September 27, 2017 Show with Chris Rosebrough on “The Protestant Reformation: Why it Was Necessary & Why it’s Still Needed (Part 2)”

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Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio

.com.

This is Chris Arnz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 27th

day of September 2017 and I'm delighted to have Back as a

returning guest to iron sharpens iron radio somebody who has certainly quickly become one of my favorite guests

Chris Rosebrough a confessional Lutheran and pastor of Kongsvinger Lutheran

Church in Oslo, Minnesota which is a member of the

AALC Synod and He also runs a pirate Christian radio and hosts

the fighting for the faith podcast today.

We are addressing part two of a discussion that we began last week the Protestant Reformation.

Why it was necessary and why it's still needed with today being a special emphasis on the latter

part of that statement why it's still needed and.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio pastor Chris Roseborough.

Thanks for having back Chris.

It's a lot of fun.

Yes, it is.

And.

Visiting a co -host today.

I'm so delighted to have in studio with me for the first time Pastor Luke T

Zimmerman of Calvary Evangelical Lutheran Church in Mechanics Berg, Pennsylvania.

Which is a member of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.

And it's great to have you as a part of our discussion for the first time today pastor Luke.

Thanks, Chris.

Look forward to it.

And in studio also is my regular co -host the Reverend buzz Taylor and I'm not of any of those.

We're still wondering if you're Christian buzz.

A little ecumenical gathering here today and there are millions of embarrassed Presbyterians right now.

But if anybody would like to join us on the air right now with a question for Chris Roseborough We've got

regarding our topic.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris.

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please at least give us your first name your city and state of residence in your country or residence if you live

outside of the USA before we jump into the discussion at hand since pastor Luke

is A first -time participant on iron Sherpins iron radio.

I wanted to get a little bit of your background.

Pastor Luke not everyone has a cookie cutter Experience with the Christian faith, although there is one

gospel That saves us and one Christ that saves us.

There are different providential occurrences in our lives that bring us to a knowledge of

Christ that Bring us to a knowledge of the gospel a knowledge of his word.

And for instance You have some people raised in the Christian faith who cannot remember

a time in their lives when they? Did not believe in Jesus.

And there are others that have more of a crisis experience Where there is more of a stark contrast from

darkness to light that they can vividly remember.

But let's hear about your story about when you came to realize that The

Bible is true that Jesus Christ truly is God and that the Trinity is a truth and

The gospel is the one and only way to salvation and so on.

And and of course added on to that when you realize that you had received a call from God to the pastorate.

Oh, okay.

Sure Chris.

Yeah, I come from one of those families.

That was, you know members of the church kind of from way back.

Come from a two parents who were believers they were Lutheran school teachers to

begin with and my father went off to the seminary himself and I'm one of those that really can't remember not

being part of the church not being part of the group of people who hear all about

Christ's work.

As the scriptures talk about it so it was always kind of part of the childhood and and growing up had an

opportunity to Attend Lutheran parochial school all the way from first grade through ninth

grade and I you know kind of thank God for that because not everyone has an opportunity obviously and

as far as when it came into the seminary it helps to be from a From a family that has a clergy

in it.

You kind of sort of know a little bit about it, but quite honestly You know, it kind of

reached halfway through my senior year of college and It's so interesting it had had

applications for graduate school and law school and those things just never got filled out.

And part of it was the encouragement of our our Lutheran campus group home

congregation other people who knew me and said we really think this might be something you ought to

take up and Also having the opportunity to like teach Sunday school classes and things

before that and kind of kind of ushered in.

And how long have you been pastoring there at Calvary?

Evangelical Lutheran at Calvary.

I've been there nine years and a couple of months and.

One thing that's interesting and unique about your congregation or the congregation where you pastor is

that the Calvary Evangelical Lutheran Church of Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania is a

host site for Concordia seminaries.

Continuing education courses.

That's true.

Yeah, we've been doing that for five years or so.

We usually have about three days either at the very very tail end of July or very very beginning of August

where a professor comes in and Teaches for for a few days and it really helps us who

our pastors in the field.

We remember our classes.

We remember things we taught we many of us still have those textbooks and they refer back to them and and

things but to have Instructor come in and especially to have a fellowship time as well

for a number of our especially LCMS clergy in this Mid -Atlantic region and we gather

together and and the idea of Sharpening the blades a little more.

Yeah, definitely.

So so that kind of continuing that is a an important thing now.

I understand that although these courses are coming from a distinctly and

specifically a Lutheran perspective that members Of the clergy of other

denominations are welcome to take part in the courses.

Yeah, certainly they could.

And if they.

If they have an interest in it Look look for some information to come out to you know.

Kind of a spring and summer and the more the merrier and we'll be repeating your contact information

towards the end of the program.

So Everybody listening should make sure that they have a pen and paper Handy for all of the

contact information that we'll be giving During the broadcast today and let me repeat once again our email

address.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and If you have a question for today's guest

Chris Roseboro Please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

Well a pastor Chris, I think that it would be wise for us even though we pretty much wrapped up

the first half of our stated theme

last week the Protestant Reformation.

Why it was necessary.

If you could give us a summary perhaps before we go on to the next Important aspect of this why it's still

needed.

