August 22, 2017 Show with John Price on “Exclusive A Cappella Worship Defended (Part #1 of 3: Theology)”

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of

humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at

ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday

on this 22nd day of August 2017.

I hope you enjoyed that acapella music because that is what we are going to be discussing

today actually.

We're going to be discussing exclusive acapella worship defended and this is

going to be taking place with someone I've been trying to get on Iron Sharpens Iron radio for years

and I finally now have the opportunity for the first time to do so.

His name is John Price.

He is pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Rochester, New York and he's the author of Old Light

on New Worship, Musical Instruments and the Worship of God, a

theological, historical and psychological study and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the

very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron radio, John Price.

Thank you very much Chris.

It's good to be with you and glad to speak with you.

Yes and this is a very divisive topic obviously.

This is a topic that not specifically acapella music in the church or exclusive

acapella music in the church but music in general as you know probably

divides more Christians than any other issue that we can think of even doctrinal or theological issues

outside of worship and I am excited about this

subject because you have written I think the best work available that I have

ever seen anyway on the issue of a defense of exclusive

acapella worship in the church today.

But before we go into the subject at hand, I want to first have our

listeners hear something about Grace Baptist Church of Rochester, New York where you serve as pastor.

Well my wife and I after I received training to be a

movement and we began

back in 1995, 22 years ago, very

gracious to us

Christ and to follow his

word and a delight

for me to be their pastor.

That's grace with

us.

Amen.

And describe

the church a little bit

about.

Its theology.

I know that you happen to be a Reformed Baptist Church just as the congregation where I'm a

member, Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Tell us a little bit.

More about that.

Yes, we are what you would call a Reformed Baptist Church.

We hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

Yes, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, also known as the Second London Confession,

nearly identical to the Westminster Confession that the conservative Presbyterians adhere to

and very much in common with the Three Forms of Unity and the Savoy Declaration with

the difference that it is a Baptist Confession and would

teach as we believe that Scripture teaches that churches

are autonomous in their government.

There is no hierarchical structure outside the local congregation nor higher

than the local elders other than Christ himself.

Would that be.

Correct as far as a description of your church?

That would be true and that point is important in regard to what we're speaking of

here today because when we did come to the view that we should no longer

have any instruments, that was back in 2003, we

were able to make that what we saw as the will of Christ for

us.

We did not have to.

Yes, and of course the other key distinction between Reformed Baptists and the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith would be that obviously baptism

is viewed differently and even the covenant in certain areas would be

viewed differently where the Reformed Baptists believe in baptism by

immersion in water of a professing believer, a professing repentant believer,

and those who are truly regenerate being in the covenant.

Whereas many of the Paedo -Baptists, if not most of the Paedo -Baptists, are those who baptize infants,

believe that one is truly a member of the covenant upon their baptism

as an infant, whether they have, even as an older child, whether they have faith or not,

but being a true member of the covenant does not necessitate

that you are a member of the elect or what -have -you, but that's a subject for a different day and a different time.

And before we get into the subject at hand, exclusive a cappella worship

offended, tell us about your own upbringing, the religion of your youth, and what providential

circumstances the Lord brought about in your life that drew you.

To himself and saved you.

Well, I think I should begin

with

Albany, New York, where I grew

up.

The thing I remember, and she taught

us, that

in later years my family

stopped going to church, and my own life went

after high school, I joined the Navy, I was in the Navy for four years, and

then I went to college.

When I was

twenty -five years old,

I knew that God was dealing with me, and I

needed to, I needed to begin, on that

night began to read in 1 John

chapter 1 and 2,

and I

didn't, I

had, I had seen

twenty years,

pride of life

is not in some

way the holiest of working

as

a summer student, and I went

to me every

night, I

just, and

then

I went to eat,

they sang at 51.

I did not

have a

clue,

it was,

continued to read

the Bible, I

kept her one,

and then I, I continued, you

have been bought with it, and I knew what that was,

the beginning of my peace, and my joy.

