October 25, 2019 Show with Dr. Tony Costa and Chris Date Debating “Eternal Conscious Punishment vs. Conditional Immortality” (Part 3: Audience Q & A)

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this is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 25th day of October 2019 and I am so happy to have part three of a debate that we began a couple of weeks ago this is a debate that began as a two -part debate but we've added a third part because we really had practically zero time for audience participation in our debate this is a debate on eternal conscious punishment versus conditional immortality featuring our guest

Dr. Tony Costa who is an eternal conscious punishment advocate professor of apologetics of Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Toronto Canada and Chris Tate who is a conditional immortality advocate and host of the

Theopologetics podcast and co -editor of Rethinking Hell and a

Consuming Passion and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you men back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the conclusion of our debate

Dr. Tony Costa and Chris Tate a pleasure Chris thank you for having us great well as I told you both before the program today via email

I'd like you to each before we take our listener questions and have you answer them on air

I would like you each to have 10 minutes to recap what we've already dealt with in summary form so those of our listeners who missed the two -day debate on this issue can have more of a full understanding as to what we are addressing here today so if you could

Chris Tate begin with 10 minutes of summary in a recap form of what we've already addressed okay in the first part of our two -day debate dr.

Costa and I debated the question is immortality only given to the saved of course the context of our debate was the debate between the doctrines of eternal torment and conditional immortality despite that context dr.

Costa tried it seems to me to win the first part of our debate on a technicality correctly noting that God and righteous angels are immortal dr.

Costa therefore justified denying the debate thesis but in reality both sides of this debate affirm that God and righteous angels are immortal but while the doctrine of eternal torment says all humankind will universally be made immortal when they are resurrected the doctrine of conditional immortality says the only human beings who will be granted immortality and everlasting life are the same that was what we were debating so given the context of the debate thesis dr.

Costa's tactic was unfortunately misguided in support of the debate thesis in its context

I offered several evidences first I established its historical pedigree by pointing out that several early church fathers including

Clement of Rome Ignatius of Antioch Irenaeus of Lyon Arnobius of Syca and Athanasius the Great affirmed that the only human beings who will be made immortal and live forever are the saved second

I observed that when Adam and Eve's access to the tree of life was revoked it ensured their eventual demise and that the tree of life reappears at the end of the book of Revelation where only the saved have access to its fruit despite this dr.

Costa proposed that the immortality and enduring life of the resurrected wicked in hell will be secured by some other means that are totally unmentioned anywhere in Scripture indeed this was dr.

Costa's overall position and his overall posture toward my case it doesn't matter to dr.

Costa that Roman 2 6 and 7 says immortality has to be sought after it doesn't matter to dr.

Costa that second Timothy 1 10 says immortality is brought to light through the gospel it doesn't matter to dr.

Costa that 1st Corinthians 15 says immortality is for the purpose of being made fit to inherit the kingdom of God and that the human beings who will receive it are the saved it doesn't matter to dr.

Costa that 2nd Corinthians 5 4 says we believers are those whose longing to be immortal will be satisfied one day it doesn't matter to dr.

Costa that John 5 28 and 29 says only the resurrection of the saved is unto life and it doesn't matter to dr.

Costa that Luke 20 35 and 36 says it is the sons of God who will be unable to die anymore at the resurrection you see despite all of these seemingly clear indications that the only human beings who will be raised immortal and live forever are the saved and despite the complete and total lack of text saying the unsaved will be made immortal and live forever dr.

Costa nevertheless believes they will why because he interprets a small handful of biblical texts as indicating that the resurrected wicked will suffer forever in hell from which he infers that they will be raised immortal and live forever just as the saved those texts were the subjects of the second part of our debates let me turn to that now my opening statement in that second part of our debate featured nearly all of the text that dr.

