Talked About the Debate with Shabir Ally then The Death of Christ

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a rainy

Thursday afternoon in in normally sunny Phoenix, Arizona, but thankfully looks like the lights stayed on and we weren't washed down the stream and We are here at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1

I know it's a little bit disappointing for those of you who Who were listening to the pre feed to have to shut off the great

Milo hot some Bueller just for me to come on But I'm sure that he will be back I need to make sure to get some of his biggest hits on I think

Alone again is is Gotta get that one on there and especially the the all -time classic a boy named

Hudson Bueller every time that one plays the the sound you hear is

The original author the original artist of that song spinning in in his or her grave wherever that is

Yes, it's Always good to keep the folks happy before you start the program because once the program starts, you know

You're gonna be making them unhappy. Anyway, so they start off unhappy then it's it's it's not a good thing 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 just a couple things

Want to make sure that I assume if of course you are Listening to the program that so that means you certainly know where our website is

But I'm always surprised at how many people will actually listen to the program and not actually like read the blog

For once in a while and if you want to know what's going on around here and what's happening what's coming up?

You've got to you got to stay on the blog. You got to keep an eye on what's going on there and both

Actually James Swan and Alan Kirshner and Colin Smith have all been

Active over the past few days. You will note that Colin has been writing a series an excellent series

In regards to Islam and so I hope you all have been catching that predestination

Islam the first Installment posted I believe yesterday.

Yes yesterday, and I believe the next one I scheduled for either tomorrow morning or the next one

It's tomorrow morning that will that will post where he interacts with Norman Geisler's critique of the

Islamic viewpoint on the subject of Predestination. This is a topic. We get a lot of people asking about and So hopefully you're following that but right up at the top.

Well, some of you have noticed that I haven't quote -unquote abandoned

YouTube or anything like that, but I just Someone came in channel and said have you all heard about God tube and I'm like God tube and so I looked and it's it's basically a

Christian version of YouTube except they It's it's still in the beta

Testing. Okay, so it's not final. It's working. It's a little bit slow when you post stuff

It's been taking at least two hours or so to get a file up no matter how big the file is actually

But the quality is pretty pretty tight. It looks looks pretty good And once it once it gets there, it seems to work

So you can't get anything up there very fast at the moment, but it's not actually supposed to launch officially until May anyways, so Everything I've uploaded may disappear next week.

It was a beta. Sorry, it's gone but anyway I just thought

I would you know, see if maybe It would work. And so anyway, I've been throwing some some things up there and One of my threw up there was some of the some of the more humorous moments from some debates

I'm looking at one right now that has a humorous section from my debate with Mitch Pack on the priesthood and He can he comes back awful fast with stuff you

I don't remember I Had not remembered that he had said you're married

I forget Yeah, I'm not sure that the audience necessarily said you you know I said something about a problem with having a superior says hey, you've got a wife and Of course think about that for a little bit what he just said about his own superiors but we're not gonna get into any of that, but anyway, and then rather humorous section with John Dominic Crossan as well.

I posted up there and I am waiting for a Bill Rutland one to post right now

I uploaded it, but it's it's been an hour and it still hasn't shown up because it's right at the 10

This one doesn't say 10 minutes. It says 100 Meg 100 Meg limit now. Well, that means it's still gonna have the same limit as YouTube, but I don't know.

We'll find out but Be that as it may I'm uploading these things and so those are there for your your viewing pleasure

Shall we say but right at the top of the page other than the nice? Radar graphic of these storms that just blew through the the

Phoenix area Yeah, actually I'm getting a 60 cycle hum in my ear

I'm not sure if it's my computer or just just what it is. But oh, it's is it the phone system?

It's in there somewhere. That's that's that's a high -tech response Well, I could say it's in the thingy

I'll I will discover where it's coming from when I tear the phone system apart. Okay, so that'll that'll solve

Yeah, and it's very possible it's just in our headphones set, you know, and we're not actually broadcasting any of that so it's it's not overly noticeable, but Anyway, right top of the page.

Thank you, sir, right top of the page There is a link for you to follow and I'm clicking it myself even as we speak and There you will find the official page for the debate was

Jesus Christ crucified as a willing sacrifice the sins of God's people myself versus Shabir Ali and Information as to how you can purchase tickets you can book the hotel

Which would be the best way to do it, by the way, I mean, it's it's a really nice hotels It's a very I don't recall ever being in a hotel quite like the

SeaTac Marriott. It's it's really nice The little restaurant thing there you can sit over in this side and look out toward the pool and the pools inside and and It's it's it's a really really nice location.