And how

did you know that,

how did you know that the.

Lord had put a call upon your life to become a minister, and what led you

specifically into Reformed Baptist theology, and to a Reformed Baptist church?

Well, I, I had a good friend.

In college who had become a Christian, and the two of us went looking for church to attend,

you know, we knew we should be in a church, and we wandered around not

preaching the word,

and

preached

God to me

that I

didn't have to unwind, like

so many others have.

So that was what led me into the Reformed Baptist church, and as a young Christian, I

began to have desire,

I spent

four years

there.

And I'm assuming

that since

you

said that

you, as a

congregation,.

Came to the conclusion that you were no longer going to be including musical instruments in your worship service, there had to

be some kind of a journey that you went on, that you went through

before that happened, where you perhaps were using musical instruments, never

thought anything of it, and then something began to prod your conscience about it, I'm assuming.

Well, what happened

was, we

had...

And this would

be exclusively

using the

New Testament as a guide,

correct?

That's correct, right, and

in my mind,

another pastor had begun to,

I remember the original 11 pages as I

come, then it became a little

paper.

I remember at one point it

was, we meet, and I

was working on, in regard to the use of musical instruments.

Eventually, it got

to be, he

called me, and he said he would like me to make copies of this paper and bring it down

to the conference.

So I did that, and

at that particular,

he brought it home and read it.

He called me about six months later and said that he wanted to publish

this.

Eventually, that's what happened.

The book, the paper was published in

the book, and my concern...

Yeah, our listeners may be, some of them anyway, I'm sure that most of them have some familiarity with

Reformed Baptists, but there are, I'm getting new listeners joining the Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio audience, it seems, every single day, and they are from varied backgrounds.

Just to let our listeners know, most Reformed Baptist churches do use

musical instruments, especially something like a piano.

In more recent years, nearly anything goes instrumentally, guitars and so

on, but there was a time, even not long ago in the 1980s, when I first became a Christian, where

that would be nearly unheard of.

The most you would see is a piano or organ or something like that.

And the churches today that are

worshiping exclusively with acapella music would primarily include

the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, also known as the Covenanters, the Free Church of Scotland,

the Primitive Baptists, although they are divided over this, most of them are acapella.

Many in the Plymouth Brethren are acapella.

The Church of Christ, which also has a division, but there is, I think, a predominant

number of them that exclusively worship acapella, and the Mennonites also.

And outside of that group that would be more closely

linked to Protestantism or Evangelicalism, you have the Eastern Orthodox, who for centuries have never

had musical instruments and still don't in their worship.

But why is it that this subject is so important, and why should we

consider it to be.

So important?

Well, I think this subject is important because we are talking about the worship of God.

He is jealous,

and so

in

fact every

part should be a matter of

primary concerns.

Every Sunday we gather, and whatever we do

in regard to the use of musical instruments or so and so on, whatever we do is something we do

on every Lord's Day.

So this is not something that takes place once a year on

the recurring of every Lord's Day.

And then I would add thirdly,

everything that we do in His house must be

of the kind in

which we live.

We want to be

biblical, to be careful in regard to this subject, because we see

how the Evangelical Church,

by the use of musical instruments, we would hardly even expect to go into an Evangelical Church and not see a

band front and center.

We're living at this particular time in history,

musical instruments in the Church.

In our second interview, Lord, the time in which we live, it

is unparalleled in the history of the Christian Church, in the 2 ,000 year history of the Church.

And so it's been

ignored.

This is not something that we can hope will simply go away.

This is a subject that is of

the primary and

conductive to His Word.

And so this is a subject of the primary in

point

that He thought that I was focused

on a minor

issue, and be done with it.

But if you try to do that, you'll find how

important...

What are some of the difficulties that you faced in dealing with this subject?

Well,

I think it

is

divisive.

I will

teach

on

this subject of musical instruments.

