November 16, 2017 Show with David J. Engelsma on “The Gospel Truth of Justification: Proclaimed, Defended, Developed (Part 2 of 3)”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 16th day of November 2017.

I'm so delighted to have back on the program a returning guest David J. Angles, ma. He's an author a professor of dogmatics and Old Testament studies for 20 years at Protestant Reform Seminary in Granville, Michigan and emeritus professor since the synod of 2008.

He is the editor or has been the editor of the standard-bearer magazine from 1988 to 2002. He's a lecturer and preacher touring in North America and throughout the British Isles on behalf of the British reformed fellowship, which is devoted to spread and Defend the reform faith in the United Kingdom today.

We are addressing part two of a discussion We began back in September on his latest book the gospel truth of justification proclaimed Defended developed and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio David J. Angles, ma.

I'm glad to be with you again, Chris.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. And please give us your first name at least your city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

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Justification by Faith Alone and the Necessity of Good Works

We the last time we were together We discussed basically the biblical definition of justification and we contrasted the biblical definition of justification with that of the Church of Rome especially what Rome dogmatically declared their Understanding or their dogma of just a justification to be at the Council of Trent and At a at a council which they also anathematized those who had a Protestant belief in the topic of justification that was by a Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, but if you could just summarize What we discussed the last time just so our listeners who didn't hear you the first time If you could summarize what the historically Protestant and of course biblical definition of justification is.

Justification which is a major theme content of the entire declaring the guilty damn-worthy sinner and God does forgiveness of meaning.

Now there are Roman Catholics who will say that Works are required. Not only their own works, but the Treasury of Merit where the works of Christ and the Saints are in store for them to be accredited to them to enter through the gates of heaven after They die.

Of course in Roman Catholic theology the vast majority of people have to enter through purgatory first which we as Protestants believe is a dangerous heresy.

But.

Some people On our side or should I say those who claim to be on our side of the Reformation? They would say that Works need not even exist in The life of a Christian. They will believe that and some of them will go as far as to say that you and I would be committing or teaching and believing in heresy for saying that works are even a necessary fruit for one to be deemed a Christian, but we are not saying at all that That works are not to be present In the life of a person who was born again there you're not to be Required fruits for someone to be viewed as a Christian.

Don't we believe that that in that sense works are necessary?

With regard to that issue that holiness is the hell and damnation and in Jesus Christ is one whom the Spirit makes in that gratitude which amounts to keep going on living and.

And.

Federal Vision, the New Perspective on Paul, and Covenant Membership

We are going to be discussing some modern heresies, although. Heresies typically even if they are in some way unique in a modern form that they typically have some kind of root in the past as they say nothing is new under the Sun, but.

The first of which we are going to be addressing today. It's it's. I'm never easy. Criticizing friends of mine, especially those that I have known for many years decades even but I Have known some professing brothers and sisters from back in the day before the federal vision movement manifested itself and became a movement.

And they would later come to join this movement and most of those who I strongly admire and value in my life who are Christian mentors, especially those in the reformed faith have been very critical of this federal vision movement.

Ranging in varying degrees of condemnation against it. Especially since it is not as easy to figure out as some might seem because it is not it doesn't seem to be monolithic. Where you have different?

Understandings of justification and different understandings of other teachings. Involved in that one movement, for instance, I know that a friend of mine that I've known going back to the 1980s. Steve Schlissel is considered one of the The first leaders of the federal vision movement and Steve Schlissel does not at least the last time I spoke to him.

He did not believe in infant communion or pedo communion where it seems that the majority of those involved in the federal vision do believe in the practice of infant communion, but. Tell us something about your understanding of the federal vision.

How it started and what are the primary tenets of this movement?

I.

Recognize whom I would class a fundamental error that regard. Now going back to the new perspective on Paul.

I have had numerous conversations with advocates of federal vision and even though some of them have varying degrees of Similarity with the new perspective and openly in varying degrees agree with NT right on some of his primary doctrines under that umbrella of new perspective, they most of them adamantly say that They are two different things that you cannot blur the distinction between federal vision and the new perspective on Paul.

How do you respond? Two individuals will make that statement.

What. The relation and the new person make any difference? We have an anonymous listener.

From Suffolk County, New York and he says I too have been confused by those who I know who Adhere to what is called the federal vision or at least claim to. The reason being is that I have heard some who more resemble what you have been describing.

But others who seem very different. In fact, there is one individual that I know who has referred me to a A website of a federal vision advocate named Luke Newsma, and I don't know if I'm mispronouncing that you you you being Dutch Professor angles mud might know how to pronounce this but it's n ie you WSMA.

And.

Luke Newsma says that Federal vision is not Salvation by works. It is not justification by works. It is not baptismal regeneration. It is not a denial of assurance of salvation. It is not the new perspective on Paul.

It is not a denial of classic reform theology as found in the Westminster or Heidelberg Catechisms. It is not a denial of the imputation of Christ's righteousness and is not a heresy taught by men Who have been tried in an ecclesiastical court?

Are you familiar with this federal visionist named Luke Newsma?

