Witnessing to Mormons: Christology (part 2 of 3)

The Exclusive Way to the Father in John 14

Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line Radio Broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

Your host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 508 -0960. That's 508 -0960.

And now, with today's topic, here's James White. And welcome to the Dividing Line Radio Broadcast. This is Rich Pierce filling in for James White. James is back in New York. We're really kind of hoping to hear from James today.

He is in the process right now, I believe, of picking up his kids at the airport. Yes, take advantage of a little apologetics run out in New York and see if the family can't come up and enjoy a little vacation time.

Very well deserved, I might add. And so we are in the midst of all that, hoping that James will call in during the program today. Thursday night, James debated Robert Syngenis, a Roman Catholic apologist, in the Great Debate IV.

And the Great Debate IV, I think was, it had to be an excellent debate. Everybody involved in it was anticipating a lively time, if you will. And we're hoping to hear a report on that debate. It was on the mass, and we're really hoping that we can get an update on that.

But today's topic, we are focusing on the person and work of Jesus Christ. In John 14, 6, Jesus Christ said, No man comes to the Father but by me. I am the way, the truth, and the life. Now that's a very exclusive statement.

That is, well...

Offensive.

Well, maybe offensive.

Downright offensive, if it's not true.

It is narrow. It says there's only one way, and he's it. And that's just all there is to it. But the question we have to ask today, in today's program, is who is Jesus Christ? We're going to focus on the person and work of Jesus Christ today.

I want to recap a little bit from last week before we get started, though. One of the callers that called in asked a question about the Bible. And the question was, why should I believe in your, and as he put it, in the King James Version of the Bible, over these other scriptures that I've got?

And again, we are focusing on the Mormon Church in these three programs. And one of the things I wish I would have said at the time, and I thought about it later, was that the Bible is fundamental. It is the fundamental document that defines the Christian faith.

You see, we don't know what it means to be a Christian outside the Bible. We don't know about Christianity outside of the Bible. And so it is the foundational documentation for what it means to be a Christian.

And that's what's the most important part of that.

Also, I think it's important that, and we pointed this out last week, that the Mormon, and we're talking about Mormonism, obviously, the Mormon does give a certain amount of authority to the Bible. Now, he wants to draw the line at a certain point, and he sees errors and mistakes in the Bible.

But we need to understand that in this limited scope, Christianity versus Mormonism, we're dealing with a book that both sides give a certain amount of authority to. We give it the ultimate authority, the ultimate rule.

We refer to it as canon for the life of the Christian. But the Mormon does recognize it.

By the way, folks, I am joined today by Mike Munoz again, who has been with us on previous programs. And we are also joined today by Mr. Benny Diaz. He is a former vice president of Alpha Omega Ministries.

He has, oh, a long list of kudos. We could go on and on with them. But I do want to mention here we are having some technical difficulties with our mic 3 that Mike Munoz is talking on, and I want him to swing that mic around.

It's off right now. And bring over this mic that's over here, because that mic, when you talk on it, Mike, it kind of fades in and out. Go ahead and stretch it to yourself a little bit there. I'm going to go ahead and pop it on.

How's that? I think we'll do a lot better with that. The question that we're asking in this series of discussions, it's kind of a round table that we're doing on the dividing line. The question that we're asking is kind of a rhetorical tongue-in-cheek a little bit.

Are Christians Mormons? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints takes great offense when we of the Christian faith deny that members of the Mormon Church are actually Christian. Well, of course we're Christians, the Mormon person says.

I mean, the name of Jesus is even in the name of our church. How can we not be Christians? Since we have answered that question so many times before, we thought it would be interesting to reverse the question.

Perhaps some folks will be able to see the logic of what we're saying if we ask the question, are all Christians Mormons? I imagine that the Mormon Church would take extreme umbrage to my claiming to be a Mormon.

I don't believe that God was once a man. I don't believe in eternal progression. I don't believe in human preexistence. I reject the idea that Jesus has not eternally been God. I don't believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer.

