baptist Church, a

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and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm now back with our guest, Kevin Hay.

And as we said earlier in the program, Kevin is the pastor of Redeemer Bible Church in Gilbert, Arizona.

We were discussing the sheep and their shepherds, the relationship between pastors and church members. And if you have a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Well, I'd like, before I take any listener questions,

I'd like you to provide us with, according to your experience, what you think most

Christians, whether they be pastors or members of the church, non -office bearers, what is typically the most frequently committed errors when it comes to understanding the right relationship between pastor and member?

Oh, that's a really great question. So you're asking to be specific when it comes to a member of a congregation, what do you think the greatest error is in terms of their understanding?

That's exactly right. Yeah, I think it's wide ranging. I think more than anything, it ends up coming from some sort of biblical illiteracy, which ultimately then ends up falling back on those who are called to actually teach them the truth of God's word.

But I think it's not recognizing the fact that, as we see in Hebrews 13, 17, that, well,

I'll just read the verse. It says, obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.

Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

And so I think in the minds of some, it's that they pay their money, they give their offering to the church, and that goes in the pockets of the pastors.

It's their job to preach and serve. And that's the relationship.

But in reality, James 3 says, be careful if you're gonna call yourself a teacher because you're gonna be held to a higher standard.

And that's exactly what the 17th verse of Hebrews 13 is referring to, that those whom

God calls to shepherd his sheep, they are gonna be one day held accountable by the great shepherd of the sheep.

And so that's a weighty, weighty task whenever a pastor recognizes rightly that we're all living quorum

Deo, which is to say before the face of God, but to always live in the forefront of our minds with the reality that we are going to stand before God and give a greater level of accountability before the

Lord in whatever way that looks like, because we've been entrusted with a noble task.

We've been entrusted with his precious word. We've been called to teach it and explain it.

We've been called to live in an unhypocritical way that helps to demonstrate and illustrate to the people what this should look like.

So there's a lot that goes into that. And I think for the average church member, they probably don't recognize that high accountability factor.

But again, as I said, it ends up falling back on those who are actually called to be teaching them, because for anything that the member is not recognizing or failing to recognize from scripture, it's perhaps most because they're not getting the whole counsel of God taught to them from their pastors.

Okay, let's see. We have a listener for you with a question.

And I was just looking at that question. Here it is. Oh, in fact, this is no ordinary listener.

This is a listener who is also, I believe, on the speaking roster at the upcoming

Open Air Theology Conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee. Michael Schultz, Jr.,

senior pastor at Antioch Baptist Church, associate professor of church history at Forge Theological Seminary.

And he has a question. As a pastor,

I am deeply interested in his perspective. Do you take James chapter three, verse one, to mean that God will judge pastors more strictly, harshly than laypersons?

And if so, does this mean that God sees a distinction between clergymen and laymen?

Many today are keen to diminish such a distinction. I am curious about your thoughts.

Yes, in fact, Baptists, historically, were cautious about how much of a gap would be placed between the understanding of a so -called clergyman and a layman.

And some Baptists despise those terms. But it doesn't mean that they didn't hold the office of elder or pastor in a specific level of authority and role.

But if you could answer the question for Pastor Michael. Yeah, that's a great question.

And shout out to my brother, Michael. He's a good brother and a good friend.

And I actually get to partner with him as one of the professors at Forge Theological Seminary.

So I'm privileged to be a part of that. I think that the caution in terms of putting one above the other, if you wanna use that language, is as if to say that somehow pastors are more important or that their gifts are somehow more important than the average member of the church, to use that language.

So I would share that same caution in that we're all image bearers of God.

Every one of the gifts in God's church is vitally important to the building up of the body as we see in Ephesians four.

So in terms of importance, absolutely, we're all on the same footing there and we need to value all of the gifts kind of in an equal way, because they're all vitally important.

However, when you think about James chapter three and then when you think about Hebrews 13, 17,

I think it's unavoidable that when it comes to accountability, that it's kind of like the saying with greater privilege comes greater responsibility.

And I would say the same thing about husbands and wives, fathers and mothers.

Like, there's an order that God has given structure to the family and to the church.

And again, when it comes to husbands and wives, that's not saying that they are somehow unequal in their value or importance.

