May 22, 2017 Show with John Samson on “The Five Solas: Standing Together ALONE!” PLUS Carlton Wynne on “The Preacher’s Mysterious Ministry (Eph. 3:1-13)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 22nd day of May 2017.

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And I have returning to Iron Sharpens Iron today one of my favorite guests, a man who very quickly became a close and dear friend to me over the past several years.

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His name is John Sampson. He is pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

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You may frequently hear him as a fill -in host for Dr. James R.

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White of Alpha Omega Ministries on his Dividing Line program, and he was just on recently, in fact, twice while Dr.

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White has been traveling in the UK and other places debating and teaching. But today we have

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John speaking on his new book, The Five Solas Standing Together Alone, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, John Sampson.

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Thank you so much, Chris. It's always a delight to talk to you and to talk about some very important things, and it's a privilege to be with you today.

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Amen, and in studio is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Hello once again, and John, it's good to be on with you.

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Great to be with you, Buzz. And the second hour of today's program, we are going to be blessed by Carlton Wynn, assistant professor of systematic theology and apologetics at Westminster Theological Seminary in Glenside, Pennsylvania, and he is going to be addressing

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The Preacher's Mysterious Ministry, taken from Ephesians 3, 1 -13, which is actually his topic at the upcoming

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Banner of Truth U .S. Ministers Conference, going to be held very shortly, coming up on the 30th of this month, as a matter of fact, running through June 1st, and that's going to be in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at Elizabeth College.

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But he will be on, as I said, God willing, during the second hour of today's program.

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But John, as we typically do, for those of our listeners who are discovering you and King's Church of Peoria, Arizona for the first time, why don't you let our listeners know about King's Church?

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Yeah, we're a Reformed Baptist Church here in Arizona. We started just in a home and moved into a facility where we enjoy welcoming people of all ages, even though the facility itself is normally used as a senior living facility.

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We have it on Sunday and Wednesday night, and some from the place come from that facility, but we welcome people of every age and nationality.

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We even let English people in there. Which reminds me, on July 5th, we plan on having

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John Sampson back on the program to continue this discussion, which I'm sure we cannot confine to a one -hour interview, and we purposely...

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It's definitely not the 4th of July, right? That's right. We did not want to tarnish that sacred day by having a

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Brit on the program. You took off the shackles of the tyranny of the

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British Empire. Don't welcome them back until the 5th, that's right.

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Or I may rethink that and have you on just so I can humiliate you. That's right.

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You have the gift of humiliation. But also, some of our listeners, or maybe all of our listeners, would be interested to know that my dear friend

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Rich Pierce, of many years, going back to 1995, I believe. Rich Pierce, who is the president of the aforementioned

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Alpha and Omega Ministries, where Dr. James White is the director. Rich Pierce is a member of King's Church, and doesn't he have some kind of speaking role, teaching role there at King's Church?

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Yeah, he heads up the Adult Sunday School right now, and he's really developing as a gifted teacher in his own right.

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And he's been behind the scenes, behind James White for decades, and I think the

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Lord is pushing him out in his other giftings. So it's really exciting to see him and his dear wife,

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Marianne, be part of the King's Church. Yes, in fact, I have thoroughly enjoyed

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Rich Pierce when he fills in on occasion also for James White on the dividing line.

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And he certainly is, as I said, a gifted brother in Christ. Well, obviously, this is the 500th anniversary of the

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Protestant Reformation. And that's obvious, actually, to those who are theologically

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Reformed, or perhaps Lutheran. Perhaps many others have no clue of that fact.

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But that, I'm sure, is one of the catalysts behind the new booklet that you have written,

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The Five Solas, Standing Together Alone. Why don't you tell us something about the genesis of this book that you have written?

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Well, regarding the book itself, I just believe that this is central to the

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Scriptures, these five doctrines known as the Five Solas that really came out of that Reformation period.

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And the idea was that starting with Scripture being what it is,

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God's Word, then the other four doctrines come out of that.

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And in my work as a pastor, I long to see people get hold of these truths.

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And I was looking around for something that was short, but packed enough punch so that it would actually change lives and help people understand these vital truths.

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And there are some tremendous books already written on this theme. And I thought, that's great.

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And I've given them out to people and said, please read it. And a month later, say, how'd you go with that? And I'm finding that a lot of people don't read much.

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And if it's anything over 150 pages, they're intimidated by that. And I thought, is there something out there that is brief enough so that someone's not intimidated, they can grasp it even when they're new to the

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Christian faith or not really observant and knowledgeable of these things?

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Perhaps they've been a Christian a long time and still haven't been exposed to these things. I couldn't find anything that was really something that I could say

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I can hand that to anyone, because I would want to have it and then give it to 40, 50 people, you know, visitors to the church, people who are making inquiries, have something available.

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And so I thought, you know what, I'm going to sit at my desk and see if I can write something that would fill that need.

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And so that's what I've done. And it's a short book, probably takes 40, 45 minutes to read.

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And the great comfort I had was in my mother's passing, which was two weeks ago, just before she passed away, she was able to have this manuscript read to her, and it just brought an amazing comfort.

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She was really struggling physically in a lot of pain, and it just calmed her.

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And again, just hearing the gospel expressed clearly is what we need to hear at such a time.

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So in my own heart, if that's all that happens is the manuscript is read to my mother, that's great.

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But the good news is it's being published and should be available by the end of the month here in May.

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Amen. Well, I'd like our listeners to pray for John and his family after the passing of their precious mom.

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And I have been doing that as well. I know what it was like myself to lose a mom that I was very close to back in 1995.

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My mother departed this earth at the age of 70 from pancreatic cancer, and it was such a relief beyond words to know that she had come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and the gospel.

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Having been a very loyal and dedicated Roman Catholic her entire life, she began to shed the baggage of Rome on her deathbed.

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And it was not just something that she did in a weakened state when she didn't know what she was saying.

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She was consciously rejecting prayer to saints and their images, and especially

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Mary, of course. And she was putting her entire trust in the finished work of Christ on Calvary without me spoon -feeding her answers to questions.

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These were things that were coming from her heart genuinely, and it sure was a blessing to God for me to know that.

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And I know that you share that joy. Joy I have regarding my own mother. I'm so glad you can say that about yours,

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Chris. That's wonderful. Amen. And well, let me give our listeners our email address. It's by explaining, because there are people that listen to this program that are not

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Reformed, and sometimes they are not even Christians. I even have Muslims on occasion listening.

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And of course, Buzz Taylor is my co -host, and he's lost. But if you could list the five solas of the

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Reformation that you are talking about. Yeah. The five solas, it's a

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Latin word, sola, that means alone. And really, in coming to the

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Scripture, we need to find out, first of all, what is Scripture? And the

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Bible is very clear as to what it is. It's God -breathed materials inspired by God.

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And we as Christians embrace the Bible as God's Word. And when we go to God's Word, it speaks of itself alone as having the authority to literally bind the human conscience.

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We have no right to disobey God. And we know that as a fact,

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He's our Creator. We owe Him our allegiance. And since, rather than if, but since God has spoken in His Word, and because it's

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God -breathed material, it's what He has said and what He's declared, we are to submit our life and our thoughts and our thinking and our actions and our decisions to God's Word.

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And it's that Word alone that says, only the Bible has the authority to bind the human conscience, in that sense.

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We appreciate the insights of scholars and teachers in the Church and even popes and priests and pastors and all of those who work in the

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Church, but none of them individually, or even all of them collectively, rise to the level of Scripture.

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Scripture is in a category by itself as God -inspired material.

