Witnessing to Mormons: Soteriology (part 3 of 3)

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Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all

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Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us. Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr.

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White, you can call now by dialing 508 -0960. That's 508 -0960.

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And now, with today's topic, here's James White. And welcome to the Dividing Line. My name is

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Rich Pierce. I'm the president of Alpha and Omega Ministries and I'm sitting in once again for James White as the guest host of the

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Dividing Line today. And I really want to thank James for the opportunity to host the show.

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And I am sitting here today joined from my left by Sean Hahn.

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In front of me is Mr. Mike Porter and Mr. Mike Munoz once again on the show. Thank you for being with us today, gentlemen.

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Welcome to the Dividing Line. Thank you. And I'm sitting here looking at my call screen right now, trying to get it to come up.

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But today's topic is going to be discussing, again, we are discussing the

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Mormon Church. And we are focusing on the central doctrines of the Christian faith and Mormonism and what they have to teach on these areas.

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We have already covered who God is, who Jesus Christ is. But today we are going to be focusing on soteriology.

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Yes, ladies and gentlemen, it's a big word. Soteriology is a fancy theological term for salvation.

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What is salvation? What does it mean to be saved? And how do you get saved?

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How does that come about? Well, that's an important question to be asking.

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And we're going to be covering that. But on the line with me right now from New York City, actually

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I believe he's out on Long Island, is James White. James, welcome to the Dividing Line.

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Well, so that's what it sounds like on the other end of the phone. Yes, it does. We've been having some fun down here.

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You know us. We get together and we love talking theology. Yeah, pretty scary group you have gathered in there.

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As a matter of fact, the ugly factor is pretty high. Thank you.

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Everybody appreciates that. There's a lot of love in this room. Bring some pretty people down there to that show.

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Actually, I just wanted to call in. I need to leave here in about half an hour or so and get down to the third and final debate with Robert Sabin on the

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Trinity this evening. It's going to be really interesting because we're both doing PowerPoint presentations in it.

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It's the first debate I've done where we're going to be doing that kind of thing. So it's going to be interesting.

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Technology comes into apologetics. Yes. Well, actually the computer and the projector have been extremely useful all through the ten different churches

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I've been at here on Long Island over the almost three weeks that I've been gone. So it's been really neat.

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I don't know if you've given any reports as to what's happened. I haven't told you this yet,

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Rich. I know. You never tell me anything. No, we try to keep you as much in the dark as we can. We were thinking we're going to have three new videotapes to offer.

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The mass debate with Robert and Janice, the Muslim debate with Hamza Abdul -Malik, and the

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Oneness debate this evening. But actually we're going to have four because I've decided that we're going to present the best of Arnzen as our fourth tape.

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Anyone who has listened to the preceding year's debates know that Chris Arnzen always begins the debate with about a 20 -minute monologue that rivals anything

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Jay Leno has ever thought of trying to come up with. And he did that again, and that was sadly one of the high points of the evening when we did the debate on the mass.

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Or at least I did the debate on the mass, and Robert and Janice did a debate on eternal security in the book of Hebrews. When you have two different people debating two different things during the same period of time, it gets very confusing, and it's very interesting how that particularly works.

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Now, James, you had shared with me that the give and take during the cross -examination of that debate was an interesting thing.

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It was very interesting. Well, I really would prefer to wait for the tapes to be available so people can hear for themselves, because if I describe it, people go,

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Oh, come on, you're biased or you're being inaccurate. I think it would be best just to put some of the exchanges on the web just by themselves rather than having to listen to a three -hour debate.

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Just put some of those on the web by themselves. They were so interesting. But there were some really good things that did come out of it.

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The statement that he made that we are reminded of our sins in the mass allowed me to focus in upon what a reminder is in the

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New Testament, that the Old Covenant had an anamnesis, a reminder of sins year by year and the repetitive sacrifices.

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In the New Covenant, we have an anamnesis, a reminder or remembrance of our Savior, not of our sins.

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The difference between the God -centered view of salvation and the man -centered view of salvation was very, very plain, despite the fact that everyone that I've talked to who attended it was very disappointed in the behavior of my opponent.

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He has since then, in an unsolicited email, described the crowd as the most rude, obnoxious

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Protestants he'd ever met. Obviously, they did pick up on the attitude he had toward them.

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I don't think he has anyone to blame but himself for that. I know that Chris has always tried to balance out, as best he can, the

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Catholic -Protestant ratio in the audience. How did that measure out this time?

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I'd say about 75 -25 Protestants. Catholics just don't come out to these things.

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Even though Envoy magazine was there, there were Catholic magazines from Long Island that were there.

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There was a lot of promotion in the Wanderer and other Roman Catholic newspapers and magazines and stuff.

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There was a lot of promotion of it, but Catholics just don't come to that type of thing the way that Protestants do that are interested in that kind of an interchange.

