The War in Israel: Reformed Thoughts | Theocast

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Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, John and I are going to attempt to bring some clarity to a conversation that's quite heated regarding the war going on in Israel.

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There's a lot of theological arguments being made. There are a lot of questions being asked. And so for our part, we want to try to bring some hope and we pray some light from God's Word and ultimately talk about the plan of God through Christ and all of these things.

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Stay tuned, we hope you're encouraged. If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word. It's called pietism.

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Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy? That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what

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Christ has done for you. It's dread versus joy, really. That's pietism. Pietism causes

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Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done but what they're doing.

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We have a little book for you. It's free. We want you to download it and we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism.

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Reform theology, really. How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ and when

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Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like? You can download it on our website.

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Just go to theocast .org. Welcome to Theocast.

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Encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ. Conversations about the Christian life from a confessional, reformed, and pastoral perspective.

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Your hosts today are John Moffitt, who is pastor of Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, and I am

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Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina. We're recording in an afternoon window, so may the

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Lord give us grace, stamina, and we've got good coffee to help us out with those afternoon doldrums that most everybody experiences.

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Don't lie if you... Yeah, anyway, I think you do. And maybe that... Yeah, we can talk about circadian rhythms and all kinds of fun things, but I don't think it's bad to have coffee in the afternoon,

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John. The religion of health, I'm just not in it. Not for it. Read David Zahl's book, Seculosity.

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Come on. There we go. There's a plug, David. You're welcome for that, brother. John, we're going to record a podcast today, or at least hope to.

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Yeah. Before we do, you know, I always got to do this. Favorite seg. Got to give me a piece. Favorite seg.

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Yeah. Hey, for those of you that would like some swag, Justin's got an amazing hat on. We got these coffee mugs.

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I have trust Christ to calm down. They're bigger now. They're like the eight ounce or whatever. And they're white. They're not black.

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So it doesn't affect the taste. Well, they're both. Like I said, they're both. Yeah, well, they have both. Yeah. Anyways, you can get all that stuff.

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But more importantly, this is coming out, I believe, next week. So yesterday I did a live recording about prayer.

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First time we've ever done this. So Justin and I are trying to do this a little bit more, why we struggle with prayer. And it was for our members.

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So if you're not a part of our community, please go do so. There's almost 700 people in there now. And there's a class on there that I did with Q &A.

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And there's all of our other material on there. All of Justin's sermons are on there. All of my sermon. It's just a great hub that you can take with you anywhere.

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It has all of our podcasts and material articles and stuff like that. So come join the community.

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That's it. It's all I got, Justin. So I guess I'll bring us in. Please do. Yeah. These type of episodes are rare for Justin and I.

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We don't do a lot of these. Typically, we don't respond to things in the culture very often.

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We'll do it. We just don't do it very often. Because, I don't know. It's just not the nature of our podcast.

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I'm sorry. I'm immediately thinking of that video that we both love. Which one? I mean, about once, twice a year.

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Go ahead. All right. Everybody's going to be asking what that is now. We'll tell you. Yeah, we'll tell you now.

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We'll tell you now. So, I want to tell the audience who we're talking to.

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Because this is really important for Justin and I. For you to know who this is for. And for those of you this is not for, do with this what you will.

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We are not talking to the person who has got a blog or a podcast or a

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YouTube channel or whatever. And is going to blast us for what we're about to say.

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That's not who we're here for. We're not here to debate dispensationalist or premillennialist or any of that.

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We are here to talk to people. This is not an eschatology war. This is not an eschatology war. We're not here to defend amillennialism over postmillennialism or whatever.

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That's not what we're here for. Not the point. I want to talk to the person who is legitimately grappling their heart going.

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What's going on? And how do I make sense of this? Wow. This war that's happening over in Israel.

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And everybody is saying all of this stuff. And it's confusing. And prophecy is being fulfilled. And the return of Christ.

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And it feels like a very terrifying moment. And it is. I mean war is always terrifying.

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But somehow in the Christian community. Specifically in the American Christian community. It's become more.