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Then going to the Scripture, we find these other four doctrines so, so clearly, that the salvation that God gives to us is received by grace alone, not grace plus human merit, not grace plus our actions, not grace plus our works, by faith alone, apart from the actions of man.

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And Scripture alone tells us that grace alone is how we're saved, by faith alone, in Christ alone, not

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Christ plus Mary and the saints, and that He's part

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Savior and then partly us or partly someone else. He saves us by Himself, alone, and then all of this is to the glory of God alone.

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So in these solas, they have these Latin phrases which are easy to remember, that was kind of the language, the theological language of the day back then, but these five doctrines are so crucial that tell us that based on Scripture alone, we can understand and know for sure that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, all to God's glory alone.

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And that's why no one else gets glory and salvation. We can't put ourselves on the back and say, well,

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God did His part and I did mine. It's a cooperative venture. No, God saves by His work alone, and that's what we celebrate in these doctrines.

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And under the authority of Scripture alone, or sola scriptura, which you mentioned in the beginning, the two that Rome most vociferously and formally and openly objects to,

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I'm sure you would agree, are sola fide, faith alone, and sola scriptura, Scripture alone, although they cannot really consistently and logically claim any of them with the alone attached.

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They really don't make a denial of the others, but it is sola fide and sola scriptura that they object to.

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If you could just comment about both of those and why Rome objects to them. Very good.

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In fact, that was what is referred to as the formal message of the

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Reformation, which was Scripture alone. And Rome said, no, no, no, no, it's the

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Church that has given us Scripture, therefore the

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Church stands above Scripture. Without the Church, you wouldn't even know what Scripture was.

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And the Reformers came back and said, actually, no, when the Church understood what

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Scripture was, they were specific in what they declared, and they said, we receive these books as inspired by God.

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God is the author, and it's actually the Word of God that creates the

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Church. God, through His Word, brings the Church forth, and therefore there is not this dual form of authority of the

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Word of God and the Church alongside, which really, in practical reality, means the

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Church tells you what the Word of God says, and the Church is the only interpreter, legitimately, of the

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Bible. Whereas what the Reformers were able to do is go to places like 2

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Timothy, that Paul is writing to Timothy and saying, I'm about to depart,

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I'm not going to set you up with Paul's, excuse me, Peter's email address or his phone number, call him if there's any issues.

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No, you know from childhood the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ.

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He didn't point him anywhere else, he pointed him to the Scripture, and the fact was, the

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Bible is so clear on how we are to be saved, that you don't need help to misinterpret it.

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You can go straight to Scripture, Timothy, you know it, and all Scripture is breathed out by God, and that's all you need.

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You'll be thoroughly equipped for every good work by the Scripture. He didn't say, as I'm about to leave, now, any other issues, just call

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Big Peter in Rome. He'll sort it out for you.

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I'm going, but I'm leaving you with Pete, my friend. No, he didn't. He just left him with the

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Scripture, and he did the exact same thing in the book of Acts with the Ephesian elders there.

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He's about to leave, there's a tearful occasion, they were not going to see him again, and he says, now

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I commend you, not to Peter, the first pope, so -called. No, now

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I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified, 2032.

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So he's consistent in both his writings and in his dealings with the elders there in Acts 20.

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In leaving, he's saying, I'm giving you Scripture, that's all you need for your life and for your ministry.

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Out of that comes faith alone, that by faith alone we're justified, declared right in the sight of God.

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And we could talk more about that, but I want to be kind of brief in how I answer your question.

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Sure. Well, both of those are very routinely distorted and caricatured by our

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Roman Catholic opponents when we are having debate or even conversation. They will try to charge us with believing that any

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Christian is just fine and dandy being alone in the woods with his Bible, without any teacher, without any pastor, without anybody to learn from.

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But as I've heard our friend James White say often, it's not so low scriptura where the

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Bible is the only thing the Christian uses to equip himself. It's just that the

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Scriptures are the only inerrant and infallible authority that we have, and those very

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Scriptures command that we have elders and teachers, am I right? Yeah, absolutely. In fact,

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I'm thinking of Ephesians 4 as you're talking of the ascended Christ giving gifts of people to the

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Church as blessings, which are not only teachers in our own day, but teachers through the ages who've poured their lives over the

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Scripture, and we're very foolish if we think it is just me and Jesus in the woods with my Bible.

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No, God has given us teachers to help us understand the Scriptures. God gives us the right to interpret the

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Scripture, but also He never gives us the right to misinterpret it, and therefore we've got to be very sure that we're taking

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God's Word in its proper context. There are rules for interpreting the Scripture that can be very well laid out, and that is starting with the fact that all

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Scripture is God -breathed, and if you've got any question about something in Scripture, it's very likely that another part of Scripture will answer that question for you very, very clearly, and start with what is clear before you go to things that are perhaps unclear.

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There are rules of interpretation, and so we don't have, even though the U .S.

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Constitution gives us the legal right to get things wrong theologically and not be incarcerated for believing heresy.

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Thank God for that freedom, by the way. Thank God, indeed. But God doesn't give us the right to get things wrong.

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We are to master the text, spend our time understanding, seeking God, and pouring our lives over the

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Scripture, but we do come to the Scripture with Scripture itself being the authority rather than some church authority that tells us, you must believe this because we are the infallible source of information.

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And, of course, we do believe, even though the Scriptures themselves command that we submit ourselves to elders and that we do not quickly appoint teachers over us that are not qualified, that we need teachers.

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At the same time, the Bible is sufficient where on those occasions that are not normative, there can be a person who finds a

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Bible or even a tract, reads it, and is saved purely with the Scripture alone outside of the aid of any teacher, preacher, or elder.

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I mean, that does happen, and historically has even happened in Asian countries and things like that. Yeah, and the point that the

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Reformers were making was not that this was a new thought in the 16th century, but they could trace this very idea and concept of the supreme authority of Scripture throughout the history of the

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Church. It was not a new idea that Reformers weren't starting a revolution.

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They were, that's why we call it the Reformation. Let's reform back to what the

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Word of God actually says, and since God has spoken in His Word, there should be signs of the

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Holy Spirit attending the people of God through the centuries with these concepts, and that is, in fact, what we do find in Church history.

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It's like a Christian bookstore in our own day. You go into one, and you can find some great books, and you can find some theological poison within three inches of each other.

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And so it was through the history of the Church. There's some great things said, and there's some very weird and wonderful and wacky things said, but throughout the history of the

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Church, there have been those that have affirmed what these Reformers were saying. Scripture alone is the standard.

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Let's go there, and then we've got God's mind on the matter. We can find evidence of that throughout Church history.

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And the other one that we mentioned that Rome most vociferously objects to is sola fides, faith alone, and they will often caricature that to mean that we are claiming that one needs only to recite a prayer or have a mental assent to the truth of Christ and the

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Gospel, and they will automatically, without question, be born again. Now, unfortunately, this is an issue that some of our professedly evangelical and Protestant—I don't even know if I want to say brothers, but some of them would be our brothers, not all of them, but some within the pale of professed evangelicalism—would actually function that way.

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They would tell people that if they go up for an altar call and recite a prayer, they will with certainty be born again.

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And regardless, if there is no fruit born out of that, regardless of whether or not that person perhaps even lives the rest of their lives as a cross -dressing atheistic serial killer, you know what

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I mean? I mean, I'm not even stretching the point, because there are actually many

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Christian—or should I say many professing Christians who will claim that. But that is not what sola fide means at all, am

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I right? No, absolutely right. And the fact is, if R .C.

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Sproul said it so well, we are not saved by the profession of faith, but by the possession of faith.