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That one's going to be interesting. I don't think, as far as the debate on the mass, it's anywhere near the debate we did with Mitch Pacwa on that subject.

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But it will be a very interesting illustration of Roman Catholic apologetic technique. And then

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Wednesday night was just a wonderful experience, the debate with Mr. Malick on, does the

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New Testament teach the deity of Christ? We had about a 50 -50 audience there. And you'll love this, about five minutes into my opening statement, most of the

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Muslims in the room got up and walked out. Why was that? I know you shared with me some of it. Actually, it was your kids.

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It was prayer time. Your children shared with me. I guess there was a request for a rules change just before the debate.

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Well, actually, they were just wondering when the break was going to be so that Mr. Malick could go pray as well.

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But it was very strange to have this entire group of people just stand up and walk out and go pray someplace.

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It was very, very interesting. But Mr. Malick was a very sharp contrast to my

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Roman Catholic opponent. We stuck to the issues. We stuck to the debate. The subject was very well covered.

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And, in essence, the final conclusion of the debate was, from Mr. Malick's viewpoint, that, yes, the New Testament teaches the deity of Christ.

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We just reject, as not being original, any of the passages that teach the deity of Christ. So any passage

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I bring up, well, that was added in later. Well, can you show me a manuscript that doesn't have it? No, I can't. But it had to have been because, basically, his understanding of the

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New Testament is infallible. So that was a very interesting experience. And the Christians that were there were just absolutely amazed by that and very, very heartened that there was really no argument made whatsoever against the deity of Christ in the

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New Testament at all. And tonight is going to be really unusual because this is the first time debating someone who doesn't have either the infallible magisterium to tell them what to believe or is willing to just simply fill entire sections of the

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New Testament out. I mean, at one point, Mr. Malick, in attempting to deal with the Carmen Christian Philippians 2, 5 through 7, quite literally and seriously said that, well, when he wrote the

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Ephesians, he said that it was the father before whom he bowed his knees, and therefore, quote, he was just fooling with the

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Philippians. Now it's in the theology. I was going to say, you know, one of the pastors came up to me and said, well, you know,

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I was really deeply concerned that you weren't prepared for the just fooling defense. I had not heard that one before.

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So hopefully this evening, Dr. Sabin isn't willing to do what

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Mr. Malick did, of course, and he's not going to do what Mr. Singenist did. We're looking forward to a good debate focused on the doctrine of the

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Trinity and the one that denials the doctrine of the Trinity, specifically his belief that Jesus Christ is

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God, but he is two persons. He is the father and the son. The son is a human being who has been dwelt by the father, and the son is not eternal.

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The son has not eternally been God. The son is just a creature. That's where we're going to be focusing our discussion this evening, using

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PowerPoint presentations, both of us. It should prove to be very interesting. Well, I have to tell you that these gentlemen that are joining me today, we have gotten very excited about the fact that we've been able to do this.

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We really appreciate the opportunity to sit in here and to discuss the

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Mormon Church in your place, but yours are big shoes to fill. There's no doubt about that, and we're looking forward to you being back here with us.

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Well, we'll have to start having you all in so we can have more of these discussions. Well, I'll tell you what, we'd love to get into the priesthood.

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The priesthood is just kind of sitting out there going, let's go get it. Yeah, well, I'm not sure if you all should just automatically mark off the next number of Saturdays, because I've been telling audiences out here that by the time

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I get back next week after you've gone for three weeks, I'm going to spend about ten days sitting in my backyard staring at my dog trying to drive her insane.

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So that's about the highest level of mental activity I'm going to be able to handle for a while. And knowing my dog, it's not going to take much to drive her insane.

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So don't get too comfy with the last week here, because it's going to be rough for me to get back in the swing of things after ten churches, three debates.

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It's been a pretty intense time here, but the Lord's really blessed, and I'm awful glad you guys are doing what you're doing.

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But I've got to go do a debate now, so I'll let you all get back to discussing the doctrine of salvation.

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Well, we will keep you in prayer as you go along with that, and we really appreciate you calling in. And hey, you know, we're here for you, man.

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If you want us to come back and do some more, we're here for you. All righty, guys. Well, I'll be looking forward to hearing what you all have to say when

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I can finally get a time to listen in. And I appreciate y 'all's work. All right.

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Thanks a lot, James. God bless. God bless. You know, Rich, it's interesting what

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James said, because he kind of set us up for today's topic. A man -centered view of salvation versus a

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God -centered view of salvation. Excellent. And that's exactly the point. That's what you're going to find today, folks, as we go through studying what the

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Mormon Church teaches about salvation. And one thing I want to do right up front is

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I want to invite callers, Bible -believing Christians, and specifically we do, as we're doing this series, we would like to talk with Mormon folks who might be listening to this program.

