November 2, 2004

From around the world, from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll free across the

United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. Well it is Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, a day which we thought would never get here.

When I was preaching at Bethany Baptist in Peoria, Illinois over the weekend, each one of the three morning services, three morning services, let me tell you something folks, if your pastor preaches the same sermon three times in a row, do not think that is easy.

It is not easy. It is very difficult, especially if you, like me, am not a big manuscript person.

You have an outline in your mind and the text is basically your outline, and doing that three times in a row is a killer, but in each one of them

I said, I feel like saying, my name is James White and I approve of this message. And they seemed to like that, and I don't know about you, but I am not really going to be missing all of the political campaign ads.

I am so sick, there's this one, District 1 in Arizona, man, alive.

Why in the world? We're not even in District 1, right? It's not even really close by here, I think it's down in Tucson, isn't it?

But man, I am just so sick of that law. Just throwing mud around like I don't know what, and when

I was back in Illinois watching the commercials back there, because the presidential folks pulled out of Arizona a long time ago.

This state is not a battleground state, everybody knows where it's going already, and they pulled out of here as far as spending money a long time ago.

But back in Illinois, for some odd reason, Illinois is not up for grabs either, really, but I guess it was just because I had access to cable in my hotel room, the

History Channel and stuff like that, and so I was running into all sorts of stuff and it was, wow, nasty.

Glad today is it, yeah, I know, this could be going for a long time, but you know what?

I just don't think it's going to be, I hope not, I do not claim to be a prophet or son of a prophet, but I just don't think this is going to drag on through into January or something.

I don't think it's going to be another 2000, at least I hope not, but who knows?

We will see. I am feeling rather upbeat today, and so that should tell you something, because it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out where I go when you realize that, of course,

I believe that abortion is the murder of unborn children, partial birth abortion is something that even

Hitler couldn't have imagined, and do we need to go from there? The idea of homosexual marriage and, in fact,

I will say unions as well, hello, are all things that are just absolutely opposed, since they're opposed to God's law, that means a nation is going to embrace those things, is putting itself in opposition to God.

There's an election day prayer on the website that I put up last night,

I don't know if anyone's seen that, well, I know people have seen that, because they've mentioned it in Channel, but that I posted last evening, and do not think that because we have generally stayed on theological topics that this is not something that's important to me,

I do believe that theology has something to do with this, but as you know, there is an artificial prohibition upon the discussion of such things, evidently free speech is for everyone unless you're religious, and that is an amazing thing,

I suppose, by the way, 877 -753 -3341, fill up the phone lines today, folks, because I do not have any clips to play,

I do not have any agenda today, and so if you want to get online, today is the day to do it, 877 -753 -3341, for another reason, too, and the other reason that that is relevant is because this is the last dividing line until, let me see here, come on, bring the calendar thingy up, there it is, let's see, we come back, oh, what, the 14th, so it'll be the 16th of November, so two weeks from today is the next dividing line, and so that means if you want to get something asked or taken care of, today is the day to do it.

I was at Bradley University, I kept calling it Butler, it starts with a

B, but I think it's Bradley University in Peoria, they, you know how college campus ministries are, and they asked the church, because they're part of the church, they asked if they could have me for some sort of event on campus, and so they arranged that on Saturday afternoon, 5 o 'clock,

I was going to do a Q &A session. Well, Q &A, I did it a couple times over the weekend, it was stuff like, well, we had a

Roman Catholic that attended my discussions on the solos, and so we had questions about, you know, the standard stuff, doesn't solo scriptura result in all these, you know, billions of denominations, and all the rest of that kind of thing, and that's what

I was thinking. But we get to the campus, and we see the flyer, and I had been told, and I sort of thought it was a bit of a joke, but the title on the flyer was

Stump the Chump, and the sub -question, the sub -things, titles were,

I think you can prove God doesn't exist, do you like to just argue? They were these inflammatory statements, and so, shock of all shocks, we had some very interesting folks show up, and ended up having some really good conversations, but it was, they were all,

I wouldn't necessarily use the term atheists, but they were various forms of philosophical non -believers.

One called himself a nihilist, until I explained what a nihilist was, and they all had major league epistemological problems, okay?

They all were a part of this, how do we really know, how can anyone really know, and so it was quite the challenge, and in talking, we had a conversation, and I'm going to enlist all the believers in the audience to pray for a young 19 -year -old man named

Eric. Eric was the first one to put his hand up, Eric was wearing all red, not all red, as in A -L -R -E -D, but A -L -L space

R -E -D, and Eric first started off by reading a portion from the

Atheist Manifesto, blaming religion for all of the world's ills and problems and things like that, and to make a long story short, he wrote a question, and we had two questions at the end, and the campus folks wanted me to address different questions, so I said, well, tell

Eric, tell this fellow, I'll talk to him after, you know, the more formal public presentation part, when they started eating pizza.