All right in talking about the Reformation clearly the mitigating need.

For.

Reformation was that the church had mixed the sound doctrine of Scripture

with literal man -made doctrines and traditions that had obscured

conflicted with and totally obliterated in many cases the

salvation by grace through faith alone and because of the

mythological man -made doctrines that had crept into the church.

Including indulgences the doctrine of purgatory Prayers to the saints praying

masses for the dead and all this other nonsense that crept up in the Middle Ages.

What ended up happening is that people were not hearing the clarion call of the gospel? who

repents of their sins and be forgiven by the shed blood of Christ and that Christ was

sufficient for our salvation.

And as the results of Martin Luther's rediscovery of the gospel and

then beginning to challenge the Roman Catholic practice of indulgences.

Which at the time was the fundraising technique that they were using to raise the funds to?

Build st. Peter's in Rome.

That that's really what kind was the spark that hit the tender that ignited the whole thing.

Was what.

And unfortunately as we are on the eve of the

500th the posting of the 95 theses.

The Christianity is in dire need of of a reformation again

because a whole new crop of devilish doctrines man -made

traditions and ideas have crept into the visible church and are once again

Obscuring sound biblical doctrine and covering up and obliterating in many cases

the biblical doctrine of the real gospel.

Of.

Salvation through Christ I.

Don't know if you've experienced this but when I when I speak to people

who perhaps Are either really caught up in more of

a shallow Modern evangelicalism or perhaps they're just nominal believers

or just raw unbelievers.

When you discuss with them Christianity and the differences between

denominations and so forth people's understanding can be very

surface level and Peripheral.

They will say things like oh You you're different from the Roman

Catholics because you don't burn incense and you know, they call their ministers father

and priests and You know, they will they will only Focus on things like that that are

external.

But the the differences that separate True

heirs of the Reformation and the Church of Rome are much more huge much more

Significant and in fact have much more serious consequences that have

eternal ramifications, don't they.

Oh.

Yeah, and for somebody to just kind of judge based upon mere appearances

especially in regards to things where there is neither a commandment that forbids

or Opera.

They they look at mere appearances on things like this and they don't look at the substance of what it

is.

That's thought in Rome or in Lutheranism or the Presbyterian Church.

And when they make those surface level judgments.

They.

They couldn't be you know farther away from what they really need to be doing and This

is a part driven by the fact that.

In our lifetimes gentlemen, you know Chris included we've seen a major

drift with an evangelicalism and you know when I was growing up in

Evangelicalism you could still hear God's Word preached.

At least with some depth and times the pastor would confuse the biblical

distinctions of law and gospel.

But at least people would get a fair and would be

familiar with the actual.

This has been replaced with an hour under the guise of well.

We need to be contempt

of God's Word and it begins on the stage.

It begins on the stage and now it's

designed to be relevant to help you make a difference in the world.

And then small group Bible studies aren't really Bible studies.

You'll read a couple of verses out of context and then go around the room sharing with each other.

What that and as a result of it?

There are a lot of people who are engaging in religious church activity in places

that and you

know.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but when introducing my guest co -host

pastor Luke Zimmerman.

One of the things that I forgot to mention which has relevance to our discussion today One thing

that gets to be confusing is when even Missouri Synod Lutheran congregations call themselves

things such as Calvary Evangelical Lutheran Church because immediately one may

think of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.

Which is ironically in spite of the name Evangelical is the most liberal of the

synods.

In fact.

Most of my conservative Bible believing friends in and out of Lutheranism would call them apostate.

But why is it that the Missouri Synod and even the Wisconsin Synod congregations

Still carry with them often the term evangelical in their name.

Well, so that has to do with carrying things over from Europe.

I mean the idea of the evangelicals was kind of like the name that.

What we kind of call Lutherans now really thought of themselves as I mean the idea of

restoring restoring the gospel being bound to the gospel and its articles.

The idea of You know really preaching the atoning work of Christ as the way that we are made

right with God.

And his justice it was you know, just part and parcel of it.

I mean that that's what we were about the idea of we're in the church.

But we are fully emphasizing this and then when you come into the United States.

Well some of the.

Yeah, some of the American religious landscape is different.

But you have this name that you brought with you from from the old world.

And there's another kind of thing there were there were different types of Lutherans, of course within the United States and some of

them Really looked at themselves as being kind of a united Lutheran or Union Lutheran and that

was not really keeping as much some of the distinctions between Lutheran teaching and other Protestant teaching.

So so some it is a little bit of a kind of An out -of -place sort of thing

now.

Because even someone outside of Lutheranism like myself, I'm a Reformed Baptist the Calvinist.

And.

We.

Sometimes wonder When it is appropriate or if it is appropriate anymore to even use

the term evangelical because it seems to become meaningless because of the way that things

change over time.

As you know, and they're used in completely different ways and a key example is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of

America.

Pastor Chris if you could tell us approximately when that church

really completely jumped the ship of orthodoxy.

Well, that's going to be yeah, I would go back to the 60s.

You know kind of post is when things began to kind of pick up ahead of steam.

But in our lifetimes really since the 80s It's begun to come to a head and

then in the early 2000s I mean that the liberals

in that that is the fruit of Of

decisions that were made decades and in some cases, you know almost a century earlier.

