February 10, 2021 Show with Dr. Phillip Kayser on “Biblical Romance: What Does the Bible Say About Finding a Spouse”

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 10th day of February, 2021, and I'm thrilled to have back on the program somebody that I thoroughly enjoyed interviewing not long ago for the very first time.

He came to me at the highest glowing and enthusiastic recommendations of my friend,

Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III, who you've actually heard as a guest on this program two days in a row here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm speaking of Dr. Philip Kaiser. He is an author. He is the pastor of Dominion Covenant Church of Omaha, Nebraska, and he is the founder of Biblical Blueprints and the

Dominion Institute, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to discuss biblical romance,

Phil Kaiser. Thank you, Chris. It's my pleasure to be with you. Interesting topic.

Not one that many people probably talk about on the radio. Well, since Valentine's Day is just around the corner, four days from now, which is also just to give my listeners a hint if they happen to be passing by a

BMW dealership, it is also my birthday. So, yes,

February 14th has actually been a curse, I think, for a birthday, because as long as I have been old enough to start dating when

I was a teenager, and then, of course, when I was married for nearly 20 years, on my birthday,

I always had to buy someone else a gift, because it was Valentine's Day as well.

Kill two birds with one stone, huh? Well, I actually felt like I was being gypped every time, because I had to shell out money on my own birthday.

But before we get into the discussion, which is actually a book that you have written, Biblical Romance, what does the

Bible say about finding a spouse? Let's find out more about Biblical Blueprints.

Well, Biblical Blueprints has been going for quite a number of years, and it is really designed to try to show people that the

Bible is sufficient to give the foundations for absolutely every area of life. One of the big projects that I'm working on is a great axioms project, it's kind of behind the scenes, showing how every axiom of mathematics, physics, logic, linguistics, we've got thirty different areas of life are right there in the

Bible, and form the foundation so that we can go out and do research in the world with confidence.

So I write, I lecture, I do conferences, we've got quite a number of different programs with Biblical Blueprints, trying to restore to the

Church a confidence in the Bible. Praise God, and if anybody wants to find out more information about Biblical Blueprints, go to biblicalblueprints .org,

biblicalblueprints .org. Now, let us know something about the Dominion Institute.

Yeah, Dominion Institute obviously has the same worldview, but this is taking a lot of the leadership issues, the worldview issues to other countries, it's mentoring pastors, church planters and others, and just providing resources, especially for the third world, but providing resources here in the

States as well. Great, and if anybody wants more information about Dominion Institute, go to dominioninstitute .org,

dominioninstitute .org. Last but not least, let's find out more about your church, where you pastor, and that is

Dominion Covenant Church of Omaha, Nebraska. Yes, we started this in the summer of 1999, and our goal is to keep planting churches.

This is like the fourth church in this area that we were involved in planting, and we are committed to exalting the kingship of Christ over all of life, enjoying his grace, and seeking to disciple people into the whole counsel of God.

So, it's a very conservative Presbyterian church, and part of the

Covenant Presbyterian church denomination. And if anybody wants more information about Dominion Covenant Church of Omaha, Nebraska, go to dominioncovenantchurch .com,

the only one of the websites I've mentioned that has com at the end, or dominioncovenantchurch .com.

Well, this is a subject that I think is a lot more important than people might see on the surface.

They might think this is just a cute, nice little cozy subject to have since Valentine's Day is around the corner.

But of course, those that have experienced, and perhaps still are experiencing the heartache of trying to find a spouse, the heartache of having found a spouse that turned out to be a nightmare because the person turned out to be perhaps a false convert, or even if they continue to profess

Christianity, perhaps they're extremely abusive or unfaithful. There's all kinds of things that have brought people through great trials in regard to this subject.

And also, when they didn't follow the biblical blueprint, to use the name of one of your organizations, they wound up courting, dating, getting married to people.

They had no business as a Christian to be pursuing as a lifelong spouse.

But can I ask you, what was the initial compelling reason that you had placed upon your heart, the burden that you had upon your heart, to write this book to begin with?

Well, we obviously as pastors get lots of questions on the ethics involved in many subjects, but that's including finding a spouse.

And with all of the courtship wars that have been going on with different perspectives out there,

I kept answering questions, answering questions, and I thought, you know, I need to finally get this down onto paper so that I can hand people a book.

There's a lot of legalism out there, and part of the reason for it is not that they don't have some biblical basis for what they're doing, but they've taken one of seven paradigms that the

Bible has given and insist that's the only way that you can do it. And because there are different expectations that two families may have when they're entering into some kind of a relationship with one of their children, they can have really hurt feelings because of the different expectations that were not met.

And so this is kind of helping them to navigate what those expectations are. There's actually a lot of liberty that the

Scripture does give, but it gives universal principles to get people to the altar, so to speak, pure.

The, you know, the Apostle Paul talked about presenting a bride as a chaste virgin to her husband.

Now, he's using that as an analogy of the Church and Christ, but that concept of a chaste virgin is not enough to get to the altar as a virgin.

He wants you to get to the altar as a chaste virgin without having a lot of regrets that are out there.

So I've seen people who had perfectly good intentions slide quickly into sexual involvement when they were dating.

They had no intention of committing fornication, but the very process of the kind of dating that they were engaged in almost guaranteed that they would fall.

And on the other hand, people have overreacted in the opposite direction, and they don't want there to be any romance or what

God intended for, for example, during betrothal section to be a really incredibly joyful time of learning all of the different arts of romance, the different languages of love has ended up being a very stifling.

And so then there's overreaction in the opposite direction. So what I call the courtship and the dating wars and the differing perspectives people have had on how to get married.

I'm trying to help people to navigate what the Bible says are the boundaries and what are the areas of liberty that we can have and what are the principles that can protect our daughters and our sons from anguish and from heartache in the future.

