September 16, 2019 Show with Harold L. Senkbeil on “The Care of Souls: Cultivating a Pastor’s Heart” (Part 2)

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth, who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 16th day of September, 2019.

We are supposed to be having as our guest today, Harold Sinkbile, Executive Director of Doxology, the

Lutheran Center for Spiritual Care and Counsel. But before that, I am going to give you all some wonderful news.

Those of you who have been praying for my friend Joe Jackowitz daily are going to love hearing this.

In fact, everybody is going to love hearing this if you listen to this program. My friend Joe Jackowitz, who is the founder of First Love Radio.

First Love Radio is the network that live streams Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every day.

And Joe Jackowitz is also not only the founder of First Love Radio and First Love Missions and First Love Publications, but he is also the pastor of Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California.

Well, many of you who listen to this show every day will remember that very recently,

Joe was given the very grim prognosis of having an aggressive and very deadly form of leukemia that was offering, at best, a hope of 4 -6,

I'm sorry, it was a prognosis of 40 -60 % chance of survival.

That's what it was. And of course, that is a very frightening prognosis.

But obviously, as always, God knows better than even the most brilliant of physicians and those in the careers of medicine.

Joe, on Saturday, got this report, and I'm going to read directly from an email that he has sent on Saturday, September 14th.

Beloved family and friends, greetings in the name of Him who said, with God all things are possible.

From Mark chapter 10, verse 27. Three hours ago, a team of doctors came into my room. The lead doctor said that during the last two days, my white cells, red cells, and platelets had improved so rapidly, and they would release me from the hospital tomorrow or Monday.

This means that the good cells are growing back faster than they expected, and therefore, my immune system is strong enough to resume my normal lifestyle.

Actually, the lead doctor said, I never saw this quick a recovery before. Needless to say, we praise

God for this great news. As far as remaining cancer, the first chemo treatment destroyed over 90 % of it.

I will have a final bone marrow biopsy on September 28th to determine if a final chemo treatment is needed.

If it is, it will be a modified amount. It has been an incredible two days of rapid healing.

Through the Lord's mercies, we are not consumed because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning.

Great is your faithfulness. The Lord is my portion, says my soul. Therefore, I hope in Him.

Lamentations 3 .22 -24

Thank you for your love and for your prayers. The Lord is answering them. This was an email

Joe sent out on Saturday, and Joe is already home. He's already home recovering.

This is after receiving the frightening news that he had a 40 -60 % chance of survival. So we will keep you updated on Joe's progress.

We all thank you so much, those of you listening, who not only prayed for Joe's healing, but also for those who have reached out to him with the love and compassion of Jesus Christ.

Thank you so much, and we will, as I said, keep you updated. And now let me introduce you to our guest today.

He is a returning guest, Harold L. Sankbile, Executive Director of Doxology, the

Lutheran Center for Spiritual Care and Counsel. And he's an author with nearly five decades of pastoral experience.

We are going to be addressing part two of a discussion that we began weeks ago on his latest book,

The Care of Souls, Cultivating a Pastor's Heart. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Harold Sankbile.

What a joy to be with you again, Chris. Amen. And by the way, it's been a couple of weeks since I've interviewed you.

Am I still pronouncing your name correctly? Yes, that's marvelous. Your memory is great.

That's a pretty difficult name, yes. Well, brother, if you could, for those of our listeners who missed your first interview on this same subject, why don't you tell our listeners about Doxology, the

Lutheran Center for Spiritual Care and Counsel. I'd be happy to, yes. So we're in our 11th year of operation.

Doxology is a continuing education program for pastors of all denominations, although we come from a

Lutheran perspective. And our goal is to provide advanced skills for taking care of people spiritually.

We do that, and we have kind of a two -sided coin on the Christian counseling side and also the spiritual care side, which obviously is my bailiwick.

And so we've been privileged to serve well over 700 pastors so far. And we always involve the lay leaders of their congregations so that they can also see the key role that they play in assisting fellow

Christians to grow in faith and in service to our Lord, and also to have a closer working relationship with their pastor in the local situation.

And we also have a component that involves the pastor's wife. So it's quite a comprehensive program, and we've received many blessings through it.

It's been very, very well received over the years. Amen. Well, if anybody... I might also add, don't forget our website at doxology .us.

That's the domain name. Yes, I was just about to do that. And thank you for doing that.

doxology .us. And, well, this book that you have written seems to have gotten a lot of praise, and there's a lot of excitement swirling around about it amongst pastors and those in parachurch ministries.

And, of course, your publishers are very proud of this work that they have brought into print by you, and they're very thrilled that we are doing a second interview on it.

The Care of Souls Cultivating a Pastor's Heart. If you could, especially for the benefit of those who missed your first interview on this a couple of weeks ago, could you give us a summary of this book's purpose?

And then after that, we will not only take listener questions, but we will go on to pursue other areas of the book that we had not had an opportunity to cover last time.

Excellent. Yes, I'd be happy to. So this book is really an attempt to try to encapsulate, or get my arms around and pass on to others, the whole heritage of what's called the care of souls.

It's a rather broad topic, and it's one which belongs, of course, first of all, biblically to the heritage we have as biblical

Christians, looking at the ways by which our

Lord provides us through his word of addressing the spiritual needs of people, not merely in terms of the content of the holy scriptures, but also in terms of their impact, the actual changes that are worked by the

Holy Spirit by means of God's word. And so it's at once, at the same time, it's both personal and also a scriptural survey, and a summary, as best

I'm able, of the collective wisdom down through the ages of generations past.

So it has a view toward the past history, but also very keenly interested in the complexity of what it means to be

Christians in our own convoluted times, and specifically the challenges that this places upon pastors.

My goal is to, narrowly, to assist pastors, as it says in the subtitle, cultivate in a pastor's heart the inner attitude, the outlook, the disposition, if you will.

The Latin term for that is the habitus, that really informs pastoral work, so that in making the determinations in each circumstance, we're guided certainly by the direction of the

Holy Spirit through the word, but also learning from the experience of generations past of pastors, and then engaging in conversation with colleagues in the present.

So it's a collaborative work, the care of souls, and none of us is really capable, as I say in the book, of really even tying the shoes of our

Lord Jesus, who is the true shepherd of souls. And so, like John the Baptist, we always point to him, the one who is the

Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the whole world.

Great. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address, if they would like to join us on the air with a question of their own.

