Has the Church Planting Bubble Burst?

Your Calvinist

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me

00:10

So heavy And I need a friendly voice with some good theology

00:18

Helping us to be speaking So I mix a manly drink Pepsi, shoe polish

00:23

And I hit the YouTube link Don't say hit, that sounds violent And I feel my troubles all melt away

00:32

It's your Calvinist Podcast with Keith Foskey Beards and bow ties

00:43

Laughs till sunrise It's your

00:48

Calvinist Podcast with Keith Foskey He's not like most

00:57

Calvinists He's nice He's not like most

01:58

Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most

02:32

Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most

02:40

Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most

02:48

Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most

02:53

Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most

02:59

Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most

03:05

Calvinists He's not like most

03:14

Calvinists He's not like most

03:23

Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most

03:32

Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most

03:59

Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists He's not like most Calvinists stew, you know, with meat and beans and you eat it with crackers and sour cream cheese.

04:06

And here it's a condiment. It's got like cinnamon in it and it's kind of like some, maybe some sugary, uh, you put it on hot dogs and stuff.

04:15

So it, it, it's a very Cincinnati thing for sure. Definitely, definitely different.

04:21

When they told me it had cinnamon in it, I was like, wait a minute, that, that goes against all known rules for us in the

04:27

South. And somebody even said, somebody even said there was chocolate in it. I was like, okay, we're done. We can't have chocolate in our, in our chill.

04:34

You can buy it. You can buy it in a can at Kroger. I mean, it's, it's a big deal here. Oh yeah.

04:40

What's the name of the big restaurant that you guys, uh, the one that's like everywhere up there? Uh, skyline, skyline.

04:46

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are seven different, uh, chilies. There's skyline chili, but there's, there's a gold star chili.

04:54

There's a number of ones that are here in Cincinnati and they all compete for the supremacy, but skyline is on top at the moment.

05:02

Awesome. Well, what caused me to reach out to you? And I did reach out to you a few weeks ago.

05:07

Um, we met at the fight laugh feast conference last year, but what got me interested in wanting to have you on the show,

05:14

Michael, is that I read some of your articles and particularly some of your tweets about the difficulties and the dangers of, of church planting and specifically the church planting movement that really, uh, that really took off, uh,

05:28

I would say in the middle, mid two thousands and, and really had its has had its heyday since then.

05:34

And, uh, you've even, you've an article and you, you even argue in your articles that it's sort of coming to an end you think.

05:39

Uh, and we're going to talk about that a little bit. Um, but I just want to mention to the audience, uh, your, your, uh, dmichaelclary .substack

05:48

.com. They can go and read this article. It's called the wild wild west of church planting.

05:54

And if you don't mind, I'd like to just read the first a couple of sentences just to give an idea of where we're coming from.

06:00

Is that all right? If I just, just read from that. Awesome. It says the church planting craze of the last 30 years has created a mess and we're feeling the downstream effects of it.

06:11

Now here's a dirty little secret of the church planting world. It's a haven for guys that won't take the traditional route of serving in an established church and moving slowly up the ranks.

06:23

Boy, when I read that, I said, this guy is going to be super popular. I said, this is everybody's going to add that.

06:32

And, and, and I want to, I, you know, certainly don't want to make this all about me, but it's funny when I read that because my story is so different.

06:39

I, I pastor the church I grew up in. So literally talking about coming up the ranks. I've been in the same church since I was seven years old.

06:46

And so not only did I come up the ranks of ministry in this church, going from associate pastor to youth pastor to, you know, preaching pastor to the senior pastor, all those things.

06:55

But I went from being a seven -year -old Sunday school student all the way to that. So, so I, you know, but there is something that I, that, that when

07:04

I read that, I was like, is, is this really an issue? Has this really been an issue? Because again, I wasn't part of the church planting movement.

07:11

I wasn't part of any of that. I've been in the same church. So all I know is anecdotal what I see from, you know, other, not anecdotal, but not, you know, from, from what

07:19

I read other people, you know, and it's not my experience, not my anecdotes, it's other people's anecdotes. So, so tell me what made you write that.

07:26

And what makes you think that that's the case? First of all, it's, it's somewhat autobiographical.

07:35

I was, there's a, it's funny because some of the comments that I read, I mean, like a lot of people had positive things to say about it, but some of the critical comments, one guy said, like, it was like a, it's like the said, there's, there's no self -awareness or self reflection in this article.

07:53

And I was like, this, this article is a self -reflection because I, I, a lot of this is me working out some of the things that I had been taught.

08:02

And I had not practiced some of the, I didn't practice some of these things, but at least in this regard

08:07

I didn't want to take the traditional route. There was, I, there was some impatience.

08:15

I wanted to get out there and do stuff and, um, not want to hang around for 10 or 15 years and stuff.

08:21

So it was like there was an impatience even within me. Um, but even still, once I got into, once I planted my church and I started to survey the landscape and meet other church planters and see how other guys are doing things,

08:34

I did notice some of the things I'm talking about. It's usually youth pastors or music ministers that, uh, that have a lot of charisma.

08:44

They're younger and they've got a lot of energy. And so they, they sort of have a, within maybe ascending church, they have like a sub congregation of people that really kind of draw to them as the young cool guy.

08:55

Um, and they, they don't want to, they may not want to wait and, you know, to ascend into a senior pastor role or have to, um, you know, to go that traditional route.

09:09

And so church planting is a, was a strategy. It's almost like this opportunity presented to those guys to circumvent the traditional way and just kind of strike out on your own.

09:19

And then, you know, in many cases it was a good thing. Um, they were ready and that was a good path for them because they wanted to, uh, reach people through their church plan.

09:27

But in a lot of cases, a lot of the guys that I've met are guys that I would not want my children to go to that church.

09:36

You know, if I, that, and that, that was always a bit of a test that I had in mind. If I was evaluating a church planner, assessing a church planner, and I was thinking if my children were grown, um, what

09:45

I trust this man to be their pastor. In many cases, I would have to say no. And that, that was just a good internal, uh, guide to, to, to let me know that this is, there's, there are problems here.

10:01

And the problems of course, are things that are, you know, I wrote throughout the rest of this article, but that, that was a, that was kind of an initial light bulb moment when

10:11

I started to see guys that I just wouldn't trust them as pastors, but they're sent out as church planters to start churches.

10:19

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and, and that's the scary part, right? Is, is, is there's more to a church than it's beginning.

10:27

There's the maturity and, and, and, and leading and years of service and, and, and learning how to counsel people.

10:34

I saw, I saw a meme earlier, uh, of someone who said, uh, and it was just, it was just somebody making just sort of an offhanded,

10:40

I guess, comment, but it was, it rang true. It said, you may not know this, but you have a free counselor.

10:45

He's called your pastor. And I was like, that's, you know, people don't realize often, but they're the pastor wants to be in your life.

10:51

He wants to, if he's a good pastor, he wants to love you. He does want to offer that to you if you need it. You know, people need to know that the pastor's there, but in a lot of churches, pastors aren't there.