Well, I'd like you to go into more detail of examples on both ends of the spectrum of legalism and license when it comes to this whole subject, because I find what you're saying very interesting.

I have had guests on this program who, in the past, who have stood for very firmly an exclusive courtship understanding of pursuing a spouse.

And just to throw in my two cents, the thing that I have always said in reservation or apprehension about that prohibition of dating is that if you immediately start pursuing or request the courtship relationship with someone that you see at church or have been introduced to or et cetera,

I have told the folks that were promoting an exclusive courtship scenario that, to me, it would seem that that would make people more tend toward pursuing somebody that was physically attractive, very physically attractive, because you're going by initially the appearance of somebody.

If you don't even know them, if you haven't had any chance to have dinner with them or anything yet, what else are you basing this desire to begin courting them on?

But I don't know if I'm making sense there. But maybe I just put my foot in my mouth.

I don't know. No, I understand what you're saying, because it can go both directions on that.

If people get involved physically with each other, they may see dangerous signals like, wow, this person's worldview is quite different than mine, but they're already so committed in heart that they fail to talk through the big issues that need to be talked through before marriage.

And so, on the one hand, you don't want people to...

I mean, I'm actually not opposed to the kind of arranged marriages that happen in some of the

African countries. I grew up in Ethiopia, and I saw arranged marriages actually turn out rather well within Christian circles when they're talking through the biblical principles.

But on the other hand, there's arranged marriages that turn out not so good.

They're done just for purely the economic interests of the parents. I know there's a book out there that says, it's by Hauk, that says you need to be passive.

You shouldn't even look for a wife. And the illustration that he gives is of Adam being put to sleep, and God...

In other words, he was totally passive, and then he wakes up, and God gives him a wife. And yet the

Scripture commands us to seek wives. Even seek wives for our daughters.

Seek wives for your sons. And so, the Scripture allows the parents to be involved.

It allows the wife... I mean, the daughter to be involved, not just in terms of having veto power, but there were say that the woman needs to be able to marry whom she pleases, whom she desires.

And so, the woman, the man, the parents are involved. Obviously, we're looking for the

Lord's guidance in this. And what I have found is people camp out on a handful of Scriptures and don't look at the whole paradigm.

And that's where the legalism comes in. My way of approaching marriage is the only way.

Even dating, because it has so many different definitions, it can be problematic, or it can be, oh, it's much like what somebody else's courtship is like.

Courtship has so many different definitions. So I just, in this book, decided I'm going to avoid all labels, and we're just going to stick to what the

Scripture says. And instead of calling it courtship or calling it dating, I just call it seeking a spouse.

Well, when someone is beginning to do that, they see someone that they, obviously, there is typically, if not the vast majority of time, a physical attraction that one has towards the person of the opposite gender.

And what do you offer in your book, and what suggestions or counsel do you have to involve in this whole process of even how to approach a person?

There is the old -fashioned way that is probably rarely done, but it's even done,

I have heard on a number of occasions, by people who aren't even believers, but who perhaps they know the father of this woman who they'd like to start dating, and have such a high regard for this person and a high level of respect that they ask permission first.

Would you mind if I asked your daughter out to dinner? And, of course, for those who have the exclusive courtship view, they would phrase it differently, perhaps.

I have a very deep interest in courting your daughter to pursuing the possibility of marriage.

Do you give your blessings on this, et cetera? But tell us about your views on this and your counsel about any ideas that are biblically sound, that give us liberty, and even guardrails on approaching someone to begin some kind of a relationship.

Yeah, there are different passages that I use in the book that give general principles.

And again, when I say general principles, it's going to be maybe a little bit different for two young people who are wanting to get married, versus Boaz and Ruth, who are much older, and how they're going to approach it.

Genesis 24, people kind of frown on that, because here is a dad who has sent his steward out to find a bride for Isaac.

I say, man, I don't know if I would ever trust my dad. Well, if you don't trust your dad's judgment, you know, then yeah, that's not going to be a good thing.

We'll say he's an unbeliever. But there are fathers who could be totally trusted to find a spouse for their wives, and especially those who are having difficulty getting married, involving another pastor, and say, you know, could you help me find a spouse?

I think it's a perfectly appropriate thing to do. You know, one of the principles that I see in Genesis 24 is it's better to wait a long time than get married to the wrong one.

You know, Isaac was 40 years old when he took Rebecca as his wife in Genesis 24.

And yet, the other principle is we shouldn't just be waiting. We should be actively seeking and even being willing to think outside the box when we've not been able to find a spouse locally.

And so I've helped people find spouses by introducing people that I know from other churches.

So there's not one way of doing this. As I said, there's multiple models in the

Bible. What's given are principles to keep us chaste and virgins all the way to the altar, and those are laid out quite clearly by Paul in 1

Thessalonians chapter 4. A passage that some people interpret as just how to have self -control, but the word ketah amai is used in 1

Thessalonians 4 verse 4, where it says that each of you should know how to possess, as one translation, or obtain his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

And I take that as obtaining one's spouse. It's the same phrase that's used in 1

Peter 3 verse 7, that each of you, you know, that the wife is the weaker vessel.

Well, that each one should know how to obtain his own spouse in sanctification and honor.

In other words, there's ways you could do it where it's not very sanctified. It's not very honoring to the Lord. It's not following God's commands.

And he refers to the commands that God gives in the Old Testament in that passage.

So, in other words, my book draws out principles for obtaining a spouse in each of those passages.

And from what you've already said, you believe there is a liberty and variety of ways, as long as one is not doing something that God would find offensive.

Tell us about what you mean by avoiding reductionism. Well, reductionism is where you take one, like, for example, in this case, one model for finding a spouse, and then insist that's the only model, especially if the

Scripture is given several, explicitly given several models. So, for example, there's one book that is out there that outlines betrothal as being the only model.

