The Birthplace of Bad Theology | Theocast

Hi, this is Justin. Question for you. Where does all bad theology come from? Here at Theocast, it is our conviction that all bad theology comes from a loss of the one true foundation on which the church can stand.

And that foundation is Jesus Christ, his work in our place, counted to us by faith alone. So we're gonna talk about that today on the podcast. And then in the members episode, we deal with some common objections to the emphasis that the Reformation puts on Christ alone and faith alone.

We hope this is a helpful conversation for you. Stay tuned.

If you'd like to help support Theocast, you can do that by leaving us a review on iTunes and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Plus, we have a Facebook group if you'd like to join the conversation there.

Thanks for listening.

The Church's One Foundation Is Christ Alone

Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ. Conversations about the Christian life from a reformed perspective. Our hosts today are John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, just south of beautiful Nashville, and myself, Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in also beautiful Nashville, North Carolina.

John is trying to distract me with this very cool Theocast mug, which you can find that kind of swag over on the website, I do believe, if you're interested in having some Theocast merch. And now that I've shamelessly done that, it's good to be with you around the microphone, John.

And for all those out there listening, it's good to be able to talk again about our one hope and the rock of our salvation, who is Jesus Christ. John, how are you today, man? It's a busy season in my world.

I don't know about you.

Yeah, no, it's definitely, it's been busy, been busy here. I don't know what it is about January, but it's like Project Central. So my project list, we're gonna actually finish my office right now. My backdrop is actually, these are all my books in my downstairs living room, sitting at my bar top here over here.

But my office is about to finally start get that construction going. And it just, yeah, January is, it's like, I always get too ambitious about what I'm doing. And then by February, I'm just like, man, I'm so done.

So that's good.

I feel like things are really busy right now, but I also realize that I've been saying that for a long time. Like many, many a month have I been saying, like stuff is just crazy right now. And I don't know if I just have a skewed perspective on that or if like I and you and others are just trying to do too much.

I'm not really sure. It's probably a combination of all that.

But yeah.

Well, I will say when it gets into summertime, my schedule does slow down because I purposely like to do things, like go places with my family and golf. So I tend to, I book in my works. I work really hard at the beginning of the year, slows down in the middle, then I work really hard at the end of the year.

That's my theory. My wife says I am totally blind.

Yeah. So I don't know. I don't even know what my theory on it is. I mean, I think there are certain seasons of the year that do feel a little bit easier, but they're kind of hard to predict, it seems.

And you just occasionally look up.

And it's not as insane right now.

I think all of our bad decisions are built upon just the wrong kind of foundation in the brain.

So we gotta.

So, so true, man. The wrong foundation. Boom, we need to.

Wrong foundation.

We need to make sure that we're building on a firm and solid foundation as we think about decision-making and everything else in our lives.

That's right. That's right. That's right.

Well, that's what we're gonna be talking about today. It's a subject that has been brewing in mine and Justin's conversations over the last, well, I guess a while, but just trying to articulate.

If I can interject, I mean, not only brewing in our hearts and minds for a while, I think it is foundational. I'm not trying to be cute here. It is foundational to everything that we're doing at TheoCast.

And even what I would, I would say characterizes our ministries in our local churches too.

Yeah, oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's, lately with TheoCast, we've been, those who have been joining are really vocal and man, they're involved and it's, it's unreal in how encouraging everybody is. And so many people are hungry and coming from all kinds of backgrounds.

We're not just talking Baptist background. We're not talking Calvinistic, people coming from charismatic, legalism, fundamentalism. I mean, it's a broad perspective. And I know this to be true in my own church where my church has seen a pretty big influx of the charismatics who are leaving that theology and coming into our church and people from fundamentalism coming in this direction.

So one of the things that I get asked about all the time is these people are finding rest and they love it. They love how much joy there is in Christ. And what's their number one passion? They want to rescue anybody and everybody from their past.

They want everybody to know what kind of joy they can have. And they call me and they text me so frustrated with the text conversations they're having and the dinner conversations they're having. They're like, John, how do I show them?