Costa cited in his and more you see what convinced me of conditional immortality more than anything else was that with virtually no exception every single proof text historically cited in support of eternal torment proves upon closer examination to be better support for conditional immortality i began by my opening by demonstrating that this is true of Matthew 25 41 to 46 the phrase eternal fire here in verse 41 i observed is used by Jesus earlier in Matthew 18 8 and 9 where he sets it in parallel with a reference to the old testament valley of the sons of him which jeremiah 7 promises would become the valley of slaughter where the corpses of god slain enemies would be left unburied to be eaten by scavenging beasts and birds the phrase eternal fire is also used in jude 7 to describe the fire that came down from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of sodom and gomorrah and the phrase eternal fire features also in quran's community rule where it inflicts a shameful extinction in the fire of hell's outer darkness so when jesus says in Matthew 25 46 that the wicked will go into eternal punishment we already have a sense of what that punishment is death by eternal fire this should come as no surprise since only the righteous are here said to receive eternal life you see the eternal punishment of the lost must be death forever not immortality and eternal life in hell in revelation 14 9 to 11 the fate of the beast worshippers in apocalyptic vision is described using three symbols drinking god's wrath torment and fire and smoke rising forever all three of these symbols featured later in the book of revelation in chapters 18 and 19 where the harlot mystery babylon drinks god's wrath is tormented in fire and has smoke rise from her forever but john's angel interprets this symbolism for him saying it symbolizes the total destruction of the city represented by the harlot consistency demands that we interpret these symbols the same way in revelation 14 9 to 11 those human beings who do what worshipping the beast symbolizes will be destroyed in revelation 20 10 to 15 conscious entities symbolizing death and hades are thrown into the same lake of fire into which the devil beast false prophets and unsaved are seen thrown of course this symbolizes what god promises in revelation 21 4 hafada tasu esai eti death shall be no more this is also what paul says in first corinthians 15 that death is the last enemy to be destroyed so the lake of fire it symbolizes destruction when it comes to the real life reference symbolized by the horsemen death in 80s and consistency demands we interpret the lake of fire the same way when it comes to the other things thrown into it that's why god and god interpret the lake of fire symbolism in revelation 2014 and 21 8 as symbolizing the second death as the plain straightforward interpretation of the otherwise perplexing imagery the second death is literally the second time the unsaved will die having risen under judgment from their first death in mark 9 48 jesus quotes isaiah 66 24 which explicitly says it is corpses whose worm will not die and whose fire will not be quenched the worm that won't die is like the scavengers that won't be frightened away from carcasses in jeremiah 7 the worm won't die before it's done its job of fully consuming the corpses of god -slaying enemies the fire that won't be quenched is the same thing it is in ezekiel 20 47 to 48 jeremiah 17 27 amos 5 6 and other places it's a fire which because it can't be extinguished that's what quench means will completely burn up its fuel contrary to dr costa's traditional reading of these texts the picture in mark 9 48 and isaiah 66 24 is not of resurrected immortals living forever in hell it's a picture of god's enemies being slain and their bodies completely consumed and daniel 12 2 paints the same picture using the same word translated abhorrence or loathsome in isaiah 66 24 to describe the feeling that the righteous have as they look out on the corpses of god's enemies daniel 12 2 likewise says only the righteous will awaken to everlasting life while the wicked will awake to shame and everlasting contempt they will be slain and remembered forever in contempt second thessalonians 1 9 says the wicked will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction from the presence of the lord and in verse 8 paul mentions flaming fire and inflicting vengeance a combination of terms found only one other place in scripture isaiah 66 15 a scene in which god's enemies are slain this life -ending destruction will be of both body and soul according to jesus in matthew 10 28 in which the greek word translated destroy is an emphatic intensive way of saying kill like slay in cross -examination i asked dr costa what it would mean for the soul to face the same fate as the body if destroy means what it does elsewhere in the synoptic gospels that is slay unfortunately dr costa chose not to answer the question and simply reiterated multiple times that he doesn't believe it means slay here even though it means that everywhere else in the comparable uses in the synoptic gospels i also offer two theological arguments one in each of my opening statements to which dr costa chose never to respond first i observed that the bible teaches that god is perfectly holy and unwilling to tolerate evil forever and yet in dr costa's view god ensures and secures the everlasting existence and expression of evil by immortalizing those who do it in my view however god is so hateful towards sin he so detests sin that he will finally eradicate all evil from the cosmos second i observed that the doctrine of substitutionary atonement means jesus bore the punishment we deserve in our place and those whose punishment he didn't bear must therefore bear it themselves dr costa believes the punishment coming to the lost in hell the the punishment they deserve for their sin is immortality and everlasting life in hell which couldn't be more opposite to the punishment jesus actually bore in our stead which was the cessation and probation of embodied life death but in my view the punishment coming to the lost in hell is death because christ didn't bear death in their place he did bear it in our place praise god which is why we will one day rise and live forever so over the course of our two -day debate i demonstrated that the bible clearly and consistently teaches that the only human beings who will be made immortal are the saved and that the unsaved won't live forever in hell but will instead die there and forever whereas we veered off into largely irrelevant topics in our debate including the fate of fallen angels and whether humans have souls that remain conscious in death my hope is that the theologically savvy listeners of iron sharpens iron radio will have some excellent on -topic questions for us today and i look forward to answering them thanks thank you chris state and now dr tony costa if you could give your 10 minutes a recap of what we previously heard in the debate yes the first part of our debate we debated the question is immortality only given to the saved and i argued uh in that opening statement that the word athanasia athanasia the word that means deathlessness or immortality of course only appears in three parts uh three places of the testament first printing 15 53 to 54 and also in first timothy 6 15 to 16 and uh the other word we discussed was a farce and corruption which appears in romans 2 7 and in second timothy 1 10 now i also argued in my opening statement that the new testament only speaks about christian believers receiving immortality in the resurrection that is clearly uh stated in first printing 15 52 to 53 but my whole point in bringing up the question of the elect angels was to show chris that even chris admitted that yes the angels are immortal even though the bible nowhere says that nowhere does the bible say that the elect angels i'm talking about those angels that got elected for his glory and so forth that these angels are nowhere said to be immortal and so my whole point in bringing that up was to demonstrate that when we speak about the fate of the wicked and the punishment of the wicked and throughout church history theologians have spoken about the soul being immortal and of course what they do not mean by that is they do not mean the platonic sense of which the soul is not only pre -existent to human life but that the soul is immortal in the sense that it does not have a beginning nor does it have an end and my whole point was to demonstrate that just because the word immortality is not used of the soul of humans or of the resurrected bodies of the wicked it does not imply that the wicked will not suffer eternally and so my whole point here was to say that the word immortality that has been conventionally used in theology to refer to the state of the wicked and the destiny of the wicked these words were appropriated by various theologians throughout church history for the past 2 ,000 years or so and it was understood by that they understood very clearly that the bible never used that phrase about the soul or about the resurrected bodies of the wicked now we do know that there will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust that both will be raised in resurrection and the question is what happens to the bodies of the wicked now my friend chris will argue that the bodies of the wicked will will simply be thrown into gehenna and they will be consumed in the fires of gehenna i do not see that in the text of scripture and the overwhelming consensus of the church and i'm not trying to commit the fallacy of argument in that populum here the truth should be determined by a number of votes but the overwhelming conviction of the church has been that the state of the wicked is to experience eternal separation from god and also eternal conscious torment which would imply that the bodies of the resurrected wicked would continue to exist now throughout the debate and even today chris i think has been misrepresenting me in pointing out that i was arguing that the wicked have eternal life and so forth i never said that the wicked have eternal life eternal life i argued in our debate our both debates rather that eternal life is a quality of life that is an explanatory term used throughout scripture to refer to a redeemed relationship with god only the redeemed are said to have eternal life and that is a qualitative kind of life first john says no murderer has he has life in them though which he has he does not have eternal life but that does not mean that does not mean or you can't