I don't believe in the teachings of the Mormon Church about salvation. I don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, nor do I believe that Gordon B. Hinckley is a prophet. I don't believe that the Book of Mormon is Scripture, nor do I accept the Doctrine and Covenants or the Pearl of Great Price.

In other words, I reject just about every main doctrine of the Mormon Church and believe teachings that are completely different. I believe that there is one true God who has eternally been God. I believe that Jesus has eternally been that God, that Jesus created all things, that salvation is by grace and not works, that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, as is Gordon B. Hinckley, and I accept only the Bible as the Word of God.

But really now, does that make any difference? Can't I still call myself a Mormon? I mean, let's look at all the similarities between a Mormon and me. Mormons love their families. I love mine too. Mormons are moral people.

So am I. Mormons support their church. I do too. Mormons attend their church regularly. They take part in the activities of their church and support their leadership. I do too. In fact, on the outside, I look a lot like a Mormon.

I frequently wear white shirts and dark ties or blue or gray suits. So why can't I be called a Mormon? Well, the answer to that is obvious. I don't believe what the Mormon church teaches, so I can't be a Mormon.

And to represent myself as a Mormon is deceptive and wrong. Anyone can see that simply because one looks like a Mormon does not necessarily mean that one is a Mormon. The exact same thing can be said concerning the Mormon church's claim to be a Christian church.

Does Mormonism believe what Christianity teaches?

No.

Mormons don't believe what Christians believe. So why should they call themselves Christians? Christians believe that there is only one God. Mormons believe that there are many gods. That alone is enough to separate completely Mormonism and Christianity.

Now, it is true some Mormons look a lot like Christians, talk like Christians, act like Christians, etc., etc. But does that make them Christians when they believe the exact opposite of what Christianity teaches?

Of course not. This is why we spend so much time comparing and contrasting the teachings of the Mormon church with that of the Bible, when they are not the Bible and Christianity. Many Mormons actually think that their doctrines are taught in the Bible when they are not.

And many others who are not LDS can be easily confused by the presentation made by the LDS church. These folks may not be aware of the real teachings of the Mormon church, and they may be deceived into thinking that Mormon doctrine is actually Christian doctrine.

When the Mormons present themselves as Christians, they are doing the very same thing as if I were to present myself as a Mormon, and that is deceptive. Now remember, by saying that Mormonism is not Christian, we are not saying that all LDS people are therefore immoral, unkind, mean, or nasty.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. Most Mormons I know personally are kind, moral, sensitive, and very sincere individuals. But simply being kind and sincere, moral and sensitive, does not make you a Christian.

Many Hindus are kind and sincere, but few would call them Christians. The same must be said of the members of the Mormon church. Now I want to go back to our focus for today's program. Who is Jesus Christ?

Now according to the Mormon church, I'm looking at right now, I've got in my hand a pamphlet that was published, this version of it was published in 1976, it was republished in 1972, and it is called, What the Mormons Think of Christ.

And I think folks, if you're Christians out there, Bible-believing Christians, and you've not understood Mormonism that much, this is going to be an enlightening program for you. If you're wanting to reach out to Mormon friends and relatives, and understand how to talk to them and where the real essence of what needs to be said to them is, you're going to hear it today.

Because who Jesus Christ is, is foundational. One of the things I wanted to mention, to the Christian faith, we have a three-fold core of faith. The first issue is the one we dealt with last week, who God is.

That is the very foundation of the faith. If we were to look at this like a structure, the scriptures use that kind of analogy, the analogy of a builder, many times. Who God is, is the very foundation of our faith.

Who Jesus Christ is, is the chief cornerstone of the Christian faith. And what salvation is, represents the structure of that faith. And so those are the three topics we're focusing on over this three-week period, and who Jesus Christ is and where we're going.

You know, Rich, I was just thinking of something, but just to kind of bring what you just said together, in John 17 .3, and this is Jesus speaking, he says, that they may know you, the only true God, in Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

So what you just said, those three foundational things in Christianity, Jesus brings those three together. To know God, is to know Jesus Christ, and that is to have eternal life.

