Faith on the Edge! Is the Earth Flat?

Recording Notice and Speaker Introduction

Terry, Terry, are you there? I am here. Okay. Hello. Disclaimer. That we're recording. Yes, I'll do that. So hello. This is Terry Camerizel and I want to put out a disclaimer first on behalf of Creation Fellowship Institute that we are recording this event, so I want to ask all of you who are on zoom with us to Turn off your microphones and we also would like to ask you to turn off your cameras.

So that Pat is going to be the only one whose video is showing while he shares his presentation. So I am happy to introduce to all of you our speaker for tonight. Which is Pat Roy. Pat Roy served at the Institute for Creation Research for 12 years as the director of Broadcast media.

It was during this time at ICR that he and his wife created the Jonathan Park Audio-dramas a creation based audio drama heard by millions around the world. Pat has served as the director of Genesis apologetics.

He has traveled the nation speaking to hundreds of audiences of all ages about the importance of trusting God's Word and now Pat is working full-time as the director of the Mount St. Helens Creation Center.

But in between there Pat spent several years along with Kyle Justice as one of the creation guys. Together they traveled and researched and created the documentary faith on the edge. Which gives biblical and scientific case against the flat earth.

So we're happy to have Pat Roy here with us tonight to talk to us about that. This is our last regular presentation of our Virtually their 2020 fellowship that we've been having every Thursday night since the Lockdowns started and so we're glad to be finishing with a big bang.

Well, you know what? Pat Roy is our last but not least speaker of our regular series. So tonight he's gonna go a little bit long because he has some great Videos and and presentation to share it with us and he promised not to bore us.

So we're gonna appreciate that and if you're watching along on Facebook or if you're watching on zoom. If you do have any questions for Pat, you can go ahead and put them into the chat. And at the end, we'll have a short Q &A time and ask him a couple of those questions.

So with that Pat, we're happy to have you go ahead.

Why the Flat Earth Movement Matters to Christians

Terry thank you so much. By the way, I've been watching the different speakers that you've had. It's been amazing. You guys have had just some a minute, you know, I may actually be the least of the speakers you've had actually I'm not sure about that.

But Anyway, yes, my name is Pat. I'm with the creation guys. The creation guys is myself and Kyle justice. We were partners. Both of us have been in the creation movement. For many many years. I've been in the creation movement for probably about 35 years.

Kyle about the same both he and I are media producers. And so it's really kind of cool that we met because both of us have a lot of similarities in our lives. So tonight I'll be producing this Documentary that Kyle and I produced together called faith on the edge.

So basically it is a documentary about the flat earth so. Anyway, like I mentioned both of us work in creation ministry. And one of the things that we started hearing quite a bit a couple years ago was that many many of the creation ministries.

We're starting to hear from flat earthers and they weren't happy with the creation movements. And so as we were talking to different places We began to realize that maybe we needed to put together a documentary now at first.

We were hoping there would be a documentary that really debunks the flat earth. And then as we went along we began to realize that really it's hard to bring somebody back from believing in the flat earth.

Matter of fact along the way we contacted answers in Genesis Institute for creation research CMI we also talked to David Reeves and a bunch of other Ministries that have tackled this subject and the question I asked was have you ever had somebody come back from the flat earth again?

And the answer was No, really. There hasn't been somebody that started to believe in the flat earth who came back to being a round earther again. And so we began to realize that the purpose of this project was not to turn flat earthers into round earthers.

And who cares about that? Anyway, it's just the shape of the earth, right? I mean what's more important is Christ. So we began to realize that more what we were doing was providing an apologetic. So people would know ahead of time the evidence against the flat earth.

So that hopefully if they heard about the flat earth someday that they would choose not to go that direction. Okay. So if the shape of the earth isn't important, why is a documentary important about it?

Well, what's interesting is when we first started considering the project we made a post on Facebook and just let people know about the project and what we were doing and what was Amazing was right away.

We got a response from a woman and this is basically what she said. She said guys I need help. My husband became a flat earther and ever since then he's pulled us out of church. He doesn't read the Bible anymore except for to try and prove that the earth is flat.

He no longer talks to our children except for to try and convince them that the earth is flat and she said I need help. My whole life has changed since my Husband became a flat earther. So basically we took her a little message and we asked her if we could post that on Facebook anonymously and so we did and what was amazing is we started to hear from ladies all around the nation.