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So Justin and I wanted to sit down. And after a couple of requests from people who listen to the podcast.

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I mean a number. We wanted to talk to the people who are trying to make sense of this.

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So that tomorrow they know how they are to think about their faith. Their church. And what's going on from a biblical perspective.

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So we're talking to you. That's the person we want to address today. And it's lamentable that the response to a lot of this.

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Like you said has been driven by. The kind of eschatology war perspective.

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And a lot of fear mongering. And just it's not very helpful to Christians in America.

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Or any other place for that matter. And the things that we want to say out of the gate.

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Are probably going to get us criticized. I know our friend Chad Byrd made comments along these lines the other day. And I think he was called a false prophet.

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So Chad we're just going to stand in line with you. And yeah man happily take some bullets alongside you.

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In short. I mean what has happened in terms of the war in Israel. And the attack on Israeli citizens.

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On the part of Hamas. And a Muslim terrorist group. And all those things are terrible.

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I mean they are morally objectively wicked. And heinous. And that goes without saying.

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We trust. And so we lament and grieve the loss of life.

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And the use of violence. And all those kinds of things. Along with people all over the world. That we trust is clear.

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That's not the part we're going to be criticized about. But we. From our perspective.

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Taking our cue from Christ himself. Would understand that the call. To us is to actually pray for people on both sides of this equation.

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To pray for Israelites. And those who have been harmed and sinned against and wronged.

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But also to pray for the perpetrators. And for those who have done the violence. Christ tells us to pray for our enemies.

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And so we should. And it ought not outrage us to hear that.

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It's a strong word from our Savior. That we're going to pray for those who persecute us. That we're going to pray for our enemies.

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Taking our cue from God himself. Who sends the rain on the just and the unjust. Who causes the sun to shine on the evil and the good.

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So that's one. We want to pray for everyone. We want to pray for God's mercy.

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We want to pray for even God to work salvificly. In the lives of people. On both sides of this.

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And then last comment from me. Just kind of getting the ball rolling, John. And we'd love to hear your thoughts along these lines.

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It's appropriate that we would rise up in this moment. When real injustice and real wrong and real wickedness has been done.

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And we would say this is wrong. And we want to pursue justice for the people who have been wronged.

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In this case, we want to pursue justice for Israelite men and women. Absolutely.

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And at the same time, we should have the same instinct. When it comes to, for example, the war in Ukraine.

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Where we want to pursue justice for all men and women. Because all of us have been made in God's image.

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And therefore, we are concerned for the good of all people. Regardless of ethnicity.

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And so that needs to be maintained here too. That as we think about the global scene and geopolitical things.

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The pursuit of justice for all men is a good thing under God. Even as a Christian.

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For me to think in those terms. But for me to think that I'm going to uniquely pursue justice for one people and not another.

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That's problematic. Yeah. And that's offensive for some people to hear.

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It is. Yeah, theologically. And we're going to get into the theology part in a second.

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Yeah, we will. It is interesting how there has been an emphasis on one particular war over another. And I know one is newer.

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So anything that's new typically is going to get more coverage. Of course. In the new cycle these days. Yeah. Right. So I'm not going to impugn people for covering what's new.

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That's just. No. You don't do that. But I will say that it is being covered differently.

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And how it's being covered. In my opinion, Justin. It used to be a newspaper in one hand and the

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Bible in the other. But now it's a remote in one hand. Or your phone. And a Bible in the other.

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Where you're trying to compare the two. And contrast. Saying see this is prophecies being fulfilled.

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And you know there are even people who strongly believe that those who curse Israel will be cursed. And those who bless

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Israel will be blessed. And so we want America to be blessed. Therefore you know there's the prophecy has been fulfilled.

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And again that's part of that fear mongering that we're talking about. That there's multiple things that are happening.

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But the fear of the oh this is the end time. Like this is it's all about to happen. It's all about to go down. And then there is the cursing part of it.

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Like if we don't get on the side of Israel and protect them. Then God's going to judge us for that. And there's just a lot of confusion here.

