Predestination (Part 1)

Moore's Corner Church

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Predestination & Election (Part 2)

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So tonight we're going to be looking at the subject of predestination, and the word predestination simply means to determine beforehand.

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So if you're familiar with this subject, what I found is that people either love it or they hate it, or some people love to hate it, right?

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Sometimes you'll run across someone, they'll say, well, you know, I don't believe in that predestination stuff.

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Well, it's in the Bible, it's a biblical word, it is a biblical teaching, so if you're a

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Christian who believes the Bible, you have to believe in predestination. Now the issue, though, is how do you define that?

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What is the biblical doctrine of predestination? Because there are a variety of different viewpoints.

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Every church that I know of, at least historically, every denomination in history has formulated some sort of doctrine of predestination.

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So let's turn to Ephesians chapter 1. Don't be one of those people who say

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I don't believe in the predestination stuff, okay? But what does it mean? We'll read this passage from Ephesians 1.

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I'll go over the six verses in the New Testament that mention predestination.

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They're listed here on the screen. I'll go over a article from the website, gotquestions .org.

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We'll discuss how predestination relates to the doctrine of election, because in a lot of people's mind, election and predestination, it's the same thing.

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Well, not exactly, they're very close, but. And we'll talk about choosing.

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Election, right, means to choose. Who does God choose? Why does he choose them? What does he choose some people for?

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So we'll look at all of this. And I do have a few ground rules.

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Number one, you're not allowed to say, hey, Mike, what's your position on predestination? At least at first, don't ask me that, okay?

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I want to try to present this as neutrally as I can, and just kind of give you what the

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Bible says. So by the end of it, you'll know where I stand, but don't ask that question upfront, okay?

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So I think this is one of the most difficult subjects to deal with in all of the

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Bible. This is definitely the meat of the word right here. It's one of the most complicated, and this is why

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I think a lot of people don't like it, is because it, yeah, it makes their brain hurt, right?

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It's just hard to understand, and I get it. So we'll go through all of that, the article and the words and what it means, and then

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I'll try to end with an application. Why does this matter? Because in some people's mind, this is one of those subjects, it makes for a good classroom debate.

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People can argue about it and debate it, but really, it has a real impact in the way you live your

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Christian life. If you really understand predestination, you'll see what a blessing it is and how it can have a real impact in the way you view

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God and your relationship with God. So let's start reading Ephesians 1.

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For context, I'll read the verses before and after, because the word predestined is mentioned in verses 5 and 11, so I'm just gonna read verses 3 through 14.

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So Ephesians 1, 3 through 14. The apostle Paul writes, Blessed be the

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God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him, in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will and to the praise of the glory of his grace, by which he made us accepted in the beloved.

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In him, we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in him.

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In him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of his glory.

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In him, you also trusted after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having believed, you were sealed with the

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Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of his glory.

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Okay, so now let's turn to Romans chapter eight. That's the first longer segment of scripture we're gonna look at, and now we're gonna look at Romans eight.

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But hopefully you saw that the word predestination was mentioned how many times in that passage?

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Okay, twice. And you also saw this concept of election, where God chose a people, or he chose us from the foundation of the world.

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So depending on your Bible translation, the word predestined, predestinate, it's found six times in the

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New Testament. Okay, all by the apostle Paul. So six times. But you know, it's not always translated.

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The Greek word is not always translated as predestined. The Greek word is praorizo, and it's translated either predestined, ordained, or determined, right?

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So you think of the word ordained, like foreordained, predestination, basically saying the same thing, or God determined something.

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So predestination is God determining something ahead of time. Okay, so we saw those two verses in Ephesians one, mentioned in five and six, and now it's gonna be two more times in Romans eight, verses 29 through 30.

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Now, is there anything that you wanna, any questions up until this point? Cause I want you to have some understanding of what we're talking about going in.

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So if you have any like basic questions up front, go ahead and raise your hand. Okay, so, and if you have any questions going through, just raise your hand and I'll try to answer it if I can.

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All right, Romans eight, starting in verse 28 through the rest of the chapter. Once again, including context to try to help us understand.

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Romans eight, 28 says, "'And we know that all things work together for good "'to those who love

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God, "'to those who are the called according to his purpose. "'For whom he foreknew, he also," what?

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Predestined. Predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

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Moreover, whom he predestined, these he also called, whom he called, these he also justified.