Going back to the seminary educations that people were receiving in continental Europe which was a

fashionable thing for Lutheran pastors to do in the 20th century to to go to Germany

to go to begin Earlong in places like that and get their seminary education those

seminaries had made the decision to basically engage in what is known as

higher criticism and And literally attack the scriptures and question its

authority its authorship its inspiration and things of this nature and.

And kind of relegated to a man -made book or you know a man -made library

of people's experiences with the divine or whatever and.

And you question, you know who wrote it when it was written, especially in regards to the

Gospels.

You know, they they absolutely denied that.

They were written by the eyewitnesses very early after the death resurrection and ascension of Christ

modernism had a huge impact on their understanding of the biblical text and they were denying that

miracles were possible and As a result of it, I mean they literally undercut

the entire you know foundation of and then you know began

to become you know Congregations adrift at sea as more and more of their Pastors

being trained in this in seminary would come back and teach this to their congregation.

And so this took place over a long period of time to a head in the you know.

The first decade of of this millennium

continues to roll down the tracks and heading to the cliff.

Now sadly, this is the the ELC a That is the largest

Denomination that identifies itself as Lutheran, is it not?

Yes, and the United States anyway.

Now would you go as far as I would and label it as an apostate?

Organization.

Organization itself is firmly promoting an apostate religion.

That is neither evangelical or Lutheran.

But that does not mean that there are not some kind of holdout Pastors within that Senate.

I know if you fell are delaying retire.

Yeah, I've met on a couple of occasions.

Well.

At reformed Bible conferences.

I've met a couple of e LCA ministers who were thoroughly.

Conservative.

Who were in attendance and They pretty much gave the same kind of an explanation as to why they're still

there.

Have you ever heard of a liberal?

Reasoning.

How they could in any logical and consistent way Identify themselves

as a Lutheran when they if they were to be honest would know that if Luther

returned To the planet Earth today, he would never join any of their congregations.

That's an interesting question.

I think they've maintained something of a cold.

One of the things we have to remember is that into the United States

oftentimes through immigrants who Remain distinct to their kind of

cultural heritage.

So you're going to have pockets of Lutheranism that are Norwegian Swedish

German times.

The ethnicity is the piece that kind of holds it all together.

So in these in these congregations where the truth has been a little

aisle of the scriptures They hang on to

come time tied to their ethnicity.

So in in our region over here, we have a lot of Norwegian Lutheran and the

liberal Norwegian Lutheran.

I mean, they're they're Lutheran because their mom was Lutheran their grandma was Lutheran and And the

Lutheran thing to do is to have left so that if you

were to have a Lutheran You're not going to get anything even mostly sounding like the

Augsburg Confession, right?

I have a.

Childhood friend of mine who was raised in a Missouri Synod

Congregation nearby where I live and We went to separate high schools.

He went to a Lutheran high school and so on and when he moved to Utah

He just joined the closest Lutheran Church, and then he was started to hear what was being taught and he was

from a more conservative bent.

Not the most religious guy, but he was a Member a lifetime member of born and

raised in Lutheranism, but he it was a different animal altogether that he was experiencing and he

had to leave there because even outside of

Christian doctrine he could sense that there was something so leftist about this congregation that he could not

remain there.

Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true.

And we're going to go to our first Station break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris.

Arnzen a gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

good ole USA and only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which

you are asking and.

So don't go away.

God willing. We're gonna be right back after these messages with Chris Roseboro and why the Reformation is

still needed.

We'll be right back.

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Well, we are back now with our discussion With Chris Roseboro.

This is a continuation of a discussion.

We began last Wednesday on the theme the Protestant Reformation why it was necessary and why it's

still needed and Today we are really primarily discussing the latter.

Why it's still needed and in studio with me is a special guest co -host Reverend

Luke T Zimmerman who is pastor of Calvary Evangelical Lutheran Church in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Which is a Lutheran

Church, Missinis, Missouri Synod congregation and in studio also is Reverend buzz Taylor my

normal co -host.

We are facing unique things today as you know, Pastor Chris

Martin Luther was primarily Protesting against the idolatry and the

works righteousness gospel of Rome.

But today we not only have that to contend with but liberalism is at its worst.

We have ministers who claim to be ambassadors of Christ.

Marrying men to men and women to women.

We have all kinds of grotesque and horrific practices being conducted in the name of Jesus Christ,

so the Reformation that we speak of is more than just Continually

Shining the spotlight on the fact that Rome still has a false gospel One

contrary to the biblical gospel that has that offers no real hope for a true peace or

eternal life but also we have this grotesque mutation of the left

that disguises itself as Christianity because they claim to be more loving compassionate and tolerant and

Understanding than we are and they believe that the right thing to fulfill those kind of attributes

which they would claim are attributes of Christ is to be welcoming of people to be unrepentant

and Enter into any sphere of life.

That they choose to while carrying with them the baggage of their Homosexuality or whatever else

whatever abomination that they care to identify themselves with so this is quite a

Different world than Luther's world, isn't it?

Yeah, and

Loving and tolerant

and legal in my

experience.

They

will

shout you down and

And and I would point

against the Nashville.

