November 16, 2017 Show with David J. Engelsma on “The Gospel Truth of Justification: Proclaimed, Defended, Developed (Part 2 of 3)”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 16th day of November 2017.

I'm so delighted to have back on the program a returning guest, David J.

Engelsma. He's an author, a professor of dogmatics and Old Testament studies for 20 years at Protestant Reform Seminary in Granville, Michigan, and emeritus professor since the

Synod of 2008. He is the editor, or has been the editor, of the Standard Bearer magazine from 1988 to 2002.

He is a lecturer and preacher touring in North America and throughout the British Isles on behalf of the

British Reformed Fellowship, which is devoted to spread and defend the

Reformed faith in the United Kingdom. Today we are addressing part two of a discussion we began back in September on his latest book,

The Gospel Truth of Justification Proclaimed, Defended, Developed, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, David J.

Engelsma. I'm glad to be with you again, Chris. And if anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and please give us your first name at least, your city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and please only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on this issue that we are discussing today.

Perhaps you're a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox listener and you just don't want to publicly identify yourself.

We understand that, so we will accommodate your request and allow you to remain anonymous if it is about such a matter, but other than that, please at least give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. We, the last time we were together, we discussed basically the biblical definition of justification and we contrasted the biblical definition of justification with that of the

Church of Rome, especially what Rome dogmatically declared their understanding or their dogma of justification to be at the

Council of Trent, and at a council which they also anathematized, those who had a

Protestant belief in the topic of justification that was by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone.

But if you could just summarize what we discussed the last time, just so our listeners who didn't hear you the first time, if you could summarize what the historically

Protestant and of course biblical definition of justification is.

Justification, which is a major theme in the Epistle to the

Galatians, is God's act of declaring the guilty, damn -worthy sinner righteous in his judgment by imputing or reckoning to that sinner the obedience of Jesus Christ in his place and on his behalf.

And God does so impute or reckon the righteousness of Jesus Christ to the sinner by the sinner's faith in Jesus Christ and by the sinner's faith alone in Jesus Christ.

It contains, does justification, the forgiveness of sins as well as the imputation of the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

It's really the content, the meaning of the petition in the Lord's Prayer, forgive us our debts.

Now there are Roman Catholics who will say that works are required, not only their own works but the treasury of merit, where the works of Christ and the saints are in store for them to be accredited to them to enter through the gates of heaven after they die.

Of course in Roman Catholic theology the vast majority of people have to enter through purgatory first, which we as Protestants believe is a dangerous heresy.

But some people on our side, or should

I say those who claim to be on our side of the Reformation, they would say that works need not even exist in the life of a

Christian. They will believe that, and some of them will go as far as to say that you and I would be committing or teaching and believing in heresy for saying that works are even a necessary fruit for one to be deemed a

Christian. But we are not saying at all that that works are not to be present in the life of a person who is born again.

There are not to be required fruits for someone to be viewed as a

Christian. Don't we believe that in that sense works are necessary? With regard to that issue, the

Reformation expressed itself as a unanimous testimony in this pithy saying, faith alone justifies, but faith is never alone.

And by that the Reformation and the Orthodox churches meant that God reckons the righteousness of Christ to the sinner so that the sinner becomes righteous in his judgment by means of faith alone, without any works, without any obedience to the law of God.

But that faith by which God justifies the sinner is a living faith that always manifests itself in the performance of good works and honoring the law of God.

A faith that does not show itself in a life of good works is no living faith at all but a dead faith, and a dead faith does not justify.

So those who contend that it's possible for one to be justified and saved by faith alone, without his or her living a life of holiness, are heretical with the heresy that James condemns in James 2.

James is contending in James 2 against those very persons whom you've described argue for and even justify a life of a supposed

Christian as a life of disobedience to the law of God. So to state matters positively, we are justified by faith alone.

Our works do not enter into our justification. But the same

God who justifies us also sanctifies us and makes us holy, and that holiness is the fruit of our justification.

The man who is delivered from hell and damnation in his own consciousness by believing alone in Jesus Christ is one whom the

Spirit makes grateful or thankful, and in that gratitude, that justified and saved person willingly obeys the law of God, although not perfectly in this life.

I'm not in the sphere, I don't live in the sphere of those who are engaged in the controversy that you are describing, but I am familiar with a controversy in certain circles over what is called the lordship controversy, and apparently there are those in that circle who maintain that Jesus can be the savior of someone without also being the

Lord of his life, which amounts to teaching that one can be saved by being freely justified by the grace of God while going on living, rebelling against the lordship of Christ, and going on living in disobedience, in penitent disobedience to the law of God.

That's an impossibility. Jesus is a complete Savior. When he saves a man by forgiving his sins, he also saves that man or that woman by delivering him from the ruling power of sin, and in fact we may even go so far as to say that the goal or purpose of Jesus Christ with saving a person by forgiving his sins and delivering him from hell and damnation as the punishment is exactly that that person will be mightily moved by that salvation to love this

Jesus Christ, and the way to love Jesus Christ is not to walk in disobedience to the commandments of his father, but the way to love and thank

Jesus Christ is the way of obeying the commandments and living a holy life. So to put it bluntly, for whomever

Jesus Christ is the Savior, he is also the Lord, and if he is not the

Lord of someone's life, he's also not the Savior of that person. Those who go on living impenitently, although they claim to be justified, are hypocrites, and they're not saved at all.

Amen. And we are going to be discussing some modern heresies, although heresies typically, even if they are in some way unique in a modern form, they typically have some kind of root in the past, as they say, nothing is new under the sun, but the first of which we are going to be addressing today, it's,

I'm never easy criticizing friends of mine, especially those that I have known for many years, decades even, but I have known some professing brothers and sisters from back in the day before the

Federal Vision Movement manifested itself and became a movement, and they would later come to join this movement, and most of those who

I strongly admire and value in my life, who are

Christian mentors, especially those in the Reformed faith, have been very critical of this

Federal Vision Movement, ranging in varying degrees of condemnation against it, especially since it is not as easy to figure out, as some might seem, because it doesn't seem to be monolithic, where you have different understandings of justification and different understandings of other teachings involved in that one movement.

For instance, I know that a friend of mine that I've known going back to the 1980s,

Steve Schlissel, is considered one of the the first leaders of the

Federal Vision Movement, and Steve Schlissel does not, at least the last time I spoke to him, he did not believe in infant communion or paedo -communion, where it seems that the majority of those involved in the

Federal Vision do believe in the practice of infant communion. But tell us something about your understanding of the

Federal Vision, how it started, and what are the primary tenets of this movement.

I recognize that the men whom

I would classify as part of the Federal Vision Movement differ with regard to elements of theology that I regard as less significant.

With regard to the major tenets of the Federal Vision Movement, they are one, and fundamentally the error of all of them, including

Steve Schlissel, which I have proved from his own writings in several of my own works, the fundamental error of them all, and it is a fundamental error, it is a denial of the gospel of grace, and it is the overturning of the

Protestant Reformation of the Church in 1517, is the teaching of justification by faith and by the good works of the sinner.

Their fundamental error is a denial of the cardinal gospel truth of justification by faith alone.

All of them are guilty of that heresy. With regard to other matters, they may differ, and infant communion is one of those matters about which they may differ, but all of them agree in teaching justification by faith and by works.

