Whitten Q & A - Ep. 3 - ARE WE IN THE END TIMES?

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Good evening. Sorry, we're a minute or two late We were having some technical difficulties basically
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Our JPEG in the format of the system of the overriding internet 5 .0
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was it working right, but I fixed it. You did. I did. I fixed it. Well tonight.
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It's a good day and I'm excited about doing this and to be quite honest with you if we need to revisit this subject again
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We can do so next week or at a later date because it is
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It is pretty wide. It's it's it's a really big chunk to text or to talk about in prophecy in general
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You know I had someone once asked me well pastor is this allegorical is it literal? Well, that's something we need to get to grips with right off the bat scripture is both allegorical
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Jesus shared a parable, but it's also literal as well, and so to say it's one or the other is intellectual dishonesty so we're going to answer two questions tonight and The first question says this my pastor says there is no rapture is
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That true The second question. I'm sorry The second question is are we in the end times and that was those are the two questions
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So which one y 'all want to talk about first? All right, so that's the first question.
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We're going to answer tonight or try to answer. I should say I don't want to Be too optimistic
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But we're going to try to answer are we in the end times now
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I want you to know we have our beautiful wonderful Ayesha who is monitoring your comments
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And if you have any questions on this topic, please go ahead and type them in the comments and this
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Ayesha Is going to bring those up, and we will try to answer you during this discussion
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Well guys appreciate you being here of course Josiah Shipley and Jeremiah Shipley to the most eminent scholars on the face of the earth and Two young men that I love with all of my heart.
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It is a good day to be alive in Jesus So guys, let's jump into our conversation. Are we in the end times?
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I Think the first question you have to ask it. What do you mean by in time? Yes Well, I think within the context of what they were asking in relation to the pandemic and the economics and the military
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Things going on are we are we in a time that we could expect? Jesus to come back right now
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To answer that well, I don't know there's a short answer to that. Do your best. Do your best
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You have to find what you mean by end times Okay because Jesus and Paul and Peter they make references many times that the day is coming near the day of the
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Lord is fast the day of Lord is approaching and So in a sense, yes, we are
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In a sense, yes, but at the same time Paul also says in the last days There'll be lovers of self lovers of so he makes a distinction
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So there is a distinction there that though we are in the last days that the day of the
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Lord is coming quickly This is not the final day of judgment. This is not the Great White Throne.
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This is not all of those things And we know through scripture that many things have to happen there many prophecies and so forth that need to happen and We have to see these things come
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So the answer is shortly, yes, we're in the last days, but that does not mean that today we need to be expecting
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I think before we before I get into my spiel,
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I think a preface that we need to All be very careful to set in our hearts and our minds before getting in this it's a difference between a doctrine and a theology
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Here's what we mean when we say that guys apart from God is
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Revealed in his word. I think the difference between a doctrine and theology is probably the most important thing a
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Christian teacher can teach somebody Here's why because we have churches split
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Over things that are theological and not doctrinal and Jesus will not be happy with that No, but we also accept and tolerate things that are really sin
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That have doctrinal divide, but we say they're not doctrinally sound So here's what we mean when we say a doctrine a doctrine is a fundamental teaching found in the
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Word of God from Genesis to Revelation it doesn't matter how any of us feel about it. It's what the Bible says and we follow to it
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Theology the study of God is the study that comes from those doctrines.
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Okay, for example God created the world
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That is not up for debate. The Bible says that no I can't look you in the eye and say and he did it in the year 5336
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BC at 7 a .m. Right? That is a study that we've got to look okay genealogies and if I add these years up and I do this so a
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Doctrine is a fundamental teaching a theology is the study of many things with eschatology
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We have some things that we know for sure Jesus Christ is coming back. No, wait a minute. What's eschatology the study of last things?
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So when we said the eschatology the study of last things the study of end times that kind of stuff The Bible says
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Jesus is coming back. That's not up for debate. The Bible says he is returning Exactly when and how and what proceeds in front of that is a study the study of eschatology the study of last things
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So with all that being said are we in the last days? Well in one sense, yes because Once Jesus left the world we were in the last days that last dispensation
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Maranatha Lord Jesus come quickly Paul said right? Peter was very explicit, you know what all that stuff
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But at the same time there's many prophecies. The Bible says you don't know The exact hour no man knows the exact hour and then
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Jesus spends two and a half chapters Saying that these are the signs of things right now, so no man knows the exact hour
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But when you see these things for example rumors of wars I think that's something that we can look around sometimes be like,
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I don't know. He's just wars. There's rumors of wars There's always on the cusp It's hard to go ahead if you will
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And what you said there is very important I think is a very important studies that it says no one knows the day or hour and Sometimes people and this is you know, when this doctor of theology beings people get caught up on is that people want to make day or hour
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Years or decades or like you will have no idea whatsoever But as Josiah just said, but then he gives you a whole bunch of things and second
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Thessalonians He says for it will come like a thief in the night But you my brothers are not one who are asleep in the darkness, but our children of the light
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So it will not take you like a thief in other words He's saying that yeah, no one knows the day or hour and it will come like a thief in the night
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But if you are not asleep, but you are awake and being prepared you will see it approaching
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You'll be as Matthew 24 says like birth pain delay, but you wouldn't see those surrounding effects
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Like I don't know the day or hour, but I know it is approaching to to more directly
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If you're if the questioner is asking do I believe this pandemic is a sick seal You read this and the amount of death that takes place we haven't even scratched the surface
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Guys when I'm not when the Bible says a fourth of the world I literally believe it is a fourth of the world and if you notice this no reason not to believe it
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It says a fourth and then a third Yeah, so I can't do math very great, but I'm pretty sure that's you know
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But I want I want to really directly answer so depends on what you mean by last days and I believe
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Do I believe we're in that stage of the seals? No, I don't I don't But I do want to emphasize something
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Paul said Paul's writing to a pastor and this is Titus chapter 2 Paul wrote three chapters to this pastor and he decided to include this in there.