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In whom he justified, these he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things?

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If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own son, but delivered him up for us all.

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How shall he not with him also freely give us all things? And who shall bring a charge against God's elect?

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It is God who justifies. And I would point out in verse 33,

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God's elect refers to Christians, okay? So Christians are

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God's elect, God's chosen. In the Old Testament, who is God's chosen in the

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Old Testament scriptures? Who is Israel? They were a chosen people, Israel as a man, Jacob as the man, he was chosen, he was called

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God's elect. But in the New Testament, very important to understand this, Christians are the ones who are elect, okay?

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Verse 34, who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

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Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword as it is written, for your sake, we are killed all day long.

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We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Yet in all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

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For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height or depth or any other created things shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our

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Lord. So not everybody likes the idea of predestination, but I've never met a person who doesn't love

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Romans chapter eight. Because what's it saying? Nothing in all of creation can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

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Everyone loves that, but you know why that's possible or why that's true? It's because of predestination, okay?

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So I'm gonna try to explain that in the half hour, however long we have.

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So in this passage, predestination is mentioned in verse 29 and verse 30.

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And that is the basis for why nothing can separate us from the love of God.

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Why is that? Because the elect, God's people, Christians have been predestined. So it's already been determined beforehand.

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Something has been determined. And because of that something, we shall never be separated from the love of God.

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So already you're starting to see hopefully that predestination is really a wonderful thing.

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Now, why do you think people object to it so much? Because they're not chosen. Okay, well,

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I mean, that would be a reason, I guess. If you're not chosen, if you're not elect, you wouldn't like this. Ha, ha, ha.

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Yes, Erin. Aren't there people that think that it cancels out free will? Yeah, and that's one of the things.

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There's like two sides to this typically. There's Calvinism and Arminianism.

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The Calvinists emphasize the sovereignty of God and election, and the

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Arminians, I mean, they would say they believe in election, but they're more free will. So one side is more free will.

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The other side more emphasizes the sovereignty of God. So what people, yeah, what they hear in predestination is it's

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God violating people's free will. The people don't have a choice that God made the choice for them, right?

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That's one reason why people object. So I think some people don't like predestination because they're objecting to a certain form of it or a certain doctrine of it.

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But not everybody sees predestination the same way. Okay, any other comments on that,

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Ray? Well, some people say that I'm predestined. I don't have to do anything.

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I can just sit back and - Right. Yeah. Whether I march or take a nap.

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Yeah, and this is how a lot of people think of predestination and election, that God's already chosen who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, so what difference does it make?

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I can just sit back and relax because what's gonna be is what's gonna be, okay? I don't know if anyone really lives that way, but that would be one common objection if predestination means that God chooses some for heaven and some for hell.

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Some people believe that. Not everyone believes that. My purpose in this class is to stick to what the

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Bible says. I can speculate all day long and start making logical leaps and then end up in a certain place, but I'm gonna try to stick to what the scripture says.

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Okay, so who are the elect? This term's gonna come up. It's come up once. It's gonna come up again.

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The elect are who? Christians. Okay, so if you're saved, you are one of God's elect if you're saved, okay?

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And there are a lot of people in the world who are not saved, but they're gonna be saved at a certain point.

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They are also God's elect. If somebody is lost and they die lost, are they one of God's elect?

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No, okay. I think everybody would agree with that. Again, they might not like how that sounds and where that could end up, but I think everyone would have to agree with that premise.

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Janet. The church that my brother went to, I forgot what the name of it is, but he believed that you could lose your salvation and then get it back again when you confess.

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I asked him when he said that, well, what do you have to do to get your salvation back because Christ died once for all and he just didn't have a complete answer.

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Right, yeah, so there's people, we know this, there's Christians who believe that you can lose your salvation, people that believe you can't lose your salvation.

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And typically, this is the way it breaks down. And you don't actually have to fit into one of these two categories, but people who are

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Arminian or emphasize free will, yes, they believe you can lose your salvation.

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People who emphasize the sovereignty of God or who are Calvinist, they do not believe you can lose your salvation.

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But there are people who say you can't lose it, but they don't identify as Calvinist. So there's all sorts of people in between.

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Okay, Larry. If you were to say I can lose my salvation, aren't you claiming then that God is not omnipotent?

