February 13, 2020 Show with Dr. James R. White on “Must One be a Calvinist to be Saved? A Response to the Gospel of Doctrinal Perfectionism”

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:05

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

00:10

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

00:23

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:31

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

00:38

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

00:50

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

00:58

And now here's your host Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

01:09

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth.

01:15

We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 13th day of February 2020.

01:28

And I am thrilled to have received a birthday present a day early in having

01:35

James White here on the program today. As many of you know our friendship goes back many years back to 1995 to be precise and we have worked together on arranging debates and conferences all these years since and he continues to prove to be my one of my very favorite guests and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dr.

01:59

James R. White. Ah you even got my middle initial in there that's uh that'll probably help people steal my identity.

02:07

Well I don't want to have you confused there are there is at least one other evangelical author

02:14

I know of named James. Yeah James E. White I think it's Emery isn't it? That's right it is it is yeah so we want to make sure uh in fact uh

02:21

James Emery White might be furious if people were thinking you or him today uh but uh who knows.

02:29

Not bad okay well all right. Well uh for my knowledge he's not a Calvinist so. Oh well I have no idea.

02:35

As much as as much as we will be attempting to refute hyper -Calvinism or perfectionist

02:44

Calvinism we will still be seeking to defend what Calvinism truly is today and that is the topic today by the way for those of you who did not see any of the promotions ahead of time the theme to be precise is must one be a

03:02

Calvinist to be saved a response to the gospel of doctrinal perfectionism and one of the things that basically pushed me to want to discuss this today with you is that when

03:20

I had Justin Peters come here to Carlisle Pennsylvania very recently to speak at my biannual

03:29

Iron Trip and Zion radio pastor's luncheon there was one person in particular who will remain nameless who kept pestering me to ask me why

03:40

Justin Peters refuses to answer the question is the Arminian gospel a false gospel and uh this is uh something that as you know because you've confronted this often yourself there are there is a minority amongst those who at least profess to believe in the historic doctrines of the tulip that you and I share total depravity unconditional election limited atonement irresistible grace and perseverance and preservation of the saints some of these folks are so radical that they no longer call themselves

04:19

Calvinist because they believe Calvin is in hell because Calvin didn't agree with them on this very subject that we are addressing but they believe if you do not believe in those doctrines of the tulip you are damned you have no hope for salvation and not only are those who are opposed to these doctrines damned those who profess to believe in these doctrines but believe they have

04:48

Arminian brothers and sisters in Christ are also damned of course this is I'm broadbrushing a bit here but because there are probably many different sects within this uh doctrinal perfectionism camp but if you could pick up where I left off well as I said it's really hard to uh uh say exactly uh it's not like there is a particular leader or a spokesperson um you you have some elements of historic uh what's called hyper -Calvinism uh even though a lot of historic hyper -Calvinists would not have been nearly as brusque or as uh uh bombastic shall we say as many of the uh individuals today

05:34

I'm afraid that social media has uh in essence provide a lot of flame and fire and fuel and and also made it much much more of a simplistic thing um it's easy on on Twitter or Facebook to uh dismiss somebody it was a little bit harder back in the olden days you had to actually look somebody in the eye and and deny their profession of faith in Christ uh based upon a what could be a very small disagreement with you in comparison to uh how big a disagreement you could have with a

06:10

Muslim or someone like that um and so I've I have to wonder if some of this isn't just the the fact that we have a lot of people who live the majority of their religious existence uh in cyberspace and uh that's that's um you know for some people it's been a it's been a godsend

06:35

I mean if you if you're the only guy running a radar station in Siberia uh I suppose that's that's better than nothing but for a lot of people they have traded in the reality of living with other people and interacting with other people for this strange world of of online uh theological gaming

06:57

I think it might be might be a good way of looking at it and so it's not like you can go okay here's this book and this book defines this movement there and and that's been one of the things it's made hard to respond to in some ways is because when you start when you even use the term theological perfectionism

07:15

I go no no no no no I don't I don't mean that I mean this and then they will you know just change a slight little little bit of something but it it comes out very plainly if you basically ask people so do you believe that a person uh who professes um the doctrine of the trinity the inspiration of scripture uh the death row resurrection of Jesus Christ says that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone and that they are not trusting in their own works to save them if they at the same time say that Jesus Christ died to save every sinner that that last statement means everything before that has no salvific impact and if they say yes our biggest one of our biggest mission fields are arminians or synergists of any kind uh then then you you get the idea of what doctrinal perfectionism is because what they're what they're in essence saying is you can profess uh 98 of the gospel but if you don't see how the last two percent relates to everything else that came before uh then believing all the rest of believing all the core stuff all the everything in first corinthians chapter 15 where where paul summarizes the gospel you can you can believe all that stuff but that's not enough if you do not see all the possible ramifications the in -depth theological connections that then would allow you to understand the atonement with more consistency etc etc you've got to have the whole thing i don't see how they can escape this charge of doctrinal perfectionism and of course i like i think one of the reasons they try to avoid it is i turn it around and i will say okay well obviously belief in the doctrine of the trinity is required i think i could probably come up with some questions about the doctrine of the trinity you've never even thought of before um so if you get that answer wrong does that mean you've been unsaved all this time and so um on a real practical level i think this is this has been a uh you know back back when i first encountered reform theology which wasn't all that long ago 1980 well i can't even put it that way really when i when i first embraced it knowing exactly what it was i was embracing what it was going to cost to do that and and things like that actually my dad went to the bible institute he he had a systematic theology that was written by a presbyterian so i had in essence uh you know gotten hold of a fair amount of reform theology without knowing the terminology didn't have the language basically to to express that but uh when when i first started you know i read my first r .c.

10:30

sproul book when i asked r .c. into my heart um and that was before i met him and then then once i did then that was that was even better i would love to hear r .c.

