Shocking interview with pro-life leader exposes hypocrisy!

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Hi, I'm Jeff Durbin with Apologia Radio and Apologia TV with a very special broadcast.

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There is a bill right now in Oklahoma, SB 1118. The bill itself seeks to classify abortion as first degree murder and to end abortion completely in the state of Oklahoma.

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The resistance to this bill has come from very peculiar places. It's come from those who call themselves

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Republicans and they call themselves pro -life. And so what has stopped and or slowed the bill has been people who call themselves pro -life.

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Another instance of something that has slowed the bill's progress has come from the pro -life movement itself.

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This letter came out from a man named Tony who is the vice president of the National Right to Life and he's the chairman of Oklahomans for Life.

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Tony was asked by a senator how he felt about SB 1118.

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And in the letter that's going around right now from Tony, Tony essentially says that this bill,

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SB 1118, would effectively do away with the incremental policies that have been put in place in Oklahoma.

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In other words, SB 1118 would call abortion murder, would classify it as a first degree murder charge and would do away with it.

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But Tony, the vice president of the National Right to Life, says that SB 1118 would do away with the incremental policies.

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So you need to think hard about what was just said. SB 1118 would do away with abortion and call it murder and Tony, with the

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National Right to Life and Oklahomans for Life, says that it would do away with the incremental policies that we've worked so hard for.

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Yes, that's what their position is. Tony was gracious enough to agree to do a radio program with me.

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I called him up and asked him if he'd like to be on Apology Air Radio to discuss SB 1118. Some of you guys,

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I think, are going to be startled by some of the things that Tony says. Very startled, to put it mildly.

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And some of you guys may wonder, Jeff, why weren't you confronting him? Why weren't you challenging him more?

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And I want to tell you why. I wanted you all to know and to hear about all of the things that we've known about for a long time.

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And that is that the pro -life movement is a failure in terms of being a real

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Christian approach to ending abortion in our nation. I wanted you to hear it from Tony himself.

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And so we're going to have the entire interview for you right now with Tony. Again, he's the vice president of the

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National Right to Life. He is the chairman of Oklahomans for Life. And he is one of the reasons this bill was slowed.

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It was part of his opposition. So here's the interview right now with Tony. Hi, Tony.

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It's Jeff Durbin with Apology at Church and Apology Air Radio. Yes, Jeff. How are you?

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Very, very good. Thank you so much. Yes, sir. Where is area 602,

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Jeff? Actually, we're right in Tempe, Tempe, Arizona, which is, we're like 10 minutes from the

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Phoenix Airport. Okay. Yeah. Great. Well, as I said,

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I really appreciate you spending the time right now to talk with us for a minute. And I saw today you are with Oklahomans for Life.

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And you told me on the phone that you're also the vice president of the National Right to Life. Correct? Yes, sir.

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How long have you been doing that for? Well, I've been the state chairman of Oklahomans for Life for 38 years.

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And I've been the vice president of National Right to Life for 31 years,

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I think. Oh, wow. Wow. So, I wanted to chat with you about what's happening in Oklahoma right now.

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You said you were just, you're just actually leaving the state capitol? Yes, sir. Uh -huh. Just left the capitol.

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Okay. And so, in Oklahoma right now, there's a bill that's been proposed, SB1118. And from what

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I understand, this bill seeks to classify abortion as first degree murder.

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Am I correct about that? Yes, sir. Okay. And how do you, how do you feel about SB1118?

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Well, there are two versions of the bill. The bill as it came out of committee, and then a different version that the author has filed as a floor substitute.

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The bill, the bill as it came out of committee would repeal a law that is in effect, a pro -life law that's in effect in Oklahoma currently called the

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Heartbeat Informed Consent Act. The bill, the version that has been filed as a floor substitute for the bill would repeal the

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Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act. Both of those are important pro -life laws that have been in effect for several years and are saving lives in Oklahoma, and we anticipate that they will continue to save lives in the future.