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It's not simply enough to just say certain words. In fact, Jesus made that clear in Matthew 7.

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Many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not do this in your name? And I'll say, I never knew you.

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So saying something is not enough, and in fact that's the point that James is making in chapter 2 of his epistle.

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You say you've got faith, show me. What we're saying is, when someone with true, genuine faith, which is

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God's gift to His elect people, when they have that faith, they also have a change of heart.

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They are regenerated. The biblical term is born again. And therefore, as Romans 6 makes clear, how can we who have died to sin live any longer in it?

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Shall we sin that grace may continue? Shall we just live our own life in disobedience to God?

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Not at all. We've got a new nature now. And with a new nature, we call upon the name of the

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Lord and are justified by faith alone. But we have this new nature that now wants what it didn't want before.

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It wants God, wants His will, wants to know the true God and embraces the true gospel, never rejects the true gospel.

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And so there are signs of a regenerated heart, just as there are signs of someone being truly alive physically.

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We would check for pulse, we would check for breath, and we are called to examine ourselves to see if there's anything in us that is alive spiritually.

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If there's no desire whatsoever to obey the things of God, you hear

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God's command and there's nothing in you that says, I want to obey. We're not to say, well, that person's outside the kingdom.

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We're not the judge in that sense. But it does cause us to say, I've got severe questions.

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God knows for sure. The Lord knows those who are His, and those who are His have fruit.

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What we're saying, though, in justification is we're not justified, declared right before God by the fruit that we see in people's lives, but by faith alone.

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But people with genuine faith will have fruit. But fruit is not the basis of their standing with God.

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Jesus and His work alone is the standing of the Christian. Yes, as John Calvin said in his antidote to the

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Council of Trent, he said, we are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.

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Yes. And you brought up James just a moment ago.

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This is Buzz, Reverend Buzz Taylor. James asks that question, what use is it, brethren, if a man says he has faith and has not worse?

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Can that faith or that kind of a faith save him? And most of the commentaries then talk about the following verses as how our faith works by supplying clothing and food and all that.

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But he gave a classic example following that of the fact that words don't do anything.

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It isn't the profession, it's the possession of faith.

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What use is it if you say to a man, be clothed, be filled, and you do not supply what he needs?

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What have your words done? They've done absolutely no good. And that's the kind of faith that's only spoken.

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It doesn't do any good, and it cannot save that person. Yeah. If I just say,

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Chris, I've just been involved in an auto accident, and I'm amazed that survived and can be here on your radio show, and you say, well, you know, can you show me the car that you were in?

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I send you a picture, and there's not a scratch on it. You think, well, he's saying he's been involved in an auto accident, but I can't see any evidence of it.

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And so it is. A lot of people can claim a lot of things, but if it is true, there will be evidence.

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And the evidence will be that car looks like it's been in a wreck rather than it looks like it's just come out of a car wash and looks squeaky clean and ready for the road, you know?

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Well, I am going to go to a listener question, and I am going to, what

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I'm going to do is I'm going to also email you the question so you have it in front of you. Okay.

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And this is from an anonymous listener, so when you get this email, don't say his name,

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John. Okay. Kind of taking a risk here. But this anonymous listener says, my church is

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Southern Baptist but has traces of the charismatic within. Please ask

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Pastor Samson how he suggests that some of these problems can be broached.

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I have a good friend who is a deacon that was surprised to discover that Kenneth Copeland actually teaches.

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Joyce Meyer and Beth Moore are readily accepted. I have started teaching on a small scale, but my

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Reformation views will inevitably be present. And that's, I don't know if our listener even knows, but you are actually a very ideal person to ask that question because our guest today,

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John Samson, came out of the Word of Faith Pentecostal movement, was not only a pastor in this movement, but was a talk show host for the

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Trinity Broadcasting Network. And not only did you leave that movement, you actually also became a cessationist, didn't you?

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Yeah, that's true. And, you know, you hear testimonies of people saying

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I was a drug dealer, and, you know, a heroin addict, and, you know, supplied heroin to others.

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And you think, well, what a story of redemption. Well, mine is, I was someone who asked people to call the number on the screen, and it didn't get much lower than that.

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Yeah, I was a host for TBN, and to my shame, you know, but at the same time, just so glad that God has pulled me out of that, but it wasn't an easy process.

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And what I would just say by way of some sort of answer is to point people to the

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Scripture. That's where our safety is, and that's what I found in just looking at the charismatic movement and seeing just the shoddy, shallow teaching that often emerges, the lack of interest in what the

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Bible says, to chase after words and prophecies that 95 % of the time mean absolutely nothing.

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It's so vital that we have a sure word from God, and when God speaks in the Bible, we're sure of it.

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But in this realm, it's kind of good for nothing, and it actually can be very, very dangerous rather than just a casual thing of interest.

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Well, I've emailed you the exact wording of the question from our listener, and we'll have you answer more fully and directly to what he was asking when we come back from the break.

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Okay, let's do that. And if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we do have a lot of listeners who have already emailed us, so we'll try to get to each and every one of you before the end of the hour.

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that's solid rock remodeling .com solid rock remodeling bringing new life to your home hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am

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.com we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back this is chris arnton if you just tuned us in our guest for the first hour is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona we are discussing the five solas standing together alone coming up for the second hour in just about a half hour from now a carlton winn will be joining us he's the assistant professor of systematic theology and apologetics at westminster theological seminary in glenside pennsylvania he's going to be talking about the preacher's mysterious ministry as described in ephesians chapter 3 1 through 13 and but if you'd like to join us on the air now with a question for john sampson on the five solas standing together alone our email address is chris arntzen at gmail .com

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chris arntzen at gmail .com and as i read to you with which you also have in front of me now in front of you i should say uh uh which you now have in front of you since i emailed it to you our anonymous listener says my church is southern baptist but has traces of charismatic within please ask pastor sampson how he suggests that some of these problems can be broached i have a good friend who is a deacon that was surprised to discover that kenneth copeland actually teaches i'm not even sure what that really means that statement uh joyce meyer and beth moore are readily accepted i have started teaching on a small scale but my reformation views will inevitably be present uh i guess what he means is that i have a good friend who is a deacon that was surprised to discover that kenneth kenneth copeland actually teaches in his church perhaps i don't know really what he meant by that but john if you could continue with a response to that yeah i would probably want to ask more questions as to what authority he has in teaching um he says he started teaching on a small scale i i would just if it was myself be very upfront with those that have given me authority to teach and say this is where i'm coming from i'm going to be basing what i'm saying on the bible um and just let it fly as you are allowed to do that and um certainly this is very troubling that uh in certain areas of the church that they're being exposed perhaps it what what the gentleman i don't i'm assuming it's a gentleman is saying is that he's surprised a deacon was surprised to discover what kenneth copeland actually teaches maybe that's what it um but uh but these people are not uh blessings to the body of christ they're bringing uh heretical content comes content uh very often um in almost every sermon there's something that is just so off the wall uh joy smile less so but uh certainly she has not retracted a lot of the things she's said in the past uh she seems to be more of a practical teacher in that sense um but at the same time i would say share your concerns and um if if you are then given the ability to to teach what you see in scripture let it fly teach what you what you know from the word of god and you'll be of help to people but um be upfront always be upfront with uh the leaders and the elders and say wait in in terms of where you're coming from and i think it will uh just cause peace in that sense even though what is taking place is is not in any way a blessing at least you'll not be a source of uh confusion you'll be a source of truth in the middle of all of that but um seek to work with the leadership rather than against them and if you find that they want to allow these things to take place then you'll have your own questions to answer as to whether you stay within that particular local church but if it hasn't come to that and they allow you to teach then uh then teach well thank you anonymous uh keep uh listening to iron sharpens iron radio and keep on spreading the word about the program uh to all you uh meet and know hey chris can i just say i've in the past i've read amazing quotes from this guy anonymous so it's just with this with this person i mean it's amazing anonymous is actually listening to your show we have uh a friend of mine charlie liebert who on occasion is a co -host and guest on this program he is the founder of six day creation .com