I believe it's a legitimate, a very biblical model. There are examples of arranged marriages without any courtship and with a betrothal.

On the other hand, there's examples of courtship and betrothal. There's examples of, you know, even of an arranged marriage of a slave, which, according to Galatians 4, was treated just like your own child.

And so, normally you would try to negotiate and arrange a marriage between your child and the child of another family.

But in this case, there's two people who are under the authority of a parent, and they are getting married to each other.

So, in other words, there's a wide range out there, and you can derive universal principles from all of those paradigms.

And we're going to be getting much more deeply into the contents of this book,

Biblical Romance. What does the Bible say about finding a spouse? Right after our first station break, if you have a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n gmail dot com.

As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And this is one of those topics where I could definitely readily see and expect that people might want to remain anonymous, especially if they are in a situation involving pursuing someone that they would desire, at least right now, to have as a spouse.

Or perhaps they are in a difficult marriage situation, or whatever the case may be, this is the kind of topic that lends itself to people most likely wanting to remain anonymous.

But if it's a general question, a question on the Biblical teachings, a theological question on this area, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages with more of Dr. Phil Kaiser and Biblical Romance.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full program is

Dr. Philip Kaiser, and we are discussing his book, Biblical Romance. What does the

Bible say about finding a spouse? If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

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Now, you've used the word a number of times, and the word appears in your book, betrothal.

That is somewhat of an antiquated term, and you go through three different aspects of this, marriages without a time of discussion or betrothal, marriages with betrothal alone, and marriages after a season of discussion and betrothal.

If you could go into more detail about what betrothal means and the differences between those two aspects or approaches.

Yeah, betrothal is basically a contract to get married.

Marriage itself is a covenant, and betrothal can be a covenant, it doesn't have to be.

When the Bible speaks of marriages, it only speaks of one covenant of marriage, and that is at the time of marriage itself.

I define betrothal as a time where people, it's after you have gotten committed to getting married that you are learning the art of romance.

There are many women that wish that their husbands knew more ways to express love to them than simply in bed, and this is the perfect time to express non -sexual love to each other.

I think Hosea 2 is a marvelous example of God's perfect divine example of betrothal, where he says that he will allure his betrothed to himself, and where there's a lot of people in the betrothal movement who say, no, that's verboten, you cannot say

I love you, you cannot get your heart away during betrothal, but that's precisely the time when you should be giving your heart away.

Wow, I mean you would wonder how, especially a woman, would even want to consider marrying a man, unless of course he's stunningly handsome and incredibly rich, if he never says to her that he loves her or that she's beautiful,

I mean that seems strange. Right, well you'll see in evangelical circles all kinds of extremes where people bounce back and forth out of the betrothal movement and just say we're not even going to look at the

Bible for what to do, they just do whatever, but the Bible actually gives a great deal of freedom.

I view it almost like, and I think I use that illustration in my book, of how

God intended the Sabbath to be an incredibly joyful and delightful day, and yet the

Pharisees, trying to keep people from sinning, added a fence around the law and they added so many man -made regulations that turned a delightful day into an incredible burden, anything but a delight.

Well I see the same thing happening in some circles with regard to getting married.

They have seen the dangers of fornication and people basically getting involved physically with each other only to discover later they're not compatible with each other in terms of worldview or anything else, but it's almost too late now.

And so they've gone to the opposite extreme and they have borrowed from medieval Jewish practices that are not even biblical and they've said this is what betrothal is.

We need to allow the Bible itself to define betrothal, and as I was saying, Hosea 2 defines it as being a time that's not even necessarily chaperoned, where he speaks love to her, he speaks comfort into her life.

Hosea 2 verse 15 gives gifts, that's one of the languages of love is gift giving, and Adorah Pope speaks wonderful words with her, they sing together, in fact they're so in love with each other it's almost like the whole world has turned upside down is the language that's used in Hosea 2 verse 14.

So I see betrothal as a glorious time of showing all of the languages of love.

And there can even be touch, so long as it's not touch that arouses sexual desire, you know in 1

Corinthians 7 verse 1 Paul said, it's good for a man not to touch a woman. Well some people take that to the extreme and say okay, well we can't hold hands, we can't have a hand around the shoulder or anything like that.

Well if it arouses sexual desire in a person then they should not, but the literal rendering of that is to ignite a fire.

The word is good not to touch, and so anything that gets a person revved where it's almost like foreplay, you should avoid, and for every person that's going to be somewhat different.

But in Hosea 2 God shows what freedom and law together, in fact it's the perfect law of liberty isn't it, if God's law was not designed to take away freedom, it gives us maximum freedom.

One of the expressions that some people use as a railroad tracks is the law of God, and it gives a train maximum power, maximum freedom.

The moment it derails it gets itself into trouble. But anyway

I would just encourage people to read Hosea 2 verse 14 through 23, it's an incredible example of betrothal as God would speak of it.

You know a lot of people's engagements is really equivalent to a betrothal. So it's a different language, but it's a commitment.

I want to marry you, and you give a token, you know a ring or something like that as a pledge, yep we're going to get married.

That does not mean it can't be broken if you discover fraud, you know you discover this person was already married to somebody else or...

That would be big in me. Yeah, yeah exactly. As Gretchen Marx used to say, big in you, it's big in me.

Right. So when you look at life through the general principles of scripture that are universal, they can manifest themselves in quite a variety of ways of people getting married that might look different in different cultures, but the principles will always be applied.

And you know 1 Thessalonians 4 gives, what is it, seven or eight principles that will help us to get to the altar pure.

And one of those principles that he gives in the first verses is that you abstain from sexual immorality.

Now that's not just going all the way, but when you look at all of the definitions of sexual immorality, it would include petting.

It would include anything that leads to sexual arousal that's only really appropriate within the marriage.

