Equipping Eve: Phil Johnson Interview (Part 1)

The Need for Biblical Discernment in Women’s Ministry

Is the Church today doing everything it can to provide women a firm foundation of truth in Christ Jesus? Well, it's true, there's no shortage of candy-coated Bible studies, potluck fellowships available to ladies.

But beyond Sunday morning, are Christian women being properly equipped to stand against the same deceptions that even enticed Eve in the Garden? In an attempt to address the need for trustworthy, biblical resources for women, No Compromise Radio is happy to introduce Equipping Eve, a ladies-only radio show that seeks to equip women with fruits of truth in an age that's ripe with deception.

My name is Mike Abendroth and I'm pleased to introduce your host, Erin Benzinger, a friend of No Compromise Radio and a woman who wants to see other women equipped with a love for and a knowledge of the truth of God's Word.

Well, hello ladies and welcome to Equipping Eve, the show that seeks to equip you with fruits of truth from God's Word so that we can stand strong and firm on that truth in an age of deception. Unfortunately, the deception is growing and, ladies, it is disguising itself as Christian.

It uses Christian words, Christian lingo, it uses Bible verses, and it sounds pretty good. Usually it gives you the warm fuzzies, makes you feel very spiritual, makes you feel very religious, like you are doing the right thing.

But we know, and what we love to talk about here, is that we must test all things against Scripture, against God's Word. It is the plumb line of truth. So even though something sounds good, we need to test it against God's Word.

It is the only objective truth that we can know. And so I encourage you to test all things against Scripture. That includes your sermons on Sunday morning, that includes the sermons that you podcast, and that includes this show as well and any other shows you may listen to.

I'm excited you're listening, but test me against God's Word as well, because I too am under the authority of God and His Word, as are any other teachers you listen to and your pastor, etc., etc. So ladies, dig into that Word, know God's Word backward and forward because, well, there may be a time coming when you can't possess a physical copy of it, but aside from that, if we hide God's Word in our heart, that is just part of our spiritual growth, isn't it?

And when we are so consumed with what His Word says and it is just in us and constantly mulling around in our brains, that's how we continue to grow in holiness. God's Word is transforming, and we love it.

Well, here's something that's not so transforming, but it sounds a little like Joel Osteen, sing and rejoice, fortune is smiling on you. Hey, that sounds just like something Joel Osteen might say before busting into some hymn or something in his stadium on a Sunday morning, but that actually came out of a fortune cookie.

So there you go. I have a theory that Joel Osteen composes, is that the right word? Maybe not. But anyway, he writes his sermons based on fortune cookies. Fortune is smiling on you, sing and rejoice. Okay.

So, ladies, have I said my name is Erin Benziger? I don't know that I said that. So if you're tuning in for the first time, welcome to Equipping Eve, and I am your host, Erin Benziger. Check us out on Facebook, Twitter, that's at equippingeve .org or .com.

You can email me there. I love to hear from you. I will try to email you back as quickly as I can, but I love to hear your notes. I love to hear your thoughts, your questions. So please reach out, contact me however you prefer, Twitter, Facebook, email, etc.

Okay. So today, I actually have a treat for you today and next show that I'm pretty excited about. But before we get to that, the really good stuff, I thought I would share with you part of an article that just is really, really helpful.

And I don't know, some of you may have seen this a few weeks back. It's from a website, a blog called womenundergrace .com. This was published back in August of 2015, early August of 2015. And there were, I believe it was a two-part article.

And it's titled Responding with Grace When Emotionalism Trumps Discernment. And these were really helpful articles, I thought, written by a fellow woman. And so that just helps. It helps us know that the perspective that the writer is coming from is the same perspective that we are coming from as women.

We as women are not exonerated from knowing the good, core, wonderful doctrines of scripture. We are not exempt from discernment and being able to discern truth from error and true from almost true. We need to know these things as well.

But we do react to things differently. We are made differently. God made men and women differently. And he did that not only physically but also mentally, emotionally, etc. Which is why, ladies, it is so vital for us to be grounded in the truth of God's word because we can be led astray.

Now don't get me wrong, men can too. There are plenty of male false teachers out there. There are plenty of men who are deceived, self-deceived, or deceived by these false teachers. I'm not saying that just because you're a woman you're totally gullible and you're just going to climb up the crazy tree.