And consequently, it's very important for us to ask that question over and over and over again. Who is Jesus Christ? Because as we look at Mormonism, and we look at the Christian faith, and the foundational beliefs about Christ, we're going to find and discover that the Jesus Christ of Mormonism is quite different, foundationally different, than the Christian faith.

So, big deal. So there's a different Jesus taught in Mormonism. Well, I'm reminded of what our Lord said, where he commended those, and also condemned those. He said, unless you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

We have to have faith in the right Jesus, for a false Jesus cannot provide salvation.

Mormon Claims About Christ as Firstborn Spirit Child

Well, do Christians and Mormons really believe different things about this issue, about who Jesus Christ is, and how they define him? I'm reading from this pamphlet, page 24, What Mormons Think of Christ.

And under the topic of firstborn son of God, I want to read, Christ is the firstborn. Obviously, he did not have this distinction, as pertaining to his birth into mortality, for many millions preceded him in birth upon this earth.

It must not be forgotten, however little the doctrine is known and believed in the Christian world, that all men lived in a premortal estate, before they were born into this world. All were born in the premortal existence as the spirit children of the Father, and Christ was the firstborn spirit child.

And from that day forward, he has had preeminence in all things. So the first and foremost thing, as we get back, right back to what we were talking about last week, the law of eternal progression. And in the preexistence, Jesus Christ is described here as the firstborn son of Elohim, you know, the God that lived on another planet.

According to Orson Pratt, he was redeemed from that other planet, therefore he was once a sinner. He became a God in the law of eternal progression, and he came here, and he began populating or procreating spirit children.

How physical beings can do that, I have no idea, but he began procreating spirit children, and the very first spirit son, I don't know if he had daughters before that, but the first spirit son was Jesus Christ.

And so that's the first and foremost thing that they're saying, is that he is the literal firstborn son of God.

Secondly, well, Rich, just another real quick comment. I think that, not to repeat last week's show, but just what you've read so far drives us back to what is absolutely foundational to Christianity, and that is the concept of monotheism.

Here, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one. There's only one God. In Isaiah 44, God, who is omniscient, says, I know of no other gods. And if you get that foundational issue wrong, then you're going to continue to be wrong when we move on to the issue of Jesus Christ.

So at first step with Jesus Christ, we've already taken a step off the path of what the Bible presents to us about the nature of God.

Absolutely. It's inevitable. I mean, you look at the Mormon teaching about Jesus Christ being one God of many gods. You also find that they teach, clearly, that he is a spirit brother of Lucifer, also known as Satan, and as you said, not begotten here on earth by God the Father, but he was begotten by natural means, with the Father and Mary engaged in relations in order to have Christ, and this is not what we, the Christian faith, hold from what the Bible teaches with regard to the Immaculate Conception, if I'm...

Okay.

Secondly, he is the spirit brother of Lucifer. Now, this is an interesting concept here. The concept that he is actually... What trips me out, and this is why I'm even stuttering, Mormons will refer to Jesus Christ as their elder brother, and this is the thing that usually kind of surprises Christians, is they don't really pick up on it.

There is a great deal of meaning behind that. If you consider the fact that in the Law of Eternal Progression, Jesus Christ is the firstborn spirit child of Elohim, well, that means there's other spirit children.

That's where we came from, folks. That's right. Elohim has had millions and billions of spirit children with his many wives that became goddesses when he came here with them, and he has begat children, and so they literally mean that Jesus is our elder brother when they talk about him in that regard.

And I do want to invite, as we discuss this topic, I want to invite Mormons, I want to invite Bible-believing Christians, call in with your questions as we discuss this. This is a live talk radio program, and we want to hear from you at 508 -0960.

That's 508 -0960. The spirit brother of Lucifer...

Rich, if I may, I think it's important to remember at this point that Scripture teaches, number one, that Jesus was uncreated, but also that Jesus created all other things, and I was going to read a foundational text here, and that's found, if you've got your Bibles handy, in John 1, starting in verse 1, and it says, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now, that's foundational for a couple different things. The phrase, In the beginning, in the Greek, takes us right back to Genesis 1, verse 1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and in the Hebrew, heavens and the earth refer to the entirety of the universe.

