TiL Podcast- Pastoral Ordination Series- Intro

The Purpose of the Pastoral Ordination Series

Welcome to the truth in love podcast. We're going to begin a series on pastoral ordination. Stick with it. Welcome again to the truth in love podcast. We're thankful that you're with us. The comment line is open.

Leave us a comment. Let us know that you're watching. Say hello. If you would like for us to pray for you love we'd love to be able to do that. If you have a question comment, whatever it may be, we would love to hear from you.

So the comment line is open. Sometimes you have to give stream yard Permission to ask you a question so that we know that it's you. Want to say hello to Becky. How you doing big. Yeah, and we are back.

Dan and I are back alive and we're glad to be here. If you missed our last series. We did a 10 episode series that most of them around 30 minutes long on Cessation is on our take on cessationism. Well, you know, we didn't hit 30 minutes once.

That was our aim. 30 was our aim. But at least they weren't our episodes like our previous podcast but. But if you're interested in that go check out our series on cessationism, you can find it on YouTube.

They're they're put together on a playlist or a website. To the love network calm or YouTube with the love network. You can look at the people of podcast and the playlist all cessationism. Dan has been super super busy.

He he's preaching up a storm and he is Working on his steps towards ordination in in the dot denomination that he's a part of which is the.

RPCNA. RPCNA, what is the acronym sample the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America?

All right, Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America and Dan has been working hard At that and and I'm I'm proud of him and I'm I'm excited to do an episode on ordination. On that denomination and what all you're going through is learning more about that because it's it's way more extensive than anything that I'm used to.

And I'm truly looking forward to that. We're going to hopefully interview other denominations talk about how they do ordination their pastoral ordination of get different perspectives and I Don't think we're probably not really going to do so much of a critique.

It just would be learning from and then of course what we do with it with everything is we we Individually line it up with Scripture. And that's the direction that we want to go in our lives in our church and as we teach others About these things.

So Dan, how are you doing?

I'm doing great, I guess I'm. I'm taking it day by day trying to figure it out as I go. Yeah, there's so much reading.

It's probably almost like going through school again, oh man, it's uh.

It kind of is because I mean you go through school and you learn stuff and you take your tests and you write your papers and you read and you read and then you read some more and then. And then a few years later somebody's wanting to ask you in-depth questions about it in front of a whole bunch of people and you're like I Should have remembered more than I did when I went to school.

And so you read some more and you read stuff that you've read before and then you you realize oh, man I maybe I didn't go as deep in this topic as I would have liked to. Maybe I should go deeper into that one.

Maybe I shouldn't have spent so much time on this. Maybe I should read more history. Yeah, in fact, I Realized that one of the things I've got to brush up on is my Reformed Presbyterian history. And so I was talking to one of my elders about it and then he he went upstairs.

Was it yesterday? To the church office and handed me a book about that thick on Reformed Presbyterian History we trace our our history back to the time of the Scottish Covenanters and Presbyterians coming out of Scotland and Ireland and There's a lot a lot to it.

We're almost almost snuffed out at one. Yeah, shout out to John Cripps. We were we were almost snuffed out at one point didn't have any ordained elders in in our denomination sent off to none over formed in order to Ordain some folks and brought him back all sorts of cool stuff.

It was it was it's gonna be really good to look into and see and check out and everything.

You were talking about your history and in your trail of history it made me Laughs myself for there for a second. So, are there any landmark Christmas.

There there's no trouble. Blood in the Presbyterian Church. Only the baddest right? Yeah, there's. No it's not something we do. Oh That's Cool.

What Does It Mean for Something to Be Biblical?

So, I think there's a question that I want to ask every every guest that we have on from every denomination and And I'll start off asking you. And I've been wanting to bring this up with somebody in conversation to talk about it is not really in depth but it's just I think it's a it can be a key question important question, but When you're talking about Bible somebody's asking you a theological question.

Or congregant Is asking you a question about the Bible? Somebody may ask you and Lead it. Lead up to the question with this is is this biblical. Dot-dot-dot. And that can have to in my mind that can have two definitions.

Is this biblical? Okay. Are you saying is is it in the Bible or is it a practice mandated By the Bible and so. Kind of leads that question kind of leads into this pastoral ordination.

Yeah, you're asking like is it is it explicitly stated in Scripture or is it just something that we can take from Scripture? Yeah, you know like like the Trinity friends. It's clearly taught in Scripture.