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Okay. Thank you, Tony. Now, there's been a little bit of a controversy surrounding that explanation, and maybe you can address it.

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So, the controversy, I guess, in its substance is that the SB1118 would criminalize abortion and call it murder, in essence doing away with it, calling it a criminal act, but your concern is that it would do away with sort of the incremental laws that have been put into place that have saved some lives.

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How would you address those concerns with those who would say that this one bill would do away with abortion and criminalize it, and we wouldn't need the incremental laws if abortion was criminalized?

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How would you address that concern? Well, SB1118 were enjoined and prevented from going into effect, and then the existing statutes, the

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Heartbeat Informed Consent Act or the Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act would be implicated in the injunction, and those laws would cease to have effect.

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So, our concern is that the lives that are currently being saved by those two existing laws would not be saved going forward if the courts follow their usual pattern and strike down a law of this sort as unconstitutional, it would carry with it in being struck down the existing pro -life statutes that are in effect and that are saving lives.

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Okay. Are you behind that sort of a movement?

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Is that something that you stand with, a kind of movement that ultimately wants to end abortion by calling it first -degree murder and criminalizing it?

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Well, we believe that we have to play the hand that we were dealt by the

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U .S. Supreme Court. We have to work within the system of government that our founding fathers gave us, the bad with the good, the separation of powers affected by the legislative and executive branches of government.

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And given what the U .S. Supreme Court rulings on abortion have been, we believe that we have to make progress in a very careful, reasoned, logical manner in order to keep advancing the pro -life cause and that if we promote legislation which the court has clearly indicated it will strike down, then we lose ground.

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So we believe that making incremental progress is a very positive thing to do and that it's much better than having to go back to square one because we've gone for the total ultimate goal and had that struck down.

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Okay. Thanks for the explanation, Tony. I really appreciate that. So at this point, so we can kind of understand the methodology and the goals in mind,

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Oklahomans for Life and the National Rights of Life Committee would not want to stand on the position that this is just murder, first -degree murder, and we want to end it today.

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There really is more of a step towards incremental steps and a gradual moving towards ending abortion ultimately as murder.

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Is that the position? Am I correctly understanding? Abortion obviously is the intentional killing of an innocent human being who is alive, and it's the most heinous, atrocious sort of action that one human being can commit against another, but as a technical, legal matter, it has never been murder under law.

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We believe that the unborn child should be protected by law and that abortion should not be legal or not legal except perhaps where it were the unavoidable result of an action that were necessary to save the life of the mother.

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Okay. So it's just so we can kind of understand the different mindsets. It really isn't the position of Oklahomans for Life or the

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National Rights of Life that we ought to call abortion murder. That's not really the path that we want to take to get to the ending of abortion.

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Is that what I'm understanding? Make sure I understand your position clearly. Well, murder is a technical, legal term.

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Abortion is obviously killing a human being. Abortion is obviously homicide, but murder depends on circumstances and legal definitions that get pretty technical.

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Okay. Thank you, Tony, for that explanation. Tony, you're a Christian, I'm assuming, fighting for this pro -life cause.

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Am I correct? Yes, Pastor, I am indeed. Okay. Well, I appreciate you telling me that.

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So with your Christian convictions, do you feel the same, or do you feel like there's a separation of this in your own mind, where as a believer you would approach this with Scripture, maybe with a different position, calling it murder against the law of God, versus how we're to approach it in the political process?

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Are there kind of two mindsets at work with the National Rights of Life and Oklahomans for Life? Is that how the process works on a regular basis for you?

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I don't think there being any difference between my personal view of abortion and what

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I think the law should say. I think the lives of unborn children ought to be protected by law, and that abortion should not be legal.

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I think that personally, and both as an officer of Oklahomans for Life and as National Rights of Life.

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Okay. Well, I appreciate that. When you approach the issue of SB, you said 1118,

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I was saying 1118. 1118, simplify it. When you approach that issue, how do you feel about those types of works towards legislation?