10:43

sproul's response if you actually said to him that you invited oh yeah yeah yeah yeah i it would depend on who was listening and whether we just finished a real nice uh real nice dinner on a cruise ship in hawaii like we did once so uh but anyway um uh back when i that first happened for me and i first started seeing the how these things were connected together that wasn't a super cool thing to do in fact we lost and it was it was almost death for for the ministry so uh it wasn't cool to be reformed back then and then something happened you know over the next 10 years or so and and calvinism started becoming cool and i think what we may be seeing is the result of people embracing what looked to them like something that's cool uh but not but not being challenged to live it out not being challenged to recognize their own their own pilgrimage i mean i know that i was a christian long before i became a calvinist and that meant that at that time i did not see how certain elements of god's truth related to other certain elements of god's truth but let me give an example uh i remember in i think i was uh you can tell we're getting old chris when you sit here and go now what decade was that let me see now um i don't know if you started doing that but i i certainly have and uh in fact in fact i've watched you argue with rich back and forth for about 15 minutes in the dividing line you're a dude yeah well it only gets worse with the passage of time um but i remember somewhere i think in seminary was when i first got hit with the reality of differing ecclesiologies especially in regards to the plurality of elders church and again i was just raised you know with one tradition you had a pastor and you had a board of deacons and the board of deacons hired and fired pastors and that's just how it was and uh you know i didn't know there was anything else and i knew there were i knew there were other denominations but i was raised in a very fundamentalist context and the basic idea was we're the real christians and if there are any christians in those groups well that's just an illustration of god's grace um and so i had never even given it another thought until i'm reading the new testament and there's these you know it's elders is plural look at that how'd that happen and start reading and realize wow uh there's a number of different views here and i've actually been wrong um for most of my life well okay isn't the church an important thing isn't isn't uh honoring christ by following his commands as far as the the church and given by the spirit of god isn't that important uh so am i going to say ah that's when i was saved well i would hope that since then i've learned some other things i mean don't don't fall off your chair chris but i've actually been reading some books on eschatology recently i had a feeling try not to gasp uh you know but um and and what if i come to a conclusion that hey you know what what i was i mean i already did once come to a conclusion what i had been raised with was insufficient uh what if i come to a conclusion beyond that so does that mean i wasn't a christian all along what all this does of course is require us to have some serious definitions as to what is definitional of a christian confession what is not um and then differentiating between um the the core issues and then seeing all the necessary interrelationships that exist between divine truths that should be something we're that we're pursuing throughout our lives that should be something that is a part of of the process of of growth and we are to grow in the grace and knowledge of the lord jesus christ obviously if you're to grow in the knowledge of jesus that means you don't know everything there is to know about him at the initial moment of salvation but there are uh fundamental uh truths that are definitional and then there are you know i i saw a guy what oh that's right uh this this one guy i don't even want to give him uh put his name out there to give him youtube hits because he only gets about 30 or 40 anyways um but there's this this guy that just does video after video about me an older fellow and um at one point uh he was talking about how uh i call james white called these things adiaphora as if i made that up i mean adiaphora of course is a term that's been used since like the days of augustine um for issues that do not define the faith but are issues that are debatable things we can discuss things like that but since i've used the term that i guess i'm so old i made it up i don't i don't know but uh there are adiaphora there are things that we that godly men can and have disagreed on and unfortunately on the one hand you have a lot of christians today who go yeah you know i'm not going to worry about stuff it's just me and jesus i'm not i'm not gonna i don't want to be pushed to think through the consistency of how i view the church and how that relates to how i view um end time things or how i view uh the law of god i want to put i i want to be able to keep all of those in their nice little separate compartments and i'm going to get mad at anybody that tries to force me to stick them together and be consistent so that's the one side then the other side is you've got to see how all these things relate and if you differ from me on almost any of these things then i'm really wondering if you're even in the kingdom at all and i've used illustration often you you draw the circle so tightly around yourself that you have to stand on one foot to remain in it yourself and you end up cutting everybody else off and so it has been my experience that these people that get into doctrinal perfectionism are almost always um loners they're lone wolves and the only fellowship they get online with other lone wolves until they cross each other and then they anathematize each other but in other words they're not they're not churchmen they're not involved in the fellowship of the church they're not they they can't get along with anybody um i can think of one guy he wasn't a doctrinal perfectionist to the nth degree uh but i know i know one fellow uh that you would know fairly well as well uh who uh to my knowledge wasn't in the same church for more than one year uh without without splitting that church and that that's not much of a that's that's a pretty horrible thing to have to say about somebody but if that's if that's the history that's what a lot of these folks are like too because once you start making these issues fellowship issues where you have to agree with me on every single point um in the exact same way that i see it then you you really destroy any possibility of having meaningful uh fellowship within the church so uh when reform people do this um and it i suppose there might i mean i'm i've certainly been told many many times that the very fact that i'm a calvinist means i can't possibly go into heaven so there are forms of doctoral perfectionism outside of reform theology obviously but it's particularly ugly when you weaponize something like god's sovereignty and the perfection of christ's work it's just um it it's bad it it it it reflects on everybody uh even though hopefully well okay i can't say i would like to think that people would be able to recognize the difference but sometimes there is such a strong animus toward reform theology that i have found a lot of people outside of our ranks who are more than happy to make these people our representatives because you know they're they're the worst uh they're they're the they tend to be extremely unloving and unkind and and sharp and and argue they love to argue and and things like that so um yeah it's um it's not exactly hyper calvinism but it it's actually a lower level in my opinion than the than the hypers were long ago because at least the hypers or the hypers that we have for example in places like denmark um i'm sorry the netherlands netherlands um those hypers have a theological uh foundation in a sense that maybe we can talk about it it's it's i was over there year before last it was really strange to get exposed to to that form of modern hyper calvinism but well i'd love to uh i would love to hear about it i know that in my own experiences i have met people from uh hyper calvinistic backgrounds that are opposite ends of the spectrum they both would agree that evangelism is not a means by which god and his sovereignty regenerates his elect they would say that's an arminian understanding that god uses means even of the proclaiming of the gospel the way the way that they were in polar opposite uh ends uh the one group i'm thinking of immediately who are not all uh but are flooded with hyper calvinists in fact i know that you spoke at a church that was not under the category of hyper calvinism in this denomination and i'm speaking i'm speaking of the primitive baptists right uh then you have uh and and they believe that since evangelism has nothing to do with regeneration or salvation they believe that there are pagans who have never come to know christ on this earth who will be in heaven and then you have on the other extreme people like in the the netherlands reform church the denomination that dr joel beakey left uh primarily because of hyper calvinism there they have a much smaller view of the elect and believe that the the number of those who will be in heaven is a lot smaller than most christians think in fact i have been told by people who are former members of the netherlands reform church that you could have a church that has a thousand people or more in it uh of course that would have to be somewhere in grand rapids in what's called the bible belt in in the netherlands i had not heard of that myself but there is a literal bible belt that stretches across the netherlands they believe that if you have a thousand even if you have a thousand more members in the in the congregation they have such a small view of the number of elects that they that typically you will only see a handful of people receive the lord's supper and even in a church that large yeah yeah that's what i was actually going to mention is that was one of the first things first topics of discussion that i had when i got to the netherlands because a lot of the evangelicals that i was working with who are seeking to evangelize a lot of them came out of those churches and aside from some of their incredibly strict dress issues totally black and white no gray no color black and white that's uh paul washer got into trouble because he had a gray tie uh it was serious i'm serious i'm absolutely serious um but it is the issue is illustrated in the lord's supper and the fact that in a let's say you had a congregation of of 100 people there might be three people who partake and that wouldn't even include all the elders and the idea behind it is that there needs to be a a perfection of repentance and who's going to claim that they have obtained this this level of a perfection of of repentance and so that you know you have a command of christ and yet you end up taking one element of theology you would think that in a reformed context you would recognize in light of the imputed righteousness of christ that to to make then it a necessary element that i have to have some type of perfect repentance in of myself would just immediately strike them as a very odd and and untrue thing um but this is this is what happens uh with once it once it in that domination gets off track it's either going to get reformed or it's going to just uh codify its errors and then and move farther and farther from there and so here here you have this strange contradiction of a church proclaiming so much of the truth and yet at the same time completely missing um something as basic as as this to the point where there's no assurance of salvation and and um i when i came back from the netherlands i was thinking about doing a series against calvinism uh just simply to to lay some of these things out and to emphasize the importance of supper and and again balance in one's theology uh because christ plainly commanded uh his people to partake and to do remembrance of him and then demand that they somehow have to produce some kind of perfect uh repentance to be able to even do that is a demonstration of just how imbalanced a group can become so yeah the that issue of evangelism however is an interesting aspect because if you if you think that armenians need to be evangelized then evangelism becomes primarily a doctrinal issue a doctrinal fight with people who already agree that the bible's word of god i mean it obviously these types of folks don't get out much because i mean really they can't they can't be out on the streets uh they can't be out dealing with with real people in the real world because if if you can actually think that having a debate uh about the extent of the atonement is definitional of evangelism then who are you talking to i mean that the 99 of the people you're talking to don't even know what atonement means uh you've got you've got so much more basic information that needs to be communicated you have to take the basic fact that god's self -revelation has gotten through these people they're suppressing the knowledge of god you've got to call them to faith and repentance in christ um and and then the the issues of what was god's purpose in the atonement i i would not suggest for a second that that's not vitally important i have written on the subject and i've preached on the subject and and i have have said to the church we we need to have a theology of the cross that is biblical not emotional that's that's that's comes from theology not from from some type of of feelings and and sickly sweet syrupy uh type of songs that we we tend to have about these types of it can't be sentimentality it it has to be sound and we have to see how this relates christ high priesthood relates to um hebrews and and to the purpose of god and all these things are are beautiful but to say and you need before you even have forgiveness of sins and eternal life to have a full and proper and balanced understanding of how the high priesthood of christ relates to the intention of the trinity and the justification by faith and if that's the standard then again there have been very very very very few christians uh down through the ages and there are some people who will go that far and then there are other people that i have talked to only over the past few years uh who will you know very directly say i was not saved until i adopted this position so they they may have been uh you know serving in the church baptized taking the lord's supper married in the church but they weren't saved until they adopted this position that basically says almost everybody else they'd ever been to church with wasn't saved and we're going to go to our first break and we'll pick up where you left off there uh if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own we already have several people waiting to have their questions answered by you uh but uh if you would like to get in line uh just send us an email to chris armson at gmail .com