However, when the Lord stepped into the garden in Genesis, the first person he spoke to was

Adam, right? Because there is a level of accountability and responsibility that fell on him as the leader of his family.

And the same can be said about the church. And so is there some mystery in terms of what that accountability looks like?

Yes, but I would also say that that is the thing that should sober up every pastor and really every member.

I mean, scripture calls all of us to work out our own salvation, not with flippancy, but rather with fear and trembling.

And I don't think we think seriously enough about that as just believers in general.

So I hope that's helpful in the way I tried to break that down. But yes, I do think scripture does point to a greater level of accountability being held for pastors and leaders.

By the way, Michael, I would love to interview you as well on the program, especially since you are one of the speakers on the roster at the

Open Air Theology Conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee next month. So please shoot me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

with all of your contact information so that we can arrange that interview. If you could now, let's take a temporary break from our topic to have you give more details to our listeners about the

Open Air Theology Conference. Yeah, this is something I'm really excited about.

For any of your listeners who may be familiar with last year's conference, we just had a great time last year in Tullahoma talking about the topic of from shadows to substance.

And a lot of the guys who were there then are also gonna be here for this upcoming conference.

It's gonna be held in Tullahoma, once again, Tennessee on February the 22nd through February the 24th.

Really great lineup of speakers. I'm humbled to be a part of all of the guys who are gonna be there.

And at the end of it, there's actually gonna be a debate that our brother and friend

James White is going to be having on the topic of the atonement, I believe.

And so, yeah, for anybody who's gonna be in the Tennessee area, especially near Tullahoma, there at the end of February, I would strongly encourage you and recommend you to come out, be a part of that conference.

It's really gonna be a great time. On the topic of why Calvinism. Right, and you've also corrected my pronunciation of Tullahoma, I've been calling it

Tullahoma for a couple of years now. And nobody's ever corrected me. Well, don't take my word for it,

Chris. I'm sorry? I said, don't take my word for it. Oh, okay. Well, then

I'll, before I - Jeffrey Rice is your guy. Yeah, before I make Tullahoma my permanent pronunciation,

I'll check with Jeffrey. If anybody wants more details on the Open Air Theology Conference, which is happening next month, go to openairtheology .com,

openairtheology .com. And does the conference actually take place outside, or is that just a name they've adopted because of the history of the conferences may be addressing that issue?

Yeah, it takes place indoors. We actually were in Jeffrey's church at Covenant Reform Baptist Church last year, and this year we'll be in the

South Jackson Civic Center. So it will be indoors. We'll just be airing openly the theology put forth.

And I might as well list the men who are scheduled to speak, most of whom

I know personally and have interviewed on this program before. Jeff Rice is on the roster.

He is also the owner and founder of Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible Rebinding, in addition to being the hosting pastor of this conference.

My friend Andrew Rappaport of Striving for Eternity Ministries.

My friend Claude Ramsey, who pastors a Reform Baptist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee, Reformata Baptist Church.

And he is also the host of the Here I Stand Theology podcast. My friend

Keith Foskey, who is one of the pastors at Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Tennessee, and also is a podcast host and quite a hilariously gifted comedian.

And let's see, we have Brayden Patterson, Brandon Scalf, Michael Schultz, who just submitted the question,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and of course, my guest, Kevin Hay. So go to openairtheology .com

to register or to find out more about this conference. And this information that we have just received about the higher level of accountability that those who enter into the pastoral ministry have, this should really give men caution before they quickly and too eagerly pursue a calling they believe they have into the pastoral ministry.

Some may think that because they are gifted orators and love public speaking, and they know that they have a certain level of biblical literacy that they believe makes them qualified.

And we could go on and on with reasons why men want to enter into the pastoral ministry.

But some of them might not really grasp the frightening aspect of this.

Am I going overboard here? Not at all. I think that is a very important word of caution.

And I think that's what, part of what Titus 1 and 1

Timothy 3 are intending for us to do is to take inventory, not just for the man, but also for the body of leadership elders that are examining that man.

And so, if you look at 1 Timothy 3, for example, he says,

Paul says there, the saying is trustworthy. If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

And so there's an aspiration, a desire that is coming upon a man.

So he's desiring the role. And Paul says, this is a noble, lofty, high task.