We obviously have taken to it since this will be the second debate that we've done there and I've stayed there a couple times for various sundry things.

So That information is that people have been asking me how they could you know, make sure that they've got their tickets

They've got everything taken care of so right at the top of the blog page right now for those of you listening on archive

Hopefully in the not -too -distant future If it's really distant future, then this is all irrelevant to you anyways, and you'll actually be trying to find a way to buy the tapes of all this but Why do we keep saying tapes?

We don't you don't make tapes anymore. Remember cassettes? Remember, I remember the nut that sound at a high -speed cassette duplicator makes

As it goes back, oh, yeah. Mm -hmm and Already, there are young people that are going cassette.

What's a what's a cassette? What what was that? Anyway? This is for the 322 2007 if you're looking for the link as you are listening on the archive and also a nice commendation for from Toronto to Emmaus by Jay Adams and He writes

James White has done it again. Remember that wasn't a Jay Adams that in the advertisement for the justification book

Said I lost sleep over this book. Yeah, and I feel badly That I that I really caused anyone to lose sleep

I mean that was just I just feel very badly about that. But James White has done it again this timely book handles the infant

I just love some of these Infidel ravings of people dedicated to destroy Christianity with care and precision.

It is a devastating reputation of an outrageous claim and As I was sort of like the

I gotta scroll down for this one, but I loved the one from dr. Martin Yeah, this one right here

The new the new bunk in question is the film The Lost Tomb of Jesus and the pseudoscholarship and wacky science that precipitated it in A word, dr.

White readily shows that Christianity is perfectly safe from this lame attempt to stab it under the fifth rib Stab it under the fifth rib hadn't

I just don't think of those things when people ask me to endorse a book or something like That I I don't know. I I struggle struggle to figure out how to say things in a in a new way, but thankfully other folks have

Do not have the same difficulty that that I do eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we you know,

I last was it now is last week that we played some of the portions from the exchange between Eric and Kanner and the rational response squad and I Had a few points of disagreement obviously with the approach that dr.

Kanner took but primarily my my criticisms were aimed at the rational response squad squad and a specific fellow by name of Rook Hawkins and So I had sent an email and let them know that I was going to be reviewing their comments

I've never heard anything back from other than a FAQ note that's just auto -generated and but I did get a few other folks who called not called but wrote and Said good luck ever getting these guys to to put themselves in a position where they would be forced to do a fair debate anyway

A number of people indicated that they're fairly well known for sort of bagging out on that kind of stuff So I guess that probably means even though we clearly invited them we have open phone lines

Even as we speak sitting here right now Probably not ever gonna hear from them and They're not gonna put themselves in a position of actually having to answer questions as to Exactly how the

Gnostic writings are relevant to reconstructing the text of the New Testament or something along those lines or whether?

Rook Hawkins really was saying that the Council of Nicaea had something to do with the can of scripture and all that so We honestly we get a phone call

We will we will rush them to the front of the line, but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon

Unfortunately, though that would be would be a nice thing I would be nice to nice to all of a sudden see that pop up on my screen that Rook Hawkins is calling in and in listening to an interview they did a the other fellow what

I forget what his name is with With the yeah, you check checking the phone lines are they're all still working one still got a buzz on it though probably

Not the buzz is calling in but it has a buzz on it that's a different thing I heard an interview on a

Texas stay actually to Texas stations with the head of the rational response squad and He said that he had sold his business and was now doing this full -time, how do you

What what is what kind of a job is it to be an atheist evangelist?

You know what? What does that involve and what does?

What does your day? Involve when you're in a in essence an atheist evangelist when you get up in the morning, you know, and you're you're getting your breakfast and You're looking forward to the rest of the day

Just just what is running through your mind. I'm gonna destroy the faith of another

Christian today You know Only in Western culture,

I don't think they do well in Islamic cultures don't think they did not Something tells me that that the

UPS man is gonna come running in here at any moment He's gonna be really wet because it's it's raining on him. But something tells me they they wouldn't do well in Islamic cultures at all and But here in the

West, I guess I guess you can make a living. How do you get it make a living? I mean, I know that they've got some some

Subscription prices you can pay on their website subscribe to what? Get your daily dose of unbelief here.

You know, I it just I don't know. It's it's very very very odd People are actually talking about turntables in my chat channel right now turntables

That's that's I have a turntable I was recording records just recently on vinyl as my daughter referred to it.