29:22

c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and that may even be that you are a member of a church with whom you disagree on issues we're discussing uh and you don't want to identify yourself that's perfectly understandable you might even be a pastor who disagrees with your fellow elders or your congregation or your denomination on these issues whatever the reason is that you are compelled to remain anonymous or you might be chris arnson's pastor and you want to remain anonymous for the sole reason of being chris arnson's pastor and i think at least one of them is listening right now um but uh send us that email to chris arnson at gmail .com

30:15

and as i said please give us unless you're anonymous your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence god willing we'll be right back after these messages with more of dr james r white and our theme must one be a calvinist to be saved a response to the gospel of doctrinal perfectionism iron sharpens iron radio depends upon the financial support of fine christian organizations to remain on the air like the historical bible society the historical bible society maintains a collection of christian books manuscripts and bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years the mission of hbs is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture dissemination of scripture to provide tools equipping believers in christian apologetics with evidence for the bible's reliability and to introduce reformation literature and christian art to a broader audience since 2004 hbs has toured schools and churches throughout the northeast united states reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the bible hbs's founder daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church come journey through their website historicalbiblesociety .org

31:42

the collection includes a complete 11th century bible an actual page of the gutenberg bible from 1455 the first book ever printed the geneva bible the 1611 king james bible and much much more visit historicalbiblesociety .org

32:00

today thank you daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law for your faithful support of iron trump and iron radio this is pastor bill sasser grace church at franklin here in the beautiful state of tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially grace church at franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of god as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our lord jesus christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of god if you live near franklin tennessee and franklin is just south of nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some lord's day in worshiping our god and savior please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about grace church at franklin our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org

33:23

that's gracechurchatfranklin .org this is pastor bill sasser wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm pastor nate pickowitz of harvest bible church in gilmanton ironworks new hampshire and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rich chanson of hope reform baptist church in quorum new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor sule prince of oakwood wesleyan church in toronto ontario canada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor john sampson of king's church in peoria arizona and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck volo of new life community church in kingsville maryland and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor steve herford of eastport baptist church in jacksonville florida and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor roy owens jr of the church of friendship in hockley texas and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

35:19

that's nasbible .com to place your order i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary i'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where i've been invited to speak and have grown to love hope reform baptist church in quorum long island new york pastored by rich jensen and chris for mcdowell it's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of god like the dear saints at hope reform baptist church in quorum who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim christ jesus the king and his doctrines of sovereign grace in suffolk county long island and beyond i hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as i have for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reform li .net

36:30

that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of quorum long island new york that you heard about them from tony costa on iran sharpens iran and don't forget folks i will be giving you more details later but on march 20th and 21st i will be god willing at hope reform baptist church in quorum long island new york for a two -day conference with gary demar so uh stay tuned and i will give you more details later on by the way uh dr white one of us at least has to ask tony costa what a doctrine is a doctrine well welcome back folks uh if you would like to join us on the air with a question for dr james r white of alpha and megan ministries on the theme today must one be a calvinist to be saved a response to the gospel of doctrinal perfectionism send us an email to chris arnson at gmail .com