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If a bill was introduced, say tomorrow, that was, it's first degree murder, it's considered homicide, that it's called murder and it's criminalized, and you were able to have some protections in place where if a court battle ensued, you would not lose the other protections.

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Would that be a bill you would get behind that calls it first degree murder and criminalizes it? My heart would certainly be in support of a bill from a legal standpoint, a bill that would not implicate the existing warrant to be struck down.

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The reality we are working under, because everything in the pro -life effort is undertaken, is the

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United States Supreme Court and their various decisions on the abortion issue, and we have to be able to have five justices on the

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U .S. Supreme Court who are pro -life and who will uphold pro -life laws.

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Ultimately, we certainly want to have a law that would prohibit abortion and protect the lives of unborn children.

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But to pass such a law when it is clear that we don't have a majority on the

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U .S. Supreme Court that would uphold such a law is counterproductive in the sense that defeats at the level of the highest court have the effect of demoralizing the pro -life cause and causing legislators to feel that it's not a worthwhile enterprise to continue to pass pro -life legislation.

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It is much more beneficial, we believe, to continue to make progress and to continue to undermine

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Roe v. Wade through gradual incremental gains in protecting more and more unborn babies.

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Okay. Let me see how you would respond to this argument from the other side. Wouldn't a law like SB 1118 begin the process of ending abortion in terms of actually creating a fight with the

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Supreme Court over this issue? And so I understand the argument for incrementalism and those sorts of things and the concern that the court would strike it down, but the opposition to maybe your position on this would say that SB 1118 would begin that fight today against the

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Supreme Court if they tried to strike it down. What would you say to that? Well, the fight's been going on for 43 years and it's a very intense and very constant day and it would be harmful to the pro -life.

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So let me ask you, Tony, because you probably would know these numbers, how many babies die via abortion a day in Oklahoma?

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6 ,000 a year? Okay. Okay. So 6 ,000 a year.

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Those on the side of SB 1118 would argue that we would have to do everything that we possibly could to protect the lives of those 6 ,000 babies and we must do it immediately to preserve their life because their lives are at stake.

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What would you say to that position that we have to stand on our principles?

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I'm sorry, can I interrupt you for one second? Sure. Are we on live or are you taping? We're recording.

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Recording. Okay. The reason I ask is that I must have gone through a dead spot on the turnpike because your question did not come through clearly and I could not understand what you asked.

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Okay. No problem. I'll ask it again. By the way, is your window rolled down or there's a lot of background noise like wind is blowing?

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I'm sorry. No, it's not. Okay. The windows are all uptight. Okay. No problem. We'll work with that.

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We'll work with that, Tony. No problem at all. I'm sorry. No, it's fine. It's coming through pretty good.

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Let me ask the question again. The people who are proponents of SB 1118 would argue that because we have 6 ,000 babies dying in Oklahoma a year, we must do everything we possibly can to stop them from being murdered today.

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And so legislation, the laws we fight for must be consistent with what our views are as Christians, that this is murder and it must be stopped immediately.

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And so they would argue that taking long -term incremental steps, not calling it first degree murder, not approaching it as a criminal issue, is not helping the 6 ,000 babies that will die this year.

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And what would you say to that opposition? We don't need 89.

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We have separation of powers. We have a court system that has the laws.

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And we have to appeal to the human instincts of judges and legislators and the public.

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And we have to appeal to both our elected officials and our black -robed judges and the public at large.

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Well, I appreciate that explanation. Now, I want to talk to you, Tony, as a brother in Christ at this point, now that I've gotten a chance to kind of hear your point of view.

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And I want to tell you just how grateful I am that you have spent so much time in your life standing for the lives of these children, and that I'm grateful for that.

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You have been in this fight much, much longer than I have, and so I'm grateful for all that you've done to stand for the lives of these babies.

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Maybe you can address this with me. My great concern as a minister of the gospel is that I see abortion as a gospel issue.

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It's an issue of sin. It's an issue of murder. And when I think about how Jesus would address the issue of abortion in a nation,

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I have a hard time thinking of Jesus really approaching the issue in an incremental kind of way, just trying to see if we can take little pieces out here and there.