Yes, I wasn't exaggerating before when I said that I think this is, if not

the most divisive issue in the Church today, meaning music,

music in general, even if you leave a cappella music out of the equation,

it's very common for even people who may have strong theological

convictions in one direction or another, let's say that they are full -blown Calvinists, thoroughly reformed

in their soteriology, but who will join and become a member of a church that may

disagree with them on even core theological issues just because they prefer

the music.

And of course you have people who have extraordinary gifts from God in the

musical area who feel deprived for not being able to use those gifts

in a public worship service if they were in a church such as yours that is exclusive a

cappella.

But before I go to a break...

Let me just

interrupt for a moment from the

Eastman School,

and they love to

worship as well and some

of them in the use of

musical instruments, but they recognize according to

his word.

And a couple of things that I think before we go to a break we should make clear.

Number one, a couple of those denominations that we mentioned, the Reformed

Presbyterian Church of North America and the Free Church of Scotland, are not only exclusively a cappella in their

worship, they're exclusive psalmody in their worship.

They only sing from the Psalter, from the Psalms of the Old Testament.

They do not sing extra biblical hymns.

And that is not the position that you hold, am I correct?

It's exclusively in regard to musical instrumentation that you believe that we should

use exclusively the voices of the congregation in the praise.

And singing to our God and not musical instruments.

That's correct, and not an exclusive

use of music

in the house of God.

The question of what do we actually

sing, I believe that we can sing

composition.

And I do believe that the Bible has a very high standard, Colossians

3 and verse 16, with the word of Christ and

teaching and admonishing one another.

The Bible really does what should be

said.

The other thing that I wanted to have you clarify is what,.

For lack of a better term, is your agenda when you set out to write this

book and you seek to share this conviction of yours with others.

There are some, as you may know, who have a conviction for

exclusive a cappella singing.

And also there are other things in the Christian life and belief that would be in this category

where people use it as a test of fellowship.

People will say, if you use instruments, you cannot have any fellowship with me at all.

And some would even go as far in a cultic manner to say, I doubt that you are even

regenerate.

That would be an extreme case, of course.

But how do you respond to someone who would be

apprehensive about your agenda, who may think that you are bringing about

divisiveness and derision amongst the assembly, amongst the brethren, you're going to be causing church splits as a

result of this?

What is your agenda in this,.

And if you could set the record straight for everybody listening.

Well, I appreciate that question.

I certainly, along

with

many brethren who are

thankful for that fellowship, my purpose

in having these interviews with you is not to be controversial,

but to edify those who may need to think through

this subject and to be helpful in that regard.

I do think that we are exposed to dangers, the

dangers around us are very common

to that.

I do not want

to see that happen,

even if I am not able to

converge

entirely and believe that they can use

their piano.

We're going to go to

a break right.

Now, brothers.

Sorry to interrupt you like that.

And if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you

live outside of the USA, and you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and

private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on the issue or something like that, or perhaps you're

a pastor and you disagree with your denomination on it.

We will respect your wishes and allow you to remain anonymous, but if it's not about a personal and private matter, please give us at least

your first name, city and state, and your country of residence.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill

Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to

1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio.

Www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastor's Study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs

a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is John Price, pastor of Grace Baptist Church

of Rochester, New York, and author of Old Light on New Worship,

Musical Instruments in the Worship of God, a Theological, Historical, and Psychological Study.

We are addressing the theme Exclusive A Cappella Worship Defended, and this is going to be, God willing, part

one of a three -part interview with two other dates in the future that we'll

announce in a little bit, where we are addressing and focusing on different aspects of this theme.

The theological aspect is our focus today, and the next two interviews that we

have with John are going to be on the historical and psychological aspects

of musical instruments in the worship of God, and if anybody would like to join us on the air, our

email address is ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com if you have a question for John Price on this issue, and as

I said, please always give your first name, city and state and country of residence unless you're asking about a personal and private

matter that would require or at least compel you to remain anonymous.

This book, I just want to read to our listeners an endorsement for this book that you've

written.

Many of our listeners, if not most listeners to Iron Sharpens Iron radio would be very familiar with the

name Morris Roberts, who is the former editor of Banner of Truth magazine,

and he says, I enthusiastically recommend this book on congregational worship.