I mean, you know, I these people literally came on glued and

If you ate

in

the

Nashville,

it wasn't

right

one

thing.

I'd like to ask pastor Luke Zimmerman being a local pastor.

Do you have?

A frequent occurrence where people will wander into your congregation thinking it might be more and

along the lines of a liberal.

Elca.

Congregation.

And then they find out that you have quite a different message than what they were.

Thinking they were going to receive.

Oh every once in a while we do but actually in some ways that we kind of had the opposite happening

where people come in.

Hearing about these some of these Lutheran ideas kind of classic Lutheran ideas.

And then they they hear about this kind of strange named church body that apparently is

based in Missouri somewhere and then they and they pop in here like Yeah, and this kind of

sounds like what we had been used to and so sometimes we pick it pick people up.

Pick people up that way.

I think it's interesting pastor Chris.

I mean when you have this idea When you look at the Reformation I mean some of these idea that kind of shell of

Lutheranism that you did you kind of mentioned is it's like the idea was.

It mean to be a Lutheran and it's kind of like well you must always have a spirit of Reformation or a

spirit of change and.

You compare that to like the events in the Reformation proper itself where it was bringing the scriptures

to bear Against and what the church was teaching and and then now occasionally when you

actually say well, well, let's do that.

Let's bring the scriptures to bear.

Against.

Against what we are teaching and and is it really truly the norm like the source for

which?

From which we are gathering our teachings.

And it's like well It might be or we might substitute something else or we don't like what it says and

it's just like it's kind of completely reversed.

I mean remember the the human sexuality discussion and meeting with some of the

You might call it kind of the resistance within the LCA and They talked about this idea of you know.

The bound conscience in that was in their statements and and of course always kind of question was to what is the

conscience bound?

And I you would think they Luther would answer that in a very different way Than the way the liberal Lutherans are.

And not just us but of course Other other Protestant denominations as well.

Yeah.

Yeah, have you heard either of you from the liberal

side of Lutheranism or even just liberal apostates in general.

That they because I I heard this in one documentary.

I saw years ago Where liberals were actually saying that they are carrying on the

true spirit of Semper Reformata by by Questioning

everything and Reforming everything to the point where now, you know, we have women and

clergy in certain denominations and even unrepentant homosexuals and so on.

But what what pastor Chris Zimmerman, I'm sorry Luke Zimmerman just reflected

on is that we're supposed to be reforming according to what the scriptures teach and making ourselves more compliant and Reflective of them

not just reforming for the sake of change.

That.

One one thing that we should make sure we keep in the mix here.

Pastor Luke Zimmerman before the program began Was lamenting that

some former or perhaps they're not former friends but former

colleagues in ministry perhaps had departed from Lutheran

waters into Eastern Orthodoxy.

And People somehow have the mistaken notion that Eastern Orthodoxy

is more Orthodox ironically.

Because of the fact that they don't believe in an infallible Pope.

They don't claim the Pope is their head.

So people sometimes have a mistaken view that well, they're okay then because they don't have.

A.

Claim to an infallible papacy, so they must be more like us, but this isn't true at all.

Is it?

No.

Yeah,

by the way.

Pastor

Luke do you still have any

contact with these

friends who

have entered into

Eastern

Orthodoxy.

Yeah, we do we do but it just becomes kind of a Yeah topic of discussion.

We just don't bring up.

At some point you kind of reach a loggerhead and they've cast

their lot and you know, we hope that You know, they could.

You'll still retain a trust in in Christ's work for their salvation and.

Commend them to God's grace that way.

Well, I guess if it would be if you're a Lutheran It would be a loggerhead and if you're Greek Orthodox, it would be an ouzo head.

Possibly so.

Only if you like licorice.

The.

The thing that has become quite disturbing in that regard is that

the the Eastern Orthodox Appeal to the fact just as the Church of Rome does

they they appeal to an ancient pedigree and Just because something is ancient doesn't mean it's

ancient enough.

Am I right pastor Chris?

I mean There there were people forget when they bring it up this this ancient pedigree.

That there were heresies that sprang up while the New Testament was still being written.

I mean that that means nothing.

It doesn't prove anything.

Now would you say that even though there are many different fronts that we are facing in this

modern day of Reformation that is needed In spite of the fact that it is

multifaceted.

Our enemy is multifaceted In a much broader sense than Luther faced.

It really boils down in many senses to a rejection of the five

solos of the Reformation.

Whether you are a Roman Catholic whether you are an Eastern Orthodox or whether you are a modern

Evangelical or whether you are a Pentecostal who is always starving for an extra

biblical experience or supernatural occurrence in their life something beyond

the scriptures to to prove to them that Jesus is who he says he is or to the other

extreme of the Liberal apostate they are all rejecting in some sense

and some completely in all senses the five solos of the Reformation.

Yeah.

Deny its Sufficiency so that you can bring alongside system

all together.

Whether it's Mormonism in the Book of Mormon.

Often in the NAR it's these modern -day Apostles and prophets, you know

in in liberalism.

It's their own rationale.

They've brought alongside the script that when that move is made then the

secondary sword

altogether in

terminology, but evacuate them of any and.

And and then we're off to the races, you know.

Salvation back race.

I mean everything and

fascinating to what and I would

include in this denial of.