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If you have a different point of view, if you feel we've misrepresented the Mormon Church's teaching about the subject, or maybe you'd like to find or show us where we've missed the boat on understanding what the

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Bible has to say, we would like to invite you to call at 508 -0960. That's 508 -0960.

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And again, today's focus is on salvation. One of the things we need to understand, folks, is you

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Christians out there are sharing with your Mormon friends, relatives, or the missionaries who just come by, and you start talking these terms.

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One of the most frustrating things you're going to find right up front is you feel like you're using the same terms, but you're talking a totally different language.

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And this particular subject is perhaps the chief area of confusion when talking to Mormons.

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The lingo that we use is pretty much all the same. You sit down with a

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Mormon, and you want to ask him the standard questions. Are you saved? Yeah, sure, yeah.

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Have you accepted Jesus? Oh, yeah, hey, Jesus is our elder brother. We talked about that last week.

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Are you going to go to heaven? Are you going to be with God? Well, of course I'm going to go to heaven, yeah. So there's just no doubt in their minds about these things, and you start using these terms, but yet you feel like you're talking about two totally different things.

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And so one of the things we want to do is we want to define our terms today. That's the most important thing when trying to communicate with a

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Mormon is define your terms. When you say salvation, what do you mean when you say that?

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What do they mean when they say that? It's one of the most important points. And I was going to say,

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Rich, that when I'm talking to a Mormon, the first thing I'm going to tell them is, hey, in this discussion, you and I both need to recognize we're going to use the same terms, but we're using two different dictionaries.

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So the greatest act, I think, in clearing up any potential confusion in the conversation is letting them know that we're going to use the same terms, but we have different definitions.

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Absolutely. And one of the first things I want to review here real quick, on our first week here, three weeks ago or two weeks ago, we covered who

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God is. This is the foundation of the Christian faith, and we saw clearly when comparing the

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Christian biblical view of God versus the Mormon view of God that we, in fact, worship two totally different gods.

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Our worship is directed in two totally different manners. When we look at Jesus Christ, who is pivotal, our

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Savior is pivotal to getting to God, Jesus Christ said in John 14 .6,

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and I'll quote it right this week, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the

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Father but by me. A totally exclusive statement. There is no other way to God, no other way to the

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Father, except through Jesus Christ. And he talked about, all through his ministry, the fact that false

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Christ would come. So establishing the true Jesus Christ, by definition, is mission critical here.

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Mike Munoz? And it's important to keep that in mind, Rich, because even if you got the doctrine of the gospel, the idea of the gospel, even if you were to get that right, and yet you still placed your faith, as sincerely as you might be, you still placed your faith in a false

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God, in a false Christ, it can't save you. And that is extremely important.

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We're not going to rehearse everything we've done the last two weeks, but you cannot lose sight of that now that we move on to the doctrine of soteriology.

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Exactly, and the thing is, again, I want to emphasize that last week we established,

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I think very solidly, that we have two totally different Jesuses. When we look at the

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Jesus of the Bible and what the Bible has to say about him, we find that the Mormon Church teaches a totally different definition, a totally different Jesus Christ than the one that the

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Bible teaches. Mike Porter? Well, just following up with that, it seems that we need to remember that it's not just a matter of our opinion that says if you don't believe in exactly who we say

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Jesus Christ is, that you're going to die in your trespasses and sins. Jesus Christ himself says that, he says, unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your trespasses and sins,

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I believe it was John 8, 24. So we need to remember that it is not just simply our opinions, how we feel, it is clearly what

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Jesus Christ demands, and we always need to take that into account. We are accountable to him, it is his demands of salvation, not ours.

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So to ask the question, a question that many Mormons will identify with, what are the quote -unquote doctrines of salvation?

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And I say that, folks, because there is a series of books, a three -part series, written by Joseph Fielding Smith, called

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The Doctrines of Salvation. And when we look at what the LDS Church teaches, we're going to learn some things.

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First and foremost, we need to understand that there are two totally different kinds of salvation.

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One is called general, and the other one is called specific. Let me read some quotes for you.

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First of all, from Mormon Doctrine, page 669. Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone, without obedience to gospel law, consists of the mere fact of being resurrected.

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In this sense, salvation is synonymous with immortality. It is the inseparable connection of body and spirit, so that the resurrected personage lives forever.

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That's the first thing we need to understand, is when you say, you talk about salvation with the Mormon, they're identifying that with simply being resurrected, and guess what?

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Everybody's going to get resurrected. It says in the book of Revelation, after all, every knee will bow and every tongue confess

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Jesus Christ as Lord, right? Absolutely. I think it's also important to understand that when you're discussing this with a

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Mormon, that is salvation by grace. A Mormon will say, yes, we believe in salvation by grace, and that is what they're referring to, that general resurrection, something quite different than what the

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Christian refers to when he speaks of salvation by grace. Well, secondly, we have what's called conditional or individual salvation, and this also comes from Mormon Doctrine, page 669.