logically argue from that that the bodies of the wicked do not endure or um or endure in the punishment of of the henna my point was that whenever eternal life is spoken of in the scriptures it refers to a saving redemptive relationship that the believer has with the lord jesus christ and they're said to have eternal life now chris has been referring repeatedly to the old testament particularly to isaiah 66 24 but the problem here is that isaiah is is one of the first prophets to actually address the issue of resurrection in chapter 26 he refers to that the wicked dead that they shall not live and then he refers to god's redeemed people that they shall live and so at this early stage in progressive revelation i think this is very important progressive revelation has to be taken into account here the rule of thumb has always been as the lord jesus christ taught us that we are to interpret the old testament in light of the new testament in light of what has been revealed in the new and so when we come to isaiah 66 um when it speaks about the the bodies of the wicked of those who were slain these in the context of isaiah 66 these are the apostate uh israelites who have defiled themselves and have worshipped other gods and so forth and um and and god goes goes on to destroy these enemies of his but we're also told in isaiah 66 uh 23 that from from new moon to new moon from one sabbath to from sabbath to sabbath all flesh will come towards before me declares the lord now i don't know if takes that literally that the sabbath observance will come back and the new moon observances under the mosaic law whether these things would come back according to hebrews christ has fulfilled these types they've been completely fulfilled in him but then the theme that isaiah gives us here is not that of resurrection because the wicked here are not raised from the dead the wicked here are described as being slain in the battlefield and their bodies are being laid uh unburied which was a great scandal uh a great insult to the body was to leave it unburied and exposed to the elements and and and of course maggots would do the work and and and birds of prey and and and these types of uh birds of prey would come and consume the flesh the problem with isaiah 66 24 is you don't have a resurrection of the wicked there what you have is a battlefield where the flame are strewn about and the righteous those who who um go to worship the lord in in uh jerusalem in sion when they go out from the temple they see these bodies of those who rebelled against god and so if we are to take that passage in isaiah 66 24 um to its fullest literal uh conclusion then you don't have a resurrection of the wicked here in isaiah 66 but what is interesting is that the reference to the unquenchable fire and the the worm that does not die this is the language that was later appropriated by many jews to refer to a conscious punishment in the afterlife and i'm not saying that all jews held this without distinction there was definitely uh there was there was no monolithic judaism uh when it came to this type of question but it is very clear that many jews did hold to this the author of maccabees definitely helped this in the first knock book of judah but we see this language also appropriated in the new testament by the lord jesus christ and so in the new testament it becomes very clear that when jesus speaks about the afterlife and he talks about the punishment of the wicked in matthew 25 uh the where he separates the sheep from the goats it's very clear that in verse 46 of matthew 25 that there are two destinations these will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life and and so both of these states are eternal one is described as eternal life which as i've always said consistently refers to our relationship with god our redemptive relationship and the eternal punishment uh that the wicked experience uh they continue to experience that um we also see in the book revelation that uh that chris has also cited we're studying the same text but we're coming away obviously with different interpretations um and so in revelation 14 we're told there that those who receive the mark of the beast and verse 10 of chapter 14 uh he will be tormented with fire and salt in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb this is the court scene here and the smoke of their torment notice it doesn't say their smoke goes up forever and ever it says the smoke of their torment goes out forever and ever in in in revelation 1920 we're told there that after the battle of armageddon it says that the as a false prophet rather than the beast were thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur in revelation 20 verse 10 it says and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and saw for where the beast and the false prophet were and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever those who are also tormented are described as those who have no rest day or night now if they were um inoculated or consumed or killed off into non -existence they would not they wouldn't have rest they would finally uh rest in the sense that they no longer exist but we're told that they have rest either day nor night unlikely redeemed in revelation who we are told they rest from their labors uh because they have died in the lord and in revelation 20 uh 14 to 15 death in hades are thrown into the lake of fire this is the second death i would disagree with my friend chris on this that the second death is not a second physical death the second death here is final separation from god the separation from god's very presence and revelation 20 verse 15 if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown to the lake of fire and it's interesting in matthew 25 jesus tells the ghost to depart from him into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels and you notice this spatial distancing there depart from me and their destination is the same destination as the devil and his angels and this harmonizes perfectly with revelation 20 that those whose names are not written in the book of life they are thrown into the same lake of fire that satan is thrown into in in agreement with what we read in matthew 25 and so i think it's important for us to realize that the concept of death does not mean cessation of existence and that's what chris seems to be implying it means separation thank you well thank you gentlemen and now we will take uh one question from our listener one of our listeners before the first break and we will give uh each of our debaters when the question is posed or directed to them the person who is being asked the question will have two minutes to answer and the other debater will have one minute to respond to that answer the first question we have is for dr tony costa and this is actually from the wife of an orthodox presbyterian pastor who was deposed from ministry a week ago for having come to embrace uh conditional immortality so ellen in arvada colorado asks i don't know if you're still accepting questions for the costa date debate but this would be my question for dr costa would you agree that christ redeemed us from death and merited our immortality by his death and resurrection if so since you uphold that the risen lost who are now who are in adam will also be made immortal who merited their immortality um okay very good question uh i would answer the question by first pointing out that christ of course comes to redeem his uh elect from from sin from death from satan and so in that redemption christ is the god man he takes our place which tells us the value of of his sacrifice redeem us from this awful place that we call hell and so in in redeeming his people christ then redeemed them to himself they have eternal life which i believe is a present possession it's not something you get on the last day jesus said whoever believes on him who's sending here's my words have eternal life first john 5 13 says i write this to you that you may know that you have eternal life present indicative tense and that this life is in the son of god now in terms of the wicked they don't have fellowship with christ they do not have eternal life they do not have um their sins forgiven and so because of that they will exist eternally separated from the loving presence of god and the gift of eternal life again eternal life is a qualitative one it's a life that we experience redemptively in christ and it is something that only the elect of god experience the wicked of course do not experience that but because the wicked just like the redeemed are both image bearers of god they will continue to exist into eternity away from the presence of god and not in communion with god to experience his love and his grace and peace chris state you have a minute to respond firstly i i know and i'm friends with elaine and her husband and it grieves my heart deeply that the church has made this a topic worth dividing over and i think it grieves god's heart as well so i'm sorry elaine and and your husband for um for what has befallen you for following where the biblical evidence leads um that having been said you'll know the listener will note that dr costa i love him and he should be your friend and a brother he didn't even answer the question okay the question was twofold one did jesus's uh reclaiming work um merit immortality for his people that question i didn't hear answered the second question was if so then who merits the immortality of the risen loss that too dr costa didn't answer and i'll just answer the question the answer to the first question is yes our immortality is is given to us because of what jesus did in our place he died in our place but because he didn't die in place of the non -elect they will instead face that punishment themselves death forever we will be going to our first station break right now and when we return we will have a question for chris date and chris will answer and tony costa will respond to that answer if anybody else would like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com please give us at least your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if this question is about a personal and private matter and please as i said before if you intend to remain anonymous put that in either the subject line or at least in the very first sentence of the question and we will be right back after these messages so don't go away and we look forward to hearing from you and we look forward to having you participate in the program so chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to get world now .com

