Cultish: Leaving the Moonies, Pt. 1

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Cultish - Leaving the Moonies, Pt. 2

00:00

All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is jeremiah roberts

00:05

I am one of the co -hosts here. I am here, uh with andrew the first super sleuth of the show

00:12

Uh, this episode is dropping in 2021. But as of this point in time, we are still uh in 2020, so hopefully, uh

00:20

We will make it out of 2020 when this episode releases. But Anyways, how are you doing, man? I'm doing better than I deserve dude

00:27

And i'm doing so good because i'm sitting also across from the absolute drew We've got drew in the studio with us today.

00:34

How are you doing? Drew? I am doing well I'm, just honestly really excited really honored to be here with you guys.

00:40

I was really excited to be on with both of you It's just really cool for me. Yeah, man I figure I figure you've always kind of been here behind the scenes and you're kind of here with us on our end of the year podcast kind of hanging out with you and Matthew hunter the uh husband of joy, uh the girl, uh temby or not temby.

00:57

That's her. That's that was her maiden name Yes, but uh, we are here with I feel silly because in the intro

01:05

I I totally I feel like I was like second guessing your Name because for the longest time I thought it was hannah, but it's actually hannah hannah

01:13

Oh my god Okay, I love it

01:20

I love it, um, so welcome thanks you flew in from california

01:26

So, uh glad, uh, you got to escape from all the craziness. I mean things are probably you're from the bay area which is even

01:32

That place from what I understand it just everything's a complete lockdown. I was telling you that Even the the san francisco 49ers they're actually playing some of their home games here in arizona because everything is that Draconian shut down.

01:47

So yeah times are strange but all that aside uh, we are here today because we got we connected and we got in touch probably uh, it was probably a couple months ago and you had talked about how you had grown up in the unification church, uh, aka the moonies and they are uh

02:05

One of those cults it's it's featured in waltz martin's kingdom of the cults. It's something that he addressed during his time

02:10

Uh, it's a cult in the 19 When did it kind of come to fruition? Because this clip that we played, uh introducing this podcast.

02:19

This is an interview from 1974 And you can tell it's like very old school. It's it's not you wouldn't see an interview like this today

02:26

The interview guy has a cigarette in his hand and it's just very old camera old school interview

02:31

But um, but yeah, so you grew up in the unification church and um, you're here to talk to us about that and so I think what would be good is um, maybe just tell them a little bit about yourself and Maybe start explaining too because I want to I think people need to understand the context of who sung young moon was kind of what the theology is

02:52

And in relation to they're kind of known for their mass marriages. It's kind of like that That's one thing that really defines them.

02:58

Yeah um What it's like to have children the aspect of having children Those different aspects what they believe about god what they believe about jesus what they believe about salvation because that sort of sets the foundation for Really how you operated as someone who kind of grew up.

03:15

Yeah in the moonies So let's start with this, uh, reverend sung young moon. Let's how did it start?

03:20

What what's the initial origin story of the unification church? Yeah, so reverend sung young moon he was born

03:27

I believe it was in the 19 1920 um in north korea and um, he's self -proclaimed second like he proclaims himself as the second coming the second messiah, um, and Yeah, the moonies they're known for their mass marriages.

03:43

Um, one of the biggest things that they really focus on is um, Like the blood lineage so their whole idea of like what the fall is is totally anti -christian um we can maybe go into that, you know into depth more but Um, the marriage is focused around um, creating a pure blood lineage.

04:05

So moon proclaimed himself as being sinless And thereby having all these mass marriages.

04:12

Um From from those marriages would produce like sinless children So my parents were the first generation that kind of joined and I would say it really blew up in america like around Like the 70s 80s.

04:25

I'm not too good with dates But um, and I was born 92 So I was

04:30

I was considered second generation. They would call everyone who was born From these these mass marriages, uh were second generation

04:38

Um, they would call us blessed children. We were born without the original sin, right? um from the fall so that basically

04:45

You know is that we were uh, we're told that we were no longer part of satan's lineage we were pure right, um that's kind of uh

04:54

I don't know if that if that clarifies some things of like how I was raised So it was this weird dichotomy of like feeling very special But then never really being good enough.

05:05

Um Yeah, very very works based. How did your parents get into it? Um, so my my dad's actually from austria and my mother is american

05:15

Um, and they were in an arranged marriage in new york Um, so I don't know if you ever if you researched some of this stuff

05:21

But one of their biggest mass marriages was I think in 82 in medicine square garden in new york And they're very big about um cross cultural cross cultural marriages um, and also like uniting all world religions which we can definitely get into too because The bible goes into that.

05:39

Yeah. Um Um yeah, um, so one of the things too is so when you talk about the uh,

05:45

Going back to like how things originated. So, uh sung young moon. He initially Like walter marr was kind of making a comparison in kingdom of the cults of him to joseph smith, right?

05:56

so apparently he had a point where he Claims to have had sort of a private revelation or an encounter with jesus and this is sort of where he got

06:04

At age 16 at age 16 and this was where He realized that he was the second he was sort of the the messiah of the messiah.

06:12

Well, he so uh What he claims is that when he was 16, so just kind of backtrack he grew up.

06:20

Um, his parents were actually I think daoist Um, and they were like kind of poor farmers.

06:27

He grew up that and then they converted I think 1930 to the presbyterian church um

06:33

But he received some revelation at age 16 on a mountaintop on easter sunday

06:39

Jesus came down to him and basically was asking him to fulfill his mission so That's what their whole doctrine is based off of is that jesus did not fulfill his mission.

06:50

He only um Was able to bring salvation spiritually And that um, reverend moon had to complete complete his mission, right?

06:58

Now you say uh, i'll jump in here too in a second to andrew but um, So we want to make sure we define terms because a lot of times what cults will do

07:06

Is that they'll use language kind of the same way how mormons will say how we need to return to our heavenly father, right?