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Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace, coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God.

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This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, and receipt of the

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Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation. We discussed on our first week here the idea that in Mormon thought, we're going through a mortal probation here on earth.

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This is all part of the grand design, which is the law of eternal progression.

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We're kind of just passing through here, and our mortal probation is going to determine where we end up when all is said and done.

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Sean? I was just going to make a comment that the most important question that a man or woman could possibly ask is, what must

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I do to be saved? And that's what we're discussing today. And a point I want to make is that all other competing religious expressions or philosophies or worldviews, other than true biblical

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Christianity, are forms of works righteousness. And that is what we're going to get into today, is looking at the fact that the

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Mormon Church teaches a form of works righteousness. In other words, man has to do something himself in order to be saved or to obtain favor with God.

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And that it is only in true biblical Christianity that salvation is of the Lord. Jonah 2 .9.

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Mike Munoz? I think that question that you posed, Sean, is important, because Paul poses, or actually Luke in the book of Acts, with the

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Philippian jailer. And I won't rehearse the whole story, but there was an earthquake. Paul is released from prison.

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The jailer is about to commit suicide. And Paul stops him, and the jailer asks that very question.

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Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And their answer was quite simple. They said, believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

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Now keep that in mind as we start talking about the answer to the Mormon question, what must

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I do to be saved? Because you'll see that a few more elements than simply believe in the

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Lord Jesus are added to that equation. Well, in addition here, I want to quote from just a few pages down from where we've been quoting from in Mormon doctrine, page 671, and understand something.

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When the Christian talks about salvation and what it means to be saved, the end result in a

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Christian's mind is, and bear with me here, folks, this is important, focus on what I'm about to say.

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We're talking about the very best that God has for us. The reward that we receive in heaven, living for eternity in the presence of God, the very best that God has for us.

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In Mormon thought, what I just read, the conditional or individual salvation is the very best that God has in Mormon thought.

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So from Mormon doctrine, page 671, salvation in the celestial kingdom of God, however, is not salvation by grace alone.

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Rather, it is salvation by grace coupled with obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

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Those who gain it are raised in immortality unto eternal life. Immortality comes by grace alone, but those who gain it may find themselves damned in eternity.

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Remember that phrase, because it's very important here. I'm going to talk about it in a minute. Eternal life is the kind of life enjoyed by eternal beings in the celestial kingdom, comes by grace plus obedience.

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And the very opportunity to follow the course of good works, which will lead to that salvation sought by the saints, comes also by the grace of God.

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Now, when I refer to, it said, damned in eternity, those who gain it may find, grace alone, may find themselves damned in eternity, we're not talking about, you know, what's the old

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Baptist preacher always say, you're going to be damned to hell, boy, you know, and all that stuff. What they're talking about is, again, in the context of the law of eternal progression, these beings that they're talking about continually progress.

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Continual progression is the goal. And what happens is, is unless you achieve what

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Bruce R. McConkie is talking about there, then at some point in time, your progression will be stopped.

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You're going to stop progressing. Just like there is a dam holding

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Lake Pleasant in place, or any lake in our area here, there's a dam there.

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That is what they're talking about. They're using the term in that kind of reference. So your progression will be damned, and you will not be able to progress anymore.

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And the biggest thing that they are referring to is, when you talk about the best that God has for us, when you talk about the best they can offer, is the ability to continue to procreate in eternity.

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That is, again, continued progression. Once you become a god, you can continue to progress.

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Now, moving along here, we've talked about the four musts of salvation.

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We've talked about the differences between exaltation and salvation.

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And that is an important point to differentiate when you talk to your Mormon friends, is that when they talk about salvation, start using specific terms like exaltation.

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Now, the application of the atonement of Christ. And we're going to be discussing all these things from a biblical point of view here shortly.

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But when we look at the atonement of Christ, it's really important for us to take a look at what the

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Mormon view of the atonement is. Exactly what does it do for us? Now, we can sit here and debate with Mormons over their viewpoint that the atonement actually began in Gethsemane.

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Their argument there is that Jesus sweat, as it were, great drops of blood.

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And so therefore the atonement began there, and then some Mormon thought that it took place there, or was completed on the cross.

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But the reason for that is that the cross, if you will, is a symbol of shame to the

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Mormon. You'll not find a cross on any Mormon church. You'll not see knowledgeable Mormons wearing crosses around their neck.

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I've actually been ridiculed when I went out to Mason and was passing out tracts by people because I was wearing a cross around my neck.

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And they were like, this is a symbol of shame and ridicule. It's shameful that you wear that. And it's because they see the atonement taking place in Gethsemane, not on the cross.