How do I show them that this is so wrong? And they get so upset because not because these people are wrong, but they're missing out on just the absolute joy that you can have in the midst of pain, suffering and a world that is crumbling.

And so one of the conversations I've been having with Justin about this is how do we help people articulate the patience that is required? And what are we trying to accomplish when we're being patient with people who we theologically disagree with?

Like, what are we trying to do? So one of the things that here at Theocast you'll notice is that we have no problem talking about bad theology and pointing out where things are off and wrong. But we aren't, I'll just say it this way, JP, and I know we didn't really talk about this beforehand, but what really annoys me about discernment ministries is that they are just hatchet jobs.

All they do is they go in and they just hack away at people's bad theology for the sake of telling them they have bad theology. Now, and I know I'm imputing people and I'm assuming their motives, but I can only go off sometimes of what I see.

And it just seems like all the conversations are about is proving where you're wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Right?

This is unbiblical, this is unbiblical, this is unbiblical.

To maybe briefly jump in and maybe rescue some of those motivations a little bit, I assume that people that are doing that, they would say, and to an extent we would agree, that in tearing down bad arguments and tearing down bad theology, you are aiming to do good to people.

And so I assume that their motivations are good in that regard.

I totally agree. It's the attitude by which is perceived. The thing is

And I'm with you, John. I mean, you and I are going in the same direction, but I just try to nuance and clarify.

Right, perception is reality. And a lot of times all people perceive you doing is coming in and telling them where they're wrong. And it seems like all it is is an attack all the time.

Now, I know this to be true because

Or poking the eye all the time.

Right, my poor wife had to deal with me doing this when I first discovered the relief of our theology.

Sure.

It was like everything she did was wrong. And it just overwhelmed her because she never felt like she could trust anything because everything was wrong. And so instead of building up a better foundation and then moving someone to that foundation, we just toppled it down, battering rams.

We're just these wrecking balls.

Right.

Right, a theological wrecking ball. And so what I've learned is that, sure, you can liberate people from bad theology, but what did you liberate them to? It's more of you crumbled them. You didn't assure them.

So what we want to talk about today is the birthplace of bad theology. And if you understand where it comes from, then it's a lot easier to deal with it than it is just to destroy it. Because if you understand something and the root cause of it, it's kind of like versus leaving the splinter in your arm and taking an ibuprofen, or maybe going to the splinter and figuring out how to get it out, the stick in the arm.

So that's kind of where we're at with this. We're going to talk broadly about the birthplace of bad theology. And then, depending on how this goes, we would love to do a subsequent podcast talking about how maybe it plays out in different areas.

Some of the various manifestations.

In theology throughout history. That's right.

So we didn't talk exactly about this either, John, and I'm going to spring this on you. What makes sense to me is we're looking at the next 30 minutes or so. We can talk about where bad theology comes from, kind of high level, and make some comments there.

Then maybe transition to how that relates to our posture and our method here at Theocast.

That's right.

And even for ourselves, maybe in our own churches too. And then maybe conclude, at least this portion, with some allusions to some of the various manifestations of this systemic problem. That seem good?

Yep.

I just kind of did the preacher thing where I gave everybody the outline.

That's right.

You're welcome.

Get your pencils out.

Here we go.

I don't know. Yeah, absolutely. Notetakers in the room. Here we go. Point one. Yeah, so let's talk about the real issue, the heart of the matter here. From our perspective, the birthplace of bad theology is a result of, or the birthplace of bad theology, let me just say it this way, is losing the foundation of all true religion, which the foundation of the one true religion in the world is justification by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

And so if we lose that foundation of Christ and Christ alone being the ground of our peace before God and Jesus being our righteousness, him making satisfaction for our sins, his work, his merit being applied to us by faith alone, all of those things, if we lose that foundation, then bad theology will necessarily follow.

And so we're just gonna talk for a little bit about that foundation and the loss of it and the fallout of that. So, yeah, there's a reason why we talk constantly about Jesus on this podcast. And there's a reason why John and I, as pastors of churches, every single week in our pulpits, unashamedly herald Jesus Christ and the justification that is ours in him.