And then, therefore, an overseer must be, and he begins then to list out the qualifications.

And so, if all of us are being honest, in humility, we have to sadly confess that we have fallen short in probably all of these areas to one degree or another at some point in our lives.

But that's not the characteristic pattern of those who are elders. And in fact,

I would also add that this should not be the characteristic pattern of any believer. So really, this should be a description of all godliness that takes place in our lives.

It's just that when it comes to elders, it is such a high and lofty calling that there needs to be sober examination to say, okay, you're desiring this, but what does your life look like in practice?

And so, even when you get down to verse six, he must not be a recent convert. There's a great deal of wisdom and thoughtfulness that goes into this on the part of the

Lord. Why should a recent convert not be an elder?

Well, Paul says, he might become puffed up or with pride and conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

And so, even just thinking about the pride that comes with a role of that magnitude in terms of the privilege side, right?

That you're a leader and somehow you're seen with some level of authority. So no,

I don't think that you're overstating the case at all. I think, in fact, it needs to be a very, very serious, sobering examination point for any man who would be considering whether or not

God has actually called him into the role of pastor. By the way, I wanna apologize to three of the speakers scheduled to be on the roster at the

Open Air Theology Conference. I didn't scroll down far enough and forgot that my friend,

Dr. Sam Waldron, who I've known for years, who is not only a pastor in Owensboro, Kentucky, a

Reformed Baptist church there, but he's also the president of Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro.

Sam Waldron is one of the speakers. Haps Addison, who I've also had on the program. And Jamie Terry, who is going to be a guest on the program.

And so I wanted to make sure I included these three men, even though I forgot to do so previously.

But once again, go to openairtheology .com for a full list of everybody on the roster and everything else that is required of you to register.

It's openairtheology .com. We're going to our midway break right now. So please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully contact our advertisers, keeping in mind that our advertisers are essential for this program to remain on the air.

The funding that we receive from churches, parachurch ministries, and businesses, and private practices, and people who sponsor advertising for special events, that funding is essential for our existence.

So please contact our advertisers. And when you can't buy anything that they're offering or purchase the services that they're offering, at the very least, contact our advertisers to thank them for sponsoring

Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And also send in your questions to Pastor Kevin Hay, to Chris Arnsen at gmail .com.

We'll be right back. Don't go away. Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Italy in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

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♪ Oh hail the power of Jesus' name ♪

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions.

While always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith, I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

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I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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frequently, purchased generously, always mention that you heard about them from Chris Orens and of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Also folks, please remember that if you really love Iron Trip and Zion Radio, I'm urging you to go to irontripandzionradio .com,

click support, then click click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

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And last but not least, if you are not a member of a

Christ honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, like Redeemer Bible Church of Gilbert, Arizona, I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches and I've helped many people in our audience all over the world find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live.

So if that's the case, you are without a church home, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put

I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in your questions to Pastor Kevin Hay, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And we do have an anonymous listener with a question for you, Pastor Kevin. The anonymous listener says, what do you believe are the reasons a person would leave a church because of pastoral problems that would make their leaving essential?

There are some people who may have horrible pastors and have horrible relationships with them, but they stay because they believe they are somehow and sometime going to make beneficial changes at those churches.

Sometimes I think that those people linger in bad churches far too long and if they were to be honest with themselves, they are in no position to make beneficial changes.

Some even think they're going to bring reform to denominations that are heretical and corrupt as if they were a modern day

Martin Luther. But what is your counsel in regard to when a congregant must leave the church where they are a member?

Yeah, such a great question and one that I know many believers wrestle with all over the country, if not the world.

And I myself, I'll say, have been in that situation before as a member of a church.

I remember both thinking, okay, it's probably time to go, but also previous to that thinking

I was gonna be not realizing the reference to Martin Luther would be so accurate, like a modern day reformer reforming that particular denomination, which was a fool's errand, of course.

But yeah, I would go back to Hebrews 13, 17 and just think about some of the presuppositions that are found in that verse.

So again, flowing from this concept of the foundation and the practice of worship, we see that in verses 10 through 16.

And then when you get to verse 17, as a form of our worship to the Lord, we are called to obey and submit to our leaders and let them do this with joy, not with groaning, because they're gonna keep watch over our souls.