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And so what Justin and I want to do is bring clarity of one the hope of the gospel.

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Two the mission of the church. And then speak into I think some of the mudslinging that's happening within the eschatology wars.

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That it's just not appropriate. No it's not. To begin with. I think we can.

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Yeah go ahead. Ask the question. I know you're going. Yeah. High level. What does the scripture teach regarding God's plan for Israel.

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And God's plan in and through Israel. Because that's a pivotal pivotal piece of this whole thing.

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One second. My phone was blowing up. I need to silence that thing. We can edit that out if we need to. Or we'll just let it roll because we're professionals.

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Just keep rolling. This is how it rolls. This is how we live right. So huge question.

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Because you even just cited. You know I'm going to bless those who bless you. I'm going to curse those who curse you.

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Which is taken from the Old Testament. And you and I John are covenant theologians now. So we are not people that see this radical disjointed disunity between the

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Old and New Testament. That's not at all what we're saying. But having said that. Our understanding as covenantal theologians is that God without question chose the nation of Israel.

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They were uniquely adopted by him as his people. And God had specific purposes that he meant to accomplish in and through them.

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And he established the nation through the covenant that he made with Abraham. Where he promised

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Abraham descendants. Like a number of physical offspring. And he promised a land that that people would dwell in.

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Promised also that kings would come from Abraham and the like. Having said that. Later on in the Old Testament.

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So this is all like Genesis 12. 15, 17, etc. That's right. That's where all that comes from.

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But then later on in the Old Testament. Regarding the specific promises to Abraham. Descendants and a land and kings and all that.

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When you get into the book of Joshua. When you get into the book of Nehemiah and other places. Scripture is plain. That everything

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God promised that he would do for Abraham he did it. Now alongside those temporal purposes that God had.

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In establishing a people in a land. What was he ultimately doing? He was using

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Israel and ministering in and through Israel. Working in and through Israel to bring the Christ. Who would save Israel and who would save the nations.

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And so the salvation of the nations came through the nation of Israel. And so that people was put.

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Was established and put in the land of Canaan and governed by God's law. And all of those kinds of things. And the covenant in particular that God made with David.

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After the covenant God made with Abraham. And the covenant made through Moses with the people. God makes a covenant with David.

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There's a promised son of David who's going to come. Who's going to represent the people and save the nation. And we know that Jew and Gentile alike.

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Anyone who will ever dwell with God forever in the new heavens and the new earth. Has been saved by Jesus of Nazareth. Who was the goal of everything that God was doing in and through this people.

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And that has to be remembered. Because then as Jesus comes and ushers in the new covenant. And he, the covenant to use our language

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John. The covenant of grace is established with the coming of Jesus Christ. We now have to say that these promises that were uniquely situated.

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In the Mosaic covenant for example. How God is going to with this unique people group.

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This geopolitical entity that is Israel. Those things existed. Those promises and those verses. Like I'm going to bless those who bless you.

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I'm going to curse those who curse you. Existed for a period of time in redemptive history. And then with the coming of Christ.

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The fulfillment of God's plan is here. And the gospel is now going to go to the nations. And God's people on earth are now the church.

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That includes Jew and Gentile. It's not only a geopolitical entity that isn't the nation of Israel.

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Under the old covenant in the land of Canaan. And so that kind of clear understanding is needed to start to try to parse this out.

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In terms of how we should think about the geopolitical entity that is Israel now. Post 1948.

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Last comment from me. That geopolitical entity is not Israel under the old covenant.

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That's not how we should understand it. Israel established by the covenants with Abraham, Moses, and David.

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That nation ceased to be when Rome flattened it.

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And so, I'm going to talk about land promises more in just a minute. I'm sure we're going to go there.

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I'm going to hold off on that right now. I've said plenty, John. Please interact. Well, just to maybe add into that some additional thoughts.

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That this often when we mention these things. The first thing that's heralded at us is this is replacement theology. And I'm going to go ahead and address this.