Because it is our understanding that this is the only firm, true, and solid foundation upon which imperfect, sinful people can stand. And so I might, if I can, you know, this is a reformed podcast and we oftentimes point people to the confessions.

And I think one of the best paragraphs in the confession that my church uses, that John's church uses, the 1689 London Baptist Confession, one of the best paragraphs in the whole thing is chapter 11, paragraph one on justification.

And I may just read this. We do this about every six months and I think it's useful to do. So that paragraph reads this way. Those God affectionately calls, he also freely justifies. And to be justified, just for the sake of clarity, is to be declared righteous.

It is to be reckoned righteous. It's a legal term. It is not that we in and of ourselves are righteous. It's that we are deemed to be so and we are considered that and declared to be that. So those whom God affectionately calls, he also freely justifies.

He does this not by infusing righteousness into them. So he doesn't just give us a dose of righteousness so that we then become righteous. He does this by pardoning their sins and accounting and accepting them as righteous.

He does this for Christ's sake alone and not for anything produced in them or done by them. That's massive. It's for Jesus's sake alone. And it's not for anything that is produced in us or anything that we do.

He does not, God does not impute faith itself, the act of believing or any other gospel obedience to them as their righteousness. So this is important. It's not our faith that is our righteousness. It's not the act of believing that is our righteousness.

It is not any other obedience that is our righteousness. Christ is our righteousness. Instead, God imputes Christ's active obedience to the whole law, that's his perfect life, and his passive obedience in his death as their whole and only righteousness by faith.

This faith is not self-generated. It is the gift of God. So the firm foundation, John, in other words, is the fact that Jesus Christ is our whole and only righteousness. And we receive that righteousness by faith alone, apart from anything in us, apart from anything that we do.

We don't achieve it. We receive it, and it is Christ's righteousness that's counted to wretches like us by faith. And that is the firm foundation upon which true religion is built and upon which the church stands.

So that's our starting point. This is where we at Theocast want to drive everyone towards to understand that if your foundation is not there, you have no hope. You should not have hope. Your hope should be questionable because everything else is sinking sand, as the song says.

It can absolutely not withstand the judgment requirement that God will put upon it. The weight of your sin will sink you if you are not standing on the firm foundation of Jesus Christ. So if you understand that

We could sing a song, How Weak a Foundation, about

That's right.

Some of these other things.

We'll harmonize for you. Well, those of you who don't know, Justin actually has a pretty amazing voice.

Oh my goodness.

You got to go to his church to find that out. Or live stream. Do you sing on your live stream?

There you go.

Let's send everybody to do a live stream. I know, total distraction.

I apologize.

This is something that helped me really strongly is that when I am dealing with somebody who is believing something that I think is not only unbiblical, and we may disagree on in times, but I think damaging.

It's hurtful to their spiritual health. They probably are going to be frustrated and even question their assurance. When I know I'm talking to somebody like that, I can't just go over and push them off of the foundation that they're on because that not only removes their security, but anybody who feels unsafe, they don't respond well to that.

It's like a scared animal. You corner a scared animal and that's going to go sideways on you really fast. So one of the things that you need to think about is that before someone can identify they're on a bad foundation or they're standing on a bad foundation, you have to begin to point out maybe the weakness of their foundation while you're pointing to a strong foundation.

So this is kind of where we're getting at. The birthplace of all bad theology is when I'm talking with somebody who has, and we'll probably get into this later. It could be fundamentalism. It could be the Calvinistic pietism that's out there or even the charismatic theology.

If you look at those systems, they're built on what I call a prop-up position where they're trying to prop themselves up by different methods so that they can look at those methods and then find assurance that they are good with God.

And I will say almost all bad theology is the attempt of finding your assurance, your right position before God in anything else other than Jesus Christ and the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm gonna try to qualify what I'm about to say. When John and I are using the language of finding assurance, we're talking in absolute terms here. The confessions are clear that our assurance can be bolstered, for example, by our good works, but our good works are never the foundation or the ground of our assurance.

