Talked About the Debate with Shabir Ally then The Death of Christ

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening Banter and Program Setup

And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on a rainy Thursday afternoon in in normally sunny Phoenix, Arizona, but thankfully looks like the lights stayed on and we weren't washed down the stream and We are here at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1.

I know it's a little bit disappointing for those of you who Who were listening to the pre-feed to have to shut off the great Milo Hotzenbuehler just for me to come on. But I'm sure that he will be back.

I need to make sure to get some of his biggest hits on. I think Alone again is is got to get that one on there and especially the the all-time classic a boy named Hotzenbuehler. Every time that one plays the the sound you hear is The original author the original artist of that song spinning in in his or her grave wherever that is.

Yes, it's Always good to keep the folks happy before you start the program because once the program starts, you know You're gonna be making them unhappy. Anyway, so they start off unhappy. Then it's it's it's not a good thing 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 just a couple things.

Want to make sure that I assume if of course you are Listening to the program that that means you certainly know where our website is. But I'm always surprised at how many people will actually listen to the program and not actually like read the blog.

For once in a while and if you want to know what's going on around here and what's happening what's coming up. You've got to you got to stay on the blog. You got to keep an eye on what's going on there and both.

Actually.

James Swan and Alan Kirshner and Colin Smith have all been Active over the past few days. You will note that Colin has been writing a series an excellent series In regards to Islam and so I hope you all have been catching that predestination.

Islam the first Installment posted I believe Yesterday. Yes yesterday, and I believe the next one I scheduled for either tomorrow morning or the next morning. It's tomorrow morning that will that will post where he interacts with Norman Geisler's critique of the Islamic viewpoint on the subject of Predestination.

This is a topic we get a lot of people asking about and So hopefully you're following that. But right up at the top. Well, some of you have noticed that I haven't quote-unquote abandoned YouTube or anything like that but I just someone came in channel and said have you all heard about God tube and I'm like God God tube and so I looked and it's it's basically a Christian version of YouTube except.

They.

It's it's still in the beta Testing. Okay, so it's not final. It's working. It's a little bit slow when you post stuff. It's been taking at least two hours or so to get a file up no matter how big the file is actually.

But the quality is pretty pretty tight it looks looks pretty good. And once it once it gets there, it seems to work. So you can't get anything up there very fast at the moment, but it's not actually supposed to launch officially until May anyways, so Everything I've uploaded they disappear next week.

It was a beta. Sorry. It's gone but anyway, I Just thought I would you know, see if maybe It would work and so anyway, I've been throwing some some things up there and One of my threw up there was some of the some of the more humorous moments from some debates I'm looking at one right now that has a humorous section from my debate with Mitch Pack on the priesthood and He can he comes back awful fast with stuff you I don't remember I Had not remembered that he had said you're married I'm not sure at the audience necessarily.

I said you you know, I said something about a problem with having a superior he says hey, you've got a wife and Of course think about that for a little bit what he just said about his own superiors but we're not gonna get into any of that, but anyway, and then rather humorous section with John Dominic Crossan as well.

I posted up there and I am waiting for a A Bill Rutland one to post right now. I uploaded it, but it's it's been an hour and it still hasn't shown up because it's right at the 10. This one doesn't say 10 minutes.

It says 100 Meg 100 Meg limit now that means it's still gonna have the same limit as YouTube, but I don't know we'll find out but Be that as it may I'm uploading these things and so those are there for your your viewing pleasure.

Shall we say but right at the top of the page other than the nice? radar graphic of these storms that just blew through the the Phoenix area Yeah, actually I'm getting a 60 cycle hum in my ear I'm not sure if it's my computer or just just what it is.

But oh, it's is it the phone system? It's in there somewhere. That's that's that's a high-tech response.

Well, I could say it's in the thingy but it's I'll I will discover where it's coming from when I tear the phone system apart. Okay, so that'll that'll solve. Maybe maybe I mean don't know you don't know that.