It's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

We already have an email. I usually only give a person's first name and their city and state, but since this is a pastor, especially since this is a pastor in your denomination,

I'll give you his full name. His name is Reverend Luke T. Zimmerman, and he is the pastor at Calvary Evangelical Lutheran Church in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

And this is a congregation, as I said, in the Missouri Synod. So Reverend Zimmerman asks, how have you or other pastors had to adjust teaching or pastoral practice as society has moved from being supportive or even neutral to the

Lord's law, natural law, to outright opposition to it? Excellent question.

And personal greetings to you, Luke. It's great to hear from you in this way. Do you know

Pastor Luke? Oh, yes. I go way back to his days in seminary. Oh, wow. I had the privilege of seeing him sitting in my classroom.

He was, a couple of years ago, a co -host for one interview. I think we interviewed

Chris Roseboro of Pirate Christian Radio, but he was sitting in the studio with me as co -host.

Wonderful man. Okay, that's a very perceptive question, and I think one that applies really across denominations.

How have I had to adjust my approach to ministry? Well, as you implied in the question, there was a time, and it's within living memory for us old -timers, when the culture did part of the heavy lifting in terms of, as you pointed out, the natural law.

There were boundaries. To be sure, people kicked over the traces. There were sinners in every generation, and sometimes the standards, the ethical standards that were accepted, morality and the culture, were not necessarily always observed.

So there were problems in past generations, but now the situation is far different.

I liken it, really, to attempting to navigate a course across very stormy seas without having the

North Star to guide us, so there's no longer any fixed determination of what is right and wrong, to be sure, but even what is basically true.

I mean, for instance, now we have the idea that each person has their own identity, apart from their own body, so biology and anatomy do no longer determine gender.

And, you know, we've had, obviously, sexual aberrations dating all the way back to the

Garden of Eden, but we've never had a situation where it was fruit basket totally upset in terms of fundamental human realities.

So, how have I had to adjust? I think this means a couple of things. For me, there's two aspects.

It's really a two -pronged answer. One is, I think there has to be a clarity regarding the revealed law of God, certainly in terms of the

Ten Commandments and all the moral commands and demands of our gracious God, because they're for our good.

And to be able to teach that, because, as the question implies, culture no longer goes even part of the way, so it's a blank slate.

But we do this, I might add, quickly, not because we want to impose restrictions on people, but because we want to help them to grasp their fundamental identity as created beings made in the image and likeness of God, both male and female.

And while this focuses, in our time, particularly on the sexual questions, it's not narrowly about that.

It's about being human. What it means to be a beloved child of God, made in His image, redeemed by the blood of Christ, sanctified by the

Holy Spirit for service to His honor and glory and to the benefit of our neighbors.

So that's one aspect of the basic teaching of the law.

But beyond that, I think there's also another aspect, and that is we live in a time in which people have no longer a collective identity or purpose, and that's because they've lost touch with the fundamental truth of what it means to live in the created world.

And here, your listeners, Chris, might even Google this. There is a rather insightful essay, in my opinion, published way back in 1993 by Robert Jensen called

How the World Lost Its Story. And that was, as you may remember, kind of at the cutting edge of what's now called postmodernism.

So turning a corner from the world in which there was such a thing as truth now to where everybody makes up their own truth.

And his contention is that's because we no longer live in an inhabitable world, a narratable world, a world that finds its origin in God, the maker of heaven and earth, no longer knows the biblical story, certainly, of how

God created the world in the first place and how he entered this world in the person of his son to ransom and redeem it, and how he actively works by means of his word in the midst of this world still today to create order out of chaos.

So people live in a chaotic environment, and it's absolutely inhuman.

So therefore, we have the joyous privilege, all of us Christians, be we pastors or laity, to be mirrors and avenues of his grace and mercy into this kind of a world.

Because we live as people who know their origin, who know their purpose, who know that their value does not reside in their own determination but in God's grace and mercy, and so they have a purpose and a direction.

And the world we live in makes up their life as they go along, and that's a rather dangerous world to live in, certainly.

We see that every day. And also a rather oppressive world, and the mounting incidence of depression, anxiety everywhere.

I think there's plenty of evidence for that. Great. Well, thank you so much.

That was a long answer. Yeah, well, I think that most of the time I do want long answers on this program, because if I have somebody who has written on a certain subject, they likely know a lot more than I do on that subject, and I like thorough answers.

As you may have noticed, I'm not the kind of talk show host that likes to butt into my guests' answers, which barely gives them the opportunity to speak, and I actually despise that kind of interview style.

So feel free to be as lengthy as you see fit. I will. But I want to thank

Pastor Luke, Luke Zimmerman from Calvary Evangelical Lutheran Church in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and also

I want to give a shout -out to a member of that church who's actually just recently become acquainted with me, and I him,

Logan Embry, and actually Logan is trying to work with me on setting up a friendly, brotherly debate between a

Lutheran and a Calvinist on baptismal regeneration, and I will keep you all abreast as to how that develops.

And by the way, the website, let me give a plug to this congregation, the website for Calvary Evangelical Lutheran Church in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

If you live near that area, want to visit there, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones near there, or want to go on vacation somewhere in the

Mechanicsburg area and you're looking for a church, it's calvarylutheranmechanicsburg .org,

calvarylutheranmechanicsburg .org, and that's spelled M -E -C -H -A -N -I -C -S -B -U -R -G.

One thing I wanted to mention about this question is that there is an effort, as you know, by many churches, even some that would be from historically, even up until recently, more conservative backgrounds, more conservative denominations, associations, fellowships, brotherhoods, whatever or however you want to describe their affiliations, that have become more and more accommodating to things that God has declared are abhorrent and an abomination and unnatural.

And people have a growing idea, it's probably always existed in the church, but it seems to be at its height in history now, where hurting someone's feelings, or making them feel uncomfortable because of their behavior or beliefs, is the worst sin or crime or injustice a

Christian can commit. And they change and alter their teachings, their worship, the content of their sermons, their creedal statements, to make people feel more and more comfortable in things that God has declared will send unrepentant men and women and children to hell.

And I have continued to repeat to my friends, many of them who are professing

Christians in denominations or associations other than the one

I am in, I'm a Reformed Baptist and we're fairly known for still being very conservative and strict adherents to the inerrant teachings of scripture.

But I have said to them when they think that a kinder and gentler approach should be had when it comes to, let's say, the

LBGTQ quote -quote community, homosexuals, the so -called transgendered individuals, now on the one hand, we are never to be hateful like those horrible people at the

Westboro Baptist Church who I do not even believe are Christians or brothers in Christ. They delight in the death of the wicked.