And so what we're talking about is ground zero. What is the foundation of our assurance and peace before the Lord? What is the foundation of our salvation, of our hope, of our confidence, of all of that?

And we're speaking in absolute terms because this is bottom of the barrel, like rubber meets the road. What is it that we're standing on and what is it that is our hope and our confidence? And the answer to that question, biblically speaking, is only Jesus Christ.

And so what we are constantly doing, I agree, John, with what you said, and we're kind of transitioning to our methodology here in the way that we're talking about this, and I trust that will become clear.

But what we're doing constantly as preachers or as hosts of this show is we continue to beat the drum of Jesus Christ, His righteousness, His satisfaction, His work, and that being the only thing that you can ever trust in, hope in, rest in, or find peace in.

And so what we're doing there, it's kind of a twofold thing. We're trying to extol as much as possible all of these things about Jesus and who He is and what He's done so that we might look to Him and be satisfied in that and rest in that and look to nothing else.

We're doing that. But then we're also trying, like you said, to point out how these other foundations, these other things that we all tend to look to are really, really lousy foundations. They're just not solid, they're weak, they're rotten.

They can't bear weight. They certainly can't bear the weight of our sin and our transgressions, the weight of our corruption. So I find that that's really, I mean, for me as a pastor, brother, that is so much of the work that I feel like I'm doing in an ongoing manner.

And I think in this podcast, it's what we're doing in an ongoing way because we all tend to want to look to other stuff. And we all tend to not just look to other stuff but begin to kind of put our hope in some other things.

Or we fall into the trap of reasoning where it's like, well, there need to be these other things. There needs to be evidence and all this stuff. And then we start putting our hope in the evidence, not in the groundwork of our justification, which is Christ.

And so it sounds at points like we're trying to have a very nuanced kind of splitting hairs conversation, but it makes all the difference in the world. To be clear, like we've said so many times, for example, that things that flow out of the gospel aren't the gospel.

So yeah, there are all kinds of implications for our lives that do matter. There are things that are gonna flow out of our justification, namely our good works. But to begin to put our hope in any way in those things is wrong.

And to begin to look to those things in any way is effectively you trying to build your Christian life and to build your assurance on a shaky foundation. And as you've said, there are many manifestations of this, which we may allude to more in just a moment, but they all come from the same place.

Yeah, please jump in. And then I may talk about my posture as a pastor, or even as a host of Theocast and why we do what we do.

If you're new to Theocast, we have a free ebook available for you called Faith vs. Faithfulness, A Primer on Rest. And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a Reformed confessional perspective.

You can get your free copy at theocast .org slash primer.

The Problem of Propping Up a Shaky House

Think about a house that is not built on a very solid foundation and it starts to topple over or adjust, or you have cracks and things start falling apart. What you then have to do is prop and put things in place that should never even be there.

They're not even supposed to be a part of the original design of the house. And so you have this patched together house that the more you patch it, the worse that it gets. And before you know it, you're looking at it and you're like, there's a resemblance of a house there, but it is a convoluted mess of patchwork.

And it is not really functioning. It seems like there's always something breaking. And what you end up becoming is exhausted by this constant patchwork you find yourself in. Because if I put this over here, then I'm imbalanced over here and I gotta add this.

And I've met Christians who are so overwhelmed because they can't seem to keep everything propped up or all the balls in the air or all the plates spinning. There's this constant frantic feel that if I don't hold this correctly, then this is gonna fall down.

And it can be manifested in multiple different ways. And we don't have time in the podcast today to get into it. But what I'm trying to get at is that what makes Reformed theology so refreshing and what was recovered during the Reformation was the solid foundation.

This is what Luther found himself. Luther was exhausted. He could not keep it up. He realized the entire foundation that his entire religious experience was built on was just crushing him underneath the weight of his sin, under the weight of the sin.

So when someone introduced to him Christ, it was like the weight was gone. He now understood that all of this bad theology that had been placed on top of him where it came from. And once he did, he slowly started to drift away from the Roman Catholic Church.