Yeah, and it's very possible. It's just in our headphones set, you know, and we're not actually.

Broadcasting any of that. So, you know, it's it's not overly noticeable, but Anyway, right top of the page. Thank you, sir, right top of the page there is a link for you to follow and I'm clicking it myself even as we speak and There you will find the official page for the debate was Jesus Christ crucified as a willing sacrifice the sins of God's people myself versus Shabir Ali.

And Information as to how you can purchase tickets you can book the hotel. Which would be the best way to do it, by the way, I mean, it's it's a really nice hotels. It's a very I don't recall ever being in a hotel quite like the SeaTac Marriott.

It's it's really nice the little restaurant thing there you can sit over in this side and look out toward the pool and the pools inside and and It's it's it's a really really nice location. We obviously have taken to it since this will be the second debate that we've done there and I've stayed there a couple times for various sundry things.

So That information is that people have been asking me how they could, you know, make sure that they've got their tickets. They've got everything taken care of so right at the top of the blog page right now for those of you listening on archive Hopefully in the not-too-distant future.

If it's really distant future, then this is all irrelevant to you anyways, and you'll actually be trying to find a way to buy the tapes of all this but Why do we keep saying tapes? We don't you don't make tapes anymore.

Remember cassettes? I remember I remember the nut that sound at a high-speed cassette duplicator makes As it goes back, oh, yeah. Mm-hmm and Already there are young people that are going cassette. What's a what's a cassette?

What what was that? Anyway? This is for the 322 2007 if you're looking for the link as you are listening on the archive and also a nice commendation for from Toronto to Emmaus by Jay Adams and He writes James White has done it again.

Remember that wasn't a Jay Adams that in the advertisement for the justification book Said I lost sleep over this book. Yeah, and I feel badly That that I that I really caused anyone to lose sleep I mean that was just I just feel very badly about that.

But James White has done it again this timely book handles the infant I just love some of these Infidel ravings of people dedicated to destroy Christianity with care and precision. It is a devastating reputation of an outrageous claim and As I was sort of like the I got a scroll down for this one, but I loved the one from dr. Martin.

Yeah, this one right here The new the new bunk in question is the film The Lost Tomb of Jesus and the pseudo scholarship and wacky science that precipitated it. In a word, dr. White readily shows that Christianity is perfectly safe from this lame attempt to stab it under the fifth rib.

Stab it under the fifth rib hadn't I just don't think of those things when people ask me to endorse a book or something like That I I don't know. I I struggle struggle to figure out how to say things in a in a new way, but thankfully other folks have Do not have the same difficulty that that I do eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we you know, I last was it now is last week that we played some of the portions from the exchange between Eric and Kanner and the rational response squad and I Had a few points of disagreement obviously with the approach that dr. Kanner took but primarily my my criticisms were aimed at the rational response squad squad and a specific fellow by name of Rook Hawkins and So I had sent an email and let them know that I was going to be reviewing their comments.

I've never heard anything back from other than a FAQ note. That's just auto-generated and but I did get a few other folks who called not called but wrote and Said good luck ever getting these guys to to put themselves in a position where they would be forced to do a fair debate anyway.

A number of people indicated that they're fairly well known for sort of bagging out on that kind of stuff. So I guess that probably means even though we clearly invited them. We have open phone lines even as we speak sitting here right now.

Probably not ever gonna hear from them and They're not gonna put themselves in a position of actually having to answer questions as to Exactly how the Gnostic writings are relevant to reconstructing the text of the New Testament or something along those lines or whether?

Rook Hawkins really was saying that the Council of Nicaea had something to do with the can of scripture and all that so We honestly we get a phone call. We will we will rush them to the front of the line, but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.

Unfortunately, though that would be would be a nice thing. I would be nice to nice to all of a sudden see that pop up on my screen that Rook Hawkins is calling in and in listening to an interview they did a the other fellow what I forget what his name is with.