They have no interest in seeing people come to repentance and being saved by the grace and mercy of Christ.

They love and enjoy the fact that unrepentant sinners are going to hell. They seem to take great glee and excitement and joy in telling people that.

But we don't want to be imitators of that, because that is coming from,

I believe, an unregenerate heart. But at the same time, we are not doing any favors to anyone, whether they be a

Christian or not a Christian, when we are making them more comfortable in their state of unrepentance, are we?

Absolutely not. I think that is unfortunately a very prevalent trend, particularly obviously in mainline denominations.

But I think probably most, even Biblical Christians, have a sense of, you know, okay, we don't want to be offensive.

And too often we buy the line, we are fed by the media and others that hold to the

Biblical categories regarding male and female, and chastity and faithfulness within marriage is antiquated.

You are kind of on the wrong side of history. And if you are too vocal in advocating that kind of life, then you are bigoted and you are hateful.

And that is a sinister influence. And I have seen it too often that it even makes people who really have the right convictions rather hesitant about even teaching their family and speaking what is on their mind.

And I think that is one of the challenges we have today as Biblical Christians, is to free people to speak positively the truth.

You know, the scriptures say that, speaking the truth in love. We grow up in every way into him who is the head.

So in denomination after denomination, unfortunately we had that happen just this very summer.

Our cousins in the other branch of Lutheranism, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, just simply abandoned the structures that have been held by generations past in their own communion.

And because, ostensibly because they want to be kind and reaching out and supportive.

And of course, unfortunately it is the exact opposite. You enable people to continue in their error.

As you said, they end up ultimately losing their faith and end up in God's punishment in hell.

That is not a kind thing to do. Yes. Now, I might add, Chris, if I could.

There is a resource that came across not too long ago that I would recommend to your readers, especially the pastors.

It is a book by a gentleman by the name of Kyle Harper, H -A -R -P -E -R. And it is titled,

From Shame to Sin. From Shame to Sin. And so, his point there is that he traces the history of how the ancient church, before we had a so -called

Christian culture, addressed some of the very same trends that we see around us today, that really are evidence of overt paganism.

And in order to attract people, if you will, to the Christian faith, they didn't cave in on any of these things.

In fact, instead, they became, if anything, even stronger and insistent on teaching sexual morality and faithfulness.

Why? Because it's an expression of who they were as creatures of God, and as redeemed children of God, and living faithfully within marriage, and living abstinently apart from marriage.

That was part and parcel of their whole confession of the faith once delivered to the saints.

And it's really a very fascinating study, because I really think myself that there are many parallels between our current situation, you want to call it post -modern, post -Christian, whatever it is.

It's really an expression of a resurgence of a pagan worldview that God is whoever you determine he is, and you've got to follow your own inclinations.

The ancients and the Bible calls this the passion, which would lead us further away from God.

So the early Christians, instead of coddling or enabling that mindset, helped people.

And you read the New Testament, you see instance after instance how people turned in repentance and faith to the

Lord Jesus, and found a newness of life and a purpose and a direction. And it's written in the book of Acts, you know, the

Lord added to their number those who were being saved. This is, you know, faithfulness in the scriptures is so very important, but I think in this area especially, it is a challenge.

But it's for the sake of the growth and the mission of the Church that we need to remain faithful.

Yes, and we also need to honor, obey, and love God and fear

God more than our friends, family, loved ones, fellow citizens of this nation, or just members of any community around the globe.

We cannot be more fearful of how they are going to react to the truth than we are to how

God is going to treat us according to our disobedience.

So I'm assuming that, if you want to be very succinct about the answer to Pastor Zimmerman's questions, is that you, do you adjust at all to the changing winds of the culture?

I think, you know, I wouldn't use the verb adjust.

That implies that I'm going to change what I'm saying in order to suit the, having itching ears, you know, they accumulate teachers according to their own preferences.

We don't do that. But we've got to know where they scratch, where they're itching so they can be scratched, you know.

So I need to be aware of what is it that, what's the impetus to this, what's underneath it, and that really actually leads me kind of into my book because that's the premise to help to really be a spiritual physician.

You have to be alert to what are the symptoms, and even more, what's underneath those symptoms?

What's the diagnosis? What's the core problem? So that I can then use the one scriptural word, the unchanging truth of God, to address this shifting circumstance.

And that means I need to have all the savvy that the Lord can provide.

Yes, and perhaps be up -to -date. No, we don't adjust the message, but we do tailor the message. Right. And perhaps one of those things would be to be more up -to -date on the apologetic involved, if you're speaking specifically about homosexuality, to know how to respond to those who would be deemed as the brilliant elite amongst scholars, theologians, and others in the halls of academia who defend homosexuality as even a biblical privilege or a biblical liberty.

We have to, in our day and age, be more capable of biblically and theologically responding to that false argument.

And, of course, it is no longer merely the fact that there are many involved in unrepentant depravities, such as homosexuality or any of those behaviors that come under the

LBGTQ umbrella. It's no longer, please stop hurting our feelings, you're wounding us deeply by not allowing us to participate in every realm of activity in the church that you enjoy.

Please stop doing that. You're hurting us. Please welcome us. It's no longer that. It's, how dare you?

You are an abomination. You are a sinner and a wicked individual for even daring to criticize homosexuality, and you are the one who is unlike Christ.

You are the one who is rebellious against his way of living and teaching.

Well, of course, that's the sinister aspect of it. You can see the devil's hoofprints over all of that, because he is a liar and a father of lies, and he twists godly things to become in service of his goals, which is to condemn people, to accuse them.

So that's always the challenge, I think. So, for the point that you made, that we speak this compassionately, we take no delight in the death of sinners, just as God does not.

So, therefore, the goal is always to speak and to save the lost. Right.

It is not, the message is not, be like me because I'm better than you.

It is, please embrace the only remedy that could save my wretched soul.

I have been rescued from my sin and from the pit of hell. I want you to be rescued, too.

That is more of the attitude that we should have, is it not? Absolutely, and more than that, we have

Jesus Christ as a light that no darkness can overcome, and we're living in an increasingly darkened world.

I mean, even the most diligent, un -crass, unbeliever, and profligate, if you will, is forced to admit that, you know, the statistics show this, the rise of suicide, the aberrations everywhere that happen.

You know, we have a, we live in a world, as I said earlier, that's becoming increasingly inhuman, and it's not a healthy place to live in.