11:00

The pastor isn't the counselor because he doesn't have the experience or he's, or he doesn't have the desire because his life is, is the

11:08

CEO driven model where he's not the, he's not involved in people's lives. He's the guy out front. Everybody else has got to do all those things.

11:14

And I know there are different size churches and maybe I'm painting with a broad brush there, but I did, you know, it got me thinking about the, the, the reality that, that where, where is the, where's the growth?

11:24

Where's the experience? Where is, where's a lot of that. And I saw a lot of that in your, in your article.

11:31

And you said in it, you said several of today's largest and fastest growing mega churches were founded in the last 25 years.

11:38

That's, that's wild to, I never really thought about that because the biggest church in my town growing up was first Baptist church of Jacksonville.

11:47

And I don't know if you know anything about Jacksonville, Florida, if you're, if you've ever been in this part of the world, but first Baptist church of Jacksonville used to be the biggest church in America.

11:55

There was a time when first bad, because, because Jacksonville is actually the largest landmass church, or I'm sorry, largest landmass city in, in, in the, in the

12:03

United States, because the whole County, all of Duval County is Jacksonville. And so there was a time when, when we, it was advertised largest city in the

12:12

United States. Well, it's, well it was only because it was the largest landmass. We only have a, we only have a million people.

12:18

It's not, certainly not as far as the amount of people, but it was large by virtue of size.

12:24

And so Jacksonville, first Baptist church of Jacksonville was the mega church.

12:29

I mean, it had seven city blocks. I'm not, and that's not an exaggeration. It was seven.

12:35

Three of the three of those blocks were just, were just parking garages where people would pardon to go to church.

12:42

And you're, you're, I mean, it's amazing, but to be a part of first Baptist church, there was a, there was a process, man.

12:48

And you had to go through, you had to start at the bottom and work your way up. And you're saying with these new churches, these less than 25 year old churches, these churches that have just come out, that's not really, that's not really the way it was.

13:01

And, uh, and, and tell us a little bit more about your story, because I kinda, you, you mentioned, you know, you planted a church and these different things.

13:08

What made you want to do that? What made you have that desire? I know you already said some things, but kind of go back to your, your story a bit.

13:16

Well, it started with, um, college ministry. So I grew up in a small church and I, the, the church

13:23

I grew up in was, uh, we met in a YWCA building and set up chairs.

13:28

And so it was kind of had a church planter church plant kind of feel to it. Uh, not very big.

13:34

Um, and whenever I got into college, there was, I plugged in with campus crusade.

13:40

So crew and crew was where I, my faith went to the next level.

13:47

I grew a lot through crew. And so naturally, uh, when I sensed that ministry was what

13:54

God was calling me to do, that was the path that I'd experienced. I'd grown there. And so it was a natural transition to go on staff with crew, which

14:02

I did for about five years or so. Um, so they assigned me to the university of Louisville, my wife and I, we, we started there, uh, in Louisville and that's where Southern Baptist seminary is.

14:14

And I was excited to be there because I was able to take classes there and I wanted to do that. And so while I was there in Louisville, there was my, my love for the church grew and grew because at that time,

14:28

I thought my thought of the, my, my, my thinking about the church was kind of messed up. Uh, I thought, you know, campus ministry, para church, that's really where the action is and God's really moving there.

14:39

And the church is just kind of lame and boring and that sort of thing. And that was that that did have that thought.

14:44

And I know a lot of people that really think that way. Um, so while I was there in Louisville, I got involved in, um, a church plant and the,

14:54

I got involved in the church plant because the, the pastor there, the church planter, uh, met up with my wife and I and they cast a vision for church planting.

15:02

And I had never heard of this thing before. I mean, I, I literally, it had never crossed my mind that people that churches have to get started somehow.

15:11

Um, and so as they talk to us about church planting, I was like, wow, this is a really, really great idea, great concept.

15:18

Um, and meanwhile I was taking classes at Southern Baptist seminary. And so during this period of time, my,

15:25

I was seeing a lot of problems in the para church world with crew and the way we were doing ministry,

15:30

I was really troubled by some of the, some of the things we're doing. Um, and then my love for the church was growing.

15:39

And so it just seemed like a, uh, as I started to finish up my seminary degree and we thought my wife and I were just considering what's next.

15:48

Um, we'd seen the church plant. We, we were there at the very first core group meeting of that church plant. Uh, we're there for about three years total.

15:55

I was the worship leader there. So I helped to, you know, I picked out the sound equipment and I, you know, recruited the musicians.

16:02

And so I did all the things and I was like, this is, this is really a lot of the things that I loved about doing crew campus ministry could find similar expression in a church, uh, because we're still building, you know, building things.

16:15

And I, you know, I thought that was, I liked doing that. I like to, to, to create things, but to do it in a way where you're not having turnover every year as people graduate, new freshmen come in.

16:27

Um, so I love the idea of church planning, decided to Cincinnati, um, was, you know, that emerged as the place where we sensed that God was calling us to go.

16:37

Um, and we did that. We did just that. We, we applied the, the many of the things I had experienced with my crew experience and also my theological training that had really given me a deep love in the theological commitment to the primacy of the church as God's plan a for the world.

16:54

Um, and, but then I started to see, I can know this idea of creating and starting and building.

17:00

Um, it, it, there, that was encouraged in a way that I thought was really harmful and dangerous.

17:06

Um, but I suppose we may get into that later, but that's, that's sort of the, the background story for how we got into church planting.

17:15

It was really a, a, a growing love for the church that was inculcated by helping to plant a church and through theological training,

17:22

I saw like, Oh, you know, I was thinking about the church all wrong. And as God corrected that he, um, he, he had led us into church planting.

17:34

So when I, my, my time period in my mind is looking, you know, around the mid 2000s is when this really, cause like you said,

17:42

I never heard the church church. I was in seminary from 2002 to 2008 ish. I, you know,

17:47

I did my, I did some undergrad work because I didn't have my degree. So I had to do some undergrad work first, but then I did my master's and my doctorate and all that later.

17:55

Um, but when I was in seminary, I never heard the term church planting, at least not in the school I was in.

18:00

Most of the guys I was went to seminary with were actually most of them were already pastors. They were coming to get a degree as older men.

18:07

I jokingly say, my seminary was like a pastoral trade school, you know, it was these older guys and me, which was nice because it was guys with experience.

18:14

So I could sit around, you know, and in class and talk to guys who had been through it. And that was nice, but nobody was talking about planning churches in my seminary.

18:24

And again, I'm in a unique situation because I went to Jacksonville Baptist theological. Again, I'm such a Jacksonville guy. I've never,

18:29

I've never lived anywhere else. I've been in the same church since I was seven. I'm such a homebody. There's not even a, not, not even a joke.

18:35

Like, like going to Kentucky when I saw you last year, that was a huge deal for me. Going 12 hours from home. Take a foreign mission trip.

18:42

It was. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just not that guy. I was built for, I was built for right here. I love this that I can talk to people from around the world right in the middle of my office.