So I think really that the presupposition there is that, okay,

I'm supposed to obey my leaders according to what? And does it mean anything that my leaders tell me

I'm supposed to automatically obey everything they say? If I say I'm thinking about buying a vehicle and the leader says it needs to be a blue one, do

I have to obey that? Well, no, the presupposition there is that we're obeying them so as they are in obedience to Christ as demonstrated in his authoritative word.

So if your pastor is telling you to do something sinful, well, we appeal to scripture, not to the sinful thing that the pastor is saying.

By the same token, if the pastor is teaching something that is untrue, we are to reject that.

So we're all called to be Bereans, right? To attest to scripture and to let that be the objective standard by which all things are measured.

So with that said, I think that number one, I would say if a person is at the point where they are considering leaving a church,

I think it needs to be brought before the Lord with a great deal of thoughtfulness and prayerfulness, asking the

Lord for his wisdom and his discernment. I think at the end of the day, if you could kind of summarize the reasons for why you would leave a church,

I think it comes down to are you at the point where you can no longer trust the leadership of your church?

Have they demonstrated in some way, one, that they are actually unqualified according to the biblical standard, or two, and kind of maybe one

A or one B, I should say, have they demonstrated that they're no longer able to be trusted because they're not actually teaching the soundness of what scripture presents?

But again, I would just kind of bookend that guidance, that recommendation with thoughtfulness, with prayer, and even counsel.

If there's another pastor or faithful brother or sister that you trust,

I would ask their counsel, get their advice on that as well, because it's really difficult to answer a question like that without all of the particulars of the context that they're in.

But in general, those are the things I think we need to be thinking about. Yes, and don't church members need to be very, very, extremely cautious about reaching the conclusions they make when they are basically laying down the gauntlet and saying, this pastor is not trustworthy,

I've gotta leave, because we are all sinners, there are occasions when your average church member may elevate the seriousness of a fault they find with the pastor, at least the fault that they see in their minds with the pastor, and it may be far more serious a fault in that person's mind than the reality would prove to be a fact.

And people do exaggerate things at times, and people can leave a church for trivial matters, and sometimes it's just because their feelings are hurt over something, but if you could expand upon what

I said. Yeah, that's a great clarification, and I think one of the saddest things for me as a pastor over the past little over a decade is seeing people leave the church without actually sitting down with me or someone else on the pastoral staff and explaining why it is that they are leaving.

And in fact, it very well could be, and I know there have been certain situations where they actually made an assumption about something that was not actually true, and jumped to a conclusion based upon that assumption when if they would've sat down at the beginning of those thoughts, then we could've had a very healthy conversation with one another, and there would've been some light shed on the situation, and they probably would not have made that decision.

So I think that's a very good point to make. Scripture does talk about being very cautious, even in making accusations against an elder.

There needs to be witnesses that are also there for that because of the high calling and the seriousness of what's at stake.

But I do think that's another great clarifying point is just to say if there's something that is really troublesome to you, you need to request the opportunity to sit down and speak with your pastor about that.

If it's so serious that you're contemplating leaving, we certainly never wanna jump to conclusions, especially based upon some preconceived idea or assumption we might have.

Okay, we have another anonymous listener who wants to know, in your biblically -trained opinion, should a pastor who changes his views on some matter of theology, let's say he moves from Arminianism to Calvinism or moves from premillennialism to Amill or postmillennialism or something to that effect, other than what the church has already established as their beliefs, perhaps even for centuries, should that pastor automatically step down or should he request a series of meetings with the leaders and congregation to work through these things because he may be able to convince those, especially in leadership, that he was correct in the changes that he made?

Yeah, and this is another one of those types of questions that really depends on the denomination you're a part of, the longstanding nature of the theology or theological position that we're talking about.

To use maybe a more blatant example, you have a guy who's pastoring in the

Presbyterian church, for example, and he reaches what

I would call the biblical position on believer's baptism rather than infant baptism. He is not going to change the

Presbyterian denomination's mind on infant baptism, and so - In fact, I know the reverse just happened recently of a church,

I'm not gonna mention the church, but the church were a listener in our audience as a member.