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This is not a podcast on this. I don't want to get into this. If anything. I want to address this here because it is going to.

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Well, thank you. It is fulfillment theology. So, but all of this is.

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So, just track with us for a little bit. We're setting this up. This is vitally important because we're going to get down to how to apply these events.

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Like, what does the church do with this? What do you as an individual do with this? So, just stay with us. Okay. This is not an attack podcast.

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This is to help bring some clarity. I think for any eschatological view that you hold.

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Post, pre, or amil. We will get to the application of this here in a minute.

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But we're not replacing Israel. What you'll read when you understand is that God's redemptive plan started in the garden.

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When you get to Paul, he even, he helps remind you of that. Like, from the, before the world began. He had promised to save sinners.

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Right? Well, we can see that the bookends of that is what his plan is. The question is, how does he do that?

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And he chose to start with Adam and Eve, the sinners. From them would come a child.

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And from that child, there would be greater explanation. And I would call pinpointing.

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Narrowing it down. And so, he narrows it down to a nation. And from that nation, through the fulfillment of the law.

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Through the fulfillment of multiple prophecies. We have a Messiah. So, that has all been fulfilled according to his sovereign plan.

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And it's still being fulfilled because now that the Messiah has come. He fulfilled the law.

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He died for our sins. He rose from the grave. The Spirit has come. And now the Spirit works within the church.

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The church is now fulfilling its plan. Right? It's moved from Israel. It's not replacing. There's always been the people of God.

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Always doing the work of God. And if anything, the church has been grafted in. Right? That's right. There's the church of God from all time. But Gentiles have been grafted in along with Jews to make up this people that are called the church.

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That's right. So, we're seeing that God's promises and people are being fulfilled.

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And you can see this in the transition between the old and the new. This is really important because you have to then ask,

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What is the mission of the church in light of the old and the new? What is the mission of the church?

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That's what we're going to eventually get to. But I just wanted to look at this from a standpoint when people will say, Stop listening to these guys.

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First of all, replacement theology does not exist. I don't know who created that boogeyman, but it doesn't exist.

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And secondly, it can't be heresy if it doesn't exist. We're not replacing Jesus with another

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Messiah. That's not happening. So, what happens in these theological debates, and I'm going to mention this now,

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Justin, and then I'll throw it back over to you, is we get heated for our position and we become convinced in our position, which is fine.

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Justin and I are very convinced. Being 1689 Federalists, we believe in covenant theology. We're all male.

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We're convinced in this. But we often cannot demonize the other side, and this is what's happening.

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And anybody who opposes the view that this is the fulfillment of Israel, you're just heretics.

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You don't believe in the Bible. That is not what's happening here. And I don't want to do it to them as well. I want to be gracious to them, and I'm hoping that they'll be gracious to us in return.

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Last big biblical theological comment before we maybe get to more of the… I shouldn't say last.

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Maybe I've got two. I mean, I want to be honest with the listener out there. One is whenever we read the promises about land, there is a temporal fulfillment in terms of the covenant made with Abraham in the land of Canaan.

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But then the language, for example, about… I'm thinking about the prophets here, in particular, like the language of Ezekiel and how

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God is going to gather his people and bring them back into their land and establish them and all those things. And there's even language in some of the minor prophets about the borders being expanded once the people come back from exile.

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Well, those things, brother… I mean, even when the people come back from Babylonian captivity and everything else and they're rebuilding the wall and the temple and all that, which we read about in Ezra and Nehemiah, the borders are never expanded.

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Like, this actually does not happen in terms of Israel under the old covenant. But what those prophecies are pointing to regarding God's people living in God's land forever is undebatably about the new heavens and the new earth.

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I mean, this is Hebrews 11, right, regarding Abraham and all of his descendants. If they had been…

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When they're looking for a homeland, bro, and if they had been thinking about the one that they had left, they would have had opportunity to return, i .e.

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Canaan. But as it is, they're looking for a better country, a heavenly one. And just like Abraham and all of the people of his era, we too are pilgrims and sojourners awaiting our final home.