But you never have somewhere that That says the word Trinity or lays out the doctrine in a systematic format. You you learn it through reading and studying the scriptures and putting the pieces together.

Is that what you're asking? Yeah, yeah, that's part of the conversation and and sometimes people on different issues. And and see it. Or flip-flop it and see in different ways. They'll say yes, it's biblical and mean that I read it in Scripture or.

And the other person can say no, it's biblical. It's something that we you know, we need to practice. It's a biblical mandate. And then on another issue they may flip-flop. Oh, yeah, I see that scripture, but it's not necessarily a biblical mandate.

Well, you talking about the difference between it being Described and prescribed. Yeah. Yeah. Is it just described in Scripture or is it something that that's mandated something that we have to do, right?

And we'll use the same term. It's biblical. Right, right exactly. And so that kind of leads up to this pastoral ordination issue. From I was just reflecting as we're talking about this issue. I was reflecting on my upbringing my tradition my practice what I've seen and I don't know that I don't know that there's ever been a class or an explanation on Why we do it.

Here's the biblical principles or verses That we go by this is why we do it it's just a Practice that I've seen in in the churches that I've attended. It's something just something that we do. And I and I hope this will be help.

I know this will be helpful for me. And I hope it's helpful for for others that watch or listen. I also hope I'm hoping a friend that Ministers and leaders from different denominations will listen in and They will they will be encouraged or they will glean or learn something as we talk to the folks from other not denominations because there's a vast difference in The way we approach ordination say in the Baptist churches that I've been a part of and what you're going through.

Oh.

Yeah, there's a lot that I can be learning. Well a lot of it a lot that's different. In fact it has to do with our church polity in our church government since the Baptists are a congregational people.

Your your church government stops at the congregational level so if you're going to be ordained Generally speaking it's through a church now. I do understand that From time to time Baptist churches will call other Baptist churches in the area to come together for an ordination council but it's kind of like a One-time thing where hey, you're gonna get together for this purpose.

I want you guys to help me examine this fella in order to prove that he's he's able to be ordained whereas in the Presbyterian Church the The power to ordain or to to defrock is is which means you're not ordained any longer.

It's given it's something that lays in the presbytery level. So the church can call. But then it's the ordination actually goes through the the presbytery level. So it's it doesn't rest entirely with the congregation.

I kind of we believe that helps out a little bit because say one congregations is desperate for a pastor. So any old Jim Bob that comes by. You know saying hey I want to be your pastor and they've been so desperate for one and he's got smooth talking words and a whole bunch of people think well, maybe this is a good idea send him before the presbytery like Oh Not this guy Should should do something else so well, yeah, and then even even then we were talking about maybe going to a Speak with the Methodists or or a I Was a brother John Church of God and what he was describing almost seemed more of a a semi Episcopalian view where you have a hierarchy almost like an Anglican or a Roman Catholic view where there's there's bishops and And what he would they would call them overseers for an area.

But but bishops and how does all that play into the ordination process? Where does the the authority to ordain come from and those denominations is something it'll be interesting to look into.

Absolutely, and you know, you you've been trying to convince me to convert to Presbyterianism and and you you're trying to get me on the infant baptism. But you're more likely to get me on this ordination thing than you will on the infant baptism.

One step at a time man. Because I can really see. If you look we're talking if you're looking over time and you look at Where in the Baptist Church, maybe some Failures or Places that need to be shored up or strengthened would be this area of ordination and we could lean and learn a lot from our Presbyterian brother.

Sure.

Church Authority, the Jerusalem Council, and Ministerial Power

Yeah, I was trying to shoehorn a way to Talk about Presbyterian Church government a little bit more, but I'll let aside for another time.

Yeah, well and you know, whenever we get to that one you were talking about the the Presbytery Handles this and the Presbytery handles that I mean that would be a good time for for you to help folks like me help understand that.

Those different levels those different positions the hierarchy and how that works because some of us are just aren't familiar with that language now.

It works. Yeah. Yeah, and I Guess the whole the whole question in that would be where does the authority of the church lie? You know, is it solely in the congregation? Is the church at large? Is there any authority in the church at large or is it all vested in the individual congregations?

I Would say that biblically speaking. Well, obviously because I'm the Presbyterian Biblically speaking, there's there's some real authority vested in in the church at large especially when you look at say the book of Acts when the Jerusalem Council comes together to decide what to do with With believing Gentiles, you know, what do we require them?