We heard from so many people that were saying that's my situation. My husband became a flat earther and ever since then our lives have changed and he's no longer sharing about Christ. And so Kyle and I began to realize that the shape of the earth really isn't important.

Who cares if it's round who cares if it's flat it really doesn't make a difference at all. But what we began to realize is that it's important because I believe that it's another Distraction or deception that's keeping men and some women as well from the first mission.

Which is serving Christ with their whole heart. And so I truly believe that it's a deception that's going on. Well tonight, I'm sure that there might be somebody there. That's a flat earther. And if so, listen, I don't mean to To I guess make this like an argument more.

It's like what Proverbs says 21 17 Iron sharpeneth iron so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. So listen, I love when Christians can debate when it drives you deeper into the scriptures again and brings you closer to truth.

But listen, I'm not here for a fight tonight. Really what I'm here for is just to provide some thoughts for you to think through. Well now the flat earth is going huge matter of fact there are believers around the globe.

That are actually becoming flat earthers. And so it is a huge movement. It's not a small movement. I believe that most churches either think that it's a silly idea or they believe that it's really not that many people Converting to the flat earth, but it is huge again.

We've gotten emails from churches that have split over the whole flat earth issue. Of course millions of people are posting on social media there are millions and millions of YouTube videos Facebook posts all kinds of posts on social media that are giving so-called evidence for the flat earth.

So this is where a lot of this is being generated is there are just a lot of content about the flat earth. Matter of fact, you can even take a flat earth cruise nowadays if you want to you can sign up for a flat earth cruise.

And with all the food on the the cruise. Maybe it should be the the fat earth cruise if you eat all that food. But yes, you can go on a flat earth cruise. Not only that but one thing that we heard from a lot is that there are flat earth dating sites.

If your wife just doesn't become a flat earther and she ends up leaving you you can actually go online. And you can actually find Another date on flat earth dating sites. So it's really amazing. All of the things that are happening out there in the flat earth movement, I believe that more Christians are converting to the flat earth than any other time in history.

I've spent lots of hours talking to a lot of flat earthers became friends with a lot of them. Some of them are really awesome people. But I really do believe that more are converting to flat earth than any other time in history right now.

They're having flat earth conferences. And so these are getting bigger and bigger. There are literally thousands of people that show up to these different conferences. You guys might have heard of my ad Mike Hughes.

He actually flew a rocket in the name of flat earth. Now. I don't believe he was actually a flat earther. I think he was using it as a promotional thing. He actually launched a rocket twice. The second time he didn't survive it and basically his thing was he always said that he was going to go up and show that.

The earth was flat and not round again. He didn't survive the the second launch. So tonight since I'm a media producer, I'm gonna talk at you a little bit. But I promised you that I would not bore you.

So from time to time. I'm gonna drop into some media clips. From our documentary and so one of the things that we did when we first began this project is we wanted to see what the people Out on the street.

We're thinking about the flat earth. Many people these days are starting to believe that the earth is flat. What do you think about that? That's still a thing.

It's round. You keep going around and around and around man.

It's looks pretty flat to me, but I think it's round Saturn's round Jupiter round. Everything else is round. I was actually reading something the other day that said the earth is in a donut shape. And the moon is a coffee cup, right?

You never know. It could be flat. I think that it's whatever they tell us.

Okay, whatever they tell us. Yeah, so but there's some people that say round some that say flat. What do you think?

I think unless we actually go out there and explore it for ourselves There's no way that we could actually know what it is. No, I don't think they're at the flat. You think it's round. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, you're right.

I guess it's round. Really I just convinced you just like that. There's a lot of compelling evidence that the possibility that the earth is flat. While in other cases the earth is actually round and the Bible doesn't really talk about the earth being round.

What shape do you think the earth is. Triangle I.

Feel like that'd be a tough sell.

I bet it's not as tough as you would think it would be. I don't know.

I think the earth is definitely round for people that believe the earth is flat. Maybe that's true.

It wouldn't be the two different shapes at the same time though. Is that what you're saying? I don't know. I mean our.