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and that's six spelled out in a word not the s -i -x day creation .com and charlie liebert says as a reformer i'm sorry as a reformed believer i know of calvin luther etc but we attach no name to this doctrine summary in reference to the five solos who and when did this originate um it's interesting in fact i've learned something in writing this this book and that was three of the solos were immediately apparent it would seem um but in terms of the five being classed together it's fairly new and i i just thought that uh it had been known for centuries that they were the five solos because that's all i've heard of in the last uh 20 years or so but uh no it's actually in the last century that all five were put together but there's certainly traces of it all through the reformation it's just no one really put all five together in one little package but they would talk about scripture alone grace alone faith alone certainly at other times they would talk about the glory of god alone uh there's great evidence for it but it seems and if you if you actually do uh some searching on this only in the last uh 67 years that the five solos have been classed as the five solos together so uh that that was an interesting discovery for me even though it's very very clear all of these doctrines came out of the reformation oh so these were not uh watch words that luther actually penned himself and systematized into that acronym not in terms of all five together it would seem oh well it's actually not an acronym where did it turn up how did it turn up do you have information on that then i mean you you said it was rather recently uh can you pinpoint when it basically uh um you know is it three in the afternoon one tuesday i mean was there a particular conference or something or a book a writing or something that that initiated this the five together what i remember from my studies is it um there was i'd have to go back and find the original person but it was it's around 1950 1960 when uh the the full five solar expressions seemed to emerge and it's hard to pinpoint down exactly when that occurred and who was the originator of it because it was these five doctrines were well known it just wasn't packaged together if that makes sense okay uh thank you charlie and we look forward to you returning as a co -host or guest on iron sharpens iron in the near future we have joe from slovenia i thank you for having brother john sampson on your show i use his insights at reformation theology often in ministering the gospel wow that's nice to hear that's great i've been very puzzled lately by many across evangelicalism claiming to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the beginning of the protestant reformation this year who don't adhere to soloscriptura and consequently none of the other four solos with any level of comprehensive consistency what do you attribute uh to this historical and theological disconnect uh how how is it that vast swaths of evangelicalism can claim to be heirs of the reformation while abandoning and denying its most basic doctrines what is the best way to address those of our brothers who commit this error thank you very much for sharpening our focus on the solos today you know i would also add in my own question of those who are thoroughly reformed who declare with with great passion their belief in the five solos but then quite disappointingly uh will be ecumenical in in their relationships with roman catholics and will speak and quote uh they will speak adoringly and quote roman catholics very favorably with frequently frequency in their their sermons and their lectures and it really confusing the issue and i'm wondering if how big of a deal they really think these five solos are or the reformation uh at all you know i mean if you could comment on that gosh where'd you start i it stirs my soul because the the question is so true we we observe in the quote -unquote evangelical world just great uh withdrawal from the reformation solos a lot of it because of ignorance uh there there may be a statement of faith but let's even talk about the word of god that most churches would say we believe the bible is the word of god and they will put that on a website and um i remember going to a very large if not the largest church in the area which will be nameless just to protect the guilty and i went there on a saturday night uh because i had a free night and they had a saturday event a normal meeting and i was surprised that i was seemingly the only person going in there with the bible in my hand and i thought well i need to be open because some people their bible is on their phone i need to adjust to that but i was the only one walking in there and there were thousands walking in but by the way i gotta tell you that very quickly i was i was at a church pastored by a very dear friend of mine and um after the service his wife said uh i couldn't believe chris arnson he was being so rude he was just texting the entire time you were preaching on his cell phone and she said he told me he was going to be using the bible app on his phone honey he had the bible in front of him but anyway because because i don't this is this is a church that only had the king james bible in their pews and i only had an nasb uh with me so i had to follow with what they were there's one thing that rattles me is when the preacher is reading from a different translation that i have in my hand but anyway right right but go ahead i'm sorry just to finish the story that the guy the preacher came out and well i wouldn't call him a preacher he came out not to a pulpit but to a little stand and he sat on a chair and he said i just want to share with you and he had this multi uh screen system in the sanctuary area just and played a 10 minute video that was just top notch just nbc would have been proud of it bbc would have been proud of it in terms of production quality and he he was expressing in this topical message in in in visual form some some some great stuff and then 15 minutes in he said and and jesus said something about this and immediately my ears pricked up i thought oh great we're going to go to the bible now and he he looked at his watch chris and he said well just for the sake of time let me summarize what jesus said and he did and we never heard what jesus said and i thought this this church has all the bells and whistles imaginable but on paper and on the website it says we believe the bible but in practical terms they don't believe the bible is the word of god certainly that it's sufficient for ministry we didn't even hear the bible in the entire service not one verse and i went to a wedding there and the same thing happened assistant and different guy said let me just summarize what jesus said about marriage he didn't quote jesus he summarized jesus and so take that just on the level of scripture all of this regarding faith alone grace alone christ alone in many places with lost sight of there's little there's little knowledge there's great ignorance of these doctrines and that's what propelled me to to say let's let's get something that can spread that that pastors can say here's something i can give to people uh and christians who are wanting to to influence others let's get it into the hands of people whereby they in in 30 minutes they can be schooled in these things because i'm finding this has been lost side off people don't understand that it's not just merely the necessity of scripture yes we need it but it's sufficient for our life for our ministry it's not just the necessity of faith but the sufficiency of faith not just merely the necessity of grace but the sufficiency of grace the necessity of christ no the sufficiency of christ and and people have lost sight of that because it's not being taught we're teaching other things in our churches and that's why we have a generation that have lost sight of why they are protestant that they don't know why they're protesting they have a preference for their church over the roman catholic church with its ornate ceremonies and it's people that wear strange hats and they say i don't like that but they don't know why they're protesting but the reformers did and we have something to protest there's a false gospel and there's a true one and the reformers got the gospel right and we're standing with them with these five souls saying this is how we're justified in the sight of god and there's no other way this is the only way anyone has ever brought into right standing with god so there's a passion in me to say let's get this truth out there because it's being lost in this generation even in the 500th anniversary of the reformation and in about a minute's time can you tell us uh or we have a listener uh pastor sterling vander worker of shepherd's fellowship in uh greensboro north carolina uh shepherd fellowship i should say a singular i believe uh he uh says from your research for the upcoming book which of the reformers do you think is the most influential on the proper formation of the five solos and why hmm well i could i would answer by saying i i'm not sure but there is just one that i'd point to i it's what insights from all of them i think luther really uh faith alone and scripture alone but calvin added added so much uh depth to that as well it's not just one it's it's the reformers that we refer to rather than uh oryx vingly or or luther or calvin or some of them or some of the others it's it's a collective venture wouldn't you say though that luther was the most inconsistent because he held his solo fide and yet simultaneously believed in baptismal regeneration which seems to be oxymoronic yeah yeah there there seems to be an inconsistency there for sure okay well i uh want to thank everybody who listened today uh we have run out of time unfortunately so anybody else who has sent in a question god willing uh pastor john sampson is going to be back on to continue the same subject on july 5th so mark your calendars for july 5th and you can ask those questions when we have him on for a full two -hour program you can get this book through solid -ground -books .com