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Because based on Ephesians 1, 14, where it says, talking of the

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Holy Spirit in verse 13, said that he is the guarantee of our inheritance.

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And if God's got us, who's gonna try to stand up?

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Yeah, now, I don't want this to turn into a whole thing about can you or can you not lose your salvation, because we can end up talking about that without necessarily looking at the predestination passages.

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However, I think it's good that you're recognizing the connection, because there is a connection.

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So that's good. So the elect are people who believe in Christ. Okay, so this gets into the subject of election.

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Yeah, one more. And it also says that when we are saved, we're adopted into the family of God. So that makes us part of his family, as if we were born into it.

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Right, okay, very good. All right, so the doctrine of election. What is election?

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Well, elect means to what? To choose, right.

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So every four years, for example, every four years in this country, we have a presidential election, where the citizens of this nation choose who will be the next president.

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No jokes, okay. Okay, but. Some don't have faith in our elections anymore, and some people don't like God's version of election either.

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Okay, they think that election, God choosing, it's not fair. Right, predestination,

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God making the decisions, that's not fair. I mean, we're Americans, we believe in democracy.

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We should be able to vote on this. It's not fair for God to make all the decisions. I think that's part of it.

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But this idea is objectionable to people, because yeah, they think it violates the concept of free will and man having a choice.

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Now, does it? Some versions of predestination, if it's taken too far, maybe it does.

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But the biblical doctrine of predestination does not violate the will of man.

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I would argue that man doesn't actually have a free will in the sense that we're completely free as in neutral, because we're born into this world as sinners.

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So we're not neutral, we have a bent towards sin. So our nature isn't completely free.

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Matter of fact, in the book of Romans, the apostle Paul says that unregenerate man is a slave to sin, and slaves are not free.

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But there is freedom in Christ. But as far as election go, this is

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God's choosing. And some say that God chooses some people for heaven. Others say that God is choosing people for service.

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Some people say that God makes his choice based on something in the person. Others will say that no,

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God's choice is based on his own sovereign will, for his own reasons.

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So Ephesians 1 says that God chose his elect from the foundation of the world, and then predestined them.

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Do you see that? Well, you're not in Ephesians 1, I guess, right now. But in verse four,

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God chose the elect, and then verse five, he predestined them. So are election and predestination the same thing?

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They're not the same thing. I would say they're very closely connected. They're like opposite sides of the same coin, maybe, because God chooses, and then he predestines those whom he chose.

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So there is a distinction, but it's not exactly the same thing. Okay, so like I said, there's all sorts of views, and I could get into all of the different views, but that's not my intention here.

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My goal is to study this and just show you what the scripture teaches.

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But again, some will say election is unto salvation. Some say it's not. Others will say it's based on God's foreknowledge.

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I think this is the most common view that I've run across. They say God's election is based on his foreknowledge.

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And in that passage, Romans 8, 29 and 30, it says, for whom

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God foreknew, he also did what? Predestinate. So he foreknew people, and then he predestined those whom he foreknew.

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What does foreknowledge mean? See, this is one of the problems. Not everyone agrees what foreknowledge is.

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Some people say foreknowledge is what, and this is what it sounds like, that God knows things ahead of time.

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He knows them beforehand. Yeah, now.

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He doesn't know it ahead of time, he just knows it. Yeah, well, I mean, I would say that's God's omniscience. He knows the end from the beginning.

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Does God know things ahead of time? Of course, I mean, nobody would deny that. Others will say that's not really what foreknowledge is.

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Foreknowledge is a predetermined relationship. So Adam, for example,

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Adam knew his wife, and they conceived a child. So when it says he knew her, you know, that's a euphemism, right?

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But they had a relationship together. Jesus says in Matthew 7, you know, there's gonna be people on that day who

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I say to them, depart from me, I never, what? Knew you, that means I did not have a relationship with you.

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So the idea is foreknowledge, and I did look this up, and based on my research, this is what it means.

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Again, there'll be people that reject that, but based on my study, foreknowledge means that God chose them and has a predetermined relationship with his people from eternity past.

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Okay, but others would say, no, no, no, that's not true. God just knows who's gonna believe in Jesus, and based on his knowledge that they're gonna believe, he elects them, so it's not really based on God's choice, it's based on their choice, right?

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Okay, this is somewhat familiar for most of you. Does anyone, your brain hurt yet? Okay, and so yeah, this is the debate, free will of man, sovereignty of God.