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forward slash podcast i'm james white of alpha omega ministries and my friend chris arnzen and i are excited to be attending another g3 conference together in atlanta georgia thursday january 16th through saturday january 18th on a theme that is vitally important to all of us worship matters i'll be on the speaking lineup with eric thomas joel beakey paul washer steve lawson phil johnson tom askel vody balcom and the world -renowned preacher teacher and author john macarthur a fascinating new addition to the roster is costy hymn nephew of the notorious false teacher benny hymn costy has repented the word faith heresies of his youth and is now a reformed baptist pastor and cessationist in california come join me and chris arnzen at g3 2020 january 16th through the 18th in atlanta by registering at g3 conference .com

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that's ptl bible rebinding .com welcome back this is part three of a three -part debate that we began a couple of weeks ago between uh dr tony costa of toronto baptist seminary and chris date of theopologetics podcast and co -editor of rethinking hell and a consuming passion dr tony costa is an advocate of eternal conscious punishment and chris date is an advocate of conditional immortality this is our q a session of the debate where we are allowing you the the listener to participate with your own questions and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com and please as always give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question is a personal and private matter and if you are remaining anonymous don't put your real name at all in the email and tell us that you are remaining anonymous uh we have a question from john in bangor maine for chris date and the question is in revelation chapter 14 we read something that was addressed or in the debate earlier but was never addressed in this fashion in verse 11 we read and the smoke of their torment torment goes up forever and ever and this is the part that chris date did not address to my knowledge they have no rest day and night those who worship the beast in his image and whoever receives the mark of the beast if those that are outside of christ are fairly quickly destroyed at the judgment how can they have no rest day or night and that's a great question and it highlights something that i explained in our um in our debate but which dr costa appears to have not remembered given or maybe he just didn't want to uh incorporate it into his uh 10 minute summary this uh today namely i said in our debate that my argument is not that the book of revelations depicts the wicked being annihilated quite the opposite i've explicitly said in our debate and in all of my work for the ministry rethinking hell over the years that the book of revelations depicts eternal torment of the unsaved that is to say this apocalyptic symbolic vision that john receives while he's made unconscious uh while in exile on the island of pat moss a visionary dream like that received by nebuchadnezzar and daniel and the pharaoh and pharaoh's cup baker cup bearer baker and elsewhere it's an apocalyptic symbolic vision in which um a dragon representing the devil a false prophet and a beast each representing institutions and beast worshipers uh representing uh people who do whatever worshiping the beast symbolizes all of these conscious entities as well as death in 80s depicted as conscious entities uh horsemen in revelation 8 i believe it is all of these entities are thrown into this lake of fire and the vision depicts them being tormented forever and ever the question and so no rest day and night makes perfect sense given what's taking place in the imagery the question we have to ask ourselves as careful interpreters of god's word is what does that imagery mean what is the reality behind the imagery and as i pointed out all of this imagery except for the part about rest appears in revelation 18 and 19 where the smoke rises forever from the torment of the mystery babylon she's being tormented in fire uh and she drinks god's wrath um but the angel interprets it as destruction and that's what it means here and dr costa yeah i think chris's interpretation exegesis is very strained there and i don't think he answered the question the question is not the smoke going up forever the smoke of their torment that goes up forever and ever and then they have no rest day or night now if they're if they're killed or they're taken out of existence then they would have rest day and night in fact they would have complete rest because they're no longer conscious but they're described here is not just uh having the smoke of their trauma going up forever but they're described as being restless they have no rest day or night the worshippers of these those who worship this image and who see the mark but notice in revelation 14 and uh verse 13 there is a stark contrast i heard a voice from heaven saying write this blessed are the dead who die in the lord from now on blessed indeed says the spirit that they may rest from their labors for their deeds all of them so notice there's a contrast between the believers the saints uh experienced rest they enter into god's sabbath rest in christ but notice those outside of christ they do not have rest and so um i don't think chris adequately really responded to that uh revelation 17 18 that speaks about the harlot it does not speak of the smoke of her torment it speaks of the smoke of the destruction of the city and so i think that uh the preemie fossi uh reading of this text would lead uh readers just like our caller to understand that this is referring to a conscious suffering the conscious torment thank you and now we have a question again for uh actually this time it's dr tony costa we have let's see we have an anonymous listener who asks why is it that christians who believe that god has never commanded his followers to torture people who are disobedient that they believe at the same time god for eternally for eternity will torture those that are not among his children it seems incomprehensible to me according to the character and nature of god himself right yeah this is in my first debate i believe i discussed sometimes we have in a mode of response uh to this issue of eternal conscious punishment um i don't believe that god is a torture uh is the tyrant who is going to be people forever uh these people suffer um eternal separation from god uh in the lake of fire and away from god's presence and at the same time these people continue to sin because sinners the unregenerate according to romans 1 30 are haters of god and so it's not that god is torturing them but rather they experience the torment of being away from the presence of god uh away from god's goodness love and grace and they suffer if you will a self -perpetuating sin as they continue to hate god that is a sin and as they continue to hate god they they will they continue to rebel against god the sin of unbelief is also a sin and so nowhere does the scripture say that god is the one who is torturing these people uh they go there uh and and people go to go to hell uh at least this has been the historic understanding of christianity that people go to hell because of their sin and and so that suffering and that torment is described as as being away from the presence of god it's it's described as outer darkness it's described as gnashing of teeth it's described as a worm that does not die and these are human words that are trying to capture the sense of alienation from god and that's why in the book revelation in 21 22 it speaks of the tree of life that the saints have access to but notice that those outside of the city are the dogs the idolaters the adulterers those who practice sorcery they remain outside the city and they remain away from uh the presence of god that loving redemptive presence in the new jerusalem in the new heaven and and the new earth so i think we got to get this idea of god as a tyrant out of our heads he is a judge he is just and he is just in all his ways there is no injustice in god's court um and uh and so the idea of god as a tyrant i think is something i think is a mischaracterization of of what the bible says of god and of his justice against them and chris i just want to say two things really quickly uh to follow up on how dr costa answered the previous question number one dr costa unfortunately ignored the first minute of my answer which was an affirmation that the book of revelation depicts eternal torment and therefore their restlessness day and night of course it's not going to be consistent with their annihilation because the imagery doesn't depict their annihilation and secondly he mistakenly claimed that smoke rises from the destruction of the city in revelation in 18 and 19 but that's a mistake that's not true the truth is that the smoke is being said to rise from the harlot and that harlot represents a city um and the thing that uh the only thing that that smoke could rise from is the fiery torment that is said to be inflicted upon her in revelation 18 or say 18 now ask for this question i'll just say two uh one thing um dr costa said that god has never said in the bible to do the tormenting that's true but second peter 2 6 says he reduced the cities of sodom and gomorrah to ashes as an example of what awaits the ungodly uh from now on if you could both of you uh when we have you responding to the answer of a question don't go back to any previous questions uh that really isn't fair as far as uh giving the debaters equal time to address these issues uh we have um let's see we have a question for chris date from gary in southbridge massachusetts who asks the goats all the unsaved along with the beast and the false prophet are sent to share the doom of the devil and his angels matthew 25 verse 41 revelation 2010 isn't this period of suffering for both the demonic and humankind equal in their duration of existence and there there's a typo here and will the annihilated i don't i don't know what that point was supposed to be it seems like he left the word out uh but anyway if you could address that sure yeah i agree that the fate of the um demonic beings is the same as the fate of the unsaved human beings the question is what is that fate and dr costa and the person who's asking this question just sort of assume that what's depicted in the imagery of the book of revelation is to be taken straightforward and literally um but this is the book of the bible where that's the least uh appropriate thing to do as traditionalist gk beal admits this in this book uh at least between chapters four and twenty two and a half the the part of the book that records john's vision the interpretive principle should be to take what takes place in the imagery as symbolic until evidence requires otherwise and the question is what does the symbol of these demonic beings and unsaved people and death and hades being thrown into a lake of fire and tormented forever what does that symbolism mean well i've given a number of reasons in my debate and today for why we should take that imagery as meaning uh destruction death and hades are thrown into that lake of fire uh which communicates the destruction of death and hades the lake of fire is interpreted by john and god as symbolizing the second time people will die um eternal fire in matthew 25 41 is a phrase that jesus had used earlier in matthew 18 89 where he said it in parallel to gehenna the old testament valley of sons of the valley of the sons of hinnom which jeremiah 7 says would become the valley of slaughter where the corpses of god slain enemies would be left unburied and consumed so and jude jude uses the phrase eternal fire to refer to the fire that came down from heaven and destroyed sodom and gomorrah all of every single jot and tittle of these passages in revelation and matthew 25 land the passages squarely in the camp of conditional immortality and they make very poor support for the doctrine of eternal torment and dr tony costa yes i think that again the straightforward reading of matthew 25 46 is very clear that we have two groups of people here depicted by the sheep and the goats the believers go into eternal life and the unbelievers go into eternal punishment to say that one is temporary and the other one is is is eternal uh is to be inconsistent in exegesis the same adjective i only know it's used to both describe the fate of the of the blessed and the fate of the wicked and um and so eternal life is not just the qualitative life the redeemed have with god but it is a life that continues forever and the the punishment that the goats face is also eternal and that's why the language used in revelation 14 and incidentally jakey bill uh points out and i'm quoting it still remains true that revelation 14 11 and 20 10 to 15 are the achilles heel of the annihilationist perspective quote quote and that's because it speaks about this conscious torment it speaks about not just conscious torment but it's something that goes on day and night forever and there is no rest um now if chris's position is true conditioning mortality is true then um there is no torment there is uh rest um and the fire is quenched after it's done its work and the worm uh finally uh ceases to exist because it's devoured everything but that's not what the scripture says the scripture continually says the worm does not die the fire is not quenched that is not a fire that uh quenches things excuse me that consumes things and then it's put out that's not what we see in scripture and therefore it's no surprise that for the majority of the church's history she has always understood these terms referred to eternal conscious punishment okay folks well we are going now to our midway part of the program the midway break and that involves a longer than normal break because grace life radio requires of us a longer break than normal due to the fact that they have to localize iron radio to lake city florida uh to uh to submit to fcc regulations so use this time wisely uh during this longer than normal break use this time to write down questions for our debaters and you can also use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers because please folks remember patronizing our advertisers is a huge way that you will help iron sharpens iron radio to remain on the air because that's going to further ensure they will keep advertising with us and continue to renew their contracts and so on because we require the advertising dollars from our sponsors to exist so please write down as much of the information provided by our advertisers as possible and try to patronize them as often as you can but remember uh also send in questions to both chris state and tony costa to chris arnson at gmail .com