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solid -ground -books .com and the king's church in peoria arizona can be reached at kingschurchaz .com

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kingschurchaz .com any other uh contact information you care to share there's my personal blog site called effectualgrace .com

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and there's a link there if they want to get hold of the book it's available now for in uh pre -order uh but it should be uh shipping right at the end of the month here just in the next 10 days or so okay and uh also uh don't forget cvbbs .com

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cvbbs .com for all of our guest books on iron sharpens iron radio thank you so much john we look forward to your return to the program on july 5th it's been great i always enjoy being with you chris and thank you buzz all righty well god bless and coming up uh we have uh after our station break we have carlton wynn assistant professor of systematic theology and apologetics at westminster theological seminary he is going to be joining us to discuss the preacher's mysterious ministry from ephesians chapter 3 verses 1 through 13 which is his topic at the banner of truth 2017 u .s

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ministers conference coming up in just about a week or so and yeah in fact it's next week may 30th through june 1st in elizabeth town college in elizabeth town pennsylvania but he'll be coming up soon so if you'd like to ask a question of carlton wynn our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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that's chrisarnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages god willing one sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers i know you all use batteries every day so i'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use batterydepot .com

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that's batterydepot .com linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

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that's linbrookbaptist .org every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org

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that's liyfc .org thriving financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization we help christians be wise with money and live generously every day and for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere institute a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics contact me mike gallagher financial consultant at 717 -254 -6433 again 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the thriving difference lending faith finances and generosity that's the thriving story survive we were made to thrive tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship and how about the preaching perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island well there's good news wading river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc .us

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that's nasbible .com paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lucans pastor of providence baptist church we are a reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofolk massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near norfolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

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that's providence baptist church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor and make sure you mark your calendars for june 28th that's wednesday june 28th 4 to 6 p .m

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when bill shishko the man you just heard the host of a visit to the pastor's study will be my guest on iron sharpens iron radio and i look forward to hearing from you and your questions for pastor bill on wednesday june 28th 4 to 6 p .m

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and before i introduce our guest for the second hour carlton wynn and the topic he'll be discussing i want to remind you about some special events coming up next week from tuesday may 30th through thursday june the first banner of truth is having their 2017 u .s

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ministers conference on the theme the living and enduring word and that is going to be held at the elizabethtown college in elizabethtown pennsylvania and the speakers include our guest today for the second hour carlton wynn and also joel beeky and jeff thomas and mark johnston and jonathan master who have all been on iron sharpens iron radio before and william vanderward who has not yet been on the program but i look forward to trying to get him on the program especially to discuss his book on adam but this is going to be i'm sure a phenomenal conference and if you are a pastor or a man in ministry leadership or if perhaps your pastor can bring you along with him that will be next week tuesday may 30th through thursday june 1st at the elizabethtown college in elizabethtown pennsylvania the banner of truth u .s

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ministers conference go to banner of truth .org banner of truth .org click on events and click on u .s

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ministers conference and then following that we have sermon audios foundation conference in new york city on june 22nd and june 23rd on 350 west 26th street in the chelsea section of manhattan and we have speakers that will include dr stephen j lawson dr joel beeky again phil johnson the executive director of john macarthur's ministry grace to you todd freel of wretched tv and wretched radio and a number of other speakers and this is in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation for more details go to the foundations conference .com

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the foundations conference .com and then following that in august we have fellowship conference new england this is going to be held in reverend buzz taylor's old stomping grounds in portland maine at the deering center community church in portland and the theme is there is no theme because every man there is just going to be speaking on a subject that the lord has burdened his heart to preach on all men are solidly uh calvinistic and believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace and they include pastor don curran of don curran ministries and heart cry missionary society which is the organization founded by paul washer my dear friend pastor mack tomlinson of providence chapel in denton texas pastor jesse barrington of grace life church in dallas texas and pastor nate pickowitz of harvest bible church in gilmantown ironworks new hampshire in fact we are going to have pastor pickowitz on this program on tuesday the 27th of june to discuss his book reviving new england but for more details on registering for this conference which is going to be held august 3rd through the 5th the email address to go to is fellowshipconferencenewengland .com

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fellowshipconferencenewengland .com following that uh we have coming up in october i'm sorry in november november 17th through the 18th the alliance of confessing evangelicals is having their quaker town conference on reform theology on the theme for still our ancient foe obviously a line from luther's hymn a mighty fortress these speakers are going to be ian hamilton kent hughes and peter jones there will be workshop uh workshops run by dennis cahill peter jones and scott oliphant for more details on this conference go to alliancenet .org

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alliancenet .org and click on events and then look for for still our ancient foe in quaker town pennsylvania and then last but not least uh the g3 conference has been scheduled for january 18th through the 20th of 2018 and speakers include paul washer stephen j lawson vody baucom hb charles jr tim challis josh byas dr james r white of alpha and omega ministries tom askel of founders ministries and many more and if you'd like to register for that conference while the discount still applies go to g3conference .com