And so they bring in all the pastors and elders from From all over the place and there's binding ruling that's placed upon all the churches. It seems to me that The authority can't just stick with the congregational level.

Now maybe an argument there from some that maybe although those were apostles. Those weren't just pastors and elders. Those were apostles. So they were special. I think they're wrong, but we can fight over that.

As we go along.

Well, just in case somebody's listening or watching that that may be a little nitpicky I do want to clarify something that Dan said that I think you will you agree with me on. When I'm pretty sure that when Dan asked the question who has the authority of the church? we all Number one answer is the Lord Jesus Christ is the is our.

But what and was saying was we as Me and we as creative beings we as under shepherds. Somebody's making decisions somewhere and We want to follow the Lord Jesus Christ the best of our ability according to Scripture.

Right. Well, I want to say that because there might be somebody who's who's really nitpicky and I want to clarify right in any power.

That would lie in the church lies on the church because it is it is there given by Christ the King Who who is no ordained his church to act and function a certain way with elders and deacons to Have certain functions within his church.

So the only functions and authority that they have really is Within those narrow confines. No, what do we do? Then we could get into talking about different things about Ministerial or magisterial authority and I'm gonna bore people with big words and whatnot, but I Would say that the the church's authority the pastor's authorities is more ministerial meaning that it's there to minister to not Lord over like a magistrate.

So we are there to truly be the under shepherds the caretakers of the flock the ones who look out protect The people of the church to really love the church the way that Christ loves the church and that's The only authority that the church has.

It's an authority to care for and protect the the church by Ordering the church the way that God has said to listening to the Spirit upholding the scriptures preaching the Word of God which is why when you go to Figure out who's gonna be in charge.

That's where the ordination really comes into play, you know. Is this one qualified to be an elder in the church? Is this one qualified to serve as a deacon in the church? Because any any Anyone who holds that office is really doing so at the appointment of Christ and the recognition of the church.

And that kind of leads us to.

Ordained for What?

Set apart called out Ordained for what and I think that will be something good that we can we can discuss for what what are they called appointed to. That would be a great conversation to have so so let's get back to that initial question.

Our series is going to be pastoral ordination and My initial question leading up to this. Is it biblical or is it biblical? Yes. Is it biblical as in described or biblical as in prescribed.

Yes, both. Okay. All right, say both. I say it's it's described in such a way that the Apostles are laying out a normative principle for the church. Especially when you hear Paul saying things like it was this reason why I sent you to this place so that way you could Appoint elders in the churches.

He was he was describing events that happened. But he described events that happened in the formulation of a church. So, how is this church supposed this new church supposed to be formulated? How is it supposed to be put together built up?

What's it supposed to look like. It's supposed to look like elders in the churches and deacons alongside. Serving in a service capacity. So the question that comes to my mind.

Is. So we're saying is both and you know, and I'm not disagreeing with you. We're saying it's both. And it falls in the category of something that's prescribed Trouble that something that we should follow from Scripture in from church to church generation after generation.

So Why is it not included in? What we would label the ordinances of the church. You have the Lord suffer you have baptism. How come ordination is not included in? that list.

Well Look, we're gonna get Presbyterian on you for a second. Okay, well that that's where you're coming from that's your perspective. The Lord suffering baptism are sacraments. And I know that Baptist would say that they would have some disagreement on terminology.

Maybe depending on which stripe of Baptist you are. But we said sacramental because in them We we truly do receive the grace of God because God's grace is found in those things. And so they're they're sacramental in nature because there's real true power in in in those sacraments and then.

An ordinance would be something that has been ordained by God to be this is the way that God has prescribed us to do something. So I Would say that it's it's been it was it was ordained by God is ordained by God through the Apostles and Set forward in the church.

Described by the Apostles in Scripture and how they were setting up the churches. Yeah, so it comes from an apostolic tradition. Apostolic authority, but it's recorded for us in Scripture. So it is ordained by God but we don't necessarily have a record of The council or Time when the Holy Spirit actually spoke those things to the Apostles.

We just have the Apostles acting in a certain way in unison because that's what they've been given to do by the Holy Spirit.

Well, I just got an interesting because in in behavior in our practice We behave as if it is one of our ordinances. It's it's something that That we that we do. That we don't neglect in Most if not all churches, they they ordain.