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And so the land promises to Israel, God's people in God's land forever, in his benevolent presence, being cared for by him, those promises are fulfilled in the new heavens and the new earth when the entire world redeemed will be the dwelling place of God's people and God will dwell with us.

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So that's huge that we understand that. In terms of the arc of Scripture and ultimately what this is about,

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God's plan of redemption accomplished through Christ were nothing less than our bodily resurrection to live with the

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Lord in the new heavens and the new earth. That's the goal. Hey guys, real quick. Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

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So where do you go? How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources? We have started something called the

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Theocast Community. We're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like -minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

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You can go check it out. The link is in the description below. Well, I'll just add on to this. We did an episode on the rebuilding of the temple, which is related to a lot of this.

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People think that Israel has to be back as a nation because the temple must be rebuilt according to Ezekiel. You and I did an episode on this explaining that, one, that theologically that won't work, but number two, from the text itself that doesn't lend.

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It's not a rebuilding of the temple. He's talking about the new heavens and the new earth. He's using typology to help explain it.

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Typological, yeah. To your point, read Ezekiel. We'll put it in the notes. To your point, read Ezekiel 40s, right?

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In particular like 47. But then read that and then jump to Revelation 22, and it's astonishing how it's so plain that all of Ezekiel's great vision of the temple and the sanctuary of God and the river that flows from the throne, all that, that is

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Revelation 22. The culmination of the fulfillment is, like we said, new heavens and new earth.

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We'll leave that to the listener. It's encouraging, though. It isn't fear -producing. It's hope -giving, right?

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Those who of the Old Testament would have read these prophecies from Ezekiel about the temple, they would be able to understand that this is, first of all, it's a different temple than the original.

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Yes. What it's functioning as is different, and there's this river flowing from the door, which is a representation of Jesus by means of restoring all things.

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Sure, there's the river of life and the new heavens and the new earth, but then there's even, going back to the Garden of Eden, there's the river that flows out of the garden, too.

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So there's all of this imagery, right, from Eden to the temple to the new heavens and the new earth. That's how we need to understand the

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Scriptures regarding that part. Other comment, though, John, when it comes to, in particular, I'm thinking about the Olivet Discourse recorded in the

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Synoptic Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, where Jesus speaks, and he speaks to several different questions he's asked, like some immediate near -term, some kind of throughout the time from his ascension to his return, some things at the very end.

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So we've got to think Olivet Discourse is not just one plane. There are multiple horizons that he's speaking to.

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But notice how he says that there will be earthquakes and wars and rumors of wars and all these things, but this is just the birth pains, the beginning of the birth pains.

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But when he speaks that way, John, he is speaking about this kind of tragedy and this kind of horrific stuff happening in the entire era that is the last days, meaning from the time that Jesus ascends to heaven until he comes back, right, his second advent.

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That entire era we would understand to be the last days, and we would understand that wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and all these things are going to be happening throughout that entire span of time.

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So think about, for example, the last 2 ,000 years, how many significant historical things have happened that are natural disasters or are wars nation against nation involving every people group under the sun.

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This is a part of the already but not yet and the birth pains that Jesus described.

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So we shouldn't be shocked when we hear of Ukraine or Israel or the war.

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This is just the nature of life under the sun until our Lord comes back, and that's what he was meaning to convey.

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So I say that to try to comfort the people out there who are terrified that this is something utterly unique, and it's like, no, he told us this would happen.

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Yeah, well, it's been a cycle too. I mean, World War I, people thought it was the end of the world. Dispensationalism was on the rise.

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And then post -World War I, you have post -millennialism on the rise because you have the industrial age in progress, and we start living longer than before.

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And now it's just interesting how the cycle goes. We keep thinking, oh, this is the end of the world. And now, oh, no, it's not the end of the world.

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And so our eschatology changes with what's going on. And this is where you can't get your eschatology from history or from modern context.

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You have to get it from the text. 100%. And again, this is not an eschatology debate. I'll say this, Justin, kind of transitioning over to this.