That's how you get everybody there, of course, on a campus is you have free food, and so I sat down with Eric, and we started talking, and basically

Eric's problem is epistemological. It's about his theory of knowledge, and he, for example, motioned to his leather jacket, and said, how do

I really even know that's there? How do I know that my mind's just not playing games with me? And if that's the case, then all the, you know, all this other stuff about God and truth and all this stuff, you know, how can

I really know any of this stuff? And so, you've got to picture this, because this is sort of funny. Chris Jenkins, who was the one who brought me in, he's on staff at Bethany Baptist, and I had gotten to know

Chris years ago. He had brought me into the church in Normal, Illinois, Calvary Baptist there, and got to know all the great guys back there.

Got to reacquaint myself with some of the folks. Hogus came up and said hi during one of the meetings and all the stuff.

Chris runs and gets me three pieces of this pizza, and it looked like good pizza. It looked, it wasn't the blech kind of pizza.

It's the, it was the mmm, yummy pizza, type pizza. So I've got these three pieces of pizza sitting on a plate next to me on this chair between me and Eric, and, but I'm talking with Eric, and he's an intelligent young fella, and so I've, I've got to be focused.

I can't be sitting here munching on pizza, so I've got the smell of this pizza coming up at me, and I'm hungry.

I haven't eaten anything. Remember when you travel back east, the folks back east never really understand that when you travel back there, generally you end up missing a meal.

You eat early in the morning, catch your flight, you get there, you haven't eaten anything, and they wait till dinner to take you out again, and then that's it.

So that's your lunch. You don't get dinner, and so you always end up hungry when you're back there, and so I've got this, this smell coming up at me while I'm trying to concentrate on talking to Eric, and so finally

I just hand the, hand the thing to the guy behind me. I said, put this back on the table. I'm not gonna get to eat tonight, and so I just let

Eric, I just kept asking Eric questions until finally Eric gave me the, the, the peg to put my, put my coat on, shall we say, because, you see, when you're talking with someone like that, who has abandoned a, a theory of knowledge that would be biblical,

I mean, the Bible assumes certain things, teaches certain things about knowledge, that we can have knowledge of what is around us, that we can have knowledge so that we can be held accountable for what

God says to us, and all this kind of stuff, and so since, and here's, here's where my apologetic differs from a lot of people, is

I recognize I am, I am not going to abandon my worldview to try to create a fake position of neutrality with Eric.

I can't do that. I don't believe the world makes sense. I don't believe you can make sense of the world.

I believe every fact is a fact because God made it that way. You can't make sense of this world without the

Christian God, without a creator who holds all this stuff together, who allows you to define your epistemology, and I know that this young man sitting there, barely older than my own son, was created in the image of God, so I don't need to create a fake neutral ground, there is no such thing as a neutral ground to begin with, but I know

Eric is created in the image of God, and eventually, you keep him talking long enough, and that image is going to express itself, because the way he is living is inconsistent with the way his creator made him to live.

And so, finally, I pointed out to him that his statements about, well, you know,

I don't know if my jacket exists, you know, my mind might be playing tricks on me. I say, but the problem is,

Eric, when you walk out that door over there, you are going to live in a way other than your worldview says you should live.

You are going to assume that your jacket exists because you're going to put it on because it's cold outside. And you're going to assume a different worldview when you drive a car, when you open a door, you're going to assume the regularity of the laws of nature.

You're going to assume all these things when your worldview doesn't give you any basis for doing so.

You are going to be inconsistent, and that's when he said what I needed him to say. He started responding, and one of the things he said was,

I know I should try to be consistent. And I immediately stopped him and said, why?

And that was it. We kept talking for 20 minutes after that, but that was it as far as the debate went.

He had admitted it. Why? He had said, I should try. Why? There was nothing in his worldview that could help him to answer that question.

Nothing at all. And there's this, there's all these, and what happened was, as soon as it was over,

I sat down with Eric, and 20 kids just surrounded us and sat there silently just listening to this whole thing.

And so, pray for Eric, because I told him, I said, Eric, you know what? I said, I'm going to pray for you.

In fact, what I did is I put that last question he wrote, it was on a regular three by five card. I put that in my

Palm Pilot case, my Tungsten C3 case, just to be there always to remind me to pray for Eric.

Because I said, Eric, I'm going to pray for you. That every day, every time you act contrary to your own worldview, every day, you act inconsistently from the way

God made you to be. God's going to remind you of that silly looking bald guy that you met that night, who said he's going to be praying for you.

And he's going to convict you of that until you discover that you already know God's there, and you're suppressing knowledge of him.

And he shows his mercy and grace to you. I'm going to pray he's going to do that for you. And so,

I am going to pray for Eric, and I'll invite you to pray for Eric as well. There was a positive thing as he was leaving.

One of the things I learned from that issue, no one has ever challenged me on being inconsistent.