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Does man have a will? Yes, does God have a will? Whose will is more free?

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God's will or man's will? I would say God's will is more free, so take that for what it's worth.

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This is one of the big issues, though. The human mind cannot reconcile the idea of a sovereign

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God who knows things ahead of time, makes decrees, foreordination, then man has a choice, and we really can make decisions, like the two seem to be at odds with one another, right?

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But I don't think they are. Okay, the other two verses, we saw Ephesians 1, 5 and 11, then

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Romans 8, 29 and 30. The next verse that mentions predestination, or at least the

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Greek word, is Acts 4 .28. Acts 4 .28

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says, of course, I'm reading it without the context, to do whatever your hand and your purpose determine to be done.

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Can someone look that up just to get the context? And then, as you're looking it up, who's my volunteer to read that?

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Okay, Erin's gonna read it, and then - How far back do you want me to go? Just a verse or two. Why did the nations rage and the people plot vain things?

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The kings of the earth took their stand and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against his Christ. For truly, against your holy servant

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Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate and the Gentiles and the people of Israel were gathered together to do whatever your hand and your purpose determined before to be done.

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Now, Lord, look on their threats and grant to your servants that with all boldness they may speak your word.

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Okay, good. So it's talking about the crucifixion of Christ. The rulers came together and they crucified

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Jesus. Was that their choice? Did they make that decision? Yes. Was it an evil decision that they made?

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Yeah, but at the same time, they were fulfilling the will of God, and really they were doing whatever

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God's hand and God's purpose predestined ahead of time that that would happen.

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So the death of Jesus on the cross was predestined. Okay. So Jesus was predestined to die on the cross.

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We see that. And that's what Acts 4 .28 says. And then 1 Corinthians 2 .7,

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Paul says, "'But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, "'the hidden wisdom which

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God ordained "'before the ages for our glory.'" So those verses, along with the ones from Ephesians 1 and Romans 8, if you look at the context in all of these verses, it's either talking about Christ dying on the cross, or it's talking about people who are in Christ.

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You know, it's talking about matters concerning salvation and the gospel. I don't think you can deny that.

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Isn't that what Ephesians 1 was talking about? And Romans 8, yep. So let's go over this article from the website gotquestions .org.

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It says Romans 8 .29 and 30 tells us, "'For those God foreknew, "'he also predestined to be conformed "'to the likeness of his son.'"

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So we do have to say there is no verse that says God predestined who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

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There is no verse that comes out and says something like that. That's true. So what did he predestine man unto, or believers unto?

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"'To be conformed to the image of Christ, "'that he might be, that is

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Christ, "'might be the firstborn among many brethren. "'And those whom he predestined, "'he also called, those he called, "'he also justified, those he justified, "'he also glorified.'"

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And then Ephesians 1, 5 and 11, he declared he predestined us, and who's the us?

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He's writing to the church at Ephesus, so the us refers to Christians. God predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ.

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Okay, and that ties in with salvation. As Janet was saying, we're adopted into the family. We are now children of God.

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We are saved, we would say. And as a result of that choice,

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God predestined us according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will or our will?

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His will, okay. The article says, many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination.

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However, predestination is a biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means biblically.

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The word translated predestined in scripture referenced above are from the

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Greek word poridzo, which carries the meaning of determining beforehand or ordaining, deciding ahead of time.

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So predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time.

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Now, this is another thing you'll hear people say, God has predestined everything.

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So if you trip and you fall down the stairs, well, you know, God predestined that. Thank God that's over because that was predestined from the foundation of the world.

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And I think when people say that, they're sort of making a joke out of it or maybe they're mocking the idea of predestination.

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But biblically, that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about God determining every little thing that happens in the history of the world.

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Predestination is used in the context of what? Salvation, Christ and people that are in Christ.

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The article says, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of his son, be called and justified and glorified.

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Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen. And then it gives a big, long list.

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And you know, people are chosen for different things, right? The apostles were chosen to follow

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Christ, et cetera, et cetera. Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in his sovereignty, excuse me, in his sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

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Okay, so now we're really getting into it. This is what the article gotquestions .org says.

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Let me read it again. Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in his sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

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Okay, so that's what they say. Predestination is an explicitly biblical doctrine.

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Yet the determination of predestination is not disconnected from the rest of God's unchanging character.

