Christ Is Enough...Now What? | Theocast

Hi, this is Justin. If you've been listening to Theocast for any period of time, you might be tracking with us in some of the things that we talk about regularly.

You're thinking, guys, yeah, I agree with you that Jesus really is enough. He has accomplished my salvation and there's nothing that I need to do to contribute to that.

And I'm tracking with you guys too, even with respect to pietism, how in so many contexts, the

Christian life seems to be the focus instead of Jesus. All right, I'm there, but now can you guys help me? Because now that I understand that Christ has done everything, what is it that I need to concern myself with doing?

Can you give me some handles with respect to the Christian life and how to approach it from this confessional reform perspective?

Well, if that's where you are and you're wrestling with those things, this podcast today is for you. Now, some of you in listening to what we're going to say might think,

I don't really know how to apply these things in my local church context. Well, we're gonna talk a little bit about the state of the local church and we do that especially in the members area, just kind of what we see in terms of the church context in our modern setting.

We hope that these things are helpful, that they're clarifying, and we hope that they're encouraging and we hope that it helps you all the more to see your freedom that you have in Jesus and the rest that is yours in Him.

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Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ. Conversations about the

Christian life from a Reformed perspective. Our hosts today are John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, and myself,

Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina. We sit here in the middle of the month of November in the year of our

Lord 2020, and holiday smells are starting to become a thing in the

Perdue house. It's pretty exciting. You know, cinnamon and spice and all things nice and the

Fraser fir and all that good stuff. John, I'm not trying to influence the way that you go with your pro -con.

I'm not trying to entice you to talk about anything related to the holidays. But I know in my world,

I'm sort of excited about this stuff. Everybody knows I love fall and I enjoy moving into the holiday season.

Yeah. And I mean, even the year 2020, I'm tempted to take this in a direction that's not gonna be encouraging or helpful for people.

Cause I know that it's been a tough time for people. Would not be prudent.

So instead of me continuing to talk, we have met to podcast today, but before we get into the subject matter at hand, which we hope is gonna be helpful in encouraging the listener.

We want you to just entertain people for the next couple of minutes with your pro -con. Oh, trust me.

Trust me. I shall entertain you. So yesterday I was sitting down with Patrick. I'm immediately thinking about gladiator.

Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained? Maybe the best movie of all time.

Is this not why you're here? Okay, go ahead. So I'm sitting down with Patrick Crandall for our staff meeting yesterday.

We were at a restaurant. And for those of you who don't know, Patrick is a new contributor at Theocast, church planner in Columbia.

Yeah, he is. Good to have him, have him part of the team. So I couldn't believe it.

I about lost my mind half, not half, but a good section of our staff meeting was me lamenting about one, it's not even

Thanksgiving and we're listening to Christmas music. And two, most Christmas music is horrible, especially if it was written after like the 1950s.

John, calm down. You're coming in hot today. I'm sorry, but - I'm glad I was sitting down for that.

The music, the lyrics, it's like, come on. Have we lost our minds?

This is ridiculous. You're telling me that you don't enjoy the NSYNC Christmas album from the late nineties? Are you serious?

They're my favorite. That's my absolute favorite album of all time. No, come on, bro.

No, anyways, so my pro is this. I love Christmas. It's a fun break in society for as, just as far as like celebration.

And I do think, you know, the church has, in my opinion, the churches that I'm associated with, they do a really great job of focusing on the finished work of Christ and the glory of Christ.

So I really like that. My son was reading in his history book about where the 25th of December came in, which is a counteraction to the celebration of the sun god, which he thought was interesting.

So I'm all for it. I just really don't like most Christmas music. My wife, she sees me grimacing as we drive during the holidays and Christmas music is playing in our car.

I just want to secretly put headphones in my ears. Well, I mean, let me be clear.

I love Christmas music unashamedly, but I also probably share your thoughts in that most of the modern stuff

I don't enjoy. If it's like new, I don't care a lot for it. I mean, what I want to hear are classics, you know, dare

I say even traditional, you know, Christmas music. And I enjoy the ones that are theologically rich and I'm happy to hear new arrangements of those, but I don't particularly,

I mean, every now and then I'll happily like get cheesy and silly and listen to some holiday album of some artists that I like.

But even then I'm kind of like, yeah, I don't know. Okay, I can tell you any Bing Crosby Christmas, I'm fine with.

Perry Como is good. I do listen to at least once a year and I make my kids listen to it with me. I listened to the

Jackson 5 seeing Santa Claus is coming to town. Yeah, you do. And here you are saying that you don't like Christmas music.

