Concerns About Obedience? | Theocast

Theocast

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:06

In today's episode of Theocast, John and I are going to have a conversation about concerns that are often raised toward us and toward other people who are confessional and reformed.

00:18

Guys, it doesn't seem that there's enough talk about obedience. Doesn't seem like there's enough application being done in preaching or just in our study of Scripture as it pertains to how we live, our personal holiness, and how we should obey

00:32

God. So, what would John and I say in response to those legitimate, sincere concerns?

00:40

Well, if you're interested in hearing what we have to say on this matter, stay tuned for today's episode. We hope it encourages you.

00:46

Before we jump into the podcast, we want to tell you about a really important announcement. We're doing a one -day conference on suffering and the return of Christ.

00:54

It's going to be January 18, 2024, in Escondido, California, and we're going to be doing it with the

01:01

Bounding Grace Radio with the host, Chris Gordon, and we're going to be hosting it at his church, which is

01:07

Escondido United Reformed Church. We're going to be having four sessions, going to start in the morning,

01:12

Thursday morning at 10 a .m., and we're going to go all the way through the evening, and we're going to have a special guest with us that evening,

01:18

Dr. Bob Godfrey, who's going to be joining us in a panel as we discuss the importance of suffering and eschatology and why our eschatology matters.

01:26

Please go and register. It's going to be January 18 in Escondido, California, and we look forward to seeing you there.

01:43

Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ because He is sufficient.

01:50

Conversations about the Christian life from a confessional, Reformed, and pastoral perspective. If you're wondering what we try to do here at Theocast, we try to take the clutter off of the gospel and reclaim the purpose of the kingdom of Christ through podcasts and other things.

02:06

Your host today, I've already given his name away for those who are new, your host today,

02:11

John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, and I'm Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

02:18

We have met again today to record a podcast, hopefully. But before we do, John does have an announcement, maybe two.

02:24

He's good at these. And then he's going to tell us what we're going to be talking about today. That's right. Well, we're in the process because of your guys' monthly donations and one -time donations that gives us more capital to do things like this.

02:37

We're in the process of getting a book edited for you, written by Justin. I'm just going to leave it there.

02:42

We'll let more of that come soon. We'll probably drop the title and maybe even a chapter. I don't even know.

02:48

We've got to figure out what the working title is. Yeah, that's why I'm not going to drop it now, but it's going to be really good.

02:55

For those of you that love Theocast, this is right up your alley. It's going to be coming out of Romans. We might even drop the first chapter in the community, which is what

03:04

I also want to talk about. And this is growing. There's over 760 people, I think, in there now. And recently,

03:11

I've been looking at a couple of bios of people that joined, and there was a lady who just joined who's in hospice. She's like, I can't leave.

03:17

This group has been so encouraging. I read the posts, I interact here. That was encouraging. There's another lady who lost her grandchild, and anyway, there's just a lot of people finding comfort there.

03:30

So you can go to theocastcommunity .org and learn more about that. It's an online both app and community online, and all of our resources are there.

03:40

So it's just a great way to get connected with like -minded believers around the world. We got an email.

03:46

What country were they coming from? What was that one I sent you? Wales. Was it Wales? Yeah. In the

03:53

UK. Yeah, somewhere in there. Anyways, it's been great. It's been encouraging. And then we potentially have an event coming up.

04:00

We'll let you know where that's at. We're working out the details of that. So stay tuned.

04:05

I can't tell you any more than that because we're not quite sure it's going to work out, but I hope it works out. I think it will. Anyways, so stay tuned for that.

04:11

That's all of the announcements. Hey, Christmas is coming. One last one. So a lot of you are buying merch.

04:17

You're going to need to put your orders in soon because it takes a couple of weeks to get them out. So we've got coffee mugs and hats and hoodies and shirts, all kinds of good stuff in there.

04:27

So if you haven't ever looked at our store, you can buy our books that are in there as well. And yeah, that's it.

04:34

All right. Subject, Justin. Today is one we're going to try to get in in like 38 to 40 minutes.

04:43

We're going to do our best because the moment I mentioned it to Justin, he was like, oh yes, we have to do this today.

04:51

This is going to be what we talk about today. I had three options. I didn't get to give him the two other options. So I gave him the first one and I'll stop teeing it up.

05:01

It is something that I know a lot of you are skeptical as you listen to Theocast and as you listen to Justin and I preach.

05:09

It's something that Justin and I deal with as new visitors come to our congregation. They enjoy the exposition of the text, they enjoy the liturgy and the worship, the communion, but there's something that always feels different and not off.

05:23

They don't like to use the word off as if it's like it's wrong or something, but it feels different. And the word is they feel like at times something's missing.

05:33

Like they love everything that we say, but there's something that feels like it's missing.

05:39

And if you grew up in evangelicalism or if you grew up in pietism, it is the emphasis on application, specifically the obedience of the believer.

05:50

What must I be doing this week? And Justin and I love to offer application and we all love to offer obedience to people, but it sounds different.

06:00

And the reason why it sounds different is that we do not come from a pietistic revivalistic evangelical background in our preaching.

06:06

We are coming from a Reformed confessional law gospel distinction in our preaching, which is going to have a different perspective.

06:14

And that perspective in our argument today, which is what we're going to be arguing, comes from the text.

06:20

We're not adding this in because of culture. We're not adding this in because of creeds and confessions. Those definitely enlightened us, they give us direction, they give us insight to history.

06:29

What we're going to argue today is the believer and obedience, we have to look at the text.

06:37

And what I want to do and Justin and I are going to do is look at the story and the nature of the Bible and how it was written and what are we supposed to do with it as a reader and as a preacher and as those who are consuming it as a church.

06:49

How does obedience and the Bible go hand in hand? Therefore, it must dictate what we emphasize and what we don't emphasize.

06:57

That's kind of the introduction, Justin. I'll let you jump into it before we get into the overarching context of the

07:03

Bible and obedience. Justin Perdue I mean, you said a ton, I'm in agreement. I'm just sitting here nodding like, yep, that too, that as well.

07:12

We're Reformed guys, we're law gospel guys, like you said, we're not reacting. I think if I'm going to nuance anything or maybe add a comment, you said, we're not doing this because of culture, we're not doing this because of these various reasons, and we're not reacting against evangelicalism.

07:29

We're not reacting against pietism, necessarily. What we're doing, we're seeking genuinely to take our cue from Scripture, primarily, and then also take our cue from the sound

07:42

Orthodox tradition that's been passed down to us as well, like how faithful Christians have understood the

07:48

Bible before us. And with all of those things, along with some of the hermeneutical tools, that's a big word, but how we understand and interpret the

07:57

Scriptures. And one of the big things that you said is law and gospel, the distinction between those, which we've done a number of episodes about.

08:05

We could refer you to them. If you search through our queue, you'll find several that might help you understand the law and the gospel.

08:11

Inevitably, that's going to come up today. We also are covenantal theologians, and that's a big piece of how we understand the

08:18

Scriptures to hang together, and we're going to talk about that some today, too. I'll begin with this comment to maybe get us off and running.

08:26

Martin Lloyd -Jones said this, but I think other people have reiterated similar things. When it comes to any book of Scripture, or when it comes to even bigger sections of the

08:37

Bible, this holds true. If we do not understand the whole, we will do terrible things with the parts.

08:46

So for us, one of the main things that needs to be in our mind...

08:51

Now, John, you and I happen to be pastors. We preach God's Word regularly, but this would apply, no pun intended, to the person listening to this show who is seeking to better understand their

09:02

Bible. Think about, how do I live as a Christian and everything else? One of the major questions that needs to be in our minds all the time is, what is the whole book about?

09:12

We were recently together for an event, GRN's founding, and you said something along these lines.

09:18

I've said it many times in the context of my own local church. The Bible is a story.

09:24

The Bible is God's plan of redemption that He accomplishes through His Son, Jesus the

09:30

Christ. And so that main point should color, inform every single sermon.

09:40

Every single page of the Bible needs to be read in light of that main point. If we do that, first and foremost, it's going to save us from a multitude of errors.

09:47

This book is not a handbook on godly living. It is not primarily about what we need to do.

09:52

It is primarily about God, what He has done through Jesus to save a people for Himself. So if we start there, we're on the right track.

09:59

Then understanding that Jesus, in that sense, is the point of the whole book, who

10:04

He is and what He came to accomplish, and what that means for us, and what this is going to look like forever and ever and forever after that.

10:11

If we keep that in view as well, we're on the right track. So that's the 30 ,000 -foot comment.

10:17

There's a lot that we're going to say specifically pertaining to obedience and application. What is it that drives and fuels obedience?

10:27

Do we often miss the point when it comes to talking about holiness? We're going to consider some of that.

10:33

Justin Perdue Yeah, so when you're thinking about this book, you start in Genesis chapter one, and you're beginning with the story of God creating a perfect world in a garden and puts humans in the garden.

10:48

Then all of a sudden, everything falls into chaos, and He has to slaughter animals to cover their shame, and then puts a curse upon the world because of their sin.

10:58

What you are faced with immediately is the original design of the world is no longer in function.

11:06

It's partly there. You can see it. You can experience it. But Romans tells us immediately, this is not right because we're groaning.

11:14

We're groaning. The world's groaning. Everything's wrong. But there's the hope, which is the restoration of all things.

11:22

So immediately, the Bible is not about how to live a sinless life, how to live a life of constant improvement, or how to change this world to return it back to Eden.

11:33

When you read the story of it, it's a story of redemption, and there's one doing the redeeming, and that's the seed of Eviv, who then becomes what we know as the great

11:43

Messiah. So that's the story. Then you read the end of the story, and what does he do?

11:48

He wipes away all tears, and he brings down the new heavens and the new earth, and there's a glorious restoration of fellowship with the

11:55

Father. It's beautiful. In all evil, all evil is destroyed. That's right. And so it really is a story of good versus evil because it's not that he's redeeming.

12:05

He's not redeeming people from a neutral world. He's redeeming people from a battlefield.

12:11

They're at war with themselves. They're at war with the evil one, and they're at war with God. I mean, it's just a mess. There are all kinds of battles going on from different countries and different powers and beings.

12:19

This is Ephesians 6. So when I'm thinking about the whole story, then what

12:28

I'm doing makes a whole lot more sense. But when you parachute down into the text and you look at things and you don't look at the greater context, then you could walk away,

12:38

Justin, very simply reading a verse like Hebrews 12. Without holiness, no one will see the Lord. So the point of holiness is to see

12:45

God. Therefore, that puts a massive emphasis on holiness, and I'm not going to be preaching holiness because no one will see

12:51

God without it. Justin Perdue Go ahead. I know you wanted to say something. Justin Perdue No, but you can isolate any number of verses from the lips of Christ Himself where He will say things like, you need to do what the law says, and then you'll enter into eternal life.

13:04

And you could draw all kinds of terrible conclusions if you're not being a responsible student of the

13:11

Bible, keeping in mind what the main point is and the context of it all. Let's get a little bit closer to the ground here.

13:20

You and I were talking before we started the recording that the book of Scripture applies to the listener.

13:29

The whole Bible should inform how you read any one text. Justin Perdue I would say, preachers, teachers, and readers.

13:34

This applies to everyone. Justin Perdue Yeah, sure, it applies to everyone. Even the book of Scripture, one of the 66 that you are in, the main thrust of that book also should factor into how you understand any one verse.

13:48

Justin Perdue That's right. Justin Perdue This has often been stated. Obviously, I'm in the book of Romans right now. I should say obviously.

13:53

If you're new to the show, you might not know that. If you've been listening, you're aware. I'm preaching through the book of Romans. And when you're a preacher, or you know how this is when you're doing a

13:59

Bible study, you're leading a Bible study, or you're participating in one, your head is often in the book that you're spending a lot of time in at the present moment.

14:08

Most people know that Romans is a letter from Paul to the church in Rome. As has been said so many times,

14:15

I think it's just helpful though, if I were to write you a letter, John, where I was communicating a number of things that are happening in my life, or a number of things about our relationship, and things that I feel, and things that I need from you, and things that I would like for you to do, and explaining the reasoning of all that.

14:33

If I had a letter of that kind of scope written to you, and you were to parachute into the latter half of the letter and pick out a sentence, whatever the sentence, but you didn't read that sentence in light of everything that had come before it, and you didn't read that sentence in light of everything that's coming after it, including how

14:56

I sign off to you, you would be very prone to misunderstand that sentence.

15:02

Can I give an example? Yeah, please. Imagine there is a scenario where it's being reported that I yelled at my son,

15:11

I grabbed his arm, and I yanked him to the ground. What would that say about what kind of father I am? Generally speaking, people would be alarmed.

15:19

Yeah, but then the full context is my son wasn't paying attention. He was chasing a ball, jumped in front of a car.

15:25

He didn't hear me, so therefore I had to grab his arm, and I saved him at the last second. What does that tell you? I'm a loving father.

15:31

That's right. You're protecting your son. Exactly. Context is king.

15:37

We agree with all the people who say that. Sometimes accusations are levied against us or guys like us who are confessional, law gospel, redemptive historical preachers or teachers, as though we disagree with a lot of the things that are said by serious -minded

15:53

Christians as it pertains to interpreting and preaching the Bible. We actually agree. We care very much about the sentences and the syntax and the words on the page, but we also care a ton about context, and we want to interpret.

16:06

We care about original authorial intent. What was the author trying to communicate? Even above that, we care about what is the

16:13

Lord, the Spirit of God who inspired all 66 books of the Bible. What is He meaning to communicate in and through this human author who has a true, albeit imperfect, and not full understanding of what

16:27

He's writing? The prophets didn't understand everything they wrote. They had to search their own writings and try to figure out what the

16:33

Lord was doing. The angels themselves don't understand everything that the Lord is doing. They long to look into these things.

16:39

True, but not exhaustive understanding when it comes to the original authors. We care about all that, but let's talk about context a little bit.

16:47

Let's talk about emphasis and thrust of the Scripture and of any one book. That's right. We'll just get right down to the nitty -gritty.

16:54

When it comes to law, like, these are the things that you need to do in order to be righteous. When it comes to imperatives, exhortations in the

17:03

Scripture, a significant question we have to ask is, how should these things be preached? Well, the context is going to drive that.

17:11

How the author writes it is going to drive that. High -level theological convictions are going to drive that.

17:17

And so I would be wrong, John, just to give an example, and we'll talk more maybe in principle in a second.

17:22

I would be wrong to take an exhortation in an epistle, for example, where Christians are exhorted to live in a certain way.

17:31

If I were to divorce that from all of the gospel and all of the grace and all of the identity -forward, status -forward language that preceded that exhortation, that would be a terrible way to preach

17:44

Christian living. Because as far as the apostolic pattern is concerned, it is always a because of, not a so that reality.

17:54

Because of God, because of Christ, because of grace, because you're born again, because you've been rescued and redeemed and restored and forgiven, because of all of that, now live like this.

18:05

And that, in my mind, I'm in Romans. Every verse from Romans 12, 1 and following has to be informed by everything that was written in Romans 1 to 11.

18:15

If it's not, that's a mistake, right? Jon Moffitt I'll give you a great example of this.

18:20

I mean, I probably quote this too much, but it's just a prime example of something that is new. 2 Peter chapter 1, he starts with verse 3, his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

18:34

So his divine power, not us, not our obedience, everything that we're going to need to accomplish this life and godliness through the knowledge of him who called us.

18:43

So where do we gain knowledge? We gain it from the law. We gain it from all of scripture, but which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises.

18:53

So he goes on to talk about how these are incorruptible. Now, verse 5, for this reason, the knowledge about God and his love and his divine power, for that reason, for this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue and virtue with knowledge.

19:10

He goes on to obedience. Okay, so what's interesting is you then have to ask, well, where do

19:16

I find the knowledge of this? What divine knowledge are we talking about as my motivation for obedience?

19:24

That's all of scripture. So Justin, I made this observation to you, and I've made it for in the past. If we were to just take the book from Genesis to Revelation, and let's just start with the

19:32

Old Testament, how many passages in the Old Testament, verses in the Old Testament that you can say these are direct commands for the believer?

19:40

Yeah, very few say, all right, here's the command. Because the vast majority of the Old Testament is narrative. Yes. Right.

19:47

And even Proverbs is just wisdom. And yeah, you have writings. So yeah, you have a lot of verse and wisdom and different things there.

19:54

And then in the prophets, much of it is revelatory in terms of it's God's commentary on what's happening.

20:00

And the Lord talking about what he's going to do through the Messiah who's coming. That's right. Pointing to the new heavens and new earth.

20:06

So I'm agreeing with you, but putting a little more flesh on the bone. Yeah. It's the backstory to this through the knowledge of him who called us into his own glory.

20:17

So the knowledge of God manifested in Christ through the work of Israel and the prophets of old.

20:27

That's where we learn this information. Because Peter, when he's writing this, he's not referencing the gospels here. He's referencing the

20:33

Old Testament. That's what he's referencing. For sure. Through this knowledge of what we know from the writings of the prophets of old, we gain this confidence for our obedience.

20:46

This is really important because let's just say we're going to preach the Bible from front to back, how it's been ordered.

20:52

You're going to hear a lot about who God is and who we are, how we have failed in Adam and how

20:59

God has succeeded in Christ, even through the failure of Israel and the prophets and the judges.

21:06

Every sermon is going to be concluding with, believe in this compassionate, loving

21:11

God. That's what the application has to be because there's nothing for you to do. That's just Old Testament.

21:17

Let me finish and get to the New Testament, Justin. How much imperative is there to the believer in the gospels?

21:25

Very few. Other than when Jesus is preaching the law in order to crush people and drive them to himself.

21:33

You have some imperatives to pray, you have some imperatives to forgive, and you have imperatives to go and make disciples.

21:42

You don't have a ton of it. If you're going to even preach the gospels, 80 to 90 percent of your sermons are going to be about Jesus.

21:54

Justin Perdue literally the point of every gospel. If you're preaching Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, in one sense the point of every sermon you preach from those books is that Jesus is the

22:02

Christ. Jesus is the Messiah.

22:08

Trust him. If that's not the main emphasis of every sermon you preach from the gospels, I don't know what in the world you're doing.

22:31

All of our resources are there. Past podcasts, education materials, and articles are all there.

22:36

You can share it and ask questions. You can go check it out. The link is in the description below. Then get to your epistles and you start reading them.

22:44

You will notice they always do a sandwich effect. They start with the sufficiency of Christ and then your obedience.

22:51

The point I'm making is that five percent of your Bible at best is instructive.

22:59

Now that doesn't mean it's not important. I'm not de -emphasizing. People hear me say that and they're like, well, you're just de -emphasizing.

23:06

Those passages are important. Exactly. They are very important, but you do have to pay attention to the amount of indicative the truth of who

23:15

God is on our behalf versus the imperative of what you are supposed to be doing. The reason why

23:21

I state it this way is that the Bible is giving you the motivations for your obedience.

23:28

What we are to do is not very complicated, Justin. It's not a long list.

23:34

I was saying that to you earlier, John. Gosh, I have so many thoughts at the moment. Real quick on indicative and imperative.

23:40

Imperatives are always grounded in the indicative, and the indicative always drives the imperative.

23:45

So real quick, in case people don't understand, an indicative is the stated truth. Yes. Indicative is stated truth, and effectively, biblically speaking, here is who

23:56

God is and here is what He's done for you through Christ. So that's indicative. Imperative is exhortation, command to do this, live like this.

24:05

So the imperative, what we're to do, is always grounded in the indicative, who

24:11

God is and what He's done for us. And the indicative, who

24:17

God is, what He's done for us in Christ, drives the imperative. Meaning, everything that we do is driven, propelled, empowered, made possible by who

24:27

God is and what Christ has done for us. So I'll give a really quick example, because you already gave one.

24:33

I'm just going to give another. The book of Ephesians is Exhibit A, because it divides so beautifully in the middle.

24:39

The first three chapters, most everybody knows, we begin with the eternal covenant of redemption, where God is determined before the world ever began to save a people for Himself.

24:47

Then Paul makes it very plain that we were once dead, and because of God's amazing grace, we've been made alive together with the

24:55

Lord Jesus Christ. And it's nothing that we contribute, right? And we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, and God has prepared good works for us that we will walk in.

25:03

Then he talks about how the mystery of Christ is that God was going to make one people.

25:09

Jew and Gentile bring them all together into the one body of Christ, and we together are going to be built into the dwelling place of God by the

25:16

Spirit. He talks about the mystery of Christ that has been hidden to an extent for ages and is now being revealed to the nations.

25:24

This is why Paul has been called to be an apostle. By the way, the church, the saving of one people,

25:30

Jew and Gentile, through Jesus into this one body called the church, is how God is going to declare

25:35

His power to the principalities and the authorities, even the heavenly places. So we're talking about even to Satan and demons, fallen angels, everybody.

25:42

This is how God is going to demonstrate that He is the Lord, and He will do this for all of the universe to see, right?

25:51

So then in light of all of that, and Paul prays for them at multiple points, that you would know the hope to which you've been called, right?

25:57

That you would know the riches of Christ's glorious inheritance in the saints, that you would know the power of God that's at work in you. I pray that the

26:03

Lord would strengthen you and your inner man so that you might know the love of Christ for you. Having done all that, what does he do?

26:09

I therefore, because of all that, right? This is Ephesians 4, 1 and following.

26:14

I urge you to walk in a manner commensurate with that, and he begins with love each other, pursue unity, right?

26:23

Build one another up because that's the purpose of the church, and then he goes on to say other things. Walking in love is a huge emphasis, mutual submission one to another in the church, and then he ends with the reality of spiritual warfare and is encouraging us to put on Christ as we engage in this battle against Satan and the principalities of darkness, right?

26:44

I mean, what a letter! But it's all of that, like the latter three chapters, love, unity, the building up of the church, walking in love, right?

26:53

Not dividing, encouraging one another in Psalms, Hymns, and spiritual songs, mutual submission, and the armor of God who is

27:00

Christ as we engage in the spiritual war. All of that is preached in light of the fact that God is determined to save you, and here is who

27:07

Christ is for you. Here is how God has given you life. It was a miracle. You've been united to Christ and the riches of God's grace in Jesus.

27:16

We're going to praise it forever, and oh, by the way, for now, you've been prepared to walk. These are good works you're going to walk in, so walk in them.

27:23

That's how we preach. That's how we should study. Yeah, so that was a long story.

27:30

No, it was great. I'll give an illustration related to where I want to go next. My son and I were trying to fix my 17 -year -old, and I was trying to fix my seven -year -old's bike, and his was wobbling, the rim was.

27:42

So, we've got all the tools, and we're tightening the spokes. We're tightening the spokes, you know, because I think

27:47

I'd seen this before, and all of a sudden, we hear, we hear, we totally, we tighten the spokes so much, it popped his tube, you know, and I opened it up.

27:57

I was like, oh, what an idiot. I can't believe I did that. So, then finally, we fixed the tube. We put it back on, and my son and I pull out the instructions, like, maybe we should pay attention to how to use this tool, you know, and we think of, wait, we have to obey.

28:11

We have to obey. So, we think we have all the information we need. We have the tools. We have the project. Let's go do it, and then we end up destroying or damaging because we don't use it the way it was intended to be used, and we just assume because we know that we have to go.

28:25

We got to straighten out the wheel. We just go and do it. This is what's frustrating to me about obedience.

28:33

People are emphasizing obedience, and we need to be out there and obeying, but I'm like, you need to stop for a second and ask yourself, why are you obeying?

28:41

To what end? And what is God doing with your obedience? You just are so focused on obeying.

28:48

You don't even know why you're obeying, you know, and that's the thing about, like, that's Justin and I are trying to emphasize.

28:54

We're emphasizing the why and the how, and all you want to know is the what. So, I'll give you an example.

29:02

Jesus says, seek first the kingdom of God. That's a part of our obedience. Seek first the kingdom of God.

29:08

Do you understand that everything that was written up to that point, old and new, is explaining to you who the king is, what is his kingdom, and how does it work?

29:20

Do you know why most people don't even know how to answer the question, seek first the kingdom of God? What does that mean? Because they're more concerned about how it's done than why it's done, and who's the king, and what is he accomplishing?

29:33

You see, if you faithfully preach Matthew, you're going to be emphasizing more about what the kingdom, like, the kingdom of heaven is like, the kingdom of heaven is like.

29:41

You're more interested in how to do the work of the kingdom than it is why you do the work of the kingdom, and so this is why when we preach, we're emphasizing who the king is, what he came to accomplish, his prophet, priest, and king.

29:55

Why are these images important? How does it work in our prayer life? How does it work when we evangelize?

30:00

When he says, lay up treasures in heaven, don't worry about what you wear. All of this is connected to your obedience of why you're obeying, but you want me to emphasize how you're obeying.

30:11

I'm like, no, you need to understand why first. I'll make this one last statement, and I'll throw it to you, Justin. The why for most people because of pietism and revivalism is prove your salvation and earn your spot in the kingdom.

30:24

The king says you're in the kingdom. I'm just trying to teach you how to work in the kingdom. This isn't earning your spot in the kingdom.

30:32

That's granted you by grace. Justin Perdue Yeah, most people, we think about earning it or feeling good about how we're doing so that we might then feel good in our approach to God, etc.

30:41

I have several big thoughts. I'm going to try to get them all in before the end of the episode, and we'll ping -pong back and forth, John, and we'll trust the

30:47

Lord in it. How does sanctification occur? Growth in godliness, obedience, how does that occur?

30:55

I mean, obviously, the power of God, we can say that. It's the Lord who produces it in and through us. Amen. But in particular, how does he go about doing that?

31:02

Well, I would argue that as we gather and as we preach law and gospel, this is what's going on in the gathering of the saints.

31:11

We preach the law, first of all, to believers and unbelievers alike to make it plain that this standard is one of spiritual righteousness that none of us can attain.

31:20

So if you're an unbeliever and you're in the gathering, do not look to yourself in any way. Look to Jesus alone.

31:26

If you're a believer in the service, also don't get this twisted. This is still true for you today on the backside of your conversion that you can never meet this standard, and so look to Jesus alone.

31:36

We start there. Then we talk about all the good things that are revealed in the law and how it guides our living. Having said that, the law does not in and of itself change anyone.

31:47

The law can guide our living, but it cannot empower it. Where does the power come from?

31:55

Only from Christ, in the spirit of Christ. Where do we behold

32:00

Christ? Well, we behold him in his word. How do we most tangibly encounter him?

32:05

Through the preaching of him from his word and through the administration of his sacraments. As we come week over week, we receive

32:14

Christ by faith as we behold him in the scripture. We receive Christ in faith in the waters of baptism and in the supper and the bread and the cup.

32:21

It is that that fuels and propels and drives obedience and holiness.

32:27

Like you said, we're trying to give people not just the what, we're trying to give people the why, and we're trying to give people the how.

32:33

We're trying to give people the power unto obedience, and that is through the heralding of Jesus Christ for them.

32:40

Nothing else will ever win the day. Your willpower, my discipline, your effort, it won't do it.

32:49

But Christ in us, that will do it. That's what we have to keep saying, and that's how obedience and holiness has to be talked about.

32:58

That was one comment. Back to you. This is why I believe the Bible is structured with 95 % indicatives.

33:10

The first command we're given is to love God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And what does 1

33:16

John tell us? We love him because he first loved us. Then Jesus says, if you love me, you'll keep my commandments.

33:29

Well, then how do you learn to love the Lord? It's not by the imperative of doing it.

33:35

It's by the indicative of learning how he loved you. No greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for you.

33:41

I love this from Isaiah when he says that he has graven us on his hands.

33:48

I have not forgotten you. You belong to me. And it's a beautiful picture because we know that what does

33:53

Jesus end up receiving in his hands? The nail scars of his hands. And he's like, that's my love for you.

34:00

For my own sake, I blot out your transgressions. That's right. Right. So when we see the love of God for us, we go,

34:07

I love that man. I love this God and I want to obey him. It is not

34:12

I must obey him so that I can love him. It's the opposite. So 95 % of your Bible is about how

34:18

God loves you and redeemed you from yourself and from your sin and from the curse of Adam. That's the whole thing.

34:23

And the more about God you learn, the more you love him, the more you love him, the more you'll obey him.

34:29

That's the cycle. Go to John 15, right? If you abide in me and my words abide in you, what ends up happening?

34:35

Right? You bear fruit. So it's learning more about the love of God. That's right.

34:41

So I want you to obey. Trust me. The greatest work of the kingdom is when people love the king and do his work.

34:46

But you don't do the work of the king, nor do you love him unless you hear of his great works.

34:52

Right? Go read Psalm 125. I mean, it goes through and tells the work of what

34:58

God has done on our behalf for his love endures forever, for his love endures forever. Twenty -six verses of it, right? It's glorious, but it's emphasizing the love of God and the work of God so that we might then worship

35:09

God. But we reverse those, Justin, and we emphasize the worshiping of God to the point where, like John, you guys aren't guilting and shaming and causing fear if I don't worship him.

35:20

If you're not worshiping him, can I just quote one more verse, 2 Peter 1 .9, you've forgotten his love that he cleansed you.

35:28

That's what you forgot. A lot of times when people raise the objection, well, like you guys are not applying enough or when people are studying their scripture and they feel the need to apply a bunch of things from any given verse.

35:44

I think a lot of times what's going on is this. We are so conditioned to think about application. Let's talk about application toward obedience, right?

35:52

We're so prone to think about it in this very complicated way. You mentioned simplicity earlier.

35:58

I'm going to double down. Take sexual purity or take anger.

36:04

Those are low -hanging fruit. I mean, we all battle this stuff, right? So we're prone to think about it.

36:10

We need application in preaching pertaining to sexual purity or anger where you extrapolate out seventeen principles on what that looks like or what that means.

36:19

That's application. It really isn't that complicated, fam. I was saying this to you earlier.

36:25

All I need is God's law telling me that it is wrong to murder and telling me that it is wrong to commit adultery.

36:31

I need a little bit of clarification on what that means, and then I just need Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chapter 5, where he makes it really clear.

36:40

You've been told in the law, don't murder. I'm telling you, if you're angry toward anybody, you've broken the law. You're told in the law, don't commit adultery.

36:48

I'm telling you, if you lust after someone, you've broken the law. That's all I need. It's like, oh my gosh,

36:54

I haven't done this, and there are so many ways at the level of my mind and at the level of my desire and at the level of my thoughts and feelings and the things that I crave.

37:05

It's like all this stuff is going on, and I'm wrong. I need to fight that and pursue what the Lord says is good.

37:10

It's actually really simple. If the Lord says it's good, I pursue it. If he says it's wrong, I flee from it. Then what do we need?

37:18

You don't need 12 principles on what lust is or 12 principles on what anger is.

37:24

What you need is, here's lust, here's anger. We all understand what these things are. Now you need power.

37:30

You need to be told again who you are in Christ now. You need to be told again about how you've been set free from bondage.

37:37

You need to be reminded again of what awaits you in the new heavens and the new earth and that this God loves you and that Christ gave himself for you when you were his enemy and that this may be difficult today to deny your flesh, but is it worth it?

37:49

That's how we talk, and I think that is a more effective application toward holiness than it could ever be for you or I to get up there and wax eloquent in our own wisdom about what anger and lust are.

38:03

It's not as helpful, but I think we've been conditioned toward one and not the other. Walk by the law and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

38:15

Now walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. So we don't want to fulfill the lust of the flesh, and you described two lusts there, so we don't want to fulfill the lust of the flesh.

38:25

What is the Spirit? Well, he's talking about the third part of the

38:31

God, the Trinity, that lives inside of me. That union I have from him through Christ to the

38:39

Father, if I walk believing in that relationship that he indwells me and empowers me, if I walk by that,

38:47

I'm going to say no to the flesh. What you're telling me you want me to say is fear and tips by means of the flesh to not obey the flesh.

38:56

It doesn't work. He's like, the only way you overpower the flesh is by the means of the Spirit, and the only way that you can walk by the

39:02

Spirit is by the means of the gospel. Who Christ is for you is union in Christ.

39:08

Yeah, what you said is profound. What people want is fear and some wisdom, and here are some tips for good living.

39:16

But what we're saying is walk by the Spirit. Again, Book of Romans, man, it is absolutely plain that what

39:21

Paul primarily means by walking in the Spirit is what you just said. It is you are walking by faith in the

39:27

Lord Jesus Christ and your union with him. You are not seeking to establish your own righteousness.

39:33

That's what it is to walk in the flesh, to trust yourself. So he's saying you walk trusting Christ, united to him vitally by his

39:40

Spirit. That's what it is, and so that's again how we preach and we speak. Last comment from me, and then

39:46

I'm happy if you got a parting shot, John, we'll get with that and then I'll shut it down. Exhortation.

39:53

Brothers, we need to be exhorted in preaching. Amen. We do, but here again is the issue.

39:58

We are conditioned to only view exhortation in one or two ways. The main way that we hear exhortation is rebuke and for us to be corrected in terms of our conduct.

40:12

Like, oh, you exhorted me because you told me that the way that I do A, B, or C is wrong, and I need to do

40:19

A, B, or C different. That's exhortation. Well, again, I've been preaching lately on what it is to walk in the

40:26

Spirit. Man alive, you get into Romans 9 and 10 and you see all of this language about how

40:31

Israel sought to establish a righteousness of their own under the law and they couldn't attain to it, but Gentiles who were not seeking for righteousness were given righteousness.

40:40

And over and over and over again, the language of the hardening, even the partial hardening that has come upon Israel for a time, it's all pertaining to this problem that you're trusting in yourself.

40:51

You're trying to establish your own righteousness. You have missed the point of the law and you have missed the

40:56

Christ. So if I were to stand up in the pulpit, which I've done many times at Covenant Baptist Church, and I were to exhort my people, do not look to yourself in any way.

41:09

Do not. All of the wonderful things that are being produced in and through you, all of the fruit of the

41:15

Holy Spirit even, thank God for it. Be encouraged by it, but don't you dare trust in it.

41:21

You look to Christ alone. That's exhortation, John. I know you agree.

41:26

But we're not conditioned to hear that as exhortation. Put no confidence in the flesh.

41:35

That's a command to do something. That's an exhortation. Yes, do not seek a righteousness of your own that comes from the law.

41:43

That's exhortation. Look to Christ alone who is the righteousness of God for you.

41:49

That's an exhortation. Trust Him. That's an exhortation. You and I absolutely are aiming to exhort our people week over week, but just maybe not the way that folks are conditioned to hearing.

42:01

Yes, two things. We don't preach to pagans. Unfortunately, we preach to people. That's contrary to many evangelicals' opinions and thoughts.

42:11

We're not actually preaching to the non -believer. We're preaching to the saints. That's right. And the moral value that most people have in our congregations, they know what's right and wrong.

42:21

We might have to add some clarity here and there like, hey, sex before marriage is wrong and homosexuality is wrong. But for the most part, people know this.

42:27

The question is, how are they going to do this? And so going back to, we're doing a work for the King. Christ has sent us out to make disciples of the nations.

42:36

And Paul says, when you do this, going back to Ephesians 6, when you do this, you're going to get shot at. You're going to get attacked.

42:42

So how do you withstand the attacks against your flesh and your soul? He says in Ephesians 6, stand in the strength of the

42:49

Lord and in His might. And what is the strength of the Lord and His might? It's Christ for you. That's the armor.

42:56

Christ for you in all of life. Christ for you. Salvation, shield, all of it. And so this is when we preach

43:02

Scripture. We're going to point to, hey, here's what you need to be doing. But as Scripture has done 95 % of the time, here's how it's going to be done.

43:12

Look at what God has done for you. By faith, trust in His power. Now obey. By faith, trust in His work.

43:19

It's sufficient. Now obey. The work is always in light of who Christ is and what

43:24

He has done. It is not to gain or to maintain. It's always,

43:29

He is sufficient. I have the sufficiency. Therefore, now I obey. And it's going to sound different.

43:36

Pietistic preaching is very much geared on, you must obey or else you aren't legit. We're reading both

43:43

Ephesians and Peter as examples. Those are two. And Romans. And it says you are legit by faith, therefore obey.

43:51

How then shall we live? And that's the way that we handle that. I begin

43:56

Romans 12 this coming Sunday in God's prominence. I'm super geeked about it.

44:02

I'm ready to do it and can't wait to talk about how we live together as a church in light of all these wonderful things.

44:08

And in light of, like you said, Christ for us. Well, we hope that this conversation has been good for you and maybe clarifying in some ways and giving you some categories that you didn't have before, perhaps, to think about exhortation and obedience and application of Scripture and how to read your

44:25

Bible. There's obviously a lot more that we could have said, and this episode is already running on the longer side as it stands.

44:31

Maybe we'll have to continue this conversation down the road, John. I trust that we will, should the Lord tarry and He gives us life.

44:37

Anyway, we hope that our Lord returns and that maybe this podcast doesn't even air and maybe this potential event next year doesn't even occur.

44:45

All of those things. But we trust God with the timing of all of those events. And should the

44:50

Lord tarry, we'll be back with you again next week. Continue to trust Christ. Don't seek to establish your own righteousness. Look to Jesus alone.

44:56

Find rest in Him and be comforted that He loves you and that He has prayed to the

45:02

Father that you'll be with Him where He is forever. We'll leave you with that. And by all means, obey your God. Amen.