18:51

So I don't have to go anywhere. But, um, but so I don't, I don't remember hearing that term until, uh, actually it was later.

19:00

We had a young man in our church who went to Southern. We, he was our worship leader.

19:05

Uh, and, and, and he, I think it was 2011, 2012. He went to Southern seminary and, and then

19:11

I started hearing church planning more. I started hearing it some from him, but I, I just remember that was sort of, the time

19:17

I was hearing the term and maybe it was, maybe it was more from the stuff that he was sending me and things I was seeing.

19:22

And I know, you know, he was part of a church plant in Louisville, which I thought was kind of weird. Cause it's like, you're in Louisville Kentucky in the heart of Southern seminary.

19:29

Do they need another church? But, but again, I mean, I love what he was doing and I love what the guys are doing there. I'm not questioning it.

19:35

I'm just saying, it seems it was like, okay, they're planning another church in a place that has churches. Okay. What, what's the reason, right?

19:41

What, what was the purpose? And so looking at that, I ask when, you know, since you were in it and you know what was up, when was it, when was, when did it sort of become a huge thing?

19:53

And, and, and, and looking back, I would say Tim Keller was probably one of the leading voices, but there were a few different things that converged around the same time.

20:05

And I would say mid 2000s 2000, 2005 might've been when it really kind of hit the stratosphere.

20:14

But it had been, it had been in the works, you know, kind of a growing trend before that, but where it, there were a couple of things that happened.

20:23

So the young restless reformed movement, which is it's an, it's a loose affiliation of different organizations of new

20:31

Calvinism. Basically they had together for the gospel, the gospel coalition, you had acts 29 sovereign grace ministry,

20:39

Southern Baptist theological seminary. There's these different organizations that were all around the same time.

20:46

And I think a lot of it was driven by John Piper because everybody had read desiring God and J I J I Packer and RC Sproul.

20:54

Some of these guys were really hitting their prominence. And so it just sort of opened the opened this theological tradition to people that prior hadn't either not learned it or been exposed to it.

21:04

Now they're becoming passionate about Calvinism. John Piper wrote the book, let the nations be glad, which really just it, his emphasis on that book was international, but I still think the idea of mission evangelism, reaching the lost, fulfilling the great commission.

21:21

And that lines up with Bill Bright, who was the founder of crew. So a lot of the same thinking that was not in the

21:29

Calvinism world had been reaching to a fever pitch and then it hit the Calvinism world and that accelerated it.

21:38

Um, I remember first, I go very early on listening to Mark Driscoll sermons and he would talk about church planting.

21:46

And, and I was like, Oh, this guy is unlike any pastor I've ever heard before.

21:51

He doesn't sound like any other preacher. And he was hilarious. And he, it's like he made, he kind of did a help to make

21:57

Calvinism cool. It's like the cool kids, they're into Calvinism and that made it appealing. I think it drew people in and he was talking about acts 29 and church planting and mission.

22:05

And he written, you know, uh, done a lot of writing, wrote a book or maybe several books that some of which were about his missional method.

22:13

So all these things can't came together in the mid two thousands, I would say. And then, um, the

22:20

North American mission board with the Southern Baptist, they had always, there's always been, um, evangelism and church planting.

22:27

That was, that was a part of their, um, part of the mission strategy. But then as a way to,

22:33

I would say, I would say they did, they were, they did capitalize on the, the energy and there was a, they gave it a branding change where they started the send network and they developed this send city strategy.

22:48

Now that was about the early 2010s. So this send strategy, there are 25 cities that they'd kind of marked around the

22:57

U S is like high population centers. And they said, we're going to focus on reaching these cities.

23:03

And that was, that coincided with Tim Keller who was also talking about in the city for the city, urban church planting.

23:10

And Tim Keller gave an intellectual, uh, articulation of church planting. And he wrote this little article called why plant churches that was, you know, circulated widely.

23:21

And he, there was a, uh, an audio talk that went along with it. And he answers a lot of the most common objections that people say.

23:28

So like, why need, why do we need another church in the city? And a lot of church planters would listen to this and they would answer those objections.

23:35

And so this energy really culminated in I have money and effort and everybody was talking about church planting as like we church planting is the way that we're going to reach our country and reach the world.

23:51

And there was just a lot of hope and optimism about that. Yeah. So you raise an interesting point and cause

24:00

I was going to bring up the, the YRR and you, you mentioned young wrestlers and reformed. And, and, and I remember that I remember

24:07

Mark Driscoll's, you know, he was dripping with charisma and everybody, you know, Oh wow. He's willing to say things nobody else is willing to say.

24:14

And everybody loves him. I remember sitting at the, sitting at some friend's house. Uh, it was around 2000, uh, maybe 2007, 2008.

24:22

And I was sitting at some friend's house and they were like, you got to see this preacher. And they pulled it up and it was Mark Driscoll. Of course, I'd already heard of him, but he looked like a rock star and, you know, and, and, and he was telling, you know, telling men that they, that they were terrible and they need to do better and all this stuff.

24:36

And, you know, and, and he was doing it in colorful language, obviously. Um, but, but, but here's a, here's a thought

24:43

I just had as you were talking, I want to, I want you to get you to speak on this for a minute, you know, as well as I do, at least

24:48

I think we would agree on this, that, that a lot of traditional Southern Baptist churches were not, are not interested in Calvinism.

24:54

In fact, a lot of them are actively trying to weed out anybody who's Calvinistic in their soteriology.

25:00

And you got guys like Leighton Flowers who are actively, I mean, he has videos, like how to spot a Calvinist who's, you know, if you're a pulpit committee, how to weed out

25:07

Calvinists and, um, well,

25:13

I mean, he has like keywords, like, listen for these buzzwords. If a, if a person comes in and he's talking about, if he, if he won't say

25:19

Jesus loves everybody, or if he won't say Jesus died for all, but he says Jesus died for believers or something, because that's what

25:26

I usually say. And Jesus died for those who will believe, you know, that, that, that's, that's a phrase I'll use. And if he says that, that's, that's, that's closet

25:32

Calvinism and those guys are, you know, they're dangerous. And so, um, but with that, do you think that part of the church planting movement is somehow, you, you tied it to Calvinism.

25:44

So I want to kind of see if you agree with this. Is it, is it possible that these guys felt like there was no home for them?

25:50

Like they're like, I don't, I can't go work my way up the ranks because as soon as, as soon as I go into this church and as soon as I preach a sermon on Romans, you know,

25:59

Romans three, or as soon as I preach a sermon on Ephesians one, they're going to, you know, they're, they're going to kick me out.

26:05

And so why, why, why, why go get kicked in the teeth when I can just go down to the corner and open up another church?

26:11

I mean, is that, and again, I'm trying to, uh, maybe I'm oversimplifying, but I'm saying, is that possible that that was part of this is the guys didn't feel like they were welcome in, in, in the old school, traditional way.

