I May Have Overestimated Sean DeMars (From American Gospel) - Part 6

Critique of the Woke Church Frame and Emotional Manipulation

All right, let's jump right into it today. If you remember where we left off, Dr. McLaughlin had just presented Southern Christians in a very, very ridiculous light. I mean, she made it seem like, you know, they would go, you know, lynch a few blacks, you know, just as, you know, like a sporting event.

You know, we take your kids, you know, give them some popcorn, give them a lollipop, and they can watch the black guy get hung on a tree, and it was just a bit of fun for them, you know, and that's how she presented it.

It's just very disappointing that she would do that, but it's really, honestly, it's not that surprising. This whole perspective, the woke church perspective, is all about juicing the emotions as much as humanly possible, and it doesn't matter if it's true or not.

It doesn't matter if it's real. It doesn't matter. It's just all about getting those emotions going, and there's just, there's accuracy problems here, there's framing problems here, and it's just, it's a complete disaster, and I really, I really wish that Big Eva people didn't hate Christians so much, but they definitely do.

It's just so palpable. We all feel it, and it's ridiculous, and Sean, you know, here, if you remember last time, he did have a couple of really good answers. So I'm hoping that in this part of the conversation that he continues that, because he did, you know, bring up some good things, and so I'm cheering you on, buddy.

I hope this goes well.

I'm worried that it might not. Let's say between six years ago and now, where did the term's definition change? Like when, is there something that you can pinpoint was like, this, this is the season, this is the thing.

The term woke?

The term woke. I mean, I honestly, I'm not sure I would even presume to do that. I think there are many people today who would use that term in its original meaning, and frankly think that somebody like me didn't have any right to tell them they should or shouldn't be using it in that way.

I do think that it has been used by some, wittingly or unwittingly, to silence our black brothers and sisters on these questions. So that's where I'd always want to sort of look, think carefully about what definition isn't being used, and how are we wielding that term?

Are we using it in ways that open up conversation or in ways that close it down when maybe we should be opening it up?

I love when they try to browbeat you into not using the term in the most effective way. I actually don't care about any of that. I'm going to use the term in the most effective way possible. That's how I'm going to use the term.

I don't care if you feel good about it. I don't feel bad. I don't care if black brothers and sisters approve of it. I don't care about any of that. I'm going to use it as effectively as I possibly can so that people know what I'm talking about.

And it's so funny because people often say, oh, the woke is just a pejorative. Woke church is a pejorative. And it's like, you guys started it. You wrote the book on woke church. Eric Mason wrote a book called Woke Church.

It's one of the worst books I've ever read. I did a chapter-by-chapter review of it. It's on YouTube even today. I read what you guys put out. I take the time to think about the arguments and to respond to them and all of that.

And you're the ones who made yourselves a joke. Eric Mason's a complete joke. He's woke as anything. And it's tough luck. If you think I use it as a pejorative now, tough luck. That's not my problem. You're the one who created the word.

And if you're going to make that word mean all kinds of nonsense, then I'm going to go ahead and use it. I'm going to use it as much of a jolly warrior as I possibly can. I'm going to use it again and again and again.

I enjoy it. There you go.

I'm going to ask you the same question. When we use the term in the church, what rules should we abide by? What norms should we have so that the terms as the way we use it are helpful and not weaponized?

No, weaponize that term. That's the thing. No, we should weaponize these terms. Because if someone's going to say a bunch of woke stuff and they tell you that they don't like being called woke and they don't like being identified for what they really are, use that as a hammer again and again and again.

Weaponize it. See, that's the thing. We ought to continue using this term woke church because it bothers them so much. And you know why it bothers them so much? Because instantly we know all the kinds of things that you're saying about race when we call you woke.

Right? We probably pro reparations. You probably believe that statistical disparities prove racism. You probably believe that economic disparities prove racism and all of that kind of stuff. We know basically, you know, roughly what your beliefs are.