Sola scriptura.

The modern -day.

Allegiance that evangelicals play or give to

the role of psychology and humanist.

Philosophy in regard to psychology and as much as I have appreciated.

Some of what?

Dr. James Dobson has taught and written about.

I was always a bit troubled by an unbiblical focus

on psychological.

You know goals in life to build people's self -esteem and things like that when you never see

anything like in the scripture because.

From what I can read in the Bible.

Our problem is that we already have too high of a self -esteem.

Satan's big problem is he's taught us to do this.

He is the one who says I will.

Tell this team is believe me my ego

is the problem it is not part of the solution.

It's the thing I need to repent of.

Yeah, and far too many.

Evangelicals of all stripes, I think bow the knee to.

Too often far too often to Freud and then they may even realize rather

than to Christ.

We're going to a our midway break.

It's a bit longer than our normal break because of the fact that we are being compliant to the

specific guidelines of grace life radio in Lake City, Florida who requires our Program

to have a longer break in the middle.

So be patient with us and write down your questions and send them in while we're on this break.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, I'm going to read a question Which is being posed to both Pastor

Chris and Pastor Luke and then I'll have you both answer it when we return.

This is from Joey and Clifton, New Jersey.

He says I am wondering why we do not hear more about controversy over Mary the mother of Jesus

During the Reformation.

Is this simply because the Roman Catholic dogmas about Mary had not yet progressed to the point They would

in later councils or is it partly because even the Reformers themselves retained some aspects of their

former Mariology and the second aspect of this question or second part of the question.

Second and related is the liberalization of the modern Lutheran Church.

Do you notice any kind of resurgence of false doctrine regarding Mary.

Particularly with the progression of feminism.

Hmm.

That's interesting.

And I believe that there was a Lutheran pastor that wrote some book not long ago promoting

The adoration of Mary or or.

The.

Veneration of Mary.

But anyway, perhaps you too could think about that and respond when we return from the break.

So don't go away.

God willing we will be right back after these messages with more of Chris Roseboro on Why

we still need the Protestant Reformation.

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Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

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Reformation.

Why was it necessary and why it's still needed?

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That's also the address that the email address where you could send in a question for Chris Roseboro our guest today on

iron sharpens iron radio.

Chris Roseboro who is the pastor at Kongsvinger Lutheran

Church in Oslo, Minnesota, he's also the founder of pirate Christian radio and

the host of fighting for the faith podcast.

We are discussing the Protestant Reformation why it was necessary and why it's still needed.

Today.

And our email address again is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris before the break.

I read you a question, which I will repeat.

For those for the sake of those especially who just tuned us in the question is I

Am wondering why we do not hear more about Controversy over Mary the mother of Jesus during

the Reformation.

Is this simply because the Roman Catholic dogmas about Mary had not yet progressed or Progressed to the

point they would later in later councils.

Or is it partly because even the Reformers themselves retained some aspects of their former Mariology?

Second and related is the liberalization of the modern Lutheran Church.

Do you notice any kind of resurgence of false doctrine regarding Mary particularly with the

progression of feminism if you could?

Go through those one by one pastor Chris.

Okay.

Focuses on the nation

by grace and so.

Mariology.

The listener that there has been a lot of development

the time of the Reformation.

It where it is Currently is not where it was at the time of the Reformation.

Stuff to it ideas regard.

Um, I'm the quintessential

example is

found at her church

org.

Wow.

That is an interesting phenomenon because in Rome Those who are most focused on

Mariolatry are those that would not be feminists those that would be more

Traditionalists and conservatives and would oppose the ordination of women to the priesthood

and so on but they exaggerate and focus

Much of their attention and devotion to Mary above and beyond perhaps the normal Catholic.

What?

But you have any comments pastor Luke Zimmerman.

Well, I think it's interesting.

I mean kind of reflecting on the on the first part of the question.

Yes I mean there were developments of within Catholic doctrine it's really in the

1800s you get the Immaculate Conception doctrine being

Kind of formalized made official ex cathedra by Pius the ninth.

But I think it's interesting if we would if we look at like some of Luther's writings when he has like a commentary on the

Magnificat or when he preaches On the Annunciation so the so these examples from

from Luke's gospel Luke chapter 1 and and You really can see Mary as an

example of faith as we would others who are mentioned in the scriptures and and I

say there's a few things like this that Really do tie to the Reformation ideas.

The credit being given that her estate has been raised.

Because God did it.

God looked at her low estate and raised her.

The idea that she can say the Annunciation that that let it be done to me according to the Lord's

Word.

Which which of course is is is what all of us all of us in faith need to do.

We want to do it.

So when the Lord's Word declares us to be righteous we want it.

Yes, let that be done according to your work, you know.

When it says that you are my child now, and I've adopted you.

Yes, let that be done as you have said.

And you can see a couple things like in Luther's a commentary on a Magnificat about how

how he speaks of of Mary speaking of what the Lord has done for

her and.

And as and as people of faith that that's what we do and then we also then speak of what the

Lord does for others.

Because because what the Lord has done for us is is yes He has brought us righteousness and and made us

made us as people.

But there's the desire for that to happen not just for us.

But for the others that we encounter that they may also share in it.