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This is Titus 2 11 through 14 For the grace of God has appeared
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Bringing salvation for all people training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self -controlled
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Upright and godly lives in this present age comma while we wait
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For the blessed hope the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ We could spend a lot of time
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Listen again who gave himself force to redeem us from all lawlessness and purify for himself a people for his own possessions zealous for good works while we wait
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Now notice while we wait for his return Paul is telling him we are waiting for that return
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Paul is not writing saying well There's no point in waiting because these prophecy must be fulfilled right while we wait and what are you supposed to do?
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Not hide in a bunker While you wait you are living self -controlled
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Upright and godly lives in this present age while we wait for the blessed hope in the appearing of our great
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God and Savior Jesus Christ So are we in the last days in one sense? Yes, because Paul and Peter spoke of the last days in the sense of Jesus could return when he pleases
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Are we in the last days as in the seals are being opened? No, I don't believe so But let me let me say something that I said last week to a brother if These are not the end times
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And my job is to preach the gospel To love my brothers to disciple them and tomorrow loving good works in them right to preach the gospel
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To love my God to disciple my brother and sisters if these are The end times my jobs don't change
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No It's the preach the gospel to love my God and to disciple to promote loving good works my brother and sisters
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My job doesn't change guys. Your job doesn't your job doesn't change when the Bible says be ready
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Be ready for his return guys. It's not talking about because you have anything to offer him Be ready for that return just like the parable with the talents and all the other things that Jesus spoke of being ready
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Saying what did you do with the time that I gave you and none of us knows how much time we have whether that's to Our death or to his return.
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So in the time we have today while it's still called today You're not hard on your hearts, right?
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While we still have that time while we still have this breath We're gonna do everything for God's glory.
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No matter what day or age we think we're in, you know, one of the things You know,
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I I don't know if this will be a good analogy You know if you think of Jesus as the halftime, you know, the first half was
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Everything in the Old Testament. The second half is everything since Jesus died
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Now the problem with that is you have a clock up here But one of the things that I remember is when both of you guys would fight
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I'd be over in the corner and There was no clock I didn't know right when the round was going to end
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I had no idea But I tell you
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I was Encouraging you boys as hard in the first minute as I was in the third minute because I didn't know what the time was
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I had no idea but I knew the fight was going to end I knew that it was going to and I was encouraging you guys to swing
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Until the very end and not to extend the analogy But you may see the signs of okay, they've been getting tired in there for a while You've got to be coming to the end at some point, right?
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You can see those signs right, but you still don't know the time and when the Bible says no man I take that quite literally guys.
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No, absolutely Well, actually when I was reading in Matthew 24, it actually says no man or angel
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Hey, it's not a specific human Nobody but the Father knows and let me let me just step back here and do a little admonishment if you will and once again,
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I don't mean to be I don't mean to be Offensive but I've heard over the years doing the job as a pastor, you know many people
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I've written a book or I wrote a book or I've read a book and if you take the first letter of the second
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Chapter of every third book in the Old Testament and multiply it by six
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There's a secret code that gives us the date of when Jesus is coming back.
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So long as you have the right translation Right. Well the right translation and for $29 .99
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you can buy this book and it'll give you the code Yeah, you know, right. So here's my problem with that Scripture says no man knows so I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt
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Without having to read anything without ever having to talk to anybody. That's doctrinal.
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I can tell you right there No, man, no, so not for debate. It's not it's not and so if anyone starts out saying this
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Hey on May 17th, 1988, make sure you're ready because Jesus is coming back
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You can go ahead and tell them thank you very much for your time quits Huffy break fluid and have a good day because no man knows
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Exactly and you know, I think something that we could all if no man knows
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That does not mean we're supposed to be oblivious to the times, of course, that's not what that means, correct But our job is not to seek a secret countdown clock
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Our job like we reiterated earlier is to be ready and being ready The Bible says while we wait and you may say oh, okay
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Right, but that's not the case at all just like in Hebrews, you know when it talks about our hope is in him
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It's not talking about a wishful thinking we hope in him. Therefore we get to work. We're waiting on him
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Therefore we get to work and on that and this is kind of going a little rabbit trail But I think it's appropriate and that's faith that hope and that faith.
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I like to think of it as a active patience an Active stillness very good.
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That's kind of how I think of it is I am to be in one sense I'm to sit here and to be still in the
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Lord that I am NOT trying to go on my own Understanding my own strength my
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I just need to sit and be still in the Lord, but that stillness does not mean inactivity it's more of a stillness of mind and of heart and activity of hands and And Work And that's what people will kind of get the two mixed up like when are we supposed to be active when it's supposed to be?
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Stillness and the stillness of heart and mind and having peace in the Lord and waiting on him But it's active in our work for the gospel wonderful To give a few more poignant things and maybe some things
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Whoever asked and study on their own to continue and be able to think about this. First off, you know
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You read First Timothy chapter 3 that Jeremiah reference earlier where Paul says in the last days perilous times will come and he mentions a bunch of Things people will be lovers on their own selves and all the stuff
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You're like, well, haven't people always been that way? Mm -hmm, and then the bottom says these people have a form of godliness, but deny its power avoid these people, right?