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I think Jesus would call it murder. And I think Jesus would address it as murder. I think he would address

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Herod, or he would address Pontius Pilate as murder. And I think if we're going to win the hearts and minds of people, we have to do it through the gospel, which means calling them to repentance.

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So what would you say to a guy like me who says that a bill like SB 1118 is most consistent with a biblical worldview and the gospel, and it would do far more in winning the hearts and minds of people by calling abortion what it is?

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I mean, I would think that's our ultimate aim, is to end abortion and to call it murder and to criminalize it, ultimately.

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What would you say to that position? I think abortion is the ultimate goal in this world in which it isn't the decisions of pastors or church -established public policy, it's the decisions of elected officials in legislative branch of government and of judges in the judiciary who determine what our secular laws are, and that's the reality we face, and that's the context in which we function.

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So you would see—go ahead, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, forgive me. No, I just—that was all.

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Okay, okay. We have to do the best we can within those circumstances.

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Okay. Well, Tony, thank you for that explanation. So you would see a separation of authority in terms of—you would see

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Christ and His authority as total over the church, but you would see civil government as a distinct realm that isn't necessarily supposed to be obedient to Christ and to God's law.

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Specifically, you would see a distinction there? Oh, sure, yeah.

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I'm just making sure I understand the position. You would see Jesus and His authority as full and total, reigning over the church, but you do see civil government as a distinct organization and sphere of authority that is not necessarily to be obedient to Jesus in terms of this law, murder, those sorts of things that you would see as a distinction.

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Well, yes, as a different sphere, and some people who operate in the arena of public policy are motivated by the same commitment to religious reality that you and I accept, but some do not, and yet among some of those who do not, some of them still are willing to protect the lives of unborn children for perhaps what might be referred to as humanitarian reasons.

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They recognize that abortion is not a victimless crime. An innocent human being is killed every time an abortion is committed, and they would vote for pro -life legislation for that reason rather than for religious reasons.

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So, okay, that helps a lot, actually, tremendously. So, when we pursue ending abortion in our nation and addressing this pro -life issue, we want to pursue it in a different kind of language, you're suggesting, that would be more helpful and conducive to getting rid of this evil.

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We wouldn't want to use, necessarily, biblical terminology in that arena because it wouldn't work in a secular context.

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We don't want to address it in that way. You think that would be actually hurtful to the cause if we use biblical language and stand, you know, as Christians with biblical terminology, you think it would be easier to do away with this in a different way?

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I do. I think that's a fair statement. I think that some in the public policy arena would not be receptive to our presenting biblical reasons, but they would be receptive to our presenting arguments based on biology and science and medicine.

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And we need to expand the universe of those public officials who would be receptive to our arguments.

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Okay. I think another way to say it might be that there's a distinction, a distinction for the three of us in the pro -life effort between our motivation, my motivation is religious and spiritual 100 percent, but there is a distinction between our motivation and our argumentation when we try to persuade public officials to protect the unborn child.

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Yes. And it's more productive in the public policy arena generally to talk about the humanity of the unborn child.

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The biological development of the baby in the womb. Tony, that's really helpful.

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That's very helpful. That's very helpful. More helpful. Yeah. No, that's very helpful to understand. So I can understand how the pro -life, because you've been doing this for such a long time, and the pro -life movement really wants to approach this not in terms of really like saying, repent and believe the gospel, abortion is murder, but we need to approach it sort of in a sense through a back door.

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That's more helpful. Sure. Sure.

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Yeah, yeah. I'll say it again. I'm sorry we have such a difficult time here. So I can understand, because like I said, you've been in this movement for much longer than I have, and you've been with the pro -life cause for so long, and so really what you're suggesting is what's most helpful for us and be more conducive to actual growth in this area is if we don't approach the issue in terms of like as a

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Christian, repent and believe this is murder, turn from your sin to God, but we really approach it really in a sense kind of in a back door kind of way where we're going to use language that's more helpful for them and try to at least soften it in a sense so that we can get to our ultimate ends, but we're not going to use necessarily the dogmatic

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Christian language of like repent and believe the gospel. We don't want to do that. Right.