We have a life that we proclaim that is not of this world, and yet it brings hope and joy into this world.

You know, Chris, I also am reminded, when I did some of this research looking at the ancient church, now to be sure, they weren't getting, you know, they didn't have liberal

Christians because they didn't have Christians, but, you know, the challenge to be faithful to the scriptures is always there in every generation.

And by the way, could you, could you pick up, could you? The accusation that you Christians are really enemies of the human race, there's even a

Latin phrase for that, that you are, you are, you know, inimical to what it really means to be truly human, because you don't let me do what

I feel like doing. And so that was the accusation leveled against Christians, specifically, of course, regarding marriage and sexuality, but also, as you read in 1

Corinthians, that includes also greed and envy, all those things that were so manifest in the ancient world and still are today.

So Christians, if you will, marched to a different drummer, and for that reason, they were persecuted.

Many of the great persecutions of the ancient church happened specifically because the accusation was leveled that you are undermining what it means to be a generally free human being, and so you are, you're despicable for that reason.

In fact, could we pick up right where you left off? Could you pick up right where you left off when we return from our first break?

Okay. And if anybody would like to join us, if anybody else, I should say, would like to join us, our email address is chrisorenzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And by the way, I forgot to mention to Pastor Luke Zimmerman, please give me your full mailing address because you have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today,

The Care of Souls, Cultivating a Pastor's Heart by Reverend Harold L.

Sankbile. And get that to us as soon as you can, and we'll have cvbbs .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship that free copy out to you, which has been given to us compliments of Lexham Press, and we thank the dear folks at Lexham Press for their generosity.

So if you'd like to join us as well with your own question, our email address is chrisorenzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. We'll be right back with Harold Sankbile after these messages.

I'm so grateful to our Sovereign God that while manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron, a major Bible conference,

I providentially met Pastor Andrew Smith of Christ Reformed Community Church just south of Jacksonville, Florida, right off I -95 in St.

Johns County. Andrew is certainly the kind of pastor that is a perfect match for my radio show and has already proven to be an ideal guest.

Christ Reformed Community Church shares my conviction that God is both creator and sustainer of the universe.

He rules and reigns providentially over our lives. He directs not only the historical events of the world, but also the personal events of individuals.

I agree with Christ Reformed Community Church that the very purpose of the church is to make disciples, that we are tasked with the responsibility to evangelize locally, nationally and globally, and that we are to equip the saints for the work of service.

Unlike the man -centered, seeker -sensitive movement, they do not gauge the success of biblical discipleship by how many people are in a church, but by the faithful ministry of God's Word and Gospel.

For more details on Christ Reformed Community Church, visit ChristReformedCC .com.

That's ChristReformedCC .com. Or call 904 -955 -9881.

That's 904 -955 -9881. Tell Pastor Andrew that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm Pastor Andrew Smith, and I'd like to urge you to consider joining Christ Reformed Community Church of St.

John's, Florida in financially supporting Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.

If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at IRBSSeminary .org.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and my friend Chris Arnzen and I are excited to be attending another

G3 conference together in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th, on a theme that is vitally important to all of us,

Worship Matters. I'll be on the speaking lineup with Eric Thomas, Joel Beeky, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Phil Johnson, Tom Askell, Vody Balcom, and the world -renowned preacher, teacher, and author

John MacArthur. A fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn, nephew of the notorious false teacher,

Benny Hinn. Kosti has repented of the word -faith heresies of his youth, and is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and cessationist in California.

Come join me and Chris Arnzen at G3 2020, January 16th through the 18th, in Atlanta, by registering at g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com. See you there. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshipped and how

He shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, this is

Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with a little less than 90 minutes to go, is

Harold L. Sinkbile, Executive Director of Doxology, the Lutheran Center for Spiritual Care and Counsel.

We are discussing part two of a discussion that we began a couple of weeks ago on his new book,

The Care of Souls Cultivating a Pastor's Heart. And our email address, if you have questions, is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And before the break, you were talking about the persecutions in the apostolic era and in the new, or the first century of the church.

Very harsh and brutal persecutions of Christians who were standing firm to the truth regardless of the outcome, and if you could pick up where you left off.

Right, I think there's kind of a popular attitude that those persecutions were because people were offended at the proclamation of Jesus as God.

Now that's true, of course. But where the practical application of that came in is in the daily life.

So in a world in which people were free to live unbridled lives of sexual passion any way they wanted to, and the ancient world, particularly under the

Greek influence that then came into the Roman civilization as well, same sex behavior was admired and fostered and encouraged even among the upper class people, the men who had wives, for example, in order to procreate heirs in terms of their inheritance.

They also had sexual liaisons with their male slaves and young men. Now this was very common in that kind of a time.

So one of the chief reasons for the persecutions was that Christians didn't allow that.

They said, this is anathema, forbidden by Christians. God has forbidden this.

And so therefore we live a different life, a life of holiness. And if you look in 1

Corinthians 6, you see that many of those early Christians that came into the congregation at Corinth had participated in that kind of lifestyle.

So they had been greedy and ambitious in terms of earthly possessions.

So that was part and parcel of their life. Sexually they were promiscuous. They were also engaging in what we today would call gay and lesbian behavior, although that,

I might add, is a recent innovation, the terminology. The Bible simply calls it what it is, having sex with a member of your own sex.

So that happened. And so such were some of you, writes the apostle.

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. So they didn't enable this to continue.

They called people to repentance, which included a new life and a joyful commitment to faithfulness within their state, whether married or single.

So that's nothing new, really. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

And I often say, if you want to know how to navigate this chaotic world, take a fresh look at the

New Testament, because those people, back in apostolic days, were facing the exact same cultural environment that we are today.

Amen. And we have a question from a listener in Longmont, Colorado.

His name is Kurt, and he is asking a question about the Lutheran Center for Spiritual Care and Counsel.

His question is, isn't that what church and ministry is? I guess he's questioning the need for a parachurch organization.

Oh, yeah. Well, exactly. That's the whole point. We're not trying to create something separate from the church.

This is very much geared to what happens in the local congregation. And he's very perceptive.

The church and the ministry together collectively make up the body of Christ. And so our focus is on both.

While chiefly we're looking at strengthening the skill set, if you will, of pastors for intelligent ministry in these chaotic times, we also are strengthening laity who have leadership responsibility in their congregation so they can be more of what they actually are.

We're not trying to supplement or substitute what's happening in the church. We're simply trying to strengthen what's going on there.

Great. Yes. You're not intending to replace the church. You're intending to further equip those who are in leadership in the church.