37:50

chris arnson at gmail .com let me first read a question from mary in cork ireland uh let's see i just had it in front of me can you say it with a wee little bit of an idrish accent but uh let's see here i where is that question i just had it in front of me okay here it is mary in cork ireland says according to acts chapter 16 verse 30 through 31 the jailer asked paul and silas what must i do to be saved the answer was believe in the lord jesus and you will and you will be saved you and your household how clear is that she says uh well that's an excellent question and if you want to comment on that yeah yeah yeah i do um and look um i'm sure there are some people who would look at me and go yeah well you your standards are too high and the reason that they might say that is i would say well look um that is a that is a true statement but that's not all the new testament and that's and if that was if that was it then there'd be no reason for the book of galatians but the fact is that it's pretty obvious that the judiazers who are anathematized by paul placed under the curse of god by paul believed in the lord jesus christ they would have said we believe on the lord jesus christ no question about it so how do you how do you understand that are there are there soteriological heresies that involve a person saying i believe that jesus christ is lord and yet you have to say this person is not going to inherit eternal life and the new testament answer is yes on numerous issues so first john you have the deceivers who deny that jesus christ came in the flesh so if the jesus you say you believe in um did not have a fleshly body and did not die and rise again that's the false jesus that's that's not going to bring you salvation um if you're amongst the judiazers and say oh yes jesus uh jesus was god and he died and he rose again but to get into the new covenant uh you need to do this that and that paul says uh you separate yourself from the grace of god so there are soteriological heresies this is this is where this is where this movement is this is where it derives its lifeblood is that it is plain that the new testament does have minimum standards and there are elements of truth that must be present and so here's the first thing i just um couple i think it was last week on uh my program the dividing line i addressed um a video that came out from a well -known uh ministry um that basically said something along the lines of what about those who who um don't hear you know what what what is what's going to happen with them and make a long story short it almost took a inclusivistic perspective and then a little bit later the same individual addressed a the subject of is the trinity essential and said no but misdefined what essential meant um so what do you what would you do with one of the pentecostals and uh who deny the trinity deny there are three divine persons say there is only one divine person but would say they believe in the death row resurrection of jesus christ is the salvation outside of his name they most of them would add you have to speak in tongues and a few other things like that um but but what do you do with someone who has doctrinal error on the nature of god and many people today is i've you've you've heard me say this and and i've said it in churches for for decades i would fear giving a uh a test on the trinity at most evangelical churches as to how many people would fail i think i think a vast majority of people in most evangelical churches would fail any meaningful test of the doctrine of the trinity i think most people would end up testing out as modalists as as people who believe that the jesus and the father and the spirit of one person so well how do you handle something like that well my understanding is that a person can be saved without being able to quote the nicene creed but if a person is truly saved then they will not reject the truth when it is presented to them so that means that there are going to be simple believing christians who were the gracious recipients of eternal life but who are going to go whoa man i had no idea i think we're all going to go whoa man i had no idea but on a really basic level of embarrassment uh when when they reach glory because they did not take advantage of the means of grace and the scriptures that were available to them to know better and to live more pleasing lives in light of knowing better um but if doctrinal perfection on the trinity is necessary for salvation again is anyone going to be saved so there are standards and i think the issue is not ignorance of truth i think there is a bottom line necessary you have to know these things to have saving faith but then there are other true things you can be ignorant of that upon being presented those truths should be something that you naturally embrace um and then there's beyond that how those truths relate to other truths that are vitally important for the welfare of the church and the welfare of believers but that some people in this life for various reasons will never confess those things they they may have traditions they may have had personal experiences that are coloring what they're going to hear whatever it might be so there's there's two there's two sides to this i i um i had a horrible experience in uh in july uh some some dear dear dear friends of mine took me on a hike up to the top of mount evans now i ride my bike around at mount evans that's on a that's on a paved road um but this was a hike and i just thought it's you know a hike i mean that's like a nice trail in the forest blah blah i didn't think i'd be doing rock climbing uh and i'm as you know um terrified of heights and so it was a horrible experience because i mean we're talking you can i can i'm looking down uh 2 ,500 3 ,000 feet to a lake beneath me and um i it was rough it was so bad i went back by myself two days later and hiked it alone so that i could defeat the uh the fear that i had experienced in that um beautiful place but but there's a there's there's a lot of places i could have gone way way way way down there to my death um there's there's a place up there where you can go across between these two mountains and i would never do it because you can go either direction and theologically we're very often in a position like that what right right now we're talking about what happens if you fall off on the right hand side of the cliff the other side is where people go nah hey you know as long as you just believe in jesus and don't ask who he is don't ask what he did um don't don't get into all this stuff in galatians and ephesians and romans and and let's not worry about uh the anathemas and you know what paul said of timothy or what peter warned about no no no as long as you believe about jesus well watch this no no no just just just just jesus uh that's the other side the other side is there are no doctrinal errors there are no there's no parameters there's no guidelines there's nothing and uh...