And in that regard, although not all of them are eager to disclose this, they have a close relationship with a broader movement throughout the world that calls itself the

New Perspective on Paul, and the leading figure in that movement with relation to conservative

Reformed and Presbyterians in North America is the Anglican Bishop N .T.

Wright. The New Perspective on Paul thinks that Luther and the

Reformation got it all wrong with regard to Paul's teaching in Romans and Galatians that we are justified without the works of the law.

According to the New Perspective on Paul, Paul was not referring by the works of the law to the good works that a man may perform, but rather to Old Testament civil and ceremonial laws, and Paul was not teaching a matter or truth concerning salvation, soteriology, but he was teaching a completely different matter, how one can know and be recognized as belonging to the

Church. Faith without Old Testament Jewish works is the identification that someone belongs to the

Church, and they press that erroneous teaching about Paul into the area of ecumenicity so that they make their doctrine of being justified without the works of the law the basis of ecumenicity with the

Roman Catholic Church. If the Reformation got it all wrong, and if faith is the mark or identification that one belongs to the

Church, then Rome and the Protestants should come together around the Lord's Supper, and Wright makes no secret of that.

He states that openly and plainly so that there's an ecumenical driver in all of that.

But to get back to the basic teaching of all of the federal vision men, their teaching is that a man is justified by his faith in Christ, but since faith in Christ always is active in performing good works, justification is also by one's own good works, granted he does them by the power of the

Holy Spirit, as Rome was willing to grant in the 16th century, by the way, but justification is by faith and by one's own good works of obedience to the law of God.

That is a denial of justification by faith alone. Now what distinguishes most of the federal vision men,

I would say all of the federal vision men, is that this teaching of justification by faith and by good works has its origin in their specific doctrine of the covenant of God with believers and their children.

A leading advocate of the federal vision, Norman Shepard, formerly Orthodox Presbyterian theologian at Westminster Seminary, and now a member of the

Christian Reformed Church in North America, advocates very clearly what the rest of the federal vision men have also indicated with more or less clarity, that his doctrine of justification by faith and works comes out of his peculiar view of the covenant.

According to him and the others as well, God establishes his covenant with believers and with the children of believers, and their baptism is the power, not just a sign, but the power of establishing the covenant of grace with every child of believing parents.

And this means that at baptism God shares the saving benefits of Jesus Christ, including justification, with every baptized child.

Salvation in the covenant is by grace, but whether one continues in the covenant and will be finally saved in the last judgment is conditional.

It depends upon the child's continuing to believe as a condition he must fulfill, and upon the good works that the child faithfully performs to the very end.

But according to these federal vision men, because the covenant and its salvation are conditional, it's very well possible that someone who has had salvation begun in him, including justification, can lose that by failing to fulfill the condition.

There's a falling away, to use the terms of the canons of Dort, there's a falling away of those who have been saints.

Now you see how justification enters into the matter. One of the saving benefits that God shares with every baptized child is justification, or the forgiveness of sins, or the, they wouldn't say imputation of the righteousness of Christ, they would say the imputation of the righteousness of Christ, and the infusion of the righteousness of Christ.

They have their doctrine of justification wrong too, but their position is that since this covenant salvation can be lost by the failure to fulfill the condition, because salvation and the covenant is conditional, justification is by faith and by the works of the justified.

And there you are, right back in the camp with Rome, justification by faith and by works.

Now going back to the new perspective on Paul, I have had numerous conversations with advocates of federal vision, and even though some of them have varying degrees of similarity with the new perspective, and openly, in varying degrees, agree with N .T.

Wright on some of his primary doctrines under that umbrella of new perspective, they, most of them adamantly say that they are two different things, that you cannot blur the distinction between federal vision and the new perspective on Paul.

How do you respond to individuals who will make that statement? What the relationship between the federal vision and the new perspective on Paul may be, with regard to the origin of the federal vision, only

God knows, but it is more than remarkable how similar those two theological movements are.

Both of them teach a universal saving covenant with believers and their children.

Both of them teach that people can be justified and lose that justification and salvation.

Both of them emphasize strongly that even if justification in a man's life is by faith alone, some of them will grudgingly grant that, especially of late, when their feet have been held to the fire, that justification by faith and works is the total overthrow of the

Protestant Reformation. Both the federal vision and the new perspective on Paul are vehement that justification in the final judgment is just by faith and by the good works that sinners have performed in their lifetime.

That's an emphasis of N .T. Wright, and that is also an emphasis of all of the proponents of the federal vision.

The final decisive judgment on the world's last day is by faith and by the good works that sinners perform.

So there is a close relationship between the federal vision and the new perspective on Paul produced the federal vision in North America.

That's something I can't judge and that I haven't determined from the writings of the federal vision men, but it doesn't make any difference because both of them are heretical movements with regard to their content.

Both of them teach justification by faith and by works. That's the all -important matter, whether the federal vision was produced by the new perspective on Paul, that's not the crucial matter, but they both do teach the same heresy.

We have an anonymous listener from Suffolk County, New York, and he says,

I too have been confused by those who I know who adhere to what is called the federal vision, or at least claim to.

The reason being is that I have heard some who more resemble what you have been describing, but others who seem very different.

In fact, there is one individual that I know who has referred me to a website of a federal vision advocate named

Luke Neusma, and I don't know if I'm mispronouncing that, you being

Dutch, Professor Engels might know how to pronounce this, but it's N -I -E -U -W -S -M -A, and Luke Neusma says that federal vision is not salvation by works, it is not justification by works, it is not baptismal regeneration, it is not a denial of assurance of salvation, it is not the new perspective on Paul, it is not a denial of classic reform theology as found in the

Westminster or Heidelberg catechisms, it is not a denial of the imputation of Christ's righteousness, and is not a heresy taught by men who have been tried in an ecclesiastical court.

Are you familiar with this federal visionist named Luke Neusma, and what do you have to say to what he openly states in his own writings?

With regard to the name, that's a tough one even for a Dutchman to pronounce.

If I have the spelling correctly, Meusma would be about as close as you could come to that, and he obviously is

Dutch, and what's even more wonderful, he's Frisian Dutch. There are Netherlands, and Friesland is one, and that's the outstanding province, so I have an inclination toward him already, apart from our theological discussion.

Did you notice one thing in his missive or message to you? He didn't tell you what it is.

If it isn't all those things, what is it? Well, let me ask the listener, our anonymous listener in Suffolk County, if you could provide us any information on that, we will read that as well.

Let me say one more thing about that in connection with what he's saying. His name is not among the names of the outstanding proponents of the federal vision, the theologians who are recognized and have been recognized as the proponents and developers of the federal vision.

Could you read those names or list them? The outstanding names as they come to mind are

Norman Shepard, out of Westminster Seminary and the OPC, John Burack, who had his beginnings in the

United Reformed Churches, Steve Schlissel, an independent whom you mentioned, and Steve Wilkerson?

Yes. Wilkinson? I can't remember how to pronounce his name. Wilkinson out of the OPCA. That's another name.

And with regard to all of those men, the leaders, the representatives, there are several charges that hold against all of them.

They teach justification by faith and by works. They teach the falling away of the saints.

One can be justified for a time and lose his justification and his salvation.