We have an anonymous listener who says, do you believe in marriage after divorce?

My late wife was divorced before we were married and I had at least one very close friend who refused to come to the wedding because of that.

What is your opinion on that? Yeah, the whole question of marriage, divorce, and remarriage is a very controversial one within evangelical circles, but if you are the victim of a divorce, in other words, the other person divorced you, got married to somebody else,

I do believe that you are free to remarry. So the question is, is the divorce a biblical divorce?

If it is, then 1 Corinthians 7 says you are no longer bound by that marriage.

Not everybody agrees on this. You can find about five or six differing views on divorce and remarriage, but I follow what is written in the

Westminster Confession of Faith, that irresolvable abandonment and fornication for the believer is fornication for the unbeliever.

It's a situation where they just are not willing to live with you as a wife or a husband, which could involve sexual abandonment.

It could involve not giving food and clothing. Exodus 21 talks about even a slave wife, a person who married a slave, she can no longer be treated as a slave, needs to have the rights of any other full wife would have.

If he reduces her food, clothing, in other words, this is the maximum level with a nonbeliever, he refuses to supply food, sexual rights, and clothing, that woman was free to go out.

So I do believe that there is legitimate divorce, and the Bible makes a distinction between divorce between believers, which would be adultery would be the only case there, and for unbelievers.

And hopefully, you know, people who go to a Reformed church, like a Reformed Baptist church that holds the

London Confession, a Reformed Presbyterian church holds to the Westminster Confession, you could navigate those waters using those confessions.

And I have heard an excellent book being recommended to people who were struggling through that issue by John Murray.

Are you familiar with John Murray's book on divorce? I believe it's just called Divorce, but he affirms what you were saying.

Right, right. Roman Catholics do not allow for any divorce and remarriage.

What they do is they get around it by calling it an annulment. No one was married in the first place, which is really disingenuous.

Yeah, I found it both comical and tragic simultaneously.

When I say comical, I don't mean to undermine the pain that it caused the woman that I know, but it was comically ridiculous.

The excuse that her husband gave for filing divorce, he said,

I am returning to my Roman Catholic religion, so I want a divorce. That's really ridiculous.

That's like saying I'm buying stock in a pork butcher shop because I've become a

Muslim or something like that. It doesn't make any sense. Right, yeah. As far as that anonymous listener, oh, by the way, let me give the good news to that anonymous listener who asked about divorce and remarriage.

If you give me, of course, privately through an email, your full name and full mailing address, you have won a free copy of Biblical Romance.

What Does the Bible Say About Finding a Spouse by our guest, Dr. Philip Kaiser. And we thank

Dr. Kaiser for his generosity and the generosity of biblical blueprints for providing this free book for you.

We also thank our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, who will actually be shipping it out to you at no cost to you or to us at Iron Trip and Zion.

Thanks for the question. So I'm assuming then if you are interested in pursuing a relationship with a person who has been divorced, you should find out why.

Because as you were saying, even though you believe in a liberty to marry a divorced person, there has to be a biblical reason why the divorce took place to begin with.

Yes, because if a person divorced for unbiblical reasons, the

Bible says, what God has put together, let no man separate.

Only God can put a marriage apart. Just because men have put it apart with a divorce does not mean

God considers it apart. So there could be people who are involved actually in serial polygamy or serial bigamy because their previous divorces were not legitimate.

And so what I recommend is that they get their church to listen to all of the evidence from parties, examine witnesses, make a declaration on this being a legitimate divorce.

Or let's say it wasn't a legitimate divorce, but one of the partners got remarried and they were now fitting into the situation of Deuteronomy 21 where it says they cannot come back to the first partner.

That has broken it irreversibly. Then they could get remarried. But it really should take a church court to make that determination.

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania. And Arnie says,

I have a friend whose daughter abandoned Christianity and pursued a relationship with a man in a false religion and converted to this false religion and married this man.

What counsel or advice should I give to the parent of this woman and how to react, respond, and involve himself in the life that she now has with her new husband in this false religion?

Well, two things that I would say to them. The first is that you really do need to take seriously the whole issue of stewardship of whatever inheritance that you have.

A person who has abandoned the faith really ought not to receive an inheritance.

It's not your money. It's the Lord's money that you're passing on to the next generation. But the second thing

I would say is, even though that is true, you do want to keep open doors and continue to witness and reach out to these people.

Obviously, there could be other complications involved. This person might be undermining your home, undermining your other children, and you might have to cut off relationships.

But normally speaking, you want to keep open doors and hope to continue to reach them with the gospel.

There's a book I would recommend called Come Home Barbara that was written by a pastor whose daughter had gone astray.

Oh, I've actually seen that book. I've never read it, but I've seen it advertised in print. It's a good book. It's really an excellent book.

So life is complicated. It's got all kinds of messes, and the Bible not only gives the ideal solutions, but it also gives what to do in messed up situations.

For example, some of the paradigms that are given in the Bible for marriage you would not want because they're for messed up situations, like when you've committed fornication with a girl.

And that's not an automatic situation where there is marriage. The law of God in Exodus says you could mandate a marriage there and no possibility of divorce because of your lack of integrity in this.

But it's not automatic that a marriage has to happen. So the

Bible helps people to navigate with its principles all kinds of weird, messed up situations that are out there.

And that's why I recommend that people study all of these principles for courtship, courtship, betrothal, marriage, divorce, remarriage, what to do with polygamous situations.

You know, we grew up in Africa where people would come to faith and they're already married to three people, three women.

How do you deal with that? Because I know of Reformed Christian pastors in Africa who would not counsel the polygamist after becoming a

Christian to abandon those other wives and not to pursue anymore.

But how do you view that situation? Right. And again, that's controversial. The mission agency that my parents were with in Ethiopia made them take care of the second, third, and fourth wives, but only have sexual relations with the first one.