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Yes. You expressed that very well. Okay. You know, if we can get the officials to vow to unite and that each cell of that new human life has 46 chromosomes, 23 of which come from the mother and 23 of which come from the father, that those chromosomes when viewed under an electron microscope are uniquely human, they are different than the chromosomes that comprise any other living being, and then proceed from there to make the argument that no human being has the right to intentionally take the life of another member of our human family, and then progress to, you know, what ultimately is the second great commandment, love thy neighbor as thyself, and no, we just don't have the right to kill another human being.

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Okay. Thank you, Tony. You've been so gracious to me today. I really appreciate it. Two more questions that I think will really help me, and just in terms of understanding where the national right to life kind of comes from and how you guys want to approach this, because again,

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I'm fairly new to this fight. I mean, I've obviously been pro -life since I've been a believer, but I'm fairly new to this specific fight over the last three years.

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God has actually used our church to save over 50 babies from death. So it's been a huge blessing, but it's, yeah, praise

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God. It's been really a blessing, but it's interesting for me to kind of understand how you guys, operate, and how you guys think we should go about doing this more effectively.

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So two questions I think people would want to know is, number one, and it's a tough one, and so I'd love to hear how you feel about this, are women who have abortions murderers?

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We do not believe that a woman who has an abortion, we definitely believe that the cause that we've worked on through the years to pass to those who commit abortions, but the woman herself, we do not believe should be prosecuted.

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Very often women are pressured into getting abortions. The leading cause of death, this is a striking statistic, the leading cause for pregnant women in the

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United States is murder. They are killed by a boyfriend or a husband who has pressured them to get an abortion.

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The woman has refused and has said she wants to carry her baby to term. Outrageous reality.

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Okay, well that helps a lot, Tony. So we would say the abortionist, we would say that's murder, we want to have him prosecuted for murder, but the woman, not so much.

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We don't want to go that route. Right. We don't believe that the woman should be prosecuted.

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So, okay. You know, maybe it's a fine, we would not say the abortionist ought to be prosecuted for murder, we would say the abortionist ought to be prosecuted for killing the unborn child or for homicide, depends on lots of circumstances.

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Okay. Well, one last question. How do you, when you approach this as a believer in the fight, how do you argue with or face the opposition when you are not necessarily standing on scriptural arguments and standing on the word of God, and you face an atheist or an agnostic who's a liberal, they're on the left, they're fighting for the pro -choice cause, and you say,

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I believe that human life is valuable and we ought to protect the unborn, but you're not standing on that necessarily from a scriptural basis, you're trying to go other directions and find other routes in.

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And they say to you as an atheist or as an agnostic, they say to you simply, well, I believe that we should be able to kill the unborn, and I don't care that it is alive,

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I don't care that it is a human, I believe that we have a right to kill humans in our womb. How do you argue that point with the unbeliever when you're not, when we're not in this pro -life cause allowed to really stand on scripture?

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How would you respond to that? Well, when somebody acknowledges that, but says that we have a right to kill that unborn baby,

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I'm not sure there is any way to reach them, and then to say, but I think

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I ought to be able to do that if I want to.

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Okay. This, actually, the last question, Tony, and again, I'm so grateful you spent time with us today. One question popped up in my mind,

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I'm just trying to make sure I can think consistently through this in terms of what you guys say and you believe is most effective.

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Just, if an argument was thrown back to me, and I was with the pro -life movement in this cause,

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I would want to know how you would suggest answering it. If a 19 -year -old man participated in the intentional killing of a 17 -year -old boy, what would

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I'm sorry, I just went through a dead zone there. Oh, no problem. Let me ask it again.

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I'm sorry. Okay. So, just in terms of how the pro -life cause would want to address this concern if this was thrown back at you, in terms of an apologetic for it, let's put it that way.