They're very outspoken about that, very daring about that, in light of the Reformed doctrine of the preservation of the saints.

And all of them teach that the sacrament of baptism has the efficacy to establish a saving union with Jesus Christ, which bestows upon the baptized one the benefits of salvation, including justification.

These are things that your correspondent denies he holds, but all of the leading proponents of the federal vision hold those fundamental errors.

And by the way, I should have mentioned a little while ago when I was talking about their teaching regarding the covenant, federal in the description, federal vision, which is their own self -designation, federal means covenant, so that the federal vision is a covenant vision.

And if it's going to be addressed by Orthodox, Reformed, and Presbyterian churches and theologians, it has to be addressed at its source, which is their particular view of the covenant.

That's not being done. And I happen to know, for our listeners' benefit, in Suffolk County, New York, our anonymous listener, there was one of the things he listed, or that Luke Newsma listed.

Here it is. It is not a heresy taught by men who have been tried in an ecclesiastical court.

I say tried, that's a key word, because I know that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, according to my friends in that denomination, have said that they, as a denomination, have declared it to be heresy.

But I guess the key word here is possibly accurate, that there not have been specific men tried in an ecclesiastical court.

But anyway, we're going to be right back after our first station break. If anybody would like to join us on the air, whether you agree with the federal vision, or whether you adamantly oppose it, either way, whether you agree with our guest, or whether you adamantly disagree with our guest, we would love to hear from you with your questions at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And I want all of our listeners who may be advocates of federal vision to know that I do intend, at some point, to have a debate on Iron Trip and Zion Radio between the two opposing sides, one that I hope will be conducted with charity and decency and order, not a shouting match or a hate -filled exhibition.

But I pray that that can be developed in the not -so -distant future.

But we're going to be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

Tired of bop store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience, featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study. Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the

NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation. The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the

NASB is known for. The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference

Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues. From compact to giant print

Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com. Whichever edition you choose, trust, discover, and enjoy the

NASB for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the

Church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com.

That's CVBBS .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And you can also call CVBBS .com at 800 -656 -0231.

800 -656 -0231. And if you purchase $50 or more of books,

Bibles, and other Christian materials, you will receive absolutely free a book that retails for $25,

John Calvin, A Pilgrim's Life. And that is written by Herman J.

Selderhuis. And perhaps you can correct me on that one as well, Dr. Engels. I think that's

Dutch as well, isn't it? Seldenhuis. Oh, Seldenhuis. Okay.

And this book has been praised by some very notable Reformed scholars, including at least one from your denomination,

Dr. Engelsma. And it has even been praised by some

Arminians who, although they did not change their theology as a result of reading it, they have a much higher view of John Calvin as a man than they previously had before reading it, having adopted, unfortunately, before reading this book, a slanderous caricature of the man

John Calvin. But this is, as I said, it retails for $25, and you'll get it absolutely free of charge if you purchase $50 or more worth of books and Bibles and other

Christian materials at cvbbs .com. And that number, once again, is 800 -656 -0231.

800 -656 -0231. And we are back now with our discussion on a very important issue,

Gospel Truth of Justification Proclaimed, Defended, Developed by our guest,

David J. Engelsma. If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. And we do have another email from that same anonymous listener in Suffolk County, New York.

He says, sorry that I did not include this in my last email, but Luke Newsma does have the positive things that Federal Vision actually does support according to him.

And they are an emphasis on biblical definitions, an emphasis on the external covenant, a different definition of Christian, an emphasis on strong church authority, an emphasis on the sacraments, particularly baptism, another aspect of the church, a global ecclesiology, and another aspect to election.

Obviously, those other aspects aren't really defined in this list that we've been given.

But if you could respond to any of that, if you want me to repeat them one by one, or if you want to just respond to this as a general response.

I'm aware of most of the propositions that he puts forward as characteristic of the

Federal Vision. None of them defines the Federal Vision or describes the

Federal Vision as to its fundamental teaching. And each of them, or at least most of them, deserve to be examined closely.

For example, the emphasis on baptism, I think he mentioned, or the sacraments.

What that actually refers to as far now as the leaders of the Federal Vision movement are concerned is that baptism affects the salvation of the one who is baptized.

That is, the sprinkling with water or the immersion brings about the salvation of everyone who is immersed or sprinkled.

I do not regard that as a stronger view of the sacrament, but I regard that as a reversion in Protestantism to the ex operato heresy of the

Roman Catholic Church. The ceremony brings about the reality of salvation. And I was describing that earlier when

I mentioned that the Federal Vision people think that and teach that every child who is baptized by virtue of that ceremony or administration of the sacrament by the

Church is saved, is savingly united to Jesus Christ so as to receive the benefits of salvation that are in Jesus Christ, including justification, but that whether one continues in that salvation, that covenant salvation, and finally enjoys the perfection of that covenant salvation, is conditional, conditioned on the activity of the child or the person's faith and conditioned on the good works that the person is supposed to perform his life long.

That therefore is one of the errors of the Federal Vision movement so far as I am concerned and so far as creedal reform

Christianity is concerned. That is not a stronger doctrine of the sacrament at all, but that's an erroneous heretical doctrine of the sacraments.

And I might mention in that connection, obviously you've noticed and your listeners will have noticed as well, that involved in this, implied in this that I've been describing, is the loss of salvation by one who has been saved.

So that's a denial of the preservation of the Saints. That leads me to notice, as I emphasize, without the shadow of a doubt,

I can prove all of this from the writings of Shepard and Barak and Schlissel and the others, and as much as justification by faith alone is the hinge on which all turns as far as salvation is concerned,

I'm quoting Calvin there, to deny justification by faith alone or to corrupt it is to lose all of the doctrines of grace, including the preservation of the

Saints. And that's characteristic of the outstanding theologians of the

Federal Vision movement, without any embarrassment and without any disguise of what they're saying, they deny all of the doctrines of grace, which have been referred to as the five points of Calvinism.

Another instance of that or example of that is the teaching of Norman Shepard and others that John 3 16 means that Jesus Christ died and atoned for every human being without exception.

So that Shepard says he can go up to anyone and say to anyone that he meets, egregious unbelievers as well as anybody in the church,

Christ died for you, God loves you, and that obviously is a denial of one of the so -called five points of Calvinism.

We're talking here not about a superficial error, not about a minor matter, but as the denial of justification by faith alone would indicate, we're talking about a denial of the gospel of grace.

I regard the Federal Vision movement, and I have studied church history,

I regard the Federal Vision movement as the most dangerous assault upon the true church and upon the gospel of salvation by grace in the history of the church since the time of the

Reformation. This is a fundamental matter. Well going back to, for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with the term perseverance and preservation of the

Saints, basically it is very commonly known in some circles as eternal security, but to those of us who are

Reformed, although we view the term eternal security as something that is a true statement, if you are saved you are indeed eternally secure, but the term eternal security is inadequate.

It's not descriptive enough, and we believe that the reason why Christians are eternally secure is because we are preserved by God Himself.

We persevere because we are preserved by God Himself, and that does not mean that we are sinless, am

I correct? I mean, no Reformed person who is faithful not only to the Bible but to the creeds and confession of the

Reformation would say that a man can ever achieve a sinless state on this earth, as John Wesley posed as a possible occurrence, a theory, if you will.