I really didn't know how it had gone. That's not something

I do a whole lot of. I mean, when I was in normal Illinois, I don't know, about a year and a half ago, I did a thing at the

University there, University of Illinois or Illinois State, or one of them there in the

Bloomington Normal Area. And the questions were all theological. They were all about Reformed theology and stuff like that.

It wasn't like this, because it had been advertised differently, I guess. They didn't have Stump the Chump as the title.

And so, this isn't the kind of normal thing that I'm used to doing. So, I really didn't have a means of examining exactly how it was going or feeling how it was going.

But certainly, Chris felt that it went very, very well. In fact, wished we could do more on the campus along those lines that the

Christians had been encouraged and stuff like that. So, I'll take it from that perspective and hope that was the case.

877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. Like I said, this is the last one for two weeks.

I do not have any clips to play, don't have an agenda. I sort of figure everybody has the same thought in their mind.

Oh, I talked about that for a reason. I talked about that for a reason.

Here, I'm talking to Eric, or I'm talking to this, there's a young woman who wanted to argue a similar epistemology.

It wasn't quite the same, but a similar epistemology. And the funny thing was, once we got done talking, she just left.

She didn't stay around to hear the rest of it. And the point being that in each one of these individuals, from the left's perspective in our land, those individuals are non -religious because they're not a member of a particular church.

And therefore, their ideas and their viewpoints can be expressed by a nonprofit corporation, or in any context, during elections or whatever else, without hesitation, without any issues.

But if you're religious, and you're open about your religion, then you are in a situation where you have to, well, you have to have your rights to free speech suppressed.

That's exactly what's going on. That's exactly what the left wants. They don't want anyone to realize the fact that what you're really doing there is limiting free speech on only one side of the battle.

And that Eric and that young lady and everybody else who turned in questions based upon the same worldview, these people are just as religious as I am, if by that you mean that their thought, their activity is determined by a worldview that speaks to ultimate authorities.

They are just as religious as I am. And their worldview is just as clear as as mine is.

And so why should their worldview, because it says we can't know anything about God, so it turns their ultimate authority into their own mind, or into technology or some other such thing.

Why is that considered non -religious speech? Whereas, if I acknowledge the existence of God, and I have a coherent system that can actually explain the existence of the laws of nature, and they can explain the ability of man to think and the laws of logic, why is my speech limited at that point, whereas their speech is not?

It's clearly grossly unfair, but it's pretty easy to see how this happened, how this developed, because most

Christians don't know how to express the Christian worldview, or to coherently present anything along those lines regarding the interface between meaningful

Christian theology and public dialogue and discussion.

You know, there are certain people writing about, there's a couple people especially who,

I was noticing this morning, somebody was posting some stuff that they had written, and I mentioned, you know, I don't sit around thinking about that person, but evidently that person sits around thinking about me all the time.

And I feel very sorry for them as a result. They must have a very limited life and a very shallow life, if all they do is sit around and try to find ways of taking potshots at me.

I just don't really think about these people that much until someone mentions something, they've shot my direction.

And one of the things that these folks like to say is that someone like myself, my theology is just these propositions that you have to say the propositions right, and that's the essence of my theology.

That's the essence of my Christianity. And, you know, I guess they feel better saying that kind of thing.

I don't know. Obviously, they haven't a clue as to who I am.

They haven't a clue as to how I live my life. And they just like to be personal and stuff like that.

I guess I don't know what really motivates these people. They seem very unhappy to me most of the time. But, I mean,

I'm sitting here, I have gotten my ham. I finished workout, upper chest, shoulder workout.

And I'm sitting here, not really, not in the past 20 minutes since I've been talking. But I've got the

American Bodybuilding Pure Pro Dietary Supplement here, the grape protein drink.

Man, I'm going to tell you, if you want to start getting some protein into your diet, this stuff is just so good.

Actually, their mass recovery thing is really is even better after a workout, but I didn't have one today. But, you know,

I mean, I have a regular old life and I do stuff and have fun.

And this morning, I was driving to school. I'm teaching my daughter to drive. The world's most helpless feeling is to sit in the passenger seat of a vehicle with a 15 -year -old in the driver's seat.

Oh, Lord, I'm actually 21, but that's why I look like I'm older, because it's just like, ah!

It's a very difficult thing. Anyway, and I'm driving down the road and I see Rich outside. So I roll the window down and I'm screaming, help, as we drive by on our way going to school.

So anyway, I mean, the point being, these folks don't know me. And they do not have any idea whatsoever about the fact that my theology is consistent with my life, that I don't believe that theological propositions are just these things that exist out there, that you just simply say them correctly and all the rest of stuff.

Theology does impact how we live. And as we do apologetics, as we speak to our culture, if we have a shallow knowledge of the essence of our theology, then we're going to have a shallow foundation upon which to build our worldview.

And then we're going to have no ability really at all to discuss our worldview. And one of the things that I found interesting that Chris mentioned to me about the thing at the university, was the wide range of questions that were thrown at me that I answered.