And I'm thinking, well, now you're depriving the second, third, and fourth as well.

My own view is that 1 Timothy says that elders cannot be the husbands of one wife, but it's assuming that there are others in that church.

And he must be the husband of one wife. You said cannot. Exactly. And so what

I would say is a pastor should tell this husband his responsibility to nurture, care for, sexually provide for all of his three, four wives.

He's going to be kept so busy, so tired. He's never going to be tempted to marry anyone. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and please be patient with us.

It's longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to localize all of their programming geographically to Lake City, Florida, according to the

FCC. So while they air their own public service announcements and other local things, we air our globally heard commercials.

So therefore, please, while you listen to this break, write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers, which will help to ensure, further ensure that our advertisers will remain our advertisers because that is absolutely crucial for us to remaining on the air.

We need our advertisers and the finances that come from their ad campaigns to exist. We do not receive enough donations, not nearly enough donations alone to rely upon those funds solely as a way of keeping on the air.

So please try to patronize our advertisers as much as possible, further ensure that you'll do that by writing down the information.

And remember, sometimes when you can't actually patronize an advertiser, you can't purchase their products, use their services, visit their churches, just reach out to them in the ways they provide, phone number, email address, website.

Reach out to them and thank them for sponsoring Iron Trump and Zion Radio. That is, if indeed you love the show and you are grateful for their advertising, which keeps us on the air.

So at least thank them and also write down questions for Dr. Philip Kaiser on biblical romance and send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

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Before we return to our guest today, who is Dr. Philip Kaiser and our discussion on biblical romance, we just have a few very important announcements to make.

First of all, tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we have returning to the program for part two of a discussion that we began a number of weeks ago,

Jim Osmond. He wrote a book called God Doesn't Whisper. It is a refutation of those that believe

God uses extra biblical divine revelation and still small voices and other things to guide and instruct

His people today. Jim Osmond believes completely in not only

Sola Scriptura, that the Scriptures alone are our sole, final, inerrant and infallible authority over the

Church today. He also believes in the sufficiency of Scripture. And I'm sure that you will be blessed if you listen to this program tomorrow.

John MacArthur wrote the foreword to the book. And tomorrow, part two of our discussion, we're going to be focusing on Muslim experiences with extra biblical visions and dreams and other so -called extra biblical divine revelation that is very often a part of the salvation testimony of Muslims.

So we're going to be focusing on that, although not talking about that exclusively. On Friday, we have returning for another part two, the man that you've been hearing in a lot of ads on Iron, Sharpens Iron, Dr.

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Again, go to Iantrepansironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a local

Bible -believing church, a thoroughly sound, biblically faithful church, no matter where on the planet earth you live,

I may be able to help you find a church, sometimes even within minutes from your own home.

I have helped people find churches all over the globe, close to their homes, that they didn't even know existed, or sometimes they knew that the churches existed, but they didn't know that they were biblically faithful.

I have very extensive lists spanning the globe of faithful churches, so no matter where you live, send me an email if you are in that position of not having a biblically solid church home.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in a question to Dr.

Philip Kaiser. And our discussion again is biblical romance. What does the

Bible say about finding a spouse? chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a private and personal matter.

And let's see here. We have another anonymous question, and the anonymous listener asks,

I have heard from some that since it was forbidden in the Old Testament to marry a woman that you've already divorced, does that follow through to the

New Covenant, as I have heard some insist? In other words, if you've divorced a woman, can you ever marry her again?

Yeah, good question. It does not say that you cannot marry a woman that you have divorced.

Deuteronomy 21 says that you cannot marry her if she has subsequently gotten remarried.

So there are people out there that say that second marriage is not legitimate, and so you need to divorce that second husband and go back to your first husband.

But Deuteronomy 21 absolutely forbids that. Jeremiah 3, as well, says that it's an abomination that defiles the earth.

And the New Testament does not change the Old Testament laws on divorce and remarriage.

This is one of the issues you can test a book on, whether it's good or not. But almost every passage in the

New Testament that deals with divorce and remarriage upholds the Old Testament laws in the immediate context.

In Luke, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle of the law will pass away. And then the next verse talks about divorce and remarriage.

Romans chapter 7, you who know the law, don't you know that the law says that a man is bound to his wife until she dies?

And people say, okay, well, what then, if you're bound till she dies, why could there be any divorce whatsoever?

And the answer is that in the Old Testament, there were death penalties for adultery.

And divorce was allowed as a lesser penalty.

A person could have mercy upon the spouse, just like Joseph did. It says being a just man, not wanting to make a public example of her, that would be stoning her.

He decided to put her away privately. And so divorce, according to the

Westminster Confession, as well as according to the London Confession, is treated as if the person, if it's legitimate, it's as if the person has died.

Instead of calling for the death penalty, you say, I'm just going to file for a divorce. And so that would break the marriage.

But anyway, the point is, Romans 7 even is upholding the Old Testament law, which clearly allowed for divorce and remarriage.

Well, thank you, Anonymous. Make sure you email us your real full name and your mailing address so that you can also receive a free copy of Biblical Romance, What Does the

Bible Say About Finding a Spouse? And we want to thank Dr. Phil Kaiser, our guest today, and biblicalblueprints .org,

and also Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, for making sure that that book is mailed to you, free of charge to you and to us.

We have yet another anonymous listener who says, I keep hearing from very conservative and reformed pastors that the only two allowances for a biblical divorce are adultery and abandonment.

But what about a spouse that is habitually beaten and treated with physical violence?

What is the option for such a victim? Okay, that's a great question.

And my answer to it would be that if this husband, both of you are members of a church, you need to be taking that to the church elders and asking them to confront him if he does not repent and stop.

He needs to be escalating that discipline, have the discipline escalate into the point of excommunication, at which point you treat him as if he is an unbeliever.