Whatever you see, whatever there is, God created it. So, in the beginning, Jesus already was, and the Greek text is very specific. In the beginning, Jesus was already existing. In other words, he existed prior to the beginning of what we understand as matter-time-space existence.

Jesus was already there. He was face-to-face with God, is the idea of the Greek, and he was God. Now, as Christians, we interpret that passage in light of the concept of monotheism found throughout the Scriptures.

And then it goes on in verse 2. All things through him were created, and apart from him, nothing that exists, nothing that has being, came into existence. That's verse 3 of the passage. Benny, you wanted to say something?

Well, you know, Colossians 1 continues that thought and that truth and emphasizes that.

Well, let's hold this thought a second here, guys, because, you know, you bring up an excellent point. Yet, in Mormon thought, and I'm going to reiterate this quotation from last week, when Joseph Smith in the King Follett funeral discourse.

Says,.

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ to be a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a spirit. These three constitute three distinct personages and three gods.

So you have a direct denial of what you're talking about, Mike, and that is that Jesus Christ was that God who did that creating in Genesis. Joseph Smith is saying, no, they're separate gods.

Right, and yet Jesus, in John 5 .58, and this came up, or no, it didn't come up last week, but in John 5 .58, Jesus said that before Abraham was, I am. In the Greek, egoaimi, which mirrors all the I am statements found in Isaiah where Jehovah, in the Old Testament, or Yahweh, depending on how you want to pronounce that, constantly reiterates, I am God.

There is no other. I know of no other. Constantly that monotheism reverberates in the Old Testament. It is assumed by the Hebrew authors of the New Testament. It is found in the New Testament as well.

And in light of that, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And further down in the passage, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The passage is clearly talking about the person of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ as Creator, Not Created Spirit Brother

Well, it's interesting because we're already finding quite the variance between the systems. And I think with this next quotation, we're going to find that the variance goes even further. This is from Gospel Through the Ages by Milton R. Hunter.

And really where he is tapping from as he does these descriptions, you'll ask the question, well, where does this guy get this stuff? Well, he's drawing from the King Follett funeral discourse. This thing, if you read it, folks, is lengthy.

Joseph Smith covered some serious ground and came up with a concept that was so incredibly foreign to what historical Christianity had presented before that.

And I think it's important to remind our listeners that although the King Follett discourse is not one of the standard works, Mormons have admitted, and most Mormons that you will run into will gladly admit that it has become foundational for the church.

It has been repeated and quoted so often by the Mormon prophet, speaking as prophet, that you can't deny that this is foundational to Mormon theology.

Well, here's the quote from Milton R. Hunter, Gospel Through the Ages, page 15. The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer.

Son of the morning, haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind. At the great council, he proposed a new plan of salvation, one which was not past, based on eternal truth.

And so within that quote, we see Jesus Christ talked about as a spirit brother of Lucifer. We have Don in Mesa on the line, and let's go ahead and bring him up with his question. Hi, Don, how are you today?

Just fine. I listened to a couple of minutes last week, and I happened to have it on again, and I noticed you were on, and I just, I'm not sure I understand your concept of God. Last week you talked about Lord in caps, and you know, Lord being Jehovah, and Lord being Elohim.

No, no, God being Elohim.

Okay, God being Elohim.

Right, right. So you have all throughout the Old Testament terms like, and the Lord God said. The personal name for God is Yahweh, or Jehovah, and the description of His being is God.

Now, who do you maintain, according to the Bible, created the earth, or the worlds, really, as the Bibles used to say?

The Lord God.

Which one?

The one true God. There is only one. Yahweh.

Now, what about Elohim? Who is He?

Don, you need to understand, in Scripture, that's the same God. For instance, you heard me refer to the Shema.

Uh-huh.

Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God. Okay, literally, Yahweh is our Elohim.

In other words, you're saying that when Jesus was baptized, the Father said, this is my Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him. Now, who was talking? Should He have said, this is me, in whom I am well pleased?