And he's like, how do you study all that stuff? And it wasn't that I had, quote unquote, studied all that stuff.

They were all united together in going back to the issue of the Christian worldview.

And if that's a fundamental thing, if that's something that you're thinking about, that's something that, because you're in the

Word of God and you're studying the Word of God, and you've been challenged to recognize that your theology needs to be consistent.

What you believe about God and what you believe about the Bible, what you believe about salvation, you need to bring these things together so they're a consistent whole.

That's automatically going to make you, unless you just don't even realize the connection between theology and life, that's going to make you a person who tries to think consistently about your worldview, and hence about how you interface with politics and how you interface with all of that stuff.

And so that is where I see the big problem in many evangelical churches today, is you're not encouraged to think in that holistic, consistent way.

I remember years ago, sitting in a Bible study, talking with a fellow student from the seminary that I was attending at the time.

And I remember very, very clearly, we were talking about Reformed Theology. And I remember very, very clearly, one of the things he said was, one of my problems with Calvinism is that it's too consistent.

It takes the mystery out of the Christian faith. Now, don't underestimate the attraction that that has.

Now, of course, I don't believe that it takes the biblical mystery out of the

Christian faith at all. What it does, of course, is it takes seriously the entirety of God's revelation, and it takes seriously the idea that God wants us to know what he believes about these things.

But that idea is taken, I think, very wrongly and applied in a very wrong way.

And it's taken in a broad sense by a lot of folks who basically say, look, I don't like being forced to be consistent in my theology, and hence in my worldview.

I don't want that. It's uncomfortable. It makes me question certain traditions and things like that.

And so it's easier for those folks to say, let's just keep all these things separate so I can believe what

I believe about salvation over here. And that's why you can hear preachers thunder about the sovereignty of God and then turn around and make man sovereign in the matter of salvation.

No, there's no consistency between those two things. And that's what drives

Calvinists nuts when you hear people that are just completely out to lunch on their consistency, but they seem to rejoice in that and to revel in that.

And the reason is they've pigeonholed everything. What they believe about salvation is over here.

What they believe about God is over here. And they can believe two completely contradictory things, and they are blissfully ignorant of it.

But if you dare to have them bring those two things side by side, oh, look out.

Things get ugly very, very quickly because now you're making them uncomfortable, and so on and so forth.

And so, see, what we talk about here does have relevance to all of the

Christian life, and it has relevance to what's happening today here in the United States.

I know some of you are listening from outside the United States, but you know what? I think what happens in the elections in the

United States today truly has global consequences, especially because of the fact that people like Zarqawi, Osama bin

Laden, and those who are willing to sip tea before blowing themselves up to kill others do not know anything about national boundaries, and they need to be understood.

And you know what? I don't think anyone in the current administration, and certainly nobody in any future administration from the other side, truly has any idea at all what

Islam is all about, and the spiritual nature of their dedication to homicide bombings and the things like that.

So you see, it's all together. It's all, you can't separate it out.

It's all your worldview, your theology, it's all right there. 877 -753 -3341.

We have two folks online. That means I think we have room for at least one more. At 877 -753 -3341.

We're going to take our break, and then get to our phone lines and your calls right after this. At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself.

It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified, but about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

What's a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers, the doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of Reformed evangelicalism itself.

Join Alpha and Omega Ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue, justification, the heart of the gospel, with pastor and co -author of Holy Scripture, the ground and pillar of our faith,

David King, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Founders Conference, Tom Askell, New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of Evangelical Answers, Eric Svensson, the founder of the

Spurgeon Archive and executive director of Grace to You, Philip Johnson, nationally renowned

Reformed Christian artist, Steve Camp, and the founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and author, Dr.

James White. Join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton Ballroom on November 6, 2004, beginning at 845 a .m.

Seating is limited, so order your tickets now at aomin .org. That's www .aomin .org.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God, James White, in his book,

The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt

Scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author

James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .aomin

.org. Convictions once held and died for among Bible -believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent

Auburn Avenue Movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?

Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the Reformed scholars who opposed them in error?

Does Trinitarian Baptism make one a member of the New Covenant? Are Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5, 2004, for a full three hours of moderated debate between Dr.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue Movement and New St.

Andrews College, as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.

Additional information and tickets can be ordered at aomin .org. That's www .aomin .org.

Uh, the church where I am an elder, Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, which I think we just heard about, it just became a polling place on an emergency basis today.

There's another Baptist church, barely a block north of us, and they got a bomb threat.

And so they called us up, didn't call me up, but they called whoever they needed to call up and said, can we move the precinct to your building?

And so we've got, uh, remember Warren? Good old

Warren, who used to help us with the program back when we did the radio program stuff, you know? Uh, he, uh, he's down,

I cannot imagine the speed with which he had to be pulling tables down. And my goodness, what a challenge that must have been to transform our

Bible study room. He probably made the sheriff's deputies help him. I would certainly hope so. Good grief.