The reverse happened where at least two of the elders who were Baptist became

Presbyterian. Yeah, and in that case, we're talking about some very deep -seated theological issues that span literally centuries.

So that's not something that's going to shift, and I think that it would be in that pastor's best interest then to have an open conversation with his fellow leaders and then to begin addressing that and figuring out where the

Lord's leading him next. But I think other situations are not quite like that.

And I think in situations where perhaps a brother has recognized the sovereignty of God and salvation to such a degree where he sees that his church, by and large, they've not been taught that over the years,

I think the first thing he should do is begin to find opportunities to speak with the other leaders about that.

Sit down and have that conversation first, make sure that everyone is on the same page, and then begin teaching the congregation.

And I can just say from personal experience, I've never been someone who has taught Calvinism, but it's always teaching what the

Bible teaches. And of course, the fact that I'm gonna be in a conference that says why

Calvinism tells you where I'm at on that political or theological spectrum.

But, you know, so I think it's a matter of just exegeting God's word, expositing scripture, walking through the text.

But yes, those conversations do need, if there's a shift theologically, you need to make sure that the leaders of the church are not being blindsided by the shift that you've come to in your theological position.

But again, that guidance is being provided, recognizing that every context is different.

And so, you know, the decisions that are made are gonna be dependent upon what context you find yourselves in and what that theological shift happens to be, because each one of those is gonna result in a different set of decisions.

Yes. And wouldn't it also be a significant thing to add into the equation, how essential is this belief where the pastor has changed in regard to its connection to the history of that church?

Like, for instance, an eschatological change I think should warrant some kind of a study before radical measures are taken to insist that the pastor step down.

Like for instance, both the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and the

Westminster Confession, which are nearly identical intentionally, none of them are detailed about eschatology other than the belief in the visible, physical return of Christ in the future.

But they do not mandate none of those, neither of those confessions. And the three forms of unity, if I'm not mistaken also, don't insist on one or another of the major perspectives such as amillennial, postmillennial, historic premillennial, you get into more tricky areas with dispensationalism and pre -tribulationalism, but the other major views are not specified in the confessions.

So shouldn't we graciously allow somebody to try to make their case?

Yeah, and I think underpinning my first example of the theoretical brother who's making a shift on the concept of baptism would be an example of that.

I think it just becomes difficult. You know, you have primary doctrines, which are basically the doctrine of who

God is and the doctrine of the gospel that are primary in nature in that way. And if someone makes a shift on that, they just need to step down, not just from a church, but from the faith altogether.

Then you also have doctrines that are primary in terms of the church's practice.

And I think that's what we're talking about in what you're saying. There are certain practices that churches have, certain underpinnings that are crucial to how they function.

Baptism would be one of those. And I would say, yeah, eschatology would come probably just after that.

So yeah, those are major ones. And again, I think the context matters. In all of these, though, there needs to be, just like we talked about before, with members coming and speaking to their elders, the elders need to have open, honest, transparent conversations, which should be happening all the time before any drastic measures are taken.

Because at the end of the day, we believe that we're all in the same household of faith.

So we're different denominations, but we believe each other to be brothers and sisters in Christ. So that's not the conversation we're having.

It's an in -house conversation about practice. And so that needs to be taking place.

Great, and I'd like you to, before we go to any more listener questions, to bring up specific things that you had in mind when you suggested we discuss this issue and some of the things that might be pertinent and focused upon or highlighted in your dissertation about this issue.

Yeah, I appreciate that. We really have touched on many of them, honestly. I think that really the verse that even drove me to the passage is the one

I've referenced many times. And so I'll just expound on that for a few moments.

Again, for the sake of listeners who may have joined later on in the program,

Hebrews 13, 17 is such a key verse in all of scripture, but particularly this passage that we're discussing.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will give an account.

Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable to you. So if we kind of just walk through that verse,

I think it has a great deal to say to us, obey and submit those probably seem synonymous to us in a lot of ways.

But in reality, when we think about the idea of obedience, we often think of it as you just do what you're told to do.

But as I mentioned earlier, it's really anchored first and foremost in the idea that you are being obedient to scripture, and then you're being obedient to those whom

God has placed in your care as they are seeking to be obedient to scripture.