You see, that's why they hate the label. They don't want you to weaponize it. Because in one word, people know a whole smattering of things that you've probably said and you've probably done. Of course, you can't be perfect.

That's not what this is about. But in one word, we can identify. And when I say Matt Chandler is woke, you know exactly the kind of stuff you got to watch out for. When I say Tim Keller is woke, you know exactly the kind of stuff you got to watch out for.

When I say Eric Mason's woke, the Biddy Anya Wheely, Rebecca McLaughlin, whoever it is, John Lehman, whoever it is. When I say that they're woke, you know exactly the kind of poison that they're about to inject into your veins when they talk about race.

And they hate the fact that in one word, I can communicate so much. They hate that. And so they pretend like I can't do that. They say, well, do you really know what woke is?

By the way, woke is just being awake to the racial injustice of the past. And it's like they make stuff up.

They're desperate. This woke church debate, these good faith debates, this is desperation mode for Big Eva. This is like the last throes of this approach, this ultra-feminine, ultra-emotional, we got to be so winsome approach.

This is the death rattle as far as I'm concerned. And so they're going to pretend that I can't do what I can definitively do and say, hey, Phil Vischer is woke as a joke, and you know exactly what I'm talking about.

They're going to pretend you can't. Don't weaponize it. No, weaponize it. Weaponize it. Don't ever lay down the weapons that your opponents don't like. Because there's a good chance that the weapons your opponents don't like are the ones that are effective.

Why Christians Should Not Fear Political Language

Two things. One, I would be perfectly content if we just stopped using it. It's become politicized, weaponized, yeah, you use the word, everyone in the room kind of gets a little tense, you know, especially if you're in a new church, small group.

Why worry about if it's politicized or weaponized? I mean, Christianity is one of the most political theologies, ideologies you can imagine. We believe that Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He has a mediatorial reign that he uses his people to reign and rule and all this kind of stuff, and it's like he's an actual king.

It's political to be a Christian. Of course, weaponize it. Look, we're in a war, and when you're in a war, you use weapons. Why are you deathly afraid of something being political or weaponized? Don't be afraid of that.

Don't let them rob you of that. You see, that's the thing. They want you to lay your weapons down. They just want you to let it happen, and if you don't, you're not winsome. Don't let your opponents dictate the terms of the fight.

That's not how this goes.

That's not how this works, guys. If you say the word woke, everyone's like, where do you stand on this? I would be happy if we used a different word. Having said that, just a But does it matter?

If you use a different word, it makes no difference because you're still going to have the conflict. Again, everyone, where do you stand on this? Why do you avoid conflict? This is the thing. It boggles the mind.

He doesn't want it to be political. He doesn't want to weaponize it, and he doesn't want people to think, where do you stand on these things? This is why this is the death rattle of Gospel Coalition and Big Even.

This is the death throes. This is the last-ditch effort. It's like, why run from this? You got to run headlong into this battle. You got to create controversy, and you do it in a nice way. I mean, look, there's controversies in my personal life, in my church, and stuff like that, and I'm still friends with people who disagree with me at church.

That's okay. We're still friends. We're still brothers and sisters in Christ, and we can still hash it out, but you know when you can't be friends? It's when you're pretending there's no difference when they're absolutely

We can't use the word well because then we have to wonder what side we're on. That's the nonsense, man. That's the nonsense.

The Origins and Use of the Word Woke

A small point of pushback for Rebecca. I don't think that the original usage of that word is amongst black people having more of an awareness of the history of racial injustice. It was certainly appropriated by black people in the civil rights struggle, and I'm not saying that that's inappropriate, but its roots are much deeper than that.

Originally with Marx, and then later with other Marxists, and then postmodernists, and then black feminists. By the way, when I say black feminists, that's the technical term I'm not referring to there.

Then later it was appropriated, most recently after the Michael Brown incident in Ferguson, and it came back to life, particularly as it was popularized by Black Lives Matter. I just want to be clear that if someone says I hear Rebecca say, we shouldn't try to silence our black brothers and sisters and tell them they shouldn't use that word.