So with an unbeliever, then you have to define in 1 Corinthians 7, what does it mean he's unwilling to live with you?

And that has got to be defined in a way that's consistent with the passages in Ezra.

Ezra did not make every person who had married an unbeliever, divorce that unbeliever.

He judged each case according to the law. And of course, when you go to look at the law, it was if they were engaged in capital crimes, if they had committed any kind of abuse.

So I interpret the Exodus 21 passage as being the minimum definition of abuse.

I think abuse has been way overblown, and people get divorces for what they say emotional abuse.

But the minimum definition of abuse is a person who is getting no food, no clothing.

They're out there shivering. They're not being provided for. No sexual rights. If you go for years with no sex with your spouse, you have been de facto abandoned.

Now, if you're a believer, that's not grounds for divorce. You'd take the believer to your church court and you ask them to confront him.

If he still refuses to give you your sexual rights, which you are covenanted to give to each other, he will be excommunicated.

And at that point, he's not willing to live with you. You are free to divorce him. So again, 1 Corinthians 7 has to be defined by the rest of scripture.

Now, I'm assuming you mean that somebody who is medically and physically capable of continuing intimacy in the marriage, because obviously people become paraplegics and so on.

I'm sorry? Yes, correct. If a person is medically incapable, then obviously that's not a willful sin.

And that's a part of the for better or for worse vow that is often made in a marriage, and in sickness and in health.

Thank you for that clarification. Yes, that would be a providential hindrance rather than a willful sin. Yes, I am always utterly amazed and in awe and humbled when

I witness and hear about these loving, adoring women who remain married to their spouses.

Even very often, they're not Christians at all. But if their husband has been wounded in battle in a serious way that would prohibit him or prevent him from having marital relations, or perhaps any number of things.

It could be a police officer or a fireman or any other person who's a victim of an accident. Yes. To see that woman or man, but it's typically

I'm seeing it involving a woman in the media anyway, standing by him.

And that's just such a moving and touching and profoundly amazing thing.

Now, if a man is only has a disability in his sexual organ, there is no reason why he could not still lovingly satisfy his wife sexually.

Yeah, that's another thing that you were mentioning. Or should I say, not that you were mentioning, but that I was wondering about, because there are

Christians who might even agree with us theologically and doctrinally on many things, if not most, who think that all those things are prohibited even from the marriage bed.

That it's only your standard sexual penetration that is acceptable with the idea of the possibility of conceiving a child, and everything else is just totally wrong.

Right, right. And yet the Song of Solomon talks about a great deal of richness there.

There are many women who cannot even come to orgasm with the standard missionary position, type of approach.

And yet the Bible says that she has rights in that regard as well that the husband needs to minister to.

It's good to go to a doctor and see if there's reasons why, but there's not just one way that the

Song of Solomon says that she could be ministered to and come to orgasm.

We have yet another anonymous listener who says,

I haven't heard anything yet about internet dating or internet matchmaking.

I have tuned in late, so I don't know if I've missed something, but is this appropriate as long as the possible spouse you are pursuing is also a

Christian? Yes, I think there could be a number of creative ways of searching for a spouse.

Some people are just too passive. If there's nobody in the general area, they just feel like they have to give up.

I give an extended treatment, for example, of Genesis 24, where I go through over 21 principles.

Maybe it's 24 principles that I derive from there. And one of those is involve other people.

Internet could be one way of involving other people, but so can pastors and so can relatives and friends helping a person to search for a spouse.

You want to make sure that they have the same worldview that you do and that they understand your desires, your passions, your personality, so they're not just getting the next willing person to marry you.

And you want to make sure as well that you're doing due diligence. I've seen women really taken advantage of.

For example, my aunt thought that the person that was in the choir there and in the church, she didn't speak

English very well, she came from Germany, thought that he was a Christian. As soon as they got married, he said,

I was just pretending to be a Christian to get a good submissive wife. And he was an abuser.

He was horrible. Wow. I have heard of the exact same scenario.

A woman that I knew from a distance who was a member of my brother's church when

I was a teenager, but I knew her, I met her at social gatherings. She eventually got married.

She was dating, actually she might have even been living with a man that was not a believer before she was saved.

Then she left him because she became a Christian and she said she would never marry him unless he became a

Christian also. And he made a profession, was baptized, and on her honeymoon, he said, guess what?

I made it all up. And he turned out to be a nightmare of a husband and was unrepentantly, habitually involved in serial adultery.

Yes, yes. And so that's where having other people involved, you know, the norm is for parents to be involved.

Even with Samson, who was a grown man, he had his parents involved. And now in that case, they weren't making a good decision, were they?

But if you have people that you trust, who share your worldview, understand your passions, what you're called for, called who, they can help you to navigate these kinds of waters and get married.

I've seen arranged marriages actually turn out wonderful. Well, you know, you probably heard if you were listening, one of my commercials, one of my sponsors is

Dr. Bhanu Gadi, who is a pharmacist. And he owns several pharmacies and he has his doctorate in pharmaceuticals.

And he is from India. And I believe if I'm not mistaken, before he was a

Christian, he and his wife were married as the result of an arranged marriage between their families.

And he loves this woman. Now that they're saved also, there was no regrets. He said, oh,

I think that was just the best thing in the world that ever happened to me, that arranged marriage. He's just thrilled to death. But obviously, that doesn't mean that his case is the blueprint for everybody else.

Yes, yes. Well, you know, in both of our daughters, it was the parent of the young man who approached me and said,

I think my son would like to marry your daughter. Well, you know, interested.

And we're not shy about approaching each other in situations like that. There's nothing lost if a person says, no, my daughter is already interested in somebody else.

But in this case, we negotiated with each other, the two parents. And we both knew our children were interested, but we wanted to make sure that there were things in place.