But we need to be mindful of the fact that, for example, we react with our emotions perhaps a little more than our male counterparts might. And so that's why these articles were so helpful. So I thought I would just read part one of this article, Responding with Grace When Emotionalism Trumps Discernment.

And the author writes, Women are emotional creatures, and while this makes them excellent caregivers and confidants, there can be a tendency among some in the church, men not excluded, toward emotionalism, a particular reaction towards the things of God in which the standard of what is true or false is based purely on emotional experiences.

In other words, if something makes one feel good or positive, it is deemed as true. And likewise, if something makes one feel bad or negative, it is deemed as false. The problem with this is it supplants the authority of the scriptures with the unstable, fallible human sentiment.

The logical implication, of course, is it results in relativism. If a reaction or experience is the standard of truth, that standard is different for everyone as people respond in myriad ways to various situations.

Thus, there is no absolute governing principle enabling one to discern truth from error. I wish I had written that paragraph, because I think it's fantastic. And it totally hits the nail on the head. And we've talked about this over and over again for the life of Equipping Eve, anyway.

Just the tendency of evangelicalism today, and this is not limited to women. You see this coming from the mega pastors. That really, it's just, hey, if it makes you feel good, then it's true. Oftentimes, these teachings, these spiritual formation teachings that teach you to sit in the silence and listen for a voice and a warm, fuzzy feeling, and if it feels good, then it's from God.

Or if the voice you hear says something nice, it's from God. But if it's negative, well, that's not God. Well, that doesn't make any sense. Because when we read the Bible, we don't always get a warm fuzzy, do we?

We're convicted of our sin a lot of times. Well, that may not make us feel happy and wonderful, but it's still growing us spiritually, and it's vital to our spiritual growth and vital to our spiritual life.

And so I love what the author is saying here in the way that she says it. She goes on, she says, to be sure, emotions and emotionalism are not the same, though they are related. Emotions are heartfelt reactions to positive or negative circumstances and can be subjugated to mood, personality, or events.

These are natural, God-given characteristics of humans, and though they can certainly evoke sinful reactions, they are not sinful in and of themselves. Emotionalism, on the other hand, at least in the context of the church, is when those emotions are believed to dictate or define rather than be subject to the truth.

That is so key. Emotionalism is when your emotions are believed to dictate or define rather than be subject to the truth. Because of this, emotionalism and discernment tend to be at odds with each other as the former is devoid of truth while the latter is reliant upon it.

And that is so key. She goes on. Emotionalism simply says we are to love, we aren't to judge. She said that in the paragraph earlier. Emotionalism says we are to love. Society has conditioned us to believe that love is accepting of everything unconditionally, regardless of what something contradicts.

To the emotionalist, love is only a positive feeling that can include no negative connotations. Therefore, calling out false doctrine and heretics and gently rebuking sin is seen as unloving and antithetical to Christianity.

But discernment says love is not devoid of truth. She lists 1 John 3 .18, 2 John 1, 3 John 1, 1 Peter 1 .22. And she goes on and says, do you see the difference? Emotionalism not only thwarts scriptural authority, it also tends to take a simplistic instead of a systematic approach when dealing with theological concepts.

Rather than looking at how a concept is presented through the scriptures to formulate sound doctrine, it looks at a very small section and formulates a wrong understanding of that topic, then bases every argument presented off of that narrow, erroneous view.

The result is shallow, unbiblical argumentation. On the contrary, discernment informed by truth acknowledges the narrower ideas of a concept as parts of a whole, embracing the fuller, broader view of the entirety of the scriptures, and the result is doctrine that is consistent throughout and does not contradict.

Anyway, ladies, I commend these articles to you. I will link to them at the Equipping Eve blog, Responding with Grace When Emotionalism Trumps Discernment, from the Women Under Grace blog. So thank you for that to the author that these are good resources, good ways to think about these truths and these ideas, and I love how she differentiated between emotions and emotionalism, and that's so key.

That is definitely so key today. So I hope you will go to equippingeve .com, and this will be under the resources post for this episode. You'll want to check out those articles and read them in their entirety.

Phil Johnson on Women’s Ministry, Discernment, and the Gospel

So ladies, I have a treat for you today. I was out in California a few weeks ago and had the opportunity to meet with and interview Phil Johnson. Now, many of you are familiar with Phil's ministry and his preaching.