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g3conference .com and i hope to see you there myself because i am going to be there god willing in fact i'm going to be at the majority of these events so i hope you look for me uh last but not least uh i have to remind you that iron sharpens iron radio is in urgent need of your donations and advertising if you have a burden upon your heart to keep this program on the air go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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and click on support there will be an address given to you where you can mail checks of any amount made out to iron sharpens iron radio if you want to advertise send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line if you want to advertise your business corporation your professional practice like a law firm or medical practice perhaps you're having a special event perhaps you're a pastor or a leader in a parachurch organization as long as whatever you want to advertise is compatible with the theological makeup of iron sharpens iron radio we would look forward to speaking to you about advertising and send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com well now finally we are going to be entering into our second hour of discussion on iron sharpens iron radio this time we have as i said earlier carlton wynn assistant professor of systematic theology and apologetics at westminster theological seminary in glenside pennsylvania he's an ordained teaching elder in the presbyterian church in america also known as the pca he's a contributor to zeal for godliness devotional meditations on calvin's institutes which was co -edited with derrick thomas and he's going to be discussing today the preacher's mysterious ministry taken from ephesians chapter 3 1 through 13 which is his topic of discussion at the banner of truth ministers conference next week and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you iron sharpens iron for the very first time carlton wynn thank you so much it's a privilege to be here and in studio with me is my co -host the reverend buzz taylor hello good to have you on hello and if you could uh carlton before we go into the topic at hand uh i would like to have a summary of your own uh conversion or your own being drawn to salvation in christ the religion of your upbringing if any and what providential circumstances the lord used to bring you to himself well thank you i appreciate that that opening question um i'll try not to make it too long i was born in texas to a christian home and by god's grace grew up in the presbyterian church the mainline church was baptized there over time my father grew as a participant and uh and uh eager uh buyer of books from ligonier ministries rc sprawl was very formative for him he went to some of the early early ligonier conferences uh i think where you play golf all day and one of those kind of conferences and come home in the evening and hear dr sprawl teach and i just remember as a young boy and coming home with a bunch of books and i would start to read those books at a pretty young age and just sit and fire questions at him year after year and that was hugely formative for me as well as for my father and and in the lord's grace came to embrace not only christ at a young age but began to be more familiar with reformed theological distinctives as i grew into a high schooler and that continued through my college years and the lord has been faithful and gracious despite my sin and in his mercy he's led me here to westminster where i'm very happily serving on the faculty and tell our listeners uh it may seem like a silly question because most of our listeners are probably reformed but they're for those of our listeners who are not who have never heard of westminster theological seminary if you could give us a summary about that institution yes westminster theological seminary is located in glenside pennsylvania it was started in 1929 as the founder of the institution jay grass and machen did battle with encroaching liberal theological views that were becoming more evident to him at princeton theological seminary so the heritage of westminster lies in old princeton as it was founded in 1812 as the denominational seminary of at that time the presbyterian church of the united states of america and as nation realized that the theological profile of that institution was changing in the early 1920s he did all that he could to try to stem that tide but by 1929 he was convinced that a new seminary had to be founded and he took a few of the professors there and started westminster theological seminary so if you've you've heard of the names john murray from scotland cornelius van till from the netherlands and others they were the founding faculty members of westminster seminary lord has been gracious to preserve the institution we're we're not much to look at uh we have about four four buildings on campus but we um we we draw students from all over the world uh even uh mainland china hong kong south korea south america um and we we are so thankful to be training these young men and women for leadership and for bible teaching and especially young men for gospel ministry yes and i have had the privilege of interviewing the president there peter lilbeck on his biography of george washington and i've interviewed dr carl truman and a number of the other faculty members there and in fact the owner of the building that iron sharpens iron radio calls its home the old manse as it's been nicknamed because it's a 19th century presbyterian parsonage uh the man who owns this building al stever very dear friend of mine and landlord he is a graduate of westminster theological seminary and not long ago went to a 50th anniversary graduation anniversary of westminster wonderful wonderful we should uh we should send you a westminster banner that you can hang outside of your your man well uh if if uh if al stever would like to hang that outside that'd be great i'll hang it up on my wall if he doesn't want to i'm sorry send two or three of those like one of those and uh yes that's a fine institution and uh we thank god for westminster theological seminary and uh what i'd like to do is i'm going to read uh ephesians chapter 3 1 through 13 to kind of set the stage of what we're talking about today the apostle paul writes to the church of ephesus for this reason i pull the prisoner of christ jesus for the sake of you gentiles if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of god's grace which was given to me for you that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery as i wrote before in brief by referring to this when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of christ which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the spirit to be specific that the gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body and fellow partakers of the promise in christ jesus through the gospel of which i made and which i was made a minister according to the gift of god's grace which was given to me according to the working of his power to me the very least of all saints this grace was given to preach to the gentiles the unfathomable riches of christ and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in god who created all things so that the manifold wisdom of god might know might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities and the heavenly places this was in accordance with the eternal purpose which he carried out in christ jesus our lord in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in him therefore i ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf for they are your glory and we thank god for his word and if you could carlton uh let our listeners know what is this great mystery of which not only paul mentions but you mentioned in your own topic of discussion for today and at the banner of truth conference yes thank you so much well the first great challenge of articulating what the mystery is is how in the world do we get our arms around everything that you just read this passage that competes with with chapter one of ephesians for that one long sentence in the original language that paul was just exploding with theological content here identifying that mystery it lies at the at the core of what i hope to discuss with the men and attendees of the conference for the banner of truth ministers conference the mystery of christ for paul is the gospel to flesh that out a little bit the mystery of christ is the death and resurrection of christ as the fulfillment of god's eternal plan of redemption it was forged by the triune god in heaven that was anticipated throughout the course of the old testament but has been realized in time through the historical arrival life death and resurrection of christ in history and paul's entire apostolic calling is calling as a minister of the word of god his specific calling to minister the gospel to the gentiles is framed it is defined it is conditioned by this historical fact that god's eternal plan of salvation has come to pass climatically in the coming of christ and in this section of scripture he's detailing not only the fact of the mystery of christ revealed but in the later portion of the text that you read i believe that he is describing how that ministry how that mystery excuse me defines his preaching ministry now would you say that as a reformed christian that a lot of time when a lot of the times when arminians or non -reformed christians are reading the scriptures and they see references to christ's love for all and death for all and the desire of christ that all be saved and there there are universal words used in the scriptures that when they assume that this means every man woman and child that has ever lived and died and who will ever live in the future they are not really taking in account what paul is saying here because wasn't this addition of the gentiles where the gentiles were now hearing the gospel and being welcomed into the faith even though they of course were there were gentiles being saved in the old covenant but it was a trickle where in the new covenant it was like a dam burst open and you have gentiles and masses coming to faith in christ isn't this really when you read the bible in the through the lenses of what paul is saying here that is why the the universal language is being used it's that that the church is not an exclusively jewish club and that it's everyone and all meaning those from out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation isn't that what people are missing i think that's very well well said um you know no sooner do we say that the mystery of christ revealed from verse four is the gospel then we have to reckon with verse six his point as you mentioned about the gentiles coming in and this this fact that you're articulating that the gospel is for the world is really rooted in the first introduction paul gives us to the mystery in the book of ephesians which which we find in chapter one uh so those who are listening and perhaps reading along might want to turn to ephesians chapter one where paul again in an explosion of praise is talking about this mystery that has come to pass in christ this revelation of god's eternal plan to save a people from every tribe and tongue and nation around the world he says in verse eight that god lavished upon us in all wisdom and insight his grace and verse nine says he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his purpose which he set forth in christ as a plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in him things in heaven and things on earth now verse 10 is talking about a cosmic unifying act of god that brings all things into christ of course of course we know that christ in his resurrection and ascension has been exalted as the lord of all recall that in matthew 28 he says all authority in heaven on earth has been given to me but what is ephesians saying that that god will unite all things in him things in heaven and things on earth well this would take some time to develop but i do believe that in verse 10 he has in view christ's cosmic lordship over all but in verse 10 i believe he's speaking about people people from every tribe tongue and nation some of whom have gone to glory in heaven sometimes called the church triumphant and many still on the earth believers making their pilgrimage by faith believers who belong as the theologians sometimes put it to the church militant and there's coming a day when christ will offer up as a single sacrifice of praise all of those and the father has given to him he puts it in john's gospel repeatedly john penn all of the flock of god which have been have been uh destined to be purchased by his blood so absolutely we want to affirm as as reformed believers that the gospel is for all that it should be proclaimed and preached to every man and woman and boy and girl uh and that it is not our our job to find out who the lord has foreknown from before the foundations of the world but to allow the word of god to do its work uh sovereignly by the spirit to draw those for whom christ died into fellowship with him and we praise the lord that that number will be greater than the sands on the seashore amen and we rejoice in that but at the same time we want to say that what paul's saying in ephesians 3 is that the gentiles are caught up into this eternal plan and paul is marveling that it's bursting the bounds beyond israel and that it's his great privilege to bring this gospel to non -jews around the world yeah and when when the when the gentile christian in the 21st century reads many parts of scripture he is not jolted out of his chair by reading some of these things because he has come to the the assumption well christianity is really predominantly a gentile or a religion with gentile adherence there's nothing like fascinating or amazing to many who read these things but they forget that when these things were written this was truly an amazing thing in fact it was so amazing that the apostle peter had a hard time even embracing that it was true that that the uh that the gospel could not be confined in the boundaries of the jewish people that's right that's right and i think that one of the ways today's christian can begin to appreciate that the graciousness of the gospel that's going to all the nations is to recognize that the person and work of christ is so deeply rooted in the revelation of the old testament the more you begin to read the new testament really against the backdrop of the old testament you realize how marvelous it is now i've been in the coming of christ and then the pouring out of the spirit and then the carrying of the gospel to the nations which is really chronicled for us in the book of acts is a marvelous act of god's grace he begins with with a first gospel promise right after the fall in genesis 3 15 and and then by the time we get to genesis 12 he selected abraham as the father of a multitude and yet that multitude itself brings the christ that is the the lord of all and the one to whom all of the nations will bow one way or another this is this is god's way of acting beginning small but taking his purposes over time according to his design to the ends of the earth so i think you're absolutely right if we're not reading our bibles not reading the new testament against the backdrop for the old we're going to miss that but it but it but connecting the new to the old i think magnifies the goodness and mercy of god to the world i'm going to email you a listener question and i will also read it on the air before we go to the break our final break of the day and then you could answer it when we return from the break this is from tyler in mastic beach long island new york and his question is why do we as reformed christians consider arminians our brethren when clearly the reformers would have no problem as declaring them as heretics how can we claim to be reformed but just have the same convictions as the reformers when the arminians get the gospel wrong altogether interesting assumptions there obviously uh it depends on what reformers you're talking about because the arminians didn't exist in the 16th century during the reformation the initial stage i should say but uh we'll have you answer that when we return and i'm going to email you this question so you have it right in front of you right now and if anybody else would like to join us now is the time to email your questions because we're running out of time chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com is our email address don't go away we'll be right back with carlton wynn and more of our discussion hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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hcbible .org call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689 harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives and the reverend buzz taylor and i had a wonderful time at harvey cedars just recently where we saw and heard one of carlton winn's colleagues at westminster theological seminary dr carl truman speak among others and we urge you to consider harvey cedars bible conference center if your church or group wants to have an ideal location for a conference especially during the warmer weather when they can enjoy the uh the ocean there right nearby on site there on long beach island in new jersey that's uh the website is hcbible .com