Not at first, he was trying to change it within and realized he couldn't do it. And so he slowly started to drift away from it. And then of course, during the Reformation, that constantly happens. And I will tell you that Justin and I, that is our experience.

Once we understood that our foundation was a little off, that we weren't fully standing on the sufficiency of Christ.

Though we would have claimed to be.

Right, yeah, absolutely. And people will say, well, no, I, and this is the hard part about it is like, no, no, no, no, no, John. I believe that we are saved by grace alone. Unless anybody, yeah. And we'll get into that in coming in.

But I think what I want you to hear is that I can barely think of a theology, a bad doctrinal position that isn't down the road, directly propping up a bad theological position that isn't related to one's assurance in Christ.

It may not be directly connected, but it is connected in some way back to the history of they got assurance wrong. And now because of that, you have all of these tentacles that go out that are all, they're all propping up something that was first of all built in the wrong place.

Yeah, they're all a manifestation or a form of what I would call Jesus plus theology.

That's right.

Everybody is agreeing that we're saved. I mean, people will say this, and this is part of the frustration that I think some of our listeners experience. And I've even seen people in my own church as they're trying to talk with friends or loved ones or other people, they feel this frustration too.

Because when you talk to other people who are Christians, they of course are going to agree with you. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. If they're Protestant, right? They're going to absolutely affirm that.

But then you, and then I think a lot of times people, like again, our listeners or people in our churches, as they're trying to talk with others, they get frustrated because they're like, no, you don't get it.

Like you, you're saying you agree with me, but you don't really agree with me. And then they're, like you said earlier, John, they're sort of emailing us and calling us and saying like, guys, what do I do?

How do I help people see? And a lot of times our response is unsatisfactory for people because we'll tell them, all right, you need to be patient. You need to be gracious. You need to be winsome and kind and humble.

And you need to play the long game and you need to just love these people and slow drip this stuff over the course of time and trust the Lord with it. And people are like, okay, but that just doesn't seem like a sufficient plan of attack here.

Like I got to have something else. And I think this brings us back to...

Can I jump in real quick? What I hear is this, but John, they don't see how bad this is. And I'm like, you should hear yourself. You're right. They don't see it, which means you should be patient.

Well, exactly. And like we've said a number of times, you're not, and you even said something like this before we recorded today, you're not going to convince people of their own off-centered, not great theology by just always punching them in the face.

Like there are other ways to go about doing it, right? That they're actually more effective. And so for us, the posture that we take as a general rule here at Theocast, and I know this is true for me at CBC and John, I know it's true for you at Grace Reformed Church, is to continue to unashamedly over and over and over again, every time we record and every time we preach, point people to Christ and Him alone.

And so we're preaching that and nuancing that maybe different ways every time we talk about it. It's like that proverbial diamond, and we just kind of keep slightly turning it and letting people just gaze at it.

And what we're trying to do there is at least a couple of things. One, we're trying to so catechize people as to what the real thing is, that they then over the course of time are better able to recognize the counterfeit.

They realize, oh, like this thing over here that I'm thinking about, or I'm kind of trusting in a little bit, I realize that I'm off and that that's not Jesus and thereby it will fail me. They'll realize that every time.

But then the other thing that we're trying to do is show them by constantly heralding Christ and extolling Him, we're trying to help them see the beauty and the goodness of Christ and the fact that He really is sufficient.

And so it's a twofold thing. You're helping them see the error, but then you're also helping them to just seep, like soak in, I should say, steep in, soak in Jesus so that they're satisfied in Christ and that they are resting in Him and really do believe that Christ will do, and that there isn't anything else that they need to add into it.

And it can't be done overnight, right? It takes time. And that's why we exhort people to patience and graciousness as they deal with people who don't yet see this stuff, because it will happen. I mean, sometimes it takes a while and when it happens, it's very clear.

The light bulb goes off, the toothpaste is out of the tube and they can't get it back in, but they don't want to anyway, because it's like, man, this is so good. And anyway, it's worth the wait.