I'm certain of that. Phil is the executive director of Grace to You, which is the radio and really the print ministry as well of John MacArthur, who pastors Grace Community Church out there in Southern California, and Phil also co-pastors Grace Life there at Grace Community Church, and so you can catch the podcast of Grace Life.

He co-pastors with Mike Riccardi, who is also an excellent preacher, and you can listen to their sermons from week to week, and you will be blessed and you will be challenged by Phil's teaching. I have been so blessed and encouraged by Phil's ministry.

So I met Phil for the first time a few years ago and have had the opportunity to speak with him several times now, and whether via email or in person, several times, and he's just such a wonderful person to talk to.

He's super nice and super smart, and just really easy to talk to and ask questions of, and he's just a treasure trove of knowledge, and I love it. And so I'm very thankful to Phil for giving some of his time while I was out there visiting, and I happened to record the conversation, record the interview.

And so what you are going to hear for the rest of this show will be part of that interview with Phil Johnson, and then next show, you will hear the rest of that interview. So I was blessed enough to be able to have an extra long lunch break between my classes, and so I was able to drive out to the Grace TU offices and spend about an hour or so just chit chatting with Phil, and it was great.

And we talked about women's ministries, and we talked about issues of discernment, and just kind of a potpourri of different topics. So I'm going to turn it over to that interview with Phil, and ladies, I hope you enjoy.

Don't turn off your podcast. You're going to love the next 20 minutes or so. I am here with Phil Johnson. Phil, thanks for joining us on Equipping Eve. Thanks for having me. It's an honor and a privilege to have you here to discuss some issues of women's ministry and just some of the things that women wonder about.

It's kind of a hot-button issue continually in the church, this issue of women's ministry, and I know that my listeners would appreciate your views on a few things, if you don't mind. Sure. So, I don't know, from my perspective, I think I see women's ministry as perhaps one of the most flourishing and busiest ministries in a lot of churches, but yet we see that so many of them are not doctrinally sound.

They're not really built on that strong biblical foundation. Do you think this is a matter of pastors and elders not paying attention to what's going on in the women's ministries? What can we do about this?

It's partly that. It is partly that. I think just as a matter of convenience and time and just to avoid the potential of problems, pastors tend to turn women's ministry over to one woman who may be a gifted speaker, but not necessarily a gifted Bible teacher or theologian, and then they back away.

Because the other half of it is it's a political problem. It is simply a political problem in the church for the pastor if he ever has to step in and correct or deal with anything. I mean, you know this because you write a discernment blog, and these days especially, things tend to be emotionally driven.

And we're not just talking about women's ministries here. I mean, this is the way the news comes across even. People think about things in emotional rather than rational terms. How does this make you feel?

I was listening last week to the news and in the wake of a national tragedy that occurred, that shooting where some military people were killed by a terrorist, and the reporter, in fact, it was more than one reporter.

I heard this repeatedly over two days' time. Reporters who were asking people close to the situation, they weren't asking for facts. They weren't trying to discover the details of what happened. The questions had to do with how did this make you feel?

What were you thinking about? People are very feelings-based these days. And of course, women's ministry would be one of the areas where that's taken, I think, almost to an extreme. Because women do like to discuss their feelings.

How do you feel about this and all of that? And so rational content sometimes takes second place. Plus, as you know, because you write a discernment blog, if you critique anything, it could be the worst possible heresy.

If it happens to come from the pen of an author that has become somehow beloved or respected or whatever, you're the bad guy for doing the critique, regardless of what the issues are. They like Sarah Young's book for whatever reason.

And if you say, this is very bizarre to publish a book that purports to be the words of Jesus, but came out of the imagination of a woman, people get angry about that. And I think a lot of pastors would just prefer to avoid the hassle.

And that's not to their credit. Sometimes you have to take the lumps that go with speaking the truth. People don't necessarily love the truth or want to hear it. And even Christians sometimes would prefer to hear things softened or less harsh or whatever.

And because women's ministry tends to be kind of volatile in that way, and the other factor in the church today is, I've given messages at our Shepherds Conference about the fad-driven church. One of the things that drives the evangelical movement today is people love fads.

They like to know what's stylish. They want to know what the next thing is going to be, and they want to jump on the bandwagon. So whatever's popular is what you're going to get pressure as a pastor to do in your church.