And it took some of the emotion, some of the fear, some of the angst out of it. And people who follow the principles laid out in my book, they find that a lot of the anxiety and stress that's involved in dating is taken out of it.

And people feel free to share with each other, dig into their worldviews, what their opinions, what their dreams and visions are, and realize, you know what?

We probably are fit for each other. Let's go to the next stage. It really takes a lot of the guesswork out of things as well, because you're immediately diving into serious issues.

But I encourage people to utilize some of the principles for long distance, potential relationships, and do it in a way that you avoid these disasters that happen through internet dating, where people pretend to be somebody that they're really not.

Yeah, I guess that would be a nightmare. Now, here's another issue, since you actually brought up the involvement of parents.

I have even heard very conservative, Reformed pastors say that a person should never marry another person if the parents of that person, or if your parents totally object and refuse to give their blessing to the union.

How do you feel about that? And also, compare the scenarios to having lost parents and saved parents.

Right, right. And again, it's hard with one answer to cover the wide range of situations that are out there.

But I think that there can be a place in certain situations where parents, for example, let's say that the parents are really abusive parents.

I've known parents who have made the decision they're never gonna let their daughter marry because they want that daughter to take care of them.

So it depends on what's the reason why. First Corinthians chapter 7 does indicate that a father, well, at least on some translations, that the father has the right to say, no,

I don't think so. Not at this time. But he does not have the right to say, my daughter can never marry.

In fact, John Calvin, in their session, they brought people up for discipline for saying that the daughters cannot marry.

That's not a lawful order that a parent, even parents have limits to their authority.

Churches have limits to their authority. So there's not one answer that can answer everything. But parents can, at least while the daughters are living at home, annul even a promise that a daughter has made,

I'm going to marry this person. He ends up being a scoundrel. And the parents say, you made a vow, but Numbers 30 says

I can annul that vow. And the daughter later says, thank you, thank you, thank you for having done that. But there's not any one situation out.

If a daughter leaves home, again, there's not going to be the same authority that a parent has over that daughter.

Numbers 30 is quite clear. It's while the woman is at home, which is the ideal. I think it's ideal that women not leave home until they get married.

But not all homes are ideal. So the Bible gives answers even to the messed up situations of life.

Like the one I mentioned earlier, where the parents really are abusive and not willing to live according to God's laws.

Well, there could be a situation there where the young people would get married with hopefully the involvement of the elders and they all agree this is a bad situation.

But there is no one right answer. There's general principles in the

Word. And then the Bible lays out quite a number of examples of how those general principles are applied.

Yeah, and you could have a parent or parents that have nothing.

Well, you already kind of mentioned it, or not even kind of, you did mention it. They have sinful, selfish motives for prohibiting a child from being married, like being taken care of, but having themselves taken care of by the child.

But there's also racism that could be a factor. You could have people who are bigots who don't want their daughter or son to marry a black person if that family happens to be white.

And that is a total unbiblical, in fact, a sinful reason for prohibiting a marriage, isn't it?

Yes, it is. It is. And, you know, it may seem a strange thing to even talk about the slave situation.

They're more like indentured servants, but they're temporarily adopted by that master.

Well, Deuteronomy mentions examples where without the parent's permission, they are married to each other.

They go through the whole betrothal, courtship and everything. Why? Because the master of that slave was the new authority.

So if a parent has abandoned, failed to support, and this girl has gone to live with a pastor or somebody else, is she going to have to get her parent's approval to marry?

I mean, it's been a total abandonment. No, she's now under the protection and authority maybe of that pastor who she is living with.

And I would say in a situation like that, it would be the pastor and the father of the boy that would arrange that marriage or help it to move forward.

And I think we are breaking a record here for the greatest number of anonymous listeners asking questions, but I was sort of expecting it with a subject like this.

We have an anonymous listener who wants to know, is it ever appropriate to enter into a marriage where the woman is going to be the primary breadwinner and the husband is a house dad raising the children at home?

Well, can I say never? The Bible does indicate that a woman ordinarily should not get married to a man when he's unable or unwilling to support him.

It's one of the reasons for the dowry system, which would be equivalent to a person buying insurance today, because the dowry really was to protect a woman in case of divorce or death.

It gave her some insurance she could fall back on. And so when a person is not able to support a wife, he's not really doing the kind of financial leadership the

Bible would call for. But let's say they've gotten engaged, he had a job before. Would it be okay to follow through on that marriage when he became completely disabled and maybe there's insurance that could help to support the family?

I'm not willing to say no. It would be an odd situation, but they're already engaged, yes.

You could even have just a situation where like Lydia, who is a seller of purple, I don't know what her husband did for a living, and she might not have been a widow.

I don't know. But from what I understand, that's a very expensive commodity that she was selling.

In fact, even the proverbial ideal woman is somebody who buys property and sells it and so on.

Could you not have a situation where the woman, before they're even married, makes 20 times what her hardworking fiance does?

Now, I'm not talking about a lazy bum, but a man who's just realized he might be a janitor and she might be a doctor.

So they come to the conclusion, hey, I think it's best if you, Bill or Bob or John or Joe, stay home and raise the children while I go out and do brain surgery.

Yeah, you'd want to judge each situation on its own merits.

But I'm one of those old -fashioned people that says, generally speaking, the husband ought to be at least employed and bringing in the primary income.

God made women to be the nurturers. There are so many scriptures that speak of her nurturing role within the family, and even physiology, brain physiology, shows that women are much more capable of managing many, many different things at the same time than the average man would be, obviously.

Yeah, that's definitely true. I know from my own experience, my late wife was much more capable of doing multitasking.

Right. But I would be reluctant to give an absolute no on situations like that.

There could be situations, I'm sure, that would fit the biblical principles and still not be quite there.

But, wow. To have a person, marry a person who's completely disabled, and it's almost like marrying a child, a dependent.

