Where Is Jesus in My Suffering? (w/ Mike Abendroth) | Theocast

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It seems like today, if you are not suffering with some kind of ailment or cancer, you know someone who is, or had a family member or a friend who have died because of it.

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It is a painful experience to watch someone lose their life and wither away. And at times our faith is crushed and our assurance is called into question.

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Where is Jesus in all of this suffering? Today, we've had the privilege of having on with us a special guest,

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Mike Ebendroth, who's recently written a book about this experience from his own perspective.

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We know this will be encouraging for you. Please stay tuned. And if you get an opportunity to purchase the book, we would highly recommend it.

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Stay tuned. If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word. It's called pietism. You ever felt like the

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Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy? That you wake up worrying about how well you're gonna perform instead of thinking about what

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Christ has done for you? It's dread versus joy, really. That's pietism. Pietism causes

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Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope, not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

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And we have a little book for you. It's free. We want you to download it. And we're gonna explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism.

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Reform theology, really. How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when

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Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like? You can download it on our website.

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Just go to theocast .org. Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

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Conversations about the Christian life from a reformed pastoral and confessional perspective. Your hosts today are

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Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina. And I'm Jon Moffitt. I'm the pastor of Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

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Justin, it's good to be recording. It's been a couple of weeks, so it's good to be back. And I'm glad that you're healthy and upright.

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I'll just leave that there. If you decide to talk about that, it's up to you. We can maybe elaborate on that more in a minute. Okay. If you are new to Theocast, we're glad that you're here.

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The only announcement I have is that GRN is right around the corner. It's probably a week away or two weeks away.

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I should probably check the date. But you can - About a week away by the time this releases. That's right. You can still register to come.

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It's our annual conference where Justin and I and a couple of the other board members will be speaking on the power of the means of grace.

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Why does the church trust in the spiritual power of preaching, teaching, fellowship, singing, prayer?

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All of those are essential to the faith and life of a believer. And we're gonna be doing lectures and sermons on that.

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So you can register. It's $20 suggested donation. If you can't afford that, then just show up. We'd love to have you. It's in Nashville, Tennessee.

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Today, we have a special guest with us. And he has become a dear friend of mine for many, many years, and of Justin as well.

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And literally, Justin and I were just talking about how thankful we were for Mike. And he had just had a book come out.

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We're like, what a great excuse to bring him onto the podcast one more time to talk about something that is relevant not only to his life, but to many, many of you that are listening.

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For those of you that don't know, Mike has been pastoring the same church since 1997. And he has been faithfully preaching the gospel there soon to retire.

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I'll let you talk about that in a moment. But he's been the pastor of Bethlehem, not retire from preaching the gospel, but maybe from receiving a paycheck to do so.

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But he's been the pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church. Bethlehem Bible Church. Sorry, Bible. I am so,

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I am so sorry. That could be very confusing to the listener. My goodness. Bible Church.

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And he's been on the podcast before. Now we're gonna talk about final justification. You keep going down that road. I'm starting the intro over.

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Anyways, we're thankful that Mike Abendroth is here. And for those of you that don't know who Mike is, he also has other ministries that he's involved in.

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One of them is No Compromised Radio. And that title means he does not compromise on the gospel.

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It is always centered on Christ. And he will not, as Paul says, be ashamed of it.

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So it's worth listening to. If you've not listened to NoCo Radio, you should do so. So Justin.

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Well, first of all, Mike, it's good to have you here. I'll let you speak. And then Justin will let you bring us into the topic. How considerate of John to let you talk,

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Mike. I think we should talk in alphabetical order is what we should do, starting with last names. There you go.

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I'm in trouble. Guys, I'm super glad, A, for your ministry, heralding forth good news.

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As some have said, God had only one son and he made him a preacher. And so then to be around other preachers, it always warms my heart.

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And so many preachers talk about so many things, but for you men, it just, it always boils down to and is condensed to how does this relate to the

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Lord Jesus? And so I'm really glad for Theocast. I regularly see online, Theocast has helped me.

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It's encouraged me. It has given me assurance to learn about the Lord. And then of course, my flesh wants to say, well, what about NoCompromise Radio?

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Don't I help too? And in the old days with NoCompromise, it was there's so many compromisers,

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I don't want to compromise. And while that's true, the discernment ministry has changed into something else.

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And that is, we want to talk about the Lord Jesus. And so now I say, and John, you rescued it as well.

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Can you imagine there's a person who lived on this earth who never compromised and who said, not because he was a lunatic, but because it's true,

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I always do what's pleasing to the Father. And so like Theocast, the number one thing we want to talk about on NoCompromise Radio is the person and work of Christ, not just as benefits.

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We love forgiveness, justification, sanctification, redemption, that's wonderful to talk about, but we don't want to separate those benefits from the benefactor or the person of Jesus.

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And so thank you, man, for your ministry. I appreciate you. Mike, now, not only did you tee up final justification, well,

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John did that, but then now I want to talk about the marrow controversy because what you just said just now is literally straight out of the whole

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Christ and some of Sinclair Ferguson's observations about not divorcing and separating the person of Christ from his benefits.

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And it is through our union with Christ by faith that everything that is his becomes ours. Yeah, amen. Yeah. And he becomes ours.

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I'm preaching through the gospel of Jesus according to Luke. And I say to the folks almost every single

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Sunday, we're in chapter four, for instance, or chapter five with the leper and the paralytic and the sins forgiven.

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And why are we taking so much time? I mean, can't we just make a beeline to the cross? Can't we set our face like Flint to the cross and get there in chapter 23?

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Well, of course we're getting there and so is Jesus, but we're learning about the person of Jesus on the way there.

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So we can understand what it's like to have a friend who sticks closer than a brother. What's it like to have the

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Jesus who's gentle and lowly? What's it like when Jesus meets someone who wants to add works to grace?

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How does he act there? But I love the gospels because I get to know who the savior is. And I think it was

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J .I. Packer who said, most young theologians run straight to Romans and Galatians for these doctrinal truths.

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Yes and amen, barely, barely. But he said the real theologians make sure they know who gives the benefits and that who is the

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Lord Jesus found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And so make sure we don't forget the gospels. All right, man, this is just being tempted to go here, there and everywhere.

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I can't tell you how many times I've had that conversation, Mike, with people because people always, when you're a pastor or you're a podcaster, people, well -meaning, sincere

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Christians are like, I wanna understand God's word better. I wanna know the Lord more.

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I wanna know the things of God in a deeper way. Can you help me? How do you, Justin, John, Mike, how do you go about reading scripture or studying the things of God?

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And one of the things I often say is that generally whatever I'm reading biblically, I'm almost always reading in the gospels for this very reason.

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I don't know, nobody necessarily told me to do it, but I think from my own Christian experience, exactly what you just said, there's something about reading of Jesus and putting myself there with him and the things that he's saying, he's saying them to me.

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He's saying them to you, in particular, to observe how he interacts with people who know they need him and how he invites,

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I often think about the woman who was bleeding for 12 years and how Jesus stops the whole procession on the way to Jairus's house and he wants to have the interchange with her.

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Who touched me? And she comes to him trembling and tells him everything. And then he says, daughter, your faith has saved you.

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It's like this is what does our souls well. Doctrine is wonderful, amen.

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And it is the person of Jesus Christ, who he is for us and who we are to him that carries the day so often.

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Which maybe is a decent segue into our conversation that we plan to have today. So like John said,

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Mike wrote a book and that's a good excuse, a good reason to have him on the podcast. He's a friend and has been a help to both of us and so it's a joy to have him.

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Mike, you wrote a book called Cancer Is Not Your Shepherd and I'll let you speak here in just a minute as to exactly why you have written this when you have.

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But we're not gonna just talk about cancer today, though inevitably that will come up. We're gonna be talking about a number of things.

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Particularly, we wanna try to talk about the experience of suffering and maybe put some words to the things that many of you who are listening to this may be going through.

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Whether it's cancer or some other kind of affliction, there are all kinds of doubts and wrestlings and thoughts that arise in our minds and hearts when we're going through hard times.

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So we're gonna talk about that and we may, we'll see. We might try to expose some of the foolishness of what is often called a theology of glory and talk about why it just doesn't work in this life, this side of the resurrection.

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So there are a number of good things ahead, we trust. But Mike, I wanna turn it over to you first because we're,

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I don't know, seven, eight, nine minutes in. You've gotten to speak a little bit, but we wanna be gracious hosts and let you talk a little bit more.

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Mike, why don't you maybe, however you see fit to lead off with this, your book released recently.

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I've read it, it was a tremendous blessing to me. We'll get into that, I know. I know many have been helped by it. I've seen people's testimonies online as well and praise the

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Lord for your work on this. But why don't you, for people that aren't familiar, why don't you give them a little bit of background and backfill as to what occasion this book and what you were wanting to accomplish in writing it?

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Sure, thanks, Justin. I went to the hospital one day knowing that I had leukemia and it was my first round of blood tests and everything else.

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And so you park at the cancer hospital in downtown Boston and you go to the second floor and you give blood to start for all the blood tests.

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And there's probably 60 people in there. And they were kind of matched up in twos. And there was a caregiver slash spouse, daughter, husband.

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And then there was the person that looked gray or bald or had the little tag on that identified them as a patient.

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And the common denominator in both of their eyes, the helper, the loved one and the cancer patient is they looked afraid, they looked scared.

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And the pastor in me wanted to go up and say to them, oh, I'm a chaplain or I'm a pastor and I wanna comfort you.

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And then I thought, well, my own soul needs comforted as well. And I thought these people are like sheep without a shepherd and their identification right now.

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And sometimes even Christians fall into it instead of I'm a child of God, I'm redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

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There's one who never forsakes me and never leaves me. It turns into identification as I have cancer.

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And the nomenclature even out there today, if people say I'm ADD, I'm OCD, I'm cancer.

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We wouldn't say that, but even as Christians, I have cancer. Cancer is, I'm not identified by cancer.

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I'm identified as I'm a son, union with Christ, Romans six. And so I thought to myself, these people are like sheep without a shepherd and cancer is a bad shepherd.

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It leads, it guides, it directs and blood tests and pills and then other pills to counteract these pills, pet scans, cat scans, a thousand things, but it's a bad shepherd.