Right, I think you have to understand, one of the things that I even used to do when I was first in ministry dealing with college students, I was always trying to correct every little thing that was off and wrong that they had.

And I never really understood how they were all connected. So, their perspective on this and their perspective on that. And it was always, well, let's look at this Bible, let's look at this Bible verse.

And the longer I was a pastor, I started to realize that almost every little thing I was dealing with was a symptom of a greater problem. And what we're trying to say is that, if you can identify that almost all theological issues are directly connected to an assurance issue, and to be clear, sometimes when I say there's a result of a result, because I'm sure someone can say, how is this directly connected to the doctrine of assurance?

And that might just be a theological difference within Christianity, okay? Let's be clear, denominations, if you're not a Baptist, then it's an assurance issue. Not necessarily, okay? So, let's be clear on that.

But what I'm talking about is real theological issues. Well, we're talking about, it is a problem. It's pretty far off. That if you can understand that the root cause of this is directly connected. And so what I try and do is I walk people backwards.

Like, why do you think that it's necessary that you perform or do this, or believe this, or hold to that, or not hold to that, or not partake in that? And then you start walking them back. And eventually what I'm trying to do is I'm having them look at where they're looking to.

Like, if I do this, or if I don't do this, what am I looking to that it will perform or not perform? Or what will it do in my heart and my mind? We were even saying before the podcast got started that we were thinking about the charismatic movement.

And that a lot of people in that movement, they truly just wanna see the power of God in a world where they think it's, we've lost sight of how glorious and powerful God is. And it's like, how do you fault that, right?

How do you fault that desire?

Yeah, they wanna see the power of God because they don't think that the power of God is being, that it's not demonstrably at work, you know, in many churches or whatever. And we wanna see the power of God.

And now I'm with you there. I wanna comment on something that you said. And we've sort of said this a few times already, but sometimes nuance is helpful for people as they listen. And sometimes, you know, you need to hear it said a couple of different ways and then it clicks.

I think that, like you said, John, the foundation or the birthplace of all bad theology can be traced back to compromising what the scripture teaches with respect to justification. And what I mean specifically is, it can all be traced back to trying to add something in some form or fashion to Christ and his work.

And really when we say justification, we mean, you know, we're declared righteous now and forever. So like not just peace with God now, peace with God forever, right? And so whenever you start bringing anything else into that equation, anything other than Jesus, who he is and what he's done, inevitably bad theology follows from that.

And so it doesn't matter if you're talking about Jesus plus circumcision, you know, or Jesus plus a work of the law, or Jesus plus speaking in tongues or whatever. If you fill in the blank, right? Or Jesus plus, you know, abstinence from certain kinds of behaviors.

I mean, we could go on and on and on. Anytime it's Jesus and something, we've lost the only foundation on which the church can stand. We have given it all away. They can't, you know, and yeah, we could rant on that for a while, but that's what we're trying to draw out here is there are so many ways.

And I think many of them, what's hard here is that many of them are so subtle. Because again, you're going to ask people, how are they justified? And they're going to say Christ. But then functionally and practically, it becomes quite clear that it is Jesus and this other stuff that is the ground of our hope.

Because, you know, like in some contexts, well, I'm just, I'm hoping in Christ. It's like, well, you know, but you need to be concerned about good works. Well, you know, I'm hoping in Christ. And in some contexts, it's like, okay, but, James, all right, you know, I'm hoping in Christ.

But in some contexts, it's like, well, you know, you need to be concerned with speaking in tongues and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In other contexts, it's like, man, I'm hoping in Christ. And it's like, well, yeah, but you need to be concerned about your affections and your disciplines.

And in other contexts, it's I'm hoping in Christ. Well, you know, you need to be concerned about the kind of media that you're consuming. You know, what kind of movies you're watching and what kind of music you're listening to and how you dress for church on Sunday or whatever.

And it's like, okay, it's very clear that to hope in Christ alone always has been and still is and always will be scandalous. Because in our like legal spirits, we are always wanting to be able to contribute something or point to some other stuff.