And then the second part of that submit, the interesting thing about this is that this is the only time that this is used in the entire

New Testament, this particular word. And it has really two meanings. So on the one hand, it means to stop resisting, but at the same time, it also means to start receiving admonition.

And so there's kind of this more of a passiveness on the part of submitting, and there's more of an activeness on the part of obedience.

But it's something that we are called to be doing continuously. And actually in secular

Greek, a cognate form of this word was frequently used when referring to military subordination.

So this is a pretty serious, strong language that the author of Hebrews is using.

And it's the part of these members who have covenanted together with the church, they've at some point made a commitment to say,

I'm trusting your leadership, I want you to care for my soul. And they're now called to actively obey and submit to their leaders who are teaching them the word of God.

And then the author of Hebrews goes on to give the why, because they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will give an account.

So the calling of elder is there, the calling of shepherd, the divine calling that God has placed upon these men who are gonna one day give an account for how well they have cared for the souls that have been entrusted to their shepherding.

And so the exhortation then is let them do this with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

And so the kind of question is why? Why would there be a difference between doing it with joy and doing it with grief?

Well, if you're a church member who is just constantly rebelling against the leadership of your pastor, well, that's not gonna be a very joyful experience, right?

And John says, I have no greater joy than to see that my children are walking in the truth.

And so if you wanna be a blessing to your pastor, one of the greatest ways to do that is to pursue personal holiness, to take the word of God seriously, and to seek to order yourself according to the way scripture commands.

And again, as you talked about early on in this program, Chris, we're really talking about the health of the local church, which is just such a near and dear topic to my heart.

The church is beautiful. The design of the church is beautiful. We as sinners, however, have a tendency to do things that disorder the church, that cause division in the church, and that grieves the heart, not just of our pastors, but it grieves the heart of God.

And so it's imperative that we recognize the high calling of pastors, both today and the calling that they have in the accountability that they will face one day before the

Lord, and just to recognize that their desire is to care for the souls of their people.

Okay, we have Britton in Ellicott City, Maryland. And Britton asks, do you have any counsel about pastors developing friendships with individual members of the congregation?

Yeah, as a pastor, that is a topic that I personally have wrestled with for many years.

Certainly there's nothing in scripture that would forbid a pastor from having friendships with members of their church.

And I think it's a good thing that pastors do have friendships. However, we have to recognize that there are little things that we can do to elevate ourselves to the levels, to the responsibility that pastors have.

And so we just have to make sure that the friendships that we have are in no way superseding the call that pastors have to shepherd those entrusted to their care.

So for example, if a pastor is becoming stronger friends, greater friends with a particular person, they just have to always remember that they are their pastor first, and then their friend second, and not the other way around.

I think sometimes what can happen is things that that friend does perhaps can be kind of swept under the rug because, well, they're a friend of mine and what you end up with then is kind of this differentiating, which scripture obviously speaks strongly against.

We see in the book of James, the rich and the poor juxtaposed, but the same can be said about those whom we're very close to emotionally versus those that we may not be.

And so I think that's the most important thing. And for a pastor, that can be really difficult. It can be hard to establish friendships.

You obviously wanna get close to your church members and get to know them. Shepherds should smell like their sheep, as it's been said.

But at the same time, you just have to make sure that the friendship is not in any way superseding that of the relationship between shepherd and sheep.

And we have another listener in Maryland, this time in Cabin John, Maryland, Evelyn.

And Evelyn asks, what are the safeguards and restrictions when it comes to females becoming friends with their male pastors and elders?

Yeah, that's a very, very important point. And I would say it is the same for every

Christian. So I don't think it's any different for a pastor than it is for a regular member of the church who is a male and his relationships with women.

But at the same time, I would say, when it comes to being a pastor, that the issue becomes, how do you minister to those people more than anything?

And so when it comes to biblical counseling, having principles and safeguards that a pastor will make sure to have as non -negotiables in terms of, do you have a female with you whenever you are counseling with a woman, the door to your office always being open when that's taking place, those types of things.

And I know different pastors have different standards for what that looks like. So the first thing would be just recognizing that when you go back to the qualifications for elders, being above reproach, we often have to recognize that there's a perception that comes along with our interactions.

And we have to be concerned with not just the reality of how we conduct ourselves, but we also have to be cautious of the perception.