I don't know if John Wesley ever claimed that he had achieved that, but we do not claim any type of sinless perfection, am

I right? That's correct. Your defense of the phraseology, the preservation or perseverance of the

Saints, is correct and important. We don't believe that one's saved, one is always saved, even though he may live like the devil.

That's not how God preserves His people. By the preservation of the Saints we mean that when God begins the work of salvation,

He perfects it. He doesn't lose it, and He preserves one whom

He has begun salvation in by keeping him in the faith of Jesus Christ and also by governing

Him so that He walks in a godly life. As you indicated, a godly life is not a perfect life.

My Heidelberg Catechism has me confess, and I agree with that both on the basis of the

Bible and on the basis of my own knowledge of myself, that in even the holiest,

I'm not categorizing myself there, even among the holiest of the Saints there is only a very small beginning of the new obedience.

That's true to the testimony of Romans chapter 7. The Apostle Paul, at the close of his life, certainly he was one of the holiest men who ever lived, cries out,

O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me, and confesses the good that I would

I do not and the evil that I would not that I do. That's the testimony, the experiential testimony of every believing child of God.

Nevertheless, God worked in Paul and God works in all of his people so that we do not give ourselves over impenitently to sin.

If even one of God's children, like David, falls deeply into gross sins, God brings him to repentance, forgives him, and restores him to a godly walk.

That's the preservation of the Saints. We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says,

I have heard from federal vision advocates that they do not believe that a genuinely born -again person who is of the elect could lose their salvation.

What they do believe is that they can be removed from the covenant and they do not believe those two things are synonymous.

Can your guest please explain whether or not he agrees with that or not?

And that actually triggers something in my own mind. Dr. Engelsman, I'm sorry,

Professor Engelsman, I keep promoting you to a doctor. As you know,

I am a Reformed Baptist and Reformed Baptists, and pretty much

Baptists in general for the most part, I believe, unless they are from some heretical extreme of Arminianism, but at least

I could speak on behalf of most Reformed Baptists or all Reformed Baptists. They would say that only the elect are truly in the covenant.

They would say that, of course, there are people in our own congregations that make professions, they're baptized, they can even be elected to offices, even become elders, pastors, and so on, but then who later prove that their confession of faith was a charade or was just false.

They were perhaps self -deceived and they fall away never to return. We would say that those people were never truly in the covenant, just as we would say that they were never truly saved or born again.

Now, I think that there may be differences of opinion amongst Pedo - Baptists, but do you believe, as a

Pedo -Baptist, that all children, even who are baptized in infancy, are true members of the covenant, and can those children, either as children or later as adults, depart from the covenant?

Before I take up that pointed question, which is of great importance in this whole controversy, allow me to respond to the assertion made by your questioner in the course of his question.

I insist, and I can prove that from the writings, have proved that from the writings of the leading

Federal Vision theologians, the Federal Vision as taught by its leading theologians, and I'm talking now about Shepard and Schlissel and some others, the

Federal Vision teaches that one can be savingly united to Jesus Christ.

I'm virtually quoting the book or the section of a book that I have before my mind now.

One can be savingly united to Jesus Christ so that one begins to receive all of the blessings of salvation that are in Jesus Christ, including specifically and emphatically justification, and by failing to fulfill the conditions of maintaining covenant membership, lose it all and be damned and go to hell.

And in this connection, not only is there the closest relationship to the theology of the new perspective on Paul, but also the perverse doctrine of election of the

Federal Vision comes up. The Federal Vision men, the leaders, I don't know about everybody in the movement, but the leaders, and I can prove that and I would like the opportunity to prove that, have a theory and a theology about election that applies to such a vitally important passage as Ephesians 1 verse 4,

God has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that these teachings in the

New Testament about election are all concerning what they call covenant election, an election unto salvation that is conditional and that can be lost and that can turn into reprobation.

And now I'm quoting one of the most prominent Federal Vision men, election in the

Bible usually, if not always, and certainly with regard to such a passage as Ephesians 1 verse 4, is an election that can become reprobation.

So this disciple of the Federal Vision better investigate thoroughly the theology to which he has committed himself and study the leaders of this movement because they do teach the falling away of the saints, the turning of election into reprobation and the loss of salvation so that one is damned.

Now then, with regard to the matter of the covenant, Romans 9, which is generally and lightly regarded, lightly isn't very good term there, but anyway without much study, regarded as mainly about predestination, is in fact mainly about the covenant.

In fact, let's pick right where you left off there, Romans 9 is primarily about the covenant.

And we will return to our topic when we return from our station break right at that point.

This is a prolonged station break because the folks at Grace Life Radio 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida require a 12 -minute break between our two hours, so I hope that you're patient and please take the time to send in your questions now.

We do have a number of you still waiting online to have your questions asked and answered, and we will get to as many of you as time will permit, but our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. Don't go away, God willing we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio? We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you.

There are four ways you can help. First, do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise, and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

and click support at the top of the page. But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is now available for purchase at ironsharpensironradio .com.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the

Pastors Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

Pastors Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastors Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors.

Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering, understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results. Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and more.

For a clear, detailed, professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand to the test of time.

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981, 717 -697 -1981, or visit

SolidRockRemodeling .com. That's SolidRockRemodeling .com.

Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York, by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org. Chef Exclusive Catering is in South Central Pennsylvania.

Chef Exclusive's goal is to provide a dining experience that is sure to please any palate. Chef Damian White of Chef Exclusive is a graduate of the renowned

Johnson & Wales University with a degree in Culinary Arts and Applied Science. Chef Exclusive Catering's event center is newly designed with elegance and style and is available for small office gatherings, bridal showers, engagement parties, and rehearsal dinners.

Critics and guests alike acknowledge Chef Exclusive's commitment to exceeding even the highest expectations.

I know of their quality firsthand since Chef Exclusive catered my most recent Iron Sharpens Iron radio,

Pastor's Luncheon. For details, call 717 -388 -3000.

That's 717 -388 -3000. Or visit chefexclusive .com.

That's chefexclusive .com. Are you a

Christian looking to align your faith in finances? Then you'll want to check out Thriven Financial. We're not your typical financial services provider.

We're a not -for -profit Fortune 500 organization that helps our nearly 2 .4 million members be wise with money.

We provide guidance that reflects your values so you can protect what matters most.

We help members live generously and strengthen the communities where they live, work, and worship. Learn more about the

Thriven story by contacting me, Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant, at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433. We know we were made for so much more than ordinary life.

Lending faith, finances, and generosity. That's the Thriven story. We were made to thrive.

Welcome back. This is Chris Sarnes. And before we return to our discussion with David J.

Engelsma on his book, that is quite an excellent book, quite a thorough and highly documented book,

Gospel Truth of Justification. We have just some important announcements to make regarding special events that our sponsors, that some of our sponsors, are conducting in the not -so -distant future.

In fact, this weekend, Friday and Saturday, November 17th and 18th, the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology.

And remember, it's not the Reformed Town Conference on Quaker Theology, it's the

Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology. That is being held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

And the speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant. The theme is

For Still Our Ancient Foe, and that is obviously a reference to Satan from the classic

Reformation hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress. If you would like to register for the

Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology, go to AllianceNet .org,

AllianceNet .org, click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology.