07:14

And while in many ways you could sort of use that terminology to to explain orthodox christianity

07:20

They mean fundamentally different things. So there's always a language barrier when it comes to the cults

07:26

So when they talk about jesus's mission, uh from a christian perspective from a biblical perspective you're thinking about jesus christ coming to live a perfect life to live the live the perfect life that we can never live and to be the

07:38

Perfect sacrifice so we could have our sin exchanged for his righteousness by faith in him like fundamental orthodox christianity

07:46

But what he taught and you can explain this to us is that it wasn't

07:51

Jesus's purpose wasn't just to die for the sins of the world. It was to get married. Yes yeah, and that's where they take things out of context, especially when they say like um when the bible refers to the bride of jesus, which is the church, but they take that literally as in Jesus was supposed to have a literal biological wife um, just you know, and so um

08:13

They believed that jesus was supposed to come And that his disciples were supposed to find him a bride

08:18

He was supposed to get married and have children and create a pure blood lineage But because of the lack of faith of his disciples

08:26

Or whatever happened that he had to go the way of the cross that that was not god's intention um, and Basically, he he wasn't able to fulfill his his mission thereby, you know

08:39

Moon saying I need to fulfill the mission have a family. Um Yeah I want to I want to hinge back real quick to the the vision account too

08:47

So they do claim like hana was saying, uh on easter morning, but actually so they say it was april 17th 1936 it was easter morning, but if you actually just have a calculator you can go back into calendars

08:58

Uh, easter 17 1936 was a friday not a sunday let alone easter sunday, right?

09:04

Yeah, let alone easter sunday Exactly like so it's just not even it's like just just going into it is really interesting

09:09

But also the parallels between joseph smith and moon is the fact that the first vision

09:15

They don't really actually even know the real date it happened So there's arguments between them right between him being uh, the age 16 or the age 17

09:24

They've just given us a date now Just like how we can see there's multiple first vision accounts with uh, joseph smith

09:31

They just kind of agree upon one, but they don't actually have solid historical fact There are all these blurry facts that kind of shift over time depending on you know, what's necessary, right?

09:41

So really so and how does this affect you because we always talk about how Theology affects people or bad theology hurts people.

09:48

Um, so What how from your vantage point then is that your your parents would have been first generation?

09:54

They actually participated in one of these marriage ceremonies Uh with sung young moon and in fact if you just look up mooney's mass marriage on youtube

10:02

You'll see tons of accounts for that. I think vice has some documentaries and it's been featured a whole bunch of different times but So their idea was that you would create

10:11

The second generation they'd be known as the you talk about the two we know as the blessed children, right?

10:18

So it means that your parents would have view you in a very unique way Yes, um, and you probably have a unique unique view of yourself

10:26

I mean kind of told that you know, you probably i'm assuming you probably grew up with friends that were not in your church

10:32

Right, and so it's like how would you have the mindset as a child being that you're a blessed? You're want this blessed child specifically chosen because your parents were in this marriage by the second messiah

10:43

Versus just your friend across the street Yeah, I mean um

10:48

I you know from a young age. I always knew Intuitively that something was pretty off about.

10:55

Um The church I was always questioning everything. So When I was told that I was like born without Its original sin and that I was sort of just you know, they they really exalted like oh the blessed children

11:06

We would even like our parents would have to bow to us. There was a lot of bowing and a lot of um

11:12

Yeah, uh, I guess asian tradition because moon's from korea and even their you know, their holy land

11:18

Um is is in korea. Uh -huh. Um so Being being kind of exalted and having this pressure put on you and saying like you are god's hope for the world

11:29

But then you look around you look at your family. You look at other they call them blessed families, right? And you're seeing how messed up and dysfunctional it is.

11:37

It just didn't make sense And that's what sinless looks like this is your idea of sinless is all this dysfunction

11:43

It's like you have to change the definition of what sin even is. Yeah How did that function? How did that work like growing up in in church?

11:51

How was there like counseling or anything like that? like saying that there's you know issues going on in your life or even having to address sin issues like How do how do you think about your own thoughts in that sense when you're growing up?

12:02

It's like well i'm supposed to be sinless, but i'm having these thoughts that I I know are sinful, right? You know, like how how does counseling work in the unification church with?

12:11

uh the blessed children um, I wouldn't even really say that there's Uh any proper counseling?

12:19

um You know, I think that's why unfortunately Um, so many people come out of cults and unification church with just so much mental health

12:27

Um, and that was me too, you know before I I came to christ or he came to me, you know, but um you know, you're the the

12:37

Really sad thing about it is that um, they would preach repentance and they would preach sin

12:43

But they never offered grace and forgiveness. And so you're in this constant cycle of like, okay

12:49

So i'm told that i'm um, you know, I don't have this original sin that i'm god's hope for the world yet I'm thinking things

12:56

I shouldn't think and why am I so messed up? Right, and then i'm just basically trying to chase my tail and they're they they talk about indemnity

13:04

So you have to and paying indulgences or you might have issues from you know, some ancestor committed this sin

13:11

So, um, you have to go restore and liberate your ancestors and that's a whole other other thing um

13:18

So all this extra unnecessary guilt just out of kind of nowhere Yeah, so you're just kind of like in this muck and mire of guilt and shame um and just basically, you know, um trying to compensate and make up for Um just where you fall short um, so they do these things called um,

13:35

I would say like indulgences or um just paying paying indemnity for Uh, the sins that you paid rather than looking for christ that was you know, everything was paid for on the cross um, you're you're trying to um

13:51

You know just pay for those things yourself So what takes place during those ceremonies so people your ancestors guilt upon you?

13:57

What was that you have your ancestors guilt kind of upon you that you have to help as well? Yeah, they call it hereditary sin.

14:03

So, um yeah, so in korea, they um They have a place called cheongpyeong and it's sort of like this

14:10

This marble city all dedicated to unification church members and a lot of them like flock throughout the year um

14:18

You know and uh, it's all built upon really sort of ancestral veneration or ancestral worship um, so people go to these they have these massive halls where you sit in rows very organized rows and you have these korean leaders just kind of walking around and you have a stage of people um singing and dancing to a very like um

14:41

Systematic beat and you're you're hitting actually parts of your body to liberate yourself of maybe evil spirits or Yeah, and um, and then you know

14:55

And just um Yeah, so they they they they worship ancestors.

15:01

They you know, talk to the dead. Um, all those good things. Yeah Yeah, and then yeah, so also what

15:09

I was curious I mean your outline you talked about so Being someone who's second generation, yeah, you're essentially because a lot of this has to do with lineage

15:17

Um, you know, it's about and also it's very generational focused. There's a big family aspect a generational aspect to it, but you'd written down that Second generation that you're viewed that you're viewed as pure And in god's lineage and you were and so your parents and first generation they were in satan's lineage

15:36

Prior to sun young moon prior to like the marriage ceremony. Yes, and then but Even though you're you're viewed as you would be one of the people in second generation

15:44

He's viewed as a blessed child, but they would say you still have five percent responsibility. Yes But god's 95 and you have to do the five percent, right?