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It is connected to his foreknowledge, his love and his plan and pleasure.

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God's desire is that all would be saved and come to repentance or come to the knowledge of the truth.

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Predestination is personal and relational, not capricious.

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So what are they saying? That God isn't up there, you know, the flower analogy, the, is it the daisy, the picking off?

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You know, he loves me, he loves me not. You know, this one I'm gonna save, this one I'm not, this one I'm gonna save, this one

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I'm not. And it's just arbitrary. And God is just saving like whoever for no good reason. So that would be,

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I think, a straw man view of predestination. Any questions now, now that you've kind of heard where this website is taking a stand?

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Yes. Okay, I'm not arguing, I just, I don't understand how that reconciles with second

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Peter three, give me a minute. Three, nine. Yeah, three, nine.

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Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so this is where I'm gonna kind of take up the other side, okay?

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As of right now, you don't know where I stand. Well, maybe a couple of you do, but I'm not taking a stand.

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I read to you what the website said. And Aaron asked the question. Okay, got question says that God is predestining people.

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Basically, he's choosing who's gonna be saved and who isn't. And the objection, or the question, at least, is that second

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Peter three, nine, that God is not willing that any should perish. So isn't that a contradiction?

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So some people would say that, yeah, God is long -suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

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See, that proves predestination is not true. Yes, not what I'm asking. Okay, but I'm saying that is what some people would say.

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I take a position when I don't understand something that it's me that's missing a piece, not that it's a wrong argument.

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Yeah, right. Okay, but that's what some people would say. Here would be the response.

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Okay, so let's look at that verse. Second Peter, I just wanna deal with it because I don't wanna miss anything.

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Second Peter, chapter three, verse nine. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long -suffering toward us.

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Okay, who's the us? Christians. Yeah, who's Peter writing to? Christians.

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God is long -suffering toward Christians, not willing that any should perish.

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Who's the any? Christians. So the argument would be, because he's talking about the return of Christ.

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It's been all these years and there's gonna be mockers who say, where is the promise of His coming? So the idea is that if Jesus came back in 1970 and you got saved in 1974, what would that mean?

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You perish, right? That the Lord is not slack. He is going to come back once all of the elect are saved.

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Then He will return because He's not willing that any of His people shall perish. That would be the response.

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But other people say, no, no, no. He's not willing that anyone on earth should perish, but yet some do perish, right?

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So that's a common response to this. Did you have a hand up? I was just gonna say, why are people upset about predestination?

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Once you mutilate it and pull it away. Right. Who doesn't know

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Christ and you have no idea if she's picked her up. Right. Yeah, so if you are chosen, you would be thankful that I'm saved and thank

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God for that. But I think the argument is, well, yeah, but my loved one is not saved and that must be because God didn't choose them.

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And that just, that's not fair. I mean, that's the argument. It's not fair. Life's not fair.

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Yeah, yeah. And that's true, life is not fair. But these are the two sides.

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And I do wanna say the Calvinist, the Arminian side, free will, sovereignty of God, no matter which position a person takes,

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I think it's within the bounds of orthodoxy. In other words, if somebody has a different view of election and predestination, we wouldn't say that they're not saved, they're a false teacher or something like that.

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This is a subject that people, I think, can disagree on. So the Calvinists are not heretics.

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The Arminians are not heretics. People who have, the only view that would be completely unacceptable if you just like rejected election and predestination completely.

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If you're wrong about it, let's face it, a lot of people are wrong. Probably most people are wrong.

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And who's wrong depends on who you ask. Well, not really. It depends on who, what God says.

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But okay, so but we're getting into some of the debates. And that's okay, because I can take kind of both sides of the argument.

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Any other objections or questions or comments? Well, so people cannot like the idea of predestination, but isn't like the whole notion behind it explained by Jesus himself in the parable of the weak and the tares?

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Because he says that in that parable, that the good seed, or he who sows the good seed is the son of man.

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The field is the world, the good seeds are the son of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

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So you just, I don't know if I'm completely. Yeah, well, it's not an argument that I'm used to addressing with all this.

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But the idea is that the Lord is the one sowing the good seed.

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So it's not dependent on the soil, it's dependent on the good seed.

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Okay, I'd have to think through that a little bit. Well, he says in it too that, so he says the kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in this field.

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But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares on the wheat and went his way.