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It's as bad as death. Psalm 49, death is the unbeliever's shepherd. So isn't there a good shepherd that protects and pities and provides for, and who really is the

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Lord Jesus? And to be reminded of him in Psalm 23, goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life.

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It seems like this cancer diagnosis is following me, but no goodness and mercy from God is.

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And I always say to people, I love dogs, used to train dogs. My dog died a few years ago, but if I ever get dogs again,

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I'll get two. And I want to name them goodness and mercy because they like the

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Lord is going to follow me all the days of my life. Yeah. That's awesome.

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All right. So that's why, that's why I wrote it. And I thought I'd like to put some theological rebar underneath it to make sure this is not just an emotional book or identify with you, but pointing people back to the one who can help.

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And as Christians, sometimes like Romans 8, we cry out, Abba, Father. That cry is a shriek.

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That cry is a pregnant woman crying out. That cry is I'm in the hospital thinking I'm going to die from COVID 16 days in, and I'm so oxygen deprived.

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I can't read my Bible, but I can lay there and I just say, help, Father, help.

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And that's the cry of a Christian. How do you know you're a Christian? We talk about assurance in many ways.

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Here's one of the ways. It's not the primary way, but it's one of the ways is when you're really, really hurting and doctors can't help and your spouse can't make it right.

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And your children don't have the solution. You cry out, please help me.

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And that's a sign of a Christian. Bro, amen, a hundred percent. Like even thinking about the

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Psalms, some of the words that are contained in the Psalter by the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit make many church going folk very uncomfortable, but the

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Lord has preserved them for us for our benefit. And what's interesting to me is even when the saints are pouring their hearts out to God and expressing disappointment, anger, frustration, you name it, it's very interesting.

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What you just said is entirely true. The fact that the cry of the saints is how long, oh

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Lord, how long is it gonna be like this? Or I'm like, my life is not going well right now.

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I look around and I see all kinds of injustice and suffering and evil, but I'm crying out to the

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God of my salvation. Like you said, that might not be the primary thing that we encourage people with when it comes to bolstering assurance, but the fact that we even have an instinct at all to cry out to the

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Lord, that we see him as sovereign and good, that we think he can do anything about it, that we call upon him as the

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God who is the savior, the redeemer of his people, and that I'm one of those. Man, that's true.

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And praise the Lord for the witness of his word and the fact that here we are thousands of years after these scriptures were written, crying out to him in the same way because we're his, right?

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I mean, amen. I wanna use our time well, and Mike, I wanna maybe cut right to the chase here.

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There are multiple things that we can talk about, but maybe start with this. I think it is common for people who are going through really horrific things like cancer, and you can even talk more specifically if you would like to about the effects of chemotherapy and the kinds of medication that cancer patients are being given and what that does to the human body, what it does to the brain because the psychosomatic union is real.

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We could talk about all that. I think a lot of times people are experiencing things and they look at themselves and they're assessing their lives in the midst of affliction, and they're disappointed in themselves.

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They're concerned. I'm not praying the way I should. I don't feel the way that I should about the things of God.

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I'm not loving my spouse or my children or my neighbor the way that I should. What's your word, what's your encouragement to the

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Christian who's in that place and all kinds of doubts and questions are arising and welling up from within because of what they see in themselves?

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Well, it's insightful, Justin, that you asked the question, and it's very, very typical of the person with cancer or let's be honest, you could have

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MS, you could have a child that has diabetes, anything comes in play. Yeah, the second half of the book,

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I have authors, Puritan authors, who deal with affliction in general, trials. It doesn't even have to be health trials for that matter.

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But when you get a diagnosis like cancer, you have a lot of free time, i .e.

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you're driving to the hospital, you're sitting there with the blood test. Two days in a row, I have an

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IV in for infusions, all day long, 10 hours, and you're just sitting there and you're thinking. And when we're really, really busy, sometimes we don't think of things in the eternal realm as much as we ought to, or we don't think about our relationship with the

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Lord, which we're just busy, take the kids here and hit their pell -mell running around. So when things slow down and you begin to just think, the honest person begins to think, well, you know what,

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I realize I'm not praying as much. I realize the Lord is using this trial to expose things in my life that I don't really like.

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I know I have righteousness from Christ Jesus, but I'd like to respond out of gratitude with some things that are of obedience and holiness, but I don't see those as much as I'd like to.

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So a couple of things if you're in those boats, dear viewers and listeners. My friend, Phil Howard, who's a retired pastor, said to me,

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Mike, don't forget you're taking high powered medicines, chemicals that are in your body. And while you never need to excuse sin and blame it on medicine or blame it on your headache or blame it on you didn't get any sleep, you are taking the medicine and I want you to know it's the medicine.

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He said those four words, they go in my mind over and over. It's the medicine and the medicine can change the way your body works and everything else.

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And we're holistic people. And he said, Mike, just because you don't pray as much as you ought to, you don't maybe have as much joy as you used to, which both of those are true in my life on many occasions.

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He said, you're not backsliding, you're not carnal, you're not losing your salvation. You have side effects.

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I mean, you have GI side effects, you have side effects, headaches, but also just even how it can affect your emotions.

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So those that are listening today, I want you to be reminded that if you have a spouse who has cancer or you have cancer, we need to be extra sympathetic to those folks who are struggling because it is hard when you have an extreme trial to do things well.