Well, I don't want to silence them, but I do want to make sure that if you use this word that you understand that it actually doesn't come from where you may necessarily think it comes from, and you may be using a word that's loaded with meaning that you just may not understand.

I don't mean to be paternalistic or haughty as I say that, it's just a fact.

In your argument, you talk about

Again, I'm just going to repeat this. I don't think he's out of his depth here. I think he knows exactly what he's talking about. I think that, and actually this image right here, I didn't do this on purpose, but if you just look at him in this stance, I don't think he's feeling very good about this.

I think that I have a lot of sympathy for Sean DeMars. I really do, because this dude gets it, I think. He gets it. I think he understands how dangerous the woke church stuff is. It's poisonous. It's anti-Christ.

I think he knows all of these things. I think also, let me say this, and I don't want to put words into Sean's mouth, but this is my opinion. This is A .D. Robles' opinion of Sean and his partner. I forget what his name is, the guy on the American Gospel Show.

He I think both of them, deep down, they think that I'm 100 right, that Democrats in the church should be church disciplined. They should be taught how wrong it is to support such an evil party, and they should be taught the scriptures and why that's unacceptable.

If they refuse to repent, they should be excommunicated. I think they get it. In fact, Sean earlier started talking about the Nazis and how they said some true things and stuff like that, and that's true.

The Nazis did have some things that a lot of people would want to support politically or nationalistically, but they were so corrupt. They were so poisonous. The evil outweighed the good by such a large margin that you couldn't legitimately say, oh, I claim the name of Christ and, of course, Heil Hitler as well.

You couldn't do that. The Democratic Party is at that point right now. These guys get it. So, Sean here, he gets it. This picture is such a good image because he doesn't seem very proud of himself. He seems, honestly, I think he knows he's been neutered.

I think he knows there's much more he needs to say. He ought to be more forceful here because the woke church is devouring black and brown brothers and sisters in Christ right now, and it's also devouring white people too.

Don't get me wrong. This is an equal opportunity poison pill, but it's devouring blacks. It's bringing them into this place where it's calling their sin good, their anger, their lack of forgiveness, their covetousness.

These are vile, vicious, awful sins, and the woke church is saying, no, no, no. That's actually not good. That's just the call for justice. That's a gospel issue. That covetousness you feel, that's not covetousness.

That's a call for, cry for justice. You are owed something. You are owed something because it was taken away from somebody else from the past, maybe, and now you're owed it, and you don't have it. Now you got to march for it, and you got to hate your white brothers and sisters in Christ for it, and you need to do whatever you need to do because that's your due.

It's justice. It's a gospel issue. These people are being told their sin is a good thing. It's a gospel issue that you continue doing that until you get stuff from your white brothers and sisters in Christ.

Until they give you stuff, you keep raising hell. Sean knows that, man, but he's been neutered because it doesn't fit into the winsome formula. It doesn't fit into the let's all be nice and pretend we agree on 99 of things formula, and so he's in this position where he can't actually say what his soul wants to say, what his heart wants to say, and it doesn't feel good to be in that position.

I've been there, man. I've been there, but let me just say this. If you're there in this position, I'll speak to Sean directly, but if you're in that position right now out there in YouTube land, and you feel like you're neutered, like you can't say what you need to say, you don't have to be mean.

You don't have to joke around. Look, my personality, I like to joke around, but you don't have to be like that. I'm not saying you have to be like that. You do have to have joy, by the way, but you don't have to joke around.

You don't have to do voices and stuff like that, but if you're in this position, there's freedom, man. There's freedom. You don't have to pretend like these issues aren't serious. You don't have to pretend like the woke church isn't a beast that's devouring your brothers and sisters in Christ right now, and people that you've respected in the past and that you've got so much benefit from in the past are the ones promoting and feeding and growing this beast.