15:54

So what does that five percent look like? That would include like getting matched and going to the this, you know, the holy marriage ceremony um

16:04

You know, uh having having children, you know If I had children say if I was born or I was uh married to another second generation

16:12

And then had children they would be like third generation. That's just kind of like Advancing the kingdom in their eyes.

16:19

Um And be reading all of um moon's speeches um

16:25

And they have different rituals and things they do like they have something called uh, hundo k Um, they use a lot of uh, korean language

16:34

Um, so we would be reciting pledges, uh in korean at like 5 00 a .m. A lot of bowing um

16:42

Different things like that, but I would say the biggest thing was around uh revolved around the the holy marriage ceremony

16:49

That's interesting And then going to to korea is a big thing as well So yeah, tell them about the the korea aspect because in many ways this is

16:58

I mean, I don't know how much people in the unification church can do that right now Because of covid because literally everything is locked down but typically

17:08

They would uh, see this almost as sort of like a holy pilgrimage in many ways in islam

17:13

They would see that doing doing their their pilgrimage to mecca right is something that's very unique Uh for them, but just tell them just a little bit about that as well, too

17:22

Yeah, so, um Uh going to korea and to their you know, their holy land.

17:28

That's I wouldn't that's not like a requirement But it's definitely very it's encouraged um, especially if people are dealing with um uh certain sins um that are unexplainable they'll say well, it's

17:42

Probably because of some ancestor, you know did this this sin, um, or some medium will tell them um, you know, you should go to go to korea and um

17:53

You know do all these rituals and stuff like that. Um, that's that's sort of their their way of um, just I guess, uh

18:04

What did I say just? Yeah, i'm kind of blanking right now

18:09

I I have a question. I'm just really really curious if as a second generation unification member like a perfect child you're sinless

18:18

Why do you have five percent of your salvation left to earn if you're already sinless?

18:24

so they they believe that second generation are Um born without the original sin, so they they oh so you can still commit actual sins and then yeah, you can still have other other sins and the original sin is based on the foundation that So what did you were you able to research anything about the fall?

18:42

Like what their belief is what the fall of adam and eve was did and that was insane I never even heard anything like that.

18:47

Yeah drew do me a favor Tell me what did you when you looked into that tell me about what did you find out about that? Yeah, so there is well correct me because you have been in this way longer than I have which has been for just a number of hours, but um

19:01

There unlike in scripture romans chapter 5 speaks abundantly clearly to the fact that Adam sinned and we all fell in adam and that there are two different representative heads of all of humanity

19:17

And either you're in adam and you're condemned Or you're in christ and you have the free gift of justification and life eternal life um

19:27

When adam sinned according to scripture in genesis 3 all Everyone fell into sin with him

19:34

Um, and all of his descendants are now sinners like, uh, so many theologians have said we do not um

19:43

We're not sinners because we commit acts of sin, but we commit acts of sin. We sin because we're sinners by nature the

19:52

Understanding and I want you to correct me If i'm wrong of the fall according to sun young moon is that eve had

20:06

Sex with satan. Yes, and then She was she had this kind of original sin from satan himself

20:13

And then she passed that sin on from herself to adam right by subsequently having sex with adam and then all

20:22

Original all the stain of original sin came down the line through sex because of that original unholy union of satan with eve and then every

20:35

Subsequent sexual union that took place in every other person born after them uh Has this mark of satan as a result of that?

20:44

Is that correct? That's absolutely correct. Yeah Okay, that's that's and that's why they they focus so much around the the marriage ceremony and yeah

20:51

Having like a pure blood lineage Um, and if you actually go back and and uh, dr

20:56

Walter martin's book he talks about like in the early church when reverend moon started the church

21:01

He would do these things called blood cleansing um And I read about that.

21:08

That was that made my blood boil. I'll be honest Yeah, tell for anyone just uh, can you explain to them?

21:13

Uh, just so the audience can get context to what what was that? What was blood cleansing like during the early days of the unification church

21:22

Yeah, so, um because moon was seen as someone that was sinless Um a lot of the the women in the early church

21:30

And he later got a lot of accusation from it from like the authorities and stuff in korea but um, he would have uh sex with a lot of the um, younger members women

21:42

Um, I don't I think some of them were were married or just you know Just women in the church and in that way he was able to purify

21:49

Their blood lineage and then of course that woman would be with her husband and that way that their whole and then their family would

21:56

Subsequently be cleansed. Yeah, that is disgusting. That is evil. Um Quick question moon according to his own teaching.

22:04

He did not have original sin, correct? Yeah, so One question I had was if moon did not have original sin

22:11

How did moon's own parents avoid passing original sin onto him when they had sex to conceive him wouldn't according his own theology

22:18

He received the original sin from his own parents who had the mark of satan still passing it on to him.

22:24

How did he avoid that? Yeah, I don't know if moon actually goes into that. Um I think uh some people what

22:32

I remember hearing is that once he received I guess the Um the vision from or when jesus came to him that kind of wiped everything in the past Yeah, that's what

22:41

I remember hearing growing up, but that's convenient to be honest There's like a lot of blurred lines, right?

22:46

Um, and a lot of stuff that's you'll hear contradictory things from different members So yeah, forgive me if i'm not super clear.

22:53

Oh, no, don't worry I mean, I actually would be surprised if um, if the church had an answer to that question

22:58

Yeah, and in fact you're one of the things too. It means I love the fact that you're on here because like you're you're

23:03

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, it's awesome Like you you brought that up and you know, but it's most of the time, you know

23:10

We would view a lot of people would just view why would someone? Logically get into something like that's who's making such a claim

23:18

But most of the time when people get into a cult, you know, usually they're kind of They kind of bring these things up progressively

23:26

And usually when you're totally convinced that this person is the messiah and they have this great and transcendent experience

23:32

Like thinking through what you just brought up drew logically It's it's usually not something that's going to be

23:39

Like people aren't going to think that way because once you kind of get to the point Yeah, once you're in that far, yeah to you that you have to do all these other works um messiah, so like your condition

23:49

Like you must like that logical reasoning must at some way be faulty because he's just the messiah and you just have to You know believe it right, right exactly

23:57

So I think once you get in you'd probably too is that once you get to a point where you're kind of brought

24:04

Through that step by step Uh gradually you get to the point where you're not thinking through that type of reasoning.