And then coming up this, or should I say next month, in December, we have an event that a very dear friend of mine is speaking at,

Marcus A. McKnight III, attorney at law, who is also a former elder in the church where I am a member,

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, and he is currently a member of the West Shore Evangelical Free Church in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

He is going to be speaking on Joseph, the Quiet Hero of Christmas, and that is

Friday, December 8th, and that will begin at 1130 a .m.

and concludes at 1 p .m. at the Comfort Suites of Carlisle.

And for more information, you can call 717 -395 -5854, 717 -395 -5854, and you can ask for more information about the event at the

Comfort Suites on Friday, December 8th, featuring Marcus A.

McKnight III, attorney at law. And I hope to see you there because I plan to be there myself.

In fact, Marcus is going to be my guest the day after Thanksgiving, that's

Friday of next week. And coming up in January from the 17th through the 20th, the

G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia. The theme is

Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. The 17th is exclusively a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and the 18th through the 20th is in English.

And the speakers at the English Conference include Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bias, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace, and Justin Peters.

If you would like to register for the G3 Conference, which stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com. And I urge you, please, if you register for either of those two events that I mentioned, or actually all three of those events that I mentioned, please mention to the people organizing those events that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And now I have to perform the most uncomfortable task of my daily show, and that's begging you for money, rattling my tin cup, as it were, because the advertisers who have spent hard -earned money to keep this program on the air have urged me to make public appeals for donations because we have reached such a financially precarious position at this point in Iron Sharpens Iron's history.

I have resisted making public appeals for donations for years, and I have finally succumbed to the urging of my advertisers because we desperately need these donations if, indeed, we are to remain on the air.

If you love this program, you look forward to hearing the guests and topics, you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves, then please go to ironsharpensironradio .com.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Click on Support, and you will be given an address where you can mail a check made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for any amount that you can afford.

And as I try to remember to remind you every day, please never, ever, ever siphon money out of your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church where you are a member.

If you're not a member of a local Bible -believing church, you've got to rectify that situation and prayerfully seek out a good

Bible -believing church where you can submit yourself to the authority of the elders there. Otherwise, you are living in disobedience.

But if you are a member of a church, please don't siphon money away from them to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And never take food off of your family's dinner table if you're struggling to make ends meet.

But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, and those are two commands of Scripture to provide for your family and your church, then please consider also supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, clicking on Support, and mailing us a check to the address that you will see there.

If you'd like to advertise with us, whether it is your church, your parachurch organization, your business, your professional practice, like if you're a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, or whether it is just a special event that you're having, as long as whatever it is you're advertising is compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

It doesn't have to be identical to my theology, but it needs to be compatible. And please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and put advertising in the subject line, and we will be more than happy to work with you on launching an advertising campaign because we could surely use the advertising dollars to help us remain on the air.

Well, now we are back to our discussion with David Engelsma, and we are discussing his book,

The Gospel Truth of Justification, Proclaimed, Defended, Developed.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if it's about a personal or private matter. And before the break, Professor Engelsma, you were talking about the primary purpose that Paul wrote his epistle to the

Romans. If you could please, or specifically Romans 9, I think you were relating to.

You had a question before the break from someone who asked about the covenant in connection with the federal vision's teaching of the falling away of saints.

And in that question, your questioner spoke of an external covenant.

And I was responding to that by appealing to Romans 9.

Romans 9 is often regarded as the chapter mainly about predestination, and it certainly does teach predestination.

But there is a deeper biblical and theological truth that is at work in Romans 9, and that is the truth of the covenant of God.

The chapter begins with Paul's grief over the spiritual destruction of so many

Jews. And that brings to his mind the fact that in the

Old Testament, in Genesis 17, God promised to be the God of Abraham and his seed, his descendants.

And that raises the problem, can God's promise have failed?

Which is related to the question whether someone can be saved at one time and then lose that salvation and perish.

Paul answers that question and addresses that problem in verse 6 already. Not as though the word of God had taken none effect.

That word of God is the promise of God to Abraham, I will be the God of you and of your seed after you.

Paul denies that that promise was futile, that that promise failed. Which means that not one of those whom

God had in mind when he spoke of Abraham's seed have perished, even though many

Israelites have perished. It's never the case that the word of God had taken none effect.

The promise of God stands sure. The explanation is, according to Paul in verse 6, they are not all

Israel which are of Israel. So Paul himself makes a distinction between what we might call true

Israel and those who are merely associated with Israel, those who are of Israel.

That may be translated in terms of the covenant to the covenant itself, which is a bond of fellowship and which is saving, always saving, a distinction between the covenant and the sphere of the covenant.

There are children of Abraham who were in the sphere of the covenant, but that's distinguished from those who were the true covenant members to whom the promise of God was made and concerning whom the promise of God did take effect in their salvation.

And it's in that context that Paul brings up the well -known incident or example of Jacob and Esau.

Both of them were children of believing parents. Both of them were circumcised with the sign of the covenant.

But the predestination of God applies to the sphere of the covenant.

We would say today the sphere of baptized persons or baptized children of believers in particular.

Not all are the objects of God's promise, I will be your God and save you, because not all are elect.

Election governs the covenant, and election governs salvation in the covenant, and election governs the promise of the covenant.

Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. There's God's predestination, and that does not only apply to people on the mission field, that applies to the sphere of the covenant.

Some of the physical children of believing parents, as also some adults who are baptized, are elect, and others are non -elect or reprobate.

And the promise of God refers to and the covenant of God pertains to the elect, either on the mission field or in the sphere of the covenant.

So when Paul goes on to say, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, or God says,

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and whom I will I harden, verse 18 of Romans 9, that's with direct application to the covenant and to the sphere of the covenant.

He doesn't have mercy on all those who are baptized, but all those upon whom

God has mercy, so that he begins their salvation, he preserves unto eternal life, the covenant and its promise are sure.

I think that answers what your questioner was driving at. So to recap, and I just want to make sure that I understood you correctly, are you saying that you would agree on at least the point that Reformed Baptists adhere to, that to truly be in the covenant, the new covenant, where Christ is serving as the mediator between God and man for all who is in the covenant, that that membership in that true covenant is only for those who are of the elect?

Yes. Okay. All right. Because it seems as if, from my conversations with some

Pato Baptists who are outside of federal vision, who are more of the historic or typical

Westminster confession or three forms of unity advocates, it seems that some of them are saying that you can be a true member of the covenant and be a reprobate, a true member of the covenant and be a reprobate.

So you would disagree with that? By the way, do you acknowledge that there are Pato Baptists who hold that view?

I am, and the federal vision raises an issue that Presbyterians and Reformed who hold a view of the covenant, as you've just described, must pay attention to.

The federal vision rises out of a doctrine of the covenant that holds that all the children, all the baptized children, are in the covenant of grace, objects of God's saving grace and even participants to some extent in the work of salvation.

The federal vision develops that covenant view to its logical end in denial of justification by faith alone and all of the so -called five points of Calvinism.

The federal vision is a warning to those who hold the view of the covenant that you do that that covenant view is erroneous and dangerous.

Yes, not the covenant view that I hold. No, I'm not talking about that.

So this is interesting that there are differences even amongst those who are outside of the federal vision on this issue on membership in the true covenant.