It is a great relief to have access to a scholarly modern examination of the question what

musical instruments are and which are not permissible in public worship of God.

For clarity and fullness of treatment, yet at the same time for courtesy and pastoral wisdom,

this short study on an aspect of the regulative principle is first class.

I highly recommend it to church members as well as to ministers of the gospel.

When Dr. Morris Roberts referred to this as a short

study, it's actually the lengthiest study on this subject that I've ever seen in print, I'm

referring to.

I mean, it is quite a substantial work on the subject.

You're right, I think it's about 250 some pages in length.

Chris, if I might just follow up on the previous question before the

break, you

mentioned

unity between pastors and their people,

unity within the congregation, the rise and

those differences.

You know, I certainly,

we are dealing with the Word of God, and we're dealing with, we must

all have the desire to know.

Yes, and Morris Roberts actually brings up another fact that I wanted to

have you mention at the outset as well before we get into the meat of the theology

regarding the subject.

Morris Roberts describes this as a book on congregational worship.

There are other areas that Christians divide over in regard to the regulative

principle of worship.

Even those that claim to adhere to the regulative principle of worship disagree on

things such as choirs, praise bands, praise

groups, special music at all, solos, duets,

trios, and some would go to the

extreme of saying anything outside of the congregation singing is really a violation

of the scriptures and the regulative principle, which would be obviously, as we already mentioned,

a belief that our worship exclusively must be taken from the New Testament.

So is this book, and is your view also a view promoting strictly

congregational singing?

In the

Old Testament, we

had the

Levitic

519 is to the Lord. He is

commanded.

Well, let's start getting into the biblical evidence that caused you to

totally rethink your understanding of music in the worship of God, especially in

regard to the use of musical instruments, which you eventually came

to dismiss for use in public worship.

I'm assuming, as most people that I know who have a strict a cappella

position in regard to their public worship services, they would have no problem with during a fellowship

gathering, informal fellowship gathering, somebody playing Amazing Grace on the piano or listening to your

favorite recording artist that is Christian that uses musical instruments and that kind of thing,

that people who are musicians should use the gifts that have been given to them, and they can

freely do that.

But I'm assuming that you would allow that even in Christian gatherings, but

not the primary gathered assembly when it is there weekly to

worship.

Right.

Our focus is

on, and people may do different things in the privacy

of their to

worship,

and

it is

sufficient to

be

guided by God's commands, and we must be

prerogative,

the

right to

be

according

to the

principle of worship

would

be

the

event in

where Nadab and

Abihu made

those commandments, and

immediately they were

said to be

according to him.

I can

remember,

and he buys a

poem, he wraps it

up, and that's our

study, is

the use

of

musical

instruments.

And what we find, I

think it

would be helpful at

this moment in regard

to this.

We find them mentioned

in the historical

variety of that's

the only

structure and

the only place where

we find

no command, we find no example.

Yeah, they're mentioned only

about referring to

heaven,.

Correct?

Musical instruments are only mentioned in the New Testament in reference to heaven,.

Am I right on that?

Well, you're referring...

Yes.

Yes, and John, when

he mentions the

heart,

the voice, which I heard,

the

answer

in

his

temple, now

when we come to

Christ and his apostles, we

find no command.

One of the

comps that people have is they go back into the Psalms, they go back into the Old

Testament, they find the instruments used, and they bring them into the New Testament church,

the

New

Testament,

the authority,

and the will

of God.

Well,.

We're going to go to our midway break right now.

If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail

.com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we do already have quite a number of people waiting to have their

questions asked and answered, and we will try to get to as many of you as possible, but we

do want our guest, John Price, when we return from the break to

continue some thoughts theologically and biblically on his position.

So I hope you're patient, and if you want to get in line behind the other listeners already waiting to have their

questions asked, our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, city and state, and country of

residence if you live outside of the good old USA.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after.