24:10

Well, what about sung young moon's parents? Uh anything like that? um, but maybe also to explain some of the processes of the what happens in in the uh marriage ritual because also

24:24

This will this will correlate too with what they believe about god because he sung young moon was born to parents who are confucian uh who believed in confucius and so They he kind of blended in a lot of eastern ideas

24:37

Spiritism and kind of blended that in with christianity and in very ways in many ways we talked about yesterday

24:44

Hana, it's it's similar to our series on the enneagram because that's another example

24:49

You're kind of seeing a hybrid of like with richard rohr and a lot of eastern Ideas, uh trying to blend them into christianity

24:58

But maybe just explain too for people can understand what are what takes place in the ritual like religiously, uh during the marriage ceremony, um

25:10

And how does that connect to spiritism and just tell them a little about what takes place during those ceremonies so people can understand yeah, so um

25:19

I I personally have never attended one, right? Um, all my siblings have Um, but as far as I know, they're extremely long drawn out ceremonies.

25:28

Um, sorry, what are these ceremonies? The merit like the mass marriage. Okay. Yeah um so the marriage ceremonies,

25:37

I mean, um Some some people they'll they'll go and there's like matchings held beforehand before the actual marriage ceremony where people will be

25:45

Um matched by and you'll have like some people that are mediums. Um, I think in the early days when

25:51

Uh moon reverend, you know sun and moon he was actually doing the the matchings he was um

25:58

He was uh being guided by different spirits um You know finding you know, which man would fit perfectly which with with which with whatever woman?

26:09

um, but later on he stopped doing I think some of the the marriage ceremonies and it kind of evolved in this this um,

26:17

State where the actual parents of the children would start choosing Um spouses for their children and nowadays, um kids that are that are born into into the church

26:27

And we'll kind of just court each other just kind of on their their own terms and you know They'll have some counseling here and there but in terms of the marriage ceremony, um, i'm not really sure what actually goes on specifically, um, they're just taking vows basically to be married under Um, you know the the they call them the true parents of mankind reverend moon and his wife um and uh

26:52

Yeah, a lot of them are are international marriages So some people will will show up and they'll have these, you know, these matchings where?

26:59

You know one day they just get matched to a complete stranger from From africa or from japan and then the next day they're married and they go off and you know start a family.

27:10

So Yeah, so a lot of different different cases. Um Yeah, but you're saying something about spirit how he is sort of orchestrates spiritism, uh within the marriage ceremony

27:21

Yeah, um, i'm not sure really how that works. Um, there there's a lot of uh, different like leaders that would

27:27

I think come in and probably help and assist with the matchings and stuff because there was just you know

27:32

Thousands he'd have some uh marriage ceremonies that were up to 300 000 people Um all at one time all at one time.

27:40

Yeah um, but Yeah They used a lot of like different mediums and spiritists.

27:47

I'm not sure how he actually, you know was working with them. But uh, Their their view of I mean just for an example his his son died in an automobile accident in 1984

27:57

And he found relief by contact with a spiritist who he then hired to work in his staff

28:05

So he had spirit Spiritists all around him constantly. So also if you think in terms of how he acted, of course if he has this messiah complex

28:14

Just thinking in being there He can be in quote -unquote contact with other spirits and just say this is what they told me

28:21

Right, but the but the issue is is are you really hearing things from jesus or the holy spirit? Are you getting information from?

28:28

Muhammad. Yeah, that sounds safe like because he didn't just claim to contact let's say jesus in these visions

28:34

He also said that he saw buddha That he had conversations with him with muhammad with all kinds of different spirits, right?

28:41

So when we think about how spiritism works in forms of of moon It doesn't necessarily mean like a seance has to be happening during these uh wedding ceremonies

28:51

He can just say what he wants and just attribute it to spirits But also one thing I found interesting while doing some research

28:57

It says that every couple after they get married they spend the following 40 days in celibacy And then they consummate the marriage for three days only to practice three additional years of celibacy

29:08

That is such control. I that that's the that's the thing, right if you think about the the original context of the fall uh making it focus around sex

29:19

It's all a part of control and then depriving you of it for so long Yeah, and and that's like, you know first 157

29:25

We see it happening all the time. Jim jones did very similar things with people that were married. He was trying to Control the relationship control the family which you then can mentally be there all the time in their lives

29:38

Even when you're not around, right? Yeah, and in fact, you know, this is one of those things too is that you know, uh,

29:43

One of the one of my favorite authors. He's not a christian but uh, steve hassan Uh has a book combating cult mind control

29:49

Uh, and it's just a fantastic book and his whole story too is that he got recruited And got indoctrinated into the moonies and he ended up being uh, deprogrammed which

29:58

I Drew you watched me last night, too. Yeah, it was called ticket to heaven. Yep, which i'm fully convinced

30:04

It's it's loosely based on steve hassan's story Um, even why it doesn't mention the moonies. I just it's

30:11

It's ridiculously similar. Uh, they they probably had to put that legal disclaimer out, but it's it actually came out the year

30:17

I was born 1981 but it's it's just very interesting seeing the control that happens and While I appreciate what steve hassan has done in his work both freedom of mind and combating cult mind control

30:29

I believe that his bite model outside of a biblical worldview You can't give an ultimate accounting for the behavior control the information control the thought control the emotional control

30:40

All that stems from the theology, uh, which is really a distortion based off a distortion and misinterpretation of of the bible and of god's word

30:49

Um, but also what I want to do as a foundation as we kind of really kind of get into Your story and what it was

30:56

What it was like we were kind of explaining people the the kind of just an over a basic overview of some of the fundamental beliefs, uh

31:04

And so in the same way how he was born to confucian parents Uh, I mean he had his parents were confucian or believed in confucius and so he blended in a lot of eastern ideas

31:14

Um explain some of the theology as far as what what what did sun yong moon believe and teach about god

31:21

Uh in g and and who jesus was and also the holy spirit because in all those aspects you're going to see

31:27

Uh things blended into them because we were talking about that yesterday, right? so the biggest thing about god is that um

31:35

And I was uh researching up on this is that um moon Uh, the way that he interpreted the bible

31:42

A lot of I don't know if it was it was the entire bible He interpreted this way, but he used the i -ching which comes from daoism um, and so the way that he describes god and even in you know, their their doctrine the divine principle is that god

31:56

Um is of dualistic characteristics so that he's yin and yang male and female um dark and light and um also that uh

32:05

God has a second nature that creation is like the the visible manifestation of god

32:11

Um also known as basically panantheism, right? Yeah. Um That's their view of god.