By the way, I forgot to mention that both our anonymous listener in Suffolk County and RJ in White Plains, you have both won a free copy of the book that we are discussing,

Gospel Truth of Justification Proclaimed, Defended, Developed, by our guest David J.

Engelsma, compliments of our friends at Reformed Free Publishing Association.

And if you want this book, you've got to give us your full mailing address, so please email it to me as soon as possible so our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

can ship those books out to you. We have a listener.

Oh, by the way, before I go to this other listener in Slovenia, you said that you wanted to offer proof, and I assume what you meant by that is you were going to actually quote, perhaps, advocates of the federal vision, that they actually are teaching that you can lose your salvation?

Yes. Okay. The trouble is that it would take me a little while to find that quotation in the volumes that I have in my library, and that would mean some dead air for you, so I probably shouldn't look it up right now.

What we could do is when I get to our final break, you could do that, because there will be a break in about 15 minutes, a little less than 15 minutes.

All right. Okay. We have Joe in Slovenia who says,

Please ask Brother David to address what seems to be the belief of a prominent

Reformed individual, and I'm not going to mention the name that he provides, because I don't know for certain that what he is saying about this individual is a fact, so I'd rather not mention his name.

And this is outside of the topic of federal vision, by the way. This belief by a prominent

Reformed individual, teaching that initial justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, but final salvation is based on both faith and works.

It also seems that this individual's teaching on this topic has nothing to do with the true faith necessarily producing good works.

There is no argument about that. Is this individual's teaching, the way that I've described it, a semi -Pelagian

Romish view of salvation? That view, as your questioner described it, is classic authoritative federal vision teaching, and also exact teaching of the new perspective on Paul.

It couldn't be put more succinctly or accurately. Our present justification, many will grudgingly acknowledge, not too happily, is by faith alone, but the final justification and the final judgment is by faith and by the good works of the sinner, so that final salvation depends not only upon the obedience of Christ, but also upon the personal and individual obedience of the person throughout his lifetime.

Now I want to call attention to the fact that even if there is some grudging admission that justification in time and history is by faith alone, that admission doesn't amount to a hill of beans because what's all important, what's decisive is the justification at the final judgment.

That decides everything decisively. And the truth of the matter is, with regard to justification, and I have an entire chapter pointing this out in the book that we're talking about, the

Gospel Truth of Justification, the truth of the matter is that justification always, now and in the final judgment, is by faith and by faith alone, which is to say that the righteousness of the elect believing child of God in the final judgment as tonight is the obedience of Jesus Christ in our stead.

He bore our punishment fully and he obeyed the law of God fully in our place so that his righteousness, both negative, so to say, and positive, is the complete, perfect, and satisfactory righteousness of the child of God.

Active and passive obedience is the way. Active and passive, all right, which we receive by faith alone in him.

Jesus Christ is our righteousness which we receive by faith alone in him.

Now, in objection to that position, and the federal vision men vehemently object to what

I've just said, arguing instead that the final judgment's justification is by faith and by our own good works, their objection is based on the many passages in the

Bible which I acknowledge that in the final judgment we are judged according to our works.

But it's one thing to be judged according to our works, which is going to be the case, and it's another thing to be judged on the basis of our works, which is false.

To be judged according to our works simply means that our good works will appear in the final judgment as demonstrating that we were, in fact, saved and justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

In other words, we come back, really, to what we started out with on this program, that our good works are the demonstration of our justification and not the ground or basis of our justification.

We will be judged according to our works. Our good works will be brought up to show the truth and reality of our justification by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

But they are not going to be the basis, and they will not be the righteousness that gains us entrance into heaven.

And if I had to face the final judgment, I'm 78 years old, and these things come more and more experientially home to a believer the older he gets.

If I had to think about standing in the final judgment, in which even my best work, whatever that may be, would have to be the basis of God's declaration over me,

Righteous, enter thou into the joy of thy Lord, I would be terrified at the prospect of a final judgment because even the best work that I've ever performed is imperfect.

And the God of the judgment, that's what people forget. That's what theologians forget. They don't know who

God is. God is awesome in his holiness and his righteousness. He's not satisfied with any imperfection, only the righteousness of Christ.

The perfect obedience of Jesus Christ is our righteousness, and that I'm holding on to with all my faith.

And I'm going to check all my good works at the door of the room where the final judgment takes place one day.

I'm not going to present a single one. God may bring them up, and he will, to reward them, but I won't appeal to them as the basis of my righteousness and my claim to inherit eternal life.

I'm going to have one plea. God be merciful to me, a sinner, and I cling to Jesus Christ by true faith.

So there's a big difference between being judged according to our works and being saved according to our works.

I would say the difference is between being judged according to our works and judged on the basis of our works.

The former is false. The second is true. Our works will be a kind of standard, demonstrating the reality of our justification by faith alone.

And the root of your belief is what has been called the great exchange, correct, that our sins have been imputed to Christ, the sins of his elect people have been imputed to Christ on Calvary, and his righteousness has been imputed to us.

That's correct. Plus, his lifelong obedience. I maintain that his active obedience is also part of the righteousness of Christ that we receive through faith alone.

And here, by the way, because we can't lose sight of the federal vision heresy, the federal vision men will grant that the passive obedience of Christ, took away our punishment, but they insist that his active obedience did nothing more than qualify him to suffer his passive obedience.

They deny that his active obedience was obedience that he rendered to the law in the place of his people, and that that active obedience is also imputed to us for our righteousness.

And the intention with that denial is that we have to accomplish our own active obedience.

There you're back to good works. Our good works play a part in God's justification of us.

We have to do them in order to accomplish our own righteousness as far as active obedience to the law is concerned.

That puts them in a desperate position, I hope. I even pray for them that they don't stroll into the final judgment waving their puny and pathetic good works as their active obedience that earns eternal life for them.

If they do, they're damned. And we're going to go to our final break, and now would be a good time,

Professor Engelsman, to look up those quotes that you had in mind that you wanted to... If I can find them.

Okay, and we're going to go to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air, and there still are several of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered, if anybody intends to get in line behind them,

I would do so right now by sending us an email at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter over which you are asking. Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be back after these messages. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the

London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do, than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

TV program entitled, Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org,

that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round

Bible conference and retreat center nestled on the Jersey Shore. Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.

For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars. Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples, singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.

Ninety miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington, and easily accessible, scores of notable

Christian groups frequently plan conferences at Harvey Cedars, like The Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade, and the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org.

hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689.

609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching

God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant. It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing. We're a diverse family of all ages.

Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play, and together. Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the

Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio.

www .wlie540am .com

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor. Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you. There are four ways you can help.

First, do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise, and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

and click support at the top of the page. But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio One sure way all

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers. I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use batterydepot .com

for all your battery needs. At batterydepot .com, they're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script. They're sticking it to the man. In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new, dependable, and affordable.

Ordering from batterydepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh, out -of -the -box batteries you can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones, cell phones, radios, PCs, laptops, tablets, baby monitors, hearing aids, smoke detectors, credit card readers, digital cameras, electronic cigarettes,

GPSs, MP3 players, watches, or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries, go to batterydepot .com.

Next day shipping available. All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and 6 -month warranties.

Call 866 -403 -3768. That's 866 -403 -3768.