With the yeah, you check checking the phone lines or they're all still working one still got a buzz on it though probably. Not the buzz is calling in but it has a buzz on it. That's a different thing.

I heard an interview on a Texas to actually to Texas stations with the head of the rational response squad and He said that he had sold his business and was now doing this full-time, how do you. What what is what kind of a job is it to be an atheist evangelist?

You know what? What does that involve and what does? What does your day? Involve when you're in a in essence an atheist evangelist when you get up in the morning, you know, and you're you're getting your breakfast and You're looking forward to the rest of the day.

Just just what is running through your mind. I'm gonna destroy the faith of another Christian today. You know. Only in Western culture, I don't think they do well in Islamic cultures don't think they did not.

Something tells me that that the UPS man is gonna come running in here at any moment. He's gonna be really wet because it's it's raining on him. But some tells me they they wouldn't do well in Islamic cultures at all and.

But here in the West, I guess I guess you can make a living. How do you get it make a living? I mean, I know that they've got some some Subscription prices you can pay on their website subscribe to what?

Get your daily dose of unbelief here. You know, I it just I don't know. It's it's very very very odd. People are actually talking about turntables in my chat channel right now turntables. That's that's.

I have a turntable I was recording records just recently on vinyl as my daughter referred to it. The rest of us call it vinyl but There's something really nostalgic about a song on a vinyl record that's that's got that special pop and hiss to it that's.

That the younger generation just does not even begin to understand. Anyway, I am Wandering around too much here. It's happens when it rains, you know, it's so unusual for those of us in the Phoenix area.

You just sort of start feeling nostalgic. You know. You want to sit in your rocker and watch the watch the rain come down eight seven seven seven five three three four one. Let's continue with what I was going to do and talk about today and that is since we have posted The information on the debate in case we've got some new listeners stuff like that.

I understand. Please be apprised. That the reason that there is an ad column on the blog is because that's where we tell you important things. And over there on that side that we have the cruise in October and The debate that will be taking place at the end of the cruise the first time I've ever done this this way I think it's going to be really neat.

It's going to keep us focused during the course the cruise I think sometimes when you have the debate when you get all the stuff right at the beginning. Then the cruise, you know is sort of the the relaxing letdown part.

This time the whole cruise subject is going to be on the crucifixion. The cross it's theology and it's historicity and I've got admit the historicity part.

I.

You know this this tomb story was not really a diversion from that. This is this is quite relevant to the whole subject. It has given me some some good insights along those directions as well. So We're gonna be having a class on the cruise.

For those of you who are looking for intense seminary type training That's we're going to be doing during the course the cruise and then the debate on the Friday night We we get back to shore Friday morning.

We will take transportation to the SeaTac Marriott. Hopefully have enough time to Catch a nap or something that afternoon and then have the debate that evening at the SeaTac Marriott so if you want to find a a really good excuse to get away and To see a beautiful part of the country, but also to get some training You're gonna want to do that and so on the program today I'm going to continue the review that we have begun of Shabir Ali's comments on the subject Did Jesus die and if you are not?

Aware of the background of this first day you've been listening. You need to understand that from the Islamic perspective Jesus Christ did not die. In fact, he was taken to heaven by Allah and someone I should note someone in channel earlier today Had encountered some Muslims and was asking some questions about the very standard regular Islamic Argumentation that is presented.

And.

One of the things he pointed out was Well, it's a little bit odd. You know, I mean Muhammad died and all the rest of prophets died, but but Jesus Jesus didn't. Doesn't that sort of set him apart? Well, I suppose an Islamic apologist might well Enoch, you know go that direction, but it is odd to Functionally see the fact that whether they like it or not Muhammad ends up Taking many of the roles in Islam that Jesus of course has in Christianity I mean, he's Muhammad's last and greatest prophet from our perspective, you know, Jesus is prophet priest and king.