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And that's a major difference in applying the atonement. Also, let's understand a couple of things about the ramifications of the atonement.

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Jesus Christ, and this is from Marvelous Work and a Wonder, page 98, LeGrand Richards, Elder LeGrand Richards, Jesus Christ redeemed all from the fall.

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He paid the price. He offered himself as a ransom. He atoned for Adam's sin.

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I'm going to emphasize that. He atoned for Adam's sin, leaving us responsible only for our own sins.

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Wow, I'm really appreciative of that. One of our Articles of Faith states, We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression.

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Mike? I think you could follow that up with 2 Nephi 25 -23. And this is, again, in a standard work because we don't want to be misunderstood or accused of not being fair with the

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LDS religion. But it says, For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled.

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It's speaking of the atonement. But then it finishes with this, To be reconciled to God, for we know that it is by grace that we are saved.

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And here's the catch. After all we can do. Wow, wow. Let me read something else here about the atonement that I think really kind of sends the point home.

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One of the things that when Christians refer to the atonement of Jesus Christ, we're talking about something that is all -encompassing.

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It did it, and it did it all. We sing the song, Jesus paid it all. Yet, Mormon Doctrine, page 93,

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President Joseph Fielding Smith has written, Man may commit certain grievous sins according to his light and knowledge that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ.

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If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice for his own life to atone. So as far as in his power lies for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail.

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What he is talking about there, and it goes on, you can read this whole area here where he's discussing blood atonement, is he's actually talking about the fact that in order for atonement to occur for that grievous sin that one may have committed, the individual's own personal blood must be shed.

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He's got to be killed. And folks, Utah is the only state in the Union that still has firing squad as a method of execution in its prisons.

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Well, we're coming up on a break here, and we're going to continue to discuss Mormon salvation here when we come right back with The Dividing Line.

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We're going to focus on what Christians believe. And welcome back to The Dividing Line.

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My name is Rich Pierce. I'm sitting in for James for the last week. Perhaps, I don't know, he's coming back next week, and he's had quite the three -week period here where they have run him around, and he's been doing debates and speaking engagements, et cetera.

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So the possibility exists we might be rounding this crew up one more time for next week. And I'll be honest with you,

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I wouldn't mind sitting around here discussing the priesthood. It's a fascinating subject biblically, but we'll see what happens.

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We are discussing Mormon salvation today and what the Mormon Church teaches about salvation.

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And again, we've gone through now in our first portion of the show, we've covered the basic doctrines of where the

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Mormon Church comes from. And it's a very works -oriented system. And we want to invite callers today.

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We want to hear from you. 508 -0960, 508 -0960. And guess what, folks?

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I'm going to offer a copy of James White's Letters to a Mormon Elder to all of our callers today.

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So our call screeners should get wound up here. If we can get some phone calls in here.

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We're going to get some names and addresses of folks after they're done on the air. And we'll send you a copy of that book today and hopefully be able to help you out in sharing your faith with your

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Mormon friends and relatives. Gentlemen, the big question. Is Christianity any different?

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Is this something that we look at it the same way?

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Is it a matter of working our way to heaven? What about things like James 2 .20, etc., etc.?

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I think the first thing we need to do, gentlemen, is we need to define what Christians believe about salvation.

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And I want to say one thing here. One thing that in our ministry over the years we have found and we've emphasized is oftentimes when you look at that ratio that I talked about three weeks ago about how the

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Baptist Church alone, the ratio ten years ago, was 24 to 1. 24

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Baptists becoming Mormons for every one Mormon that became a Baptist. That ratio is absolutely unacceptable.

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How can we sit back and not do anything about this? Well, the major reason for this is that so many

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Christians, so many believers haven't established that foundation underneath them where they understand what

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Christianity believes and why we believe it. And we need to establish that.

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What is it that we believe about salvation? And why do we believe it? Mike Munoz? I think it's important to let Scripture speak for itself.

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And I'll just read a passage, actually quote a passage that probably a lot of people know, but it's Ephesians 2 .8 and 9.

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For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works that no man should boast.

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And I think that's the big difference. Keep in mind when the Scriptures speak of salvation or being saved, we are, like you mentioned earlier, speaking of that ultimate salvation that God offers.

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There aren't different levels as far as that goes, as far as being saved and spending eternity with God.

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Scripture may speak of different rewards, but it's something totally different than what a Mormon would mean. We're not talking about different levels of heaven.

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We're talking about the ultimate intimate fellowship with God for the rest of eternity.

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And that's what that passage is talking about. It's by grace, through faith, and there's nothing we can do to earn it.

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And I would throw out at the other guys on the panel that the reason for that would be the idea of sin and just how sinful man is.

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Yeah, it is the result of the fall of Adam and Eve that their guilt and their sin is imputed to us.