You don't have to pretend like it's not happening. It is happening, and Sean, I think, knows it, and it doesn't feel good to have to pretend like it's not.

Anyway, let's continue. More conservative brothers and sisters who are making things worse. To pray for this guy. For real.

And it's important because For real. Because he's Big Evil Light, like I said in the very first video, so he's kind of bought into this a little bit, but he's not bought in completely. He's willing to say some of the stuff he needs to say and stuff like that, but just pray for Sean and for all guys like this that are in this mode where they think their career and their respectability is going to depend on at least not rocking the boat too much.

And I've got to say something right now. Today is the time for reformers. Today is the time to rock the boat, and you're going to get criticized. You're going to get called all kinds of names. You're going to get called all kinds

You're evil. You're not winsome. You're not even a Christian. It's not becoming of a brother to act this way. You're going to get called all kinds of stuff. They're going to come after you. They're going to write hit pieces on you.

They've done it to me, and they just lie. They don't even say what I actually said. They make stuff up. They make quotes up. They just lie about me. It's happened to me. But you know what? This is the time for people that are going to see that kind of stuff, laugh it off because they know they're covered by the Lord, and they're going to count it a joy.

And you know what? That's the kind of people that we, in the future, look back and we're like, man, that guy, that guy Luther, man, what a hero. What a hero. But not at the time he wasn't a hero, but he was a hero.

I just encourage you guys, man, those that are in the position of Sean, where you just feel neutered. You can be free right now. You don't have to be ruled by guys like this. You don't have to be ruled by Gospel Coalition, or Marty Duren, or Jake Meade, or my goodness gracious.

You don't have to be ruled by people like that. In any case.

Conservative Critics, Church Discipline, and the Woke Church as Poison

Here, we are members of the body of Christ. We are on the same page about the large things. We are a part of the same kind of coalition. I would like you to speak to the people to your right that you referenced, so they're more conservative.

This ought to be good. Because what we hear, here's some common statements we've seen in the media. Things like Southern Seminary has gone liberal and woke, Reform Theological Seminary has CRT syllabi, Tim Keller and the Gospel Coalition are the greatest threat to the gospel in our lifetime.

There's other things that are said by those people that you referenced. How do you interact with that?

Listen here, because the way it's going to be presented is that this stuff is just said. People just say it, and there's just no evidence for it. It's like, this is crazy. Can you believe it? People are against Tim Keller.

It's like, no, we've actually documented again and again and again the way that he weaponizes scripture, twisting scripture, for the enemy. The way that he pretends certain scriptures are about fair wages, and they're not.

You go to the reference, and it's like, that's about stealing. I put so much Tim Keller content out there. There's one thing where twice he references a scripture and says it's about paying fair wages, right?

And you go to the reference, he just assumes you're not going to go, because if you go to the reference, it's a passage about stealing, not fair wages, not minimum wage laws, nothing like that. And he does that again and again.

So it's like, how do you interact with people who are just crazy? They just make these accusations, they have no reason for it. Let's see how Sean interacts, because I would hope that Sean knows that we don't just say that kind of stuff.

We actually have reasons for why we say it, and I would hope that he would at least acknowledge that. Anyway, let's hear him out.

Well, I interact with it primarily as a pastor. I've had these conversations with people who were upset at me for going woke, believe it or not, in my church, leaving the church. You're going woke. You're part of Big Eva with my church with less than 100 people.

And I just, I don't know, I just, I'm always trying to walk the tightrope. I'm trying to have careful thought, nuance. Most often I'm saying, hey, some of these guys that you're saying are woke. I know them.

They're my friends. That guy discipled me. I had lunch with him last week. I heard him say this about that person. Trust me, he's not going woke at all. We did an episode on this in my podcast. Maybe it'll end up as a Gospel Coalition article.

But I do want to make sure that the Kevin DeYoung 1, 2, 3, 4 scale, I'm a three. I do want to make sure that the threes are correcting the fours. Because what the fours are doing is very dangerous. They're assuming that anyone who's just one or two clicks left of them, anyone who's even slightly sympathetic to questions of racial justice, that they are woke liberals.