You know, we treat it as a as an ordinance, but it it never makes that list. I find that interesting. Well, if I'm not mistaken the.

The maybe I believe one of the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church's ordination, okay. Hmm I better look that up real quick. I should know that I Know if the right presbyters watching. I'm gonna get that question on an exam.

Well, and there that leads to another question, you know, why did the Reformers if that is actually true one of the Reformers. Why has the church? Distance themselves from from that terminology from That Practice.

I mean we still do it but.

We don't have that same label. As they would. Yeah, I I was right. It's called holy orders in the Catholic Church. Okay. It's considered a sacrament and it goes back to what was sacrament. Sacrament was something that Where grace was found where something was where Christ is present ministering to his people in those things.

So we made this between sacrament and ordinance to distinguish those those means of grace that God uses to call his people to himself and to uphold them and mark them off as his own to nourish them through the gospel and those things were A sort of marching orders for the church.

This is the way things are supposed to look so that that's why there were the Reformers pulled back finding only two sacraments in Scripture and Call other things ordinance. Now, I don't know if that's why they chose those words in English sacrament and ordinance.

I don't know. I'm not.

Gonna say could we define the two words? Is Baker referring to? Okay. Sacrament ordinance. Yeah. Well, it makes sense from the Catholic Church that you know. They would they would categorize that as a sacrament because in in that position, especially you talk about the Pope.

Just a priest. Father whoever that may be is provided providing forgiveness. I mean To an individual who's in confession. You know providing a grace From God. And that it makes sense. Father will be, you know categorized under the sacraments.

Yeah, it's interesting because because holy orders in the Catholic Church They would say that once you were ordained as a priest you were given the power to turn The Eucharist into the very body and blood of Christ you got whether you were a faithful believing priest or not you always held that power to be able to perform the mass in such a way where Where it turned the the Eucharist into the real body and blood of Christ and so yeah, it was it was considered a sacrament because You were given a special authority to perform the mass.

Same thing with with baptism. Um, in fact, there were people that that they went back years later because a certain priest Is Ordained he said he said the words wrong I think and So they went back and said well all of you didn't weren't actually baptized.

Oh, wow, but there were unbelieving priests who were baptizing with the right formula and All those baptisms were considered valid by the church.

Yep, well and that makes sense while the Presbyterian and the Baptist and all the other Protestant churches Would move that from a different to a different category and fall under Ordinance rather than sacrament.

Sure. Yeah. Okay, that that makes a lot more sense. Now. I'm glad we fleshed that out. So let's um. Those I'm gonna ask you um Ordnance, so we don't we don't find that word. You mentioned that earlier.

We don't find the word ordinance in Scripture. So so what are we pulling out of Scripture? What are we seeing in Scripture that? That we're calling the ordination.

Laying on of Hands as Public Recognition

All right, so what we do see in Scripture is the the laying on of hands The setting apart for the work of God of elders and deacons in the church and It's that process of recognizing skill godliness and And calling from From God that this one is set apart for for service in the church.

So you are you are ordaining someone or Recognizing you are setting them apart for service in Christ Church in that particular.

Fashion. Yeah, so so these words that we see in Scripture calling out a point set apart which is what the what the. Which is what they were commanded to do you go to the churches and set apart or no point elders that that's what we're Calling ordination.

We just use the terminology ordination.

Yep, and it's also it's also important to point out that when when the elders were ordained in the New Testament They were ordained through a process of the laying on of hands of the those who were already Ordained to that office.

So those who already ordained to the office of elder would gather around the one who was going to become an elder. They would lay their hands on that person and pray for them. They'd be given a charge And then given given the office so The the Holy Spirit would work for that.

We pray for that. The Holy Spirit would work through them In a special way in order to have them execute that office In a godly way. That's just profitable for the church.

So if I heard you correctly, I didn't put all the verses In our document that I shared but it sounds very familiar to this person. John 15 verse 16. What I heard you say when you said We ordained somebody who's already in that office.

So it's following this trail of John 15 16 where he says you did not choose me. But I chose you and kind of in the in the Baptist Church the way I think I think we're taught or suggested or encouraged.

The direction we're encouraged to go is the the congregation is to appoint ordain call out those who are Giving signs that God has already done that work in them. Right. Well.

In There's a Ephesians 4 I believe it says that God has given some apostles and pastors and Teachers and preachers and others for the building up of the church for the work of the ministry. So it. And this is something that I Don't like.