I mean, uh, that, that's, uh, that's a bomb threat. Uh, we'd still get shrapnel if they bombed the place.

I mean, that's how close we are. Good grief. Uh, why do people do things like that?

It's just, uh, anyway, well, uh, there, we, we all need to also keep in mind poor

Unicleman and Channel. You'll notice that he is now started a minute by minute tick down to the debate.

He's lost it. No, no two ways about it. Poor guy. Uh, we need, we poor, he's just a poor guy.

Uh, you know, I should make an announcement. Oh, you, you're supposed to make an announcement? Final announcement. Final announcement.

78, 78 hours, 25 minutes until the Wilson White debate in the 2004 national conference.

That's right. Well, Hey, what I should say is to let everybody know that effective midnight this last

Sunday, the pre -order screens came down from our website, but that doesn't mean you still can't get in because you can at the door.

We will be accepting Visa, MasterCard, Discover, and now American Express. And so, but not

PayPal, not PayPal, not, not yet. Cash is good.

Cash, cash is still good. We can do cash too. So you can still, and there are plenty of seats. You can still, uh, uh, pay at the door and get into both the debate and the conference and, uh, get all that taken care of at the door.

Okie dokie. That's my announcement. Thank you very much. Final announcement for the debate and conference.

Ta -da! All right, boy, the last one. Well, for this one, uh, for the last one, but this one, but who knows, you know, when the next one is going to be.

So, uh, who, who knows? All right, let's get our, our phone calls taken care of here and let's go back to Illinois where I just left and talk with Paul.

Hi, Paul. Hi, Troy, welcome home for a little while. Uh, not for long. Yeah. I got to speak up there.

I can barely hear you. Okay, um, I, I have a quick question first. Uh, are you familiar with a new reformed work by Dr.

Klotfelter called Sinners in the Hands of a Good God? No, I'm not. Okay, Greg Kokel just interviewed this guy and Greg Kokel said it was one of the finest works he's seen, um, explaining, uh,

Calvinism, Reformed Theology. Really? Okay. All right. Yeah, I'm hoping it's not a repudiation of Edwards, but just a, uh, utilization.

No, it's actually, he even addresses Norm Geisler in it. Oh, well, you know, uh, that's something that's good to do.

Uh, some of us have done that and, uh, paid the price, but, uh, yeah. Now my, my real question is, uh, regarding, uh, compatibilism.

Mm -hmm. Okay, I'm familiar with, uh, the explanation of how God restrains the evil that man would do, but I don't really understand how it is that he, um,

I don't know how to even say it, um, allows or plants the desire or whatever for good works or good intentions.

Well, that comes from, uh, now are you talking there about common grace with an unregenerate person or are you talking about with a believer?

I guess both. Well, because see, those would be two different things. Uh -huh. The, the answer to a believer would be fairly easy, uh, because the fact that we, you have in regeneration, the creation of a, a new nature that, uh, that has those desires.

And so those are part and parcel of the, of the work of the spirit of God in, in, uh, in the heart, uh, it is, it is our nature to do good works.

And so the, the conflict of the Christian life is the, is the remaining sin and the battle that you, that you see there, uh, between those two, as far as common grace is concerned in an unregenerate person, that would be more of a, of a challenge at that point.

Uh, because, uh, at that point you, you basically have the same, I would say the same mechanism, uh, going on there, uh, where you have the gifts that are given by God.

And there's, there's two things to keep in mind here. We, if we're talking about doing good things in the perspective of, as people in channel are, are, are, uh, distracting me here,

I'm sitting here trying to talk to you about this important issue. And we have people in channel that are talking about, uh,

Bush winning Guam and then someone says, update, Kerry wins Iran. I mean, how am

I supposed to talk about serious stuff here when people in channel are doing that kind of stuff? Anyway, I will just have to try to ignore what's going on on my screen.

And get back to this issue. Uh, the, um, the issue really is when you talk about an unregenerate person doing something that's good, are they doing something that is morally good from a human perspective, which we'd say yes, but are they actually doing anything that is truly good from God's perspective?

And the answer to that is no, because in the sense that every action that they are going to be undertaking because they're in rebellion against God, because they're not doing it to the glory of God, because they're doing it for selfish means, they're all tainted.

That's why Isaiah can say all our righteousnesses are, are our best activities, uh, are filthy rags before God.

So part of the answer would be no one does good things in the perfect sense of God's holiness.

But what happens is God gifts men, uh, to be able, for example, to be doctors.

And, and I guess you could say that some lawyers do good things. I might be stretching things a little bit there.

Um, but, uh, I'm sorry, we'll know in a week. No kidding.

Uh, but, um, uh, hopefully you see the difference there. They are simply, uh, using the gifts that God has given them and God gifts men.

So as that societies, even when those societies do not have anywhere near a majority of believers in them, uh, continue to function and, uh, and so on and so forth.