And it's nonsense. It's not careful thinking. It's not Christian charity. It's the exact kind of cynicism that we abhor in our opponents. I was recently reading Nick Needham's 2 ,000 Years of Christ's Power.

Phenomenal volume on church history. Volume three on the Reformation. He has this section on John Calvin and his relationship with Martin Luther. And the first section, and I'm going to butcher this quote, he says something to the effect of, like, were Luther to call me a devil, I would still praise him and bless him as a man of God who's done all these amazing things.

And then a little later, writing to one of his guys, he says, I'm ashamed of Luther. His vanity, his haughtiness, his desire to win every argument. And if I may kind of interject what I think is happening there, the way that he's treating Ulrich Zwingli in the Reformation, treating him like an enemy when in fact he's on the same team.

He says, I'm ashamed of Luther. And that's how I feel about some of my conservative brothers and sisters and the way that they're handling this conversation. I am not happy about wokeness in the church.

And you better believe I'm trying to fight it tooth and nail. But that also means that I have to kind of keep my own people in check and say, like, if it's not woke, it's not woke. Tim Keller is not woke.

I don't agree with everything that Tim Keller says and does. But Tim Keller is not woke. So let's stop being ridiculous.

So his response is, this is golden. This is golden. Sean, I think I might have given you too much credit. Man, his response is to the, you know, some people call Tim Keller woke. Is to say, Calvin was ashamed of Luther.

I'm ashamed of people. By the way, like, I only have a church of 100. So like, how could I be woke? What is that supposed to be? I don't know what that's supposed to mean. Whatever. That's a kind of a weird comment.

And Tim Keller is not woke. Let's stop being ridiculous. Tim Keller, Mr. White privilege. Tim Keller, Mr., you know, hey, by the way, you know, like, listen, like, you know, there's disparities and stuff like that.

I don't understand some of that answer either because he referenced something, a four, a three. I don't even know what he's talking about. I don't even know what he's talking about. I'll tell you who's not woke, though, in my opinion, is Kevin DeYoung.

Now, I think Kevin DeYoung is another one of these guys that, you know, I thank God for. He doesn't handle things the way I think he ought to. But I thank God for him because he's well positioned to fight a lot of, you know, quite frankly, the woke stuff that Tim Keller promotes.

But man, like, it's just like, stop being ridiculous. Tim Keller's not woke. How could he be? He's the great Tim Keller. Thank you, Sean, for that very enlightening and very helpful response. I really feel like I've been kept in check.

Stop being ridiculous. Tim Keller's not woke.

White Evangelicalism, Racial Justice, and a Better Future

From one flank to the other. So there's an extreme that if we don't agree with, we're labeled woke and liberal. There's another extreme that if we don't agree with, we might be labeled racist. So what.

Some people on the other side of this have just given up on white evangelicalism. They're walking away. They do not think that the institution is helpful in its current form. And they're not hopeful enough for change.

So they're leaving. What keeps you in the white evangelical church and what makes you hopeful for the future?

I mean, I'm not in a white evangelical church. I was yesterday at church between a Chinese woman who was here doing her PhD at Harvard and a Korean woman who was in Boston studying law. And I afterwards embraced a Ukrainian friend and a Chinese American.

I mean, let me clarify real quick.

She's so great. I mean, she goes to a church with like Ukrainians and stuff. I mean, man, how much more holy can you be?

The white American evangelical church as opposed to the historic African American church.

Why haven't you walked away from the white evangelical church? Well, I have. I have walked away.

I go to church with a Chinese woman. I've got a black friend, after all.

Useful. Useful clarification. What keeps me is the truth. And when I say that, I don't mean the truth that our churches have always acted according to Christian ethics. We haven't. What I mean is the truth as revealed in the scriptures about our Lord Jesus Christ.