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And I think it's the goodness of God to show us our own weaknesses. I am, but really was a lot more a self -righteous person.

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I think I'm less self -righteous than I was, but still struggle with it. I need the Lord and I cannot stand before him even today based on my good works.

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And so to be reminded every single day with cancer. Luther said, I preach against self -righteousness every

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Sunday because we just think that we are. That's why we need the Lord's supper and preaching the means of grace.

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We stand before God based on not our prayer life, not on being good, not on reading scripture.

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We stand before the Lord based on his work, the try and work of God.

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And that even today I'm accepted by God and the beloved and I don't have to perform some way to get him to like me or to love me.

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Matter of fact, I think it's true. Thomas Goodwin talks about the heart of Christ. When you have a child, for instance, that's sick, all of our children are out of the house now, but when they were homesick, my wife would get a special blanket, wrap them up in the couch.

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She called it a nest, make a little nest and special ice cream and attention while she loved the other children, of course, special attention to the hurting one.

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Now, if a sinful mother affected by the fall would do that, what do you think the

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Lord God, the father, we call him father for lots of reasons, extra care, extra love, extra sympathy.

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And so dear Christian, don't think God is somehow judging you. Oh, it may be some discipline involved.

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I don't know about that, it could be, but he's showing extra compassionate love to you. And if you don't pray enough, he knows, right?

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My counseling is like this. I can't believe you just told me that you did this, you did that to the other, how could you? And the sympathetic high priest in Hebrews chapter four, the

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Lord Jesus, here's how he responds. The incarnate one, I know, I know how hard it is.

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I know you're suffering and I'm with you. Hey guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

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So where do you go? How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources? We have started something called the

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Theocast Community and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like -minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there and you can share it and ask questions.

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You can go check it out. The link is in the description below. Yeah, I think it's important to that very point of the idea of the tender father.

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You know, Paul says in Romans, who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Tribulation, distress.

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I mean, cancer is distress, right? Persecution, famine, nakedness, danger or sword.

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Paul writes those things because probably in his own experience or in pastoring people, they have felt like God's love is gone because of what's happening in my situation.

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And I love how Paul says earlier in the previous chapter, he says, in my flesh,

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I have the desire to do what is right. And this is what you're talking about. Like, I want to pray more, I want to do more. But then he says,

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I don't have the capacity to carry it out. And it's in those moments of weakness that we find our biggest strength.

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And this is what I love about your book is that you're constantly pointing people back to extra nose, things that are outside of themselves to find the security, to find their hope.

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Because, you know, Paul says this multiple times, but most powerfully when he is trying to deal with some of his own affliction.

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And God doesn't remove the affliction. And he says, in my weakness is when I find my greatest moments of strength.

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Because what does he have to grasp onto? He says, thanks be to Christ. You know, who saves me from this body of death?

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It's Christ. So it's, especially for those who, you know, and it's hard,

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Mike, you can speak to this sympathetically, but to someone who hasn't, and I know Justin, you can, but to someone who hasn't gone through immense power, you know, not like a week or two weeks, but, you know, long periods of time where you just don't feel right and you're sick and you're in pain, psychologically, it begins to wear on you to the point where, you know,

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I'll let you speak to this, Mike, too, but people begin to question their salvation, you know, because the thoughts, the anger towards the

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Lord or the sometimes just feeling apathetic, like I don't have any joy because we're humans.

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We connect our joy to how we feel. I'm happy, therefore I'm saved. I'm sad, therefore

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I'm not. And it's really dangerous to do this because we aren't saved based upon our experience.

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We're saved upon what Christ accomplished. And it's hard to disconnect those two, but a lot of people struggle there.

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I even received a phone call yesterday, John, from someone in ministry, pastoral ministry, and they have a cancer diagnosis, a terminal diagnosis, and they're struggling not only with that, but also assurance.

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And it's interesting, as I've told people in the past, I get the prostate cancer diagnosis a long time ago, and I think, am

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I really a Christian? And I'm laying there in the hospital one day thinking, if I die, and this was when

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I had COVID, I'm sending the passwords to my wife for the checking account. Here's where the life insurance is.

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Here's what went through my mind. I know God is holy. I know he's a creator. I know

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I'm sinful. And I'm going to soon be in the presence of God. And then what?

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And my only hope is to have a mediator. But then the insidious things start happening.

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I know Jesus is the only savior. I believe that at death, burial, resurrection, I believe in act of obedience. I believe in all these things.

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I've written books about them. But is my faith strong enough? Is my faith good enough?

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And I begin to conflate, as you guys teach excellently, faith and faithfulness.

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How faithful am I? And faithful talks about who I am and subjectively what

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I do. And it comes and goes. And then faith is in the object.

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And so a little faith in the right object. And so pushing people back to the Lord Jesus is what

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I really try to do. I'm laying there thinking, it's a fearful thing to fall in the hands of a living

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God. Am I really a believer? And I remember getting a phone call from Scott Clark.

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And he said, Mike, Jesus loves you. Jesus died for you. Jesus keeps his promises.

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Jesus is alive. You can trust him because he's faithful.

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And it just settled my heart right down to be reminded of those truths. And this is in the midst of COVID when I had no one come into the room except someone to give me a blood draw.