32:17

And also they they paint this picture what I realized. Um early on in my walk uh with christ is that um the way that Their their view of god is that god

32:29

He's painting this picture that he's he's sort of like this needy god. He's dependent on man to um complete his mission

32:36

Um, and that he's yeah, he's reliant on man. Um That's that's the the biggest

32:43

Biggest thing about what their beliefs are and who god is um in terms of the holy spirit They all they remember growing up and what they would say is that the holy spirit is the feminine aspect of god um

32:55

I I wouldn't be able to go too much into detail about you know, what that what that really is um

33:01

Their views on that and then in terms of jesus, they do not believe that jesus is god They believe he's the son of god, but not god himself and that They don't believe in the resurrection

33:12

They believe that when he when he arose it was just sort of like it wasn't a bodily resurrection. Yeah, it was like spiritual

33:17

Yeah, like a gnostic kind of just appearing. Yeah, exactly Okay Yeah, and so so that's so again just understand that this is the framework in which you grew up and this is what you're surrounded

33:28

By so again, you have a theology. That's a distortion of who jesus is And and and also just of the holy trinity, um, because you have misinterpretations of god the father jesus the holy spirit um, you have a distorted view of salvation, um, and also almost a distorted view of your parents who are just biblically, they're just Fallen fallible people that ultimately are going to hurt and to fail you

33:54

But through sung young moon's view is that they were part of this first and pure and holy generation that were cut off from the seat of satan to Uh being part of this holy lineage via sung young moon now, you're the second generation so it's all

34:10

Just all things that were kind of distorted. Um versus so in other ways There's not because you're put on such a pedestal right?

34:17

There's no like how do you even process? just things just difficulties and dysfunctions, uh in Just growing up.

34:26

I mean every fact every family on some level is dysfunctional, you know, but How do you even process normal dysfunctions

34:34

Like there's no point of reference to do that, right? There isn't and that's what obviously like that led me into like going to the new age after You know, um, because I was just I was so broken and so confused

34:46

That um, I was genuinely seeking healing and seeking answers and seeking truth um, and uh, you know as you know from from Just the background of a moon and his theology, um is very tied into new age.

35:00

Yeah Um, so it kind of feels like a pillow for your head coming out of yeah It was interesting because it was like I felt so suppressed as a kid.

35:08

So new age kind of offered that um giving the appearance that it was like spiritual, you know and kind of um,

35:17

Uh going towards truth, but it gave me the freedom to do what I wanted to do and right. Um, yeah

35:22

Yeah, but you said so in other words so up until I mean growing being born up until age 14 You you would say you pretty much had a will be a normal childhood

35:32

But in the back of your head, you just knew that something was kind of off Um was there what were things that just you observed?

35:39

I mean, it's always interesting We've had episodes where we've talked with people who kind of grew up You know jehovah's wit in the watchtower bible and tract society or jehovah's witness and you know

35:48

They obviously just felt out of place because they couldn't celebrate birthdays and or we couldn't celebrate christmas or these other holidays with everyone else

35:55

So there's just ways and sometimes you felt a bit out of place. Um, What just ages 0 to 14?

36:01

What can you explain? Maybe any unique given the whole culture that really is fundamentally that's really

36:08

The it's it's the it flows from the theology of sun young moon and what was taught

36:13

But what would be just some unique things that just you experienced from your vantage point, you know

36:19

Up until 14 years old that was unique, uh that you remember. Um, Yeah, just that what were some things you remember seeing or experiencing?

36:29

Yeah, I think um, and we talked about this yesterday like, um you know,

36:34

I love my parents, but I I I something that I I realized or I kind of observed as a young child was um seeing my parents, um who had dedicated their entire lives to this movement and yet they were um

36:52

I could see that they were like really broken and and lost and um pushing hard, you know to um advance sort of uh

37:00

The unification's view of what the kingdom was. Um, and also just not understanding

37:07

Why my parents were together because they didn't know each other and all the like the first generation when they were

37:12

Uh matched and and blessed into this movement. Um you know, they they uh, there wasn't any um

37:21

There was a lack of affection that I think any kid um that seeks that um

37:28

Just parents that love each other and um have a healthy family um that that wasn't exploit like That wasn't um expressed in my family.

37:38

So something always felt Off as a kid, um, it made me question. Um, why they were why were they they were together?

37:46

and then the only reason they were really together was Um because of their dedication to moon and and his mission

37:53

Um, so that was the biggest thing and then I also remember like when passion of christ came out as a kid

37:59

Um, I was really young but I remember watching it. I didn't understand everything but I remember seeing um

38:05

Jesus being crucified and I was actually just filled with so much emotion and tears And I was like so moon is claiming to be the second coming

38:15

Of of christ but something just it pricked my heart so different. I was like this doesn't yeah, this doesn't add up This doesn't make sense.

38:22

Yeah to moon his death on the cross was a failure Yeah, because he didn't have children and create the true family and you're seeing the pain represented in a movie of course of Jesus the creator of heaven and earth all things visible and invisible portrayed on screen

38:38

And you're like this doesn't seem like it was a failure. This seems like total accomplishment for my failures

38:44

And what I find really interesting too thinking about growing up how you would have grown up I I know there's a form of ancestral veneration that goes on but it seems like it's almost flip -flopped

38:54

Right. So like your parents have you you're the second generation. So you are born without this original sin

38:59

So you said there's times where they bowed down to you so I can see a manifestation of the spirit that they worshipped

39:07

Showing itself that their faith and their hope is not in the true and living god. Jesus christ. It's actually in their children

39:13

Yeah, you're bowing to each other to you know, kids bow to their parents their parents bow to them Um, yeah, it's really it's really an interesting thing to think about.

39:23

Yeah, it's really really really odd It's very man -centered right for sure. But yeah when I watched um passion of christ,

39:29

I mean, um I didn't obviously understand theologically anything about the bible or whatever but Um, it was

39:35

I remember it being such a deep and profound moment as a kid And um, it just was yeah, it's pretty pretty significant

39:43

It's a weird juxtaposition with the truth about history that it all revolves around christ that this is the central

39:50

You know pinpoint changing part of history the revelation of christ him taking that that god took on flesh and died on the cross

39:56

Since that's true. Yeah, and we all experience Live life in his creation.

40:02

Once you watch it regardless of how you're brought up. There's something that happens, right? Your heart's either softened or your heart's hardened.

40:08

Yeah, and it seems like the lord was softening your heart in that regard Yeah Yeah, and then um, and that's also

40:14

I mean you talked about In kind of growing up. I mean as much as you are told how special you are and how unique you are and above everyone else

40:23

There's almost even as a young child you kind of felt there's sort of like this You you put it down as a suffocating sense of responsibility

40:30

And possible expectations to kind of live up to yeah, so it's almost like in your heart of hearts Even as a young child, you kind of knew you're giving this yoke that was

40:40

Maybe like unattainable. Yeah, or just like how do I really live up to it? But how do I maybe like you?