26:22

Yeah. Oh, I think for sure. That may not be the, uh, for some that might've be the singular thing that there was not a church that would, that would preach or teach or even allow

26:35

Calvinist doctrine to be expressed. And so the only way for them to be able to do that was to start their own churches.

26:40

I think that there's a part of that. Um, uh, and I think with, with the thing with church planters is the kind of man that wants to plant a church, maybe not all of them, but often, um, the kind of guy that wants to do his own thing.

26:53

Um, and he, he wants to assert something that he wants to address a need.

26:59

It's like there's something missing in the church and that's often what he wants to fill the void. The church isn't relevant enough.

27:05

The church doesn't, uh, doesn't have the right doctrine. There's something that, that compels him to, to want to start a new church.

27:15

And that new church is going to in some way be a corrective of what he came from.

27:21

Um, and, and because of that, it could be a theological corrective. I think that's certainly true, Keith, but it's, I think there,

27:27

I've seen, I've seen different varieties of it. It could be like, you know, the, my previous church wouldn't let us turn up the guitars loud enough.

27:33

So we want to start, you know, it could be, it could be something like that also. Yeah. Hey, I'm, I wrote the word.

27:40

I'm, I hope you don't, when I, when I look down, I'm actually writing notes. Cause I, like you say words and I'm like, boy, I want to, I want to jump on that.

27:46

And the word you wrote was corrective because I've seen so many guys who in their, um, you know, whether it's a house church that they're doing or a plant or something, it's almost always because, well,

27:57

I haven't found a church yet. That's doing it right. Therefore I'm going to do it right.

28:03

You know? And I'm not saying everybody's that way, but a lot of times it's like, you know, there's just, there's just nowhere that fits all my needs.

28:09

So I'm going to create this church that fits my needs. I mean, is, is, is that, is, is that part of the issue?

28:17

Yes. It is a, it is a way to baptize a consumer impulse, to have cafeteria style, customizable church experience.

28:27

And everybody's got, I mean, in any healthy church or in any Christian's life, there's going to be in their church, things that they would be, they do like, or don't like that.

28:36

They do prefer don't prefer. And nobody gets all of their preferences.

28:42

Nobody gets all of the things that they want to customize exactly the way they want it. So we have to accommodate areas.

28:48

And some areas are areas of compromise, doctrinally, morally, that we just can't, we can't abide that.

28:54

So you, I think sometimes you must leave a false church. But then another times it could be,

29:01

I just don't like it here. Uh, it could be some, some, it could be like, well, the pastor he preaches about this too much and it's annoying.

29:08

Um, there's, there's a church in my town and that's, they've, they've been using this tagline for years.

29:16

Like we're not your grandma's church. Um, and what, what, what does that imply? That implies that your, your grandma's church is there's something wrong with it and you need to get out of there.

29:26

And we are not only not your grandma's church, but also we're cooler or hipper or younger.

29:33

Um, when it could be your grandma's church was faithful and your grandma loves Jesus unlike anybody else.

29:39

And she is, you know, like she, she's praying and she's studying the word and she's witnessing to others.

29:45

It could be like, maybe your grandma's church is great. Uh, but that, what that does is that taps into this discontent that I think is in everybody's heart and, um, and, and, and church plants.

30:00

So church plants that are super successful often end up as mega churches. And I see these two is as there's a lot of overlap between the two.

30:09

Um, because they're, they're, they can be. And the thing is like, I'm not saying you have to overgeneralize to a, to a degree.

30:17

So this is a generalization, but both of them can to a degree be tapping into the same impulse.

30:23

One just at the front end, you know, when it's small, the other they've they've mastered the art, but it's the impulse of customizing the, the ideal experience that will appeal to the most numbers of people because we're driven by numbers.

30:40

Yeah. I tell you what you, you mentioned you're not, you're, you probably saw my reaction when you mentioned you're not my grandma's church.

30:46

I get so offended by that. And I'm not a guy who's easily offended. I mean, I'm, I'm a humorist. I like to make jokes and I, and I understand the value of a well -timed well approved, well, you know, appropriate quip, you know, something that, that can get people to look and say,

31:00

Hey, you know, superior theology. That's my thing. You know, that, you know, it's a, well, it's, it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's intended to elicit a response.

31:08

But when someone says it's not, you know, we're not your grandmother's church. Um, I just, you know, what you said is right.

31:16

Well, maybe, maybe her church was great. Maybe you, you aren't the, you know, maybe you don't like it, but that doesn't mean that church was bad.

31:25

And, and, and the idea that we should just, that we, we should just step on the previous generation.

31:30

And I realized there, you know, there are certain aspects of the previous generation, which there was cultural

31:36

Christianity that, you know, we have to consider some of the things that were going on. And, and, and, um, some of the things like, like I remember in the nineties when

31:44

I grew up, I mean, I wasn't saved until 99. That's when I got, I got married and got saved in the same year, but I grew up in church and I grew up in the whole youth group, you know, watching these things happen.

31:55

And, um, I remember the, the, that was when the, and maybe, maybe you can correct me here historically, but it seems like the eighties and nineties when the youth group culture really took off and then those youth group, then those youth groups, they were cool, but the church wasn't.

32:12

So like you go to youth group and youth group's cool, right? Like we got this cool youth pastor and he has a Mohawk or we have this cool youth pastor and he's got a tattoo or we got a cool youth pastor and he knows how to, you know, he knows how to cut it straight, but we don't go to big church.

32:25

And what happened was, it seems like those youth groups became churches. That's exactly right.

32:31

It's like the, it's like, we're going to do, I just think of like the most cheesy youth groups, you know, it's like, we're going to call it, you know, extreme, you know, but there's no

32:40

E at the front and it's just extreme. You know, there's just an X or the, or the edge or it's like, and it's like stuff that people do to kind of make things seem cool to kids and kids, you know, they just kind of roll their eyes at it.

32:51

And I'm like, they're there's, they still do that. They just now call it church.

32:56

It is youth group has become big church. And what's funny is like, this has gone on for so long that like this whole, this is not your grandma's church thing that this church in my town does.

33:06

They've been saying that for so long that a lot of the people saying that are their grandparents now.

33:11

And it's like you are literally somebody else's grandma's church.

33:18

And it's almost like the traditional church is now the mega church with the lights and the fog machines and all the young people, they think it's stupid and ridiculous.

33:27

They laugh at it. They make fun of it, but they position themselves as though we're the cool kids doing the cool thing and they get away with it because they, they do have a lot of numbers.

33:35

But a lot of the young people I'm talking to, they, they're not impressed by every church has a rock band.

33:42

Every church has drums. You're not innovating at all. There's nothing cool about this. They want substance.

33:48

They want, they love the tradition. They love the beauty and the architecture. They love liturgy. They want Bible teaching.

33:53

And I was like the church that they're making fun of. The traditional grandma's church is now the church that the young people most crave.

34:01

So it's like their marketing strategy is really out of date. I don't know if you've seen my, the thumbnails

34:07

I've been making, but it's the two people talking to each other and they've, they've got this kind of a little, the little bubbles jokes.