chris arnson at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and please if you are remaining anonymous don't even put your name in the content of the email and tell us that you're purposely remaining anonymous don't go away we'll be right back i'm stephan lindblad assistant professor of systematic theology at irbs theological seminary in mansfield texas i accepted this call to teach at the seminary because i'm firmly convinced that the people of god in the churches of our lord jesus christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of holy scripture i'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of jesus christ our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths indeed future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of god's people if you want to learn more about our program visit us online at irbs seminary .org

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that's batterydepot .com i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary i'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where i've been invited to speak and have grown to love hope reform baptist church in quorum long island new york pastored by rich janson and chris vermcdowell it's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of god like hope reform baptist church in quorum who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim christ jesus the king and his doctrines of sovereign grace in suffolk county long island and beyond i hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as i have for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reform li .net

that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of quorum long island new york that you heard about them from tony costa on iron sharpens iron when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm pastor nate pickowitz of harvest bible church in gilminton ironworks new hampshire and the nasb is my bible of choice i am pastor rich chanson of hope reform baptist church in quorum new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i am pastor sule prince of oakwood wesleyan church in toronto ontario canada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor john samson of king's church in peoria arizona and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck volo of new life community church in kingsville maryland and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor steve herford of eastport baptist church in jacksonville florida and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor roy owens jr of the church and friendship in hockley texas and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

that's nasbible .com to place your order got to tell you for my money chris arnson's radio program is just the best i think that's what it's called this is todd friel of wretched radio and tv with phil johnson of grace to you inviting everybody to come to the g3 conference which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country and it is it's a great conference i love it and chris arnson was there last year he's been there i think every year it's great to see him there you and i actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place which is a highlight tons of stuff going on tons of great speakers and no matter where you are in the building you will hear chris arnson's laugh and that's worth the price of admission alone if you would like to join phil me chris and a cavalcade of great preachers so be a cavalcade of great preachers and meet g3 conference .com

g3 conference .com and now there's even more exciting news john macarthur himself is now also on the lineup at the g3 conference thursday january 16th through saturday january 18th 2020 go to g3 conference .com

g3 conference .com see you there i'm dr gary kimbrough patch of bethlehem baptist church in laurel mississippi god tells us in james 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction in the providence of god three years ago i discovered a poor small church outside lusaka zambia in a township called kabanana who are taking care of 24 orphans i found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding what was i to do could i just say god bless you and walk away the situation of the children set heavily upon me as i was praying concerning this need it came to me i trust from the lord to tell the orphans plight to a broader audience the entire need for their clothing food education and some medical services is 73 dollars per month per child if just 50 of us would give 35 a month we could meet the need bethlehem baptist church will pay the fee to get the funds there so if you give a dollar a dollar we'll get to the orphans in this season of hope and giving will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans please send your gift of any amount to bethlehem baptist church 838 reed road laurel mississippi 39443 or donate through our website bbclaurel .com

again the address is bethlehem baptist church 838 reed road laurel mississippi 39443 or bbclaurel .com

thank you chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years his name is dan buttafuoco dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind dan cares about people and is a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible ravi zacharias wrote the foreword dan also has a master's degree in theology dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in new york his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you call dan consultations are free there is no fee unless you win dan buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for dan's contact information at chris arnzen at gmail .com

that's chris arnzen at gmail .com every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all the above for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org

that's liyfc .org i'm so grateful to our sovereign god that while manning an exhibitor's booth for iron sharpens iron a major bible conference i providentially met pastor andrew smith of christ reformed community church just south of jacksonville florida right off i -95 in st john's county andrew is certainly the kind of pastor that is a perfect match for my radio show and has already proven to be an ideal guest christ reformed community church shares my conviction that god is both creator and sustainer of the universe he rules and reigns providentially over our lives he directs not only the historical events of the world but also the personal events of individuals i agree with christ reformed community church that the very purpose of the church is to make disciples that we are tasked with the responsibility to evangelize locally nationally and globally and that we are to equip the saints for the work of service unlike the man -centered seeker sensitive movement they do not gauge the success of biblical discipleship by how many people are in a church but by the faithful ministry of god's word and gospel for more details on christ reformed community church visit christ reformed cc .com

that's christ reformed cc .com or call 904 -955 -9881 that's 904 -955 -9881 tell pastor andrew that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio i'm pastor andrew smith and i'd like to urge you to consider joining christ reformed community church of st john's florida in financially supporting iron sharpens iron radio charles headings burgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio and don't forget folks every time you purchase a book from solid -ground -books .com