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So you see things like that happening in What's called the so -called church, right? Couple little poignant things to start, you know when
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Jesus speaks of the gospel Going out to all the world Right. Well, what does that mean?
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Does that mean that every single tongue? Does that mean every single human being on the planet, right? So things like that can help you like, okay.
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What does that mean? When Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple Matthew 24 things like that might be helpful to study also to help you realize what times you think we're in You know if I'm hearing all right, you know
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What I'm hearing is yes, these are the end times because it is the
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Dispensation that God said the fulfillment of Christ has come. He has made an unknown unto us the mystery of his will
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But as far as saying is this the end time as far as we got two weeks left or ten years
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Nobody knows that so yes, we're in the end times because the Bible says we're in the end times
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But to say that we can narrow that down to a year or a decade
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It's it borders on impossibility and maybe the last thing on this when we speak of the dispensations of God revealing his truth
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To his people bits at a time throughout Well, his revelation of Scripture is complete
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Right, whereas when he spoke to Abraham it was not yet in the money right when he spoke to well
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Moses before that when he spoke to You know, even the prophet even Elijah and David it was not complete yet.
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Well now it is correct Well now it is so there is no new Revelation that God is revealing to his church that he has not already revealed in some other form.
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I mean his Bible That is correct, but couldn't both of y 'all also say that there is within this timeframe of world history
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And I mean world history There are some anomalies that have taken place.
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I point you to the 1948 re -establishment of Israel as a nation and you know, we're literally talking about You know a nation that was obliterated their their land was renamed and But God kept saying hey
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You're all going to be a nation again and then in 1948 in a day literally and Isaiah asked this
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Rhetorically, it says can a nation be born in a day? And in one day after Almost 2 ,000 years the nation of Israel became the nation of Israel again
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So it's fair to say that as we look at this, yes, we don't know the exact day but it's also
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I think fair to say that there are anomalies that have happened like the one I mentioned that do give when
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Credence to the fact that man, you know, God is you know, God is warming up the thrones
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You know, he's getting ready to come. Of course. It's the labor pains the birthing pains, right?
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You read the list of Matthew 24 like okay that one. Yes that one. Yes When it says and there will be come great terror and trials that the world has never seen up until now and we'll never see to this point again
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That's that hasn't happened yet. The amount of death and horror and chaos that you got to realize that in the 20th century
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Now granted, yes, this has to do with population and all but in the 20th century more human beings died than the previous 19th century's combined
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Now granted, yes, this has to do with population and all but in the 20th century more human beings died than the previous 19th century's combined Now granted, yes, this has to do with population and all but in the 20th century more human beings died than the previous 19th century's combined
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That is a serious, serious fact And when you take that in consideration and that we're still here that things are still moving forward
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One, God help us for when that day comes But two, I would say yes that there are some anomalies that is an anomaly the sharp, drastic increase in that.
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Yes, it has to do with technology increase. Yes, it has to do with population increase. Yes, but that fact still stands.
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Correct. The anomaly that you brought up, Isaiah 66, 8, is the verse you quoted, can a nation be born in a day?
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It did. No other nation's ever done that. In all of human history, all of human history, no people, and a nation is different than a country.
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Correct. A nation is a people, a country is a sovereign land.
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Land master. A people group destroyed in 70
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AD or something like that, 2 ,000 years almost, 2 ,000 years almost, and then they decide to have the land back.
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Bam. And then, what was it, 15, 20 years later, the fighting wars.
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Right, well, 1948, the War of Independence, and then 1967, and then 1973, and of course the
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Infantata and all that, yet all these nations have come against them, and yet they still stand, and that once again is an anomaly.
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It really is. They've been a nation, a country, the nation of Israel has been a country again for only 72 years.
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That's correct. That's it. That's correct. After thousands of years. And that's part, in my opinion,
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I would say, part of that dispensation that we're coming in, and if I will, for any of you listening, just kind of maybe if I can give it a little more clear of what we mean by the dispensation, and if I can maybe clear that up just a little bit.
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At one point in time, God spoke directly to Adam. Walked with him.
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Walked with him, talked with him. Then he brought these people called judges along, okay?
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And he spoke to his people through the judges, and then he spoke to his people through the prophets. Then he spoke to his people through his son,
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Jesus Christ. Now he spoke to us through his word, the Bible, and this is now this, and this is what
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Josiah was talking about, that the revelation has been complete. The scriptures are now fulfilled. Jesus was the prophet, priest, and king.
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Correct. Correct. And so in that, those dispensations started and ended, and now this is a new dispensation within the church.
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The church was made and created at Pentecost, and so this is now a new dispensation, and so that's, you can kind of see the steps being moved forward.
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It's going along through the track. It's going along, and you can see some of this, and thanks be to God, he gave us this.
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We can see it. We're not ignorant to it. When people say, I've heard so many people say, and this is me personally, well,
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I don't study revelation because it's too complicated. What do they call it? They're paying millennials, so they're all paying out?
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Yeah, and I'm like, one. Oh, wow. One, I mean, it's like when
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Jesus said, whether the one who went and hid his talents in the dirt, he's like, you lazy servant.
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Yeah, yeah. You lazy servant. Right. I have given you my revelation. This is the number one way,
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I'm not gonna say the only, but the number one way for you to know the nature of who
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God is, and you're going to ignore a significant, relevant piece that he put in there?
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You lazy servant. I agree. I wanna, the anomalies you spoke of,
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I mean, they're apparent. Israel should not be in existence right now. Okay, let's just, let's go back.