So he is that final prophet he is that one high priest. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And so if you're going to try to piggyback on a faith Is present yourself as a continuation over the fulfillment of Judaism and Christianity you're you're gonna have to make some major modifications to what you think Christianity once was in comparison to what it is today and one of those major modifications is Based upon surah 4 157 in the Quran and which of course tells us that Jesus Christ was not Crucified upon a cross he was not killed by the Jews Allah took him to himself according to 158 and That had come up in the conversation that the gentleman was mentioning in channel as well in regards to surah 4 and 157 and it's a someone else maybe one of Jesus's disciples had been crucified and So, you know surah 4 157 just it just lands out of nowhere.

That is one of the problems when you read the Quran and if you go back and listen to the programs we've done before. We've we've talked about the Quran a number of times. We went through all the verses in the Quran that mentioned named Jesus and things like that but it is it is so difficult to interpret the Quran in its own context.

Because it doesn't help to provide much of its own context without the hadith. You really can't make heads or tails of it but even then.

You just.

You know, I sit back and I go where did this come from where did this denial of the crucifixion come from? Certainly Muhammad was familiar with the cross. He could not have he could not have seen any of those Christian churches on any of his travels that I haven't seen a cross by the 7th century, I mean It seems that he thought the Trinity was Allah Jesus and Mary anyways.

So he had seen the Exaltation of Mary and like he would have seen the cross over and over again so it seems that it is the Islamic idea that that prophets are especially holy and That there is no way That Jesus if he was truly a prophet could have died in that fashion.

Allah would not have allowed that to happen. He could not have allowed one of his true prophets to to die As an accused blasphemer that just it just doesn't fit that must be the source that that brings about This denial and sir formed 157, which does not even pretend To create any kind of historical argument at all.

There is nothing there that even starts to try to to make a meaningful dent in The fact that the the earliest Christian documents the earliest Christian preaching all say the same thing. You you just you cannot find any stratum of Christian teaching in the New Testament.

You can't find it in in extra biblical sources That is not Absolutely wedded to the idea of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. You can't do it. So Muhammad doesn't try and of course, I don't know that he would have cared to make the attempt anyways, obviously it wasn't what he was trying to do, but it certainly leaves the the Muslim in the position of having to Massacre the text of the New Testament and Utilize the most radical Forms of criticism and just just chop it up into pieces.

Nothing. No pun intended there In regards to trying to deal with this issue of the cross you just you can't get rid of it. But they have to try they're forced to by their sources and that's what we are listening to In Shabir Ali's presentation.

Did Jesus die? So we'll continue on with that right here. Hoping that my high quality Not even quite Radio Shack level plug here and my my Dell laptop. Well, why you take that personally or something?

I think he's dug this out of an old box. It came from.

16th Street and Camelback or something. That is a studio quality connector.

Just because some people like a studio quality connected. It's got a number on it.

It's got a little little number. It's it's got a number because it's what?

You're offended. I can tell. I can tell him I've offended a brother. Ah, it's amazing what people take offense at. But let's continue.

Whoever will teach people to break these commandments he will be called least or smallest in the kingdom of heaven and so We see that the deeds are emphasized also by Jesus. Jesus and whom be peace according to the Gospels.

Taught his followers that they should still maintain Circumcision for example that they should still keep the Sabbath Although not to the extent that the Jews were keeping the Sabbath with all of their elaborate laws and regulations Concerning the Sabbath he told them that the Sabbath is made for man not man for the Sabbath.

In other words, the Sabbath is made to keep human beings in good check. But not the stifle human beings and people were practicing the Sabbath regulations in such a way that it really stifled Them and so he came to relax some of that law, which the people were practicing.

Obviously, there is a difference there between the law itself and the rabbinic interpretations that law. Same kind of things have developed in Islam as well as far as the Hadith schools and things like that.

He still told them that they should practice the same things. But not to the extent that they were practicing them. So he still gave them laws. He still gave them Regulations.

It's not that he gave them something new in that sense. Obviously he is The Sermon on the Mount he's. I know that there are people who interpret this way, but I think they've. They've missed the boat on this.