Or go to batterydepot .com. That's batterydepot .com. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please don't forget

Solid Ground Christian Books when doing any of your holiday shopping. Why not give gifts that actually made lead by God's sovereign grace, those whom you love to eternal life.

And Solid Ground Christian Books has a numerous, a real thoroughly

Biblical and historically faithful collection of books that are written by not only giants of the past but of the present, that are committed to the truths of the

Protestant Reformation as accurately defended from the Holy Scriptures, the inerrant

Word of God. And by helping Solid Ground Christian Books, by purchasing books from them, you are helping

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio remain on the air because they are, as you know, a sponsor of our program.

And they have been slowly rising up from a lull in sales that they've experienced lately.

So I would appreciate you helping them out to get completely out of that lull by going to Solid -Ground -Books .com

Solid -Ground -Books .com and purchasing as many books as you can from them.

And by the way, I want to thank those of you who have already sent me emails recently telling me that you have been purchasing books from Solid Ground Christian Books to help them out of their slump.

And also from our friends at CVBBS .com who are sponsors of this program as well.

In fact, you can purchase Solid Ground Christian Books titles from CVBBS because Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and CVBBS .com

is not. They are a book distributor. So you can order books by Solid Ground Christian Books from CVBBS .com

and kill two birds with one stone. But we are now back with our guest today, Professor David J.

Engelsma. He has been discussing and will continue to discuss for the remaining 25 minutes of our program

Gospel Truth of Justification. Proclaimed, defended, and developed his latest book by Reform Free Publishing Association.

And if you want to join us on the air with a question of your own, you better do so now because we are rapidly running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com Dr. Engelsma, do you have any quotations that you care to provide?

I have located two quotations that bear strongly on the subject we have been discussing.

And that is the doctrine of the federal vision that God establishes his saving covenant with everyone who is baptized, particularly now every baptized child.

And that implies, as they themselves draw out, that it's possible to lose salvation.

I'm going to quote first from Steve Wilkins, a prominent spokesman of the federal vision.

And this is part of a speech he gave at what is known as the Knox Colloquium.

That was a gathering of leading federal vision men and leading

Reform theologians at Knox Seminary, I believe, in Florida. This is the quotation of Wilkins.

I quote, Covenant, therefore, is a gracious relationship And he's referring to a relationship between God and every baptized child.

I continue the quotation. To be in covenant is to have the treasures of God's mercy and grace and the love which he has for his own son given to you, that is, every baptized child, including those who perish.

But the covenant is not unconditional. It requires persevering faithfulness. That's the end of the quotation.

And then Wilkins added that it's very well possible that one who is graciously united to Christ and was the object of God's love forfeits all that was his by virtue of his union with Christ in covenant.

That's Steve Wilkins. And the next quotation is from John Barak in a book.

This was an audio tape at the Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Church in Monroe, Louisiana.

That was an important meeting. That was the birthplace of Federal Vision, wasn't it? What? That was the birthplace of the

Federal Vision movement. ...regarded as the birthplace of the Federal Vision as a movement. Now listen to this quotation from John Barak.

God gave them, and he's talking about those in the sphere of the covenant who fall away and perish everlastingly, baptized children in particular.

God gave them genuine promises that are just as real, just as dependable, and just as trustworthy as the promises he gave to people who do persevere to the end.

He gave them real promises of salvation. He united them to Christ in whom alone there is salvation, and they themselves really rejected it because they didn't receive the promises mixed with faith.

That's Barak. And then Wilkins, in a book called Auburn Avenue Theology, said this,

I quote, Those who ultimately prove to be reprobate may be in covenant with God. They may enjoy for a season the blessings of the covenant, including the forgiveness of sins, adoption, and I interject that you will recognize that that's justification, possession of the kingdom,

I continue the quotation, sanctification, et cetera, and yet apostatize and fall short of the grace of God.

What follows in the quotation is in italics by Wilkins.

It's his emphasis. The apostate doesn't forfeit apparent blessings that were never his in reality, but real blessings that were his in covenant with God.

End of quote. Now that proves what I was contending that the bad covenant doctrine of the federal vision of conditional salvation in the covenant is the cause and source of their bad doctrine of justification by faith.

It's justification by faith and works because man must obtain or earn his own salvation, and if he doesn't, which is a possibility, he can lose the salvation that God began in him.

That's false doctrine. Yeah, in fact, that really clarifies some issues because the men that I know that are paedo -baptists who believe that their baptized children are truly members of the covenant do not believe that that automatically gives them the other issues that were mentioned by Steve Wilkins such as adoption and forgiveness and things like that.

Those are obviously things that historically

Reformed people believe only those who are of the elect have received those blessings.

Correct? That's correct. That's why I said the whole doctrine of salvation by grace that's characteristic not only of the

Reformed faith but of the Protestant Reformation as taught by Luther is at stake in this controversy with the federal vision.

Yeah, and I might add to that that years ago on my program I had a debate.

It wasn't as long as I was hoping it would be because my friend Steve Schlissel arrived to the studio late but he had a debate with another friend of mine,

John Otis, who wrote a book called Danger in the Camp, a very lengthy and exhaustively researched refutation of federal vision.

And Steve made it clear during his debate with John that he was demanding that John prove justification by faith alone from the

Bible without using it was kind of an interesting caveat he did not want

John to use Romans or Galatians to defend his view.

But the fact of the matter is though Steve was not proving that federal visionists believe in justification by faith alone.

He was demanding that his opponent prove justification by faith alone from the Bible giving the obvious conclusion to the listener that he didn't believe in it.

Yes. And, well, we do... Schlissel is a rare one.

I imagine he would debate somebody on a matter of creation by saying prove creation but don't refer to Genesis.

Well, Steve does believe in creation at least as long as I've known him. He very strongly believed in creation.

In fact, a young earth. Unless something has changed, I don't know about it. We have a listener.

Let's see. Aaron in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He has a question that I think is not regarding the federal vision.

He says, I have a question for Professor David Engelsma. What is his judgment on the definition of justification of Dr.

Mark Jones, author of Antinomianism, the Reformed Faith's Unwelcomed Guest?

I don't know if you're familiar with Mark Jones or that book, but do you have an answer for Aaron in Grand Rapids, Michigan?

Would you repeat that question, please? Yes. He says what in his judgment, meaning your judgment, on the definition of justification of Dr.

Mark Jones, author of Antinomianism, the Reformed Faith's Unwelcomed Guest?

I guess he's asking if you agree with the definition of justification that Dr. Mark Jones has included in this book that he wrote.

I'm not familiar with the book. I'm not familiar with Antinomianism, the Reformed Faith's Unwelcomed Guest, but perhaps you are.

I am familiar with the book, but I do not carry his definition of the covenant around in my head.

I wish he had quoted Mark Jones' definition of the covenant. If I'm going to critique a definition, even if I have a general sense of what it is,

I should have the exact wording of the definition before me, and alas, I do not have that.

So I refrain from responding to that question for that reason.

I understand, and so Aaron, if you're listening, and I hope you're still listening, please send us an email if you'd like your question to be adequately answered.

Send us another email that includes a quote in context by Dr.

Mark Jones, author of Antinomianism, the Reformed Faith's Unwelcomed Guest.

And for our listeners who are unfamiliar with that term, Antinomianism, that is lawlessness, correct?