The rest of us call it vinyl but There's something really nostalgic about a song on a vinyl record that's that's got that special pop and hiss to it that's

That the younger generation just does not even begin to understand. Anyway, I am

Wandering around too much here. It's happens when it rains, you know, it's so unusual for those of us in the

Phoenix area You just sort of start feeling nostalgic, you know You want to sit in your rocker and watch the watch the rain come down eight seven seven seven five three three four one

Let's continue with what I was going to do and talk about today. And that is since we have posted

The information on the debate in case we've got some new listeners stuff like that.

I understand Please be apprised that the reason that there is an ad column on the blog is

Because that's where we tell you important things and over there on that side that we have the cruise in October And the debate that will be taking place at the end of the cruise the first time

I've ever done this this way I think it's going to be really neat. It's going to keep us focused during the course the cruise

I think sometimes when you have the debate when you get all the stuff right at the beginning Then the cruise, you know is sort of the the relaxing letdown part

This time the whole cruise subject is going to be on the crucifixion The cross it's theology and it's historicity and I've got to admit the historicity part

I You know this this tomb story was not really a diversion from that This is this is quite relevant to the whole subject

It has given me some some good insights along those directions as well. So We're gonna be having a class on the cruise

For those of you who are looking for intense seminary type training That's we're going to be doing during the course of the cruise and then the debate on the

Friday night We we get back to shore Friday morning. We will take transportation to the

SeaTac Marriott. Hopefully have enough time to Catch a nap or something that afternoon and then have the debate that evening at the

SeaTac Marriott so if you want to find a a really good excuse to get away and To see a beautiful part of the country, but also to get some training

You're gonna want to do that and so on the program today I'm going to continue the review that we have begun of Shabir Ali's comments on the subject

Did Jesus die and if you are not? Aware of the background of this first day you've been listening

You need to understand that from the Islamic perspective Jesus Christ did not die In fact, he was taken to heaven by Allah and someone

I should note someone in channel earlier today Had encountered some

Muslims and was asking some questions about the very standard regular Islamic Argumentation that is presented

And one of the things he pointed out was Well, it's a little bit odd. You know,

I mean Muhammad died and all the rest of prophets died, but but Jesus Jesus didn't

Doesn't that sort of set him apart? Well, I suppose an Islamic apologist might well, you know, you know go that direction, but it is odd to Functionally see the fact that whether they like it or not

Muhammad ends up Taking many of the roles in Islam that Jesus of course has in Christianity I mean, he's

Muhammad's last and greatest prophet from our perspective, you know, Jesus prophet priest and King So he is that final prophet he is that one high priest

He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And so if you're going to try to piggyback on a faith

Is present yourself as a continuation over the fulfillment of Judaism and Christianity you're you're gonna have to make some major modifications to what you think

Christianity once was in comparison to what it is today and one of those major modifications is

Based upon surah 4 157 in the Quran and which of course tells us that Jesus Christ was not

Crucified upon a cross he was not killed by the Jews Allah took him to himself according to 158 and That had come up in the conversation that the gentleman was mentioning in channel as well in regards to Surah 4 and 157 and it's a someone else.

Maybe one of Jesus's disciples had been crucified and So, you know surah 4 157 just it just lands out of nowhere

That is one of the problems when you read the Quran and and if you go back and listen to the programs we've done before We've we've talked about the

Quran a number of times We went through all the verses in the Quran that mentioned named Jesus and things like that but it is it is so difficult to interpret the

Quran in its own context Because it doesn't help to provide much of its own context without the hadith.

You really can't make heads or tails of it but even then you just You know,

I sit back and I go where did this come from where did this denial of the crucifixion come from?

Certainly Muhammad was familiar with the cross He could not have he could not have seen any of those

Christian churches on any of his travels that I haven't seen a cross by the 7th century,

I mean It seems that he thought the Trinity was Allah Jesus and Mary anyways

So he had seen the exaltation of Mary and like he would have seen the cross over and over again so it seems that it is the

Islamic idea that that prophets are especially holy and That there is no way

That Jesus if he was truly a prophet could have died in that fashion. Allah would not have allowed that to happen

He could not have allowed one of his true prophets to to die As an accused blasphemer that just it just doesn't fit that must be the source that that brings about This denial and surah 4 and 7 which does not even pretend

To create any kind of historical argument at all. There is nothing there that even starts to try

To to make a meaningful dent in The fact that the the earliest

Christian documents the earliest Christian preaching all say the same thing You you just you cannot find any stratum of Christian teaching in the

New Testament You can't find it in in extra biblical sources that is not

Absolutely wedded to the idea of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. You can't do it.

So Muhammad doesn't try and of course, I don't know that he would have cared to make the attempt anyways, obviously it wasn't what he was trying to do, but it certainly leaves the the

Muslim in the position of having to Massacre the text of the

New Testament and Utilize the most radical Forms of criticism and just just chop it up into pieces.

Nothing. No pun intended there In regards to trying to deal with this issue of the cross you just you can't get rid of it

But they have to try they're forced to by their sources and that's what we are listening to In Shabir Ali's presentation.

Did Jesus die? So we'll continue on with that right here. Hoping that my high quality

Not even quite Radio Shack level plug here and my my Dell laptop. Well, why you take that personally or something?

I think he's dug this out of an old box. It came from 16th Street and Camelback or something.

That is a studio quality connector Just because some people like a studio quality connected.

It's got a number on it It's got a little little number. It's it's got a number because it's what?

You're offended I can tell I can tell him I've offended a brother Ah, it's amazing what people take offense at but let's continue

Whoever will teach people to break these commandments he will be called least or smallest in the kingdom of heaven and so We see that the deeds are emphasized also by Jesus Jesus and whom be peace according to the

Gospels Taught his followers that they should still maintain Circumcision for example that they should still keep the

Sabbath Although not to the extent that the Jews were keeping the Sabbath with all of their elaborate laws and regulations concerning the

Sabbath He told them that the Sabbath is made for man not man for the Sabbath In other words, the

Sabbath is made to keep human beings in good check But not the stifle human beings and people were practicing the

Sabbath regulations in such a way that it really stifled Them and so he came to relax some of that law, which the people were practicing

Obviously, there is a difference there between the law itself and the rabbinic interpretations that law

Same kind of things have developed in Islam as well as far as the Hadith schools and things like that He still told them that they should practice the same things

But not to the extent that they were practicing them. So he still gave them laws. He still gave them

Regulations It's not that he gave them something new in that sense

Obviously he is The Sermon on the Mount. He's I know that there are people who interpret this way, but I think they've they've missed the boat on this but He he certainly as we noticed that mr.

Ali had cited Talks about the fact that he did not come to destroy the law But to fulfill and that anyone who taught against the law they would be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven

And his interpretations of those things went to the heart of the matter. It wasn't just external

Fulfillment that was in Jesus's mind, but that's not like Jesus is somehow giving some replacement law or some new law

Something along those lines and the only reason I mentioned this is because there there are some sermons

I've heard trying to identify Muhammad in In the text of the

Bible and they will say that back in Deuteronomy 18 This prophet who gives who gives law

This is this is what Muhammad did and giving this new law type of situation That's why

I mentioned just in passing here for example that they must act like their forefather Abraham Did he said that if you want to really be children of Abraham then you must do the things which

Abraham? Did and so he emphasized action he emphasized right conduct

Yeah, except what Abraham did was believe in the promises of God, which is what Jesus is calling for in faith in himself, too but that's

Not really, I think a proper application there But anyway, he emphasized the things the very things which

Muslims also Emphasized and in fact if you say that somebody died for your sins then

That runs contrary to the idea of performing right action because the idea of performing right actions means that It's done with an expectation that you're going to be judged according to these actions now.

There is a you know again This is going to be the same type of situation That we faced in the

Hamza Abdul Malik debate where over and over again when I when I pressed mr.

Malik in regards to well, why are you saying that this verse has to be an interpolation? Why are you saying this must be a contradiction?

He would always go back to those ideas and those concepts that came to him from Islam And that he is now trying to read back into pre -existing texts, even though they were not a part of the original context

The interpretation that you must take of any one of these texts has to be the interpretation that is provided by Islam itself

And that's what you have here, too The idea that someone dies for your sins is not opposed

To the recognition of judgment. It's just you recognize that if you're going to be judged you have no hope that there is absolutely nothing that you can do that there is a a relaxation of the ultimate holiness of God in the

Islamic concept this clearly is I mean if God can just wink at sin and Forgive it without his law being fulfilled without his wrath being fulfilled and just simply say well, okay, no worries on that one then the holiness of God has been has been diminished tremendously and That's why there is a view of sin here.

That would actually make almost any Pelagian very happy I realize it's an anachronistic

Cross -categorical error, but I'm hopefully you can understand what it is. I'm referring to there There is not a strong biblical doctrine of sin here or the holiness of God or the wrath of God things like that in in the

Islamic position furthermore and I should say now thirdly the third point is this that we

The entire Bible apart from the writings of st. Paul and prior to the writings of st

Paul we should say it makes it quite clear that Human beings do not need someone to die in their stead you see in the

Old Testament, which is basically the Bible of the Jews It is stated many times that if you commit certain sins what you do is you

Sacrifice an animal and that will be the thing Based on which

God will forgive your sins So in other words you commit a wrong you sacrifice the animal God says in the

Old Testament many many times at least 14 as I've Been able to count your sins will be forgiven

It says so many many times you do this and the sins will be forgiven in fact according to Leviticus The book of Leviticus in the

Old Testament, which is part of what the Jews would call the Torah There are some instructions are given on how to celebrate.

What is called a day of atonement Our young people as the Jews still celebrate today on that day according to that instruction the high priest which

Used to be Aaron at one time the first high priest the brother of Moses that he's to take two goats one of them he will

Sacrifice and so he will let the blood spill and he will sprinkle the blood on the altar in a particular way

But the other one the other goat it says that Aaron is to place his hands on the head goat's head

And by placing his hands on this goat's head he's to put the sins of all the entire community

Upon the head of the goat and then he should send that goat out into the wilderness

What will happen then the goat will therefore take away the sins of the people?

Now just in passing the the scapegoat is only a part of the the the pictures the multiple pictures that are provided in the

Old Testament of the coming work of Christ, but Before we take a break make sure you understand how in Shabir Ali's mind.

He set this up He said before the writings of Paul Because you're sitting here and remember what what the average

Christian is doing is going well Hebrews says this and and Romans says this but but from Shabir Ali's perspective

Jesus Paul hijacked Christianity Paul Paul ran away with Christianity gave us a different view of Jesus.

It's not historical, you know all the anti -pauline liberalism that's out there

Shabir Ali buys lock stock and barrel and presents it as the view of scholarship As I pointed out in May of last year that would mean he'd likewise have to accept all the most liberal

Orientalism that dismisses the existence of Muhammad and and turns the Quran into a compilation of various and sundry sources and things like that which he doesn't do but That's the inconsistency aspect that we will always having to be have to deal with in this context

But from his perspective all those texts that you're thinking of you're thinking of Hebrews You're thinking of of those texts that talk about atonement propitiation all that stuff in the

New Testament That was hijacked by Paul. So wait a minute. Some of these are in even in the Gospels Well hit from his perspective since Paul preceded the

Gospels then that means that even the gospel writers were infected by Paul and So that's the way around this.

I know what you're thinking because I'm thinking the same things But that's why he said before Paul so we'll pick up with that after the break also take your phone calls at eight seven seven seven

Five three three three four one. We'll be right back How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way it's a journey

Following Jesus Oh What is dr.

Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

James White replies to dr. Geisler But the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture The potter's freedom a defense of the

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his Word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?

The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the

Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

That's probably gonna end here some pretty soon it goes on quite a while, huh? I like Well, if I ever have to take a potty break we know what to do just fire up the the rejoinder music and let it

Roll. Hey, you can get a good altar call going on. I See that hand I said, yeah, that's right.

Oh, I've been in some long ones of those. Let me tell you something I mean there are people who repented just simply from the evil thoughts.

They're having about how long the invitation That's how you get your numbers inflated man

Let me tell you and if any of you are feeling evil About how long this invitation got you need to come forward to and you know half the congregations in the altar and in no time

Hey 7 -7 People are going. Oh, oh, we got to be careful.

We laugh at oh You and I have got to be careful. We laugh at because I you know You never know what's what what what people are listening and what filters they have on their headsets, you know what

I mean? Unbelievable unbelievable indeed. Did you know we have a

An elected official in the chat channel Yes, in fact, I've I've been to his town you've been well, of course who hasn't a lot of people

I think I broke down there once As I was passing through quite seriously, it's well if you're gonna break down in a town

I guess that's the one Yes, indeed one of our channel regulars or irregulars he's irregular because There is you know the air exists between keyboard and user that really describes in fact

I mentioned him on the dividing line a couple weeks ago when I said there was someone who whose every sentence was such an incredible attack upon the

English language and the art of spelling that it was just just outrageous and So so Lo and behold the the fellow ran for mayor and anyone and he's 60 60 40

It was it was a good win. And so now we have we have elected a 60 votes to 40 vote 851 votes cast

Wow, that town has grown. So yeah, I was there last. Yeah. Yeah, so Yeah, there you go, so the

Yeah, I'm edumacated. That's right so so we now have famous people in our chat channel and we want to congratulate him and and of course,

I Think it's tough to be a Christian in any form of politics to be quite honest with you

Not not that there would be anything about the Christian faith. It would cause a problem just when you live in a world like ours

It's just it's tough so we got a got to pray for him and For that that pray for that town up there too that so they've got a good secretary for him

They all make heads or tails. I have anything that he writes so I could get really confusing but congratulations to We'll call him mayor whistle.

So we don't get him in too much trouble here. But anyhow, we continue on with the examination of Shabir Ali's teachings on the subject of the

Atonement did Jesus die? That was the understanding. So in other words according to those instructions, which are still in the

Bible today There is a way to get rid of your sins without having anyone dying for you.

All you need is this goat and now I'm Hoping honestly hoping and I'm I would assume this time around That Shabir Ali is going to take the time to to be very well prepared now

I'm not saying he was not prepared for a last debate if you've watched the debate with Shabir Ali he makes most of his presentations without any notes at all and he's quoting off the top of his head and That's very impressive

Except that I had already heard all those presentations and hence was prepared for them

And I don't believe that Shabir Ali had heard any of mine This time I have a feeling

I know that he knows about the dividing line now and Has mentioned that he has listened to it

I don't know that he listens to it regularly But I would imagine he probably checks the description and if his name pops up something tells me that I'm sitting here talking right now to Shabir Ali in a way and Hi Shabir.

How you doing? And I hope you hope you still enjoying that that New American Standard Bible We got for you there at that was that was fun anyway

I'm hoping for in fact, I would like to make some suggestions I would like to suggest in fact,

I I need I know everybody keeps saying hey, you've got this list up for the cruise We need to know what books we need to be reading.

I need to get that up I know I was supposed to get that up weeks ago this little thing called you know an entire book which

Now I'm being criticized for having written it too quickly You can't write a book that long in 16 days well if it's all you're doing and it's not the first time you've ever heard these things you can but I'm gonna get the

I'm gonna get that out and you get that list out and Help people to get that and I would like to suggest that Shabir Ali Take a look at the books that I'm I'm assigning for the for the classes.

It's gonna be taking place in the cruise The reason being that if you would look at for example, the apostolic preaching the cross by Leon Morris the apostolic preaching the cross

This kind of presentation you you know, you go get a goat That's that's not even really

I think Meaningfully interacting with with historical Judaism at that point and what it understood of the sacrificial system but certainly from a

Christian perspective That's not how you build a really strong case on on this issue because you can go into the

Old Testament and There are numerous places Where you have the statements in the

Psalms, you know, I I don't I'm not looking for your burnt sacrifices I'm not looking for the offerings on your altar

Look to your heart do justice a broken and contrite heart.

There's much more in The Tanakh itself even not worrying about Paul.

There's more of it there To just say well, you know, there's this mechanism you go get a goat. Well, what did that goat represent?

What did that goat mean? I? Mean when when we criticize what Muslims do when they throw rocks at the devil, what's their response?

Well, it represents well if you're good if you're good answer that way then you need to use the same methodology in the same standards in Referring to the the

Christian viewpoint is incidentally is where the term scapegoat comes from you know when you want to put your blame on someone else you say let's find a scapegoat and It so happens that this is where the term

Came from you get a goat that takes the blame of all of the people and goes away with it

So the people are now free so did these people need someone to take away their own sins? No They already had the goat which took away the sins and there was no reason then to have a human being die in their place if now you have a human being comes and Dies in the place of those people it would mean that their sins are taken away twice

First by the goat and then secondly by the human being so we should stick with the one

It is quite clear that according to the Bible Human beings would have their sins taken away in that particular

Manner and they do not need someone else to come and die in their stead now again

I'm hoping for something a little bit more substantive in October than that Because the scapegoat is is not even the normative practice and under Jewish law

The there's a whole realm of offerings dependent upon the nature of the sin and and also there's all sorts of stuff

That's not even not even coming in here. It's not like oh well. You know you don't you don't need a

Someone to die for you because you know you've got two bulls and goats and calves and you got all these offerings

And that's that's how you get forgiveness for your sins What did those things point toward and and this is to me?

What's sort of exciting is is this not the exact argument that the epistle to the Hebrews responds to?

That says there can never be forgiveness of sins in the blood of goats and bulls and calves

Because of the repetitious nature of the sacrifice this has to have been pointing to something greater

And that's and you now start as you listen to this because in many ways Islamic apologists utilize

Jewish apologetic arguments because they're going back to a pre -christian concept anyways

What they reject in the New Testament is the uniqueness of the New Testament, so they're going back to what they think

That you know obviously like I've said they believe that Jesus and the Apostles and everybody else they were Muslims and so since they've rejected the unique element of the

Christian faith they go back to what they think would be before that and there are a lot of parallels between pre -christian

Judaism and Islamic thought and so they're going back to that and That's where you would you would say no no wait a minute

You know I'm not saying they're going back to the fulfillment of where you've got Do justice and broken and contrite hearted things like that, but the the idea of here's these sacrifices, and it's

Christianity It says what were these pointing to look at how all these things fit together

You go to the book of Hebrews, and you look at Melchizedek And you start seeing the the messianic prophecies you start looking at Isaiah 53 you start seeing how all this stuff fits together and it's it reminds me of What I just wrote a few days ago about the the the road to Emmaus and How Jesus opens the minds of the disciples to understand?

What all the scriptures? said concerning himself, and how it was necessary that the

Christ had to suffer and die and We we are rarely pushed to that point of having to make those those kind of arguments and most of us

I can't make them very well and This this sort of pushes us back to that level a fourth point we can mention is that in fact

The Bible itself shows that nobody else can die for the sin of the guilty person on one occasion it is quite clear that God was angry with the people of Israel because they continuously disobeyed

God and Moses stood up to plead for them, and he said God Let these people go just forgive them

Otherwise if you won't forgive them then block me out of the book of life You know erase my name from the book of life

But God's reply to Moses according to the Bible itself is that God will not

Penalize the innocent person in order to let the guilty go free So Moses does not have to be blocked it out from the book of life, and God is willing to forgive people even without Having somebody else blocked it out from the book of life so according to the

Bible's answer. It is no To the majority of the Bible gives us the impression that there is no one to die for your sins now that is a exceptionally surface level reading first of all there's there's nothing in Moses's intercession for the people of Israel that Necessitates the conclusion that this mean the by the this means the

Bible teaches the one man cannot take someone else's it No, the whole point of substitution has found the entire sacrificial system the point is that the sacrifices that are offered have to point

Because of the fact that there they are not equal and they are repetitious they have to point to a greater fulfillment

That's that's yet to come that's where the prophecy Comes into play and certainly the Muslim cannot consistently deny the existence of prophecy

Especially when they on the other hand then turn around and say it the Bible prophesies the coming of Muhammad So that that doesn't work so you have the prophetic element of the coming of the

Messiah the fulfillment of the sacrificial systems you got substitution in the concept of the the the blood the covering of the

Mercy seat you have all these aspects that can only be fulfilled as The book of Hebrews correctly argues in the person of Jesus Christ that is all there

You can't just take well, you know Moses once offered himself not as a sacrifice to remove the sins the people but in regards to the diversion of the wrath of God in that particular instance and Well, I'm gonna

I'm going to expand out from that to mean that the Bible saying that one person cannot take the sins of others one

Sinner cannot take the sins of others obviously, but that's the whole reason for the sinlessness of Jesus Christ But remember from the

Islamic perspective, they look at people like Moses and things like that as particularly holy in the first place that great gulf that exists between the sinless perfection of Christ and The sinfulness of the prophets is much diminished in the

Islamic mindset You've got to keep that in mind as you're dialoguing with these folks that from their perspective they're not going to want to be accusing

Jesus of sin so much as Elevating the Apostle not the

Apostles the prophets to where there's just not that much of a difference at that point say and for us there's there's a there's an ontological difference between the incarnate

Christ and And the prophets let alone the the issue of you know Isaiah the one of the holiest men in Israel recognizing the depth of his sin that issue of sinfulness you you just Again it's it's a it's a term we use to describe something else, but you are talking to Pelagians You are talking to individuals who do not believe in the absolute necessity of the grace of God in regards to Soteriology as a whole there are fundamental foundational differences

That you have to keep in mind, but remember and you might say well if there's just so much of a difference How can you even how can you even talk with these folks?

Well? It's real easy It's it's the same we have the same common ground with the

Muslims that we have with everyone else They are created in the image of God they're created in the image of God and What does that mean that means that the

Holy Spirit of God? Can bring conviction of sin? That's why this is not just a matter of Facts and figures you got to have your facts and figures.

You know you don't you know you don't want to do stuff That's unnecessarily Diversionary that's going to shut down the conversation because you've needlessly offended somebody you need to have you know

What you know what you're talking about? But the point is you can have all the facts in the world and unless the Holy Spirit of God brings conviction of sin to where these folks can recognize that the wrath of God does abide upon them and that all the

Acts of contrition you know we've got it. We've got it. We've got to get him back in the confessional with Martin Luther you know you've you've got to have that kind of Spirit -born conviction of sin if you're going to get anywhere in this in this type of a situation you bear your own sins

To illustrate this point furthermore. We have a book known as Ezekiel in the Bible according to this book in chapter 18

The soul that sins is the very one which is going to die now Does it surprise you to be hearing

Ezekiel 18 in this context it shouldn't you know But here instead of it being used to say well.