And so as believers, we think often about our witness and perception comes in when we think about that. We wanna be careful not to do anything that could be perceived other than what it actually is.

And for a pastor, I think that's all the more important. So yeah, I think there's other things

I could say about that, but those are some of the specifics that you wanna be thinking about. But by and large, men who are

Christians should be thinking the same way pastors do about the relationships that they have with females.

You always wanna make sure that there's accountability, that's the biggest thing. We wanna make sure there's accountability because we wanna do things the way

God would want us to do them. Well, we have to go to our final break right now. And if you have any intention to submit a question of your own, please do so immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence, only remain anonymous. If your question is personal and private, we'll be right back with Pastor Kevin Hayes, so don't go away.

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put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. We have another listener,

Aurora in Glasgow, Delaware, and Aurora asks, I have heard that the pastor should never be paid more than the average person in the congregation.

Some have gone the opposite direction and say that because a pastor is deserving of double honor, he should be paid double of what the average person in the congregation earns, and there are many views in between.

I was wondering what your view on this, if any, is. Yeah, I don't think for good reason, probably scripture provides us with any sort of, you know, exact amounts, but there are principles like the one that was just referenced there, worthy of double honor, and you wanna make sure and be able to provide for them using the analogy of the ox and the threshing floor and so forth.

But no, I think the principle there is probably a good one. You think about your congregation, you know, what is the average that the church member makes?

Somewhere, you know, along those lines, thinking about the principle of double honor. I wish

I could say I had some sort of a hard and fast rule. It's one I have considered in the past, but I don't think that scripture provides us with enough, you know, point blank direction on how exactly to approach that.

But I think there are a number of those principles that we can consider to kind of come up with a good figure.

Should a man who is, especially a man who is called to pastoral office, be very careful about lavish living, you know, wearing $5 ,000 suits, driving extremely expensive late model cars, and not only should the pastor be cautious about that, should not members be very cautious about their criticism?

You know, a person might spend a lot of money in a car because they want it to last a very long time. I don't think a pastor needs to be driving down in a death trap that's falling apart.

But if you could, comment on both of those issues. Right, you know, scripture calls all of us to modesty.

That's what we're called to, to be rich in spirit, but to be modest in our apparel.

And I think it goes back in terms of pastors to what we talked about before, and that is perception.

And so there has to be a recognition that our lives are lived for others to see them.

And scripture calls us to be living examples of others. And, you know, Paul says, follow me as I follow

Christ. And that should be our mode of operation as well. And because of that, there has to be a recognition that your members are looking to you.

So what kind of message are you sending? If you are driving around in exotic sports cars, and, you know, you think about the sneakers and preachers kind of trend that has gone out, you have all of these things happening.

But at the end of the day, it's a matter of what message are you sending to those who are following the example that you're providing?

And I think it should be one that represents modesty. We are not wanting to call attention to ourselves.

We only want to call attention to Christ. And so that should be our aim. Amen. Do you have any final words that you'd like to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today?

Well, I was just gonna make, as you did earlier, Chris, a couple of book recommendations that I think could be helpful for further reading.

One of those on the topic of eldership itself is really a classic by Alexander Strauss.

He has another great book. Yeah, I've given away that book at my pastor's luncheons, thanks to his generosity, and also his book on the diaconate as well.

Absolutely. I would highly recommend all of his work. The one on biblical eldership in particular is really applicable for this conversation.

And then to kind of piggyback on your recommendation earlier, a

Puritan, John Owen has a book called Duties of Christian Fellowship. And that is just a great read.

He really sets out the responsibilities that Christian have first and foremost to their pastors, but then also to one another within the fellowship.

And so both of those would be great books if your listeners wanna continue reading on the topic.

And those books will be available at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

who sponsored this program. Well, I wanna remind our listeners that the website for the church where my guest,

Pastor Kevin Hay, serves as the under shepherd, is redeemeraz .org,

redeemeraz, for Arizona, .org. And also, don't forget about the Open Air Theology Conference next month.

And find out details at openairtheology .com, openairtheology .com. It has been such a joy,

Pastor Kevin, to have you back on the program. I look forward to your frequent return visits to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I wanna thank everybody who listened. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.