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for helping iron sharpens iron radio remain on the air before we return to our debate and once again this is part three of a debate that we began a couple of weeks ago between dr tony costa who is an advocate of eternal conscious punishment and chris date who is an advocate of conditional immortality this is the third part where we are getting you the listener involved in the discussion with your own questions before we return to that question and answer session with our audience we just have a couple of very important announcements to make regarding upcoming events that we hope you join me in attending the first one's coming up next week i'm going to be packing up my bags and heading down to the or should i say heading up to the place of my birth long island new york to hope perform baptist church in quorum long island new york for their doctrines of grace conference being sponsored and hosted by long island spurgeon fellowship area pastors who are thoroughgoing calvinists and passionate lovers of the doctrines of sovereign grace are going to be speaking at this conference november 1st and november 2nd it's friday and saturday and the themes include god's sovereignty total depravity unconditional election limited atonement perseverance of the saints is calvinism biblical and a q and a roundtable with the panel of speakers in the audience if you would like to join me there next weekend friday and saturday november 1st and 2nd at hope reform baptist church of quorum long island new york you can get more details at reformed rookie .com

reformed rookie r -o -o -k -i -e dot com you can also go to the hope baptist church website for more details on directions at hope reformed li .net

hope reformed li .net and you can call area code 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 then in december i'm going to be packing up my bags again and heading to new york city which in my opinion is the best place on the planet earth to experience the christmas season or at least part of it and this conference in manhattan is going to be held during the heart of the christmas season on december 19th and 20th that is a thursday and friday and this is the foundations conference a conference of sermon audio .com

this is only for men in ministry leadership so if you are in that category and you would like to join me there go to the foundations conference .com

the foundations conference .com the speakers include dr stephen j lawson paul washer reverend jeff thomas reverend armand tamasi and richard colwell jr and andrew quigley and once again go to the foundations conference .com

the foundations conference .com for more details then january january thursday thursday january 16th through saturday january 18th i will once again be manning an exhibitor's booth at the g3 conference and i hope that if you are attending that you come by and visit with me at the iron sharpens iron exhibitor's booth i always love being at the g3 conference where over 5 000 people are milling around and i meet so many people not only that love my show and encourage me enormously but also a new people new people who have never listened to the program before who are introduced to it by me through my flyers that i hand out and so i hope to see you there thursday through saturday january 16th through the 18th at the georgia international convention center in college park georgia which is a suburb of atlanta georgia the theme this january is worship matters and they have as always an absolutely phenomenal lineup of speakers once again we have stephen j lawson at this event uh...

we have uh... dr james are white of alpha omega ministries long -time friend of mine another longtime friend of mine uh...

phil johnson the executive director of john macarthur's ministry grace to you in fact phil johnson has the dubious reputation of being the most interviewed guest out of anybody that i've ever interviewed here on iron sharpens iron radio my friend todd freal of wretched tv and radio is going to be speaking there the doctor tom askew the executive director of the founders ministries the calvinistic ministry in the southern baptist convention another long -time friend of mine uh...

and we have dr stephen j nichols the president of reformation bible college the college founded by the late rc sproul and ligonier ministries and on top of all that the latest addition to the lineup is john macarthur himself uh...

i would urge you if you have a business or a parachurch organization that you want to promote to the body of christ especially to people in large numbers not only register to attend at the g3 conference of i would urge you to register for an exhibitor's booth just like i will be manning for the fourth year in a row and i always have an exquisite a superb phenomenal mind -blowing time when i'm at the g3 conference that proves to be very fruit -bearing and beneficial to iron trump and zion radio uh...

and as i have been saying i think that they're going to have probably a thousand more people than they normally have at the g3 conference because of the addition of dr john macarthur to the roster uh...

they normally have as i said over five thousand people and i bet you they're going to have over six thousand people that's just an educated guess due to his popularity globally if you want to join me there at the g3 conference thursday through saturday january sixteenth through the eighteenth go to g3 conference dot com g3 conference dot com last but not least if you love my show you don't want to disappear from the airways please i'm urging you go to iron trump and zion radio dot com click support then click click to donate now you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that you can also send in a check the old -fashioned way via snail mail to the address that appears on the screen when you go to iron trump and zion radio dot com and click support never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church in order to give to iron trump and zion radio never do that never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to iron trump and zion radio never do that either those two things are commands of god providing for your own church and for your own family providing for iron trump and zion radio may not be a command of god but if you love this show and you're financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands you have extra money for trivial things for attending sporting events and movies and the live theater and refreshments well please use some of that money if you love this show to help us remain on the air and please go to iron trump and zion radio dot com click support then click click to donate now today please donate as generously as you can and as frequently as you can we are in urgent need of your donations to make it through the month of november next month we thank all of you who helped us survive through october but november it looks pretty scary so please help us remain on the air go to iron trump and zion radio dot com click support then click click to donate now if you are not a member of a local bible believing church you're not even prayerfully looking for one you are living in rebellion against god please rectify that situation i have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world i can help you find a church if you need assistance so please send me an email to chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com and now we are back with the question and answer session of our three -day debate this is the third day of our three -day debate between dr tony costa an advocate of eternal conscious punishment and chris date an advocate of conditional immortality and if you want to join us on the air with a question of your own for either or both of these men our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