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In other words, we are by nature the children of wrath as Paul in the book of Ephesians explains in Ephesians 2 -3.

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Just prior to where you read, Mike, it says that here in verse 3, we were by nature the children of wrath, even as the others.

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But then in verse 4, the grace of God begins. It says, But God, who is rich in mercy for his great love, wherewith he loved us even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ.

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This is the sovereign, regenerating, distinguishing grace of God kicking into gear on an individual that is spiritually dead in his sins and is actually hostile toward God.

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He's not neutral. He's not a nice guy that is open to hearing the gospel. He's actually hostile toward God.

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He hates the very things of God. He hates the very holiness of God, the things that we have mentioned. Rich, a minute ago you mentioned how the cross to the

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Mormons is they were ridiculing you out at the temple for wearing a cross, and a text came to my mind in 1

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Corinthians, For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

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And it's a sad thing that the cross of Christ is to those that are perishing foolishness.

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It's a very saddening thing. Okay, but let's break this down a little bit more simpler here. Just in essence, when

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Christians say, I'm saved, or when they talk about getting saved, accepting

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Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, when you talk about this, let's break this down. We've read the scriptures,

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Ephesians 2, 8, and 9 we're familiar with, etc. But really, what does it mean, what goes on when one gets saved?

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What's the most basic way of explaining that? Explain that to us, gentlemen. I think the most basic way of explaining it is to recognize, and it's something we talked about in weeks past, that God is holy, that God is just, that God hates not just the sin, but scripture speaks of God hating the sinner.

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And what it means by that is not that God is this malicious, mean guy up in heaven, but that he will condemn and he will punish sin.

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And that means punishing and condemning the sinner. We are completely unworthy before God. Hence, Jesus Christ steps into our place, the atonement.

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He dies in our place. He lives a perfect life, obedient to the law, in our place.

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Jesus' righteousness is then, and I like to explain it this way, Jesus' righteousness is put in our bank account.

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Our sinfulness is put into Christ's bank account. Christ pays the price.

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He propitiates, and we'll get to that term in a minute. It's a very basic term used in the Bible. What it means is he completely satisfies the

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Father's wrath, and hence, when we stand before God, we don't stand before God in our righteousness, but we stand clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

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That's why God finds us acceptable. And this is done, as far as the believer is concerned, on the basis, this righteousness is given to us on the basis of one thing, and that is faith.

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It's not based upon our, quote -unquote, good works, because we were, again, by nature, children of wrath, even as the rest, and now this faith that we have is actually the gift of God.

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And so we are saved by faith alone because of Christ alone.

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As seen, real quick, a short passage in Romans 3. It says, For all have sinned. So it's a pretty exclusive passage.

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For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That's the problem. We've fallen short of the glory of God, every single human being.

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And then verse 24 says, Being justified. This is a legal term. We're made right because we're given the righteousness, as Mike Munoz said, of Jesus Christ.

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Verse 24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

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Jesus Christ accomplished our salvation on the cross of Calvary. What's that impact when we talk about salvation?

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What's the end result? Once we're saved, once we talk about that salvation, in contrast to three levels of heaven, in contrast to all the different things that we can break that down, the

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Christian view is very different, isn't it, guys? It's a radically different way of looking at eternity.

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What's that like? I think it's completely different. I think that what we're talking about is spending an eternity with God in intimate fellowship with God the

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Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. That's what it means. And it means that none of it, none of it can we take credit for.

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It is a complete work of grace. It is a complete work of the triune

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God. And Sean had pointed this out. Even the faith that we exercise is a gift of God.

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Ephesians 2, 8, and 9. You'll see that in 2 Peter 1, 1. The repentance that we exercise, you'll see in 2

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Timothy, is a gift of God. It is all of grace. We are completely unworthy. Mike Porter?

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Well, I think that there's a couple of things that we should remember. One is that when we are justified by God, one of the most important things that happens is we have peace with God.

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Romans 5, 1 says, Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our

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Lord Jesus Christ. I think it's important for us to remember and keep a very focused point. That is that the holiness of God demands justice of sin.

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The holiness of God demands that sin be atoned for. And we are either going to pay for it by the blood of Jesus Christ or by sin and hell, by death and hell.

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And so the fact that the Bible would tell us that we have peace with God would give us the idea that there is a

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God who has wrath, a God who has anger. And I would say a fierce anger with regards to sin.

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And we can see a number of references to the justice, the wrath of God in Revelation 19. We can see it in Leviticus 10, when

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Nadab and Abihu put unauthorized fire on the altar. They were consumed by God's flames.

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Boy, you know, God kind of takes that worship thing kind of serious, doesn't he? I would say so, something like that.

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It's amazing. But we kind of try to look at God as just this God in heaven, kind of an old man that kind of winks at us.