46:48

the truth is to be found in in the middle and i think one of the reasons we have this doctrinal perfectionism movement is that people get sick and tired of how often they encounter folks that are over on the other side where it's hey you know that that really matters uh uh there's there's really no uh substance that has to be communicated in the gospel and the truth is to be found between the two hello yes i had my i as i always do i have my mic on mute when you are speaking because i want to try to make sure that there's as little background noise as possible and chris come on i i know you too well it's the snoring well buzz is not here right now and if he was it would certainly be a reason for having microphones muted but um we have i there's no way that i'm going to be able to read the entire questions and or statements by our next listener who sent in an email brian from hanover pennsylvania coopersburg pennsylvania i'm not sure why both are listed uh but brian we thank you for sending in your question and i think me just asking his first question will give you opportunity to give that minimal list that you believe must be present in the profession of someone before we can uh with confidence claim that they are our brother or sister in christ but he says hi chris and dr white i saw this post i would like to comment and ask a couple of questions for you and dr white to seek to answer because i have been accused wrongly accused and slandered with such names as dr white mentioned to preface my comment i'm not or ever have been a calvinist a hyper calvinist or a doctrinal perfectionist even though i've been slanderously called all of that and more my questions are these and i'm only going to ask one because there's no way we could fit everything he's presenting here and in fact brian i will email uh dr white your entire email and if you want to correspond with him later that's up to both of you but here is the question that i'm going to read how many gospels are the power of god unto salvation so why don't you respond to that and also give us that minimal list that you said has elements in it that every professing believer should have included in their in their faith in summary form in order for us to look at them as a as a brother and sister in christ yeah well unfortunately the very use of of the plural there uh the only the only biblical context there is is when paul is talking about the judaizers and and he says that they are presenting another gospel which is not another and he uses two different two different greek terms all often heteros and so he's he's saying it's not another gospel of the same kind it's another gospel of a different kind and hence brings the anathema of god so you have individuals who are said in that passage to specifically be seeking to twist or to alter um the gospel of christ so as to make room for human boasting and so they were adding a a element of human behavior and human accomplishment uh to the grace of god specifically entering into the old covenant and they were boasting in the flesh of men um and as such though they claim to be christians and they were a part of the visible church um they were under the curse of god and that's the only place we have this idea of another gospel the problem is you take that and then you try to bring it into our modern situation and it becomes far too easy for people to say well you have the armenian gospel or you have uh you know i've talked about the gospel of rome uh because rome certainly provides a a doctrinal dogmatic teaching as to what at least her understanding used to be um whether anybody has any any idea of what francis actually believes i have no idea but um we used to have a much clearer understanding of what the battle lines were with with rome and so it would be appropriate to define what rome says the gospel is and then contrast that with the biblical gospel and find out whether it meets the same criteria that the anathematized gospel of the judaizers did and i'm actually going about that with a a fellow uh probably next week or thereafter a fairly well -known individual who on the basis there i saw a video he had done where the the conversation was uh were chesterton and tolkien christians and his answer was well if they're not if they weren't i'm in big trouble and so we're going to have a discussion about that uh because though i i can't tell you how much tolkien knew of the true gospel i can tell you chesterton really did know uh what the true gospel was and and embraced a falsehood yeah they're both roman catholics but one with one was a self um self aware of what the issues were roman catholic and i'm not so certain as to how much tolkien knew uh about uh reformed theology but chesterton knew reformed theology well and rejected it uh and rejected uh the the gospel the reformation and hence i would say rejected the biblical gospel and so that takes us back to galatians and ironically is quoted very often by reformed christians oh yeah oh yeah that's that's the point just as always quoted because he said a lot of really really wise things but you don't get to heaven by really really wise uh that's those you know uh buddhists say really really wise things too that's that's not that's not the issue so when when people say well how many uh true gospels are there well there's only one true gospel the question really in real life is how perfect is anyone's knowledge of that gospel and what is necessary to to confess to be to be a person who is holding to that gospel i mentioned paul's paul's uh listing in first corinthians chapter 15 of the the fundamentals in regards to uh jesus christ his his uh death his burial his resurrection but we are also told elsewhere that it is necessary to believe that jesus was uh truly a man that he had a physical body hence first john makes it very clear that if you think jesus is uh is just a phantom that does not have any true existence that uh you don't have the father of the son you don't have eternal life this is uh now what if you had someone who hears the gospel message that did not emphasize jesus's historical physical reality and they didn't know one way or the other uh what what the situation was well again that's a situation where when faced with that truth um there would be acceptance of that truth rather than rejection of it if a true salvation experience has been had uh but what if they never hear what if they're going home that night uh from a meeting it was not explained to them and they get run over by a bus well you know part of you can just automatically go well just leave up to god it's no reason even talking about this but the it does illustrate uh the the fact that if you if you insist upon the communication of in essence a full -orbed systematic theology then that would mean that pretty much there's i've almost never heard a sermon that could have gotten anyone saved in and of itself so that would and that and that's where a lot of hypercalvinists are is they go yeah that's right that's why it has to be over time it has to be slow you have to look for look for signs of regeneration etc etc etc uh that's not how it happened next too and there are a lot of things about jesus that are true and that i think are necessarily true of jesus that were not proclaimed in acts chapter 2 and yet people were saved now i know i know we don't have everything that was recorded everything that peter said but i don't think um that uh that that peter laid all of that stuff out in on the day of pentecost i think he he gave a a very direct presentation that jesus was the messiah and the jews had killed him and he was the fulfillment of the promises and um and the spirit of god worked from there we have to go we have to go to our midway break we'll pick up where you left off and by the way brian i believe uh it could be wrong but i believe you're a first -time questioner so if you give me your full mailing address we'll have a new american standard bible shipped out to you because of the fact that you're a first -time uh questioner and uh our friends at uh the who published the new american standard bible uh have been very generous to us by providing us with these giveaway bibles for first -time questioners and we also thank our friends at cvbbs .com

57:05

cumberland valley bible book service who will actually be shipping it out to you at no charge to you or to orange urban zion radio so we'll be back after these messages to pick up where we left off on that question of yours brian and if anybody else wants to join us our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

57:24

chrisarnson at gmail .com and please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence unless you're remaining anonymous there's a number of you who are emailing questions without telling us your city and state of residence please remember to include that in your question if you're not remaining anonymous and and please be patient with us as we take this longer than normal break this is required of us by our friends at grace life radio who air this program twice a day in a pre -recorded format and according to fcc regulations they have to air their own public service announcements to localize on your trip and zion radio to lake city florida so please be patient we will be airing our globally heard commercials while they air their local commercials so be patient and try to write down information provided by our advertisers so that you can patronize them more successfully and therefore help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air for a longer future don't go away we'll be right back with dr james r white after these messages from our sponsors when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joe moorcraft pastor of heritage presbyterian church in cumming georgia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm anthony venial founder of the reform rookie .com

59:05

and co -founder of new york apologetics and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor tim bushong of syracuse baptist church in syracuse indiana and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm eli ayala founder of revealed apologetics and staff member with the historical bible society and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor josh miller of grace bible fellowship church in harrisburg pennsylvania and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm joe bianchi president of calvi press publishing in greenville south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jake corn of switzerland community church in switzerland florida and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

01:00:14

that's nasbible .com to place your order linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call in brook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

01:01:07

that's linbrookbaptist .org james white of alphanomega ministries and the dividing line webcast here although god has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor rich jensen and the brethren at hope reform baptist church now located at their new beautiful facilities in coram long island new york i've had the privilege of opening god's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my new york debates i do not hesitate to highly recommend hope reform baptist church of coram long island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in christ i also want to congratulate hope reform baptist church of coram for the recent appointment of pastor rich jensen's co -elder pastor christopher mcdowell for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li .net

01:02:10

that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of coram long island that you heard about them from james white on iron sharpens iron radio chris harns and host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to get world now dot com that's get world now dot com i rely on world because i trust the reporting i gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter i believe you'll also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community this trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio and the fully shareable content of world digital there's no obligation and no credit card required visit get world now dot com today also check out world news groups podcast the world and everything in it at w n g dot org forward slash podcast that's w for world n for news g for group dot org forward slash podcast charles heddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ -exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid dash ground -books .com