But.

He he certainly as We noticed that mr. Ali had cited. Talks about the fact that he did not come to destroy the law. But to fulfill and that anyone who taught against the law they would be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven.

And his interpretations of those things went to the heart of the matter. It wasn't just external Fulfillment that was in Jesus's mind, but that's not like Jesus is somehow giving some replacement law or some new law.

Something along those lines. And the only reason I mentioned this is because there there are some sermons I've heard trying to identify Muhammad in the in the text of the Bible and they will say that back in Deuteronomy 18 This prophet who gives who gives law.

This is this is what Muhammad did and giving this new law type of situation.

That's why I mentioned just in passing here for example that they must act like their forefather Abraham. Did he said that if you want to really be children of Abraham then you must do the things which Abraham?

Did. And so he emphasized action he emphasized right conduct.

Yeah, except what Abraham did was believe in the promises of God, which is what Jesus is calling for in faith in himself, too. But that's. Not really, I think a proper application there.

But anyway, he emphasized the things the very things which Muslims also Emphasized and in fact if you say that somebody died for your sins then That runs contrary to the idea of performing right action because the idea of performing right actions means that It's not with an expectation that you're going to be judged according to these actions.

No, there is a you know again.

This is going to be the same type of situation That we faced in the Hamza Abdul Malik debate where over and over again when I when I pressed mr Malik in regards to well, why are you saying that this verse has to be an interpolation?

Why are you saying this must be a contradiction? He would always go back to those ideas and those concepts that came to him from Islam. And that he is now trying to read back into pre-existing texts, even though they were not a part of the original context.

The interpretation that you must take of any one of these texts has to be the interpretation that is provided by Islam itself. And that's what you have here, too. The idea that someone dies for your sins is not opposed To the recognition of judgment.

It's just you recognize that if you're going to be judged you have no hope that there is absolutely nothing that you can do that there is a a relaxation of the ultimate holiness of God in the Islamic concept this clearly is.

I mean if God can just wink at sin and Forgive it without his law being fulfilled without his wrath being fulfilled and just simply say well, okay, no worries on that one then the holiness of God has been has been diminished tremendously and That's why there is a view of sin here.

That would actually make almost any Pelagian very happy I realize it's an anachronistic Cross-categorical error, but I'm hopefully you can understand what it is. I'm referring to there There is not a strong biblical doctrine of sin here or the holiness of God or the wrath of God things like that in in the Islamic position.

Furthermore and I should say now thirdly the third point is this that we The entire Bible apart from the writings of st. Paul and prior to the writings of st Paul we should say it makes it quite clear that Human beings do not need someone to die in their stead.

You see in the Old Testament, which is basically the Bible of the Jews It is stated many times that if you commit certain sins what you do is you? Sacrifice an animal and that will be the thing Based on which God will forgive your sins.

So in other words you commit a wrong you sacrifice the animal. God says in the Old Testament many many times at least 14 as I've Been able to count your sins will be forgiven. It says so many many times you do this and the sins will be forgiven.

In fact according to Leviticus the book of Leviticus In the Old Testament, which is part of what the Jews would call the Torah There are some instructions are given on how to celebrate. What is called a day of atonement Or yom kippur as the Jews still celebrate today on that day according to that instruction the high priest which Used to be Aaron at one time the first high priest the brother of Moses that he's to take two goats one of them he will a Sacrifice and so he will let the blood spill and he will sprinkle the blood on the altar in a particular way.

But the other one the other goat it says that Aaron is to place his hands on the head goats head. And by placing his hands on this goats head he's to put the sins of all the entire Community upon the head of the goat and then you should send that goat out into the wilderness.

What will happen then. The goat will therefore take away the sins of the people.

Now just in passing the the scapegoat is only a part of the the Pictures the multiple pictures that are provided in the Old Testament of the coming work of Christ, but. Before we take a break make sure you understand how in Shabir Ali's mind.