40:47

What was it? Maybe like you kind of knew deep down inside That there's no way I can live up to this but who do

40:52

I even talk to you to say that right almost like there's an atmosphere In our episodes on people who in jehovah's witnesses where you kind of have to put this happy face all the time

41:02

But there's everyone has their stuff that you in their junk that you have to kind of work and talk through. Yeah, but In in the sociological environment where you're all god's special and holy lineage

41:13

Like where's there to talk about that? I mean, what what what was that like too? I mean in between that age in that age frame of just What would explain that a little bit too like in terms of just um, just emotionally psychologically as a kid.

41:28

Yeah um, it was I mean just like I said, I I Just felt like constantly under pressure that I had to meet this expectation and I think a lot of cults work that way because you're you're constantly trying to You know just get to the next best level

41:44

And realizing you know, you can you can't do that. Um I really just trying to attain this this peace the state of peace

41:52

Um, but it's it's all focused around. Um, you know workspace righteousness, right?

41:58

What can I do to um, you know basically feel better about myself or what can

42:04

I do to you know, honor my parents more or Yeah, so there was never any any solution.

42:10

I was just basically like Chasing my tail all the time. It's hard to be jesus When you can't be jesus, yeah, exactly.

42:18

Yeah, and that was a big thing too. I think there's some similarities between mormonism and um, you know unification church members is that you're

42:26

You're kind of like put in this position of like you're like this little god, you know, um

42:32

And so you're you know, um, that's what I was basically trying to do is just save myself

42:38

Um, because I was never never given that that gives me a question What did they believe about essentially the afterlife then right so like say you die what what happens then

42:48

Yeah, that's the thing. There's no like assurance on like where you're gonna go when you die They you touched up a little bit on it.

42:54

Like they believe in um, like nine levels of of the spirit world um, and that's

43:00

They so some of their beliefs and what i've heard is that when you die? Um You go somewhere in the spirit world and um, just based on whatever

43:11

Whatever works you do here um, but kind of what uh, I would say um, like Grants you maybe access to a secure place in the heavenly kingdom is accepting

43:26

You know moon as you as the second coming as the messiah going to the holy marriage ceremony Um, but then your five percent's basically left to you that you have to do all these other works um, and then

43:37

Yeah, whatever you do on earth that kind of translates into the spirit world and whatever generations that you leave behind you your lineage

43:45

Um their works basically account to levels that you're able to reach in the spirit world. We've got this weird blending of Lds theology and roman catholicism with like merits, you know what?

43:55

I mean? Yeah, I think it's interesting It seems like it's like schrodinger's cat and russian roulette and rolling the dice all at once in terms of where you're gonna end up After you're dead, even if you're an extremely faithful member of this church, right?

44:08

So the moonies were also known they kind of had a reputation for their sociological um that mean in the 70s it was interesting too because walter marr talks about how they are kind of known as the

44:19

The cult that would brainwash people. I mean they the big aspects again Steve hassan had was deprogrammed after he has an amazing story too, which

44:27

I think again the movie, uh ticket to heaven was based off of it but he um Yeah, but he got to a point where he is deprogrammed and eventually it'd be that Had to stop because a lot of times deprogramming involved actual kidnapping which is against the law

44:42

So it was just kind of complex but they were kind of known for that Um, and eventually, you know sun and moon kind of really did a bunch of pr stuff to turn that around But they were really known for just very much using

44:56

The sociological aspects and undue influence and group things to get people to think and move one way um, so i'm curious too and on any way that you would experience that because In in the outline you you had put down that you had spent hours of your childhood going to these quote providential speeches

45:12

Sitting on floors for many hours with hundreds of members and many times the speeches were in korean Yeah, so you've had little like you would have sometimes translators and stuff there.

45:22

Yeah Um, but yeah, that was a big part of it, you know And I think that's something to touch up on is um, and I think how a lot of cults operate

45:30

And just how I remember from my own experience growing up was you're constantly busy So you're never given really time to really think for yourself and um, we were talking yesterday, uh, jeremiah and I um that I remember when

45:45

I was going to this boarding school Uh that I would make excuses to go on like 21 day.

45:51

No, no talking fast like from anybody but it was sort of like my way of uh being able to like get alone time and really think for myself and You know reevaluate like what this all was about but it was constantly, you know, go go go and you had

46:07

You know this speech after another speech after you know, it was all doing doing doing and not really um

46:14

You know and then also being I remember so many times. Um being accused of like being selfish for taking time

46:21

By myself, um to just you know, go for a walk or eat alone and you know kind of separate myself from the group

46:28

So everything had to done Had to be done in like the public eye. Why why 21 day fast?

46:33

Is there a specific reason behind that? They're really big on numbers. Um, so they have like they call them like providential numbers

46:40

I don't honestly know like the because because I was I was reading and uh supposedly become a member

46:45

You actually have to be part of a 21 day work group. Yeah, right So that's why

46:51

I was like clicking in my head I wonder why 21 day fast but imagine like yeah Like you said sitting on the floor listening to like korean and all this stuff going on for 21 days straight

47:00

That's that's called programming not not being with anyone else for 21 days except this and you can't go to the bathroom

47:05

Yeah, isolated group of people that is and you're being programmed like straight up Yeah and so in in combating cult mind control going back to that and and again if you guys want to look it's definitely a great book to read and and uh

47:17

There's actually if you look up I mean this episode There's an episode where he is on the joe rogan experience and if you look up steve asan joe rogan

47:25

Obviously in that episode, there's some there's some colorful language that's used So if you have sensitive ears, you need to be aware of that But he kind of goes a lot more into the his whole story and in that he talked about when he initially

47:36

When he was in college, he went to this retreat And in it that happened to where he was not permitted to uh, he was always alone

47:44

Uh, he was never allowed to be alone He was always with someone and then you know, whenever he'd had a question they'd always say.

47:50

Oh, we'll get to you We'll get back to you on that. We'll answer that later on more more will be revealed at another time almost similar to the world missing society church of god and When michael winger was talking when the questions get too tough.

48:01

Yeah, it's always Yeah, but it's always it's always two peas in a pod when it comes to that sort of thing It's always this fast rapid fire techniques, which ultimately doesn't allow someone to think critically

48:10

But he had that happen too where you know, it would also be a lot of sleep deprivation He couldn't sleep a whole lot.