I'm not going to say it can't happen, but that would be a difficult one for me. Well, I'm going to go to the final break, and let me ask a follow -up question.

We were talking before about somebody who is unable to provide sexual intimacy in the standard understanding of that because of a disability that occurs after they're married.

What about people who get married where one of the people is quadriplegic or something?

But we'll have you answer that when we come back, and if we have time for one or two listener questions, we'll take them.

And again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of Philip Kaiser. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Welcome back. And we have here for the final moments of the program today, our guest,

Dr. Phil Kaiser, discussing biblical romance. And if you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Dr. Kaiser, is it appropriate and biblical and within the liberty of a

Christian to marry someone that you know beforehand is not capable of providing sexual intimacy like somebody who is physically disabled?

Yeah, I would say no. You can call me a legalist, but I would say no, just like I would say no to the previous question.

You know, the husband takes a wife to himself and he had to prove his ability to support himself and his wife with a dowry or something equivalent.

I mean, David's equivalent was that he could protect, he could defend. 1

Timothy 5, 8, you know, if anyone does not provide for his own, especially those of his own household, he is denied the faith.

He's worse than an unbeliever. Anyone there is a masculine. I think it's specifically directed to the father.

So I would make a distinction between what has happened before. If you're disabled before marriage, you shouldn't get, he should not get married.

If he's disabled after marriage, well, then it's providential and you do the best that you can.

But if there was an exception, let's just say theoretically there was an exception that husband and wife would both have to think through what are the consequences of this?

What's the trajectory to my leadership? Will she be the de facto leader because she is the de facto breadwinner?

But anyway, I'd say no to both on the, if you're sexually unable to provide for your own, that's one of the inherent requirements, you know, in Exodus 21 and in other passages, not only to provide sexual, but it's at least the promise, the hope to raise up children.

It's one of the things in both the New Testament and the Old Testament, first Timothy, you know, on the wives as well, first Timothy five,

I desire that younger women marry, bear children. So the dominion mandate to raise children, if you know deliberately that that's not possible,

I know there's people disagree with me, but I would say, well, that's really at the essence of marriage.

And I would say no. Well, since we only have about four minutes left, I'd like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today regarding this subject.

Well, I would say for sure, don't allow some of the legalistic paradigms or the failed paradigms that are out there rob you of your confidence that the

Bible gives everything that you need to be able to develop a godly romance into marriage.

And, you know, read through First Thessalonians chapter four, read through the principles laid out in Genesis 24, and see if this does not lay out a beautiful paradigm for marriage that's flexible enough to deal with all of the difficult situations of life.

And even utilize parents. A lot of people are reluctant to involve their parents or to involve pastors or others, but involve others in this search.

It adds objectivity to the search for a spouse. And especially if you have nobody that's available currently in your locale, look at some of the creative principles for finding a spouse, utilizing pastors from a distance.

How about eloping when you, especially if you have good, solid, loving

Christian parents on both sides of the marriage is eloping where you just come back from a vacation and you break the news to your entire family.

Guess what? I'm married. Is that okay? No. I think it's an honoring of our parents to involve them right from the start.

I think the general norm, though it's not, there are exceptions of the Bible, obviously, is the parents actually do the initiation, generally speaking.

Now, the guy can initiate. Ruth's is an example of the woman can initiate. But we ought to involve our parents unless they just lack all wisdom.

And we have to bypass it. And then it's good to get the input of your pastors or people that you really respect.

How about you meet a person of the opposite sex, whether you are a man who meets a woman or a woman who meets a man.

This person is not a believer. And perhaps you meet them at work, wherever you meet them. And you say, will you start visiting my church with me?

And I'd love for you to get to know what I believe. And is that an acceptable way to pursue initially a possible spouse when you're pursuing an unbeliever with the hopes that they get saved and you're inviting them to church?

Absolutely not. People talk about that being evangelistic dating, you know. There needs to be really a history of all of the character principles that are in place.

In fact, I've written two books that help a woman to see, is this young man really ready for marriage?

And it goes through 35 areas of life. And it's got over 600 diagnostic questions to see where is the person at.

Now, nobody's going to be perfect. But then I've got another one for women. It's called Mature. And they're both free online on kaisercommentary .com.

And you can grade yourself and it'll help you to grade it right there online.

So the mature daughter shows a young man, is this woman ready for marriage? And you cannot be ready for marriage if you are not yet a believer or if you've just become a believer.

There's character issues that need to be in place so that you don't bring all kinds of baggage into the marriage.

And going back to something you were saying earlier about perhaps young men, especially learning the art of romance, as it were.

I have heard from so many Christian women, single women, who are so frustrated by their brothers in Christ who are totally socially inept and incapable of doing anything that would make them look like an attractive possible spouse.

And that's why they get very often lured or at least tempted into dating people that are not even saved.

If you have any comments on how a young man can learn more about that. Yes, and I think pastors need to be involved in this.

I meet with all of the young men in our congregation that are 20 years and above. And I do a lot of mentoring and leadership training and trying to get them ready for marriage.

But pastors read this book and see what they should be involved in. Because I think many pastors are derelict in their duty to protect some of the young women and men in their congregation.

They're not preaching or at least counseling the whole counsel of God when they neglect all of these passages that deal with romance.

They're afraid that people will think of them as old and stuffy. And yet the Bible's liberating. It's got beautiful guidance for romance.

And if we don't follow it, it's only to our own hurt. Well, I want to repeat your websites. biblicalblueprints .org

is one. And the dominioninstitute .org

is another. And of course, the Dominion Covenant Church is dominioncovenantchurch .com.

That's for Dominion Covenant Church in Omaha, Nebraska. Thank you so much for being such an excellent guest, Dr.

Kaiser. I look forward to your return very soon and very often. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater