October 25, 2019 Show with Dr. Tony Costa and Chris Date Debating “Eternal Conscious Punishment vs. Conditional Immortality” (Part 3: Audience Q & A)

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on

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We're listening to you live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio.

Wishing you all a happy Friday on this 25th day of October 2019 and

I am so happy to have part three of a debate that we began

a couple of weeks ago, this is a Debate that began as a two -part debate, but we've added a third part

because we really had Practically zero time for audience

participation in our debate.

This is a debate on eternal conscious punishment versus Conditional

immortality featuring our guest dr. Tony Costa who is an eternal

conscious punishment advocate Professor of apologetics of Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary

in Toronto, Canada and Chris date who is a conditional immortality advocate

and host of the Theo apologetics podcast and co -editor of rethinking

hell and a consuming passion and It's my honor and privilege to

welcome you men back to iron sharpens iron radio for the conclusion of our debate.

The dr. Tony Costa and Chris date

great well as I.

Told you both before the program today via email.

I'd like you to each before we take our listener questions and have you answer them

on air I would like you each to have 10 minutes to Recap what we've

already dealt with in summary form.

So those of our listeners who missed the two -day debate on this issue can have more of a

full Understanding as to what we are addressing here today.

So if you could Chris dates begin with ten minutes of summary in a

recap form of what we've already addressed the.

Context of our debate was the debate between the doctrines of eternal torment and conditional immortality.

Despite that context dr. Costa tried it seems to me to win the first part of our debate on a technicality

Correctly noting that God and righteous angels are immortal.

Dr. Costa therefore felt justified denying the debate thesis.

But in reality both sides of this debate affirmed that God and righteous angels are immortal.

But while the doctrine of eternal torment says all humankind will universally be made immortal when they are resurrected.

The doctrine of conditional immortality says the only human beings who will be granted immortality and everlasting life

are the same.

That was what we were debating.

So given the context of the debate thesis, dr Costas tactic was unfortunately misguided in support of

the debate thesis in its context.

I offered several evidences.

First I established this historical pedigree by pointing out that several early church fathers including Clement of Rome Ignatius

of Antioch Here in AS of Leon, Arnobius of Syca and Athanasius the Great Affirmed that the only human beings who will be

made immortal and live forever are the saved.

Second I observed that when Adam and Eve's access to the tree of life was revoked it ensured their eventual demise and

that the tree Of life reappears at the end of the book of Revelation where only the saved have access to its fruit.

Despite this dr Costa proposed that the immortality and enduring life of the resurrected wicked in

hell will be secured by some other means.

That are totally unmentioned anywhere in Scripture.

Indeed, this was dr. Costa's overall position and his overall posture toward my case.

It doesn't matter to dr Costa that Romans 2 6 & 7 says immortality.

Timothy 1 10 says immortality is brought to light through the gospel.

It doesn't matter to dr Costa that 1st Corinthians 15 says immortality is for the purpose of being made fit to inherit the

kingdom of God and that the human Beings who will receive it are beings.

5 4 says we believers are those whose longing to be immortal will be satisfied one day.

It doesn't matter to dr Costa that John 5 28 and 29 says only the resurrection of the saved is untrue life.

And it doesn't matter to dr Costa that Luke 20 35 and 36 All of

these seemingly clear Indications that the only human beings who

will be raised immortal and live forever.

Complete and total lack of text saying the unsaved will be made immortal and live forever.

Dr. Costa nevertheless believes they will.

Why?

Because he interprets a small handful of biblical texts as indicating that the resurrected wicked will suffer forever in hell

from which he infers That they will be raised immortal and live

forever.

Turn to that now.

My opening statement in that second part of our debate featured nearly all of the text that dr Costa cited in his and more.

You see what convinced me of conditional immortality more than anything else was that with virtually no exception every single

proof text Historically cited in support of eternal torment proves a con closer examination to be better

support for conditional immortality.

I began by my opening by demonstrating that this is true of Matthew 25 41 of 46.

The phrase eternal fire here in verse 41 I observed is used by Jesus earlier in Matthew 18

89 where he sets it in parallel with Hannah a Reference to the Old Testament Valley of the sons of Hinnom.

Which Jeremiah 7 promises would become the valley of slaughter where the corpses of God's slain enemies would be

left unburied to be eaten by scavenging beasts and birds.

The phrase eternal fire is also used in Jews Adam and

Gomorrah and the phrase eternal fire features also in Qumran's community rule.

He's

25 46 that the wicked will go into eternal punishment.

We already have a sense of what that punishment is 9

to

11 the patient in

chapters

18 and 19 where the harlot mystery Babylon drinks God's wrath is tormented in fire and has smoke

rise from her forever.

But John's angel interprets this symbolism for him saying it symbolize.

He demands that we interpret these symbols the same way in Revelation 14 9 to 11 those human beings who do what

worshiping the beast? symbolizes will be destroyed in Revelation 20 10 to 15 conscious

entities symbolizing death and Hades

off at the

unsavers

father thought

as God

and God in

218 as Symbolizing the second

being risen

under judgment

from

carcasses.

In

Jeremiah 7 the worm

won't die

in other places.

It's a fire which

because it

is not of resurrected immortals living

in word

translated abhorrence or loathsome.

And I look out on the corpses of God's enemies

Daniel 12 to likewise blame

Jesus in Matthew 10 28 in

which the Greek word translated destroy is

an emphatic would mean for not the

Gospels that is slay.

Not to answer the question and simply reiterated multiple times that he doesn't believe it means

slay here even verbal uses.

And that's not the Gospels.

I also offer two theological arguments one in each of my opening statements to respond

fully and unwilling to tolerate evil forever and Yet

in dr. Costas view God ensures and secures the everlasting existence and

expression of evil by Immortalizing.

In my view however our

place

there must therefore

bear it themselves.

I mean to the lost in hell that's the punishment they deserve for their sin is Immortality and everlasting life

in hell, which couldn't be

more opposite

of embodied life

of our two -day debate I demonstrated the only human beings who will be

made immortal.

My hope is

that the

theologically savvy listeners of iron sharpens iron radio will have some excellent on -topic questions for us today.

And I look forward to answering them.

Thanks.

Thank you Chris.

State and now a dr.

Tony Costa if you could give your 10 minutes a recap of what we previously heard in the debate.

Yeah,

the

first

part

was

to

demonstrate.

There's

no

more.

Well,

thank

you

gentlemen,

and now

we

will

take.

One question from our listener.

One of our listeners before the first break and we will give each of

our debaters.

When the question is posed or directed to them the person who is being asked the question will have

two minutes to answer and The other debater will have one minute to respond to

that answer.

The first question we have is for dr. Tony Costa.

And.

This is actually From the wife of an Orthodox Presbyterian pastor

who was deposed from ministry a week ago for having come to embrace

conditional immortality.

So Ellen in Arvada, Colorado Asks, I don't know if

you're still accepting questions for the Costa date debate, but this would be my question for dr Costa would

you agree that Christ? Redeemed us from death and merited our

immortality by his death and resurrection if So since you uphold that the risen

lost who are now Who are in Adam will also be made immortal who merited

their immortality?

Okay, very good question.

With answer

the man he takes the value

of redeem

us in redeeming his people Christ and

Redeemed them to himself.

They have eternal life, which I believe is a present possession.

It's not something you get Jesus said whoever Believes on him who's

sending here's my words have eternal life first on 513.

There's a right to this to you that you may know that you have and that this life is

in the Son of God.

Now in terms of the

wicked.

Oh because of that they will

it really separated the

gift of eternal life again.

It's a life that we experience

Redemptively only the

elect of God the

redeemed

Christ

8.

You have a minute to respond.

Firstly I I know and I'm friends with Elin and her husband and it grieves in my heart deeply

that I think it grieves God's Heart as well.

So I'm sorry Elin and and and your husband for for what has befallen you for following where the biblical

evidence leads.

That having been said you'll know the listeners will note that dr. Costa.

I love him.

He should be your friend and a brother.

He didn't even answer the question.

Okay, the question was twofold one.

Did it Jesus's?

Recalling work.

Merit immortality for his people that question.

I didn't hear answer.

The second question was then who merits the immortality of the written loss

that to dr Costa didn't answer and I'll just answer the question.

The answer the first question is yes.

Our immortality is is given to us because of what Jesus did in our place.

He died in our place, but because he didn't die in place of the not elect.

We will be going to our first station break right now and when we return we will have a

question for Chris date and Chris will answer and Tony Costa will respond to that

answer.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA it only remain anonymous if this question is about a personal and private matter and Please

as I said before if you intend to remain anonymous put that in either the subject line or at

least in the very first sentence of the question and we will be right back after these messages, so don't

go away and we look forward to hearing from you and.

We look forward to having you participate in the program.

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Welcome back.

This is part three of a three -part debate that we began a couple of weeks ago

between Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary and Chris date

of Theopologetics podcast and co -editor of rethinking hell and a consuming

passion.

Dr Tony Costa is an advocate of eternal conscious punishment and Chris date is an

advocate of Conditional immortality.

This is our Q &A Session of the debate where we are allowing you the

listener to participate with your own questions.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And please as always give us your first name.

Your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question is a

personal and private matter and If you are remaining anonymous, don't put your real name at all

in the email and Tell us that you are remaining anonymous.

We have a question from John and Bangor, Maine for Chris date and

The question is in Revelation chapter 14.

We read something that was addressed for in the debate earlier.

But was never addressed in this fashion.

In verse 11 we read.

And the smoke of their torment torment goes up forever and ever and This is the part

that Chris date did not address to my knowledge.

They have no rest day and night those who worship the beast in his image and whoever receives

the mark of the beast if Those that are outside of Christ

Or fairly quickly destroyed at the judgment, how can they have no rest day or night?

That's a great question and it highlights something that I explained in our

Braided

into his

not that the book of Revelation depicts The

wicked being annihilated.

Quite the opposite I've explicitly said in our debate and in all of my work for the ministry rethinking hell over the

years that the book of Revelation.

Depicts.

Eternal torment of the unsaying that is to say this apocalyptic symbolic vision that John receives

while he's made unconscious while in exile on the island of Patmos a visionary dream

like that received by Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel and the Pharaoh and Pharaoh's cup Baker a

cup error of Baker and elsewhere it's an apocalyptic symbolic vision in which a

Dragon representing the devil a false prophet and a beast each representing institutions and

beast worshipers.

Representing he symbolizes all of these conscious entities as well as death and 80s depicted

as conscious entities Horsemen in Revelation 8 I believe it is.

All of these conscious entities are thrown into this like a fire and the vision depicts Them being tormented forever and

ever.

The quiet and so no rest day and night makes perfect sense given what's taking place in the imagery.

The question we have to ask ourselves as careful interpreters of God's Word is what does that imagery mean?

What is the reality behind the imagery?

And as I pointed out all of the 18 and 19 where the

fire and dr.

Costa?

Yeah, I think Chris's interpretation exegesis is very strained there and I don't think he answered the question.

The question is not the

air night now.

There here is not just having to

smoke with their trouble going up

forever as being restless versus these

those who see the mark But

die in the

Lord from

our

thank

you.

And

now we

have a question again for.

Actually this time.

It's for dr. Tony Costa we have.

Let's see.

We have an anonymous listener who asks Why is it that?

Christians who believe that God has never commanded his followers

to torture people who are disobedient.

That they believe at the same time God for eternally for eternity.

Will torture those that are not among his children.

It seems incomprehensible to me according to the character and nature

of God himself.

Right.

Yeah,

this

was

in

my

first

but

rather

the

experience

and

Chris

I Just want to say

to follow up on how dr. Costa answered the previous question.

Number one, dr. Costa, unfortunately ignored the first minute of my answer, which was an

affirmation

that the book

and that

hard I represent the city and the thing

that torment that is said to be inflicted upon her in Revelation 18 or 18.

Now after this question, I'll

just be from

now on if you could both of you when we have you.

Responding to the answer of a question don't go back to any previous questions

that really isn't fair as far as.

Giving the debaters equal time to address these issues we have.

Let's see, we have a question for Chris.

Date from Gary in Southbridge, Massachusetts.

Who asks the goats?

All the unsaved along with the beast and the false prophet are sent to share the doom of the devil

and his angels Matthew 25 verse 41 Revelation 20 10 Isn't this period of

suffering for both the demonic and humankind equal in their duration of

existence and.

There there's a typo here and will the annihilated.

I don't.

I don't know what that point was supposed to be.

It seems like he left a word out.

But anyway, if you could address that.

Sure.

Yeah, I agree.

Like beings as a

revelation.

It's to be taken to do as

Tradition with GK Beale

admits there's otherwise

and the question is what does

this monic beings and unsaved people and death and Hades being?

Throw a little mean.

Well I've given a number of reasons in my debate and today for why we should take that imagery as meaning.

Destruction death and Hades are thrown into that lake of

fire symbolizing the second time people will die.

Eternal fire in Matthew 25 41 is a phrase that Jesus had used earlier in Matthew 18 8 9

Where he said it in parallel to Gehenna the Old Testament Valley of Sons The Valley of the Sons of Hinnom which Jeremiah 7 says would become the

valley of slaughter Where the corpses of God's slain enemies would be left unburied and consumed.

So you and you'd

German Gomorrah land

the passage mortality and they make.

And dr. Tony Costa.

Yes, I think

that again

the

straightforward

reading of

Matthew

20

goes

on day

and night

forever.

Okay

folks.

Well, we are going now to our midway part of the program the midway

break and That involves a longer than normal break because grace life radio requires of us a

longer break than normal.

Due to the fact that they have to localize iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City, Florida

to to submit to FCC regulations, so use this time

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During this longer -than -normal break use this time to write down questions for our

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Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

I'm Stephan Lindblad assistant professor of systematic theology at IRBS Theological

Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I.

Accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God

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I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of Theology and the doctrine of Scripture

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I'm dr. Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love

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McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in

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Unfathomable riches of Christ in his Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and Receive the blessing

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You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place with so high Tons of stuff going on.

Yeah tons of great speakers and no matter where you are in the building You will hear Chris Arnzen's laugh.

That's worth the price of admission alone if you would like to join Phil me Chris and a Cavalcade

of great preachers, so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers and me.

G3 conference calm.

G3 conference calm and now there's even more exciting news.

John MacArthur himself is now also on the lineup at the g3 conference Thursday,

January 16th through Saturday January 18th 2020.

Go to g3 conference calm.

G3 conference calm.

See you there.

I'm dr. Gary Kimbrough.

Patch of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

God tells us in James 1 27 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit the fatherless and widows and their affliction

In the providence of God.

Three years ago. I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia In a township called Cabanana who

are taking care of 24 orphans.

I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

What was I to do.

Could I just say God bless you and walk away.

The situation of the children said heavily upon me as I was praying concerning this need.

It came to me I trust from the Lord to tell the orphans plight to a broader audience.

The entire need for their clothing food Education and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

If just 50 of us would give $35 a month We could meet the need.

Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there.

So if you give a dollar a dollar we'll get to the orphans in the season of hope and giving.

Will you consider giving hope?

To 24 orphans, please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church 838 Reed Road

Laurel, Mississippi 39443 or donate through our website BBC Laurel calm

again.

The address is Bethlehem Baptist Church 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi

39443 or BBC laurel .com.

Thank you.

Chris Sorensen host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan, but if you go Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer.

But not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

Recently, he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the Bible.

Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100

cases That have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10

different states in Illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's

history in New York his case involving a paralyzed police officer Made the front page of the Law

Journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you

call Dan.

Consultations are free.

There is no fee unless you win Dan Buttafuoco's number is one eight hundred six six nine

four eight seven eight one eight hundred six six nine Four eight seven eight or email me for

Dan's contact information at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions

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Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future Volunteer donate pray or all

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For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at six three one three eight five eight three

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visit liyfc .org That's

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I'm so grateful to our Sovereign God that while manning an exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron a major Bible

conference I providentially met pastor Andrew Smith of Christ Reformed Community Church.

Just south of Jacksonville, Florida right off I -95 in st John's County.

Andrew is certainly the kind of pastor that is a perfect match for my radio show and has already proven to be an

ideal guest.

Christ Reformed Community Church shares my conviction that God is both creator and sustainer of the

universe.

He rules and reigns providentially over our lives.

He directs not only the historical events of the world, but also the personal events of individuals.

I agree with Christ Reformed Community Church that the very purpose of the church is to make disciples.

That we are tasked with the responsibility to evangelize locally nationally and globally.

And That we are to equip the Saints for the work of service.

Unlike the man -centered seeker sensitive movement They do not gauge the success of biblical discipleship by

how many people are in a church.

But by the faithful ministry of God's Word and Gospel.

For more details on Christ Reformed Community Church visit ChristReformedCC .com.

That's ChristReformedCC .com or call 904

-955 -9000 9881 that's 904

-955 -9000.

Tell Pastor Andrew that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm Pastor Andrew Smith And I'd like to urge you to consider joining Christ Reformed Community

Church of St. John's, Florida in financially supporting Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains.

Prusdy has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget folks every time you purchase a book from Solid -Ground -Books .com

Solid -Ground -Books .com you are helping Iron Sharpens Iron Radio remain on the air

for a longer period of time in the future because we depend upon the financial

support of Solid -Ground -Books .com they are a key advertiser.

And in fact since they began sponsoring this program when we relaunched in

2015 they have tripled their advertising budget with us not only because

they love this show and Know that we need their financial support and want us to remain on the air, but also because you the listener

have been so Responsive to their advertisements and buying so many books from them

That they are so pleased and want To even get more of you to purchase

the finest and Christian literature from them.

So therefore they have as I said tripled their advertising budget with us since 2015 so

please if you haven't yet purchased from Solid -Ground -Books .com Please do so

very soon especially with the holidays coming up and you have plenty of reasons for buying gifts in addition to

edifying yourself and restocking your library.

And also keeping in mind that by doing so you're helping us survive on the airwaves

Because we need Solid -Ground -Books .com In order for ourselves to stick

around.

Thank you Mike Adosh and everybody Involved with Solid -Ground -Books .com for helping Iron Truck and

Zion Radio remain on the air before we return to our debates and

once again, this is part three of A debate that we began a couple of weeks ago between dr Tony

Costa who is an advocate of eternal conscious punishment and Chris Tate who is an

advocate of conditional immortality.

This is the third part where we are getting you the listener Involved in the discussion with your own

questions before we return to that Question and answer session with our audience.

We just have a couple of very important announcements to make regarding upcoming events That we hope you

join me in attending.

The first one's coming up next week I'm gonna be packing up my bags and heading down to the

or should I say heading up to the place of my birth, Long Island, New York To Hope Reform

Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York for their Doctrines of Grace conference

Being sponsored and hosted by Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship.

Area pastors who are thoroughgoing Calvinists and Passionate lovers of the

Doctrines of Sovereign Grace are going to be speaking at this conference November 1st

and November 2nd, that's Friday and Saturday and The themes include God's sovereignty, total depravity,

unconditional election, limited atonement, perseverance of the Saints, is Calvinism biblical and

a Q &A roundtable with the Panel of speakers in the audience.

If you would like to join me there next weekend Friday and Saturday, November 1st And 2nd, at Hope Reform

Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York.

You can get more details at reformedrookie .com

reformedrookie .com.

You can also go to the Hope Reform Baptist Church website for more details on directions at

hopereformedli .net hopereformedli .net and you can call area

code 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711.

Then in December, I'm going to be packing up my bags again and heading to New York City Which in my

opinion is the best place on the planet Earth to experience the Christmas season or at least

part of it and this conference in Manhattan is going to be held during the heart of the Christmas season on December

19th and 20th that is a Thursday and Friday and This is the Foundations

Conference, a conference of sermonaudio .com.

This is only for men and ministry leadership.

So if you are in that category, and you would like to join me there Go to

thefoundationsconference .com thefoundationsconference .com.

The speakers include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Paul Washer, Reverend Jeff Thomas, Reverend Armand Tomasian, Richard

Colwell Jr., and Andrew Quigley and Once again, go to thefoundationsconference

.com thefoundationsconference .com for more details.

Then January, generally Thursday Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th.

I will once again be manning an exhibitors booth at the G3 conference and

I hope that if you are attending that you come by and Visit with me at the Iron Sharpens Iron

exhibitors booth.

I always love being at the G3 conference where over 5 ,000 people are milling around and I meet

so many people not only that love my show and encourage me enormously But also a new

people new people who have never listened to the program before who are introduced to it by me

through my flyers that I hand out and So I hope to see you there Thursday

Through Saturday January 16th through the 18th at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia Which is

a suburb of Atlanta, Georgia.

The theme this January is worship matters and They have as always an

absolutely phenomenal Lineup of speakers.

Once again, we have Stephen J. Lawson at this event we have Dr. James R.

White of Alpha Omega Ministries longtime friend of mine.

Another longtime friend of mine a Phil Johnson the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry grace to you

in fact Phil Johnson has the dubious reputation of being the most interviewed guest out of

anybody that I've ever interviewed here on Iron Sharpens Iron radio my friend Todd Friel of wretched TV and

radio is going to be speaking there.

Dr. Tom Askell the executive director of The founders ministries is the Calvinistic ministry in the

Southern Baptist Convention another longtime friend of mine.

And we have dr Stephen J. Nichols the president of Reformation Bible

College the college founded by the late RC Sproul and Ligonier Ministries and On top of all

that the latest addition to the lineup is John MacArthur himself.

I would urge you if you have a business or a parachurch organization that you want to promote to the body

of Christ.

Especially to people in large numbers.

Not only register to attend at the g3 conference.

I would urge you to register from exhibitors booth just like I will be manning for the fourth year in a row and I

always have an exquisite a superb phenomenal mind -blowing time when I am the g3

conference that proves to be very fruit -bearing and Beneficial to iron sharpens iron radio.

And as I have been saying I think that they're going to have probably a thousand more people than they normally

have At the g3 conference because of the addition of dr. John MacArthur to the roster.

They normally have as I said over 5 ,000 people and I bet you they're gonna have over 6 ,000 people.

That's just an educated guess.

Due to his popularity Globally if you want to join me there at the g3 conference Thursday through

Saturday January 16th through the 18th.

Go to g3 conference comm.

G3 conference comm last but not least if you love my show.

You don't want it to disappear from the airways.

Please.

I'm urging you go to iron sharpens iron radio comm click support.

Then click click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that.

You can also send in a check the old -fashioned way via snail mail to the address that appears on the screen.

When you go to iron sharpens iron radio comm and click support.

Never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church in order to give the iron sharpens iron radio.

Never do that.

Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving the iron sharpens iron radio.

Never do that either.

Those two things are commands of God providing for your own church and for your own family.

Providing for iron sharpens iron radio may not be a command of God.

But if you love this show and you're financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands you have extra

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For trivial things for attending sporting events and movies and the live theater

and refreshments.

Well, please use some of that money if you love this show to help us remain on the air and

Please go to iron sharpens iron radio comm click support then click click to donate now today.

Please donate as Generously as you can and as frequently as you can we are in urgent need of your

donations.

To make it through the month of November next month.

We thank all of you who helped us survive through October.

But November it looks pretty scary.

So please help us remain on the air.

But iron sharpens iron radio comm click support then click click to donate now.

If you are not a member of a local Bible believing church, you're not even prayerfully looking for one.

You are living in rebellion against God, please rectify that situation.

I have Lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world.

I can help you find a church if you need assistant.

So, please send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

I've already helped quite a number of people in the iron sharpens iron radio audience all over the world.

Find churches near them where they have joined or where they have visited while on vacation or that they have Recommended to

the family friends and loved ones that they have that don't have a church home.

So, please send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

Also, if you want to advertise with us, we surely could use your advertising dollars.

Send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put Advertising in the subject line as long as whatever it is.

You're promoting is compatible with what I believe I will help you launch an ad campaign as

quickly as possible.

That's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail calm and now we are back

with.

The.

Question -and -answer session of.

Our.

Three -day debate.

This is the third day of our three -day debate between dr Tony Costa an advocate of eternal conscious punishment

and Chris date an advocate of conditional immortality.

And if you want to join us on the air with a question of your own for either or both of these men our email Address is Chris Arnson at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And I'm sorry guys.

Can either of you tell me who was the last one that received the question?

I.

Think I would.

I think I went first last.

Chris you received the last question.

I believe so, but I could be wrong about that.

I think you're right Chris.

Okay.

Alrighty, this is a question for dr. Tony Costa and in the fact this same listener.

Greg.

Has a question for each of you and Greg if you could if you're still listening provide us

with your city and state and Perhaps country of residence because all we know about

you is that your name is Greg.

Okay, he asks.

I'd like to ask dr Costa why he thinks the final message to John after the vision itself contained

in Revelation 22 verses 14 through 15.

The part one Says the wicked will

continue outside the city actually it says outside are

Presently the liars murderers are the wicked continuing to commit murders in

hell.

Who are they murdering.

A very good question?

The idea

of

life

at the end

there.

It says we

need to be holy.

Don't

be the

redeemed continue to go now.

But in eternity we

will be

what will

be held in

check.

But

in the

ancient Greek

Prisoning them the idea here

is out in

the end away from

the Christie.

It will help prevent me from being mischaracterized any longer.

After this specific question, I'll just point out that beginning in verse 6 of Revelation 22.

We are no longer in the vision.

We have now exited the vision and now we're reading the close of John's letter.

What took place after.

John is sort of awakened from his from his talk about let him who

continues sinning Let the evil doer still do evil out, etc.

He's talking about people in his day because this is an opportunity.

He's giving his contemporaries and everybody between him and us and into the future until Christ returns.

He's giving them an urgent message repent so that when he returns you will be able to enter into life.

And.

Chris state can I ask a clarifying question because you may have left some of our listeners scratching their heads.

I I'm pretty certain.

In fact, I am certain that.

What.

What you just meant when you were clarifying about the eternal Eternality of punishment

you believe that the punishment is eternal, but not the punishing.

That's one way to put it.

That's right.

Okay.

Just wanted to make sure that our listeners understood that.

Sure and now we have the same listener Greg who asks

dr.

I'm sorry, who s Chris date a question I'd like to ask Chris state

why he thinks Jesus says in Matthew chapter 10 verse 28 and He is

citing from part one of the debate Where you apparently said this God

will destroy both body and soul in hell.

Actually, it says God can destroy.

Why I say we'll earthly in the Luke

and or fear

God.

Don't fear men

who can do no more after they but the thing

is he's talking about Gehenna.

And and there are myriad passages in the New Testament, which indicate that

Gehenna is only be so we have

no reason for thinking that he's only saying God can do this in Gehenna.

But actually won't.

And secondly, it would be absurd to think that what he's saying is fear Can do X Y or Z, but

actually won't do that.

He might as well say rather fear God who can turn you into a chicken.

It's absurd.

It's very clear that in context that what God is saying is don't fear men.

Because and mind you the disciples were presently at that time Facing

real death

and

28 as the doctrine and very effective who argues that this

isn't what God will in fact do.

And dr. Tony Costa if you

could respond to yes, I would I would agree I would agree with Chris.

It's

not

that

Matthew

1028

very

okay.

And by the way, this is a reminder to me to announce that anybody who sent in a

first -time question.

Both before now and right up to the end of the program if you're a first -time questioner

You will receive a free New American Standard Bible.

So, please send me your email, I'm sorry, send me your full mailing address.

So I can have Cvbbs .com or one of our sponsors ship that Bible out to

you and that's compliments of Cvbbs .com and also the publishers of the New American Standard

Bible.

We have a first -time questioner Skylar in Alberta Canada

in Lacombe Alberta Canada who has a question for dr. Costa?

How are the wicked going to remain in existence when they are sent away from the very substance

of their existence?

For in him we live and move and have our being acts.

Chapter 17 verses 28.

Doesn't the separation from God necessitate the cessation of their life?

The

short

answer

that

is

debate and

Chris

state

At firstly the words of Anastasia and Apartheid don't need to be used in order to say someone is a mortal

couple of dying in Luke 20 in the very same breath in which the sons of God Human beings are

said to be unable to die specifically saved human beings.

So it's just simply untrue that the Bible never says the righteous angels are immortal.

But as for the listeners question, I would agree with dr. Costa actually that it would be a

mistake to read Language in Scripture about the wicked being cast out of God that

God sees.

I think that's a mistake.

However, I will say this raises the question that I've

raised in my

debate and

goes on forever.

All right.

Thank you Skylar and keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and spreading the word in Alberta

Canada and beyond.

We have Susan Margaret and Dauphin County, Pennsylvania.

Who asked the question?

For both of you.

She first asked Chris date.

How can your view meet the understanding of God being just?

When the sweet old lady next door Who is a Jehovah's Witness is basically getting the

same punishment as Adolf Hitler or? Charles Manson or one of the most

heinous monsters that has ever lived.

Okay.

Good question.

Firstly, I'll point out that the exact same problem faces the traditional view of eternal torment.

Because no matter how much how much different one person's suffering is from another if that suffering

goes on for eternity Billions of years for all eternity

any difference between the lead into nothing.

So the same exact Objection could be but as for my view I don't think

that there's any reason to think that in

in

commensurate with my view and the reason is because there are a couple Of different ways at

least that one of them

is seen in our

own on criminals.

Namely the experience of the wicked as they're being put to death by each of those different means of

capital punishment.

Varies so we can easily say that yeah.

Sure, perhaps a little old lady down the street will experience a relatively painless destruction And whereas Hitler

will experience an extremely painful violent shameful her live again.

Which is that if

one person is

hardly remembered at

all and another person is remembered

with the utmost of contempt for eternity.

That and dr. Tony Costa

Yeah, I think

on

the

condition

are

raised

from

the

in the end.

They're both

more

than for

well.

I've Chris state has proven to be a prophet because Susan Margaret did ask the same question

and you already answered it Tony.

Oh.

So, thank you for that and thank you Susan Margaret in Dauphin County for the question.

We have a question for Chris date.

That we will ask right before we go to our final break and we'll have him answer it and we'll have Tony Costa

respond to His answer when we return from the break.

So this gives you a little bit of time to think about this.

Chris we have Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York

Who asks what is the difference between your view and annihilationism?

And how long will the period of suffering be for those that you believe will

eventually be Annihilated and we'll have you answer that When we come back from the break

and if anybody else wants to join us on the air our question our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And keep in mind we are rapidly running out of time.

So if you have a question you want to ask that would do it quickly or forever hold your peace.

We'll be right back.

God willing after these messages from our sponsors.

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Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan, but if you go Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer.

But not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

Recently, he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the Bible.

Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100

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In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in New York.

His case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law Journal.

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Consultations are free.

There is no fee unless you win Dan, but a few goes number is one eight hundred six six nine

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Or email me for Dan's contact information at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the dividing line webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my

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Located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions.

Have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

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And if you recall Chris states our last question was for you and the question

was basically asking you to Distinguish between annihilation ism in your

view and to give us Your ideas about how long the suffering of the damned will

occur.

First of all the difference between my view and annihilation ism.

Annihilation ism is like one leg of the stool that is conditional immortality.

See annihilation ism is just the view that the wicked will could be completely destroyed and that's something that's entailed by

Conditional immortality, but the reason I prefer the label conditional immortality is because it correctly captures the reality

that my Understanding of what awaits the wicked in hell is in part stems from my understanding of

other things.

The Bible says about life and death about mortality and immortality about God's holiness and his

goodness.

About creation and recreation.

And so uncomfortable being called an annihilationist because my view entails

Annihilationism informed by a much larger more comprehensive

Set of beliefs.

Now ask for the other question.

How long do I think the period of suffering will be for the wicked in hell?

The Bible doesn't say and so I prefer not to speculate that the

end of their suffering is very clear in Scripture.

Not only because of all the biblical evidence that I've given and more that I won't do now.

We will have any chance to discuss it all but also because of the theological evidence I offer that has still yet gone

unanswered.

Namely that sin is

so that God

will not

ensure that

and dr.

Costa

Yes, it's

a bit

unanswered

still

what

exactly

what we

need

to

understand

the

minority.

Okay,

dr. Costa.

We have a question for you.

It seemed.

Oh, this is a Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

It seems that even Calvinists who believe in eternal conscious punishment disagree with one another.

Over the fate of infants who dial die while still in infancy.

Do you believe that there will be infants for eternity in hell?

That's a very very good question

a very

controversial

question

and Chris date.

Well, obviously I don't believe

in eternal

torment because the Bible doesn't

teach it but I

can say that who's lost to cheat.

We're actually the Bible leading eternity.

But but even if but so

what I would

say is that if it's

to be raised in bodies that are big any

Number

92 is raised in a night

for anything in

even Bobby in Hartsdale, New York is a question for Chris date.

He says one of the biggest problems I have with your view is that multitudes of evil

satanic Wicked beings are getting exactly what they want.

According to review according to your view They are being put out of existence.

That's what many of them claim now that they think will happen to them.

Can you please respond?

Yeah, sure.

I've got

a

campaign.

They will torment

three.

Agnostic poet Philip

about his terrorine.

He was an atheist and he writes about it.

The reality is

you curious.

Tried.

They tried

their darndest just

recently.

I watched an episode

and dr.

Costa.

Very quickly

if you could respond.

Yes.

Yeah.

So while

my experience

has

actually

been

the

opposite

in my in my

work in

ministry,

okay.

We're out of time if anybody wants to contact either of our debaters.

We they have given their contact information in parts one and two of this debate.

We don't have time right now.

I want to thank Ellen for allowing us to keep her name intact in the program and

for reassuring me that neither her nor her husband were offended by Her name

being mentioned.

I want to thank both of my debaters for being a part of the program.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions For your

participation.

I want to I want to remind you that That I hope that you all have a blessed and happy and

safe weekend and Lord's Day and I want you all to remember For the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ

is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.