Exactly. Well, thank you, Kurt. And if you want to give me your full mailing address in Longmont, Colorado, I will have

CVVBS .com ship you a free copy of the book we are addressing,

The Care of Souls, Cultivating a Pastor's Heart, by Harold L. Finkbeil, our guest today. And since you are a first -time questioner, you'll also receive a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB. So send us your full shipping address if you'd like both of those shipped out to you at no charge to you.

And, of course, we thank Lexham Press again for being so generous as to provide us with copies of The Care of Souls for listeners.

One of the issues that comes up a lot on this program as far as people sending in questions is the fact that sometimes congregations, and it doesn't even really exclusively involve large or massively large or megachurch congregations, although those types of gatherings are going to be more prone to this, but even a tiny church could do this.

But I hear a lot from people, perhaps even especially off the air, not necessarily with questions for guests during a live program, but people who feel ignored, left out, not really being viewed as someone important in the life of the church.

And this would be not only in their minds, it could be true, and perhaps it's a figment of their imagination, I don't know, because obviously

I don't know a lot of these people who are contacting me, but they feel as if the pastors, the elders, the deacons, and even the fellow congregants really do not notice their existence, do not have compassion for them when they're going through trials and tribulations, or even just be recognized as someone that they would like to have over their home for fellowship and a meal.

But if you could respond to that very important aspect of pastoral ministry and even the ministry of every congregation member.

That's so very, very important. And I think you're right, I think this is a growing trend and is probably a symptom again of our times in which people live more and more isolated.

It's really kind of a paradox if you think about it. The more technologically savvy and equipped we are for communication purposes, the more isolated we become.

Even such a thing as social media, that on the surface it should connect people, but what happens is the public profile that a person has on Facebook may have little, if any, resemblance to their real life.

So people live increasingly isolated lives, and people have noted this within the fellowship of the church and also within society as a whole, that we have a whole growing epidemic of loneliness.

I learned, it wasn't that long, a couple months ago, I learned that the United Kingdom, Her Majesty's government, has even a minister of loneliness to address this problem in society, people living in complete isolation.

So, obviously it should not be so within the body of Christ, because if one member rejoices, we all rejoice together.

If one member is hurting or sorrowing, we all mourn together, we hurt together.

So that's part of what it means to be Christian. And yet it doesn't happen naturally in my experience.

I had 31 years in the parish, and what I've seen now since in my teaching ministry, it does take some deliberate effort to connect people with people so that we're aware of each other, that we make the effort.

And I think as you mentioned, Chris, just simply what some would call socializing is really hospitality and to open our homes to each other.

That's the first step, and then we begin to open our hearts as well. I know, for example, my wife is handicapped, and it's wonderful, she has a number of friends that make specific efforts to come and to visit her so that when she's unable any longer to get out like she would like to, she has that connection with Christian friends.

So we need that effort, and I think that should be a big priority, especially in our time.

That too, then, as you mentioned, is a phenomenon not just in the big church where you would expect it, but even in the small church.

So you want to know how to reach people with the gospel. I often say maybe the kitchen table is one of the best tools for evangelization.

If I invite somebody to sit down and share a meal with me, I can talk about what's important to me. I can consecrate the meal by word and by prayer.

I can invite them to talk with me, and then I can give answer for the hope that is within me.

And then we see how history repeats itself, and as the early church grew, at different speeds, of course, but by God's grace, it happened through natural interaction as Christians lived their lives of faith and gave an answer concerning the hope that is within them.

Amen. And by the way, I don't know if you're familiar with a fairly recent publication by Rosaria Butterfield.

Are you familiar with Rosaria Butterfield? I certainly have heard that name.

I'm not personally aware. Rosaria has been on this program several times.

She is a former tenured professor at Syracuse University in New York, and prior to her conversion to Christ, she was an openly leftist lesbian, and by God's grace and mercy, which initially she viewed as possibly a hostile or just purely negative interaction with a local pastor, a member of the

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America. What she initially viewed as just a right -winger attacking her became a friendship when this pastor and his wife invited

Rosaria into their home for meals, and she became a very close and intimate friend of this couple, this

Christian couple, pastor and his wife, and then, by the grace and mercy of God, she was saved, repented of her lesbianism, and all of the baggage that comes with the leftist, antagonistic, rebellious mindset that hates the things of God.

She became a full -fledged Bible -believing Christian, and saved by the mercy and blood of Christ.

And then she was introduced to a single pastor by this pastor friend, and she eventually became that pastor's wife.

Wow. It's part of God's grace and action. Amen. Well, Rosaria wrote a book called The Gospel Comes With a

House Key, Practicing Radically Ordinary Hospitality in Our Post -Christian

World. In fact, I'm going to make sure you get a copy of it. That would be great. Thank you. But I just wanted to let our listeners know that if you would like to get that book, you can go to CVVBS .com.

CVVBS .com, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and you can order that book. Now we are going to our midway break.

This is a longer -than -normal break, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because they have their own public service announcements and local things to air, which they are required to do by the

FCC to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So while they are doing that, we air our own globally heard commercials.

And so I ask of you to use this time wisely, not only write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, but also please write down questions for Harold Sankbile about what we are discussing today, which is his latest book, the title of which is

The Care of Souls Cultivating a Pastor's Heart. So write down those questions and send them to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves personal or private matter. Don't go away.

We'll be back with Harold Sankbile after these messages from our sponsors. Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture, and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well -grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.

If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

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He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Gotta tell you, for my money,

Chris Arnson's radio program is just the best. Iron.

Criticizing. Iron. I think that's what it's called. This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV, with Phil Johnson of Grace to You, inviting everybody to come to the

G3 conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is.

It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnson was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.

It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place.

So tons of stuff going on. Tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear

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Go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com. See you there! I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, host of A Visit to the

Pastor's Study, and I am so thankful to be part of the advertising family right here on Iron Sharpens Iron.

If you live on Long Island or if you're visiting the metropolitan New York area, I invite you to join us for worship at The Haven on Sundays at 4 .30

p .m. We meet at the Ascension Lutheran Church facility, 33 Bayshore Road in Deer Park, New York.

At The Haven, you'll find God's saturated singing, gospel -rich ministry, and great commission opportunities.