He set this up. He said before the writings of Paul. Because you're sitting here and remember what what the average Christian is doing is going well wait a minute Hebrews says this and and Romans says this but but from Shabir Ali's perspective Jesus Paul hijacked Christianity.

Paul Paul ran away with Christianity gave us a different view of Jesus. It's not historical, you know, all the anti-pauline liberalism that's out there Shabir Ali buys lock stock and barrel and presents it as the view of scholarship.

As I pointed out in May of last year that would mean he'd likewise have to accept all the most liberal Orientalism that dismisses the existence of Muhammad and and turns the Quran into a compilation of various and sundry sources and things like that, which he doesn't do but That's the inconsistency aspect that we will always having to be have to deal with in this context.

But from his perspective all those texts that you're thinking of you're thinking of Hebrews. You're thinking of of those texts that talk about atonement propitiation all that stuff in the New Testament.

That was hijacked by Paul. So wait a minute. Some of these are in even in the Gospels. Well hit from his perspective since Paul preceded the Gospels then that means that even the gospel writers were infected by Paul and.

So that's the way around this. I know what you're thinking because I'm thinking the same things. But that's why he said before Paul, so we'll pick up with that after the break. Also, take your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We'll be right back.

The Debate with Shabir Ally and the Islamic Denial of the Crucifixion

It's a journey.

What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult. Secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

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James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called Extreme Calvinism. Defines what the Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the Reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org. Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned.

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see. The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?

The charges are as follows. Prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross-dressing ignoring God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town.

Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org. The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the God who justifies Theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

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Get your copy today at a omen org.

That's probably gonna end here. So pretty soon.

It goes on quite a while, huh? I like.

Well.

If I ever have to take a potty break, we know what to do. Just fire up the the rejoinder music and let it roll. Hey, you can get a good altar call going on. I good. I see that hand. I said, yeah, that's right.

Oh, I've been in some long ones of those. Let me tell you something. I mean there are people who repented just simply from the evil thoughts. They're having about how long the invitation lasted. That's.

That's how you get your numbers inflated man. Let me tell you and if any of you are feeling evil About how long this invitation got you need to come forward to and you know half the congregations in the altar in no time 877.

People are going. Oh, oh, we got to be careful. We laugh at oh You and I have got to be careful. We laugh at cuz I you know.

You.

Never know what what what what people are listening and what filters they have on their headsets, you know what I mean? Unbelievable unbelievable indeed. Did you know we have a an elected official in the chat channel?

Yes, in fact, I've I've been to his town. You've been. Well, of course. Who hasn't a lot of people.

Okay, I'm that long-term residents of Arizona, okay. I think I broke down there once. As I was passing through quite seriously, it's well if you're gonna break down in a town, I guess that's the one.

Yes, indeed one of our channel regulars or irregulars. He's irregular because There is you know the air exists between keyboard and user. That really describes. In fact I mentioned him on the dividing line a couple weeks ago when I said there was someone who whose every sentence was such an incredible attack upon the English language and the art of spelling that it was just just outrageous and so so Lo and behold the the fellow ran for mayor and Anyone and he's 60 60 40.

It was a good win. And so now we have we have elected.

60 votes to 40 votes.

851 votes cast. Wow that town has grown since I was there last. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there you go. So the.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm edumacated. That's right. So so we now have famous people in our chat channel and we want to congratulate him. And and of course, I think it's tough to be a Christian in any form of politics to be quite honest with you.

Not not that there would be anything about the Christian faith. It would cause a problem just when you live in a world like ours. It's just it's tough. So we got a got to pray for him.

And.

For that that pray for that town up there too that so they've got a good secretary for him. They don't make heads or tails. I have anything that he writes so I could get really confusing but congratulations to.

We'll call him mayor whistle. So we don't get him in too much trouble here. But anyhow, we continue on with the examination of Shabir Ali's teachings on the subject of the Atonement. Did Jesus die?