chris arnson at gmail .com and i'm sorry guys can either of you tell me who was the last one that received the question i think i would i think i went first last chris you received the last question i believe so but i could be wrong about that i think you're right chris okay all righty uh this is a question for dr tony costa and in fact this same listener greg has a question for each of you and greg if you could if you're still listening provide us with your city and state and perhaps country of residence because all we know about you is that your name is greg uh okay he asks i'd like to ask dr costa why he thinks the final message to john after the vision itself contained in revelation 22 verses 14 through 15 part one uh says the wicked will continue outside the city actually it says outside are presently the liars murderers are the wicked continuing to commit murderers in hell who are they murdering a very good question um the idea of of the wicked being in hell uh they're there obviously because of their sin and the list of sins is set out there whether it's idolatry or those who lie and adulterers and so forth and so on but the point that i made earlier uh in one of the questions that was asked was that people in hell continue to sin there's an ongoing sinning that goes on there there's a there's a hatred for god that continues and and that's why also in revelation uh at the end there it says let him who is holy continue to be holy let him who is impure continue to be impure and so forth and so on and so sinners don't cease to exist uh excuse me sinners don't cease to sin uh when they physically die sinners continue to sin just as the redeemed continue to love and worship god through all eternity we're doing that in a finite scale now but in eternity we will be worshiping god and and loving him and honoring him and so forth um the wicked similarly continue in their sin the only difference is of course that they're kept in check it's not that god takes them out or stuffs them out of existence but they're outside of the city uh and notice the fact that they're outside of the city uh doesn't speak of a conditioning mortality here it doesn't say that they've been destroyed what point is there mentioned that they're outside the city um and and so the idea i think that is that is being told there in in john in book revelation is that the wicked will be held in check um and and this is a very ancient idea in the ancient myths for example not that i'm saying the bible is myth but in the ancient greek myths the the gods kept the titans uh in check by imprisoning them in torturous in in the abyss um and so the idea here is that the sovereign god of the universe uh will balance uh things out in the end uh there'll be new heaven and new earth the curse will be gone uh but outside of that holy city notice again the spatial emphasis they're away from the uh presence of god in the new jerusalem in the heaven than you are and chris day first i just want to really quickly set the record straight as i've explicitly said in this debate and elsewhere i believe the punishment of the wicked will be eternal not temporary i've also explicitly said that i don't think death means a cessation of existence and i'm just sort of hoping that by setting the record straight uh it will help prevent me from being mischaracterized any longer uh after this specific question i'll just point out that beginning in verse 6 of revelation 22 we are no longer in the vision we have now exited the vision and now we're reading the close of john's letter what took place after john is sort of awakened from his uh from his visionary experience and so when it talks about let him who continues spinning let the evil doer still do evil out etc uh he's talking about people in his day um because this is an opportunity he's giving his contemporaries everybody between him and us and into the future until christ returns he's giving them an urgent message repent so that when he returns you will be able to enter into life this isn't depicting the wicked continuing to exist outside of the gates at all and uh chris state can i ask a clarifying question because you may have left some of our listeners scratching their heads i i'm pretty certain in fact i i am certain that what what you just meant when you were clarifying about the eternal eternality of punishment you believe that the punishment is eternal but not the punishing that's one way to put it that's right okay just wanted to make sure that our listeners understood that sure uh and now uh we have the same listener greg who asks dr uh i'm sorry who asks chris date a question uh i'd like to ask chris date why he thinks jesus says in matthew chapter 10 verse 28 and he is citing from part one of the debate uh where you uh apparently said this god will destroy both body and soul in hell actually it says god can destroy yeah sure the reason why i say will is because it's clear that this what is what god will in fact do and it's clear for a couple of reasons firstly in the lucan parallel that the parallel and luke uh the statement is don't fear god who can kill or fear god who can destroy both body and soul and gehenna it said uh fear god who will you know don't fear men who can do no more after they kill you fear god who will throw you into gehenna or whatever um they're actually i think the word is can as well but the thing is he's talking about gehenna um and and there are myriad passages in the new testament which indicate that uh gehenna is a reference to the place where the wicked will finally be uh punished so we we have no reason for thinking that he's only saying god can do this in gehenna but actually won't and secondly it would be absurd to think that what he's saying is fear god who can do x y or z but actually won't do that he might as well say rather fear god who can turn you into a chicken um it's absurd it's very clear that in context that what god is saying is don't fear men because in my view the the disciples were presently at that time um facing real death the real threat of death and he's saying jesus is don't fear them because they can only kill your body they can't kill the soul rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell which is i've already explained is what the new testament says he will do um and lastly i'll just add one other thing i'm aware of no um uh orthodox uh learned scholarly or even less than scholarly theologian or commentator uh who has ever argued that we are supposed to take the can here in uh matthew 10 28 as anything other than he will do that um if somebody can show me an orthodox learned scholar or or even somebody who's less than scholarly but still orthodox and and very effective uh who argues that this isn't what god will in fact do in gehenna um i'd be open to hearing that but as far as i'm aware uh no such commentator exists and dr tony costa if you could respond to yes i would i would agree i would agree with chris that it's not that god can do it but he won't uh but that he actually will do it and so i think that uh i think that uh we're both on good ground to assume that um and of course in matthew 10 28 it's a very interesting passage that they're not the disciples are told not to fill the fear those who can kill the body they cannot kill the soul um and so here again we we note that man cannot kill the soul and and this is why i hold to one of the reasons i hope to a dualist view that humans are both spiritual and material but fear him who can destroy both body uh soul and body in in gehenna and of course that would take place at the resurrection um also in in luke 12 verse 5 uh the lord jesus says that um he says i will tell you i do not fear those who kill the body but after that have nothing more that they can do i will warn you whom to fear fear him who after he has killed has authority to cast into gehenna or into hell and so uh the the idea of destruction here again apollumi uh which translates here as destruction again all lexical um all lexical works maintain that that word means to to destroy uh it means to kill to slay um but in none of these instances does it imply uh that the person is is just taken out of existence i don't know how else to put that uh in terms of where chris stands um but i think it's very clear that destruction here ultimately is separation from god in gehenna and therefore the wicked need to have a resurrected body so that god can judge them both as a unit that is a a spiritual physical unit okay and uh by the way this is a reminder to me to announce that anybody who sent in a first time question uh both before now and right up to the end of the program if you're a first time questioner you will receive a free new american standard bible so please send me your email i'm sorry send me your full mailing address so i can have cvbbs .com