These messages, God willing.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio,

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs

a pastor.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the full two hours, with about an hour to go, is John Price, pastor

of Grace Baptist Church of Rochester, New York, and he's also the author of Old Light on New

Worship, Musical Instruments and the Worship of God, a theological, historical, and psychological study.

This is part one of a three -part interview that we are discussing, and today

is going to be primarily focused on the theology of this subject, the theological

aspects.

Before I return to John, I have some important announcements to make in regard to special events coming up.

The Gospel of the Reformation 500th anniversary celebration is being held at the Word of Truth

Church in Farmingville, Long Island, Friday, September 29th, and Saturday, September

30th, at the Word of Truth Church, 1055 Portion Road, Farmingville,

Long Island, New York.

The keynote speaker is Tony Costa, a dear friend of mine from Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He is the professor of apologetics and Islam there at Toronto Baptist Seminary,

and I hope that you could join me there.

I am intending to participate in this as well.

Go to WOTChurch .com, WOTChurch .com, if you have

an interest in joining me there and registering, and WOT stands for Word of

Truth, and that's Church .com, WOTChurch .com.

We could also call them

at 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614.

The very next day, the first Sunday of October, October 1st, Hope Reformed Baptist Church

in Medford, Long Island, New York is going to also have Dr. Tony Costa from Toronto Baptist Seminary

speak at their worship service, so that will be a Sunday morning service

at 11, and if you'd like to join them at this continuation of the celebration

of the 500th anniversary of the for further

details, hopereformedli, standing for longisland .net.

You can also call Hope Reformed Baptist Church

at 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

Following that, in November from the 17th through the 18th, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having

the Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology on the theme, For Still Our Ancient Foe, a reference to

Satan from that classic Reformation hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.

The speakers at this conference include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

The registration can be made at alliancenet .org,

alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology.

Once again, that's November 17th through the 18th.

It's going to be held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania, and then

in January from the 17th through the 20th, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia.

G3 standing for Grace, Gospel, and Glory.

The 17th will exclusively be a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and the 18th through the

20th will exclusively be an English -speaking edition of the conference featuring Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom,

Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B. Charles, Jr., Tim Chalies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell,

Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha

Peace.

The theme is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.

If you would like to join me at the G3 Conference, I plan to be there as well with an Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth,

go to g3conference .com.

Please let any of these organizations running these events know that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen

at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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The advertisers that spend hard -earned money to keep this program afloat have

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We are back now to the discussion that we began a little over an hour

ago with John Price of Grace Baptist Church of Rochester, New York, and author of Old

Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments, and the Worship of God, a Theological, Historical, and Psychological Study.

And John, if you could provide some more biblical evidence that compelled you

to arrive at this position of strictly a cappella worship before we take any of our listeners

who.

Are waiting, take any questions from our listeners who are waiting.

Yes, thank you.

We need to begin in the Old Testament and we are looking at the subject

of the use of

music,

the worship of the tabernacle in the time of Moses.

And in that passage,

God commands Moses to make, he

commands him to be made out of

silver,

the

priest used

for calling out

the army.

Now what God does here

is he's being very specific about the instrument that is to be used.

It's to be the trumpet.

What it is to be made of and how it is to be made are

the only ones to use it and when it is to be used.

And this is significant because the

Egyptian, the Egyptian

culture at that time used a wide variety of musical

instruments were used,

they were used

and was

educated in all the learning of the Egyptians and he grew up in Pharaoh's home.

So Moses was well aware of all that were used but

when he came and built the tabernacle, he knew

and that command came to him here in Numbers chapter 10 at the

use of these two trumpets.

Now these

are to

be the

only

instruments the

ears of the

continue

now throughout the now when we read the narrative

when he brought the ark into Jerusalem and when he ordered the

we we might wonder well why is David doing this because he's

a skilled

simply views this as a

matter of

liberty.

Well the

answer to that

question is found

it needs

to be musical instruments

25.