It just, you know, near Christmas is fine, not Thanksgiving. So, I'm not giving thanks for that.

Don't play Christmas music until after Thanksgiving, you'll die hard on that. Yeah, yeah, can

I say one other thing? I'm not a big fan of turning Thanksgiving, I'm not a big fan of turning Thanksgiving into a

Christian holiday either. A Christian holiday? Yeah, it's like, it's not on the church calendar, so whatever.

No, it's true. It's true. I'm cranky today, man. I'm coming in hot, bro. You definitely set the bar high or low depending on how people wanna value it.

So now that we got that all straightened up, now what? Now what? Now that that's settled, now what?

Man, we are getting good at the way we transition into the topic.

It's only taken a couple of years, that's all. Well, it's why people listen to us because of how smoothly we handle things.

So, we get a lot of interaction here at Theocast from our listeners, which we're grateful for.

And there are a lot of people who write to us or leave us voicemails or communicate with us in various ways, and they'll let us know that they're encouraged by things they're hearing on the podcast, that they are tracking with us on the sufficiency of Jesus and the fact that he is enough to save them and that his finished work stands outside of them and they can trust him and they can rest in him because he has accomplished their salvation.

And they're with us completely on that. And they even are beginning to understand categories of confessional theology versus pietism.

They agree that a lot of what exists out there in the evangelical world is focused on the

Christian, not primarily on Jesus. And they're like, man, you guys are, you're right about that.

Something's off and I've noticed this and you're putting words to my thoughts and words to my observations. I'm with you.

So, guys, help me now that I'm tracking and now that I'm there and now that I have seen that Christ really is enough.

He is mighty and sufficient to save me and I'm there.

Now, what do I do? Now that I know that Christ has done everything, what do

I do? And one way to maybe rephrase that question is people are asking us, what are the things that I should pursue?

What are the things that I should give attention to and prioritize in my life now that I have come to this kind of reformed theological, biblical understanding of the nature of Christ's work and the nature of salvation?

And yeah, we were talking on the phone yesterday, John. I was on my way home from a meeting and you,

I called you, you called me back and we were talking about a few other things, but then this came up. We had several listener questions around this area and we were like, we should record this tomorrow.

This now what conversation. And I think we're going to aim to take a less is more approach.

We're not going to give a long list of stuff that people need to be doing. We're going to really hammer the main things from our perspective, but.

Yeah, well, I think there's a shift in thinking from when you're a pietist, you're afraid you're not doing enough.

And then when you leave pietism, you're afraid you're doing too much, right? So there's this pendulum swing of doing anything, doing anything feels like pietism.

So the question is, what am I supposed to do? There's a fear of doing something wrong.

And I understand that perspective. I've been there. There are a lot of people, you're not alone at all when you're having these struggles.

And really this conversation, I would say, if I were to kind of rephrase it, we're changing what you pursue as a

Christian. So before you were pursuing status and assurance with God, and you were pursuing identity, right?

You're pursuing also personal development. That became your pursuit. It's all internal.

It's all about you. And now that you're realizing that all of that is secure in Christ, your identity, your spiritual growth, your status, the benefits of Christ, all of that comes to you by faith.

All the spiritual blessings that we've been given, our final salvation is secure. We have peace with God now and forever.

Yeah, all of it. So what you used to pursue, you look at it and it's finished.

It's done. It's over. It's built. It's completed. You hear this. And so now you're thinking, what am

I supposed to do now? So we're gonna change. We're gonna shift your priority. And really this is, I would say, it's not a now what question.

It's not now what you do. We're going to change your priorities because your priority was you and your standing before God.

Now that's secured, we're gonna show you how Scripture gives you your priorities, gives you the now what.

And so that's how I would set us up. So Justin, what would you say would really be the priority shift, the priority change when you leave pietism and you walk into resting in Christ?

What becomes our priority? Yeah, it's a paradigm shift, like you've said. It's a recalibration of thinking because everything that we've been told does center on us and our individual pursuit of the

Christian life. And we're chasing after any number of things like you've already alluded to unashamedly. And we're gonna unpack this for the rest of the episode, basically.

So I'm gonna say this in a very simple way that's gonna sound, I don't know, very broad.

Or for some people, they're gonna be like, okay, well, duh, no kidding. But then we're gonna talk about it.

Nuance it and talk about some things underneath this. Your priority becomes, once you know that Christ is enough and that we actually have rest in him and we're safe and everything's been accomplished, your priority shifts from yourself to the body of Christ.