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The recent presentation of God in the blasphemous show

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Noah. It's amazing how we look at God as if he were simply one of us.

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And yet God himself says in Psalm 50, You think I am one such as you. I am not. I will reprove you.

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And, you know, it's amazing. Okay, well, we're going to take a break now. We should be back. We've got Robert on the line.

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As soon as we come back from the break, we're going to talk with Robert about Mormon salvation. And we're back.

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You're listening to The Dividing Line radio broadcast. My name is Rich Pierce. I'm sitting in for James White. And we are discussing

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Mormon salvation. Titus 3, 5, and 6, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the

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Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by his grace we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

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A fantastic verse illustrating the salvation by grace alone and the merciful act of God.

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We've got Robert on line one. We're going to talk to him right now. Hello, Robert. You're calling from Phoenix. How are you today, sir? Robert, are you there?

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Yes. All right. How are you today? Good. Thank you for taking my call. We're glad you called. My problem is in witnessing to Mormons is the fact that they have an authority outside the

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King James Version Bible, namely the Book of Mormon, and in fact they see everything in the light of this text.

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That, you know, I cannot accept. It's valid. Because of, you know, Revelation 22, verse 19, where I can't add to and take away from, and thus we have this like immediate impasse, you know, where they rely on the

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Book of Mormon and I rely on the Bible, and I just get so frustrated. Is there any way that I could...

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Well, first of all, I do want to correct one thing, and we talked about this a few weeks ago. I think it's common thought that the

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Mormons do see the Book of Mormon as their higher authority, but in point of fact they take the vast majority of their doctrines from the

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Doctrine and Covenants. And I wouldn't use Revelation, the Revelation passage you cited there, as a good response simply because they come back and say, well, that's just in reference to the

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Book of Revelation. You can't add or take away from the Book of Revelation. And again, the canon wasn't put together in such a way that we have it now at the time the

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Book of Revelation was put together. But a better verse there would be

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Proverbs 30, verses 5 and 6, and I think this is where we come from when we deal with Mormons, is let's prove it, let's face it out.

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Proverbs 30, verses 5 and 6 says that every word of God is pure. He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him.

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Add thou not to His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Now that's got some kick to it, and it makes the point loud and clear.

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We're not to add to the Word of God. Now, the Holy Spirit is going to be consistent, they'll agree with you.

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He's going to be consistent with everything He reveals, and He's not revealed the Bible and then turns around and contradicts

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Himself in Doctrine and Covenants, Book of Mormon, etc., etc. So you are talking about a common struggle in trying to communicate with them, but we have tracks, and in fact you're going to receive

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James' book, Letters to a Mormon Elder, and that's going to help you a lot in really knowing how to authoritatively answer them.

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I hope that helps. Okay, thank you very much. You betcha, sir. Thank you for calling. Okay, guys, the effects of sin on mankind.

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This is an area where I don't think that Mormons really appreciate what sin does, the impact of sin upon man's soul.

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Mike Munoz? I would agree with you 100%. In fact, I'll read a passage from 2 Nephi 2, and I think this is where the difference begins.

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It's a very famous verse. Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy.

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There's a big difference in Mormon theology, the result of sin, versus Christian theology, the result of sin.

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I think Sean had something to say about that. Yeah, I would say that the catchphrase that we use as biblical

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Christians is that man is totally depraved, and what we mean by that is not, we do not mean that man is as bad as he could be.

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Obviously, man can be a lot worse. In some situations we see in history that man gets pretty bad.

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But man is totally depraved in his mind, in his understanding, in his will, his affections.

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Everything is depraved. And if we let Scripture speak for itself, in the book of Romans chapter 3, it says that all are under sin.

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There's none righteous, no, not one. Then it goes on. I recommend that you read this in your Bibles at home.

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There's none that understands. There's none that seeks after God. They're all gone out of the way.

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They've all together become unprofitable. There's none that doeth good, no, not one. And then it goes on, and the description gets worse and worse.

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But men are depraved as a result of being the children of Adam and Eve. This is a result of the fall.

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And I think that's important because even for the believer, and we'll see this, I'm going to read a passage from Isaiah 64.

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Even for the believer, those who are repenting, they recognize that they are so sinful that left to themselves, their righteous deeds don't gain them any merit before God.

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Isaiah 64 .6, and this is the people in captivity speaking. And this is actually, they have started to repent of their sins, and they've recognized that they're where they are because they've sinned and they've been punished of God.

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And they have this to say. For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment, and all of us wither like a leaf.

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Our iniquities like the wind take us away. Our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment.

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Now, we're on live radio, so I can't give you the pure Hebrew translation of that little passage there.

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But the point is, it is graphic. The Hebrew is graphic at just how filthy our righteous deeds, apart from a

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Savior, are in the sight of a holy God. Yeah, absolutely. Mike? Well, and of course you can follow that up with Romans 8, verses 5 and following.