He then

stationed

the Levites

and so he did

this he

brought in these musical

temple worship because the command and

then a second in

that it was the

Levites who

finally

but then the

third not

only

brought in we read

and now we add

to them we

read again in

verse 26 to why David

brought those

now

what

happened

the

musical

instrument

he brings

in the

symbols the hearts

the liars he

did so and

then it reads again

that begins

the temple and he brings in the instruments

according to the command of his father David and then the pattern continues at different points

throughout the history of the nation of Israel for example 170 years after

the priest after 23 in verse 18

we have that

event

300 years after David in the time of King

Hezekiah another occasion

of the reinstated years

after

the writing of

David now

we are the the

nation

of Israel

in

the

worship in the

site they

brought in 550 the

Levitical priests with the ordinance or the command of

David we

have

Nehemiah

of

the

Levites has

done

a core

three of

the Old

Testament

years later

and

not

just

in

Babylon

and and

influence

and they

did so

so there

was not liberty here

to do whatever they pleased they brought the

instruments as we look at the Old Testament

the men the

matter is

never an example

of anything like that

and so the

matter of

indifferent

to

the specific musical

instruments which were to be used

in God's

house God's

view and his

complements

are used

for

example

place are talking about

events that these

are unique and one

-time

events for example

Miriam

and when we

come to they

abolish

the

entire temple

now

the

new Christ

testament church

now we

can

we can show that the

way as possible

is the abolition of that worship

Hebrews chapter

together

we find

in Hebrews

8 and verse 13 disappear

and he's

talking about the old

is ready to

descend the

end of

verse 3 he

goes

through reformation was to come

the Old Testament worship

and a new worship

and right

now we're

going to

take

a

break

John we'll.

Have you complete your thoughts when we return.

And then we'll have to take some of our listener questions.

And if anybody wants to jump online and have a question asked and answered now is the time to do it because we're running out of

time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And as always please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable because because

it's about a personal and private matter that you're asking but otherwise give us your first name at least city and state and country of

residence.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in.

We've got about 25 minutes left with a discussion of a discussion with pastor

john price of grace baptist church of rochester new york.

And we are discussing exclusive acapella worship defended.

This is part one of a three -part interview.

The second two dates that we have scheduled are october 10th and the 12th so we hope that you

join us for those dates as well.

God willing.

And uh pastor price uh if you want to wrap up anything that you didn't

finish saying before the break so that we can now take our listener questions because people have been waiting for quite a while.

Pastor price.

Hello.

I have no idea what happened to pastor price.

Are you there.

Pastor price.

Well hopefully.

Pastor price.

I'm here.

Oh i am here.

Okay.

Um i'm sorry about that.

Uh the only other passage well maybe two briefly passages that i would want to mention.

Uh ephesians chapter two.

By abolishing in his flesh the enmity which is the law of

command by his death he has abolished the the law of

commandments the ordinances the ceremonial laws of the old testament.

Temple worship.

He could say the same thing three uh verses 10 and 11

that he's referring paul is referring to the old covenant.

And it's and it's worship.

And that worship um had glory but now it's.

And now there is the new testament the new gospel worship which remains

and um so it

has been abolished.

We look to christ and and we find um their

commands for worship uh to be the reading and preaching of the word

hymns and spiritual songs.

Uh there is alms giving.

And there are the sacrament baptisms and the

ordinances of the new testament all of

this.

The apostles never reach back into the temple worship and try to bring any aspect of that

worship into.

Okay.

Well we have.

Oh i'm sorry.

Were you uh in the middle of saying something there.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

I thought i cut you off.

I'm sorry.

Uh sorry.

No i thought i cut you off.

I guess i didn't.

Um we have joe from clifton new jersey who says.

Dear pastor price thank you for sharing your convictions on the matter of instruments.

I am often grieved that in our modern day many churches implement music to appeal to the will desires and

emotions of people rather than to pursue what most honors and obeys god.

So in this regard i appreciate that your primary goal is to be faithful to god and worship and to edify the church.

My question regards the hermeneutic by which you come to your conclusion about exclusion of

instruments.