34:14

I just have a great one for us. It's maybe it's a, it's not your grandma's church, but you're a grandma.

34:20

That's like, because what you just said is so funny. It's like, but you're, but aren't you a grandma?

34:26

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, that is, that's because the nineties, right. Some, some people I went to school with our grandparents,

34:32

I have a 25 year old daughter. I could be a grandparent anytime. And what you said, the X extreme youth group.

34:37

Well, now that's the name of the church. You got elevate, percolate, salivate, all these churches, you know, and that's, that's what it is.

34:47

And, and so I think you nailed it. Now, have you ever heard of redeemed zoomer? Yeah. Yeah.

34:52

I don't, I know the name. And I think I've seen an interview or something. Well, the only reason

34:57

I mentioned is because what you just said is like his whole bread and butter, his whole thing.

35:03

He's this young guy. I like him. We have some major differences. We've done debates and he's, but we get along personally.

35:09

I mean, we text back and forth. We have a, we have a good friendship and I'm, I'm grateful God allows me and him to have that, that relationship.

35:17

But he is trying to do something called reconquista, which is his, this grand plan to take back the

35:23

PC USA for conservative truth, right. Or for biblical truth. Right. Like, and, and most people, most people are telling him that's, you know, that's, that's a lost cause.

35:34

The PC USA is too far gone. It's, you know, it's basically, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're barking up a very, very tall tree trying to, trying to make that change.

35:43

But he, he makes the same argument you do though, that, that the idea that, that the idea that people want these, the concerts, the idea that people want the, the, the, these rock bands and everything when, when really what a lot of people are craving is this tradition, this, this, this tradition that seems to have been lost and, and is still in some of these older churches, but some of them need to be revitalized theologically, even if they do have some of the good tradition.

36:12

Yeah. So I just, yeah. I think a traditional is the new modern it's the new, like, and, and what is now, what, what is often credited as being, you know, the cool, the hip, the relevant that, that will become the traditional.

36:29

And by the, by the word traditional, I mean like you, you, you hear that word and you think that's old. It's out of date. That doesn't really relate to me.

36:36

Something the older people do. And I think the big laser light show dog and pony show that is a, that is more of a boomer

36:46

Gen X era phenomenon. It's a, it's a, it's a niche thing that will,

36:52

I mean, I don't think it'll die out entirely, but it is, it, it, it doesn't have, because what you do is like you, everything is

37:01

Keith. Like the easy, it's not hard to get people to show up to a show on Sunday.

37:06

Let's say if you, you wanted to, I could take a Marvel movie, an Avengers movie or something. And I could say, we're going to play this this

37:13

Sunday and we're going to, well, I'll tell you what, we'll pray before and I'll read a Bible for what we'll start. We'll pause the movie in the middle and I'll read a

37:20

Bible verse and then we'll sing a song at the end. And we're going to call that church. If that's how you define church, you can get people to show up to whatever production you put on and call it church.

37:30

And people will think it's sure. It's not hard to get people to show up at some spectacle. And that's what these mega churches have done is they've, they've, they've mastered the art.

37:40

I mean, like, uh, this church in my city that I won't name it. Um, I don't want to make too many enemies here, but, but it was founded by Procter and Gamble marketing executives that ought to tell you something.

37:53

Uh, they, they know how to market a product and they, they know what they're doing.

37:58

Um, and it's just like what Bill Hybels did whenever he founded a Willow Creek. It's like he would survey the neighborhood and say, why don't you go to church?

38:06

Why don't you go to church? Why don't you go to church? And he hear all the answers and then kind of do the market research and figure out, okay, the church that people will come to would have to have all of these, all of these criteria.

38:18

You build a church that has those criteria and people will show up. And what do you know? It worked. Um, but it seems like at no point did anybody stop to ask, like, is this biblical?

38:28

Like, is this, and if it's not biblical, then you can't expect it to truly be blessed by God. You may have people show up and you may call it a church, but that doesn't mean that there's the power of the

38:39

Holy spirit at work there. Um, you have numbers and numbers alone is the metric of God's blessing.

38:46

That's how, that's how you determine, Oh, God is blessing this because look, there's, there's a thousand people here that God's blessing it.

38:55

Um, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of truth in what you just said.

39:00

And I have to go back for just a second. The fact that you said laser lights are Boomer and Gen X. I've never thought of that, but that is so funny.

39:07

That is so funny because I'm Gen X and you're right. You know, that's, that's, that's like what our generation wanted.

39:13

They wanted the youth group experience, you know, I'm Gen X too. I mean, this is, this, this is my, this is my time.

39:21

Yeah. And who, and, and, and, you know, I did a show recently. I, I, it's been a few weeks or actually a few months ago now where we talked about the seeker sensitive movement and, and, and, and how that sort of brought changes into the church.

39:35

And, and really the seeker sensitive stuff is the Bilheibel stuff. That's the stuff you were talking about. That's, that was the going out into the neighborhood.

39:41

And what does the church, what does the seeker want? Let's give the seeker what they want. So that they'll come in. And that gave birth to this, you know, the youth groups and all these things.

39:49

And then we see the churches that are like that. So there's obviously an evolution here, but the evolution is coming to an end.

39:55

And you mentioned this in your article. I want to recite, you know, this is under lessons learned in the article.

40:00

You said the church planning craze has died down recently, leaving us with a mess on our hands. And you, you give a few observations, but without reading everything, just when you say leaving us with a mess on our hands, what's the mess that we're cleaning up now?

40:13

What, what is it that you're, that you're concerned about? The mess is that like, we've,

40:19

I think our modern ecclesiology is broken. And there's one of the, there's a number of problems here.

40:28

One of the key ways is our, it's like a one of a satanic strategy from throughout the history of the church has been to leverage mission to cover or mission is the veneer that you put over sinful practices or disobedience.

40:46

And what that does is that trains people that the way we reach people for Christ is to disobey God. So we can't, we can't, we can't preach the

40:54

Bible. We can't, we can't obey God in the way he tells us to do things. We have to kind of break the rules and we break the rules in order to reach people.

41:02

And then, you know, the old adage that you've probably heard this is like what you went with is what you went them to.

41:09

Uh, that means it's you, you form expectations of what church is by the thing that you use to attract them.

41:16

So now that becomes an expectation, it's like, you've got me in the door by this dog and pony show.

41:22

So dog and pony show is what church is to me that defines church for me.

41:27

And if you're like, well, actually, uh, we, we can't do that anymore because that's not faithful.

41:32

It's like, well, then you can't do that. It's like, you're, you are, you're now, uh, going against what the definition of church that you supplied to me is.

41:42

And I think that a lot of churches are built on principles because they've, they felt like do whatever it takes to get people in the door.

41:49

And that entertainment factor has been so built into everybody's understanding of church that it may, it's made reform very, very difficult.

41:58

And it's because like reform will mean like, well, church is now, it's like, if you're, if, if your church is built on hype and excitement, then if you're like, well, actually we're going to do liturgy.

42:09

We're going to do a very disciplined focus time of prayer. We're going to do quiet meditation. We're going to sing hymns.