It shifts to the church, the local church. And there are a number of things underneath that that we wanna talk about.

And so what we are going to be encouraging people to do today in an ongoing way and for the rest of their lives is to build your life around a local church where Christ is heralded and where the saints are building one another up in love and are stirring one another up to love and good works.

It's where the mission of Christ is being accomplished in seeing the saints built up into maturity.

And we're seeing the mission of Christ being accomplished as the gospel is advanced. So yeah, unashamedly, at the risk of sounding silly, build your life around a local church where Christ is heralded and where the saints are building one another up in love.

And now, John, let's maybe unpack some of those things and why this is true. Because it sounds reductionistic and absurdly simple that people are like, yeah, guys, there has to be more to it than this.

And what I think has happened in the minds of many people is that we have not really understood very well what the church is.

We have not really understood very well what the local church is about and for, why we gather on Sunday, how we are living our lives with one another, how the

Lord uses the brethren, the saints in our lives, all of that.

And so let's tear this up. This is gonna be, I trust, an encouraging, edifying, and liberating conversation for people.

Yep, so pietism, hyper -individualism. So you and you yourself pursuing these goals.

The rest of Christ comes in. And what happens is that after the gospel transforms your heart and your mind and you're resting in Christ, you are then transitioning to something that's very contrary to our nature, which is communalism.

We become part of a communion. I mean, even the word communion means common union. It's where we get the idea.

Well, we gather around the table as those who are unified in Christ. A couple of passages, I want you to hear this.

So Paul says, before Christ, he was a good Jew, and he described all the things he was doing right.

And then in Galatians 3, he transfers it and says, we aren't, we begun by the spirit.

We're trying to perfect ourselves by the flesh. That is contrary to scripture. So then he gives us two other examples.

One, I'm gonna read these real quickly to you. Ephesians chapter four and Colossians chapter one. He literally does the now what moment.

You're safe in Christ, now what? So this is what he says. So Ephesians 4 .1, I therefore a prisoner of the

Lord. So this is right after the first three chapters of Ephesians. If you're familiar with it, glorious election sovereignty of God's beautiful.

I therefore a prisoner of the Lord urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called.

What is he referencing? First three chapters. With all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace.

So his initial reaction is to walk worthy to what you have received immediately does what?

Community, community. He requires you to be patient, kind, loving, and bearing with one another for the bond of peace.

He does it again. Let me read this to you in Colossians chapter three. So Colossians, I'll let you speak to this.

I know you have some thoughts on these. So Colossians chapter three, the end of chapter two, he names all of this ascetic work that people are trying to do to control the works of the flesh.

Individualism, by the way. He completely stomps on individualism at the end of chapter two.

Moves into chapter three, looking unto Jesus, right? Seated at the right hand of the Father. And this is what he says in response to the gospel after we've understood, we walk by faith in Christ.

He says this in chapter three, verse 12. Put on then as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another.

And if one has a complaint against another, forgive each other as the Lord has forgiven you.

So you also must forgive. And then he says this, and above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

So two times he tells the church, the response to your salvation and your security in Christ is to then forgive, show love and kindness for the sake of peace and harmony and unity where?

In the body of Christ. Yeah, I'm gonna read some more Bible and because I just think this is good to do. And then what we can do is continue the conversation underneath all these wonderful things that the apostles write.

So I'm gonna pick up in Ephesians chapter four a little bit later after what you read, because it's beautiful.

I mean, Paul speaks to how there are gifts that are given to the church, apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds, and they are given as gifts from Jesus Christ for the benefit of the body of Christ, for the up -building of the body, right?

And so he talks about how those individuals, the apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers are given by Jesus to equip the saints for the work of the ministry for the building up of the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the son of God to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes.

Then this, rather speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head and to Christ.

So we're to be conformed to the image of Jesus in the church from whom the whole body joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

So this is clearly a corporate exercise that the Christian life is. I mean, sanctification is a corporate exercise.

Maturity and being built up is a corporate exercise. You can't do this by yourself. I'm thinking too about Paul in the letter to the

Corinthians, 1 Corinthians. In chapter 12, he'll talk about how every member of the body has its function, right?

We all do different things and every part is honorable, right? And then in 1

Corinthians 13, that wonderful chapter on love, he talks about how the most important thing that could ever happen in the body of Christ is that we would love one another.

And then we have, even in the letter to the Hebrews, in Hebrews chapter 10, I may flip over there.