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And I needed to be reminded. Matter of fact, I still have in my possession right here, I keep on my desk, a little note from my son that he snuck in.

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I will never leave you nor forsake you. I need that truth.

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And then I could just fall asleep. And so when you're a Christian and you struggle with cancer, it is very, very difficult because you realize

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I don't do what I want to do, but I'd like to. I think someplace maybe in Romans 7,

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Paul might have a similar thought, but I just want it not to terminate on us.

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I don't want us to go on feelings. Remember Luther said, feelings come and feelings go and feelings are deceiving.

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My warrant is the word of God. Nothing else is worth believing. And when you open the

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Bible from Genesis to Revelation, you see the Lord's goodness. You actually see the Lord's suffering.

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It's actually good to know the Lord suffers because he knows what it's like to be partaking of flesh and blood, sharing in that and suffering.

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We started off talking a minute ago about how the best thing in the world, the best news in the world is that in the gospel, we become, not only does

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Christ become ours, but we become his. And that he's for us and he loves us and he knows us, he sees us, those things, that's exactly what you just spoke to,

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Mike. The benefits of Christ are wonderful, but in the deepest, darkest moments, it's to know that the greatest comfort in life and death is that I belong body and soul to the

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Lord Jesus Christ. And then the question is, okay, well, not am I faithful, but is he faithful?

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And he always is. He always does what's right. He is a God, I mean,

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I'm preaching through Exodus right now and can't wait to get to chapters 33 and 34 when it is my understanding, not only in the burning bush is it the son of God speaking, but when the

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Lord comes in Exodus 34, verse five and stands next to Moses and then proclaims that he is the

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Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. I mean, this is the son of God speaking and this is who he is and we can trust him.

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Like you said, I mean, it's Scott Clark's words to you are exactly what we need to be reminded of. Not to be pointed, this is what we talk about all the time.

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Like, don't point me in on me, man. I got nothing in here. I got nowhere to stand. If I'm gonna look within or if I'm gonna look to any fruit that I've borne by God's grace,

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I mean, wrought of the Holy Spirit, but it's imperfect. And the only thing that can deal with the verities of my soul in the darkest of the night is that I have belonged to Jesus Christ and that he will, not that I will never fail him because I have many times over, but that he will never fail me.

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And that he has prayed that I would be with him where he is forever and he's told me that he's going to prepare a place for me and he wouldn't tell me that if it wasn't true.

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Amen. Justin, what if Scott would have called me and said, Mike, are you praying enough? Are you evangelizing the nurses enough?

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I mean, I tried to. Right, how's your time in the word, bro? You know, that kind of stuff.

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I couldn't even read. Right, I know you said that. Yeah, I could put the phone app on the Bible and have it read to me, but I couldn't really process those thoughts because I was so oxygen deprived.

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And so is there any help outside of me? Amen. Amen. Well, and that's what's so important to understand is that it's interesting, the concept of faith is something that still

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I wrestle with every single day, thinking about the idea of what faith is, right?

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Because we put faith in a lot of things and we're told, you know, Peter says, blessed are you who believe and do not see and have not seen, right?

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And that's a powerful thing for Peter to say, because that's exactly what,

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Mike, you're talking about. You're putting your faith in a person to care for you, to comfort you and to save you and you have not seen him.

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And that's important to reflect on at times because we so badly want our relationship to God to be transactional so that we can have some measure of like,

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I'm good because of what I have done. And we do this, unfortunately, in all of our relationships, you know, all three of us guys here, you know, we've learned how to take and give and care for one another, but there is a limit to our relationships where there is a moment where we'll have to cut it off.

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It's like, man, you're toxic, right? And what's important to understand is that our relationship to God is not ever based on transaction.

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And so in our weakest and worst moments, we have to remember that it's God's grace that saved us.

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This is Galatians three, and it's God's grace that carries us through. When we're doing great and we're obeying him and we're loving him and we're loving others.

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And it's the same grace when we're struggling and we're failing. And I love how Hebrews four says, when you need grace and mercy, you come busting through the doors of the throne room, asking for it.

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You don't first clean your act up. You come as a dirty, wicked, evil sinner to receive the very cleansing and to receive the new dose of his love because you're in need of it.

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And for those of you that are suffering and your body's just betraying you and you can feel like, man, there's nothing about me feels right.

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How could God ever even remotely care for me? It's because Christ says, or Paul says, when you were his enemy is when he started the relationship, not when you were good.

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Well, one of the ways we can get things twisted is we can loving doctrine as we do.

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And I don't just mean we, the three of us. I'm talking about the dear listener out there taking all this content in.

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We can twist this sometimes in our minds and hearts and think that Jesus, God the son had to take on flesh and come and suffer and die so that God could love me.

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That's actually backwards. That's right. It's because he loves us that Jesus came.

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So that's the ground is that the Lord loves Mike and the Lord loves John and the

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Lord loves Justin and the Lord loves the listener. And so the plan of God from before the foundation of the world was to redeem through the person and work of God, the son.

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And that's a big deal. I mean, Luther has been quoted a number of times today. Luther said that I've been teaching the

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Bible for at this point, I think 20 years or something. And he said, and yet I find myself all the time going back to this place where I think that there is something that I can bring to the

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Lord on the basis of which he would give me his favor. Like I see this loathsome thing just welling up in my heart and mind all the time.