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It says, those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the spirit, the things of the spirit.

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For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile towards God, for it is not able to subject itself to the law of God, for it is not able to do so.

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And those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So we need to keep in mind that when we're talking about sin, we're not talking about just simply bad actions.

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We're talking about an entire mindset that is at war with God. And a holy God at that, who will hold us accountable for all of our actions.

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Which is why we need, when we start talking about sin, when we start talking about salvation, we need to talk about the fact that it is not by our merits, and not by what we do, which is what the

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Mormon Church does teach, but it is by Christ alone, and what Christ did. Now, out of curiosity here,

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I read a quote from a Mormon source earlier in the program, and it talked about the fact that one must have personal righteousness.

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Now, given the verses that we've just shared, is man capable of personal righteousness before God?

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Well, I think of the passage that Mike Munoz just simply spoke on, that the righteousness that we have alone is still filthy rags.

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The greatest that we can do is obscene towards God. Again, it's what I was following up with.

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It is not the actions of man. It is not our greatness, not our righteousness. Nothing that we can do can please

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God, but it is Christ alone. I think it's important to bring up a distinction here.

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We are talking about our standing before God. Now, once a person is changed by God, once the heart has been changed, once the person has been regenerated, has accepted

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Christ, yes, then in the power of the Holy Spirit, we can do certain acts that are pleasing to God in heaven, but not pleasing in the sense that we can bring about or add to our salvation.

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I think it's like what Mike was just saying. Huge impact when you consider the fact that you put all of our good things together, the best we can offer

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God, and it's his filthy rags before him. Okay, we've got John in Mesa calling in.

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John, how are you today? Just fine, sir. What can we do for you? I've got a couple of questions. I remember I was watching that program on Noah.

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I do have a question for you about Cain, the line of Cain. Now, there were eight that were spared in Noah's Ark, is that correct?

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Now, was the line of Cain spared outside of the

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Ark? Was that lineage spared somehow? It's amazing, because I had a discussion with some

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Mormon teenagers in Mesa at the Easter pageant this year about that very subject, and you should have seen the looks on their faces when

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I'm like, look, the line of Cain drowned. They drowned. They're gone. They're history. And they're just going, wait a second, how can that be?

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And they were trying to come up with all kinds of different ways of explaining it, but yes, the bottom line is Cain's lineage drowned.

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Okay, so it was only the eight in Noah's Ark, period. That's the Bible I read.

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Anybody here want to... No, absolutely, that's what Genesis says, just the eight were spared and no one else.

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I think, again, you have a situation to where, and I don't say this to be mean,

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I think it's factual. When you're making it up as you go along, doctrines like this fall through the cracks.

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And doctrines like this come out to where they start saying that, and what John is getting at, folks, is he's getting at the idea that the line of Cain was given a mark.

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Well, Mormons believe that was a black skin. And it wasn't until the late 1970s when blacks were allowed to have the priesthood in the

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Mormon church. So thank you for your call today, John. We really appreciate you calling in. And I'm going to put you on hold because I hope

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Dave's got your address. I don't know, did he get that from you? Anyway, quickly, because we are running out of time here, gentlemen.

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When we look at the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ, this is a Christian doctrine that I think a lot of Mormons just flat do not understand.

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They don't realize that when we talk about the atonement, we're talking about the fact that Jesus Christ took my place up on that cross.

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I deserved to hang there. My sin is what made me deserve that.

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I deserved to hang on that cross. Mike Munoz? I think Paul says it best in 2 Corinthians 5 .21.

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God made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

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Again, Christ took upon himself our sin, so that he could then place in our account his righteousness.

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He was the Lamb of God. You talk about the sacrifices in the Old Testament. He was the one, the perfect Lamb of God, that took our place.

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In 1 John 2 .2 it says, And he himself, speaking of Jesus, is the propitiation, that's the term

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I used a little earlier, for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. And the idea there is that the death, the atonement of Jesus Christ, was perfectly satisfying to the wrath of God.

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God's wrath was done away with in the atonement of Jesus Christ. And this is what is so difficult for Christians to swallow when

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Mormons tell them that for certain grievous sins, that your own blood must be shed to pay that penalty.

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And folks, I've got to tell you, and we are running out of time, I want to tell you this real quickly. My sinful blood cannot atone for spitting on the sidewalk, let alone certain grievous sins.

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And Jesus Christ took my place. He shed his perfect and sinless blood in my place.

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And I am desperately grateful for that fact. Thank you for listening to The Dividing Line today.

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It's been a wonderful show. And we're hoping James is going to be back with us next week. If not, we'll be here talking about the priesthood.

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Have a great weekend. The Dividing Line is a presentation of Alpha and Omega Ministries. You can contact us at 602 -...