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For a myriad of reasons. Let's go back real quick. Genesis, you know, 40 through 50. We're talking about a people who should have starved to death because of a famine in the whole world, but because they sold their brother into slavery, and he rose to power in Egypt, and he was an agricultural genius, not on his own account, but because of God.
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Economic genius. He was able to sell food to a tribe of 70 people that was his blood, raise a nation from that, and then he said, and when you plan for evil,
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God planned for good. They go into slavery in that nation that they went to willingly for food so they didn't starve to death.
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And they didn't go back home like they should have. And then they're enslaved for 400 years, then they're let out, almost two million people, they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, bodies dropping, as what
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Leviticus talks about, then finally they make it to the promised land, they're conquests all the way out, they're wiped out, then years later they're taken over by the
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Assyrians and the Babylonians literally displaced them from their homeland. They should not be in existence.
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I agree. At the same time, you know, we see all that, we see anomalies like this.
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I just wanna read one scripture that I referenced earlier, and then we can move on from this.
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This is Matthew 24, and this is what Jesus says after the disciples asked him.
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This is what the disciples asked him. They were going out of the temple, and the disciples point to the buildings on the temple, verse two, he answered them, you will see all these, do you not?
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Truly I say to you, there will not be one stone left on top of another, and not be thrown down. Okay? The disciples ask him, tell us when these things will be, what will the sign of your coming be, and when the end of the age, okay?
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This is what Jesus says, and I'll read it quickly. Many will come saying unto Christ, will lead you astray.
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You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See if you're not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
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Nation will rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pain.
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They will deliver you up to tribulation and push you to death. You will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. Many will fall away and betray one another, hate one another.
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I'll skip down to verse 14, and this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations.
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Then the end will come. So, you know, there's a lot there about this will happen and this is the beginning.
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This will happen, the end is not yet. This will happen, so we see the puzzle pieces falling in place, but we can't pretend that we have the whole puzzle.
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That's what I'm saying. Well, another thing you read from Matthew 24 there, and you were quite correct there in verse three, it actually, it's a three -part question, and if you go through and you look at those three questions and then read the rest of the discourse, it's called the
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Olivet Discourse, of course, because this was
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Jesus' teaching on Mount Olives. That's why it's called the Olivet Discourse, and it really goes on beyond chapter 24.
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It goes into chapter 25, right. But if you look, Jesus answers those questions in a chronological manner in which they were asked.
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And, you know, the disciples, the disciples sitting here, look at this temple, look at this temple, and, you know, because this was the
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Herodian temple, and it just got finished, and then it got destroyed in 70 AD, and Jesus turned around and looked at them and goes, you're looking at this temple?
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And, thank you. Not one stone's left upon another. But, you know, just to clarify this, you know, some people say, well,
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Matthew 24 has already all taken place. In 70 AD. In 70 AD.
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And one of the verses I always ask them about that is verse 21, and I don't wanna get too far into this.
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Sure, sure. But it is worth, as you study, keep an eye, once again, on good harmonics, keep an eye on legitimate history, okay?
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It is true that the temple was burnt down and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah in 70
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AD by the Romans. But here's something where Jesus said. It says, for at that time, now that's a timestamp.
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It says, at that time, there will be a great tribulation. No longer is it just talking about tribulation.
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Now it's a great tribulation. And now listen to this. The kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again.
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And there were quite a few Jews killed. Sure. You know, in Jerusalem, in that siege, in that revolt.
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But not such that never were seen again. Right, I mean, you can only, you only have to walk forward to, you know, the 1930s and 40s.
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And the century. Yeah, I mean, it's crazy to think that all of this in Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70
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AD because that is just not historically accurate. And people forget, like, people only want to point to Hitler, but you still got
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Mao Zedong. You still got Joseph Stalin. I mean, there were more people slaughtered by those two than Hitler ever dreamed of.
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So when people say that's good, what I was saying earlier is they read this, but they want to skip over that verse, or at least the last line of it.
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And slaughterings have been happening for a long time. Thousands and thousands of years.
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Right. And sadly, people are still slaughtered today. Yes. And so that's just...
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But the point is, is that there will come a time where it will reach a crescendo that has never been mirrored in history past nor in history future.
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And that's something to think about. Now, that kind of leads us, if you will, into our next question, because if I'm sitting here listening to you two,
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I'm getting a little nervous here. Great slaughters and famines and pestilence and all these great birth pains.
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So the question is, am I a Christian gonna be here? And that leads us into a great segue into our next question.
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And again, I'll read it. My pastor says there is no rapture. Is this true?
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Now, may I say something before we begin? Please do. One of the things that I want to always do is pay respects to other teachers and pastors, whether they be atheists, whether they be pastors, whether they be agnostics, evolutionists, creationists, whatever.
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Because we can have a discussion and we can even, yes, have a debate, but I don't ever want to get into a place where that debate brings disharmony.
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We can reason together, and when you figure out that I'm right and you're wrong, we can then go out and have a steak dinner.
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But no, really, I just, the context of the question is, my pastor says
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X, is this true? With all due respect, I disagree with your pastor, but I don't want that to become the point that's brought up.
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It's irrelevant what your pastor believes. It's irrelevant what I believe. What's relevant is, what does this say?
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That's what's relevant. So let's, if I could, just change your question just a bit and let's just leave it as, is there a rapture and is it true?
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My short answer is yes, and there are people godlier than me that disagree. Okay. My short answer is yes, and there are people godlier than me that disagree.
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But I would like to say, first off, and I think a lot of dissensions, too harsh of a word, disagreement, will be a confusion of terms.
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Raised from the dead, resurrected, and raptured are not all the same thing.