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We do this. This is just how we're hardwired to think. And there are a number of reasons for that. And that's another conversation for another day which is why we have to be grounded all the time in the eternal love of God that has been showered upon us and the work of Jesus Christ that has accomplished salvation.

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And we are known, we're safe in the beloved. It's the best news in the world.

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There's a radio show here on the weekends and there's not many radio shows that are Christian here in New England, but there's a show years ago, maybe it's still on,

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I don't know, and it's called, Let's Talk About Jesus. And the guy's kind of corny and charismatic and stuff like that.

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And I used to just kind of poo -poo the idea, let's talk about Jesus. And then I thought, that's it.

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Functionally, that's what I want to do. Let's talk about Jesus. And if you ask me to speak at a funeral, a wedding,

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Sunday morning, VPS, Bible study, home study, family worship time, we're going to end up talking about Jesus.

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Exodus 33, Exodus 34. And that's so important because if you were back to Luther again, this was

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Luther hour. If you say to yourself, ask a person a question, the listener can answer this out loud in their cars.

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Is God good? Oh yes, we have a wife, we have taste buds, we have ears for music, we can see the waterfall, we have children, we have fellowship,

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God is good. Well, then I say to you, are you sure? Cancer, murder, rape, famine, pestilence.

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And so Luther said, if you want to dig down and find out if God is good, the only answer can be found in the incarnate son.

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And then you realize, matter of fact, he is good. I'm not going to look at the circumstances.

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I'm not going to look at the world. I'm not going to look at myself. Looking outside of ourselves. And you say, yes, matter of fact,

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Jesus is good. And isn't that what we really need? And by the way, once we know

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God's good, and I don't want to get ahead of you, Justin, for your sermon, but when you boil down and say the goodness of God shows itself, what do you see?

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I am who I am. And I am who I am. Funny, we talk about God using like a verb.

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His name's a verb. I am. I mean, he's that different, but also I will have mercy upon whom

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I'll have mercy. It's the essence of God, who he is. And then we begin to think about that.

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And I start not thinking about myself, right? You can't think about two things at the same time.

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I mean, I can alt tab pretty fast, but one of the things the Lord has done with me and cancer could be any trial.

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And for you listener who has cancer, you have a ministry now. And you have a ministry to other cancer victims.

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You have a ministry to their families. You have a ministry. And all of a sudden when I ministered to other people with cancer,

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I stopped thinking about myself because I'm trying to minister to them and talk to them about Jesus.

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And then I'm hearing about Jesus from my own mouth. And so I talked to a man yesterday and we just talked about Jesus and I was ministered to.

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And so I think, okay, how could I count it all joy when I get diagnosed with cancer?

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If Jesus isn't included in that answer, then there's no joy. Well, the evidence that God is good and that God is graciously inclined to us is not found in my life or in my suffering.

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It's found in Christ's life and it's found in Christ's suffering. That's the evidence, right? And talking to Exodus 33 and four, man, yeah, the goodness of the

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Lord will pass by Moses. I am who I am and all that. And then your mind immediately goes to Mark six.

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Like when the disciples are out on the sea and the boat's being bombarded and Jesus walks by them and his words are, fear not.

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And then in quite literally in the original, I am, right? I mean, it's like, man, this is, it's incredible.

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I mean, we can nerd out on that, but it's so good. I have to interrupt you just for a second, Justin, because when I first was preaching that passage in Mark and he intended to pass them by.

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Well, like he's walking on the water going, hey guys, see you later. And you think, oh, because of Exodus 33 and 34, it all makes sense now.

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Just like Exodus 33 and 34. And here's what the Lord God does. Jesus, the

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Lord God does the exact same thing. I'm going to pass by and you're going to see my glory. It's the best. And his word to them, his first words are, don't be afraid.

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Yeah. I am, right? I mean, my gosh, it's this posture toward us, you know? I mean, even the, you used the word or you said this earlier,

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Mike, I think this is important to pick up on because I trust there are many listeners out there who, if they're going through horrific suffering, they have maybe been told by a pastor or a theologian somewhere that this is the judgment of the

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Lord upon them. You know, and this is a result of some sin they've committed or whatever. I think that's nonsense on so many levels.

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But the thing I want to say to maybe introduce this idea and Mike, you say whatever you'd like, bro. The discipline of the

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Lord, like you said, there may be discipline involved. That's possible. There might be, you know, using other biblical words.

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I mean, this could be chastisement in some way, shape, or form. But here's the thing. The discipline of the

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Lord for His children is not punishment. It's not. It is formative and He has good and holy purposes in it.

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You know, and so even in the midst of affliction, nothing, of course, happens outside of the Lord's sovereign will.

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I mean, even if He's allowing the evil one to afflict us or whatever it may be, the Lord reigns and the

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Lord means to accomplish good things in the lives of His children, even when we don't see it, even when we don't feel that good is being produced.

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There are ways, often, when we look back, we can't read Providence well in the moment. We're gonna get it wrong.