01:04:45

that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years his name is dan buttafuoco dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind dan cares about people and is a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible ravi zacharias wrote the foreword dan also has a master's degree in theology dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in new york his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you call dan consultations are free there is no fee unless you win dan buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:06:37

that's chrisarnson at gmail .com hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

01:07:43

browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence as todd and patty work in service to you the church and to christ that's cumberland valley bible book service at cvbbs .com

01:07:57

that's cvbbs .com let todd and patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio and don't forget folks you can call cvbbs .com

01:08:09

if you prefer that method of ordering at their toll -free number 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231 that phone line is only manned monday through friday from 10 a .m

01:08:25

to 4 30 p .m eastern time 10 a .m to 4 30 p .m eastern time you will not get a recording on that line where you can leave a voicemail so only call that number 800 -656 -0231 monday through friday 10 a .m

01:08:41

to 4 30 p .m eastern time if you're not ordering online before we return to dr james r white and what is proving to be a fascinating discussion on must one be a calvinist to be saved a response to the doctor the gospel of doctrinal perfectionism just have a couple of announcements to make regarding upcoming events uh the aforementioned conference that i brought up very early on in the show is something that i hope that you join me in attending this is a conference at hope reform baptist church in quorum long island new york featuring guest speaker gary demar president of american vision the theme of the conference is god the government in the last days that's 20th and 21st hope reform baptist church in quorum long island if you would like to attend this event you can go to reformed rookie .com

01:09:41

reformed rookie r o o k i e .com and then click on demar conference at the top of the page and god willing i'll see you there uh that is march 20th and 21st at hope reform baptist church in quorum long island new york and uh really look forward to meeting iron sharpens iron radio listeners both those whom i am familiar with and those who are new to me perhaps you've never even sent in a question or anything like that but i look forward to being there god willing and then uh on friday may 29th i am having my next iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon this is our spring luncheon and i am so thrilled beyond words to have as my guest speaker for the very first time ever at the iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon dr conrad mbaywe who is pastor of kibata baptist church in lusaka zambia africa he is also one of the founders of african christian university where he is a lecturer and uh he is one of the most powerful preachers on the planet earth and i am not exaggerating when i say that at least according to my humble opinion and so if you're a man in ministry leadership you don't have to be a pastor but if you are i know that some churches unbiblically separate the pastors and elders if you're an elder uh if you're a deacon if you're a leader in a parachurch organization you are welcome to attend this free event friday may 29th from 11 a .m

01:11:24

to 2 p .m in carlisle pennsylvania which is south central pennsylvania send me an email to chris arms in at gmail .com

01:11:33

chris arms in at gmail .com and i will have you registered immediately to attend the free iron sharpens iron radio spring pastors luncheon featuring dr conrad of kabwatha baptist church lusaka zambia africa you do not want to miss this if you are capable of attending uh last but not least folks if you love this show you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves please consider putting iron sharpens iron radio on your monthly benevolence budget uh i am in dire need of your donations and your advertising if you are a ministry or business who would love to see this program continue airing uh please i am urging you not to take lightly uh these calls for help i thank all of you who are already doing this i have just recently received some very generous donations from folks that i don't even know personally uh and i really thank you from the depths of my heart for that but it's amazing to me that i could have over 41 000 people download this show in october alone and yet still have a tiny trickle of donations coming in when i say tiny trickle i don't mean that all the donations were tiny but the number of people is a relatively small handful of people who routinely donate to this program so please if you have never donated before please reconsider your lack of helping us and if you are a regular giver please please continue to give and you could do so instantly with a debit or credit card by going to iron sharpens iron radio dot com click support then click click to donate now iron sharpens iron radio dot com click support then click click to donate now or you can mail in a check the old -fashioned way via snail mail to the address that appears on the screen when you click support at iron sharpens iron radio dot com we are now back with our guest dr james r white of alpha and omega ministries and he is speaking on the theme must one be a calvinist to be saved a response to the gospel of doctrinal perfectionism if you'd like to join us our email address is chris arenson at gmail .com

01:13:53

chrisarnson at gmail .com and please as always give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence if you live outside the usa and only remain anonymous it's a personal and private matter by the way i forgot to mention some folks that enabled iron sharpens iron radio to return to the airwaves as we were facing for a number of weeks some technical difficulties that have crippled us and were making it impossible for us to air this program live but that has been rectified thanks be to god and for god using some talented folks who are willing to help us out with the show and and who are much more technical savvy technically savvy than i am but that doesn't say much as dr white but i want i want to thank chris richardson uh joe ignacio and taylor ignacio and i want to thank of course eric nielsen my webmaster all of these people have some of them have spent many hours trying to get this studio restored to a functioning level and i just thank all of you for the the hours that you poured into this and i want to thank god for using you to bring your efforts to fruition and that this program is now successfully back on the air but uh...

01:15:19

dr white when we left off i wanted you to basically give a summary of those things that you would think an orthodox profession of faith would need to include in order to it to be viewed as a saving profession of faith yeah well um and again uh the the issue here is you can provide examples from acts where people were saved on the basis of a a relatively minimal amount of information and that's not the same thing as saying that this is that that one sermon illustrates the uh most boiled down acceptable profession of faith uh for a person say a year later or two years later or or something along these lines uh i think that there is a there must be room left for growing in the grace and knowledge of the and understanding that there is only one god um obviously when we're talking about jesus christ we're not talking merely about a man uh but again like i said i have encountered ministers of the gospel who were less than clear in their understanding of the relationship of the trinity i have uh...