So, uh, I think that would be the way to, to see that, uh, distinction between the two is that, is that they are doing things, they're doing things for their, for themselves.

Unregenerate men can be very, um, I mean, there's all sorts of undergenerate men who, who gave, who give their lives for their country.

They can be very patriotic. They can, uh, uh, you know, I, I'm thinking of, uh, uh, the formal card, former

Cardinals player, as far as I could tell was not a believer. Uh, but he was very patriotic.

And so he expressed his patriotism, gave his life for his country. Uh, those are all aspects of God's, uh,

Pat Tillman. Those are all aspects of God's, uh, common grace, uh, that, uh, that we see in societies.

And God uses that when he, when he gives lots of gifts to a society, it's a blessing upon the society, that society experiences, um, advancements and, and, uh, and a relative peace and things like that.

When he starts to, to, uh, withdraw that, that's when you start seeing a tremendous amount of, um, uh, uh, disruption of that society,

God's judgment coming upon that society. And, uh, I give you an example. Sure. Maybe you can explain it.

Uh, let's use Cyrus. Yes. Uh, God chose him and, and, uh, determined or, uh, decreed that he would help the people of Israel by guiding them home.

By, by, you know, letting them go free. Certainly. Right. Well, God can use, you know,

God can use Cyrus or Pharaoh in the exact same way. He uses Pharaoh to his destruction, to the, the demonstration of, of God's superiority over the gods of Egypt and to Pharaoh's own detriment.

Or he can use Cyrus in the way that he uses Cyrus. Uh, both men are, are guilty sinners before God.

God can use them as he, as he sees fit. Now as to the, the mechanism whereby Cyrus is going to, um, uh, uh, let the, let the people go.

Well, again, uh, you have the same type of situation there. God can, if God can harden

Pharaoh's heart, he can soften Cyrus's heart, uh, in either, in either direction. And, uh, so we know that there were

Jews that were very well known to Cyrus. He can incline the heart of the King toward, uh, those Jewish people and hence the

Jewish nation. We see that happening all the time in the Old Testament. It's funny how people, you know, struggle with that when in reality, if you just read the

Old Testament, it's a constant element of, uh, the hardening of this King's heart, the softening of that King's heart.

It's, it's all that God's doing that all the time. But somehow we get the New Testament, we forget about it and, and man becomes sovereign and, uh, that, that free will thing takes over.

And, and we forget all about the times that he, uh, he did that kind of stuff in the past. Okay, Paul.

Sounds great. Thank you. All right. Thanks for calling. God bless. Bye -bye. Let's, uh, head out all the way to Ossiland and, uh, talk with Peter.

Hi, Peter. Hi, James. How are you, sir? Oh, really great. I was sort of disappointed that, uh, the other call finished.

He did such a great job and, uh, it's very entertaining. I'm, I'm sorry? I was just thinking when he was talking about, um, those, uh, men doing good things.

Yes. Of, uh, Jeremiah 13, 23. You know, can the

Ethiopian change his spots? Right. And the, uh, I was just, sorry, the Eskimo, the leopard change his spots.

Then you, you who do evil or accustomed to evil can do good. Right. But, you know, we can't do anything good.

Now I was just ringing up about, um, your, your, uh, clips you played from Paige Patterson last week.

Right. And how he quoted all of those scriptures and yet, and then he came in and quoted all those

Armenian ones and, and didn't explain any of the things or attempt to even look at why the reformed position explains them.

Correct. And, you know, Eric as well, you were mentioning earlier today, uh, Eric the red.

Um, I hadn't thought of that, but, uh, yes, he was wearing red and his name is Eric. So yes. Yeah.

Um, they don't want to know, you know, really don't want to know what the reformed position is.

If they did, they could look it up, they could read it and they could answer it. Look, you know, they don't know what they're talking about.

And you assume, I think this is one of your biggest problems on your, your, your weak point. I think

I'm going to point this out. So you're going to be in a new, improved, um, James White that you assume that they, they do know and that they have got the ability to read the

Greek as well as you do. And I'm sure they don't. Well, I, well, well, well, hold on a second,

Peter. Now, now certainly Eric does not claim to be a, uh, a biblical scholar, but, but page page read through those verses and didn't really look at the, what they meant or the context of them.

Well, he did that. That's what he did with the Armenian verses, what the consumes considers, but he did show, uh, and I didn't play all of it by played a section of it.

Most of it anyways, he did show a certain level of knowledge of, uh, very rarely, uh, will you find a

Dave hunt, uh, quoting the passage from Peter about, uh, you know, that, that, that takes a little bit more, uh, study.

It, it, it does seem to me that page Patterson, uh, has taken a little bit more time now.

Now, does that mean that he, you know, I don't know what his level of, of knowledge of the

Greek languages and like that, but you know what? That's not really the issue. I, I think that, um, uh, you've got someone here who certainly is around reformed people enough to, if he truly desired to know more, he could, but he has learned just up to the point where it be, it hits his tradition and no farther.