While you do that, let me read 2 Peter real quick while you're turning. Go, go, because I've got more, keep going. 2

Peter chapter one, he gives the glorious promise that the power of Christ is the one who comes in that saves us and then transforms us.

We trust in the power of Christ. And then Peter says this, for this reason, verse five, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue and virtue with knowledge and knowledge with self -control and self -control with steadfastness and steadfastness with godliness and godliness with brotherly affection and brotherly affection with love.

For if these qualities are yours and increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our

Lord Jesus Christ. So think about, Peter's saying the same thing. He's saying all of this is your response to your rest in Christ.

And what's it, he's saying, what is he concerned about being ineffective? Ineffective within the unity and the peace and the bond that happens within the body of Christ.

Because going back to what Paul says in Ephesians four, when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love. And if you aren't playing your part, you're not being effective in encouraging and building each other up.

That's right. And that is the mission of the church. Like we've already alluded to in the mission of Christ is that we would be built up into maturity and that the gospel would advance through the church.

And if we're not participating in that, then in that sense, we're not participating in the mission of Christ on earth.

All right, so let's continue here. Hebrews chapter 10, beginning in verse 23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

That's a wonderful objective truth, right? That we're confessing these doctrines, we're trusting in Jesus. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works.

Not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another. And all the more, as you see the day drawing near.

So assemble, stir one another up. Hold fast together the confession of our hope, namely the gospel of our

Lord Jesus Christ. We do it together. Galatians five, I mean, this may be the last one. We could do this all day.

We're just gonna try to prime the pump here with some scripture just to demonstrate that this is not our own idea. We're getting this from the

Bible and Christians have talked this way for 2000 years. So in the famous passage from Paul in Galatians chapter five on the works of the flesh and the fruit of the spirit.

After he writes about those two respective things, he says, if we live by the spirit, let us also walk by the spirit.

And people were like, oh, that's a big deal. What does it mean to walk by the spirit? What does that entail,

Paul? Well, in contrasting it, right, to the walking by the law. Sure, right, and he continues to talk.

I mean, he writes immediately after that. If we live by the spirit, let us also walk by the spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness.

Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.

So immediately when he's thinking in these categories of walking in the spirit, he talks to corporate realities of how we live with one another.

Not being arrogant, not envying, not provoking, but restoring people and bearing one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Like you want to know what God wants you to do, you do that in the context of the local church, in the context of your brothers and sisters, and you're doing this for one another.

Like we were talking before we hit the record button, John, and I'm sure we're gonna unpack this more, but you begin to live in community, like you said it this way, in community for the sake of the community, and I agree, you live in the church for the sake of the body of Christ.

You no longer become so me -focused. You're not just looking at yourself all the time. You're actually, you're trusting

Christ, absolutely. You're looking outside of yourself to Christ, but you're also looking away from yourself to your brothers and sisters and to your neighbor, and you're concerned now for the us, the we reality of the body, not so much just me.

It's a complete shift in focus and emphasis. We are excited to announce that we have a new free ebook available at our website called

Faith Versus Faithfulness, A Primer on Rest, and we the hosts put this together to explain the difference between emphasizing one's faith in Christ versus emphasizing one's faithfulness to Christ, and how one leads to rest and how the other often to a lack of assurance, and you can get this at theocast .org

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You can do that by going to our website, theocast .org. We hope that you enjoy the rest of the conversation.

Well, I would even go to Ephesians five. This is often used as a scare tactic from preachers, angry preachers who basically says, grieve not the

Holy Spirit, and they use that as a, you better not keep sinning, because if you do, then the power of the Spirit will be with you.

No, he is talking to the church. He's saying the power of the Spirit among the body, if you guys don't listen to what

I'm telling you to be loving, kind, and merciful, and gracious, then this is what's going to happen, is that the spirit of this building you up will be quenched, and it's not a fear of losing your salvation.

It's a fear of the work of Christ not being accomplished, and I think there's a lot of churches out there where the work of Christ isn't being accomplished because there's so much division.

I mean, Justin and I know of two churches that unfortunately have had to close down because of disunity, because of division within it.

So the Spirit of Christ is no longer working there, and that's really sad, but I will say this. What's happening is that you are having an identity change.

So Justin and I both have had two identity changes physically in our life. When we first got married, we went from being single and doing everything for ourselves to then being connected to an individual to where we became one.

So when we introduce ourselves, we one -wear a ring to identify with this new person, and we announce ourselves to be one with this person.