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I don't care what your eschatology is. I have one last comment on eschatology after you make yours. No, go ahead and make it now because I want to transition.

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The only thing that I would say about eschatology on today's podcast is you said it well.

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Oftentimes our eschatology is driven by crisis response. That's no good. But then in addition,

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I think, sadly, what happens for many people in various camps, this is not just limited to our dispensational premill, you know, pre -trib rapture guys.

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Oftentimes our eschatological view becomes a tail that wags the dog, and we interpret everything through that lens when in reality our particular view on eschatology, the end times, the last things, is actually a derivative of much more upstream conviction.

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So it's a downstream conviction from things that are upstream. So our high -level theological and hermeneutical convictions are what should drive our eschatology, not the other way around.

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That's right. Justin and I will not say that end times theology does not matter. That's foolish. It does matter.

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It matters significantly. And the reason why it matters is that you have to bring logic and hope into play in the midst of suffering.

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Logic and hope meaning that there is a purpose for the suffering, and there is an end with final restoration.

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That's the hope side of it. So we have the logical reasons for it, and then we have the hope past it.

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So, yeah, end times theology does matter. But I will tell you this. When you read your

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Old and New Testament, when they think about the end of all things, they use the word hope and long for.

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When I hear it in today's context, it's fear and dread and worry.

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And when you're talking about suffering and how there's rumors of wars of wars, Peter says this.

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I'll read Peter. Paul says it also in Thessalonians. But Peter says when he's talking about, oh,

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I changed it. But it's in 1 Peter 4 .19. He says, why are you surprised when you are under attack, when you have evil done to you?

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1 Peter 4 .12, when fiery trials come upon you. Is that what you mean? Come upon you. That's right. I said this last night with our men's group.

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I said being a Christian, being a follower of Christ, is a life of anarchy.

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Because you're going against the flow of an actual army that's trying to force you to go in their direction.

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And so you're going to stand up and proclaim Christ, which is against everything that this culture and this world is for.

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This is why even in Philippians 2, it says, it's been granted to you not only to believe, but also to suffer for his sake.

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This is part of the call of the believer. So I'll tell you this, Justin. You and I, we haven't suffered as Christians.

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We've been pastoring and been alive for over 40 years. As far as when it goes to our brothers and sisters throughout history, the

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American culture doesn't really understand suffering. And that's just part of the cycle that we find ourselves in.

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I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm not saying I want to suffer. But we somehow equate the lack of suffering with something significant that we have done.

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When God has always advanced his church in both areas, but predominantly through the suffering is when the church does grow.

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And so if God's going to use these type of events, which is fine, we are told and promised that our suffering is not in vain and it's not without cause or use.

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And this is why we long with Romans when it says that we are groaning with the world, our bodies and the earth is groaning to be set free from this.

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That's the hope side. So in my opinion, anytime that you look at, and I would say this is from a very strong exegetical defense, anytime that you look at chaos in the world, the passages of hope become paramount for us.

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2 Peter talks about that we are to be sober -minded, we are to be alert. Why?

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Because there's danger, right? There's an actual war happening physically and spiritually.

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And then he says this, set your hope fully on the grace that is to come. So that the mission of the church becomes not about what's happening politically, but the mission of the church is to say in the midst of every war, famine, and every earthquake and every disaster in this world, the world is without hope because it is in self -destruction.

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But we are people of hope. Hear the good news of Christ. Hear the good news of hope.

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So in light of what's going on with Israel, the mission of the church does not change. The hope of the church does not change.

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We have a full assurance that Christ will accomplish what he has promised, that when he returns, he will wipe away every tear, he will make all things new, and there will be no more death, there will be no more war, there will be no more sin.

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That's the hope that you offer the world. Unfortunately, when you're paying attention to what's happening in the news right now,

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Justin, it seems like the good news of the gospel is somehow this is the end times.

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That's not the good news of the gospel. Justin Perdue Yeah, and we need to stand the right way so that the

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Lord might be pleased with us. Of course we need to pursue faithfulness. We're not arguing that, but what does faithfulness look like?