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hcbible .org well welcome back we are in our final half hour of today's uh interview with carlton winn assistant professor of systematic theology and apologetics at westminster theological seminary in glenside pennsylvania we are talking about the preacher's mysterious ministry from ephesians 3 1 through 13 which is also carlton's uh topic of of speaking at the banner of truth 2017 u .s

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ministers conference next week specifically that is may 30th through june the first and that's at elizabethtown college and elizabethtown pennsylvania and for more details on that conference go to banner of truth .org

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banner of truth .org click on events and click on u .s ministers conference but uh and also i that you do a world -renowned uh hilarious dance known as the carlton dance is that that's the wrong carlton right i'm sorry that might be the wrong carlton or is it or that's right is it that's a good question uh before the break i read you a question from tyler in mastic beach long island new york who said or asked why do we as reformed christians consider arminians our brethren when clearly the reformers would have no problem declaring them as heretics how can we claim to be reformed but have the same convictions as the reformers when the arminians get the gospel wrong all together yes i appreciate this question from tyler um i think that it in my opinion might be overreaching a bit you emphasize the final word all together the arminians get the gospel wrong all together i think i would want to pull back on that description just a bit that's right i enter into a critique here and i will but um just looking here at romans chapter 10 verse 12 there's no distinction between jew and greek for the same lord is lord of all bestowing his riches on all who call on him for everyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved now that is a verse that both calvinists and arminians can agree on that everyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved the definition of a christian therefore those whom we should consider our brethren are those who are united to christ by faith and i have no problem affirming my arminian brethren those who call upon the lord jesus for salvation receiving and resting in him by faith as he is offered in the gospel now there is a division no sooner do i affirm that common agreement there is a division of course between an arminian understanding not necessarily of the necessity of faith but of the context and the conditions for faith what must or must not be present for someone to call upon christ if it's the calling that makes them a christian calling on christ receiving christ by faith uh the debate is slightly different what is the what is the condition in which someone can call upon the lord and be saved the arminian will hold that either we are not as fallen as the calvinists see scripture declaring us to be not in fact utterly dead in our sins and transgressions such that we cannot will anything good apart from god's supernatural intervention or perhaps god grants a prevenient universal grace that alleviates the depths of our depravity to make it possible for someone to exercise their will toward christ when the offer of the gospel is made on the other hand the calvinist of course would want to that god must in an act of unilateral work of grace regenerate our hearts bring us to life in christ so that we might as a reflex of that supernatural work upon us lay hold on christ in faith actively so so it's not a debate first and foremost over who is a christian might be but what is the context and condition for faith and the second thing i would say um is uh to borrow a line from from i believe j .i

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packer i may be paraphrasing here in his wonderful little book evangelism and the sovereignty of god that though we may debate these things and though our answers to these things do in my opinion um contribute or detract from the glory of god in our salvation uh every christian is a calvinist at prayer amen on his knees i think it was the way he said it yes on his knees so you know when and we can all relate to this can't we when we're praying for family members to come to know the lord we're praying for our friends or or or anyone um we're asking the lord to do something so we're not praying to the person to say if they would only be smart enough or recognize a good offer when it comes their way but we're pleading with the lord to do something it seems to me that a norminian who's consistent um wouldn't necessarily offer that prayer and yet and yet i rejoice that that brothers in the lord can join together and pray for the salvation of the lost knowing ultimately in our heart of hearts that god must do the work to bring someone to say again to go back to our earlier conversation does not mean at all that the gospel should not be preached to every man woman boy and girl it is not our job to change the heart it is our job to be faithful to the great commission and proclaim the sufficiency of christ saving work for every human being and then allow the holy spirit to work that internal work to bring someone to faith in christ so i appreciate the question but we need to be we need to be careful uh patient in our definition of the gospel and the precise uh location of the debate between arminians and calvinists yes even charles spurgeon had a very similar quote to the one that uh that j .i