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p .m., 33 Bayshore Road, Deer Park, New York. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Did you know that all believers are priests? In 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 9, the

Apostle Peter describes Christ's church as comprising a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

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John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church go to hopereformedli .net

That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711

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Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Ironson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

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That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

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Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And remember, you can call cvbbs .com

at their toll free number 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231

Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time and ask them about the two books that they are still giving away with a purchase that would be

True Love by James M. Renahan and also A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cohn my favorite of all biographies of all time and you can get both of those books for free with purchases and you can find out more details by asking them when you call them

Before I return to my interview with Harold L. Senkpile we just have a couple of announcements to make

First of all, I hope that as many of you who are men in ministry leadership as possible will join me this

December for a phenomenal conference coming up in New York City There's no better place, in my opinion, to spend the

Christmas season than in Manhattan and this Thursday, not this

Thursday and Friday, this December on Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th the

Foundations Conference is going to be held in Manhattan and I will be there, God willing and they have a phenomenal roster of speakers, as they always do including

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Paul Washer, Rev. Jeff Thomas Rev. Armin Tomasian, Richard Colwell Jr.

and Andrew Quigley That's Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th at the Foundations Conference in New York City and remember, this is for men in ministry leadership only because the venue can only hold less than 200 people so register as quickly as possible by going to thefoundationsconference .com

thefoundationsconference .com Then in January, from Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th

I'm packing up my bags again and heading down south this time to the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia which is a suburb of Atlanta for the annual

G3 Conference I just love this event beyond description The G3 stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory, by the way and this

January, their theme is on Worship Matters and they always have an extraordinary lineup of impressive speakers a very long list of speakers including my friend

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio my other friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries my friend

Dr. Tom Askell, who is the Executive Director of Founders Ministries the Calvinistic ministry in the

Southern Baptist Convention a world -renowned Reformed writer, preacher, and teacher and pastor

Derek Thomas is going to be there We have Stephen J.

Nichols, the President of Reformation Bible College a college founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries Kosti Hinn, who you've been hearing a lot about on this show in fact,

Kosti is going to be my guest coming up again on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Kosti Hinn is the nephew of the notorious heretic

Benny Hinn and the reason why Kosti would not be upset by saying that is because Kosti spends a lot of his time, especially outside of his own pulpit warning people and exposing the damnable and dangerous and deceptive teachings of the

Word of Faith movement including those of his own uncle who he has openly and publicly stated he knows for certain is a charlatan in addition to being a heretic and dangerous man so Kosti Hinn is on the roster at this event as well he is currently a

Reformed Baptist pastor and a cessationist now in Arizona, you've been hearing

James White say he's pastoring in California well, his church just sent him to fill in a needed position at a church in Arizona so he is there now and we have on the roster at this event

Phil Johnson, the Executive Director of Grace to You which is the media ministry of John MacArthur and John MacArthur himself will be at this event and many other people on the lineup if you want to register, go to g3conference .com

g3conference .com and I urge you not only to register to attend but if you have a business or parachurch organization and you want to promote it to the body of Christ this is an ideal place to register for an exhibitor's booth just like I will be manning for Iron Trip and Zion Radio for my fourth year in a row and I have always been blessed in innumerable ways beyond my ability to describe thoroughly and adequately by having an exhibitor's booth there with such a large crowd and so if you want to get an exhibitor's booth before they run out of room they're going to run out of exhibitor's booth room long before they run out of room for people who just want to attend so I would strongly urge you if that is your plan to register for an exhibitor's booth do it quickly but also if you just want to attend go to g3conference .com

g3conference .com and I look forward to seeing you there last but not least if you love this show and you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves you love listening to the guests and topics that sometimes are never heard anywhere else you love sharing the free downloadable mp3s with family, friends, and loved ones please help us to remain on the air we are in really urgent need of your donations in fact we now have a negative balance of $150 in our checking account we are on the verge of going off the air because our live streaming bill needs to be paid the rent of this facility where the studio is needs to be paid we have had one of the worst months since we began as far as donations we were getting a steady stream of donations coming in for the longest time they've nearly dried up completely except for a tiny handful of very faithful and precious listeners who donate on a regular basis and we thank you from the depths of our heart for your generosity but many of you have just stopped giving we need your donations please if you want us to stay on the air go to www .irontropenzyanradio

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.com and you can send in a check via snail mail made out to www .irontropenzyanradio .com never siphon money away from your regular giving to your own local church where you are a member in order to give to IronTropenZyanRadio never do that never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to IronTropenZyanRadio those are two commands of God you have to provide for your church you have to provide for your family but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands and you want us to stick around it really matters to you that we remain on the air please help us if you have that extra money please help us soon please donate as generously as you can and as frequently as you can go to www .irontropenzyanradio

.com click support then click click to donate now if you want to advertise with us send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line as long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what we believe you don't have to believe identically with me but you need to be promoting something that is at least compatible with what we believe then please send me that email because we really are in urgent need of your advertising dollars as well that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line if you are not a member of a local bible believing church and you are not even prayerfully looking for one you're living in rebellion against God you can't live as a maverick lone wolf

Christian such a person does not exist in the scriptures you cannot forsake the assembling of the brethren and be obedient to God so I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and no matter where you live

I can help you find a church send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put

I need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question to Harold Sankvile regarding his new book

The Care of Souls Cultivating a Pastor's Heart that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter we have a listener in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania Susan Margaret has a question for you

Harold she asks do you not believe that the woman who is married to a man that desires to enter into the pastoral ministry must be equally called don't you believe that a woman who is not suited to be a pastor's wife could be the downfall of a man otherwise perfectly suited for that ministry but if she is not his helpmeet in very appropriate and necessary ways it could ruin an otherwise wonderful ministry

Harold are you there? we somehow got disconnected from Harold Sankvile I don't know what happened to Harold well it looks like can you hear me?

oh now I can hear you ok sorry I had my phone muted there for a minute so yeah I heard the question and it's an excellent question of course any question that begins with do you not believe kind of implies that there is a conviction behind it and I would certainly echo the sentiment of the questioner a woman who is married to a pastor has a unique vocation a very godly one by the way and an important one and all too often these valiant women who are helpmeets to their husbands who have been called into the ministry are kind of lone rangers and that's unfortunate they're so very very important and I can testify to that Jane and I have been married for 48 years and she is an inestimable help to me personally obviously but also as a shepherd it's always good to have a wife who is sensitive who is certainly believing

Christian who values the work that the Lord is doing through the ministry and therefore we're doubly blessed to have such a woman at our side as a pastor the only quibble that I would have is that she's equally called to me and of course that may be a matter of terminology but there's a long history within the church particularly within my communion in the