Personal beliefs create our realities. I guess so I think it can kind of be both at the same time. So do you know anybody who does believe in the flat? Yes, one of my good friends is a flat-earther. Yes.

No, I don't have any friends. Tons of boys at my school. Yeah, definitely. There's people who say they do. I think it's definitely a cultural trend. Kind of caught me by surprise when I found out but yeah.

Why do they become so passionate about it almost seems like they become evangelist of the father.

It's like it's an anti kind of movement. A lot of people now are just starting to identify in an idea. Or a party versus themselves. Those people need to find hobbies.

He's using your own observations, why do you think the earth is round? Well, I can.

Got me right there. Why the earth is round? Very hard to explain that I don't. My own senses. Nothing. I've been told.

I.

Would say just from the pull of gravity. And then also you look at the day-night cycle to the rest of the world until they show evidence. That's what I will actually start looking into. Saying the same thing about people who believe that the earth is round.

We've been given these facts. To say the earth is flat is basically rejecting all the scientific evidence that we've compiled.

Why do you think that young younger?

People are the ones that are having a harder time accepting these things. Where do you look next for young people to be? You know upset kind of overthrow the man, you know overthrow the machine is going to be at the government.

And I think that's where a lot of this. These tensions and these questions kind of raised from.

So there you go there we were out on the streets. Of course, you're seeing probably about a tenth of the interviews that we did things that really hit us was one that just about everybody. That we interviewed knew somebody.

That believed in the flat earth. The other thing that really hit us was as you saw when we asked round earthers. To support why the earth was round a lot of them couldn't come up with evidence based on their own.

Of why the earth was round and so those were some interesting points to us. Well now what it really comes down to the most important thing is what does the Bible say about it? Many people these days are starting to there we go.

What does the Bible say? Very important as Christians, right? The Bible should be the very first authority in our lives, right? And so as we've talked to flat earthers, we've heard this statement over and over again.

The Bible from cover to cover is a flat earth book. I've also heard this there are over 200 verses that clearly state that the earth is stationary flat and enclosed and. So basically what I want to do for the next I don't know 15 minutes or so is I would love to go through and Make their case for them and talk about what the Bible says.

So here's a model. We talked to a lot of flat earthers. And basically, this is the flat earth model that I think a lot of them propose. And so you'll notice that we've got a disc shape earth. We've got The dome that's over the top.

We've got the great deep you'll see that there's pillars all holding up the earth. You can see the firmament is a hard firmament that is around the earth. And then God's in his heaven which is above the earth and it's surrounded by water.

And so these are some of the things that they talk about when they look at the scripture. So let's look at some of the scriptures that they use for that and let me make their case for them for just a minute.

By the way when we did this in our documentary. Documentary we ran this past a few of the different flat earthers that we had been working with we let them make changes. We let them kind of make their case and basically they came away and said that they felt like we had represented them.

Fairly well with the biblical case for the flat earth. So let's run through those real quick. So basically isaiah 40 22, of course is the one that everybody goes to. It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers that stretches out the heavens as a curtain.

And spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. Okay, so the first thing that they say is that circle is a flat disc it's not a sphere. Okay. Um, here's another one that they say that there's ends to the earth.

Dome whom I have taken from the ends of the earth. Okay, so that's isaiah 41 9. So they would say that there are ends, uh on that disc. Okay, one of the other things that they say is that the earth is stable it's not moving through uh space.

It's not spinning on an axis, but it's actually stable. And it's on pillars and you'll see here in first chronicles 16 30 that it says that it be not moved. Okay. Here's another one when it's talking about the foundations of the earth job 38 4.

Where was thou when I laid the foundations of the of the earth? Okay, here's one for the pillars first samuel 2 8 for the pillars of the earth are the lords. Okay, here's a verse for the underworld. And no man in heaven nor on earth neither under the earth was able to open the book.

So basically they make the case that there is an underworld, uh in between uh, the disc in the pillars that it's on. Well, a big part of the flat earth is the philip, uh the firmament. Uh, genesis 1 6 through 8 and god said let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters.

And let it divide the waters from the waters and god made the firmament. And divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament and it was so. And god called the firmament heaven and the evening and the morning were the second day.

And god said let there be lights in the firmament Of the heaven to divide the day from the night and let them be for signs and for seasons. And for days and years and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.

And it was so. Now what flat earthers say is that that word firmament which is rakia in hebrew uh means to pound out. And so basically what the the case that they make is that that dome is actually made out of a possible hard material.

And so basically, uh, that's the idea is that the firmament is a hard material that was pounded out. Uh and to back up that idea they use job 37 18. Hast thou with him spread out the sky which is strong and as a as a molten looking glass.

Okay, so could that be a hard material that composes the firmament? Okay, and then of course god's throne he made darkness his secret place his pavilion round about him were dark waters. And thick clouds of the sky.

So in the flat earth model, um god's uh throne Uh is surrounded by water and is above the firmament. So that very quickly. Are some of the verses that they use to talk about the stationary earth the flat earth the earth being on pillars and so again, this is kind of a visual representation of what we ran past a bunch of flat earthers and they seem To like this diagram and say that uh, this pretty well represented what they what they believed.

So now here's the question That really got us as we were working on this documentary is. We came to find that the flat earthers were incredibly passionate About this flat earth. I mean they are passionate about it.

And at first we didn't know why it was so important. And then finally one day I was talking to one of the flat earthers and uh, they helped me to understand by the way I think it's very important whenever you're proposing an idea that you understand your opposition's idea.

So well that you can articulate it and that you can say why it's important. Here's why the flat earth I believe is important to so many flat earthers. Second thessalonians 2 11. And for this cause god shall send them strong delusion.

That they should believe a lie. And so as I interfaced with hundreds of flat earthers I began to realize that they believed that the strong delusion was that the earth was a sphere. And they believed that that had its roots in satanic lies stretching back all through history and to accept.

The round earth was actually to accept these lies and that it was actually that delusion that was talked about in second thessalonians 2 11. And that's why I believe that many flat earthers are so passionate about it.

Now one of the things that I heard from many flat earthers as I was talking to them is literal. You've got to take the bible literally matter of fact, I would even say that that's one of their strengths is that they are Uh saying that they are willing to take the whole bible absolutely literally.

But here's my question. Could it be that their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness? Now listen, i'm a young earth creationist. I believe in the account of genesis. I believe in the plain meaning of genesis.

But is the bible always literal? Well, you know I used to say that when I first became a creationist. Is that I believe in the literal creation and I believe that the bible is literal. Well, yeah, I think sometimes it is being literal but other times when it's not.

Here's john 15 5 I am the vine ye are the branches. He that abideth in me and I in him the same bringeth forth much fruit for without me ye can do nothing. Well, is jesus literally a vine? Are we literally branches?

Do we literally have fruit? I mean fruit that comes out of us. No, I think everybody Would agree that that's not literal. God's painting a picture for us. How about this john 10 9. I am the door by me if any man enter in he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture.

Well, is jesus actually? Literally a door. No, I don't think it's literal there. I think again. He's making a word picture for us. How about this one job 26 7 is this literal? He stretches out the north over the empty place.

And hangeth the earth upon nothing. Well, wow if that's literal. How does that work with the pillars? Huh, so here's the question is the bible always literal. Can we take it absolutely literal? Well, are there some rules?

And the answer is Yes. We have to follow rules about when we take the bible literally. And when we realize that maybe it's a word picture or being metaphorical, right? So it's very important. In fact, it's important to understand that the bible has many different literary styles.

There's historical narratives like genesis or exodus. Where god is telling us the story of a historic event and how it took place. There's statutory passages. There's passages where god is giving out the law.

And it's written kind of like a legal document. There's genealogies where god is telling us about the different generations and who they were. There's prophecies and in those prophecies. Sometimes it seems like it's getting very metaphorical.

There's also sections of the bible that have poetry. And again, we see word pictures and lots of metaphors being used. When he's writing about the poetry Jesus told parables, right? They were stories with a truth that was tied to a story.

That's important to understand. And there's also epistles, right? And so we've got to realize what part of the bible are we reading? Are we reading a historical narrative? Are we reading poetry? Are we reading a parable?

It's really important that we understand which we're uh, which we're reading. And that brings me back to second timothy uh 215 Study to show thyself approved unto god a workman that needeth not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.

So it's very important to to understand what god was commuting to. Communicating to us when we read the word and it's important to remember those different literary styles. Now when we did our documentary, uh, we said that it's really important that we have An expert to help us with us with with the documentary and so we went to dr. Stephen boyd.

Uh, and he's a hebrew expert and dr Boyd is also a well-known a hebrew scholar and professor of bible and theology. And so we went to him and asked him to help us as we looked at some of these verses.

So i'm going to run back through these real quick. Isaiah 40 22 it is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth. Well, a lot of people have pointed out that that circle means a circle and it's true according to dr. Boyd it does mean a circle um.

Uh, but he points out that basically, uh god's perspective. Is a circle um, it's also highly Metaphorical when you look at this passage, it talks about the circle of the earth, but check it out. It also talks about grasshoppers that the inhabitants are like grasshoppers.

The heavens are a curtain. And he spreads them out like a tent. And so we've got to realize that there's metaphorical language going on there. God is not speaking literal. He's painting word pictures for us.

Also, uh, dr. Boyd says that this passage is really talking to the greatness of god. It's him that's sitting upon the circle of the earth. And to him we're like grasshoppers. He stretched out the heavens and spreadeth them out.

It's the greatness of god. And that's what he says that passage is really about. Okay, how about the ends of the earth? Well. Are there really ends to the earth or is it that god is trying to communicate that there was remote places?

To whom I have taken the ends of the earth and called from the chief men thereof. I think he's talking about how he took it to remote places. Matter of fact check out this scripture. Psalm 22 27 says all the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the lord.

You know, I don't think it's talking about literal ends here. It's talking about how it was going to the remote places of the world. It was going all around the world. All right, how about the scripture that said let it not be moved.

First chronicle says that it's not moved. Well, this comes from a heavy heavily metaphorical passage. Uh itself as a matter of fact when it says that it's not moved. It means that it's being stable. It's established.

It doesn't mean that the earth is not moving. Matter of fact, here's a verse a couple. Uh, A couple verses down it says then shall the trees trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the lord. Well are trees literally singing?

No.

I think it's a metaphorical passage. God is painting a picture in these passages. All right. How about the pillars of the earth? Well again, I think he's saying that the earth is established right that god has established the earth.

I don't think it's talking about literal pillars. Matter of fact again, it looks highly uh metaphorical matter of fact just a couple verses before that we read. There is none holy as the lord for there is none beside thee neither.

Is there any rock like our god? Is god literally a rock? Okay, the firmament remember that the flat earthers want to Translate firmament as to pound out. Okay, they say the word rakia is to pound out.

But according to dr. Boyd, he says this. The hebrew noun rakia comes from the verb raka which means to spread out. So rakia simply means expanse but using an uncalled for. Derivation of rakia from the verb Rika, which means to pound flat flat earthers make the case that god formed the firmament out of a hard material.

Maybe similar to bronze. But again, the actual word is rakia used in this passage, which simply means an expanse. And that expanse is called heaven shemayim which can refer to our atmosphere the place where the stars exist in god's dwelling place.

So the concept of the firmament portrayed in the flat earth model isn't what we find in the scriptures. Well, the heavens declare the glory of god and the firmament show his handiwork. And again, it's showing god's glory his greatness.

As a matter of fact when I began this project one of the things that I began to realize Is that the universe is never ending it just keeps going and going and going. It's so big that we as humans don't even understand it.

When I look at that I say that the heavens declare declare the glory of god. And yet if we take that universe We reduce it down to a little disc. A little flat earth to me. It takes away some of the glory of god.

Well, I said that the flat earthers said that there's 200 plus flat earth verses. We tried to pick the best to represent their case. There's many verses that said similar things to the ones we said. But when we began to look at this list of 200 bible verses We began to realize that most of them really didn't have anything to do with the flat earth at all.

As a matter of fact, check out this one right here. Be still and know that I am god and they use that verse to show that the earth is unmovable and on pillars. And as you can see It really doesn't have a lot to do with the flat earth when you see it in context.

Again, it just brings us back to second timothy study to show thyself approved to god. A workman that needeth not be ashamed rightly. Dividing the word of truth. I think it's super important that when we handle god's word we try and realize.

What is he communicating to us? And when we may uh take Verses literal that are not meant to be literal we begin to talk about trees that sing. Rivers that clap their hands that god is a rock. Jesus is a vine.

We are branches we can get into trouble that way. And I guess our biggest concern is i'm getting to be an older guy and through my life I've seen movements that on the outside look very biblical. They use the bible and yet the way that they interpret the scriptures actually lead you to some very wrong heresies.

I saw that with the end of the earth proclamations that were being made. I've seen that with other cultic groups. They use the bible and people read the word and they say wow. This is such a biblical movement, but in reality, it's actually taking them away from the truth of the word.

After all the study i've done. I kind of believe that this is where the flat earth is at. I truly believe that they're using a lot of scripture. It sounds so noble to say that you've got to take god's word literally.

But in the end, I think it's deceiving many people as to what the bible has to say. Well, let's turn from scripture and talk about god's word and god's world. Should god's word and god's world be in harmony?

Yeah, they should be in total harmony with each other. Because god created both the word and the world and what that means is that we should be able to go out. And investigate the world and see that it's right in harmony with god's word and so we can go out and explore.

Here's some favorite verses. I have nehemiah 6 9 thou even thou art lord alone. Thou has made the heaven the heaven of heavens with all their hosts the earth and all things that are therein. The seas and all that is therein and thou preservest them all and the host of heaven worshipeth thee.

So we can go out and explore creation and it should lead us to worship the creator. Check out proverbs 25 2 it is the glory of god to conceal a thing. But the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

I think god is well pleased when we go out and search his creation. And we can learn truths about the creator from his creation. So both the bible and the scriptures. I'm, sorry, both the scriptures and the world have to be in harmony with each other because they've got the same author Romans 1 20 for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen.

Being understood by the things that are made even his eternal power and godhead. So again, we can go out and search creation and we can find out truths about the creator. So I think it's not wrong for us to search and learn what we see from exploring the world.

Scientific Evidence, Curvature, and the Bedford Level Experiment

Well as we made this documentary, um, we asked dr Danny faulkner an astronomer from answers in genesis to join us and uh, basically i'm gonna have some uh clips from Dr. Faulkner as we go along. We're grateful for dr. Faulkner's help.

Matter of fact, he's written a book recently about the flat earth and he's really uh, The expert on tackling this flat earth thing. And so that's why we wanted to have him as part of the uh, the documentary that we were making.

Now when it comes to the flat earth I would say that one of the best proofs for the flat earth was first proposed by this guy samuel rowbottom. And basically he did an experiment called the bedford level experiment and basically what he did.

Was he went out to a very straight very flat stretch of river? And basically what he decided is that he was going to have a friend in a rowboat go out with the flag. And his friend out went out six miles, uh from where he was and then he used a glass to to be able to see him and his thought was.

If the earth was round the curve he should be on the other side of the curve. And he shouldn't be able to see his friend in the rowboat. However, if it was flat. He should be able to see him and so this is an incredible experiment because uh, It should actually end that uh, if there was a curve he shouldn't have been able to see his friend.

If you go a mile you get a drop of curvature of eight inches. So if you mount a telescope eight inches above the surface of the water then in a mile's distance It would be tangent to the earth's surface and then it would start to fall away beyond that.

And each mile it's eight inches squared. So after two miles, it would be uh, four times eight. Which is 32 inches a little less than three feet and then it would be six feet. Three miles and so forth by the time you get out to five miles six miles the curvature would be you know.

Close to 20 feet or so.

Thank you. Dr. Faulkner So rowbottom wanted to test that idea.

Any reasons that if the earth is curved he should not see the boat? He shouldn't see the person in the boat. He shouldn't even see the mast with the flag on it. Well, lo and behold he sees the mast the flag the boat the person he sees every bit of it.

So here's the question was why was he able to see it? I mean if he saw the rowboat six miles away and the curve wasn't blocking it. Was he right? Was he at earth actually flat? Well when we began to make this documentary we decided to do our own uh, Bedford level experiment.

This is part of the columbia river at Astoria before the river goes into the pacific ocean. And this area right here way across from uh, Just a little to my right where there's a foundation and a bridge and such all the way to where Nearly the river goes in is 6 .8 miles.

Now what's special about that? Well at 6 .8 miles. That's a little longer than they actually did for the Bedford level experiment. That's right I think what i'll do is i'll go up to the top of the rocks.