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packer would uh be known for over a century later um and uh the like for instance charles spurgeon and george whitfield as much as they had very serious problems with arminianism in fact charles spurgeon said things about the arminian gospel that i don't even feel comfortable quoting uh because they're so strongly opposed to arminianism uh equating the the god of universal atonement as one who would be similar to the god of the pagans who would dare punish someone in hell for sins that he allegedly already paid for but um at the same time uh spurgeon and whitfield uh had a great love and uh commonality with arminians and considered many arminians their brothers and george whitfield even requested that john wesley preach at his funeral which he eventually did even though they were involved in very heated debates with each other over these things if i could just uh plug a publication edited by one of my colleagues a new old testament professor johnny gibson he has edited a volume that came out a couple of years ago called uh from heaven he came and sought her it's a collection of essays on the atonement and uh so -called limited atonement perspective just a wonderful uh collection of treatments biblically historically theologically and i think your comment about spurgeon uh though you may have disagreed with certain elements of it i do think it's helpful to remind people that the debate is as well as dealing with the issue of faith really does go back to what did christ accomplish on the cross right and he accomplished merely a potential salvation or did he actually accomplish all that was necessary uh for our uh entry into glory and behind that if i could just push it a little bit further um is is the mind of god unified as father son and holy spirit do the persons of the triune godhead in their distinct but inseparable working to achieve the salvation of sinners are they unified in in purpose and intent seems to me that some of our arminian brothers would find a kind of disjunction between the intention of christ and the accomplishment of redemption at the cross and the work of the holy spirit in applying that redemption only to those who believe instead i think it's a consistently biblical position to say that whom the father has known the son has died for and the spirit has worked faith that they might receive the redemption that christ has won once for all 2 000 years ago would you say that uh although the arminian gospel is flawed and plagued with inconsistency it still contains the the essence of the gospel that christ's finished work on calvary is the only thing where we can find our hope for eternal life and we must have faith and believe in that finished work of christ and his resurrection is would you say that that would be since that is claimed by arminian that would uh far outweigh and overshadow the flaws and inconsistencies they attach to it i think so i think so now if if one were to push me really really really hard okay and here i'm getting into kind of a narrow a narrow uh description here um let me just use an analogy um would i go to uh my wife's grandmother and ask her to articulate a detailed confessional description of the trinity um no i don't think i would do i believe that she believes the trinity i would say i would say yes um now just to use that as an analogy i would want to affirm everything that you said about what what your typical on the street evangelical arminian believes about the sufficiency of christ the necessity of faith the atoning blood of jesus to cover our sins and so on um and yet there comes a point i think when when there are maybe even in the academic world uh those who know the scriptures uh very well who are going to see clearly um the declarations of uh the glory of god and redemption and they're going to try with all their might to resist those claims even in such a way that they begin to distort a doctrine of god and i'm thinking here and maybe this doesn't even apply honestly but i'm thinking here of those in the evangelical world who for example have trended in a more open theist direction and by that i mean uh those who would want to say well if god has foreknown what i'm going to do in terms of choosing for christ then you know in some sense it's actually already settled right and my will to choose or not choose for christ is actually preempted by the fact that god is omniscient right i may feel as if i'm making an autonomous choice but but god's omniscience tells me that i'm actually not free no matter what i do right and so some have taken the additional step of saying well god may know everything but the future is not one of those things right and when you know when we get into those kinds of more consistent armenian and even beyond armenian position and then i think we need to have a more serious conversation but with that qualifier of course i would agree with everything you said earlier yes uh in fact many of the open theists call themselves consistent armenians yes and i actually uh just between you and me agree that that's a more consistent position than the armenian position is despite all the love i have for my armenian friends right right well i remember something that actually caused me to chuckle i couldn't help it but years ago at the philadelphia conference on reform theology when the late dr james montgomery boyce was still with us uh what a precious gift to the body of christ he was and still is uh he turned as white as a ghost uh sitting behind john gerstner who was speaking because john gerstner declared and i'm paraphrasing because i don't have a transcript in front of me but he said you cannot be an armenian christian actually believe what you say you believe and be saved and that is an amazing impression of john gerstner that is funny and uh barely uh discernible from rc sproles accent actually these days it's true uh but uh in fact you when you mentioned your i believe you said your wife's grandmother uh my grandmother uh haunted her episcopal minister for decades uh before she went home to glory uh with questions about the trinity she was insisting on an understandable definition that her minister could not provide and he was getting increasingly frustrated i can even remember him raising his voice a couple of times over hearing their conversations look it's a mystery all righty i told you this a million times but uh yeah i want you to summarize oh wait before i have you summarize your topic i do want to go to a listener at least one more listener we may have time for one or two more but we'll see arnie in perry county pennsylvania wants to know how do you respond to the charge of many dispensationalists and those in the messianic movement that we who are reformed believe in replacement theology which they would categorize as a great heresy and also anti -semitic wow okay uh that's a very uh helpful question it actually does uh involve what we have been discussing as far as ephesians as concerns ephesians 3 1 through 13 absolutely um i have heard that term replacement theology as a kind of um oh i don't mean to be uh disparaging myself but a disparaging description of classic reformed covenant theology um the very brief answer that i would give is that uh covenant theology and that is nothing less than and the notion that the one gospel of jesus christ is being unfolded organically from genesis 3 to the end of revelation that god has one plan for one people again beginning with israel certainly but blossoming in the new covenant in christ as the gospel goes to every tribe and tongue and nation um that way of understanding the scriptures doesn't view the church or the new covenant in christ as replacing the old covenant so much as it does view the coming of christ as the fulfillment amen of the old testament and it seems to me as a we could go to a number of texts where where where christ himself is identifying uh the old testament as serving him luke 24 would be the clearest the road to the mass when jesus unfolds the law and the prophets and the psalms declaring to these precious disciples on the road all the things in the scriptures concerning himself we can turn to the epistles of peter when he's talking about nature of the church echoing the fact that the church is uh that is the kingdom of priests unto god that they are a holy nation a chosen race a royal priesthood he's echoing uh the declaration of god from exodus yes first peter 2 9 yes exactly um that we are the people of god together with the believers of the old testament and the way that i think is the most helpful to is to ask this question and i must say i'm borrowing here from from edmund clowney who was one of the presidents of westminster seminary to ask this question um what what blessing was promised to israel that was not fulfilled in christ what blessing did god promise to abraham and to israel that was not fulfilled in christ well i think we have to say and i think just about every dispensationist would have to say well well every blessing was was fulfilled in christ every blessing of the old covenant was found its goal and in christ and then the second question becomes how many of those blessings fulfilled in christ does the person who believes in christ receive and again it seems to me the answer must be well every blessing every blessing in the heavenly places is ours in christ when we read the gospel and the scriptures through the lens of christ as the center of all of god's saving revelation he is both the goal of the revelation and promises made to israel and he is the source of every blessing that all who call upon him receive whether they call upon him as a jew or as a gentile so i wouldn't want to say that the covenant or or the gospel or the church replaces anything in the old it is the full flowering of the one plan of god uh from of all yeah and if we uh who are gentile believers are grafted into uh the uh the olive tree uh that how could that be anything else but the church because we're certainly not grafted into the nation of israel and the dispensationalists don't even believe that we are grafted into the nation of israel so wouldn't that be a logical assumption that the olive tree is the uh the church absolutely one one olive tree one covenant community and if i could add just one quick additional line of reasoning that i have found fascinating just in the last couple of days um think about the controversy over circumcision in uh in the epistle to the galatians uh and elsewhere you had judy heisers you had you had those who were saying that these gentile christians had to become uh had to take on uh the the traditional mark of circumcision which of course was the covenant sign for israel now now imagine that uh that that debate was being had by by by those who held to the dispensationalist position seems to me that that debate never would have arisen had the dispensationalist position prevailed in other words paul could easily say well i'm not going to circumcise them because after all they belong to the church and not to israel but that's not what paul says paul says that they are the true israel and yet he's not going to circumcise them because a circumcision has found its tell us in christ on the other hand uh the judy eisers themselves could have taken the dispensationalist position and they wouldn't have raised a fuss about it because of course paul wouldn't circumcise uh the gentiles because after all they're not part of israel they're part of a totally different program and yet the debate arose and it seems to me the debate only arose because of what covenant theology traditional reform covenant theology says is true that the fulfillment of all of god's old promises have come to pass in christ certain systems of ritual and certain old testament signs have passed away in light of the in light of the new i would want to add that circumcision specifically has been fulfilled in baptism but that's just a one line of argument that i think helpfully illumines the unity of the scriptures amen and i do have to give this caveat here that i do love and respect and enjoy my dispensationalist brethren like one of my heroes john macarthur and one of the key sponsors of this radio program uh wading river baptist church on long island is a calvinistic dispensationalist church and so i don't want to give the impression that i am uh discounting them entirely or making them enemies of the reformed faith or something like that but but if you could just in about a minute time summarize what you most want etched in the hearts of our listeners today well i appreciate that final question i would say fix your eyes upon the mystery of christ revealed and recognize that your entire christian life is framed by the coming of christ in time crucified and raised if you belong to him your citizenship is in heaven if you're a minister of the word of god you have a ministry of power of humility of great privilege as a pilgrim an alien a ministry of heavenly wonder as the powers and principalities of the spiritual world marvel as people come to know uh faith in the son of god and remember that in this life it is a ministry and a christian life more broadly of suffering suffering in union with christ until he returns and our joy in the mode of suffering uh turns to unmitigated sinless joy by sight and uh the christian life is the most marvelous thing in the world amen and the website for westminster theological seminary is wts .edu

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wts .edu and banner of truth's website for the conference next week that carlton wynn will be speaking at banner of truth .org