I am married and I have a wife, so when I meet someone new and my wife's standing next to me, I introduce myself and then introduce my wife.

Why? Because she's part of my identity. And then when we had children, we went from being married to parents, right?

And so now my identity, everything I think and do and say, it's all in relationship to my family.

I do them as a dad, but I never think about life outside of my marriage and my children.

It changes the way I think. So the identity has changed. All right, last, I said

I was done with the Bible, but I lied about that. So last little, last -

All men are liars. Seriously. Last unpacking, very briefly, of a couple of things that are written.

You mentioned Ephesians 5, so I was just glancing at it. Yeah. At the beginning of that chapter, Paul says, therefore be imitators of God as beloved children, right?

So you're now children of God. Seek to imitate your father because this is who you are now. But then he says, and walk in love as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

So walk in love, consider Jesus and how he gave himself up for us.

Then he goes right into, but sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you as is proper among saints.

Let there be no filthiness, et cetera. Well, what's he contrasting? He is exhorting us to walk in love and to live lives that are characterized by,

I mean, dare I say it, dying to ourselves and loving others, right? That's what he's saying.

Walk in love and don't be selfish. Don't be all about you. Love your brothers and sisters.

And what is sexual immorality, impurity, and covetousness? What are those things about? They're about me.

They're about me doing what I feel like doing. They're about me doing what I just want to do or me doing what

I crave and not considering my brothers and sisters. I just don't regard them.

I do what I want to do. And everybody else just needs to get out of my way and be okay with that.

And it doesn't matter who I hurt. Well, that's what Paul is exhorting us to. Love one another.

Consider others as more important than yourselves. Live a life that is characterized by denying yourself for the good of your brothers and sisters.

This is not monkery. This is not asceticism. You are living a life that the focus now has shifted from yourself to the good of the saints and the good of the church, the good of your brothers and sisters.

And I think that's a more realistic and faithful way to understand what the apostle was exhorting us to rather than going off on a rant about sexual purity for the sake of sexual purity.

It's like, no, yeah, you need to be sexually pure and you need to avoid immorality and you need to avoid covetousness because it harms not only you, it harms everybody around you.

And it dishonors God in that. Anyway, I could rant about that for a while. So John, let's go ahead.

Two things I want to add to that. One is, I love asking this question, I ask it all the time now. Can you think of a sin that only affects you and no one else?

No, no. Right, the answer to that is no, because anything that you do, even if it's, some people think, does lust, does lust or laziness,

I can guarantee you, I can promise you, I'll show you how it affects. Your lust and your laziness or whatever that you think is just so private, however you think on that or act on that that you think is private, it will inevitably affect everybody who ever is close to you.

It will affect everybody who ever loves you. And you are naive and foolish.

I say this kindly and humbly, but you are naive and foolish to think that there's any sin that you would be engaged in that is purely private and is only harming you.

It's not true. That's right. So I don't know if this is where you were gonna go. If not, we can go there after I say this.

But the question then becomes, because I've seen this happen, where we start well and we start pure, we wanna do this biblically, and then it turns into legalism, where people are judging you for not showing up to church and you're not doing enough and you're not involved and we're not thinking about people's circumstances.

What prevents us, Justin, from turning this into legalism? What is it that's been handed to the church that really governs this love and governs this responsibility that's been handed to the local church?

A few things, if I'm going where you're going, and we'll unpack these.

I mean, a few things that have been given to us that are primary in the life of the church. I mean, we have the Sunday gathering in which the ordinary means of grace are a thing.

That's it. And then also we have this clear emphasis of the New Testament toward love and unity and restoration and forgiveness and all those things.

But let's start first with, I think, the means of grace, because there are probably people listening to this podcast who are anticipating us saying something about this, and that's great.

When people ask the question, so what do I do now? And surely it can't be as simple as you guys are saying in terms of,

I just need to build my life around a local church, and I need to be present on the Lord's day and partake of the means of grace and live life in the community of the saints.

I agree with you, and I think that's all good, but surely there has to be more to it than that. And I guess my short answer to that is, as we come to a more robust biblical understanding of the means of grace and the life of the church together, we understand how that drives literally everything else in the

Christian life. The means of grace and life in the church, life amongst the saints, drives everything in the

Christian life to the extent that if you prioritize this appropriately, everything else tends to take care of itself.

Not to be reductionistic or to overly simplify this, but it's true. And if we have a biblical understanding of the means of grace, how

God has promised uniquely to show up and minister to his people when the church gathers, and these means of reading, giving attention to the public reading of scripture, giving attention to the preaching of the word, and how

God has promised throughout the entire Bible to use his word to accomplish its work. How even our faith comes by hearing the message of Christ, right?