No.

No.

What He said was right on target. Now we're getting into issues of God's triune nature.

Uh-huh.

And that you have the person of the Father, the person of the Son, and the person of the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up the one being who is God.

One being. So He has to talk about the other. He's one being, but He's talking about somebody else, He thinks.

He's tri-personal. So three persons, one God.

When He says to His disciples, be ye one, even as my Father in Heaven and I are one, how does that work? That's very good English.

That's John Chapter 17, and you need to understand, and I think I could develop this thought if we had time throughout the Gospel of John, that He is referring to one in purpose, one in mission. And see, you need to understand, in the Christian concept of God in the Trinity, the authors of Scripture can go back and forth speaking of Christ's divine nature in one moment, and in the next moment speaking of God's human nature.

I understand that. You know, it's just that I don't, when they say that we don't, and I am a Mormon, that we don't put the Bible as the first, you know, the first book that we do. Real quickly, and I know I'm taking the time here.

Oh, no problem.

But last week you mentioned that, you know, we say that the Bible is, as far as it is translated correctly.

Right.

As an airline pilot, when I fly around to different motels, I pull the Bible out and I find a Gideon Bible, 20 years old, that says, you know, in Christ, in other words, God created the world through Christ, worlds, plural, in 1 Hebrews and 11 Hebrews also.

And then later I noticed that a little retranslation there. Now it becomes world, because people can't comprehend that there are more than one world out there. Then the third one is, now they're using universe.

Now this is a retranslation as far as I'm concerned.

No, not at all. What language was the Bible written in, Don?

Well, it was in Greek.

And the New Testament was in Greek, and the Old Testament was in Hebrew, there's some Aramaic in there. But the point is, is that the King James is a translation of the original language. So what we need to understand as Americans is that God didn't write the Bible in English.

English didn't exist. And all we're talking about is synonyms in language. The meaning hasn't changed. You're simply talking about an updating of the translations. But there's no retranslating or re-modifying or anything like that.

Scholars go right back to the original language for their source, as they translate the Scriptures into our present-day linguistics. That's correct.

And it's amazing how many different words that they've put in there over the last hundred years.

But the meanings do not change.

You ask anybody what world means and what universe means, and you're going to get an entirely different definition of universe.

But Don, let me say something. First of all, on the surface, I agree with you. I accept the Bible as the Word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. And I agree that you can pick up different versions of the Bible and get a different take on it.

But you see, you could also go and you can learn the Hebrew, you can learn the Greek. Or even if you don't learn the Hebrew or the Greek, there are helps out there where you can research terms used in the Bible, research their Greek meanings, and understand the concept there.

Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about. You said, you know, the Bible is just as it has been, and it's been retranslated. There's no question about that.

What do you mean when you say retranslated?

Well, obviously, when they take worlds and then make it world, and then they make it universe, that's different. That means something different to other people.

But in essence, is it not speaking of what the Greek word kosmos would be referring to, where we get the word kosmos?

Well, good, you know, very possible.

Okay, but the point is, is that the...

Don, can I ask just real fast, what verse are you referring to in Hebrews?

Hebrews 1, 2?

It's first, I don't have what scripture's here. It's the first chapter, and then it's also in the 11th chapter when he says the Word through faith created the worlds, plural, worlds. And the only other question I have is when you say Moses spoke to God face-to-face, and Jacob, I believe there's something in there, he spoke to God face-to-face.

Oh, he wrestled with God.

Now, they say that they've never seen God. Nobody can see God. I don't understand where you come from here. I mean, to me, the Bible is very clear. Very clear. When it talks about you must be born of water...

So is it clear when it says that there is only one true God?

Yeah.

Do you believe that there's only one true God, Don?

One true God.

In all of the universe, in all of creation, in anything and everything that is out there.

No, because it doesn't say that.

Yes, it does.

But it does.

It says, I am, my Father and I are one, even as you and I are one.

Isaiah 43, 10.

Isaiah 43, 10. Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord, and beside me there is no Savior. Don, we'd like you to hold on the line if we could. We've got to take a break real quick and we'd like to hope to talk to you a little bit more.