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I agree. Okay? There are many people raised from the dead in the
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Bible. Lazarus was raised from the dead. The boy with Elijah was raised from the dead. But they were not given a new body.
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Resurrection, when we speak of the resurrection of the dead, that will happen to all who have died, and then rapture is those who are still alive.
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So let me read a couple passages of scripture and let's talk about that. So you're gonna kind of define what a rapture is. Exactly.
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That's a good place to start. So we'll do 1 Thessalonians first. 1 Thessalonians chapter four.
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I'll start in verse 13. But we don't want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep.
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That's dead. That you may not grieve as the others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
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For this we declare to you by word from the Lord that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the
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Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the cry of command and the voice of the archangel and the sound of the trumpet, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
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Amen. Resurrection. Then we who are still alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the
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Lord Jesus in the air and will be with them always with the Lord. So, the rapture, the caught up, the plucking out, if you will, are those who are still alive at the coming of the
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Lord. And I had to do a little study when I saw this would be the question. Same word is what's used in John 14.
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Well, no one will pluck them out of my hand. He will pluck his saints from the surf.
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Those who are alive, he will be caught up in the cloud with them. Now, who's them? The dead in Christ that he had raised first.
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So, that's resurrection. The dead in Christ that were raised and given a new body. Remember, Jesus with his new body, right?
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You know, it's weird because you think about Jesus' body and it is a body. Mary didn't recognize him at first.
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Mary didn't recognize him at first. A couple of days, that's significant. Also, I like to point out that in his resurrected body, he ate fish.
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Amen. Maybe we can eat food. Snake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't eat fish.
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I don't eat snake. But 1 Corinthians 15, if you want to read some of that for yourself, 1
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Corinthians 15 talks a lot about that. That's exactly where I'm at now. But I'll just make sure I said it all right because I got raised to life, okay?
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So, Lazarus was raised to life, okay? Resurrected, given a new body.
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So, when we speak of the resurrection of the dead, that is the dead coming out of the graves at that day and God giving them their new bodies.
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When we speak of the rapture, those are not those who have died. When we speak of the rapture, we are speaking of those who are still alive, who remain at his country.
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Can I draw something? I think some people get confused on this.
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Let me explain to you. First of all, there are only two classes of people. It has nothing to do with skin tone.
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It has nothing to do with culture. Both of those are man -made construct. The only two classes of people are saved and lost, okay?
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The sheep and the goats, the wheat and the tares, whatever analogy you wanna use that are saved and lost.
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But in these two groups, you have to understand that there are the saved that are physically still alive and there are the saved who are physically dead, okay?
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Like we that are sitting here are the alive that are saved. The same thing with the lost.
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There are the lost people that are alive, non -Christians who are physically alive, and then there are lost people whose physical body is dead.
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So when it talks in the passage of Scripture that Josiah just said, the dead in Christ, what it's saying is the people who have physically died who are positionally in Christ, because remember, when you're saved, you are in Christ, positionally.
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So I just wanted to point that out real quick. Right? So we are physically alive.
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The apostle Paul is physically dead, but we are all in Christ Jesus. That's what we're saying.
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That's what we're saying. I wanted to read one more. I'll let Brother Jeremiah talk, because he just referenced. 1 Corinthians 15, very similar.
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This is also written by Paul. Paul says this, and I'll just read the part that I'm referring to. We will all,
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I'm sorry. Hold on, I'll tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed.
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So, and it goes on to speak, whether we are the ones who have died physically before Jesus comes back, or those of us who are still alive at Jesus's calling.
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Okay? We won't all sleep. Not everyone's going to die. There are going to be believers when he comes back, but we will all be changed.
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That's what Paul is getting at. When he speaks of being asleep, right? Of course we know he's referring to death. Even Paul didn't know the exact date of Christ's return.
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He says, you know, we who are still alive. I don't know if that's going to be me or not. Obviously we know it wasn't, but even he didn't know.
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But whether you are alive at his return or you are dead, we will all be changed. Correct. I'd like to point out that, and like,
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I like what you said, that yes, you believe that there are Godly men than us who don't.
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Amen. That this is one of those theologies. This is not doctrine.
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This is theology. Well, the second coming is doctrine. The second coming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. When this is going to happen, the fact that some
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Christians don't believe that this is going to happen right here or right there. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. That doesn't make them lost or ungodly.
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If you go to Revelation chapter three, verse 10, it says this, excuse me one second.
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It says this, since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
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Okay, so it says the hour of trial. That's a specific hour. That's not just general.
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And it's to the whole world. That means that this is the judgment and he will save you from that trial, which means that there is a saving, a rapture of that.
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If you go to Matthew 24, it says this in verse starting in 39.
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And they know nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the son of man.
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Two men will be in the field. One man will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill.
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One will be taken and the other left. I personally, and like you said in the beginning, no disrespect whatsoever.
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I personally don't see how you get around that. I think it is very straightforward and very clear.
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There's gonna be two guys working and the one who's gonna be gone. That's how
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I read that. I read that straightforward as it says. I don't think that's an allegory or metaphor for anything.
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I think it means what it says. And I want, again, because I want people to see where we're coming from.
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The question was asked, is there a rapture? When Paul says we will not all sleep and the New Testament commonly uses the word sleep to talk about people who are dead.
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Jesus with Jairus' daughter, Jairus' daughter. Jesus with Lazarus. He told the disciples,
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Lazarus is asleep. And they're like, okay, so he's getting rest. He goes, no, I mean, he's dead in John chapter 11. That's what
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I mean. When Paul says we will not all die, I have to think that that means we will not all die.