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But oftentimes, we can look backwards and we can look back with the light of Providence shining on our lives and see that the

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Lord was faithful every moment and that He was working good in me that maybe I don't see today, maybe

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I don't feel today. I might not see or feel tomorrow, but it's there. It's true. Mike, what's your word, man?

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I'm mindful of, like, Zach Eswine's wonderful book, Spurgeon's Sorrows, where he quotes Charles Spurgeon a lot.

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And this is pertaining to mental and emotional health, anxiety, depression, and the like. And Spurgeon says so beautifully, dear saint, do not think for one second that the agony of your soul or the dark night that you're experiencing, do not think for one second that that means that you're not

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Christ's, right? What's your word to the person out there that's thinking, man, this is like the

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Lord's angry with me? Well, Justin, first of all, when it comes to people who would say, well, you have cancer because God's judging you or something,

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I try to be kinder as I'm older, but I started taking some

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Muay Thai boxing classes. And so I want to put my boxing gloves on when that comes up.

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I mean, I don't know if this is the discipline of the Lord or not, but I don't even really need to know. I mean, I know Adam's fall and I know consequently,

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I know federal headship with Adam, Stan, et cetera. So how do I work through that?

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And in my mind, here's how I do that. I think to myself, I'm afraid so much about the future.

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I'm fearing the blood test. I'm fearing the next round of chemo. I'm fearing the future. And I've got this frightened attitude.

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And so I say to myself, how can I replace that with something better? And so dear

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Christian, when you're fearing about God's judgment in your life, when you're fearing about the future, cancer,

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I began to think about the fear of the Lord as a beginning of wisdom. And for the Christian, fear isn't servile fear.

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Fear isn't cringing, I've been kicked by my master. I'm a dog and I just cringing.

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It's not the fear of an unbeliever that says, I'm going to be judged one day and fear the one that can cast you into hell.

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It is a different kind of fear. God is still to be feared, but because of our relationship with the

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Father, because now we're sons, and by the way, don't immediately translate that into daughters. Of course, ladies are sons, but remember, ladies, you're sons.

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And by the way, son's got double, don't you want, ladies, don't you want to be called a son to get the double inheritance? Don't immediately translate it into generic sons and daughters.

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But anyway, back to the point. Now my relationship with God is son. So now

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I don't have a servile fear. I have a son's fear, a filial fear, we would call it.

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And here's this kind of fear. My father is so great. Let's use the human illustration of father.

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He protects me, he provides for me, he's wonderful. I want to honor him, live for him, revere him, make his name great.

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And by the way, I know it'll be for my good too. Yes, so now with the heavenly father, how much more?

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So here's my point. Even if it's discipline, and this is my second cancer, and again, almost dying of COVID, I'm sure

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I have a lot of self -righteousness that the Lord is having to hammer out. I sometimes jokingly say, I didn't learn my lesson after the first cancer.

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So I'm a hard -hearted man and I need more help. But even if that is true, and I'm sure some of it is,

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I know that the Lord loves me and cares for me and that he wants my best and he wants my good and he wants me conformed to the son's image and is doing that very thing.

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So if someone said, see, Mike, you're getting judged with this cancer, I would just dismiss it. But I'd also say, even if I am getting disciplined, then

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I'll accept it because nothing the Lord has ever done for me has been bad. Nothing has ever been done from bad motives.

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He knows what he's doing. And the best thing to do when there's the God of the universe is to submit to even his frowning providences and know it's for the good.

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And it took me a long, long time. And his frowning providence hides a smiling face.

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Absolutely, I should have added that. It took me a long time to finally say, Lord, thank you for this cancer.

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I wanted to say it earlier, but it really wasn't from the heart. And the only way you can say thank you for the cancer is to know that God is going to use that cancer and mold me and shape me and produce steadfastness and endurance and help me.

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And so I say to you, if you're listening, the Father knows best and he loves you.

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And if you have cancer, it's not by luck. It's not by chance. It's not by heredity.

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It's not by electrical poles only. It's by God's sovereign will.

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And remember, the sovereign will is a good will. Well, and you said, thank you for cancer.

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What you mean by that is not that cancer is good. Cancer in and of itself is terrible. But what is good is the

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Lord who in and through trial and suffering and affliction and calamity means good for his children.

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That's the miracle of it all, is that the Lord works these things in us. I'll be super brief here because I don't need to go into detail about me.

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But this year has been, in some sense, as a season of affliction for me, a number of health concerns in the early months of the year, persistent, strange symptoms, a lot of tests run to rule out scary things and months of just not knowing if I was okay.

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Recently, I was in a pretty bad cycling accident. The Lord was kind to me to preserve my life, even through that.

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And Mike, so many of the things that you wrote about in the book and so many of the things that you're saying today resonate with me because the

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Lord, I can't see it all clearly right now, but I can look at even the first six months of 2024.

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And the Lord has shown me more of the corruption that remains in my heart. He has shown me more of the foolishness of sin.

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But there have been seasons, it's ebbed and flowed. There have been seasons where I've prayed more because what else do

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I have? There have been seasons where I'm not praying very much. So it's been both.

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There are some mornings that my feet have hit the floor and I've thought, it's just hit different.

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Like, Lord, thank you for sustaining me because the way I felt yesterday, I would not have been shocked if I didn't wake up today.