48:16

And so it was actually within a very short amount of time. He completely Believed that you know sun ying moon was the messiah to really prior to that I mean he had a background just growing up jewish and he didn't really have any sort of Strong religious connotations probably 21 days jerry.

48:33

Yeah, probably it was a very short amount of time Yeah, they take your phones away too. Like when I went to school with um, and that's

48:41

You know just uh fyi not every Unification church member who was born into the church like I was went to you know had

48:49

I had more of like the intense side of it, you know, some kids just grew up an oral family

48:54

You know church every sunday, but I went to like an actual, you know, it's pretty much in this bubble of um

49:01

Kids that grew up with me and then you had all these church, you know teachers that were not accredited. Um Uh, and they they you know, they really did not um uh

49:14

Encourage like I mean they did encourage you academically, but it was mainly just they wanted you to understand their doctrine um

49:22

And but yeah taking like phones away. They did they discouraged against from like having relations outside Um, I mean you would go fundraising fundraising fundraising was a big aspect um, and uh

49:34

The the movie ticket to heaven, um, they displayed that pretty well, you know, very well. So yeah and Even lying, you know, they wouldn't even discourage it if it if it uh, you know if it benefited benefits the organization

49:50

Wasn't it wasn't it interesting? And again, if you if you're listening here, definitely it's on free on youtube watch ticket to heaven

49:55

I was I found it fascinating when you talk about lying and I don't know if you you experienced this or if you ever witnessed

50:01

Someone do this, but there's a point in which they are selling flowers. Um, and maybe this will carry over into the second episode

50:08

We kind of talk about the the boarding school you went to. Um, that was uh, it was center

50:13

It was a uniform. It was actually uh, it was a unification church school that you went to right?

50:19

So in the in the film, there's a point where uh, the main character protagonist who gets indoctrinated and becomes this sort of true believer in this mysterious cult

50:29

Which in many ways I would I was fully convinced. I'm like, yeah, this is definitely this sounds a lot like steve hassan's story

50:35

They're referring to the moonies. Yeah, but they're selling flowers and they go to a businessman. They say they're part of this, uh rehabilitation center um, yeah, but There's no rehabilitation center.

50:45

So the guy so The main character asked the other his other uh co -laborer or person he's with he goes

50:53

Didn't you just lie to that person? Yeah, right because well in the he I think he justified it by saying that well, ultimately you know satan is the ruler of this world and and all of Money all the money is satan's anyways, but somehow by us him giving this money to us

51:12

He's actually contributing to the kingdom. Yeah, and he basically unjustified the means so it didn't really matter that they were telling him that this

51:20

Lie, like they justified it and he would go out in wheelchairs and stuff and like they Yeah, they'd go out pretend that they were like crippled

51:28

I remember one time being out in the street with this guy and um, we were fundraising for This is was apart from the boarding school.

51:35

It was another um Uh, it was like mft, you know for the first generation They would have something called the mobile fundraising team

51:40

But then for second generation, they kind of evolved into this other program for second gen called stf special task force

51:49

Yeah, and you would go out and then you would fundraise to be you live in vans, um, you live in motels and um eat really really like Uh nutrient deficient food and then you go out and you fundraise, um for hours, um

52:05

And I remember going out with this one guy and he pretended he was blind and so people would feel feel bad and um, they would just you know donate and So we got and I remember

52:15

I mean we made we made tons of money one day Just going like to parking lots and walmarts and um, like gas stations in one day

52:24

I made like over a thousand dollars just talking to people on the streets And um, so you become you know really skilled with sales

52:31

Like that and it's crazy. It's crazy the industry I'll tell you a funny story real quickly is that um carmen who is also here at the studio

52:38

And he's one of our producers. He he was um feel he had some sort of uh project It was to some sort of film school.

52:44

And so he wanted to do this small Uh little clip where he wanted me to play a homeless person So I got this old beat -up flannel shirt and I got this old beanie and I think that in the film he just wanted me to portray this like homeless guy and I was gonna

52:58

Sit in front of the 7 -eleven and you know, someone's gonna come up and give me money or something like that So in it i'm just i'm just sort of portraying i'm like, all right

53:06

How do I portray you know a homeless person? but um I'm there and just like just and all of a sudden someone walks up to me that i'm expecting and it's like about to hand

53:14

Me a five dollar bill. I said no. No, i'm not homeless. I'm actually filming something for a special Uh to bring awareness like to actually help the solve this problem of homelessness, but I just noticed just in a short amount of time

53:27

Someone came up to me. I wasn't even trying to do that, but I just realized man. There's probably so much

53:34

Money that probably goes back and forth with that a whole lot of time I mean, there's obviously people that are in need that need real help

53:40

Um brother wade was just here a little while had some blessing bags Our church is doing a homeless outreach tonight, but it doesn't change the fact that there are people who use right?

53:48

What is the real reality of people that need help? To but use that and exploit that crisis, unfortunately.

53:56

Yeah, and the members would get um, that's I mean the real tragedy too is that a lot of so a lot of the first generation that joined the unification church um and I see this just with my parents and I I have compassion for them because I understand they came from really broken families and a lot of the people

54:11

Very vulnerable and also a lot of the people that joined in america were immigrants um And so they're you know kind of looking for a place to belong

54:20

But once you get on these these like fundraising teams and you're raising like I mean millions millions of dollars

54:26

Um, mostly coming in from japan america and parts of korea. Um, you know, it's all going to Basically the moon and their empire their estates they're living these crazy lavish lives

54:38

When all the members are suffering, I mean I had kids I had friends that just like grew up in just poverty

54:44

And their their parents would make a lot of money, but they just they donate everything to To the church.

54:50

Wow, it's it's this is how it says It says they often work for the mobilized fundraising teams this first generation 14 or more hours daily with little sleep and sparse food

55:00

And reverend moon. I hate saying reverend moon. I hate saying reverend But admitted that 82 car accidents occurred in one month because these people were so sleep deprived

55:11

Like they didn't care it's all about the money right it's all about buying more businesses about making more money in Increasing your wealth essentially.

55:20

Yes Yeah And in fact, that's how steve hassan got out of the moonies is that he was sleep deprived and he drove and this is somewhat depicted in the movie, uh in the movie ticket to heaven and I was like Yep, this is like steven steve hassan has to be consulting after this.