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I don't know. There's no other way to read it. And then it says, we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.
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And then he says it again in Thessalonians. The dead in Christ will rise first. Dead in Christ. Comma, then we who are alive, comma, still remain, will be caught up in the cloud.
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With 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15, yes, I think it's pretty clear along with the Pastor and I said, yes, there's a rapture.
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But when we say rapture, we mean those who are still alive at Christ's return. We are not referring to those who are dead in Christ, those who are physically dead, right?
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We have no advantage over them because they're gonna be raised too. Jesus paid for it all. He paid for your body, mind, soul.
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He's gonna get it all. They get raised first because they're six feet in ground. We have a head start. Okay, okay, that's why they're raised first.
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I think one other thing that's important to point out, especially to Christians, is to understand that the rapture, the calling up of the church, okay, where we're here on earth and God calls us up to be with him and the second coming of Christ are two completely different things.
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The second coming of Christ is where Christ comes back and literally rules for a thousand years here on the earth.
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The rapture is the church goes to him and then after a period of time, the church and Jesus come back.
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So church, don't get those two things confused. And here's the thing. It's okay if some
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Christians say, I don't really believe that. But all Christians believe that Jesus is coming again.
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There's no, there's no, this is a doctrine of absolute truth, okay?
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I don't know any Christians who disagree with that. I don't know any either. If you're a Christian and you don't believe in Christ's return, what is it?
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I don't know. Yeah, what are you looking forward to? You have no hope. You have no hope. So these two are two different things.
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Aisha, did y 'all have anything else? I think, let's see.
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No, I think we're good there. I think we already covered everything. Did we have any questions, Aisha? Oh, really?
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That is surprising. I thought for sure we would be inundated with questions on this.
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It'll be in tomorrow. Yeah, but if anybody does have any questions, I know some people will be watching this at a later time.
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If anyone does have any questions, please submit them. You can go to the public Witten page and you can message that page.
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We check that, and if you have any questions on this topic or any other topic that you would like us to address or answer, please go in there and just let us know and we'll try and get to those.
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Also, if you go on YouTube, we have a Witten Media Ministry.
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This video and along with many others we have already done and will be doing are being posted to that page.
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We ask that you subscribe to that, but if you wanna review this or see anything else that we've talked about or we'll be talking about, you can go there as well to see all these.
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And I also wanna open this up to you. We have done a lot of extensive teaching on this and basically we have a lot of material that we've written over the years about millennial theology and eschatology, the study of those end times.
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If you would like any of that, just simply drop us, I was about to say drop us a line.
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Can you, I didn't make myself. Drop us a line in the mail and we'd be sure to get that to you.
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But no, seriously, you can let us know on the Witten Public Facebook page, hey,
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I would like a copy of any materials about what you were talking tonight and we can send some of those to you.
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And I will say about these notes, I've read just about all of them and what they do and it's really beneficial for everyone to really pay attention to is that it explains each point of view.
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We mainly just talked about one point of view tonight just due to time restraints. There are people who disagree with this and that's fine and they have some valid points.
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There are some, they didn't just come up with it in thin air. So there are some valid points to what they're saying.
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And these notes are much more extensive and it goes and explains each point of view so that you can go and study that on your own.
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One of the things that we try to do is within the realm of theology, of course, not with heresy or lies, but within the realms of theology, there are different points of view.
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There are different ideas and we can still all be brothers and sisters in Christ because we agree on the main doctrines of the word of God.
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But theology, it can be loose. It truly can be. And some person may be, to give you some of the terms, may be an omnilitous.
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And some people may be a pre -tribulational, pre -millennialist. And then there are so many different titles within the theology and that's okay.
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That's okay. But one of the things we try to do here at Whitman is when we teach all points of view and you don't have to believe what the pastor believes.
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I mean, that's just silly. Jeremiah and I have just slightly different viewpoints on the rapture as far as when it will occur.
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We both agree, I think, that it will occur, but we have differing points of view on when it will occur as far as within that tribulational period.
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And that's fine for him to be wrong. So, the point is, guys, is that let's reason, let's study, let's talk, let's discuss because I'll tell you this, the culture here at Whitman is that we wanna learn and we want to disciple.
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And the average slice of the church here at Whitman are extremely well -educated
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Christians who not only understand doctrine, but are able to talk about a host of theology as well.
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So, I encourage you, read other viewpoints within the theology stream and be able to discuss them openly because you know what?
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You might be wrong, I might be wrong. So, that's important, I think, for us to do. And one thing that I hear a lot and I want people to understand is do not discredit or undermine the importance of studying theology.
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Absolutely. And maybe that's a topic we can hit another time, but, I mean, Scripture talks often about defending the gospel and having a reason for the belief of any reason of the hope you have, right?
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Any reason for the hope you have. And so, there's different verses as well, but studying theology is extremely important.
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And I think sometimes, today in the church, we say, well, if you know that Jesus came, died, and loves you, then you're good.
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Yeah, don't worry about it. And I think that, though that is the very pinnacle and cornerstone,
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I agree, but do not undermine or discredit the studying of theology.
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Particularly since the Bible tells you that Jesus loved and died for you also tells you to study the same way. And took the time to write it all.
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I wanted to say this. If there's been any, and look, if we were unclear about something and you want further explanation, we'd be glad to give it.
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And that's what the course inbox is for. But 1 Corinthians 15 is what these two gentlemen were echoing a minute ago.
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Paul tells the church of Corinth, after 14 chapters of writing, let me make sure you got this straight. I want to write to you what's of first importance.