Lutheran faith the doctrine of call is a specific one and yet on the other hand equally important is the whole area of vocation which is also at root means call so we believe biblically speaking if you read in 1

Peter that every Christian is part of the royal priesthood a holy nation to proclaim the excellencies of him who called out of darkness into his marvelous light so every

Christian in that sense has a holy calling but that calling may be to be a friend to be a neighbor to be a butcher, baker, candlestick maker but certainly within the home husband and wife they are holy calling and those are godly vocations so I would agree there the uniqueness of the pastoral call is that it's made clear in Ephesians for example that God gave gifts to men a pastor, a teacher is part of his design within the body of Christ you see to it that his word is proclaimed his sacraments administered that people are brought up to the fullness of their stature of the fullness of their faith in Christ so that's a specific kind of a narrower understanding of call but I certainly agree that that's so very important and praise

God for those godly women who are real heroes of the faith heroines

I guess to be specific who take up that unique challenge to be by their husband's side to minister yes

I would agree with you that there is something very unique and specific about a man's call into pastoral ministry and I believe and I'm sure you do as well since I know that it's the teaching of the

Missouri Synod that only men are given the call to be pastors or shepherds over a congregation of both adult men and women and children but at the same time

I understand or at least I think I understand the listener's question in regard to how a is a woman suited to be a pastor's wife and if she is already the wife of this man should her being not suited to be a pastor's wife prevent him from entering into the okay because there are women who who number one you may have a man who married a woman believing she was truly

Christian and she turned out to be a false convert or you could have a man whose wife is hermit -like that wants little or nothing to do with the saints and the congregation you could have all kinds of reasons why she is not not an appropriate not an appropriate fit for a pastor's wife so what would you recommend a young man considering entering into the ministry and yet he's either engaged to or already married to a woman who just she might even say to him

I don't want to be a pastor's wife this is not what I want in my life right well

I'll just tell a little anecdote to begin with when Jane told one of her high school friends that she was going to marry a minister oh that woman laughed out loud that you're going to be a pastor's wife wow and so there's a perspective you know a perception out there that it's really burdensome well so yeah

I didn't pick up on all those nuances so thank you well those were assumptions on my part oh okay

I would think that there's two things one a man who we believe there's such a thing as an inner call that is a desire to serve the lord and his church in that capacity but then ultimately it's only after he has thoroughly explored this that it's clear that he's qualified in terms of knowledge of God's word and of Christian doctrine and the practice of the church so that he's able to take up this office and then within our denomination at least there's a call of a congregation that was extended to him after he's certified for this office so he comes into the whole process already married then we take very great care to sit down not just with the gentleman who wants to be a pastor but also with his wife and talk with her what's her understanding of the faith obviously how does she see her role as wife and now as pastor's wife we want to explore that so that it doesn't become something that's a surprise for her down the road and then on the other hand if a man is single certainly he's one that looks at those qualities within the women within the the group of women that he knows that that becomes something that he's always aware of as he looks to this so it's but I think that the duality of that vocation and his first calling is to be her husband and then his calling very close to that is to be a shepherd within Christ's church they need not be in conflict but one must always bear that in mind and keep that in the proper balance we have an anonymous listener who has a question for you oh by the way

Susan Margaret you have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing as well if you did not send in a question and win one during part one of this the discussion that began a couple of weeks ago you have won a free copy of The Care of Souls Cultivating a

Pastor's Heart and we would urge you after you've finished reading it or immediately give it to your pastor because we do want especially pastors to be blessed by this an anonymous listener asks

I know that a candidate for a pastor who the bible would also describe as a bishop or an overseer or an elder has to rule his house well and that would include having children under his roof who are living in obedience whether they are truly regenerate or not how do you view men in the ministry especially those in pastoral ministry who have adult children living outside of their homes that are a public scandal and living in open rebellion perhaps getting abortions perhaps living with unmarried people and perhaps even living in the life of homosexuality and the list could go on and on are these men still qualified to pastor the household of God well having his children in all subjection is the statement clearly there and that belongs to the calling of every

Christian father but specifically as the questioner rightly pointed out

I'm uniquely expected of a pastor and I'll say two things about this one we are charged by our

Lord to bring up the children and nurture and admonition of the Lord and bringing them up doesn't stop when they graduate from high school or college that's a lifelong process of course but the direct responsibility

I think as was implied in that question does come to a point where the man who is a pastor no longer has direct influence over that person's life he still remains father and he still is concerned for their welfare and their godliness their godly character their faith of course first of all and how they live their life but he's not a inquisitor and that he is not charged with the responsibility to be a police officer so to speak enforcing the regulations either secular or divine so what do

I say about that I think I would say we approach such a man who has a circumstance like that in his family with compassion and I would deal with that on a case by case basis

I wouldn't say automatically but because a grown an adult child has departed from the faith or has chosen a lifestyle clearly in conflict with god's word that that would disqualify the man from office

I don't think we can say that biblically you know there are instance after instance of situations in the scriptures themselves where children departed from the faith they were brought up in and yet god's grace and mercy continues that that individual serves an important role within god's plan so I wouldn't exclude a man from on the basis of that but I would certainly say that we need to come alongside a man like that and his wife to assist them and support them in their role because the body of christ as a whole has a vested interest in the welfare of the entire flock so any one sheep who has gone stray you know as our lord teaches in the parable we go out and seek that what is so rather than being horribly scandalized by this

I guess I would ask the question what are what are the individuals within the flock doing about this rather than being horrified of what's going on in their family's life have they prayerfully and compassionately assisted have they actually themselves personally reached out to these individuals

I think that goes with the territory as well great and by the way anonymous if you want to receive a free copy of this book that we are addressing by our guest today

Harold Sankbile the care of souls cultivating a pastor's heart send us an email with your full name and mailing address we obviously will not disclose that on the air and you will receive by compliments of Lexham press and also compliments of CVVBS a free copy of the care of souls cultivating a pastor's heart and we would urge you after you are finished unless you are a pastor yourself if you would please pass this on to your pastor or some pastor that you know after you read it we would be grateful because we especially want pastors to have this book

I want you before we go to our final break to address anything you may be aware of right now that we have not addressed in part one of this discussion a couple of weeks ago or in today's discussion well thank you for the opportunity