42:15

We're going to sing Psalms, Lord forbid. We're going to, um, preach through, uh, you know, difficult texts of scripture.

42:22

It's like, man, that's boring. Like why don't we want to do that? It's because boring is boring is bad.

42:28

You can't, church can't be boring. That's the one thing you must never do. Church has to be exciting. It has to be fun. It has to be entertaining.

42:33

You've got to be charismatic. You got to tell jokes. You've got to, you got to kind of get people warmed up and it's got to be a crowd pleaser.

42:40

And I'm like, our ecclesiology is fundamentally broken. And I think the, the church planning and the connection between church planning and mega church, mega churchy entity, all these things that it, it is, it has created this environment to where the thing, the primary vehicle of spiritual formation of being the church is now broken.

43:01

And so spiritual formation itself is broken. And so you have a lot of sheep that are converted, but they are starving.

43:09

They're like, they're getting no safe pasture at all. And I, everybody's accountable for their own sin, but I hold,

43:16

I would fault the pastors and the leaders of these churches. I hold, I think they are, they, they are uniquely responsible for, for doing this.

43:28

And to the extent that I have recognized this in my own ministry, there are things that's like, we've been reforming and I'm like, wait a minute, we should think differently about this.

43:34

And we're always trying to, to be more faithful. And I've just experienced this myself.

43:40

It's like, it is, it is costly to do that because you're now going against an expectation. So that's, that there are lots of things

43:48

I could say, but that's, that's one of the biggest ones. Our ecclesiology is broken. Yeah, for sure.

43:54

And, and, you know, I said something last week and I think it's correct, but, but, but maybe we would want to flesh this out a little bit.

44:02

Cause it was, it was in a little different context, but I was, I was preaching last week. I'm in 2

44:08

Corinthians chapter four. And I was referring to, where it says that the

44:14

God of this world has blinded their minds. Right. And talked about judicial hardening and those things and, and, and how

44:19

Satan works. And I said, one of the things that we see in churches, I said is, is people who want the bad teaching.

44:27

I said, Joel Osteen wouldn't exist if there wasn't a, a, a, a, a foot, a football or basketball stadium full of people who wanted it.

44:36

So I said, he's meeting a market need because that's right. They're guilty or two.

44:41

So, so you're not, and you, I think you would agree with that. They're guilty in a sense because they're there, but you're saying that he is even more guilty.

44:47

And I agree with that. James three one would say that as the teacher, he's going to bear that burden of responsibility of having taught faults.

44:56

He is the heretic. They are certainly they're guilty. They're part of the problem. They're not victims, but he is the, he is the true devil or being used by the devil in this, in this sense.

45:10

And a church of that size, it's not hard to find, you know, these diamonds in the rough.

45:16

It's like, man, like Osteen's church can't be that bad because you know, Frank and Sally may over here, it's like, man, they are dynamite believers.

45:22

They really love the Lord. And that is, that is presented as the vindication as though they are the fruit of that ministry.

45:31

I would say they are the fruit despite the ministry, but it's like Osteen did not make those disciples because he can't, because I don't think he's an actual

45:41

Christian. Um, but a lot of times, so I think a lot of these churches, they're, they're, they kind of, what they do is they, they, the message is vanilla enough.

45:49

So it's, you're not going to ruffle feathers or if you ruffle feathers, it's always going to be in the direction that you want to steer the church, but it's not going to be something that really causes people to stay away.

45:59

Um, but you, you find a message that can be sort of an operating system like a platform that just enables as many

46:06

Christians to come. And, uh, you can, you've got, here's your Calvinist corner over here.

46:11

It's almost like a food court. It's like you want, you want, uh, the, the Chinese Panda restaurant, you can get

46:17

Mexican over here. It's like you, you can get all these different flavors of Christianity here in this huge food court of Christianity and a mega church when maybe one out of the 15 varieties that you can find that are actually true converted

46:31

Christians and everybody else is all different kinds of heresy that is just running wild. But they're like, Hey, they're here.

46:36

So it doesn't really matter. We're going to let it go. Yeah. That's wild. I just thinking about in a church like that, it's like, well, which home group do you want to join?

46:46

Well, the re and it's going to be based on, well, this home group here, you know, they're going to be reading Calvin's institutes and this home group over here, they're going to be playing racquetball, you know, they're, so there's, you know, this one, this one here plays ultimate

46:57

Frisbee, you know, and then, and this, and, and that's probably true again, just, just the reality of there's going to be people there who are at different levels.

47:07

But as you said, what are they, what are they getting from the pulpit? And, and, and, and what's the, the, the, the culture of the church as far as, well, the discipleship, yeah, sorry.

47:18

The, the discipleship metrics, always like the terminus point of all the discipleship metrics is, are they here or not?

47:25

If they're here, then that is, that is the win because numbers drives everything.

47:31

Um, so if you have somebody that is like more prophetic and they're, they're like identifying problems, like they're, they don't, it's like that guy's going to be trouble.

47:39

You don't want that guy around even though he might be the one that would be an agent of true reform and to make the church more faithful.

47:46

Um, it's like, they're not faithfulness is not really a, a category that drives them, or at least they define faithfulness by the fact that people are showing up.

47:55

But the scripture is not what determines their faithfulness. That's not how they measure it. Um, it's, it's measured by numbers.

48:03

And when you've got thousands of people, it's easy to think, well, God is clearly blessing this.

48:09

God obviously is happy with this. I mean, look at all the people we're reaching and I'm like, okay, what are you reaching them with?

48:15

And what are you reaching them to? Maybe it's not Jesus. Maybe it's religious entertainment with the word

48:21

Jesus attached to it, but they're not truly converted. That, that terrifies me. And as a pastor, that, that, it terrifies me to think that there might be sheep in my congregation that think they're

48:33

Christian, but they're not and they're never equipped with any tools of discernment.

48:38

They don't know enough scripture. They're not hearing anything from the pulpit that will actually confront them with their sins so they can repent and believe in Jesus.

48:45

What they're getting is, Hey, you got a hard marriage. You know, God knows what it's like. Uh, you know,

48:50

Jesus, his bride is, is trouble. So, uh, let's talk about how you're, let's talk about your marriage and then

48:56

I'll read a verse at the end and let's pray and sing a song. And I'm like, they're never actually hearing the good news of Jesus Christ and the need to repent and count the calls.

49:05

So they're not, they're not hearing that, but they feel like they have. And that's, that's the, that's the thing is really, uh, it just scares the life out of me that, that I might have to answer to God someday for that kind of ministry.

49:19

That's why there's no way I could do it. I just, my conscience could not allow it. And I fear for these pastors in these places too.

49:26

Sure. And, and you get, I read, you know, in your article, you mentioned the person kicking the football or kicking the kick in the

49:34

Bible, like it was a football, kicking it off the stage. And I mentioned in one of my, one of my church suit videos,

49:39

I said, this is a perfect metaphor for what's happening in this church. They're just kicking the word of God off the stage.