And that's exactly the same thing with Norman Geisler. Norman Geisler is a very smart guy, but many, many years ago, uh, he got to the point where, okay, this is my understanding of what reformed theology is.

This is where it hits my bedrock tradition, which is his absolute libertarianism.

And therefore there's no more reason to think anymore. Go any farther.

That's it. That's, that's, that's what I'm gonna stick with. And I've talked to many people, especially when I was writing the book who sat down with Norm over the course of 25 years and tried to get him past that level and failed.

So I wasn't the first one. I won't be the last one. They tried and they ran into that, uh, tradition wall.

I've got a mother and father in law that, um, you get the brilliant call every month.

Yes. And, uh, I've tried to do a lot. Actually, I haven't just tried. I've just quoted what you've said.

Usually you've taken it on the dividing line each week to explain what Dave's read about is, um, uh, what is it?

This, what love is this? Or, um. Which he's now reprinted, by the way. In the brilliant call.

Uh, and I've just quoted what you've said and you've, you've answered the question before she's even asked it.

Uh, and you know, they've been given the answers. They've been shown quite clearly.

There's no problem with that at all. You know, there's no way around it. But what they do is they then change the topic and go to somewhere else.

Oh, sure. But they don't want to know. I'm sorry? They don't want to know.

No, uh, you see, I honestly believe that there, there has to be implanted in the heart of a believer, a spirit born, uh, desire to know

God's truth and be obedient to God's truth it, it has, it involves a, a, a recognition that I am not the arbiter of that truth.

That the word of God is the means by which that truth is communicated to me. And hence,

I need to be honest with the word. I need to handle the word of right. I need to subject my traditions, uh, to examination by the word of God.

I really believe that that is a spirit born thing. And I used to have a little tagline back in the days that I used to do a lot of writing on BBSs back in the days of Fido net and things like that in the 1980s.

And my tagline said, may God grant you an interview. And then it had the reference from Job where Job, uh, you know, uh, gets hit with all these rhetorical questions from God.

And his only response is I placed my hand over my mouth. Um, I am, you know, he sees his, his createdness over against God's creation.

And he, he realizes that he has misspoken, that he has dared to question what he should not question.

And that's what a person needs. And there's a lot of evangelicals, a lot of people, uh, who simply haven't come to that point in their life.

And as such, they, they, as a result, they are still satisfied with the, uh, the dry husk of their tradition that does not answer the questions.

It does not allow them to truly, uh, wrestle with the difficult passages, the word of God to discuss these things, but try as you may and try as I may, you cannot be the

Holy spirit for them. And I cannot be the Holy spirit for them. And unless we're going to become a hyper -Calvinist and start saying, well, you need to, you need to have had the exact same experience that I've had, or you're not truly saved.

Then, uh, we simply have to, uh, leave it to God. If we really believe that this is a work of grace, we can't force that on somebody.

You can't shove it down somebody's throat. And, uh, you can just show them where they, what they're quoting is out of context and and show them what the right way of taking it is.

They still don't accept it, but just as soon as you show them that they want to forget that. And let's look at another verse here that Dave Hunt's quoted.

Oh yeah, I know the passage about Job you're quoting, right. You know, and, and the people needing to have an interview with God, I think it's being a bit hopeful because Job was a righteous man, you know, before God's eyes, he says, is there anyone like Job in the whole earth?

He says that to Satan, you know, when he comes before him and, you know, it's pretty much like Adam is

Adam and there's Job and they both have this, um, opportunity to, uh, question

God or to, to, uh, be tested by God. And they're the best that man's got, you know,

Adam was created in the image of God and he had no sin. He, he had the ability to choose good and to do good.

Job was one of the most righteous men on earth. And yet they both failed. Of course, yeah.

We can say when it comes to, to, uh, you know, seeing God, I don't think that, you know, we can, we can measure up to those people.

And when we, we say, well, if they should have an interview with God, I think they should read the interview.

Well, I hope to achieve that, but you know, but, but I think there is, but I honestly think there is a, um, a common experience that I think, uh,

Reformed folks, uh, at least folks who have become Reformed from another tradition, uh, testify to.

And, and that is that, that self -shattering experience of coming to recognize the utter sovereignty of God.

There is a, there, there is a time when, uh, all of a sudden a person realizes

I am not God. God is, God is not, uh, dependent upon me.

God's actions are not determined by my authority over him. In point of fact,

God is sovereign over me. And he could, in fact, if he so chose not show mercy to me.

Yeah. And you call that conversion? Well, you know, uh, there is, there is a conviction of sin.

I'm talking here about a, a coming to understand who truly

God is in the sense of, of Genesis and, and the, uh, the, the control there over, uh, a man's very, very, uh, desires and sins.

And I know that I was not converted, uh, in my twenties.