And so sometimes if you can look at a few of Luther's either commentary on a Magnificat or some his Annunciation sermons you will

you will see him.

Describing Mary as kind of a paragon of faith and and and that is definitely a good thing to do.

And I think that you said something though.

That's key.

Many Roman Catholics will look at the Magnificat and they will see the

angel recognizing some kind of innate superiority in Mary.

Even though the Catholic Church will say that by grace Mary was preserved from sin in the womb and all that from the moment of conception,

but even though they will say that usually when pressed to say it in a debate they will usually

Just talk about Mary and refer to her as being innately superior to us full of grace and so on.

So I think that you brought up a.

Key, right, which she identifies herself of being of low estate, right?

Of being humble right.

And he and he pulls down those who are who are arrogant, right?

I mean, I mean it does seem to be maybe not always engaging the text itself.

That's found in Luke 1 and in a recent debate that I orchestrated here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Between my friend Robert St. Genes who's a Roman Catholic apologist and my friend. Dr. Tony Costa who I mentioned earlier

From Toronto Baptist Seminary on the immaculate conception and perpetual sinlessness of Mary.

He actually stated and he is my friend, but I do not count him as a brother in Christ and he

knows that.

Robert.

Actually said there could be no salvation without Mary because Mary

Had to give her permission to give birth To the Messiah

and if she did not give her permission Then we would all be lost and have nothing but hell awaiting

us now.

I find that interesting that he would say that you would think that God would have had a plan B if that was the case He would

have another woman immaculately conceived down the road and but isn't that

quite a blasphemous?

Distortion of Levels of Of the involvement in

our salvation is to actually say that that without Mary there is no salvation.

I mean, do you find that as repugnant as I do pastor Chris?

Yeah.

It was a prophecy.

Right.

Yeah, and I think it's just the idea of maybe, you know, it's kind of an understated of human anthropology.

They're kind of a kind of a spiritual anthropology.

I mean, uh, just just what.

What are the You know abilities of? mankind.

Sometimes we have this idea, you know.

We as listeners, of course have the you know, the concept that God's Word works on us and And

and converts the will, you know and and regenerates and I think we would see

that also happening within.

Within our our Lord's mother as well.

Yep, and I also would note that the Holy Spirit knows what he's doing because when he inspired Luke to write the

Nativity story in Luke who

examples of miraculous was Elizabeth the wife of

Zechariah and He was the angel of the same angel appeared to him and he really

wasn't on board with this as far as He was not believing what the angel was gonna say.

And so he was taught a lesson and so you're gonna note that

One did not give his permission yet.

His wife got pregnant.

You know, I I think the Holy Spirit knew that he

would and that's why we have two examples of miraculous Conceptions in the Nativity

stories no way

without Mary.

And Reverend Buzz Taylor has a comment interestingly enough.

It was the other character in Luke 2 that we're told was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb.

That was John, but you know, we we're not looking at a larger question here.

You know if if God of course is the author and finisher for our faith.

We believe that you know, he gave whatever faith Mary had to her just like he has to everybody.

But why if she got a special everybody who's a Christian.

Right.

Right if she is Had some kind of a special faith on her or anything of that sort.

We have to ask the question why.

And we can't overlook the fact that she was just part of a larger picture.

There were two genealogical lines that pointed straight to Mary and Joseph that this had to be the Messiah.

She couldn't have said no.

Right.

No.

That's kind of the idea here and then just real quick I had to take a shot at Robert who I know.

You know, St. Genesis is an interesting fellow, but to claim that Mary was sinless. I think is

that's ridiculous.

I mean one of the gospel writers Explicitly points out that Mary and

Jesus's brothers actually came to collect him on one occasion Thinking that he had lost his mind

and so there's there is a clear example in the Gospels of them.

Not in the one who

was.

That isn't sin that I don't know what is to not trust

bonkers.

When he's doing aired in advance for him to do.

I think that isn't sin that I don't know what is and the irony there is that Roberts last name is the

Greek word that should have been used if the the Holy God breathed scriptures were intending to mean that

Jesus's cousins were with Mary and not his brother's son.

Genesis the Greek word for cousin.

So it's kind of ironic that Roberts last name is that very word.

The we have another listener.

Rose in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Hello pastor captain Roseboro.

Ahoy.

This is probably.

This is probably more of a comment than a question but your conversation with brother arms and regarding disunity

in your Lutheran faith is quite disheartening as Disheartening as it is in so many denominations breaking

away to far -left interpretations of God's Word.

I find that what is urgently needed today is a large dose of discernment in our brothers and sisters in the

Lord.

I for one am grateful for the ministry of fighting for the faith and its heavy emphasis on discernment.

God bless your ministry abundantly.

And she calls herself a fellow shipman.

I guess that's ship woman.

That's Rose in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Well The the thing the thing that I would I don't mean to be

nitpicking about her comment.

But if if someone is breaking away far to the left in Their

interpretations of God Word, I would not identify them as our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Yeah.

Did you go deaf there.

Chris, I'm sorry if I left you.

Didn't want to rock the boat.

He wants to fake it.

So, you know I think we have it back to this idea that conflict for the sake of conflict is actually

spoken against and script for the sake Of conflict are to

actually be marked and avoided.