Also singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to one another, and praying about everything as a gathered church, coming to the table to participate in the body and blood of Christ, to witness baptism through which we have been baptized into the

Lord Jesus and united in him. As we do these things together, the spirit of God uses those things that are ordinary to accomplish all of his extraordinary ends in our lives.

Our faith is sustained, our faith is confirmed, our faith is strengthened, faith is imparted to those who have not yet trusted the

Lord Jesus through these means by the spirit. And we are grown in the faith.

Over the course of weeks, months, years, and decades, we are grown by regularly being a part of the body, coming in faith as one of the saints to receive from God as he uses these means in our lives.

We can't overstate the significance of the ordinary means in those ways. I've talked a lot about it. I want you to be able to riff on this too.

No, absolutely. I think I'm just gonna go back to Ephesians chapter four when he says, when the body's functioning properly, what does it build itself up in?

It says love. And so when we think about... That's right, he says he gives teachers and preachers and prophets for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry.

So who's doing the work of the ministry? The people are. And when they do the work of the ministry, what ends up happening is they build themselves up in love.

Well, we learn, and this is why we emphasize this because the church, I think rightfully so, has been emphasizing this for years.

The means of grace, we use that word a means, means it's a way in which it comes to you and what's coming to you, grace.

It's a vehicle. So if a church is centering around grace, and that's what the ministry becomes is we are considering how to build one another up by receiving grace as our motivation and then giving love in response.

I mean, also we're giving grace, right? Patience and kindness and mercy and meekness is a reflection of grace.

Right, we're receiving grace, and in a more pointed way, we're receiving Christ. I mean, because Christ is God's grace to us.

And so as we receive Christ in the means, what are we then giving one another? We're pointing and giving, in one sense,

Christ and grace and love and mercy, all these things to each other, yeah. Right, so if we're appropriately using the means, which is the preaching of Christ weekly, the administration of Christ through physical means, which is the word,

I'm sorry, the sacraments and baptism, and we're gathering together to depend upon God in prayer, everyone equally understands we have not unless it comes from God.

That is what's going to prevent a church from becoming divisive and turning church into legalism.

I have been a part of these churches, many people have. Well, every time they walk away from church, it's nothing of grace.

It's not a means by which Christ is administered to them. They walk away with a to -do list filling down and completely drowning in pietism and legalism.

So if that is the church context you're in, I can understand when you say, when you hear us say, now what?

And we point you to church, you're like, no way. You're like, no. Forget that. Forget that. Right, because this is,

I know, I know I can speak for Covenant Baptist Church, and I know I can speak for Grace Reformed Church.

As we sit behind these microphones today, the understanding that we have of the

Bible and the Christian life in a pointed way, even the saint -centered reality and our need, how we are always, always in need of grace.

We, even as regenerate, born -again people, we still live in a fallen flesh. And so we are not able to do as we ought all the time.

And so we are regularly sinning. We're grieved by that sin. We battle all kinds of things.

Things wage war against our faith. We struggle to trust Christ. We struggle to believe God, right?

And so what do we need when we come together on Sunday? We need to be reminded of our need.

We need to be reminded of our sin. We need to confess that together. We need to ask the

Lord to forgive us and then rejoice in the fact that we are absolved and forgiven. You know, we are absolved of all guilt.

We're forgiven and we're counted righteous in Christ. Like, praise God for that good news. And then we need what?

When we open the Word, the center of our services are the Word and sacrament, right?

When we open the Word and we come to the table, what's all that about? Ultimately, we need to be given Jesus every

Sunday. And that's what a legitimate, ordinary means understanding is centered upon is the fact that the entire

Christian life is built upon Christ and His righteousness. And we need to be fed that on a weekly basis.

And we're fed that through the Word and the table primarily. And so yeah, we're not, when we say build your life on a local church, we're, just to be very clear, we're saying build your life on a local church where this is happening.

And where you come on Sunday not to be told necessarily what to do, though of course you're going to be exhorted and encouraged and challenged in ways.

Of course you are, we all are. But you come primarily knowing that you're a sinner in need of Christ and you know that you're going to be given

Him. You're going to be reminded of what's true. You've forgotten the gospel this week and you've blown it through your sin this week.

You need Jesus on Sunday and that's why you're there. And you're gathering with a group of people who are there for the exact same reason.