Antinomianism is the heresy of teaching that the law of God is not the standard of the life of the saved

Christian. And Antinomianism has been condemned as a heresy by the

Reformed Faith, by all those who profess Calvinism. And when Antinomianism tries to conclude from salvation by grace alone to the position that we may live as we please, it ignores, as I've said before, that Jesus Christ is a complete

Savior. He saves from the guilt of sin and from the power of sin. And such is his justification of us that it's a powerful justification.

It frees the sinner in his own consciousness from the judgment of God. And the response of the

Christian to that freeing of him from the punishment of sin is gratitude to God that delights to obey the law of God.

But literally, the word means against the law, and it's the teaching that the saved

Christian does not live according to the law of God, with the law of God as the standard of his life.

Well, thank you, Aaron. And as I said, please send in a clarifying question with more information so that our guest,

David J. Engelsma, can appropriately and adequately answer you. And by the way, you've also won a free copy of Gospel Truth of Justification, proclaimed, defended, and developed by our guest, compliments of our friends at Reform Free Publishing Association.

And it will be shipped to you, once we have your mailing address, by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

cvbbs .com. And that antinomianism, by the way, that would be a perfect description for folks that we mentioned at the beginning of the program who, on the flip side or the polar opposite of Rome's heresy, which claims that man's works must be added to the finished work of Christ on Calvary, this would be the opposite view, that there are no works even needed for evidence or fruit of a person truly justified.

I do treat antinomianism in the book that you have mentioned and that you have been giving away, and I treat that heresy repeatedly in connection with its claim to be the logical conclusion of justification by faith alone.

So I treat that false doctrine in the book. And we have

B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know has there ever been notable figures within church history prior to the

Auburn Avenue conferences who have believed and taught nearly an identical teaching as the

Federal Vision holds to before this became known and popular under the title of Federal Vision?

There have been errorists ever since the Reformation.

I'm leaving the Roman Catholic Church now out of view and the predecessors of the teaching of the

Council of Trent. There have been prominent teachers in the sphere of the

Christian Church who have taught justification by faith and by works. One who comes immediately to mind is the

English theologian Richard Baxter, but there have been others as well.

And inasmuch as the error of the Federal Vision is the logical and inevitable fruit of the teaching of a conditional covenant, there certainly have been prominent

Reformed theologians who have taught the conditional covenant while trying to avoid the implications of a denial of all of the doctrines of grace and of justification by faith alone in particular.

Norman Shepard, who would be the outstanding representative of the theology of the

Federal Vision, himself explicitly appealed to the covenant theology of the

Reformed churches in the Netherlands, liberated, and their daughter churches, the

Canadian Reformed churches, as the source of his denial of justification by faith alone.

Because those churches taught and still teach a conditional covenant, a covenant in which salvation depends upon man's faith as an act and upon the good works that the sinner performs for salvation.

So yes, this teaching is not altogether new and strange. It didn't drop out of the blue.

By the way, B .B., you've also won a free copy of Gospel Truth of Justification proclaimed, defended, developed by our guest

David J. Engelsma, compliments of Reformed Free Publishing Association. And if you provide your full mailing address, it will be shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Books, servicecvbbs .com.

And by the way, I just want to let our listeners know that if you already won this book the last time

Professor Engelsma was on, you are not going to be getting a second copy.

So just keep that in mind. I don't have those facts right in front of me right now as to who won the book the last time.

But we will, God willing, have Professor Engelsma on in the future to discuss other books of his.

So you can be sure that if you're a first -time winner of his books, you can get them.

By the way, going back to the list of things that was provided by our anonymous listener, the list of things by the federal vision advocate that he mentions,

Luke Neuismann, and I apologize again for the mispronunciation, but when he says that no federal visionist has been tried in an ecclesiastical court, wasn't

Norman Shepard tried in an ecclesiastical court? And do federal visionists universally claim him as their own?

I recall that part of the statements of your questioner, and I was tempted to comment on that, but I restrained myself, and now that you put the direct question to me,

I'm going to comment on that. The fact is that the federal vision has been tried in ecclesiastical courts, both in the

General Assembly of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and in an ecclesiastical court of the

Presbyterian Church in America. Norman Shepard and his theology were tried as also another representative of the federal vision that was teaching in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and in both of those cases, and there may have been more in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church that I'm not mentioning, but in those two dramatic instances, the theology of the federal vision was acquitted, and the

Protestants who opposed the federal vision were denied. The same thing happened in the

PCA. That may have been a trial of Wilkins.

I'm not sure of that. It lives in my mind that Wilkins was the theologian who was tried, and the

PCA approved, or at least did not condemn, Wilkins' theology, so that amounted to an approval of the theology of the federal vision, both in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Presbyterian Church in America. The United Reformed Churches had a case also in Canada, and the theology of the federal vision was also acquitted, or the theologian was acquitted there, and the theology was thus approved in the

United Reformed Churches. It's astounding to me that none of the reputedly conservative

Reformed and Presbyterian Churches in North America, none of them has found within itself the orthodoxy or the courage, whatever the case may be, to condemn this egregious false doctrine denying the fundamental doctrine of the

Protestant Reformation, which all of us are supposed to be celebrating in A .D. 2017.

By the way, years ago on my old show, when the federal vision movement was really starting to become more popular in the public eye,

I was assured by an Orthodox Presbyterian minister that that denomination did officially declare federal vision as heresy.

Was he misled? I'm just confused here. Whether they took decisions in position papers, which don't amount to a hill of beans, the fact is that when cases were brought, official cases charging heresy, and by laymen, that's an interesting thing too.

Not a single clergyman, not a single professor of theology has made an issue of this.

All of these cases were brought by laypeople. The official church courts refused to condemn the federal vision theology.

That's shameful. It's also fatal. But the

Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, they dismissed Norman Shepard, didn't they?

Isn't that a cowardly way to deal with a heretic? Well, I mean, you're firing him.

I suppose they gave him a going -away present as well. That's cowardly behavior, when you have a heretic in your midst, and the heresy involves such an important doctrine as justification by faith alone, you don't sweep it under the rug by dismissing him.

I wouldn't be proud of that action if I were party to that decision. Well, obviously you would think that that would be an ultimate act that had to be performed, is the dismissal of somebody who was unrepentant over such a thing.

You don't dismiss a man, you discipline a man. Presbyterian churches have discipline, and it's required by the church order of all

Reformed churches that among the sins that require discipline is heresy.

So I don't believe that dismissal is a proper action with regard to dealing with a false teacher.

Well, we are going to be, God willing, having Professor David J. Engelsma back on Monday, November 27th, from 4 to 6 p .m.

Eastern Time, so mark your calendars, because we're going to continue the discussion of his book, Gospel Truth of Justification, Proclaimed, Defended, Developed, and we look forward to Professor Engelsma returning.

And I know that the website of the

Reform Free Publishing Association, who gave us these books to give away today, that website is

RFPA, that's Reform Free Publishing Association, rfpa .org.

Do you have any other contact information you care to give, Professor Engelsma? What's that? Do you have any other contact information you care to give, other than the rfpa .org?

That's adequate. Great. Well, I want to thank you so much for being our guest today. I look forward to your returning later on this month.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests next time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. God bless.