And that is a truth which my brothers and sisters at African American churches would 100 affirm. And it's, I mean, just to go personal for a second, I moved to America 14 years ago. And when I first heard that white evangelicals in America were associated with racism, I thought that can't be true.

That has to be slander against the people of God because it just, I couldn't believe it. And in the past sort of decade or so, as I've learned more, both from reading and from talking with black brothers and sisters in particular, the more I've realized how much truth there has been in that.

Now, again, that's not to say that every person who identifies as a white evangelical would participate in that, but that actually, and, you know, talking to my husband's from Oklahoma and one of his best friends from college, who's a white girl, married a black guy, lovely godly man.

And they were advised that they should probably move to another state because it was just going to be really hard for them. You know where they were? It's deeply heartbreaking to me that this is and has been our reality.

But what keeps me hopeful is the truth. I define evangelical sort of theologically rather than politically, and I know, again, that's an important distinction. We have another debate on that. We have another debate on that.

Wow, be sure to tune in. Where else have we together? I'll be sure to tune in for that one. Jesus is the one who has the words of eternal life. And churches that might speak more loudly about racial justice, but also be massively compromised when it comes to same-sex sexuality and transgender identity are not going to give us, any of us, what we ultimately need.

But what I long for is the day when, rather than sort of harking back to a frankly imaginary past, where we were upholding Christian ethics across the board, that instead we would work towards a much better future, where brothers and sisters of a variety of racial and cultural backgrounds are trying holistically to read the Scriptures together and to practice what they teach, and to where we will be living out what Jesus is calling us to across all these areas.

We won't be falling into the mistake of, I think it's a profound mistake, of grouping together racial difference and love across racial difference with affirming same-sex marriage and transgender identity.

Why the Gospel Coalition Is Failing and Why This Debate Format Works for Them

You know, so we've got to say this, and I'm going to end here for now. I guess we'll do one more video for the last four minutes. But you have to hand it to Gospel Coalition, because as much as they're failing, and honestly, I think their failure is a spiritual thing.

I don't think God's going to put up with what they're up to for very much longer. And so, praise God for that, because that's a spiritual thing. People are starting to realize that the people that used to be so helpful, they're just not equipped for our time right now.

So, there's that. And the lighting and the whole feminine kind of appeal to it. I mean, even that, they're smart, because they know their audience. I mean, the Gospel Coalition audience is primarily female.

We've seen this many times. This is their primary audience. They cater to females. And so, that's why the debate is not really a debate, because women don't like that kind of stuff. They don't like debating as much as men do.

I'm not saying no women do, of course, but that's just not a feminine trait. So, you got to hand it to them, though. They're smart. I mean, they picked Rebecca McLaughlin because she's same-sex attracted, and she's a British woman, and so she can easily start talking about...

If you notice in this debate, Sean gave so many inches. Rebecca did not budge. She didn't budge. She's over here talking about transgender stuff, and she's willing to say, well, the transgenders go a little too far, but she's not going to budge when it comes to this race stuff.

Not an inch. Sean budged quite a few inches, quite a few inches, and gave her so many points, so many weapons to use, as she's spewing nonsense and doesn't budge an inch. Sean capitulated in this debate.

There's no question about that. Rebecca did exactly what she needed to do. She did exactly what she needed to do. Even like, what keeps you in the white church? Well, I don't go to a white church. It's just amazing.

I mean, you got to hand it to Gospel Coalition. They knew exactly what they're doing. They cast the perfect person in this little episode here. To do this. Man, this is garbage. At least we can laugh about it, right?

I'm probably, just so you guys know my plans, I'm not going to do every one of these debates. I can't do that to myself, but I'm definitely going to do the racial injustice one with Justin Giboney, because he's quite a train wreck himself.

But man, last episode, I was feeling pretty good about Sean DeMars, and in the beginning of this episode, I was feeling pretty good about him too. But man, that last answer. I think I gave him too much credit.

I really do. I really do. In any case, I hope you found this video helpful. God bless.