And what do you have to say to what he openly states in his own writings with regard to the note? Well, let me ask the listener or not our anonymous listener in Suffolk County if you could.

Provide us any information on that. We will read that as well.

Let me say one thing about that in connection with what he's saying. You read those names or list them. The outstanding names as they come to mind are Norman Shepard Steve Wilkerson.

Yes, Wilkinson. I can't remember how to pronounce his name. And I happen to know for our listeners benefit in Suffolk County, New York our anonymous listener. There was one of the things he listed or that Luke Newsma Listed here.

It is Harris. It is not a terror heresy taught by men Who have been tried in an ecclesiastical court? I see a tried that's a key word because I know that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church According to my friends in that denomination have said that they as a denomination have declared it To be heresy, but I guess the this the key word here is as possibly accurate that there not have been specific men tried in a an ecclesiastical court.

But anyway We're gonna be right back after our first Station break if anybody would like to join us on the air. Whether you agree with the federal vision or whether you Adamantly oppose it either way.

Whether you agree with our guest or whether you adamantly disagree with our guest. We would love to hear from you with your questions at chris arnzen at gmail .com chris Arn z n gmail .com. And I want all of our listeners who may be advocates of federal vision to know that.

I do intend at some point to have a debate on Iron Trip and Zion radio between the two opposing sides one that I hope will be conducted with a charity and a Decency in order not a shouting match or a hate-filled Exhibition exhibition.

But.

Pray that that can be developed in the not-so-distant future, but we're gonna be right back after these messages. So don't go away. Tired of bop store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.

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John Calvin a pilgrim's life and that is written by Herman J Selder wheeze and perhaps you can correct me on that one as well. Dr. Angus. I think that's Duchess as well, isn't it? Seldon heist. Oh Seldon heist.

Okay, and this book has been praised by Some very notable reform scholars including at least one from your denomination dr. Angles my and Is he even been praised by some Arminians who although they did not?

Change their theology as a result of reading it. They have a much higher view of John Calvin as a man than they previous had previously had before reading it having adopted unfortunately before reading this book a Slanderous caricature of the man John Calvin.

But this is as I said, it retails for $25 and you'll get it absolutely free of charge. If you purchase $50 or more worth of books and Bibles and other Christian materials at CV BBS comm and that number once again is eight hundred six five six zero two three one eight hundred six five six zero two three one and We are back now with our discussion on a very important issue Gospel truth of justification proclaimed defended.

Developed by our guest David J angles ma if anybody would like to join us on the air. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name. Your city and state in your country of residence if you Live outside the USA and only remain anonymous.

If it's about a personal and private matter, and then we do have another email from that same anonymous listener in Suffolk County, New York. He says Sorry that I did not include this in my last email, but Luke Newsma does have the positive things that federal vision actually does support according to him and they are an emphasis on biblical definitions an emphasis on the external covenant a different definition of Christian an Emphasis on strong church authority.

An emphasis on the sacraments particularly baptism another aspect of the church a global ecclesiology and another aspect to election. Obviously those other aspects aren't really Defined in this list that we've been given.

But if you could respond to any of that if you want me to repeat them one by one or if you want to just Respond to this as a general response.

I'm aware and I might mention in that connection. We're going back to.

For those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with the term perseverance and preservation of the Saints basically, it is Very commonly known in some circles as eternal security, but to those of us who are reformed Although we view the term Eternal security as something that is a true statement if you are saved you are indeed eternally secure.

But the the term eternal security is inadequate. It's not descriptive enough and we believe that the reason why Christians are Eternally secure it is because we are Preserved by God himself. We persevere because we are preserved by God himself and that does not mean that we are sinless.

Am I correct? I mean we no reformed person who is faithful not only to the Bible but to the creeds and confession of the Reformation would say that a man can ever achieve a sinless state on this earth as John Wesley posed as a possible occurrence a theory if you will.

I don't know if John Wesley ever claimed that he had achieved that but but We do not claim any type of sinless perfection. Am I right? We have RJ and White Plains, New York. Who says I have heard from federal vision advocates?

That they do not believe that a genuinely born-again person who is of the elect could lose their salvation. What they do believe is that they can be removed from the Covenant and they do not believe those two things are synonymous.

Can your guests please? Explain whether or not he agrees with that or not and What that actually triggers is something in my own mind Dr. Angles, I'm sorry professor angles. Not. I keep promoting you to a doctor.

As you know, I am a Reformed Baptist and Reformed Baptists. And pretty much Baptist in general for the most part. I believe unless they are From some heretical extreme of Arminianism, but at least I could speak on behalf of most Reformed Baptists or all Reformed Baptists.

They would say that Only the elect are truly in the Covenant. They would say that. Of course, there are people in our own congregations that make professions. They're baptized. They can even be elected to offices even become elders Pastors and so on but then who later proved that their confession of faith was a Charade or was just false it would hurt they were perhaps self-deceived and they've they fall away never to return.

We would say that those people were never truly in the Covenant just as we would say that they were never truly Saved or born again. Now. I think that there may be differences of opinion amongst Pato Baptists on this issue.