There's no election unto salvation now. It's being used to say that there's no substitutionary atonement there's there's no means of Christ bearing voluntarily in his body

The wrath of God against the people of God instead you have this one section where we're again people were were ignoring

God's command to repent Upon what basis they were saying why should we bother?

because We are suffering for what our parents did The the parents ate grapes and the children's teeth have been set on edge, so there's a there's no reason to repent

There's no reason to do the things that you're saying to do the prophets say that you know You know do justice do righteousness repent and turn and I will be merciful unto you well

That's not going to work because I mean look at look at our circumstances here We're suffering for what our parents did and so there's no reason for us to be listening to the prophets and the prophets say no

That's that's not the point when God calls you to repent. Yes, you may be experiencing you the the difficulties that You're experiencing under under Nebuchadnezzar for example

The difficulties of being cast off into Babylon Yeah Your parents and your grandparents and your great -grandparents and the generations before that they're the ones that brought that on to you, but Just because you're experiencing judgment against your land because of that doesn't mean that you then are given a free pass to just Ignore the command to be faithful in the context of what you find yourself in and so Ezekiel says no

The soul that sins shall die don't sit here and say that you're gonna die because of what somebody else did

You need to respond to the prophetic message that is delivered to you So take that and here you'll hear it being used to try to get around the idea that that God can that the triune

God Can choose Father Son and Holy Spirit to bring about salvation the way they've chosen to do so in the substitutionary atonement of Christ Not that somebody else will die for you.

In fact, it quite clearly specifies that if there is somebody who has sinned That sin does not get blamed on his children his children

For example, they're not going to be penalized because the father was unrighteous So long as the child himself is righteous

The child will not be penalized for the sins of the father the father alone will die for his own sins and likewise the chapter goes on to explicate that The sin of the child will not be transferred to the father

So the sin of the child is the child's own sin. So long as the father himself is righteous He will not bear the sin of the child

So the sin does not get transferred from one generation to the other the child is not to be penalized for the sin of the father

Nor is the father to be penalized for the sins of the child now again, that's only partially true

That's only within the context that Ezekiel is addressing because elsewhere in Scripture especially in the in the

Torah in the Mosaic law the the blessings and the cursings do have generational aspects in the sense that When the people of Israel for generation after generation would allow for the degradation of Yahweh's worship

They would allow for the the Asherim the high places the idols That this is going to have an impact upon the nation generation after generation

That it's that the children are going to suffer because of what the parents did Again context has to be allowed to to speak in each one of these situations and Ezekiel's addressing a particular thing

Remember Ezekiel makes reference to a proverb to a proverb that was popular amongst the people of Israel and it was the misuse of that Proverb that is being addressed within that context a lot of people skip right past that part

It says in the Bible in that chapter of Ezekiel chapter 18 the soul that sins is the one that will die

So the one that sins that's the one that's going to die not someone else not someone else in place of that one person

Let me look at the teachings of Jesus a little bit more clearly We see that much of what he taught

Indicated that he didn't come to die for the sins of the world. For example in Luke's gospel

Jesus now, I remember if if you've listened to Shabir before then you you weren't surprised

What was just said, but if you haven't and if you're not accustomed to modern secular humanistic

Interpretations of the Bible and you go secular humanistic. He's a Muslim. I know that's the point He shouldn't be using this kind of stuff, but he does and many of his compatriots follow him in this

You need to understand that from Shabir Ali's perspective the Bible is grossly corrupt.

I mean grossly corrupt More corrupt than then you would you would find being argued by many

Similar to how I've had many Mormons argue that the Bible has been corrupted that we that many plain and precious truths have been removed one of the another one of the interesting parallels between Islam and Mormonism, but and so he feels free to cut the teachings of Christ up into whatever convenient portions he would like to utilize and That would indicate then that he can take a portion of Jesus teaching from one book and put it in contrast or contradiction to the

Teaching from another book or the same book Context flow Consistency everything that he would demand that we use all the time with the

Quran that we allow the Quran to speak for itself Does not apply the New Testament. He doesn't have to allow the

New Testament speak for itself Because well, there are scholars that say that's contradictory. Well, there's scholars to say the

Quran is too, but he doesn't accept that That is the the the uber documented

Regular problem. That's why I sort of coined a phrase in our debate in May Inconsistency is a sign of a failed argument and that's that's the problem there so we'll pick up with that the next time on the dividing line and We'll have to invite you all to call in next time to test riches new phone system

I see him opening the boxes out there. So the the surgery is about to begin and So if there's no dividing line on Tuesday, don't blame me.

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