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Like you said, I just think you said it so well, regardless of what war we're talking about, and even this particular war in Israel and the horrific things that have happened, it actually has not changed the mission of the church at all.

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When it comes to even the way we open this by saying there is grief and lament for all of the pain, and we should grieve evil, and also there is compassion and prayerfulness for all people involved here, victims and perpetrators alike.

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If we were to ask the question and then answer it, what are we called to do regarding an

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Israelite or a Muslim terrorist? What are we called to do? I think from the mission of the church perspective, it's pretty clear.

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We would preach God's law. Here's God.

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Here's who he is. Here's what he requires. You're undone by that just like I am. The law is good and righteous and holy, and you're not.

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We start there. But then we herald Christ. But have you considered Jesus, the one who is

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Israel's greater son, the one who is the point of everything

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God was doing in and through this nation? Have you thought about him and how he is the fulfillment of every promise

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God ever made and how he is going to usher us into the new heavens and the new earth because he has dealt with our sin, he's endured the law's curse for us, and he fulfilled all the law's righteous requirements, and then he was buried, and he resurrected, and he conquered death, and he conquered the enemy, he descended into hell to liberate, and he has set

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God's people free. That's what we say, so trust him. It's sad that we would ever have a different response than that.

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We get so distracted by things that are not the point, and everything, like you said, becomes so politically motivated.

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Man, we end up falling into the trap of fear, and we divide, and we argue, when in reality we should grieve, we should weep, and we should preach the gospel, and we should invite people in to taste and see that the

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Lord is good and that Christ is a savior. Let's just say our eschatology is wrong,

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Justin, and let's just say that our friends, our dear beloved friends who we love and respect, that there's going to be this rapture and this tribulation and all this stuff.

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How does it change the mission? It doesn't. It doesn't change the posture or the mission, because unless you are not a

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Calvinist, and somehow you believe that you can persuade through manipulation people into the kingdom, the only thing that brings people from death to life and grow them in Christ is a proclamation of the gospel.

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That's it. The message of Jesus. You cannot use fear of hell and tribulation to convince them to repent, because no one can repent because they're dead.

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You give them the law, hey, look, you're dead. Guess what dead souls need? They need life.

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Do you want to hear what life is? Then you give them the gospel. I understand it's intriguing.

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It's fascinating. It's almost like, wow, the Bible's real. There's a sense where it draws you to it.

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I think that, in my opinion, it's a great tactic of the evil one, because what does the evil one want to do?

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He understands. He knows that the power of the gospel is what defeats death.

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It's what brings people. He wants to stop that message. If he can get us talking about anything but the power of the gospel, then he wins.

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Paul says in Ephesians 6, he says that the sword is the word of God.

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If we're not advancing the very thing that transforms and saves people, then at this moment, what is the church here for?

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This is what ends up happening, Justin, is that we become justice warriors. We become prophecy warriors.

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We become infatuated with that which does not have the tag power of God on it.

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This is the power of God. If my dispensational brothers are real and there's a tribulation coming, all the more reason to stay faithful and focused on loving the church and proclaiming the gospel in your local city because Christ is returning.

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Whether you're an all -male, pre -male, or post -male, I think that doesn't change. It doesn't. Even as we think about Israel in particular, because I don't want us to be misunderstood on this,

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I'm preaching through the book of Romans now. I'm out of the pulpit for a few weeks at the present moment, but I'll be in Romans 11 soon.

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There are some great words written there about Gentiles being saved.

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You and I are Gentiles, John. The vast majority of the members of my church are Gentiles. We've got a few Jewish members.

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Praise the Lord. That said, Paul's ink that he spills in Romans 11 should speak to us all that we as Gentiles have been grafted into the natural branch, the natural tree that is representative of God's people whom he's saving.

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Israel is the natural branch, and we as Gentiles are being grafted into the people of God, the one people of God from all time.

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What that should mean for us as Gentiles is that we're humble and that we count it an honor to be grafted into the one people of God from all time.