Given that there is precedent in scripture to have instruments accompanying accompanying sinning

singing accompanying singing how does your hermeneutic

assure that the exclusion of instruments is not taking the regulative principle to an extreme

that goes beyond scriptural principle.

Can you please expound on your hermeneutic.

Yes i guess because of the fact that your hermeneutic is basically largely is based largely on

silence in the new testament not a clear prohibition.

There is going to be questions like that.

And especially because of the fact that the there is no detailed

liturgy or order of worship in the god -breathed pages of the scriptures

only the the bare minimum of things that you mentioned uh that we have in

acts two and in and colossians three.

You know in regarding to the breaking of bread the fellowship the teaching the

giving the singing and so on.

But if you could uh if you could answer joe's question sure i uh

um i think that silence

and what i mean by that

is that

when um we need god's command in order

and that means it is that is

that he does not desire um that to be brought in now i um

for understanding of the regular

to print

say that then we would have uh we could bring in anything that we wanted.

Proper view of the regulative

presence is the pro to

what he has clearly commanded.

Now i recognize that in the old testament we have singing and we have the use of

instruments.

But these are two separate acts and they can both take place.

Both of them are commanded in the old testaments of

the levites and the use of the musical instruments was commanded of the levites.

Now the use of music

very easily commanded them to be used in the new testament.

He does not he only command with the

voice that is the continuing command.

In the new testament find the

apostles ever reaching back into the into

the new testament the

use of the

news reformation

obsolete see

in the old test

were to

be used in the worship of god

on many different occasions about

those instruments.

When we come to the new testament we find in

regard to the use of musical instruments the issue is how and as i've

explained

why did the holy spirit speak so abundantly of instruments in the old testament and yet he

cannot speak as well if he wants

us to have that be

from the old

disappeared we have uh oh by the way joe you have won a free copy

of the book.

That we are discussing uh written by our guest john price old light on new worship.

Please give us your full mailing address in clifton new jersey so cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs

.com can mail that out to you.

And we thank our friends at simpson publishing for providing us with these books that we

are giving away.

Uh we have chris in runnels iowa who says.

Thanks for having this very respectful discussion on how the regulative principle affects our worship of god.

It has been very thought -provoking so far.

I am curious how your guest would respond to arguments against the decalog being

binding on the new on the christian conscience since it is since

it is in the old testament.

I ask this because it seems like someone could reject the ten commandments for a similar reason

saying that it particularly had to do with israel and not the church.

Thank you.

Well uh i'm assuming that you would answer that the not at least nine of the ten commandments are specifically repeated

in the new testament.

But.

But if you could.

I would i would argue that all ten commandments because are repeated um in the new testament

and in regard to the sabbath day i would say that jesus contra um

over the sabbath day uh he that that was the most that jesus

had.

I would not agree that the fourth commandment is not mentioned.

By christ and any other.

Yeah well my point was just that even to satisfy the uh most

ardent new covenant theologian who only sees the decalog as something that was exclusively

for the nation of israel even they believe that nine of the ten are in the new covenant.

Right.

Well let me let me answer the question.

Um paul says in second timothy chapter 3 in verse 16 is

profitable training in

righteousness the new testament.

He's early in that passage

and everything.

My understanding is that everything continues

that

with

the decalogue over many passages

the law of god still continues to be.

That would be okay.

And by the way chris you've.

Also won a free copy of old light on new worship so make sure that we have your full mailing address in runnels

iowa so that's cvbbs .com carmelin valley bible book service.

Can ship that out to you.

Uh john in carlisle pennsylvania says.

Sorry i missed the first part of the program and this may have already been answered.

But when the psalms tell us to praise him with the sound of a trumpet how is it wrong to do so.

In other words how could we sing.

A song that is commanding us to use a musical

instrument

adopt that speak

of uh the altar the

evening sacrifice the goat

and everything speak of.

It's obvious that that would

not be the case and i and i and the the

song clearly be sung without uh bringing

all these things.