49:45

They're not seeing the irony. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, yeah, yeah. We're just going to, yeah, the Bible, we can kick it.

49:51

But also like, you know, I've, I've, I've, the, the, the, he gets us ads, that kind of stuff, which, which does paint a very, um, very broad picture of what we even mean when we say the word

50:07

Jesus, when they say he gets us, who's the, he they're talking about. And it seems to be a very, like you said, vanilla, some people like, well, what's wrong with that?

50:15

And I heard, I heard a pastor recently, defending that he gets us at, there's nothing wrong with it. It didn't say anything that wasn't true.

50:22

He did wash feet. Right. Like that was like his argument. Like, and, and, and, and, and, and my, you know, my response was, is this the, is, is this really the message?

50:34

Is this, is it, and is this the message that your church is presenting is this thing? Um, uh, but you know, your thoughts on the, the, he gets us stuff, that kind of thing.

50:44

Oh man. Uh, I, I hate it so bad. The, if you think about like, it's like,

50:52

I've, I've really, I think you got to wait, wait, wait, Michael G Jesus didn't preach hate.

50:57

So you got it. You can't say you hate it. Yeah. That's right. The word hate.

51:03

Jesus never said, if you must, uh, you must hate your father and mother and brother and sister. If you want to be my disciple, even hate your own life.

51:09

Jesus never said that. Oh goodness. But yeah, sorry. Sorry.

51:15

No, no, it's good. The, he gets us thing. Like it is a, um, such,

51:21

I mean, it's brilliant in its psychological and verbal manipulation, but that's exactly what it is.

51:28

It is a, it is a tool of propaganda. So what they, it is, it is a rebuke of conservatism disguised as evangelism.

51:40

So who is the us that Jesus supposedly gets? It is the us.

51:46

It's like, there, there's an us that Jesus loves and Jesus really favors. It's those of us that are, you know, the, uh, it's not the

51:55

MAGA hat guy. Um, and it's not the people that are opposing abortion and it's not, you know, any of those people, it's the, um, the prostitute and you know, whoever were the favored class, you know, and all those different images that were presented.

52:09

So it's like the us is more of these progressive minded people and the, the, the people that, that are being distinguished and set apart.

52:19

It's like there's an out group implied in the ad campaign. And the out group is the conservative people who are the ones that actually are walking with God faithfully.

52:29

So it is, it is, and it is a, it is a demonic inversion of what is true, but it is so subtle that a lot of Christians, they just, a lot of Christians don't think this way.

52:42

They're not thinking in terms of there's deception everywhere and I want to, to, to discern it and to be able to identify it and not believe it.

52:51

A lot of Christians think, Hey, the name of Jesus is out there. And, uh, it says he gets us.

52:56

And yeah, that's technically true. Um, and you know, but it, but it presents a sort of quasi

53:03

Jesus that it's almost as though Jesus, it creates this false dichotomy.

53:09

It's like, Jesus didn't preach hate, rather Jesus washed feet. It's like, well, Jesus did preach hate and Jesus did wash feet.

53:18

And these things are not mutually exclusive. But even then it's like, it's almost like, you know, Jesus didn't do anything other than he just went around and he just washed him feet.

53:25

Like he's just, he's just the feet washing guy. It's like, did he ever do anything else? Did he ever confront people in their sin?

53:30

Did he ever call people to repentance? Did he ever, um, you know, I was like, it's like, it's all about this feet washing thing. And I'm like, that's, that's custom made for pushing a progressive agenda onto the church.

53:40

And so it's a sermon to the church is what I think that campaign is. That's so funny.

53:46

He didn't just wash feet. That's like, I never thought about that, but that's funny that that is like, it was like he washed feet.

53:52

Yeah. But he did a whole bunch of like, he did like years and years of other stuff that lasted like 30 minutes.

54:01

So that's, that's true. And like which, which Jesus is, which Jesus are, do you, is more, are you more comfortable with?

54:09

It's like, if you think of like a Jesus going to confront you and say, Keith, here's where you need, here's, you need to repent and believe. And you know, it's like that, that Jesus is kind of,

54:17

I'm a little nervous around that guy. I was like, Hey G, uh, Hey Keith, take off your shoes, bro. Let me just, let me just wash your feet, man.

54:23

That's what I'm here for and I'll wash your feet and then we'll kick back and listen to some Bob Marley and smoke a doobie or something.

54:28

I mean, it's kind of like that's the Jesus that they're presenting. I'm like, that's not Jesus. It's the

54:34

Jesus in the tuxedo t -shirt, the one that's a little formal, but still likes to party.

54:40

You know what I'm talking about? It's the mullet Jesus people want. Yeah. The people, the one

54:45

Jesus, the people, the one people want is the, you know, that's, that's wild. Well, I, I, I did have a, uh, you know, we're coming close to an hour now and I want to thank you so much for being on.

54:57

I do have one final thing I'd like for you to speak to on this subject. I've really enjoyed talking to you. I hope you come back on the, on the show.

55:03

Again, we could, we can talk some more, but, um, on the subject of the whole issue of, okay, it seems like this, this bubble has burst.

55:12

It's almost like the housing bubble, right? That the church planning bubble has sort of bursted.

55:18

What now do you think that the answer moving forward is revitalization?

55:25

Is that, because I hear that term thrown out a lot. And that's a, that's a term I hear even more now than I used to hear church planning.

55:31

I hear people talk about revitalization. Do you think that's the answer? Do you think there's something else we need?

55:36

And, and, and I, and I forgot to ask you this earlier, but the church you're in, are you part of, cause I met you at Fight Left Feast.

55:42

Are you guys part of the CREC or are you, or cause they, cause they seem to be like a new thing.

55:48

Like they're trying to, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're putting churches everywhere, you know, and I didn't know if you, you know, yeah.

55:56

So, uh, we're part of the Southern Baptist convention and we're on the, yeah, we're on the, you know, the

56:03

Calvinist wing of the SBC. They still tolerate us. Um, but yeah, as far as what's next, uh,

56:10

I, I see the, the, it's a supply and demand thing at the very least, just practically speaking, there's, there's been so much carnage in the church plant world where a lot of church, a lot of church planters went out there with a lot of hope and a lot of faith and a lot of money.

56:24

And they kind of limped along for two or three years, or maybe they were, they flared up quickly, but then died away.

56:32

And that leaves a lot of wounded sheep, um, in the process that they just, they don't want to be a part of another church plant.

56:38

Cause the last one, you know, really, uh, burned them. So I think just a lot of pastors are less inclined because they've it's not hip.

56:47

It's not cool anymore. And because they've, there's enough horror stories out there that gives them pause.

56:53

I think it's a viable strategy. I still want to plant churches. My church still wants to plant churches. I believe in it.

56:58

Um, I think the approach needs to be, uh, we, we, we should have at the very least sober -mindedly assess lessons from the church planting craze, like, okay, how can we do this better?

57:11

Um, but I think, you know, overall that it seems as though, uh, you might say

57:18

Christianity is sort of declining in our country. I think you could certainly see that in church attendance.