I guess since we're kind of revolving all these questions around the book which

I've written thank you for promoting it and I thank Lexham for Lexham Press for providing those free copies to the questioners and that's very helpful the real core of the idea within this book as I suggested at the beginning is to help pastors to get their arms around the longer heritage of what it means to be a shepherd of souls and the language that was used in the earliest centuries of the church was that the pastor is really a physician of souls that he explores the symptoms that are evident in terms of the spiritual fallout if you will of guilt or shame that is the sins that have been committed by the individual and also here's a topic maybe for future discussion the sins that have been committed against that Christian and we ascend against that leaves us with a lot of spiritual baggage as well so how does a pastor intelligently address this and that's where we learn from the longer heritage of pastoral work is that we explore it like a medical doctor working from symptoms to diagnosis to treatment and that's kind of a thread that works its way throughout this book and I encourage your listeners to explore that and get a hold of a copy if they would it is accessible by the way to an interested lay person and it's full of anecdotes from my own ministry not anecdotes but examples anonymous of course in most cases and then the there's a personal story woven throughout my own childhood growing up on a farm and what

I learned about disposition of a farmer a hobbitist being a farmer and what that informed my whole life growing up and how that attitude was then carried over into ministry when

I was called into ministry so that we work out of an aptitude or an attitude a disposition that is shaped and framed by God himself to be always on the lookout for Christ to develop those eyes and ears of a true shepherd like Jesus said and you know his as I should say he was an example of Jesus who looked at people as sheep without a shepherd so his heart went out to them and his whole thrust of everything that he did in his public preaching but also his individual conversation with people was highly perceptive very focused on the actual needs not just the presenting symptoms and bringing them to the fullness of life was found to faith in him so that's the thrust of the book in which

I'd like to explore perhaps further conversations as well great and we're going to be going to our final break right now if anybody has a question of your own please send it in as quickly as possible because we are rapidly running out of time the email address again is chris arnton at gmail dot com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail dot com as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter by the way i just have a couple of announcements to make since reverend zimmerman in the beginning of the program brought up how if at all a pastor is supposed to adjust his teaching and practice to an ever changing culture you might be interested in the fact that we just got during this interview a confirmation from a pastor named ryan glesman of the community church of god in cleo michigan he is going to be on our program god willing a week from today monday september twenty third and he is the brother of the man that claims to be the husband of mayor pete budigieg or budigieg of south of uh...

the mayor of south bend indiana who is running for president the first or at least the only current candidate for president of the united states that is an open and proud and defiant and uncompromising homosexual and not only that but claiming that his version of allegedly christianity uh...

that his uh... way that he views and practices his so -called christian faith is a superior version of christianity than the historical and traditional and biblical model of the faith that we have uh...

and for us to be even criticizing or proclaiming that homosexuality is an unnatural and damnable activity in mister budigieg's uh...

in his mind that is in itself a sinful teaching and practice to be opposing what he would call his uh...

his lifestyle or whatever he would call it uh... so the brother of the man that is allegedly married to pete budigieg he is a pastor who is faithful to the scriptures on this issue and he's going to be our guest a week from today god willing and also this might be of great interest to my guest today and all of the lutherans listening in fact everybody outside of lutheranism who enjoys as i do the lutheran satire videos well hans feeney uh...

the pastor of river of life lutheran church in shanahan illinois he is our guest on tuesday the day after that uh...

next week i'm talking about uh... tuesday september twenty fourth from four to six p .m.

pastor hans feeney of the creator of the lutheran satire and that should be a very enjoyable and humorous time the pastor hans feeney by the way chris if you would please give my personal greeting to hans who was the head of my class from back in the day little did i know that he was so gifted at that time oh he's hilarious well i'm looking forward to that interview with bated breath uh...

being somebody who loves humor but uh... we're going to that break right now and uh...

so send in those questions immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chris arnzen at gmail dot com chris arnzen at gmail dot com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages with our final segment reverend hans site file and more of our discussion one sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers i know you all use batteries everyday so i'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use battery depot dot com for all your battery needs at battery depot dot com they're changing the status quo they're flipping the script they're sticking it to the man in other words they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new dependable and affordable ordering from battery depot dot com ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries you can count on to work properly at competitive prices whether you need 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and about uh... two minutes time to summarize what you most want to have etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today harold when it comes to the care of souls and cultivating a pastor's heart well i think the uh...

the reality is that every pastor needs to have his eyes tuned in two directions first of all unto the lord jesus who has commissioned him and secondly to the uh...

sheep and the lambs of whom over whom he's been given responsibility uh...

within their local environment so we have to you know as any shepherd will have a a keen eye toward predators toward dangers toward afflictions among the sheep uh...

so that duality of vision is so very very important for for the pastor today and i might add uh...

kristin you know we all need to keep our pastors in our prayers uh... that god's spirit may direct them faithfully intelligently uh...

care for the flock of god which is purchased with his own blood not easily done praise god yes uh...

but i think it's a an often overlooked thing in the life of christians prayer for pastors the encouragement uh...

to pastors uh... to let them know that you really are appreciating their ministry of the word and their ministry is under shepherds and to build them up in truthful waves obviously we don't want people flattering anybody with false praise but uh...

look for every truthful reason to of lift up your pastor and courage and uh...

i want to thank you so much for being our guest again on our trip inside radio and i look forward to you returning uh...

to discuss other matters on this program i want to remind our listeners that the book that we have been addressing the care of souls uh...

cultivating a pastor's heart that is published by lexham press their website is l e x h a m press dot com and you also go to cvb bs dot com to order the book cv cumberland valley bbs bible book service dot com cvb bs dot com wanna also uh...

remind you to continue praying for a pastor who is a very close friend of mine we've already mentioned him in the beginning of the program pastor joe jackowitz the founder and presidents of first love radio livestreams this program every day and you'll also hear him preaching every day immediately after on sharpens iron radio at six p m eastern time pastor joe jackowitz of christ bible church in pleasant in california for those of you tuned in late uh...

as you may recall we were recently uh... we recently received a very scary prognosis that's uh...

pastor jack what's his leukemia was so aggressive and so fatal that that's uh...

his uh... prognosis was that he had a forty to sixty percent chance of survival uh...

well we've got the much better news that he is in pre remission he has already been sent home from the hospital two weeks early uh...

and we are praising god for this this wonderful uh... just glorious news and we ask you to keep praying for him because as many of you may know from personal experience there are have been many folks who have gone into remission with cancer but then it returns pray that pastor joe is completely purged of this disease there's many more years to declare the goodness of god and uh...

praise honor and glory of jesus christ on this earth before he is called home so we look forward to hearing even more praise more praise reports from joe jack what's in updates on his health progress uh...