When Rick Warren's book, 40 Days of Purpose, or whatever it was, was popular, there were even people at Grace Church who sat under John MacArthur's teaching regularly, who would ask the elders, why aren't we reading this book?

Why don't we do this? Because it was popular, and they assumed anyone who's a Christian ought to be reading this. And as a pastor, it's very difficult to deal with and resist the pressure to follow whatever the fad is.

And some of the fads in women's ministry, as you suggested, are pretty bad.

So it's easier to just step back and let whoever is in charge of women's ministries take hold of that and just...

The Downgrade of the Evangelical Movement

Reaping the fruits of, I think, a 30 or 40 year decline where it started out with things in the evangelical movement were simply superficial, you know, not a lot of doctrine. The teaching tended to be about relationships and success and, you know, not biblical doctrine.

And it wasn't that anyone rejected sound doctrine. It's just that they didn't have the taste to hear it all the time, and they'd rather talk about relationships and parenting and, you know, things like that, that tended to get into extra biblical things or you could avoid doctrine altogether, talking about these things.

And so now you have a generation of people who grew up in the church who were never taught even the fundamental issues of Christian doctrine. And so they don't, in the first place, they don't see the importance of it.

In the second place, they don't really, they aren't grounded well enough to know what's sound and what's not. They don't have a tolerance for any kind of critical analysis. And so the easiest thing to do is simply to float downstream with the trends, and the trends these days are headed in a bad direction.

Now let's say you have a pastor who, for the most part, is a biblically sound pastor, and he is preaching the word faithfully from the pulpit, but has still stepped back from the women's ministries, and things such as Beth Moore or Priscilla Shire are creeping in there, and they know it, but are stepping back and choosing not to take part in that.

I mean, if we have, the role of women, by and large, is to raise our children, you know, to raise godly children. That's one of the many roles of women. So, but if women are not engaged in sound Bible study, now we have a problem because the children are suffering as well.

And those are, that's the next generation. How do you resolve that?

Well, the pastor who does that, it's hard to read that as anything other than a lack of courage. You know, why would someone who understands the importance of sound doctrine, and knows what sound doctrine is, just look the other way when people are teaching, you know, Beth Moore, who gets her own private revelations from God, or, you know, any of those things.

And the only reason, the only reasonable explanation for it is they just don't want the hassle. They don't want what they know is going to be a strong pushback from, you know, whatever group is into that or teaching it.

And they don't want to, it's just easier, again, to float along with the trends. And I see that as probably a lack of courage. And the only way to resolve it is to raise up a generation of church leaders who have courage.

And I think that's going to be a remnant, not the mainstream. I don't think we will ever see the bulk of today's evangelical churches ever turn around and head the right direction. I mean, you can see this in church history.

When there's a period of decline, it's always a remnant that comes out of that and is, remains faithful to the gospel. There's not any instance I can think of in church history where a movement that has begun down the path of apostasy has ever actually turned around and fully recovered.

So, what then do you see as the primary dangers if we have women who are not engaged in doctrinally sound Bible study? Even if we step away from the Beth Mores and the Sarayons and say we step into, I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but maybe something that isn't necessarily unbiblical, isn't necessarily wrong in its content, but it's very thematic.

You know, you mentioned marriage and things like that. And women tend to gravitate, I think, toward these theme-based Bible studies. What is the danger of that, or is there a danger in that type of study as opposed to walking through Scripture verse by verse, even not just on Sunday morning, but in a Bible study?

What do you think is a better method of study? Well, I think it's okay.

I think it's okay to talk about relationships and parenting and things like that in reasonable doses, because those things do have to do with the practical aspects of Christian living. But if it's not surrounded by and undergirded by a thorough understanding of even the basic doctrines, justification by faith, what is the gospel?

You ask the typical evangelical today to give you a summary account of gospel truth, and they're not capable of doing it. So that's the danger. We get away from the gospel, following these other things, and start to think that these things somehow are the real heart of the issue.

I mean, that happens with a host of things, even political issues, good issues like abortion. The church for 30 years has been, the evangelical movement has been pretty active in trying to overturn abortion as a so-called right.