We're going to be back with The Dividing Line right after this. And welcome back to The Dividing Line. My name is Rich Pierce. I am sitting in for Dr. White as he is out in New York gallivanting around.

Actually, I think he's having a little fun today. Perhaps going to see the Statue of Liberty with the kids and other places. They do keep him busy over there so they like to reward him on his days off.

And I guess that's why we haven't heard from him yet. I do know that probably as we speak, I'm looking at the clock, he's probably picking up his kids. They were due in to LaGuardia at 4 .30. And so they're going to have some fun today, well deserved in my mind.

We are talking about the person of Jesus Christ today. And we are talking about the Mormon Church and its teachings regarding the central doctrines of the faith. We have Don on the line with us and we're back for the second half hour of the program.

Don, I believe one of the other questions you had had to do with Moses?

Well, no, I'm just stating that Moses saw God face-to-face in the King James Version that I've seen. And I believe Jacob, something about Jacob also.

Right, Jacob had wrestled with God.

Well, he wrestled with him but also something about face-to-face with him.

I think it's important in the Moses passage, it's not that he saw God face-to-face, but that God spoke to Moses as to a man face-to-face.

It says to me, when I read that, it says he saw him face-to-face. And I still don't understand why someone would have to say, this is my beloved son in who I'm well pleased, hear ye him.

Don, let me read you a passage and I'd like for you to interpret that for us. It's in Isaiah chapter 44, verses 6 and 7. Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts, I am the first, I am the last.

And there is no God besides me. Do not tremble and do not be afraid. Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? Or is there any other rock?

I know of none. Now, even if we want to get away from other universes and other gods that might be out there, even in this universe, according to Mormonism, the Father is a God, Jesus is a God, and the Holy Spirit is a God.

Now, how do you interpret this passage when God, when Jehovah God says, I know of no other God?

Well, I'd interpret that as being that, yes, Jehovah or Yahweh is the God of this earth. However, you know, there's other places in the Bible that says, ye are all gods. And it says that Christ will inherit all that his Father has.

And we can be part of that inheritance.

Well, there's a difference between an inheritance and we're talking about the nature of being here when it comes to God. That's the primary focus here is what is the nature or the essence of what makes God God?

Is he by nature a human being that has been exalted? Or is he, as he says in Hosea 11 .9, for I am God and not man, the Holy One in the midst of thee. Is he a different order of being?

Well, of course he's not man. It's just like the Jehovah Witnesses explained to me the way we talk about baptism for the dead. Well, that means that they're baptizing those who have lost the faith. Instead of the fact that Christ is very explicit about baptism as a necessity. He was baptized himself.

He had no reason to be baptized. He was, other than the fact that he said to fulfill all things.

Correct, Don, but you would admit that baptism is of no use if you believe in a false God. We would both agree that Jehovah Witnesses believe in a false concept of God and a false concept of Christ.

Well, I'm not going to say anything bad about Jehovah Witnesses. I think they're just confused and misconstrued with some of the ideas that they have. The same as I feel that you are. I feel that you have ears and you're not hearing.

You have eyes that you're not seeing. And you're a well-educated man, obviously.

Right, but you really haven't answered my question on how Jehovah God in the Old Testament can say, I know of no other God. Even if you want to limit it to this earth, which the passage doesn't say. You're reading that into the text.

Okay, we both have our presuppositions. I admit that, but if you think that's the idea of the text, you're reading it into the text.

Nowhere in the text does it say.

No, I really do believe that there's possibly people who didn't understand the scriptures. The scribes, the priests, and those who were translating that may have not been able to understand the concept.

Otherwise, why is it in there that it says, ye are all God?

Well, it's not saying that ye are all gods, per se, Don. First of all, Jesus is Well, Mike, you've got the passage there?

Yeah, well, what you're referring to is what Jesus says in John 10. Jesus says, I and the Father are one. The Jews pick up stones because they want to stone him. Jesus says, now, wait a second. I'm paraphrasing, obviously.