I was converted as a youth. And no, I would not say it's the same thing as regeneration.

That, that becomes the hyper -Calvinist who in essence says, uh, that unless you buy every single point, then you're not actually a believer at all.

And, uh, I don't, I don't follow that in any way, shape or form. This is,

I think really where we discover, uh, to view ourselves in the way that God would have us to view ourselves regarding the entirety of our worldview.

I do believe it's a part of sanctification. I don't believe that it is a part of justification. Uh, so I would not agree.

I take it back to Adam and Eve and, and the problem I see with people that think they're right with God, but they don't make

Jesus their Lord in their salvation is that, um, they, they basically become their own

God. They're basically saved themselves by their own faith. They won't give

God glory. And how is that, that different to Adam and Eve that wanted to be like God?

Well, I'm not sure what you're referring to. If you, when you talk about someone saving, well, when Satan came to 10th day, she said, you know, take this, uh, he said, take the truth and you'll be just like God knowing the difference between good and evil.

She wanted to be like God. And these people proclaiming that they have chosen

God who was sitting in the corridor, just waiting, twiddling his thumbs, waiting for them to do something, uh, really take the glory away from God and the, um, they claim it for themselves, for their own salvation.

And I think until a person realizes that, have they really understood who they're talking with, with God? Well, uh, while I would agree that a person who presents

God as if he's just sitting in the corridor, for example, uh, the, the common and, and rather horrific illustration that, uh, that might have real application to Americans today.

And that is when people explain election, the Bible as a God has voted for you, uh,

Satan has vote against you and you have a tie breaking vote. Um, yeah, I mean, that is grossly.

Yeah, that's, that's grossly, uh, grossly sub biblical. And yet I have heard that, uh, explanation, uh, within the context where these individuals were, uh, uh, standing in the pulpits of, uh, of churches.

And, uh, they would have said that God is sovereign matter of salvation. Uh, they, these are people like I had mentioned earlier, a lot of evangelicals that what they believe about salvation and what they believe about God are two separate things.

And when they're talking about God, they'll talk about his sovereignty and his power and that nothing can frustrate his will.

They'll say they'll, they'll, they'll be right. Uh, but then when they talk about the gospel, they'll contradict everything that is said about God.

And there is a time that I believe the Holy Spirit brings a person to in his time where you are driven to put those two things together and realize, you know what?

I need to be consistent, uh, to the, to the glory of God.

And, uh, I don't necessarily believe that that is the very first thing that a person does when you take a, a drug addict and he is, uh, he is, uh, uh, at the bottom of the barrel and he, he turns to Christ.

I don't think that you should say that the very first thing that's going to happen is that he's going to go. I really need to make sure my soteriology and my theology proper are consistent with one another.

Uh, that's, uh, that, that takes, uh, that takes time and that takes, uh, But I think there's a lot of people that are going to be there in the day of judgment and going to say,

Lord, Lord, and he's going to say, I didn't know you. Uh, yeah, but I think there's also going to be a few folks stand next to, uh, the redeemed that they're going to go, how did you get here?

Uh, so, uh, I, I think we need to, uh, try to exercise, exercise our, our judgments in this life in, um, uh, with, with some, uh, with some charity, uh, because I know that I will need that, uh, that, uh, that charity as well.

So, uh, You know, humility is one of the fruits of the spirit. Yes, it most certainly is. I think that's something that you do gain, as you say, in, um, in sanctification.

But, uh, when you don't see it there, you know, 20, 30 years, people are still fighting against the

God who saved. Oh, uh, you know, certainly it's the longer, the longer a person is, is willing to, uh, reject, uh,

God's truth. When it's clearly explained to them over and over again, certainly the more, uh, weight that carries and more, more, uh, uh, very concerning that is without, without any question at all.

But, um, hey, uh, thank you for your call. We're out of time on the program today. I appreciate your calling. You're not fixing before you left for two or three weeks.

That's right. It's going to be, uh, two weeks from today before we get back again. But, uh, thank you for calling today. Thanks for all of you for listening today.

Obviously, I ask that you would be praying for, if you're outside of the United States, pray for this nation, uh, pray for believers in this nation.

Pray that, uh, God's, uh, God's will is going to be done. Uh, we know that his decree is going to be done, but our desire that his will be done, uh, means that we are willing to put ourselves on the line for the accomplishment of that will and that we will acknowledge, uh, his, uh, his

Lordship over us. And, uh, uh, obviously I'm very concerned about what's going on today, but I have to place that in God's hands and pray that, um, for, for my children and for my grandchildren, that they will still have a nation that, um, where we have freedom to do what we're doing right now and, uh, communicate the gospel, talk about the gospel of freedom without fear, without hiding.

Uh, that is something that is a great blessing to us and we need to be thankful for it. Two weeks from today at 11 o 'clock mountain standard time is when we will be back.

Please be praying for the debate and the conference this coming weekend. Thanks for listening. God bless. Been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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