And that is how the body is speaking the truth to one another, exhorting one another and building one another up in love as we all look to Christ.

And it blows up legalism. I mean, how could you be legalistic in such an environment? How could you?

Yeah. That's right. I want to also put something into perspective as well. This context that we're speaking of is not only where we give love, it's not only where we're built up encouraged, but it's also where we are established in the faith, where it's not only the knowledge of Christ, but our foundation.

Let me go back to Ephesians to show this to you. 4 .13 it says, or 12, to equip the saints for the work of ministry for the building up the body of Christ until we all attain the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the

Son of God to mature manhood to the measure of the statute of the fullness of Christ so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes.

So, and then he says, rather speaking the truth in love, everyone is built up in the head of Christ. So your, not only your faith, not only your ministry, but your ongoing knowledge and foundation is structured and maintained within the local body.

What I struggle with a lot is that people assume it's their responsibility to increase their knowledge and their foundation.

And actually, Paul says, to prevent you from being carried about by every wind of doctrine, the church is designed to educate you and strengthen your faith.

This is why you need to be at a good Bible teaching church that has strong doctrine and a good doctrinal foundation.

But I will tell you this is that as your faith is being, this is my second thought.

I'll let you decide whatever you want to do with this. I think it's harder to love your neighbor in the context of a local church than it is to do your personal

Bible reading in prayer time. And we emphasize personal Bible reading in prayer time as if that's the crux of the

Christian life. And I'm arguing the crux of the Christian life is to love and to care for your brothers and sister in the body of Christ.

And I guarantee you that's harder to do and you're going to need Christ more to accomplish that. I agree with you.

I don't know that I've got a lot to pile on and add. I agree with your comments about the need of being in a local church that has a solid doctrinal foundation.

And to read your Bible on your own is a very fine and good thing to do, given, here's the caveat, if you are in a context where you are being taught faithfully from the pulpit every

Sunday, and you have pastors in your life that are teaching you doctrine and theology, that are giving you a framework with which you can understand your

Bible, the exhortations in the New Testament about the ministry of the word are all corporate.

And even what you're referencing right now in Ephesians, it's very clear that Jesus has set the church up in a particular way, and he has set certain people apart to do particular things in the church so that we would be built up in our understanding and onto maturity.

And so to think that we, on our own, are going to build ourselves up into maturity is to swim against the current of the

New Testament, and is to push back against the apostles, and even to push back against Christ himself, who has given these gifts to the church.

We need the church. And so, yeah, I think that anything that we're doing on our own is a supplement to the main thing, the crux of it, as you put it,

John. The crux of the Christian life is the gathered church and life in the body, where we are loving one another and bearing with one another and helping one another, encouraging one another.

And then, alongside that, we're gonna be driven by those corporate realities in our private lives.

Yeah. Well, the Bible - We tend to reverse that relationship in how we think about it. So here's another thought.

To have knowledge and not apply it, I think, is a waste of the knowledge.

And Paul even describes it as, or the Bible describes it as knowledge puffeth up. It becomes knowledge not applied is useless.

It actually just creates pride. And what bothers me is that I know people who are students of the

Word, and they know their Bibles in and out, but they are the most mean, divisive. They get on the internet, and they just wanna pick fights with people.

I look at that and go, how is it you could know so much about God's Word?

And I guess my response to that is, some people don't know any better. No one's ever told them. No one's ever taught them that this is not the design of God, is to go in theological debates on the internet and not love your brother and really get involved in a local church.

I will tell you this right now. Theocast is not your church. And I will be the first to rebuke you and tell you if you are only listening us and you're not in a local body, your soul is not truly being cared for.

I'm not your pastor. Justin and Jimmy are not your pastors. We can't shepherd you.

I don't even know your name, most of you. We can't love you. We can't get down in the mud and be there for you.

You need to find a church. And if that means you move a state, then move your state. Go find a place where you can get into a church.

Yeah, so I wanna bring this back down. I know we've just got a few minutes left in the regular portion here.

And I'm just gonna say this in my typical ways, not trying to be punchy or sarcastic. And John, you can do with this what you will.

But I know in our context here in Asheville, North Carolina, as people come to CBC and they're wrestling with all these things that we're talking about today, they're starting to understand they're being affected by maybe the preaching or some of the things that the members of our church are saying to them.

And they're wanting, sincerely, because they're born again, they want to grow in the faith. They want to mature.

They want to obey the Lord. And so they ask. And they'll be talking about discipleship and they'll be talking about growth and they'll be talking about what we need to be doing.