It seems weird to me to say that pastor is God's gift to the church because It just sounds funny to say especially if you're going for the office or if you're already serving in the office of pastor. But in in the humblest sense, which is the way that we should all view that God has given men certain skills or to execute that office office of elder in the church so The ordination Recognizing.

Yeah is recognizing That gifting of that individual in their skill and godliness to execute the office of elder or deacon in the church. Yeah, shout out to.

Brother, Claude Ramsey part of the truth in love network. You're asking theology podcast. Thank you brother for watching. We really appreciate it. And I think that's where we've dropped the ball In a general sense in a broad rushing sense.

We've we've dropped the ball as as the church. Because we're so many place so many times so many places you see this being done backwards. I've seen it being done backwards. Um, I'm I may have I May find myself.

I mean if I do enough reflection on the process that I went through I may have went through the process Backwards because it's it's what I observed but you've got you've got people who are ordaining themselves.

Calling themselves or giving themselves titles. I am a possible I am this I'm that even though you know ordaining themselves or you have someone who says I feel the call To ministry. I want you to ordain me.

I've seen that so many times. And we that totally backwards totally unbiblical process. Well.

Kind of okay. It can be. Ambition can push one in the wrong way. Yes, you can get ordained online for $10 plus a $4 .99 shipping and handling fee from the Universal Life Church anyway. That's about my credentials.

Let's talk. No, I'm kidding mine expired.

Anyway. What we talked about people ordaining themselves, yeah.

That's not entirely all based because there is such a thing as at least in the Presbyterian circles we we will distinguish between an internal and an external call to the ministry. An internal call to the ministry.

Oh Goodness Internal call of the ministry is when one senses that they May be called into the ministry they feel that they could execute the office of an elder or a deacon and so really Where people will go off the rails and say well I feel called of the Lord that means that the calls on my life and then they go off and they do it or they Put the office on themselves.

What the real process of the church should be then is for them to wait for an external call now in the Presbyterian Church that means that you go for your your elders and they Examine you To see does this one have skills they have what it takes is their godliness.

They're the way that they live their life. Is that okay? And if that that's okay, they send them on to the next level where they Where they are examined by by the churches in their region and then they're saying okay Who you have passed these these examinations, we believe that you're fit for the office we're going to Say that you're eligible for an external call.

Know what? That means is that a church actually has to call you to be their pastor or their their elder. Which means that you could go through the whole process of ordination not be called by a church and Not be ordained in the ministry because Not only do you need to feel the call and have the skill if you were to be a minister in God's church.

You'll actually be called Formally to do that by a particular congregation and for a particular work. This sort of I I mean, I've heard people in a Baptist church. It's not picking on Baptist, but Someone would say well I was ordained once so I'm always a pastor and I haven't been You know behind the pulpit for years call themselves pastor that act like a pastor almost act like they don't have to go to church if they don't want to because they're a pastor and it's it's weird because the pastors actually serving in the church at The office of a pastor because that's where Christ has called them to if you don't have that external call.

Your Feelings really don't matter that much.

And according to the article that I was telling you that I was bringing back no more towns. I found it interesting. Is his recommendation on that process was and this will be towards the the Baptist side of things would be.

Not ordaining until. You know. You're you're filling that role and then call the church that you came from to ordain. So you seems like to me there's a lot of accountability there. Right, there should be yeah.

And we're talking about, you know ordaining ourselves or pursuing this yourself individually. Tell me if you think I'm on the right track here with first. Timothy 3 1 seems like Our good boundaries for me as an individual in my pursuit of this.

It says. This is a trustworthy saying if someone aspires to be an elder. He desires an honorable position if anyone wants to provide leadership in the church. Good. This saying is trustworthy if anyone aspires to be an overseer.

He desires a noble work. So for me individually. What what's my role in this and what are my boundaries? Recognize that. Aspiring that you have in your heart. Nope. Evaluate it according to scripture.

Yeah, well that's the thing if you feel that calling you desire the office. There's a there's several lists that tell you what you need to be like, you know to be a pastor. So I guess start there. It isn't a bad thing for anybody to do, you know.

Even if you're not going to be a pastor or an elder, you know. Look at the qualifications for for for an elder and just try to be that those are good things for any Christian to be.

The Laying on of Hands in Scripture

We're working on about 20 minutes we have an hour maybe we can touch on Ordained to what but also want to talk on. The laying on the hands issue that seems to be part of the process pretty commonly most churches where we we found that Practice in scripture.