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In the gospel I preach to you that Jesus Christ who came, was died, was crucified, was buried according to the scriptures, according to the scriptures.
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Appeared to Cephas and the other 12, Peter and the other 12, according to the scriptures. He was witnessed by 500 people and he ascended according to the, so you see of first importance is the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that was all according to the scriptures that were fulfilled by the scriptures, right?
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Which means that they were viewing the Old Testament and the New Testament as a fulfillment of the
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Old Testament. That's all God's work. Those right there are what's of first importance. That's where what we're saying, when we said a minute ago, those doctrinal things, if you are a true
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Christian, you believe in those because the Bible tells you those. But if there's things of first importance, we have to believe there's something of second importance.
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Which is still important, but it's not primary essential to the Christian faith is what we're getting at.
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I use the old Stephen Covey thing, a good Mormon. I use the old
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Stephen Covey thing. He was a time management guru and he used to teach, there are things that are important, there are things that are urgent, and there are things that are critical.
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And you know, doctrine is critical, it really is. How you play that doctrine out is urgent and then what does that look like in your daily life?
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Those things might be important, but they're not critical. The word of God says that Jesus Christ's cornerstone, that his death, burial, and resurrection, according to the scriptures, is that centric point of why we're able to sit here today.
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Yeah, yeah, he's Lord, whosoever calls on the name of the Lord. Not just your savior, your
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Lord, those type of things. Kurios, right? Kurios, that's it, yeah. All right, well guys,
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I hope you've enjoyed this. Do you have anything else, Jeremiah? No, no. Josiah, do you have anything? Well, guys,
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I know we have enjoyed this, yes? We had a question. We do have a question, okay, what is the question? Could y 'all explain 1
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Samuel 16, 14? 1 Samuel 16, 14. That's right before 2
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Samuel. Oh, okay, okay, okay. I wonder who it's about. This guy named
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Bob. All right, 1 Samuel, what'd you say, 16, 14? Yes. The Spirit of the
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Lord had left Saul, and the evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him, yeah. So Saul started to say to him, so, so, so, so, so, so, so.
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Okay, are you, when you say explain it, what do you mean by explain?
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I'm gonna take a wild guess here, and I think what you're asking me, or what you're asking is, the
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Holy Spirit left Saul, and then an evil spirit entered in. This question has been posed several times to me over the years, with a lot of people asking it in relation to they feel like the
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Holy Spirit's left them, and they're no longer a Christian, and they're gonna go to hell. Do y 'all see this sorta as that's what they're asking?
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I think when they say, that's it, for those of you who don't have your Bibles with you, the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, the king,
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Saul, and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him. So yeah, I think that's what they're getting at. Y 'all mind if I take this one?
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Go ahead. Well, one of the things you have to understand is, the difference between, once again, the
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Old Testament and the New Testament, is the role that the Holy Spirit plays. Now, you have to understand, back then, back then, the
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Holy Spirit did not dwell with men. In other words, live with men. In other words, right now, 1
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Corinthians 3 .16 says, that the
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Holy Spirit lives with us. We are the temple. Well, back then, they had a temple made with hands, right?
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And the spirit of God, when he would come upon people, it was just for a short time. Like with Samson, you know, the spirit of the
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Lord came upon him, and the spirit of the Lord left. It says that all the time. Every time it says the spirit of the
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Lord came on him, yeah. And the reason why is, because Jesus hadn't gone to the cross yet to make that final payment, to make mankind a suitable dwelling place for the spirit of God.
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So, here we have King Saul. And King Saul, you gotta remember why they chose him as King of Israel, and here's why they chose him.
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You can go back and read. They chose him because he was a head taller than everybody else.
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Good looking. Yeah, he was good looking. Now, I mean, I'm so glad we've matured. Yeah. I'm glad we've matured in politics today, that we have more substantive measures and metrics in which we measure politicians.
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But anyways, Saul, when he started out, he was listening to the Lord, but eventually, Saul began to be silly.
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He began to be stupid. He turned his back on God, and God was sitting there going, hey, son, you best get right.
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And here, God is getting his attention, and he's trying to get his attention, but the spirit of the
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Lord left Saul. And this was at a moment, I believe when he was trying to get
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Saul's attention, Saul would not repent. Saul would not submit. And so the spirit of God moved away.
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And then it says, and here's the second part, an evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him.
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Now, I know that that doesn't sit well with some people to say that God uses evil spirits.
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Listen to me, and I need you to wrap your head around this one, okay? There is nothing in the entire universe, either in the physical world of time, space, and matter, or in the spiritual world, that is not at the behest and the bidding of a sovereign
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God. Okay? There is nothing that thwarts the will of God. There is no plan
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A, no plan B. God used Pharaoh in Egypt. God used Babylon. God used
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Nineveh, right? And he's told Nineveh, I want you to punish the Israelites. You went too far.
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Sorry, I'm gonna punish you now. God uses - Pilate and Herod. Pilate and Herod.
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God uses whom he wants to use, including the demonic horde, or including whoever that because of Saul's disbelief, and because of his refusal to repentance, the spirit of the
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Lord left him, and then God used an evil spirit to torment. Now, when it says torment, it doesn't mean that God was sitting there waterboarding him, okay?
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It was a torment, once again, a chastisement, if you will.
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And God, remember that God is constantly trying to cause his people to turn back to him.
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I mean, that's eventually why he sent Jesus. So, yeah, please do. So, I've been going through the book of James, and James chapter one says, count all joy, my brothers, when you face various trials, knowing that testing of your faith produces endurance.