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So do not in any way hear us acting like, oh, well, these guys just don't care about Israel. That is not at all what we're saying.

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We count it a privilege to be grafted into the one people of God from all time, and what we're saying now in the era of the new covenant, the covenant of grace established when

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Jesus has come, the mission of the church is to preach Christ to all men, Jew and Gentile alike, and we all,

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Jew and Gentile alike, at the end of this whole thing are going to be around the throne of God praising the one who's seated there and praising the

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Lamb. And we'll all be there because we've got robes on that have been washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb, and it's going to be wonderful.

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And I think we'll understand things obviously then that we don't understand now, but let's not get this thing confused and be arguing over political things and misapplying biblical covenants and scaring people.

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Let's not do that. Let's hold out the hope of God's one plan to save His people from all time,

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Jew and Gentile, and let's herald Jesus to one another. And so let this, we know Thanksgiving's coming, and there's probably going to be a lot of conversations around the table about any number of things, and if you're in a believing household, you may very well be talking about the events going on in Israel.

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We hope that that's an encouraging conversation. Weep, pray, pray for mercy, pray for justice, all of those things, and then ultimately land on God's promises to us through Christ, whether you're a

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Jew or a Gentile. That's what we would hope you'd do. I mean, I challenge you to go read the end of Epistles.

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It's interesting how they end them. 1 Peter 5 -10, And after you have suffered a little while, the

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God of all grace, who has called you into His eternal glory in Christ, He Himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

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So the comfort is always the work of Christ at the end. Yeah, it is. But there is the filter of suffering.

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You know, this is why James even says, Hey, you should count it a joy in your suffering because that pretty much means you're doing the work right.

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You're actually advancing something. And beware, there's a roaring lion who wants to stop you, and he's good at it, and he takes people out.

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So it's just, there is, you know, one more, I'm sorry, but Romans 8 -18, For I consider the suffering of this present time.

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How many times do they have to acknowledge that the, and I don't think they just mean suffering like, Oh, I got a splinter.

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No, legitimate, I think, persecution for faith, and then general earth suffering. Like both.

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Well, the creation groans, that certainly has to include earthquakes and natural disasters. Yes. All those things.

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And war, of course. You know, the things we've been talking about. So, again, it doesn't matter what your eschatology is, if you're not emphasizing

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Christ and Him crucified in the hope of Christ, and dedicating yourself to the church. I mean, Jesus literally says,

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I died for the church. Not for an eschatology, not a view of eschatology. I died for this organization, and this organization is the hope of the nations.

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It's through the church that the hope of the nations will be met. So, you know, I think we should use this war as a means to start conversations about,

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Hey, listen, God warned us there would be wars, there would be trials and tribulation, because this world is in chaos.

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It's in chaos because, well, it's under the rule of another king. That king has its time.

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It's coming to the end. The king will reign, and when he returns, he will make all things new.

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Here's how this king will do that. You need to hear this message. So, we can always use war and suffering for our advantage to provide hope.

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Yep. And the present groanings are not worth comparing to the weight of the glory that's coming. And that is not a statement about the smallness of the groaning, or the smallness of the trial now.

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It's a statement about the greatness of the glory. The magnitude is beyond anything we can comprehend. Even as we groan now, along with the creation, the comfort is the

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Holy Spirit's with us in the groaning. Christ intercedes for us at the throne of God. And there is nothing that will ever separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our

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Lord. That's what we end with. And we hope in some way this has been clarifying for you and maybe has brought some hope into this conversation that's often just wrought with fear.

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And may the Lord have mercy on Israel. May the Lord have mercy on the Muslim terrorists who did the wickedness.

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And may the Lord save His people. May He be gracious to us all. We will, if Christ has not returned,

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John, which we hope He does, may He come. May this episode never air. Yeah, that would be wonderful.

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If He has not returned, we will talk with you again next week. On the podcast, thanks for tuning in. We appreciate each of you.

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Grace and peace. Hey everyone, before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you. And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

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But we also need your support. And it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

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