01:16:56

managed to get ministers in role playing with me to spout heresy not because they were actually convinced of heresy but because they just didn't know and so when we're talking about minimums um really the the issue becomes are we talking about someone who has has just been saved someone who is facing a biblical revelation for the first time and didn't know these things each one of these is a pastoral uh situation and i think it's one of the reasons that this subject is bad not best handled uh in facebook forums and things like that because there is a there is a pastoral uh level of seeking to differentiate between people who uh have a a true desire to know and to believe the truth and then the i don't know where they come from but the people that trouble the church on a regular basis seeking to draw disciples after away after themselves we had i didn't even know this i only found out a couple hours ago i i preached sunday at our church our church rents from other facilities so we only have one service on sunday a very lengthy service but we only have one and i had run into a fellow uh after the service uh that wanted to uh take up my time to tell me about revelations he had received from the lord he seemed very disappointed when i informed him we didn't believe in latter -day revelation um but then i found out from uh one of our deacons uh just a few hours ago uh that we had two or three other people uh at the service um who likewise had some real serious uh doctrinal stuff going on and it was not a matter of ignorance it was a willful uh i have authority to find these things and i'd like to show you all how i should be your leader type stuff and so i i guess when i preach i really bring out some of the some of the weirdos um and uh well you go to my preaching all the time so you know about that i sure hope some of those weirdos are listening right now but uh so there's you know pastorally i can i can tell the difference between a person who has been uh has come to a wrong conclusion or has been given false teaching in the past but they they want to know the truth and someone who is trying to get their foot in the door and trying to exercise spiritual authority over others and things like that um i i think that's something that is best uh handled in a pastoral sense but if we if we want to just simply boil things down the most basic uh elements of of what the apostles defined as the essence of the gospel and what i what i mean by this is they said that people who denied these things were not believers so that's different than being ignorant of it but that's why that's why this is a little bit confusing you've got what do you need to know initially which is a much smaller thing over against what defines the faith and cannot be denied which is a different thing and so what do you have the apostles doing there's one god who created all things so polytheism pantheism that's out from the start uh he has revealed himself as father son holy spirit you must believe in the deity of christ person holy spirit uh the incarnation uh the the fact that jesus had a true physical body if you deny the physical body you're you're denying the gospel at first john chapter two um resurrection we have all met our most repetitive he's not been raised from the dead it has to be a real resurrection not the resurrection of union theological seminary or people like that uh where it's just a spiritual whatever uh that which died coming to life again is is how paul describes it in first corinthians chapter 15 apostasy in greek uh resurrected coming again uh and that you know you have you have relationship with him through faith repentance is the first element that was preached there's a lot of people that think that's an optional thing or even or actually people who deny there are actually people like stephen anderson who say if you preach repentance you're denying the gospel uh that that's something the apostle and yet somehow oddly he tells homosexuals that they're all going to hell and he doesn't even evangelize them and hopes that they come to christ and leave behind their damning activity and desires no he doesn't believe they can't he doesn't believe they can't right right yeah so so you've got that weirdness but repentance and faith jesus christ alone uh and then of course galatians makes it very plain you add anything to that faith in christ you try to put something in that that hand of faith and no longer have the empty hand of faith and you uh you run afoul of the very grace of god in that situation because you're trying to add to what christ had done um so uh i would say that there is a general eschatology when i say general eschatology jesus christ is coming again there's going to be a judgment uh jesus certainly taught that there would be a judgment uh and uh that there is uh there is reward and there is punishment um outside of that i mean you certainly got you know all sorts of issues is how do you know any of what we just said and that is god has revealed himself in scripture and so you you have if you don't believe that the that the bible is a special revelation from god uh then how can you know any of aforementioned things or even believe that any of those things are authoritative um but that leaves a lot of stuff uh that is clearly a part of revelation but that the apostles did not say um okay this is the next till the die on the next till the die on the next till the die on and everybody has to cross every t and dot dot every i in the exact same way and so when when paul says the thessalonians you know i told you about the man of stan i don't need to tell you about that we're all going no we need to know we we weren't there um and so you know we we know that there have been uh godly men who have held widely divergent views of millenniums and prophetic understandings of daniel chapter 9 and and and and all sorts of issues along that those lines and we've got good brothers and sisters that disagree with uh with you and i for example on ecclesiology is there to be a a layer of ecclesiastical authority above the local church and and uh issues the issues along those lines uh these are these are issues that well you've you've moderated one of the uh debates that i've done uh well not you didn't moderate it but you introduced it uh one of the debates i've done on uh uh baptism uh there on long island i did another one in florida as i recall uh doing another one um next month in moscow idaho um but uh you know we we can baptism is a good example i mean it's one of the two ordinances of the church it's vitally important and yet uh there are godly godly men who have disagreed as to the who is the subject of baptism and and uh when baptism should be administered the the way in which it should be administered um and so that does not in fact the westminster confession of faith would identify my views on that as sinful um so uh we we go to the word and yet we live in a fallen world there's tradition there's emotions there's there's things that get in the way uh and if you get to the point where you say well i'm sorry i i i simply can't have fellowship with you if you don't um agree with me on subjects that the apostles did not themselves make definitional in that way now you can now these folks will argue well they didn't in what we have but they would have if they had been in our position that's that's generally i think uh what the argument would would be um but um that's that's what i would say is is what the new testament gives us uh as uh as the the outlines of what's uh what's necessary and what then becomes core important yes and then the next level the next level if we don't if we don't recognize there are differing levels of clarity and definitional nature then we will end up like the fundamentalists who basically says if you don't agree with me on every single thing then you're uh you're off on your way to hell not realizing that basically there was no one before 1930 that believed everything they believed yes it's interesting that we have the apostle paul uh in galatians where he is making it clear the judaizers have a false gospel and he hits at the core of why the judaizers had a false gospel it's because it involved an effort involved in a mixture with faith in christ namely specifically the addition of baptism uh i'm sorry the addition of circumcision to belief in christ in order to be saved and so that was a such a crucial an abominable thing to paul that he declared the judaizers to be accursed and he said that they their gospel was no gospel at all and even warned his listeners that if he or even an angel from heaven bring a gospel that was other than the one that they had the apostles had declared to them that they should be touchy situation in one of your debates on long island that i arranged with mitch pakwa who i as you do highly esteem him even though we believe he has a false gospel and is not our brother we still view him as a a man of integrity and a man who i i have never seen him in a debate with you where i think he consciously lied to you oh no no whereas other men oh yeah but he asked you and i think this was a little bit unfair of him i think he might have been trying to play the sympathy card but he asked you at one point during the debate do you view me as your brother in christ right and you said if you believe in the dogmas of salvation that are included in the council of trent there is no hope in that gospel it's just very simple uh you did not immediately say no you're a roman catholic you're you're damned uh you because there are as you know there are roman catholics and there have been throughout history who either through ignorance of rome what rome teaches about the gospel and they believe in a biblical gospel uh or they they know that rome teaches a false gospel and for some reason none of which i would agree with they remain in rome either to be a martin luther of the 21st century or more than likely they're afraid to cause a division in their marriage and their or their family or something else because everyone else around them is catholic but uh that is really at the heart of it isn't it you don't have the apostle paul condemning anyone to hell for not understanding predestination and election and so on uh and those things although they're important they're more of the facts that explain to us why it is that we came to faith in christ and so on am i right yeah yeah exactly and and again we we desire and i have have certainly shaped my ministry on the basis of believing that we want to glorify god in what we believe we want to believe everything he has revealed and i believe that he is most glorified when we accept all that he has revealed to us um and that's why i teach the things that i teach and and challenge people to think through such topics that are so very unpopular amongst many such as the sovereignty of god and man's deadness and sin um no question about any of those things uh but i was a christian before i understood the relationship of these things i was a christian before i understood uh that my anthropology my doctrine of man uh had to be consistent with my doctrine of evangelism and with my doctrine that informs my apologetics um i wasn't fully consistent in times past and i seek to be consistent not to become a christian but because i am a christian and so it's really frightening to me when people make having that final consistency the means by which you become a christian um no that should be something we seek um but i have often referred to the blessed inconsistencies um of uh brothers and sisters with whom i have disagreements and uh i think that if you take the presuppositions of arminianism to its final it's their final conclusions yeah that can become a false gospel that can become a gospel very much focused upon man and man's accomplishments and and jesus just becomes someone who tries to save but can't really save um but my arminian friends um speak of god's grace and sometimes i want to hit my head on a table when uh they're speaking of god's grace i go don't you see what that means and no they don't and so there's two ways i can handle that i can cut them off and say i'm gonna have nothing to do with you or i can continue my fellowship with them and um demonstrate by my own teaching and my own life and uh my love for them uh that these truths may not be what they they thought they were a lot of them have just prejudices they have you know they were taught something by the pastor that they were converted under that uh calvinism's terrible horrible thing and they just never really given it a fair shake um so you know those are the decisions that i that i have to make at that point well we are going to our final break it's going to be much more brief than the last one so if you would like to get in line and ask a question of dr white we still have a few of you who are waiting i hope patiently to have your question asked and answered by dr white uh but if you want to get in line uh get in line now at chris arnson gmail .com