What do we need to be doing? And because CBC is, by God's grace, the kind of church that it is, it's imperfect, but it is the kind of thing that we're describing today, like your church and like Jimmy's, where the means of grace are administered and Christ is the focus and we're loving each other.

I tell people just to try to liberate them and make it very simple. I'm like, well, the first thing that I would encourage you to do sincerely is keep coming here on the

Lord's day. Get here, talk to people. And if you're invited to go hang out after church, go.

You're gonna get connected relationally that way. Keep coming here on Sundays. Keep asking questions, particularly to the pastors or anybody that you've gotten to know that you trust.

Ask your questions and let us talk with you. Let us help you understand these things. And over the course of time, as you keep showing up and as you keep loving these people and they keep loving you, you will be built up in the faith and you will grow into maturity.

Like it really is that simple. Like this is how God has set it up. And people look at you sideways because it's just so different than anything that they've ever heard.

And it sounds to them like, man, it's gotta be, there's gotta be more to it than that.

But this is how God works, John. I mean, think about how many times we hear objections to faith. Well, it can't be as simple as just believe

Jesus. Can't be as easy as like believe Jesus and be saved, to which we would say, well, faith is actually not easy.

There's a lot more entailed in that than you think. But yeah, trusting Christ saves you just like living life in the church will mature you.

If you're in a healthy one and there are gonna be a million things that go on in the life of the body that you're not aware of, that you're not planning for, that will grow and mature you in Christ Jesus that will protect you and result in your sanctification and will result finally in your being kept so that you'll be saved.

Fine, I mean, it's really beautiful anyway. And it is very simple. So yeah, you may have to move.

I mean, like you said, I mean, we're not trying to be or whatever, you may have to move. Or this is how churches get planted.

There's one in Minnesota that has been planted. There's one in Columbia, Tennessee that's about to get planted.

I'm working with a guy in Washington. Hey, listen, if you wanna stay in your community, maybe you should pray and ask the

Lord to start a church in your area. This is how, yeah. We need good. Yeah, something either needs to be planted or you need to move.

I mean, and we, this is not this podcast, but this is not the point of this podcast, but we make all kinds of decisions in life where we have to prioritize things and say, what's the most valuable?

What's the most significant thing in my life? And then I need to make decisions based upon that. And we have a value system.

What we're saying is the most important thing for your life on earth is being in a church where Christ is heralded and where the saints are building one another up in love.

There is nothing that could be more important for your life and the life of your family. And yeah, make decisions accordingly and you do with that what you will.

And there's liberty to join any gospel preaching church you want. But yeah, well, we can talk about this in the members podcast, but think about in the sovereignty and the wisdom of God, he designed the church to advance this way.

When the first 1500 years of the church community, most people couldn't own their own

Bibles. And so they gathered together. Hmm, brilliant. Maybe we should talk about that some more.

Dude. I could talk all afternoon about the significance of the gathered church.

And so we're gonna talk about the gathered church some more, it sounds like to me, based upon what John has just said. Well, there's certainly more.

I got some thoughts about some modern perspectives as well, but I'll save those. There you have it.

There's a lot more that we're gonna say. And you can even pray for us that what we will say will be useful in edifying to the saints.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Theocast. I sincerely hope that this is encouraging and liberating for you.

And if we have simplified something for you in a way that's encouraging, praise God. And find - Let us know.

Sincerely. Let us know. Find a local church where Christ is preached and where the saints are building one another up in love, and then give your life and arrange your life around that.

It will be the best decision that you've ever made. And you'll be thankful for it. And I know

I am, John is, and we have testimonies of many people around us who feel the exact same way. And we are locking arms together in this pilgrimage called the

Christian life as we trust Christ and he brings us home. Anyway, now we're gonna head over to the members podcast area and have a lively dialogue,

I'm sure, about gathered church realities. And as John put it, some maybe weird takes from some contemporary people on the gathered church and everything related to that.

If you don't even know what I'm talking about in terms of the members podcast, you are really just unsure of how you would even go about listening to such a thing.

You can go over to our website, theocast .org, and you'll find information there about our membership. And that will give you access to content.

Should you become a member and partner with us in supporting this ministry, you'll get access not only to this other podcast every week, but you'll get access to other content as well.

And we encourage you to partake of that and partner with us in that way. John and I will meet many of you over there and we will speak with you again next week in the regular version of the podcast.

We look forward to that as well. And to add to that, if you're not listening to us on our private podcast feed, go get it, theocast .org