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So then like the idea is that. Right. Yeah, there.

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Right, and similar to that is the parable of the sower. And some falls along the wayside.

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There's really only one ground, one soil that produces fruit.

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And obviously that's what the goal is to produce fruit. But these are some good questions.

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Let's look at John chapter six. I'm not gonna be able to get through this in one lesson.

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So for some of you, sorry, you're gonna have to deal with predestination next Wednesday. Others are salivating over that,

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I'm sure. So, but yeah, I mean, this can be kind of an emotional thing for some people.

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I mean, if you really look at it that way, that God chose one person and not someone else, some people just can't get beyond that.

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Because that's the argument. God is not fair. But the people who say that, they don't really think that God isn't fair.

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They just think this view of predestination is wrong, right? Anyone who says that God is not fair, what?

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Yeah, you're the one who's wrong. Because you wanna be very careful. This is sort of unrelated, but I just remember that this would come up years ago when we would talk about in Sunday school, the conquest of the land of Canaan.

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And I covered this on my radio show today in first Samuel 15, where God told

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Saul and the Israelites to go in, wipe out the Amalekites, kill all of them, including the women and the children and all of the livestock.

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And the response some people have is, what kind of God? Actually, I talked to someone this week who said that.

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What kind of God and the way they framed it is what kind of monster of a

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God would do that? And I'm not sure if they realize what they're saying or not because that's, well, what kind of God would do that?

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Well, the only God that there is, because he did do that. And that's what the scripture says. So with this predestination argument,

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I realized people aren't saying that about God, that he is a monster, but if I've heard it once,

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I've heard it a thousand times. They say that the doctrine of predestination makes God out to be a monster.

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And I'm just thinking, if you're wrong, just be very careful with your words because if that view of predestination were true, that's quite an accusation to make against the

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God of you. So we should sort of temper our comments, but emotions kind of flare sometimes when we're talking about this.

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All right, I told you to turn to John chapter six, right? So John 6, 44, because why would

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God choose some and not others? Well, look at John 6, 44.

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Jesus says, no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.

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So one view of predestination is this, that God has created mankind.

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Man sinned in the garden. The earth is under a curse. All people are born with original sin.

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So mankind is spiritually dead and man will never seek out God because of his sinful inclination.

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And notice what Jesus says, no one, what? No one may come to me?

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But he says, no one can come to me. So it seems to say that nobody has the ability to come to Christ unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.

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So the idea is that all of humanity is stiff neck in their rebellion against God and God is going to deal with that someday, but out of his grace, he chose to save some.

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He chose to elect a special people for his own namesake. So mankind did make a choice.

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Man has made the choice to reject God. He's going to make that choice, but God steps in, and he intervenes, and he draws people to himself.

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He elects them, and then through the Holy Spirit, they are irresistibly, it's called irresistible grace that God calls them and all whom he calls will come.

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So that's one point of view. And then the other point of view jumps to John 12 where Jesus says, and if the son of man be lifted up, what?

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I will draw all men unto myself. So they say, see, God actually is drawing everybody.

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Now, which view is correct? Well, again, people disagree.

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Does man have the, this is really what it boils down to. Does man have the ability? We'll end with this.

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Does man have the ability to choose God? Let's start with this.

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On your own, just you and yourself, you, yourself, and I, do you have the ability to choose

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God on your own? Absolutely not, you do not have the ability. With God's grace, do you have the ability to choose

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God? Yes, you do. Now, the question is, does God choose you and give you grace, and your will cooperates with that choosing and grace?

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And between you and God, you put your faith in him. And it's kind of a cooperative effort.

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God does his part, you respond, do your part, and you're saved. That's sort of the

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Arminian view. That's one viewpoint. The other viewpoint says that God, you know, you aren't interested, and when

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God gives you grace, what that grace is, he actually gives you faith. He actually changes your heart to where the only reason you believe is because God gave you the faith.

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And that's the Calvinist view, and that's two opposite viewpoints.

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So, all right, I probably, I got off course, and I probably did more to confuse you than to resolve this.

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But next week, we're gonna do part two, and I'm gonna stick to what's here. It's really, you know, it's your questions that got me sidetracked, so.

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Oh, that's terrible. Yeah, well, see,

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I knew there'd be some joke like that. Yeah, okay, so next week, we'll look at part two, and we'll try to bring some clarity to the subject of predestination.