And they can be sung um independently of that

that of these particular practices that i've mentioned i think we sing

but that does not necessitate that we bring forward

um these aspects.

Thank you john.

And carlisle you've also won a free copy of old light on new worship and since you're in carlisle

pennsylvania just pick it up at cumberland valley bible book service on north hanover street right there in carlisle

and tell them tell todd and patty jennings that you won the book on iron chirping's iron radio.

Uh let's see.

Here we have uh gordy in mechanicsburg pennsylvania

who says i think this is a very important question.

How would you suggest bringing i'm sorry.

How would you suggest beginning dialogue on this subject within the local church.

That would be a very touchy thing to do.

Obviously when a church may already not only use musical instruments they might have a a

professional level uh band that would make broadway blush.

And here you are bringing in this suggestion to uh abolish the use of instrumental

or musical instruments i should say.

If you could answer gordy's question right.

Well i i.

And make sure that you yourself.

Proper knowledge to be able to speak to them or uh give them um what they need to read

to be edified in regard to

that 30 of

the elders in the church

and then beyond that

any anything have to be determined

by the level.

The use of musical instruments in the church you know i mean is it just a piano.

Is it going on here.

His conscience in dealing with that in dealing with

that issue not to

be disruptive and not to affect the unity of

the.

As he makes this change.

Well thank you.

A gordian mechanicsberg you've also won a free copy of old light on new worship.

And since mechanic spurg is only about 10 minutes away from cumberland valley bible book service why don't you

just drive by there yourself and pick up your copy as well.

Compliments of simpson publishing.

And uh we have.

Let's see cj in lindenhurst long island new york.

Who asks do you think that removal of musical instruments from the corporate

worship of god's people might also bring an end to a lot of the conflict and wars that people have

over musical instruments and rhythms and melodies.

Etc.

I think that's a very good point.

I i think that um that and i'm

speaking of

um use

of occupy can be used because

now entertainment oriented

off congregational

should be

simple and easily sung of

music that can be used.

And that is often a source of conflict and trouble among god's people and

acapella.

There's often a lot more peace because we we can't get ourselves involved we're.

Not interested in.

And thank you uh cj from lindenhurst long island.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address because you've also won a copy of old light on new worship.

We have arnie in perry county pennsylvania who asks.

This may sound like a silly and trivial question but i know of strictly acapella churches that actually

argue with one another on whether or.

Not we can clap our hands during worship.

What is your opinion.

Heard of that.

Um i know that these kind of things.

My opinion is i

you know.

Add something

of these other.

Well arnie you've also.

Won the last copy of old light on new worship.

Thank you very much for your question and please make sure we have your full mailing address in perry county pennsylvania.

The last question that we have for the day is from murray in kinross scotland.

Would you say that the use of musical instruments actually invalidates worship from god's point of view making it

impossible for us to render worship in spirit and in truth to him if musical instruments are used.

Or would you say that acceptable worship still exists but the musical instruments are merely an unwarranted.

Addition i i would not say that the use of musical

instruments invalidates i would say it is

an unwarranted addition of

the use of musical instrument and

that needs to be recognized as.

Well well we're out of time and we're going to be able to uh fill in what we left out

uh during our next editions of this same exact study uh on october 10th

and october 12th god willing when we have john price back to examine the use of music

musical instruments in the new covenant worship.

And i want to make sure that our listeners know that you can get this book old light on new worship from

simpson publishing company and their website is simpson publishing .com simpson that's s

-i -m -p -s -o -n publishing .com and you could also get it at cvbbs .com

cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs .com and i want to also make sure that

uh the listeners have grace baptist church.

Of rochester's uh.

Contact information.

What is the best website for you.

Um you can.

Well you can email me and you can get it

later.

Yes.

Gbcrock .org.

Gbcrock .org.

Thank you.

Well thank you so much uh.

Pastor price uh and if you could hold on the line i'd like to talk to you for a little bit after the show and i want to

thank you and i want to thank everybody who listened today especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a

sinner.