Whereas those who are actually saying wait a second.

We need to take a close look at what Scripture says here because what that person is saying in the name of

Jesus doesn't Actually jive with what Scripture says.

We need to take a hard look at that.

But unfortunately the Apostle Paul kind of prophesying as to what you know We find

ourselves in in 2nd Timothy chapter 4 says this to young pastor Timothy who was a

he said to him I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus is the

judge the living and the dead and by his appearing in his kingdom preach the word He ready in season

out of season reprove rebuke Exhort with complete patience and doctrine.

The time is coming when people will not endure sound doctrine.

But having ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own

Passion and they will turn away from listening to the truth and they're going to wander off into

myth.

And I would argue that's a lot of what we're seeing today.

I cannot begin to tell you over the 10 years that I've been broadcasting.

How many emails I've received from faithful pastors who preach the word and

Reprove rebuke and exhort who have found themselves rough and

replaced with some skinny jeans wearing.

You know latte drinking the relevant fellow who couldn't exegete his way out of a paper

bag.

If you gave him a you know, a Greek lexicon and a flashlight.

We.

Have the honor of our second Listener in Hawaii in the

history of iron sharpens iron radio sending us a question.

This is only the second believer from Hawaii Gary from South Point

big island of Hawaii.

He says with no reformational churches in my area Lutheran or Calvinistic.

What would you suggest I give to local pastors of Baptists and charismatic churches?

To help them understand the importance of the Reformation doctrines of the five solos and the doctrines of grace.

And I'll have you answer that Chris when we return from our final break, it'll be a much

briefer break and If anybody else wants to join those who are already waiting in line with a

question I urge you to do it quickly because we're running out of time very rapidly.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

God willing right after these messages with Chris.

Rose, bro.

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pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back and you are actually.

Experiencing a joke in the making.

Because we have two Lutherans a Baptist and a Presbyterian here and there's gonna be some joke in there

somewhere.

But we are discussing a very important topic today the Protestant Reformation why it was necessary and why

it's still needed.

With Chris Roseboro a confessional Lutheran and pastor of cons vinger Lutheran Church of Oslo, Minnesota who runs

pirate Christian radio and hosts fighting for the faith.

And Also in studio with me is a pastor Luke T Zimmerman of Calvary

Evangelical Lutheran Church in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania which is a member of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod and

Also, my regular co -host Reverend Buzz Taylor is in studio.

If you intend to send in a question do it now because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And Before the break I read you a question pastor Chris from Gary in

South Point Big Island, Hawaii.

With no reformational churches in my area Lutheran or Calvinistic What would you suggest I give to local pastors of

Baptist and charismatic churches?

To help them understand the importance of the Reformation doctrines of the five solas and the doctrines of grace.

Do you have any?

Answer that you'd like to give a Gary.

Yeah.

In

fact,

he's gonna

be

my guest

very soon discussing

that

book.

Well,

I'm

gonna

give

you

a heads up

Gary

in

Hawaii.

On October 4th, which is a Wednesday from 4 to 6 p .m Eastern Time Brian Wolf

Mueller will be my guest and we are giving away free copies of his book to a limited number

of Audience members who submit questions during that live interview.

So send in a question that day To Brian Wolf Mueller and you will receive a free copy of his book.

So mark that on your calendar and I would like to add to those suggestions

The website of one of my sponsors solid ground Christian books.

Their website is solid ground books calm.

Solid dash ground dash books calm.

They have a lot of material that would cover the areas that you want to share with your

Baptist and charismatic friends.

And including in that a huge assortment that they have.

They have two booklets that these are the kinds of booklets that are inexpensive enough that you could order them in bulk.

And it wouldn't hurt your bank account too much.

And it's also short enough that people might actually read it when you're giving it to them.

The first is remembering Luther's fight a primer on Martin Luther's life and legacy and standing for

the gospel by Kurt M Smith and also the five solos

standing together alone by John Sampson both Publications of solid

ground Christian books so you could go to solid ground books calm.

Solid dash ground dash books calm and another book that you could get from Amazon.

Is why we're Protestant by Nate Pickowitz an introduction to the five souls of the

Reformation?

Why we're Protestant by Nate Pickowitz that spelt p i c k o w i c z.

He's a fellow Pole just like I am or at least half of me is Polish.

And so that's my recommendations pastor Luke.

Do you have anything to add to that?

No, I think the approach that pastor Chris had was was correct.

It needs to be approached in that kind of a conversational

Aspect.

We're trying to win people and make them think.

So that they maybe they themselves have that spark, you know.

It's like, you know, it's always what we had this idea of kind of just kind of questioning ourselves and.

And it can work.

As as the spirit leads us.

To understand it.

So I should stop tying tracks to bricks and throwing them through windows.

Yeah, I would say attach it to styrofoam.

Make sure they're Baptist tracks.

Well, that's what I am a reform Baptist I do need to add that I Want you

pastor Chris before we run out of time to make sure that you have laid out Everything that you primarily want to

focus on in the in regard to the need For a reformation in the 21st century before we run out of

time.

Yeah, I think the

direction that I think we need to talk about we've talked about liberalism.

We've and

Roman Catholicism at the time of Martin Luther was not liberal.