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If a 19 -year -old teenager participates in the intentional killing of a 17 -year -old teenager, according to law, what is that classified at?

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Is that murder? Well, it would depend on the circumstances.

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It was an intentional killing, it wasn't self -defense. Would that be called murder? Well, for different categories.

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Well, how do you feel about it, Tony? Do you think premeditated, intentional killing of an innocent human being is murder?

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Generally speaking. Okay. All right. Well, that helps, Tony. Tony, you have been very helpful today.

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And I'm thankful that you spent time talking with us. And I really appreciate you spending so much time with me on the phone and doing this radio program with me.

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It really helps a lot in terms of understanding where you're coming from and how you approach this fight.

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And again, I am grateful for all the years that you have spent standing for the unborn.

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So, I thank you very, very much. Pastor, thank you. And if I might just add one note on that last question.

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Sure. You might know no state in the

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United States decides legally as murder prior to Roe v.

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Wade. And what we have been seeking to do for these last 43 years is restore legal protection for the lives of unborn children as it existed prior to Roe v.

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Wade, the distinction without a human being.

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Okay. Well, maybe we can have a talk another time. Tony, I wanted to make sure today

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I spent time talking to you and understanding where you're coming from and give you a chance to say it on the radio program for us all to hear.

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So, I'm grateful for you spending time and hope you have a safe rest of your trip. Okay? Thank you,

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Pastor. Thank you very much. Thank you, Tony. I enjoyed talking to you. Thanks. So, there was the interview.

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I have to confess, as a pastor, as a believer, as a

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Christian, it was hard for me to do that interview. It was one of the hardest interviews I've ever done. It was hard to not say something.

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It was hard to not point out the glaring inconsistencies as a Christian. Not wanting to call, to really call abortion murder.

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Not wanting to end it immediately. Saying that there is a realm over here that's the

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Christian realm and a realm over here that Jesus isn't necessarily in charge of. We don't speak into it necessarily as consistent

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Christians. That was all hard to hear. And I want to say something here. If we love our neighbors, if we love our neighbors, if we desire to see abortion ended, if we want people's hearts to change as Christians, that only happens because the gospel.

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Only God opens the eyes of the blind. Only God gives hearts of flesh where there are hearts of stone.

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And it says in Romans 1 that the gospel is the power of God for salvation. The only way we are ever going to end abortion in our nation is if we speak consistently as Christians and we proclaim the gospel.

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We can't approach this issue with neutrality. And we certainly can't approach this issue playing around with the terminology so that we don't say, that's murder, stop killing these babies.

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We're never going to end abortion in our nation if we continue the fight the way this failed pro -life process has.

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We have to approach this issue as believers, as followers of Jesus Christ. And we have to call our nation to repentance and faith.

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And we need to focus in upon legislation that calls abortion what it actually is, murder.

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And we tell people stop killing babies today. Not 10 years from now, not 20 years from now.

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How many more babies will die with these failed pro -life policies? How many more babies will die?

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10 million more? 20 million more? 50 million more? How many more babies have to die before Christians stand up, honor

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Christ as Lord, and say stop killing these babies. We demand it now. Repent and believe the gospel.

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We're not waiting for you to end abortion someday. We want it stopped now.

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That, brothers and sisters, is the only way we can faithfully love

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Jesus and our neighbors. We call them to faith in Jesus Christ.

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Jesus is God. He lived a perfect and righteous life. He died for sinners and rose from the dead.

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And He commands men and women everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. We will never, ever see transformation in our society if we don't start acting like Jesus and Paul in terms of calling people to die to self and to come to Christ.

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Being a Christian is hard. It's one of the hardest things in this nation right now to live consistently as a

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Christian. It costs you everything to follow Jesus faithfully.

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And it's going to cost us everything to follow Jesus faithfully in this area of abortion.

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We need to confront these kinds of policies and leaders as Christians.

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We need to say no more of this slippery, squishy nonsense.

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We stand on the rock and we're calling people to come to Christ.