55:36

So And also one of these days we I really want to get steve hassan on the show at one of these points

55:41

I think that'd be a wonderful and fantastic conversation but What in in his story and steve hassan's story is that?

55:48

He was driving late at night and he drove his van off the road because he's going on two to three hours of sleep At night, which again is another aspect of uh, it doesn't happen with every single cult

55:58

But within the moonies another called sleep deprivation is a huge thing Uh happened both in with the branch davidians it happened with uh, jim jones in the people's temple

56:07

Scientologists. Yeah scientology, especially especially when the people's temple went down to goyanna Things like that, but he drove off the road and he ended up getting his leg like shattered in multiple places

56:18

The van was wrecked so bad They had to use the jaws of life to like pull the van apart to get him there

56:23

And so because he had to go to the hospital no ifs ands or buts that's when he finally was able to like His brain could slow down he could actually think for himself

56:33

Wow, and then he called the one person his sister and the reason why he called his sister is because she's the only one

56:38

Who kind of played neutral and didn't actually actively speak out against sun young moon because usually will happen

56:44

When you get indoctrinated you're usually into a cult You're given a unique identity that replaces your own identity

56:51

And so in many ways what steve hasan will talk about how you have your true self

56:57

But then you have your unique cult identity which almost suppresses that so many times you'll you'll interact with a cult member and it could be on the streets or it could be in real life and if Some of you may have experienced with a family member where all of a sudden it's almost like Something happens with them and you've seen it where all of a sudden they just start repeating the same

57:17

Verbatim statements, uh, whether it be a testimony Uh, whether it just sort of be their pre -programmed talking points

57:24

And and yeah, so a lot of times you'll just you'll see the person interchange in between their real self and their cult identity

57:32

So it's a fascinating thing to fluctuate between the two. So steve ended up calling his sister

57:38

And his sister says yeah, I promise I won't tell anyone she was lying But she ended up getting some people who at that time who were deprogrammers

57:46

He really couldn't resist them because he was confined to a hospital bed and his leg was shattered in multiple places

57:51

And it was very interesting and this is also depicted in the film where he got to a point where they the deprogrammers told steve hasan where all right, well if you

58:02

Just stay with us three days. And if you're not convinced, you know on song not on song

58:08

That's that world mission society church of god sung young moon is the messiah Then you can go and like you're free to go and he's like, okay, but during that process

58:17

He began to unravel and you know, they're asking questions They're asked what?

58:23

He was asked questions in ways to make actually make him think Versus just just the initial right, you know robotic response and once he kind of Like got in touch with his true self that he hadn't really been in touch with for years

58:38

He said he was like sobbing uncontrollably um So, yeah, it's it's just goes to show it's a very fascinating story and and again,

58:46

I just uh, it's It's interesting too, especially in relation to the moonies because that's something that you grew up and so that's kind of my tangent but yeah, um but yeah

58:56

I think what we'll do here is that I want to kind of go more into your story because we want to go into the aspects especially growing up in the school and Yeah, and kind of it's very interesting too because there's many aspects too with many times

59:10

A cult is centered around a specific leader. Yeah, but Usually once that leader passes away

59:17

It's a lot of things come up in regards to lineage because it's so focused around that one particular person Um, so we'll jump into that Given that what we cover in the first episode.

59:25

Is there any uh, Are there any last things you want to cover before we wrap up here or you want to bring up?

59:31

um One thing I wanted to bring up. Um you know one thing that that comes to mind quite often is that Um what people say about you know, the like the divine principle which is their text for unification church

59:44

Can you hold it up just to the camera so anyone anyone people can see? Yeah. Yeah, it's right there Yeah, we'll post on social media.

59:51

We'll post it again. But so yeah, tell them about that book in relation to that. Go ahead Yeah, so the divine principle is sort of like this this new revelation sort of like, you know with jehovah's witness and mormon this is like This is the the bible is not uh, you know the ultimate authority.

01:00:05

This is sort of this is above the bible Um, but what you see throughout the text is that you know, they just they cherry pick which most quilts do they just cherry pick from?

01:00:14

the bible Um, and one of the things they they say is that so moon He claims that this is like the new revelation the new truth right and um, they refer back to the parable when jesus is talking to Uh his disciples or to the pharisees and he's saying, you know,

01:00:29

I speak to you in parables But there's a day coming where i'll speak to you plainly. And so they claim that the divine principle is um the the plain speech of really what what um,

01:00:40

You know, the truth is all about it wasn't the bible is not um, it consists of the truth, but it's not the truth itself, right?

01:00:46

Yeah, so that's a that's a big that's a big that's a big point that a lot of unificationists bring up Um that oh, you know, jesus was always speaking of parables, but this just explains everything right?

01:00:57

Yeah Yeah, and so many ways what they'll do is that and this is they'll either take for they'll cherry a lot of times cults Will do what they'll do is that they'll cherry pick

01:01:03

Uh certain bible passages they'll take things out of context and a lot of times what they'll do is they'll take Aspects passages that are a little bit

01:01:12

Complex or confusing that kind of you know There's even scriptures that talk about how some of paul's words were difficult to decipher or to understand

01:01:20

And they'll take those areas that are confusing and will kind of fill in the blank almost in the same way how new it how the new age will take complex aspects of quantum physics or Neurology or Areas of science right now that are still

01:01:36

Expanding that we're just beginning to discover and they'll take they'll fill in the blanks with that So they'll even use a lot of times apocalyptic literature um in like revelation or or matthew 24 or use ways to you know

01:01:49

Incite, you know fear amongst their people saying that we're essentially the noah's ark. No one else can get out So there's a lot of different variables in play

01:01:55

Um, so what we'll do here is we'll go ahead and wrap up here for the first episode So, uh, thank you again for coming out to california

01:02:00

And i'm super excited to kind of jump into part two. Yeah, and I think we got a good flow going here So, uh, we're gonna take a quick, uh, five minute break on rm

01:02:09

Uh for you all it means that you got to wait a week, unfortunately, but we'll be back here next week for part two

01:02:15

So thank you all here for listening in and as always Uh, this is the brand new year with a lot of crazy a lot of time to expect the unexpected

01:02:23

So we are asking that you would prayerfully consider partnering with us if you've enjoyed this podcast the last couple years

01:02:29

And allow cultists to continue So if you feel like to do that go to the cultist show .com

01:02:35

go to the donate tab You can donate one time or monthly And we will talk to you guys, uh next week in part two of the unification church the moonies and sung young moon with hana

01:02:48

Hey Hana kasten. How do you how do you pronounce it? Hana castaneda castaneda