It was quite wrong thing and.

And that there are false doctrines that are permeating conservative evangelical churches

today that are having a terrible and I mean just devastating impact on.

On sound doctrine and people actually right and I think

one of the major problems that we have is that people?

Commission to go and make disciples of all nations.

They've changed it with to go and make a difference and they are teaching this

false doctrine that I call the dream destiny thingy doctrine and and.

Literally, they kind of canonized the and turned it into something like this

God has created you for a dream destiny and this is supposedly the good news, you know.

And I think

now are you saying

it dream

destiny?

Th ing why or s isn't Sam ing why?

Th ing.

Okay thing.

Yeah.

Well, it

sounds like it's

very reflective

of

something

we

were

talking

about

earlier the

heresy of self

-esteem.

Where people are told and that this is a big thing when you have Public

appeals To children that they can do anything they want to do

if they are determined enough to do it.

No, that's a lie.

No, you can't.

I think that's one of the reason.

That's one of the reasons that we have so many horrible singers and musicians in the church today, it's because

they.

But but we can't do everything that we want to do.

Think of a lot of things I

wanted to do with it that God in his mercy has kept me from

goodness.

The whole reason I wanted to do that is because I'm so utterly sinful.

It looks like unfortunately what ended up happening, you know in the in the

churches that were they scratch -itching years dream destiny.

I'm not making this up either that you find

in the Barbie movie and I've ever watched it but but it's this

you've got to follow your heart and make a difference in and all this kind of nonsense and.

You know.

This is what people what kids are fed on you know on a steady diet of the Disney Channel and things like this.

And so what ended up happening is is that evangelical conservative evangelical churches have

Institutionalized this, you know, just follow your heart learn your destiny go make a dim

kumbaya and be happy at the end of it.

That's that's not what Christianity is about and this doctrine has nothing to do with the biblical doctrine of

good works and it like I said, it's absolutely.

Devastating.

Conservative evangelicalism right now.

You mean Jiminy Cricket was wrong when he said always let your conscience be your guide.

Would would you say yeah.

Would you say that what you're talking about is something that we would see as being an emphasis of somebody like Joel

Osteen or.

Would you care to mention any primary figures?

That are polluting the airwaves either through television or radio or the Internet.

Yes,

so

does.

Rick.

Of the guy.

Down

and

open to repent of your sins

repentance with.

Not at all what scripture says or teaches.

Amen.

And We have a listener Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania That says don't you believe that

we who are from? reformationally faithful churches have to look in the mirror also more

often and prayerfully.

Attempt a prevention of idolatry in our own lives where we so I dollar

so I Dollar a dollar chart.

I can't even spell the word or pronounce the word he's used here that we so are guilty of idolatry.

In regard to our reformational heroes that we forget the reformational principle of sola

scriptura.

Okay, that that's that's an interesting question and I can think of some fellows that I've run into

like

the

rare

and.

We have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

Who says how can we balance our lives while being firm on the truths of Scripture without falling

into?

Pharisaic sectarianism and pride.

Okay.

By the way, Chris,

you're very very

muffled right now.

Chris, can

you

hear

me?

Chris, can you hear me?

Chris, I'm sorry.

Can you hear me Chris?

Could you repeat the last 30 seconds of what you said because you were very muffled.

I don't know if what you did that was different, but you were very muffled and you were almost inaudible.

Okay, just to repeat like the last 30 seconds of what you said.

Yes, because I could not understand what you were saying, okay.

Yes, and there is some truth in the implications of the question though that people who have come

to a sound understanding of the Bible somehow forget the very principles of the teachings of grace.

Involve that everything that benefits our lives every good thing that we receive including sound

doctrine is a gift of God by his grace and mercy and we somehow forget that and we think that we

intrinsically are superior to other people and that because of our wisdom and our brilliance that we have

learned and gleaned and and Believed these things and don't we have to be knocked down a

few pegs to prevent ourselves From this haughtiness that that we can be guilty of.

Yeah, now that's true.

Well, I

want to

make

sure

that our

listeners

have all of

the important contact information for all of you folks.

We have Kongsvinger church .org.

That's k -o -n -g -s -v -i -n -g -e -r Church .org that's for the Kongsvinger Lutheran

Church of Oslo, Minnesota.

Where our guest Chris Roseboro is pastor also pirate Christian radio can be found at pirate

Christian calm pirate Christian calm and more.

And you can also find the fighting for the faith podcast at that website.

And The Calvary Lutheran Church of Mechanics Berg Calvary Evangelical Lutheran Church of

this mechanics bird to be more specific.

Which is a member of the Missouri Church?

Synod Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod that website is Calvary Lutheran Lutheran

Mechanics Berg org.

Calvary Lutheran Mechanics Berg, which is spelt me ch a n i c s b u

r g org.

Pastor Chris, do you have any other contact information information that you care to share?

And pastor Luke Zimmerman.

That's 100 % correct, well, I want to thank the both of you for being on the program today.

I look forward to you both returning to the the iron trip ins iron program.

I want to thank the Reverend buzz Taylor for being in the studio as another co -host today.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write in and I hope that you all always remember

for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater Savior.

Than you are a sinner.

I look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.