But do you believe as a Pato Baptist that? All children even who are baptized in infancy are True members of the Covenant and can those children either as children or later as adults depart from the Covenant.

Before I take up that pointed question of great importance and things in the New Testament into reprobation. And now I'm quoting one of the most prominent federal vision men. It can become reprobate falling away of the same turning of election into mainly about in fact.

Let's pick right where you left off there. Romans 9 is primarily about the Covenant. And we will return to our topic when we return to from our spit our station break. Right at that point. This is a prolonged station break because the folks at Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida require a 12-minute break between our two hours, so I hope that you're patient and Please take the time to send in your questions.

Now we do have a number of you still waiting online To have your questions asked and answered and we will get to as many of you as time will permit. But our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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The Covenant, Election, and Reprobation in Romans 9

Welcome back. This is Chris Sarnes and before we return to our discussion with David J angles ma on his book. That is quite an excellent book quite a thorough and highly documented book. Gospel truth of justification.

We have just some important announcements to make regarding special events. That our sponsors that some of our sponsors are conducting in the not-so-distant future. In fact this weekend Friday and Saturday, November 17th and 18th the Alliance of confessing evangelicals is having their Quaker town conference on reform theology.

And Remember, it's not the reform town conference on Quaker theology. It's the Quaker town conference on reform theology that is being held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker town, Pennsylvania.

And the speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant. The theme is for still our ancient foe and that is obviously a reference to Satan from the classic Reformation hymn by Martin Luther a mighty fortress.

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This or should I say next month in December? We have an event that a very dear friend of mine is speaking at Marcus a McKnight the third attorney at law who is also a former elder in the church where I am a member Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle.

And he is currently a member of the West Shore Evangelical Free Church in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. He is going to be speaking on Joseph the quiet hero of Christmas, and that is Friday December 8th and that will begin at 1130 a .m.

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Featuring Marcus a McKnight the third attorney at law and I hope to see you there because I plan to be there myself in fact Marcus is going to be my guest of the day after Thanksgiving. That's Friday of next week.

Then coming up in January from the 17th through the 20th the g3 conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia. The theme is knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship. The 17th is exclusively a Spanish speaking edition of the conference.

And the 18th through the 20th is in English and the speakers at the English conference includes Stephen Lawson, Votie Balcombe, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, HB Charles jr. Tim Chalies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askew, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Krueger, David Miller, Paul Tripp Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace and Justin Peters if you would like to register for the g3 conference.

Which stands for grace gospel and glory. Go to g3 conference calm. G3 conference calm. And I urge you please if you register for either of those two events that I mentioned or actually all three of those events that I mentioned Please mention to the people organizing those events that you heard about them from Chris Arnson on iron sharpens iron radio and now I have to perform the most uncomfortable task of my daily show and that's Begging you for money rattling my tin cup as it were because the advertisers who have spent Hard-earned money to keep this program on the air.

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Well now we are back to our discussion with David angles ma and we are discussing his book the gospel truth of justification Proclaimed offended developed and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And give us your first name city and state and country of residence. If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous. It's about a personal and private matter and before the break a Professor angles ma you were talking about the primary purpose that Paul Wrote his epistle to the Romans if you could please or specifically Romans 9.

I think you were you were relating to in connection with Saints and In that that brings to his we can not affect that not one of in though many Israelite It's never the case that the Word of God had taken on effect.

The explanation is of course, they are not all Israel. Which our self makes a distinction between what we might call to covenant and the nation of God.

So so to to recap and I just want to make sure that I understood you correctly. Are you saying that you would agree on at least? The point that reformed Baptists adhere to that to truly be in a in the covenant the new covenant Where Christ is serving as the mediator between God and man for all who is in the covenant.

That that membership in that that true covenant is only for those who are of the elect. Yes. All right so because it seems as if from my conversations with some Pato Baptists who are outside of federal vision who are More of the historic or typical Westminster Confession or three forms of unity advocates. It seems that some of them are saying that you can be a true member of the Covenant and be a Reprobate a true member of the Covenant and be reprobate.

So you would you would disagree with that? Do you by the way, do you acknowledge that there are Pato Baptists who hold that view outside?

The federal vision the warning. Yes, not not the covenant vote not the covenant of you that I hold. Do that.

But.

That so this is interesting that there there are differences even amongst those who are outside of the federal vision on this issue on membership in the true covenant and.

And.

We by the way, I forgot to mention that both our anonymous listener in Suffolk County and RJ and White Plains you have both won a free copy of The book that we are discussing gospel truth of justification proclaimed offended developed by our guest David J angles ma compliments of our friends at Reformed free publishing association and if you want this book, you got to give us of your full mailing address.

So, please email it to me as soon as possible. So our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm can ship those books out to you. We have a listener. Oh, by the way before I go to this other listener in Slovenia You said that you wanted to offer proof and I assume what you meant by that is you were going to actually quote perhaps Advocates of the federal vision that they actually are teaching that you can lose your salvation.