We continue that practice when we ordain someone. And that's in the circles that I'm around. That seems to be the only time we we lay hands on someone. Possibly if we're if we're doing a group prayer for a sickness or something.

Well, we'll lay hands and we'll lay hands on shoulders to Symbolize us that those that we can't reach where we're reaching them through the shoulders of the person in front of us. But that seems to be the only time we look we lay on hands in in our tradition.

I was no one touch people either. Please unless it's necessary keep your hands off of me.

But I was I was looking through scripture trying to get a handle on This practice where it's mentioned and I was look in the Old Testament. It seems like it was it was a practice of laying on hands you had a trance it seemed like a transfer of blessing and I'm just going to give you a spiel of What I was thinking as I went through this and you can give me your thoughts on it.

But but in the Old Testament you had it seems like a symbol of a transfer of something the transfer of blessing. You had the the transfer of sin to the scapegoat. You know, you had to lay your hands on it and Send it out to the wilderness.

So there seems like a transfer of something when you lay your hands when you look through the Gospels. The main mentioning of laying on our hands seems to be from Christ himself and he's laying his hands on Someone who's sick.

Healing that healing the sick that seems to be the majority of what you read in the Gospels. In Acts it seems like the laying on the hands is a practice of transferring of the Holy Spirit. And so there's different seems like different things happening in the act of laying on hands in different places in Scripture.

And then you have in beyond Acts in in the the epistles pastoral pistols you have laying on of hands or while we're talking about ordination the the separating the setting setting apart calling out appointing of Elders and deacons and so it seems to me that There there's different Different applications, but but what put it all together for me.

Let me see what brother Paul says here laying on laying hands on is Representative those in the present day giving their public approval of the one being ordained for the gospel ministry. Absolutely. I totally agree with that.

But Me try to put it all together from the Old Testament the Gospels acts and then the pastoral pistols and seeing Seeing it happen in all those different places different things happening. It come across to me if I could compare it to how a Baptist may understand Baptism you it's a symbol.

It's an outward symbol of an inward Inward spiritual act that's going on as men, we can't transfer the Holy Spirit, but but touching someone. It seemed like it was like an outward symbol of what was going on on the inside you were being touched by God by the Holy Spirit or Touching the the scapegoat is is an outward symbol of an inward Transaction that the sin is being removed and sent away or laying on hands of ordination.

For the for the pastor a deacon. It's a it's an outward symbol of what like we're talking about before what God has already done or been doing in a man's life. Same with baptism an outward symbol of what God has already done in someone's life and and that's it's Not really related but it's the same concept this is the verse that I was looking at before we come on in Matthew 18, you have the the practice of church discipline and You have that verse that people use out of context where two or three are gathered together in my name I'm there in their midst.

I was talking about church discipline. But so you have two verses up before that it says truly I say to you whatever you bind on earth Shall have been bound in heaven and and what I learned studying this passage is if you read it in If it was to be worded or spelled out in Literal Greek from Greek to English You it would read as such truly I say to you whatever you bind on earth has already been bound in heaven.

Whatever you loose on earth has already been loosed in heaven. Again I say to you if two or three or if two of you agree on earth. About anything you may ask it shall be done for you by the Father who is in heaven because it's already been.

It's already been ordained by him it's already been bound by him you're just agreeing with heaven is what I learned. Studying that and so this laying on the hands from my estimation looking at it throughout scripture it seems to be an outward symbol of An inward spiritual act by God.

Nothing's nothing special. I think some folks may want to think they're Special Qualities to to laying on hands of someone. It and so you have verses that that tackle that. That issue first simply 522 do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for their sins for the sins of others keep yourself free from sin and.

When I read that verse I couldn't help but think about the TV preachers who are just laying home hands on everybody. They're they're healed. They're laying their hands on them. They're falling out and I'm thinking first simply 522 Don't lay your hands on anyone too hastily as not to share in their sin.

And so that was kind of my take as an overview of scripture Old Testament New Testament. What are your thoughts on my assessment? Oh.

Like I like the general thrust of it. Okay. I don't know if I don't know. But I like the general thrust of it. Um one one thing That I don't know a lot of Protestants may get the heebie-jeebies about is thinking about Apostolic succession meaning that we have an unbroken line of Christ Church in the world through.