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and also the publishers of the new american standard bible we have a first time questioner uh skyler in alberta canada in lacombe alberta canada who has a question for dr costa how are the wicked going to remain in existence when they are sent away from the very substance of their existence for in him we live and move and have our being acts chapter 17 verses 28 doesn't the separation from god necessitate the cessation of their life uh the short answer that is no it does not uh the the um the absence from god's saving redemptive presence does not mean the cessation of their existence uh we we talked in our first debate uh we talked about uh how the angels are immortal even though they're never said to be immortal the word at the messiah does not never refers to angels but the fact that the wicked exist they exist because god permits them to now can god uh take out uh a human being out of existence of course he can god can do that uh with with humans he can do that with angels and do that with satan and so forth but the scripture does not say that uh in him we live and move and have our being uh why are the angels immortal for example uh not because they're inherently immortal but because god uh sustains them and god sustains humans god sustains the wicked every day he he he lets them breathe his air he lets them drink his water he lets them live he lets that heart beat in their chest and so there's nothing in scripture that seems to indicate that um people who are sent away from the presence of god into hell or to vienna that uh they simply cease cease to be um they exist because they are image bearers of god they exist because god sustains them and therefore um uh the very the very fact that that even unbelievers exist even today is all due to god's grace and and god's uh sustaining power and so uh there's nothing in scripture that seems to suggest when it talks about uh they'll be destroyed um and be sent away from the presence of god and so forth we need to understand that god's saving presence is not there in vienna his presence is everywhere obviously god is omnipresent but his saving presence his his his relationship with his people is not something that is experienced in vienna rather they experience uh eternal judgment and uh chris state uh firstly the words apanacea and apartheid don't need to be used in order to say someone is immortal angels are said to be incapable of dying in luke 20 in the very same breath in which the sons of god the human beings are said to be unable to die specifically saved human beings so it's just simply untrue that the bible never says the righteous angels are immortal um but as for the listener's question um i i would agree with dr costa actually that um it would be a mistake to read language in scripture about the wicked being cast out of god's presence as necessitating that god ceases to uh sustain their existence i think that's a mistake however i will say this raises the question that i've raised in my debate in which uh for understandable reasons probably given time constraints dr costa has not responded to namely that in my view god so detests sin that he will absolutely eradicate it from the entirety of his cosmos but on dr costa's view this god who sustains the existence of all of his creation will sustain the existence of sin and of sinners forever and therefore ensure that sin goes on forever all right thank you uh schuyler and keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and spreading the word in alberta canada and beyond uh we have susan margaret in dalphin county pennsylvania who asks a question for both of you uh she first asked chris date how can your view meet the understanding of god being just when the sweet old lady next door who is a jehovah's witness is basically getting the same punishment as adolf hitler or charles manson or one of the most heinous monsters that has ever lived okay good question firstly i'll point out that the exact same problem faces the traditional view of eternal torment because no matter how much how much different one person's suffering is from another if that suffering goes on for eternity billions and trillions and quadrillions and sextillions of years for all eternity any difference between those two degrees of intensity of suffering fade into nothing um so the same exact uh objection could be leveled at the traditional view but as for my view i don't think that there's any reason to think that the only way to account for degrees of punishment is by um having it uh well i don't have to put it this way i don't think it's at all uh in in commensurate with my view and the reason is because there are a couple of different ways at least that difference differences of degrees of punishment can play out in the final destruction of the wicked one of them um is seen in our own justice system in the various ways we capitally punish people um this the same exact punishment is inflicted upon criminals by the electric chair by the noose by the firing squad and even by lethal injection the same exact punishment namely death and yet the experience of the wicked as they're being put to death by each of those different means of capital punishment varies so we can easily say that yeah sure perhaps a lady down the street will experience a relatively painless destruction uh and whereas hitler will experience an extremely painful violent shameful destruction um but both of them will never ever live again which is the testimony of scripture um that would account for the difference of degree another way to account for differences of degrees has to do with the degree to which people are remembered in contempt after they are destroyed um we 21st century modern westerners like to pretend we don't care how we're remembered after we're gone but the reality is we do and all more so biblical peoples they care deeply how they would be remembered after they were gone and if one person is hardly remembered at all and another person is remembered with the utmost contempt for eternity that also accounts for degrees of punishment and dr tony costa yeah i think on the conditionally mortality uh position i think the caller does have a point there because if in the end uh the adolf hitler and and the little those witness lady on the day judgment are raised from the dead and and take into account why they reject the gospel and so forth and hitler suffers a tremendous amount of punishment um and and the the little lady uh receives the lesser amount of punishment in the end they're both going to die they're both going to be and and therefore uh i i i think that the degrees of punishment eventually are simply canceled out now i don't think that in the eternal conscious punishment as chris alleges i don't think it's the same thing i think that someone who a hitler definitely uh because of his greater sin that he's committed he's guilty on a grander scale just like the cities of bethsaida and capernum were uh were uh it will be more tolerable for sodom and gomorrah than for uh burnham and bethsaida and so forth but this is a punishment that that um they experience consciously it doesn't end and therefore uh someone's having a perpetual toothache obviously is not on the same boat with someone who suffers perpetual uh cancer a cancer -ridden body and so i think at the end of the day it all has to do with the question of sin and how heinous and is um some people as i mentioned earlier uh take a very emotional response to this why would a loving god do this and so forth i think most of the time we underestimate just how heinous and as we don't understand the gravity of what's in this towards the holy god of scripture well uh chris date has proven to be a prophet because uh susan margaret did ask the same question and you already answered it uh tony okay so uh thank you for that and thank you susan margaret in dauphin county for the question uh we have a question for chris date uh that we will ask right before we go to our final break and we'll have him answer it and we'll have tony costa respond to his answer when we return from the break so this gives you a little bit of time to think about this chris we have christian in suffolk county long island new york who asks what is the difference between your view and annihilationism and how long will the period of suffering be for those that you believe will eventually be annihilated and we'll have you answer that when we come back from the break and if anybody else wants to join us on the air our question our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com and keep in mind we are rapidly running out of time so if you have a question you want to ask that would do it quickly or forever hold your peace we'll be right back god willing after these messages from our sponsors so don't go away when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at the toronto baptist seminary and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jeff downs of knox reform presbyterian church in mechanicsville virginia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor mark ramaldi of grace reform baptist church of long island in merrick new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor scott passolo of the master's church of bux county pennsylvania and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor kevin venue of the bible church for washington new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor andrew smith of christ reformed community church in saint augustine florida and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor clint lighter of highway m chapel sedalia missouri and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

that's nasbible .com to place your order hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support that's ironsharpensironradio .com chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years his name is dan buttafuoco dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind dan cares about people and is a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible ravi zacharias wrote the foreword dan also has a master's degree in theology dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for one million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in new york his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you call dan consultations are free there is no fee unless you win dan buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for dan's contact information at chris arnzen at gmail .com

that's chris arnzen at gmail .com james white of alpha omega ministries and the dividing line webcast here although god has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor rich jensen and the brethren at hope reform baptist church now located at their new beautiful facilities in corham long island new york i've had the privilege of opening god's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my new york debates i do not hesitate to highly recommend hope reform baptist church of corham long island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in christ i also want to congratulate hope reform baptist church of corham for the recent appointment of pastor rich jensen's co -elder pastor christopher mcdowell for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reform li .net

that's hope reform li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of corham long island that you heard about them from james white on iron sharpens iron radio iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving south central pennsylvania solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering understanding and exceeding your expectations they deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath remodeling decks porches windows and doors roof and siding and more for a clear detailed professional estimate call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time call solid rock remodeling at 717 -697 -1981 717 -697 -1981 or visit solid rock remodeling .com

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that's ptl bible rebinding .com linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

that's linbrookbaptist .org and don't forget folks when we go off the air here on iron trip and zion radio please continue listening to firstloveradio .org