57:24

It could be the dross is being burned off because a lot of there's no longer incentives for phony fake

57:30

Christians to continue attending. So it may be just as simple as they don't want to, um, um, you know, people are not coming to church anymore that they used to, but there are still the core of legit

57:42

Christians are still, you know, maybe somewhat stable. Um, but so I, I think there was still,

57:49

I think we'll, we'll see a tiny number of, there's a number of factors that will coincide here.

57:54

I think we'll see fewer churches planted because there are fewer pastors that want to do it. And if you are people that want to get involved in it,

58:00

I think the decline of this, just the church overall would probably lead to less funding available to send them out.

58:07

I think we're going to see some uptick in bivocational pastors, which unfortunately will correspond with pastors that are less trained.

58:16

Um, that, so that, that the theological downgrade, I think is somewhat inevitable, uh, by God's grace may it never be, but that seems practically that that may be the case.

58:27

And then we're also going to see a lot of church buildings that, um, are going over just an inventory of buildings.

58:34

So I think that's where the revitalization part comes in that, that, that introduces options. So it's like, do you want to start

58:40

Mr guy that wants to go into ministry and be a lead or senior pastor? You could hear, hear the options before you used to be.

58:47

It's like, well, all the positions are filled. All the seats on the bus are taken. You got to start something new. That was like the path for a lot of guys.

58:53

Now it's like, okay, that's one path, but it's going to be difficult and you might have to get part -time work or whatever.

58:59

One path. Another path could be, well, this Methodist church, they just closed their doors. And, uh, so maybe, you know, maybe those people would want to fold into a church and start something new.

59:09

And that we call that a revitalization could have congregations that are folding into one another and merging together.

59:15

Um, so there's, there's a, there's a few different ways that it could go.

59:20

And I'm not sure I have a good read on what, what it may be sort of all of the above.

59:29

Um, I don't know if there's any one thing that I think this is the future. I think the, the, if current trend lines continue, the one thing that I would say is just a prediction is that I think there is a pruning that is happening and will probably continue for the foreseeable.

59:46

Um, and I do think we're going to have a low supply of qualified pastors, uh, that sadly, um, the a lot of guys just, uh,

01:00:00

I mean, ministry is not what it was 30, 40, 50 years ago. You, there's no longer a sense of pride or credibility or a reputation respectability that you get from being a pastor.

01:00:10

And so it's going to be a different kind of man that I think will desire the office. And there's, there's a number of cascading consequences that can get can flow out of all of those different factors.

01:00:24

Yeah. Yeah. That it's interesting. You say that I, it is definitely a different landscape than it was even when

01:00:31

I started, you know, I've been pastoring for in the, in this church. Now I've been at the position

01:00:38

I'm in now for 18 years and it's not the same. It doesn't, so many things have changed. Um, and, um, but one thing

01:00:46

I have said over the years is, um, it in regard to church planning,

01:00:51

I've said that if our church ever grew to a certain size, rather than continuing to build such a massive church that, that we would want to plan.

01:01:00

So like you said, I'm not, I want to say this is to sort of mirror what you said. You're not against church planning. I'm not either.

01:01:06

I think a church plant needs to have a solid sending church that has maturity and leadership and the ability to give men guidance and to call them to account and to hold them to the standard of God's word.

01:01:18

I think that's the, the key issue here is, um, is that we want biblical churches, you know, and, and not, not a shameless plug, but I did write a book called a biblically functioning church.

01:01:28

So I'll plug my stuff. It's, uh, it's, it's not much, but it's my contribution, uh, to, to the, to the, to the

01:01:37

Christian world. I, I, I, I believe that, that the church has their, their biblical principles for, for, for managing and, and, and, and establishing and working

01:01:48

God's church and, and doing the thing, doing the work of ministry. And, and again, as we close, I want you to tell people about your book, how they can get ahold of you.

01:01:56

If they're interested in, and maybe somebody having you on the podcast or listening to your show as we're closing out, give us all those good details.

01:02:02

I gave it at the beginning, but give us one last time at the end. Uh, you know, how do people get ahold of you and get what you've, what you've done?

01:02:09

Yeah. Uh, the book that I published, uh, I came out in June of last year and it's called God's good design.

01:02:16

It's a, it's a book on biblical sexuality, but it is written at a level that I think would be a good challenge.

01:02:23

It'd be good, uh, sharpening and theological stuff for pastors. It'd be good for a pastor to use as preparation for sermon series.

01:02:29

That sort of thing could be used. I've, I've heard of, uh, you know, a Christian school that is using it for, um, uh, one of their, one of their classes for, um,

01:02:39

I believe it's undergraduate, uh, students. Um, but I know of other churches that are using it for a

01:02:45

Sunday school class or small group material. So it's, but it's a, it's a good foundational book on sexuality with a lot, a whole bunch of tender pastoral application.

01:02:54

Um, so that, uh, actually I have a copy of it here. Um, that's the cover. God's good design. Uh, it's on Amazon.

01:03:00

Um, and if you have Canon plus the audio book is available there just to listen to it.

01:03:07

Otherwise I, um, I'm pretty active on Twitter. Uh, so D just the initial

01:03:13

D in front of my name. D Michael Clary is the handle and I write on sub stack and it's the same thing. D Michael Clary .substack

01:03:20

.com. Um, and my, I have a personal website, dmichaelclary .com. It's all the same. Awesome.

01:03:27

Well, Michael, thank you again for being a part of the show today. I appreciate you bringing your experience and your wisdom to share with our audience.

01:03:34

And I want you to thank your family for giving us to giving you to us for this time. Thank you.

01:03:39

I appreciate it, Keith. Yes, sir. And I'm wanting again, thank you for being a part of Congress or how

01:03:45

I keep calling it conversation with Catholic. Thank you for being a part of your Calvinist podcast. It's hard when you change the name. Thank you for being a part of your

01:03:52

Calvinist podcast today. And I want to remind you if you enjoyed this show, please hit the thumbs up button. If you didn't like it, please hit the thumbs down button twice.

01:03:59

Also remember that if you want to support the show, you can do so by going to buymeacoffee .com slash your

01:04:05

Calvinist. Also, uh, don't forget that if you're interested in a church and you're in the

01:04:11

Jacksonville area, come visit us at Sovereign Grace Family Church. Uh, we are sgfcjacks .org.

01:04:19

Thank you again for listening to conversation. Thank you again for listening to your Calvinist podcast.

01:04:24

My name is Keith Boskey and I've been your Calvinist. May God bless you. All right.

01:04:43

I need a friendly voice with some good theology.

01:04:49

Calvinist if you're speaking. So I mix a manly drink. Pepsi and shoe polish. And I hit the

01:04:55

YouTube link. Don't say hit, that sounds violent. And I feel my troubles all melt away.

01:05:02

Oh ho! It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Boskey.

01:05:12

Beards and bow ties. Laughs till sunrise.

01:05:19

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Boskey. He's not like most