It hasn't made a lot of progress at it, and it's a good goal. I hate abortion. I hate the murder of children. It's one of the signs that our culture is basically paganized and evil at its core. But that's not the primary calling of the church to reform the legislation of our country.

Our primary calling is to preach the gospel, and I think evangelicals have gotten away from that, which is ironic if you think about it, because the name evangelical means it has to do with the gospel, the gospel truth.

My identity is defined by the gospel. That's what makes me an evangelical. And the sad thing is that the majority of people who identify themselves as evangelicals and would say they're part of the evangelical movement, the majority of them really aren't anchored in the gospel at all.

So evangelicals aren't really evangelical anymore, and that's a huge part of the problem. And of course, it affects women's ministries and all that, but that's more of a symptom than it is the cause, because you could talk about men's ministry and you'd say pretty much the same thing.

Men's ministry is different because the fads are different, but they're just as far removed from the gospel as typical women's ministry. And so it goes really back to the heart of what evangelicals believe and profess and actually teach.

Persecution, Purification, and the Remnant Church

So then that takes me on a trajectory here, kind of away from women's ministry proper. As you mentioned before, that you don't think that the church, we're never going to see the majority of churches rise up against some of these things.

So do you see that this era, at least in our Western society, is probably going to undergo a purifying and a purging of the church? Because as you say, we've gotten away from the gospel and evangelicals.

Yeah, I hope so.

Some of the things that concern us most deeply, actually, you can see the hand of providence in them working to purify the church. We're concerned now in the wake of recent Supreme Court decisions and all that, we face a new era of persecution.

And I think that's undoubtedly going to be the case. And none of us wants persecution. But if you look back through church history, you discover that persecution has never really been bad for either church growth or the purity of the church.

It's when Christians think they can just rest at ease that the church declines. When there's persecution, like what we're getting into today, it tends to drive away people who are only nominal Christians, who really don't truly love Christ.

They don't want the persecution. It's no longer easy respectability to identify with the church. And so I think you're going to see a decline in numbers in terms of church membership, but you'll see a great rise in, at least I hope, a great rise in faithfulness and purity among those who are left when it's all over, the remnant.

Do you think we'll start to see, I've noticed kind of a silence among some of the megachurch pastors, even maybe some of the evangelical leaders in the wake of the Supreme Court decision, which was not my intention in this discussion, but while we're here, do you hope, is it your hope, or do you think that we'll see maybe some people starting to realize that their silence must mean something in the wake of this?

Will that be part of this purification? Because we still have some who cling to some of these church leaders who maybe aren't the best.

My expectation is that in the wake of this Supreme Court decision basically legalizing and mandating same-sex marriage, you're going to see a large number of people who we regarded maybe as at least respectable church leaders now sort of gradually, but as quickly as possible, shifting to the idea that, look, we shouldn't make this an issue.

Let's not be too radical in our opposition to homosexuality. You're already seeing the rhetoric, which is ironic to me. In the wake of a decision like this, a lot of rhetoric from high-profile Christian leaders scolding Christians for using words like injustice, our former injustice towards the homosexual community.

My question is, what would these people point to on a wide-scale basis as proof that we are guilty of perpetrating some injustice against the homosexual community? Because we say this is a sinful lifestyle?

So now are we obligated to stop saying that? And I think you're going to find a surprising and shocking number of church leaders who we've always deemed as respectable and fairly faithful and all that, who are going to sort of back away and say, yeah, I don't think we need to say this is sinful.

The desire isn't. The people are already saying it's not sinful to have this desire. It's only sinful to do the behavior, which flatly contradicts what Jesus said. But you're seeing it, and it's becoming more and more common to have this pressure from the top down in the evangelical movement for us to soften our rhetoric and back away from this issue and let the world go the way it wants to go.

And the effect of that, of course, is going to be not to increase the church's influence in the world, but to diminish it. But as I said, I think that's going to separate the remnant from the vast majority of false professors who now populate the typical evangelical church.

Well, and where does that stop then, too? If we say that, well, it's okay then for same-sex marriage or same-sex desires, and that's okay, and what's true for you doesn't have to be true for me. If Christianity then acquiesces to that, don't we logically then have to move even to say murder?

I mean, well, if that's okay for you, then who am I to say anything about that?

Obviously, if logic played a role in it, then no one would have ever concluded that in the first place. But the fact is, if we've come this far, where there are people who claim to believe the Bible who really aren't sure whether we should say homosexual desire is sinful, then we've already gone, I think, past the point of no return.