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And I posed it to those listening to my audience. I was like, if you're a
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Christian, and this is your, I'll pretend like I was naked. You're gonna tell me I should count joy when
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I'm going through depression, when I have an anxiety, when I do this, or when this happened, or I lost so -and -so, but it is all for the returning, as you said, back to the
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Lord. And this is the question I posed. I said, okay, a hardship came into your life, and you didn't listen, and another hardship came into your life.
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If God did not allow that hardship to come into your life, for you to realize him and turn back, how far would you have kept walking?
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Oh, yeah, you'd be gone down the road. How far would you have gone before you realized on your own?
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It wasn't gonna happen. My point is you would never have realized. That's right. That that hardship was allowed and ordered and necessary for you to turn back.
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Because I mean, how long would you have walked before you realized on your own?
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How much scar tissue would you have had, baggage, and? And it's like, Lord warns you, and you didn't listen.
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Lord warns you, and you didn't listen. Like, hey, Lord warned you, you didn't listen, and then finally, you're like, oh
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God, why did you let that happen? It's like, you're the one who's continued to do this.
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You're the one who's continued to walk down the wrong road. You're the one who's turning your back on God. So that when he says, son, then you get, we turn around and get mad at him.
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In a summary, kind of echoing what they said, in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon people of God.
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In the New Testament, he indwells, he lives within them. In fact, you know, you think of in Exodus, you read the
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Ten Commandments, Exodus 20, and then you spend chapters on chapters of them building a tabernacle that God lives in.
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Then you read John 1, 14, it says, and the word became flesh and tabernacled, it's the verb tabernacled among us.
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And then Jesus leaves, and then Pentecost, and the Holy Spirit is indwelling. So God is gonna live on earth, whether through the tabernacle, his son, or through his spirit in the lives of believers.
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So his father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. Well, he's our God and savior. Oh, yeah. It's like this 2, 13.
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Very good. Yeah, God's presence has not left. It came upon Samson, then two chapters later, has to come on again.
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And that's come on again, and he fights the lions and all that stuff. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit lives within us.
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Know you not that you are a temple of God, and the Holy Spirit dwells within you. Correct. And that's one of the things
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I always try to tell pastors and church peoples at different conferences and teachings is that the church, the tabernacle of God is sitting in this room right now.
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That's right. It's not the room. It's not. We are the tabernacle of God. We are the church.
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Literally, you're looking at the church. Yes. It's all believers. No matter who you are or where you are, you can't go to church.
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You are the church. Because that's the Holy Spirit's dwelling place. The Holy Spirit now dwells within believers.
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I hope that answered your question. If you need more clarification, just let us know. We'll be able to do that.
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Guys, we really enjoy answering questions. Please feel free to ask them, and we will answer them in turn.
58:45
Go ahead. Can I finish up with that? Please, yeah. You know, the verse
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I quoted earlier, Genesis 50, 20, whoever asked this question, I want you to go read that verse. It's what
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I quoted earlier. Joseph looks at his brothers who sold him into slavery and said, that whole thing, you planned it for evil, but God planned it for good to bring about this present result, the survival of many people.
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What I told earlier about how the Jewish people should have starved to death, they didn't because Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery and he rose to power and they planned all that for evil, but God planned that for good with no evil intention.
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So nothing happens outside the behest of our sovereign God, but for those of us who love him and are called according to his purpose, it works to the good.
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Even if we don't see it at the good at that time. I have plans for you for good, not of evil, all the days of your life, say the
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Lord. Amen. All right. Was there anything else? If not, well then
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I guess we're good to go. Guys, once again, I want to encourage you, please what brother Jeremiah said, please go to YouTube and subscribe to Witten Media Ministries and ring a bell.
59:57
I'm still not sure what that exactly means, but everybody keeps telling me to say ring a bell.
01:00:04
So when you go and subscribe to YouTube, please ring the bell. Also, please on this
01:00:12
Witten Baptist Church public Facebook page, please like and comment and please share this with others as guys, we're not trying to solicit money or membership.
01:00:28
Guys, the only thing we're trying to do is get the word of God out to people who have the questions. May the
01:00:33
Lord bless you. Do you have any other closing comments to you? Well, may the Lord bless you this evening. I hope you've enjoyed it and we will see you tomorrow morning at 10 30 central time, 10 30 central time and we'll be in Psalms chapter 40,
01:00:48
Psalms chapter 40, tomorrow morning at 10 30. We'll start out with our assistant music minister.
01:00:56
They're the Hunter Wilson. We call him Honey Bunny. He loves that by the way and we'll have a time of worship and praise.
01:01:05
I encourage you to gather your family around your computer or TV screen and praise the
01:01:11
Lord with us and then we will hear from Psalms chapter 40 and then tomorrow night at six o 'clock again central time, brother
01:01:20
Josiah will be leading a Bible study and then Wednesday, brother
01:01:26
Jeremiah will be leading one at 5 30 and then we will have our regular
01:01:31
Bible study time at 7 30. Don't forget also our Women of Witten Ministries is on Thursdays and don't forget our associate pastor, pastor
01:01:43
Benjamin Talley is on every morning at 10 central time and then our wonderful music minister,
01:01:50
Andrew, brother Andrew Cook, he gives various backgrounds and histories to different hymns and it's just something that will, yeah, it just might be something that would give you a word of encouragement.
01:02:02
We're gonna continue to try to encourage our brothers and sisters in Christ and people around the world with these just little tidbits and I hope you take stock in them and I hope you understand that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what men do, we are doing nothing but trying to point you to a sovereign and graceful
01:02:23
God. May God bless you this evening and we will see you tomorrow. Amen.