01:32:53

chris arnson at gmail .com and give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter we'll be right back with dr white iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving south central pennsylvania solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering understanding and exceeding your expectations they deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath remodeling decks porches windows and doors roof and siding and more for a clear detailed professional estimate call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand to the test of time call solid rock remodeling at 717 -697 -1981 717 -697 -1981 or visit solid rock remodeling .com

01:34:06

that's solid rock remodeling .com solid rock remodeling bringing new life to your home hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

01:35:23

where you can click support that's ironsharpensironradio .com as host of iron sharpens iron radio i frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations a church i've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey pastored by alan dunn grace covenant baptist church believes it's god's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world they believe churches need to turn to the bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship god in spirit and truth grace covenant baptist church endeavors to maintain a god -centered focus reading preaching and hearing the word of god singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety discover more about grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

01:36:38

.com my name is james that's gcbcnj .squarespace

01:36:44

.com or call them at 908 -996 -7654 that's 908 -996 -7654 tell pastor dunn that you heard about grace covenant baptist church on iron sharpens iron radio hello my name is james renahan and i'm the president of irbs theological seminary in mansfield texas the word of god says if a man desires the office of an overseer he desires a do you have the desire to serve jesus christ in pastoral ministry 20 years ago the institute of reformed baptist studies at westminster seminary california was born for those two decades these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in reformed baptist churches it's been a wonderful partnership now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to the master of divinity degree this is irbs theological seminary we believe that the scriptures of the old and new testaments are the inspired and inerrant word of god that jesus christ is god in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life death and resurrection and that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune god in all things irbs theological seminary is dedicated by god's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines do you sense a call to serve jesus christ in his church as a pastor why not consider irbs theological seminary you'll find more information at irbsseminary .org

01:38:22

that's irbsseminary .org two s's in the middle i hope to hear from you soon god bless you james white of alphanamega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know i have a great love for getting bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good i'm so delighted i discovered post tenebrous lux bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but i'll give it a shot jeffrey rice of post tenebrous lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan all his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleading of corners to the perimeter stitching jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in italy used for my nestle all in 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a french tannery used to rebind a reformation study bible i used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous lux bible rebinding go to ptl bible rebinding .com

01:39:55

that's ptl bible rebinding .com when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm pastor brandon scalf of cruciform bible church in indianapolis indiana and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chris hatton of grace chapel in sanford florida and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm jack wilkie minister of the forney church of christ in forney texas and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor mike wishowski of westminster chapel in ballground georgia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor steve cooley of bethlehem bible church in west boston massachusetts and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor brock evans from wading river baptist church in wading river long island new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor tom lasser crispy baptist church in big spring texas and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

01:41:43

that's nasbible .com to place your order charles haddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

01:42:39

that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio one sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers i know you all use batteries every day so i'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use batterydepot .com

01:43:15

for all your battery needs at batterydepot .com they're changing the status quo they're flipping the script they're sticking it to the man in other words they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new dependable and affordable ordering from batterydepot .com

01:43:37

ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries you can count on to work properly at competitive prices whether you need batteries for cordless phones cell phones radios pcs laptops tablets baby monitors hearing aids smoke detectors credit card readers digital cameras electronic cigarettes gps's mp3 players watches or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries go to batterydepot .com

01:44:09

next day shipping available all products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month warranties call 866 -403 -3768 that's 866 -403 -3768 or go to batterydepot .com

01:44:28

that's batterydepot .com every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit l -i -y -f -c .org

01:45:41

that's l -i -y -f -c .org by the way folks don't forget to keep listening to firstloveradio .org

01:45:51

where iron trip and zion radio is being live streamed keep listening to firstloveradio .org

01:45:56

after iron trip and zion radio is over so you can hear the preaching ministry of pastor joe jackowitz and god willing i'm going to have joe jackowitz back on the program hopefully very soon to give you some absolutely wonderful news about the cancer that was looming over him and coursing through his veins and bone marrow seeking to take his life and i we've got some just extraordinary news for you and hopefully pastor joe will be on at some point in the very near future to give you that amazing update we have a listener i usually don't give listeners full names but when they are pastors i tend to plug their church and get and announce their full name pastor justin pierce of grace reform baptist church in blountville tennessee hopefully i'm pronouncing that right uh he says brother chris i wanted to ask dr white about his view on the necessity of a true christian to affirm jesus as god the son however he has answered it very well the question i have now for dr white is ch spurgeon disagrees with arminianism but affirmed that most calvinists began as arminians so why is there such a great gulf between arminian and calvinistic teachings today thank you for your show this is my first time reaching out to you grace and peace well this is your first time pastor pierce uh you will be getting a free new american standard bible compliments of the publishers and compliments of cvbbs .com