I don't see any example from church history that would lead me to be hopeful that a movement that's gone that far towards worldliness and embracing worldly values could ever recover on a large scale. Like I said, I think a faithful remnant will come out of that, but the movement itself is lost.

But I was saying that 15 years ago. I thought the evangelical movement was lost even then. The proof that I was right 15 years ago is suddenly looming large before our eyes, and yet still you have influential Christian leaders who are trying to say, wait a minute, let's not be too hasty here.

Why the Church Chases Respectability Instead of Faithfulness

So does that then ultimately come back around to a lack of understanding of biblical doctrine?

It's partly a lack of understanding. The lack of understanding, I think, is the fruit of a lack of true belief, a lack of true commitment. Where you had, beginning in the 70s at least, and I go back that far because I became a Christian in 1971, so I really began to pay attention to the evangelical movement in the 70s, and even in the 70s it seemed to me that there was this sort of shift in thinking among evangelicals.

You could probably trace it back even to the 1950s and the founding of Christianity today, where one of the major goals was to try to gain clout and respectability, starting with the academic community.

It wasn't academically acceptable to be a fundamentalist, and so we wanted to be known as evangelicals rather than fundamentalists, and pretty soon we let go of the fundamental doctrines and started chasing academic respectability.

And if that's your goal, and it's not just academic respectability, but now Christians want to be recognized and appreciated in the entertainment world, in the academic world, in pretty much every realm of culture and art, and when I see people chasing that goal of acceptance and respect from worldly communities in the realms of academics and arts and all of that, I always think, I just don't see anything in Scripture that teaches us we should think that way, and historically that has put the church on the wrong track.

Any church that starts to seek after the world's approval rather than faithfulness to Scripture is, by definition,.

On the downgrade. Well, okay, that was part one of my interview with Phil Johnson, and again a huge thank you to Phil, even though he shouldn't be listening to this show, but I was very thankful for his time.

So you'll hear part two of that interview on the next episode of Equipping Eve, and I just wanted to close, ladies, with something Phil mentioned there at the end of this portion of the interview talking about a downgrade, really, and churches on a a downward trajectory of truth, and I found a rather pertinent quote that I thought I would share.

I believe this is from Robert Schindler, writing in the Sword and the Trowel back in the 19th century, discussing the common denominator, if you will, between those who start on the downgrade. And he writes,.

The first step astray is a want of adequate faith in the divine inspiration of the sacred scriptures. All the while a man bows to the authority of God's word, he will not entertain any sentiment contrary to its teaching.

To the law and to the testimony is his appeal concerning every doctrine. He esteems that holy book concerning all things to be right, and therefore he hates every false way. But let a man question or entertain low views of the inspiration and authority of the Bible, and he is without chart to guide him, and without anchor to hold him.

In looking carefully over the history of the times and the movement of the times, of which we have written briefly, this fact is apparent, that where ministers and Christian churches have held fast to the truth that the holy scriptures have been given by God as an authoritative and infallible rule of faith and practice, they have never wandered very seriously out of the right way.

But when, on the other hand, reason has been exalted above revelation and made the exponent of revelation, all kinds of errors and mischiefs have been the result. Think on that, ladies. And this is why it is so important not only that we know God's word, but that we esteem it for the authority that it is.

God's word is authoritative. It is infallible. It is inspired. It is inerrant. And it is all that we need to live a life of godliness in pursuit of the righteousness that God calls us to, to be sure we are made righteous in Christ.

It is his righteousness that attains our salvation. But ladies, we are called to be holy as he is holy. And it is through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that God makes us and conforms us into the image of his son.

Someday we will be glorified and we will be finally perfect. That day will not happen on earth, but we are daily, hourly being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ if we have been saved by him.

But we need to have a high, high view of scripture and high, high view of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is our master, who purchased us, not with money, but with his blood. Think on these things, ladies.

Until next time, get in your Bible and get on your knees and get equipped. Thanks for listening.

You've been listening to Equipping Eve, a No Compromise radio production. If you'd like to get ahold of Erin, you can reach her at equippingeve at gmail .com, or you can check out one of our two websites, donotbesurprised .com or equippingeve .org.

Thanks for listening.