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Then I'm praying for my daily bread and that I wouldn't borrow tomorrow's trouble and that hits different and I'm thankful.

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Like, Lord, you're teaching me. You're rending things from my hands that I often cling to so tightly.

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And then there are other times when my feet hit the floor and I feel nothing. It's like, what's wrong with me?

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So I'm experiencing all of these things and at the end of the day, like you said, the Lord is doing so many things through our affliction that we might not see right now.

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Maybe we'll see at some point. But I, like you, have concluded that I too am a self -righteous man.

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I'm hard -headed. I'm hard -hearted. I'm OCD, if we can even say that that exists.

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I'm type A. I'm very particular. I concern myself with things that probably don't need to bother me.

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And the Lord has shown me so many things in my own frame that I trust I will be a better husband, a better dad, a better friend, a better pastor because of some of the things that I've gone through even in the last six months.

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That I'll be a gentler, kinder person. That I will, yeah, I'll be wiser and not wig out over things that just really don't need to be wigged out over, if that's even a verb.

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I mean, there's a lot I could say, but the Lord is good, man. And even in the midst of pain and suffering and to know that He's with us and to know that we're loved, to know that we're secure makes all the difference in the world.

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Amen. Amen. Well, I just have one last thought as we bring this to a close. It's something I was thinking about when the two of you guys were talking.

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At times, because we don't allow scripture to form and guide our minds and our hearts about our world,

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Satan does, he's the father of all lies and he does an amazing job at convincing us that we live in a different world.

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The Bible tells us that we live in a world that's in rebellion against Him and a world that's in a rebellion against Him is in chaos and corruption.

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And this is why at times, even in God's mercy, He will use the chaos and the corruption to expose us to the reality of the world that we live in.

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This is why James says, when you're in a trial, you should count it as a joy because God's exposing you to the absolute frailty of this world.

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This world is corrupt and it's dying and it's fading away along with our bodies. And Paul even says this, he goes, the world's groaning and we're groaning.

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And this is why Mike's book is so important because in a world that is collapsing, in a body that is collapsing, the book points you to the hope that you have beyond the grave, beyond the body.

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Satan wants to convince you there's nothing wrong with this world and the reason you're here is because God failed.

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God failed you or you failed God. It's one of the lies that he wants you to believe. And the gospel is the hope that we are rescued from this sinful life and from this corrupted world to a new life with Christ.

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And sometimes we need good, helpful guides. As Paul says, consider how to build one another up.

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Mike, in the mixes of his own suffering, found a way to build you up, dear brother and sister.

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So don't buy one of the books, buy two, buy one for yourself and give one away to another fellow that I'm sure you know or sister that is hurting.

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Mike, thank you so much for being on the podcast, for pointing us back to Christ. In a world that's collapsing, don't anybody ever tell you that this is

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God's design and somehow you messed it up. No, God's design is to make all things new and he has not done that yet.

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He's in the process of doing it. He paid for your sins, he's rescuing the lost and then, and then our hope comes.

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So put your hope in Christ. John and Justin, thank you for having me on. If you don't buy my book, dear listener, please read

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Psalm 130. And maybe I can just land the plane from my side on Psalm 130. John Owen, when he struggled with assurance,

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I mean the veritable John Owen, venerable rather, he struggled with assurance. And somehow I think, oh,

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I kind of like that, that John Owen struggled with assurance. In other words, somebody else has the same problems.

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And he said, my God graciously relieved my spirit by a powerful application of Psalm 130.

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And he said, when I read Psalm 130, my faith shows that God is my great supportment.

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I don't even have to look up the word supportment to realize that the root word is support and I need support and help from God.

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And so dear listener, if you're struggling with anything, including assurance while you have cancer, just read

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Psalm 130 today and I'll read just a few verses from it. Out of the depths, I cry to you, oh

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Lord. Oh Lord, hear my voice. Let your ears be attentive to the voice of my pleas for mercy.

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If you, oh Lord, should mark inequities, oh Lord, who could stand?

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But with you, there is forgiveness that you may be feared. Praise the Lord. Amen. Amen.

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Well, if you want to learn more about Pastor Mike Abendroth and NOCO Radio, you can find more about the notes in the description below.

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If you want to buy his book, you can get it on paperback or Kindle to Amazon. Just type in Cancer Is Not Your Shepherd or type in Mike Abendroth to see all the books that he has available there.

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Thank you, Mike, again for coming on for a longer podcast. It's almost twice as long as normal, but you know what?

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It was worth it. It's always good to talk about Christ. Justin, we're thankful.

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For those of you who don't know that this bike accident happened about two weeks ago, so we're thankful that he's on the podcast with us today.

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It was a phone call I didn't want to receive, but I'm thankful that Lord had mercy on you and he is healing.

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Your bike, on the other hand, probably is not, so we'll leave that there. A bicycle, by the way, for those of you that are wondering.

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All right, guys, thank you for listening and hopefully this is encouraging. Please share this with somebody who's struggling with suffering.

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Let this be a balm to their soul. Lord willing, we're gonna all be around the throne in the next few days, but if we're not, and Christ allows, we'll have another podcast for you here next week.

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God bless. Hey, everyone, before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you, and if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it, but we also need your support, and it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

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So the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.