Cultish - Leaving the Moonies, Pt. 2

Opening Banter and Introductions

Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts. I am one of the co-hosts here. Welcome to 2021 everyone. I hope you all are surviving this crazy strange brave new world.

And now we have 1984 reasons to be super excited for this episode just throwing all the dystopian Crazy references that are now coming true apparently, but we're in tell that all happens. We're just gonna still roll the punches and have a good time.

So enter the super sleuth of the show. How are you, man?

I'm doing well besides having to burn all my books. So we're doing great.

Dystopian future. Hey, at least we'll be a warm for a little bit because it is kind of cold right now here in Arizona. So yeah. At least we all the book all the book burning can kind of keep us warm unless they're digital and we just think it canceled.

By all the let all the reptilian techno overlords, and you never really owned them in the first place. Let's yeah. That's another story. Yeah, so basically if you notice part in part two. We're probably now we've had a bunch of cold brew and alpha brain.

So now we're kind of like our neurons are firing in all cylinders but I am super excited for this episode because we are talking about the unification church the Mooney's and we are here with Hana Castaneda.

Yes, I did it. I did it. Yeah, I'm getting there and we are here with absolute truth or drew the intern or all the different it's absolute. Whatever you want, I mean, yeah, so you are you are the you are sort of like a backup Rhodes Scholar of sorts.

And you've got you had a couple different books here. You had a couple of different books on Greek and stuff you brought and you've kind of did you have a book here on you? Always seem you always seem to have some sort of book that at least one book that has something to do with Greek.

Yeah, so well I earlier I moved it just so it wouldn't be a cluttering up the table. But I had a Greek grammar in intro Greek grammar I'm teaching just one of the students just very beginning Greek at a apology and one of the teenagers and.

That has been a huge blessing really really fun. And then the other thing was Greek New Testament, which I wanted to open but it's like I have it on my computer. So I might as well just use it on my computer because it's easier.

Good good.

So you are the you are you are the master of languages here at least at least in comparison to me.

Master is that quite a strong word?

Yes.

Anyways, so anyways, I'm kind of jumping into our last episode. We're glad thank you again for coming out to California and you and you also you got to kind of hang out with some of the apology ladies last night.

And you did a cookie. We're there doing the cookie exchange and you had a good time there. Yeah, it was pretty fun. Okay, and then did they explain to you the just Jerry part of it because People know about this if you listen to episode of sheologians.

Someone to explain that to you the just Jerry aspect of that. We want to have some fun before we get started. Tell me about that. What are they? How do they explain that? Well, I kept referring to you as Jeremiah.

Right, they're like Jeremiah. You mean Jerry? Well, you don't really call people by their nickname until you like really know them right and they're like no it's that's just Jerry. So I was just yeah explaining sort of your your personality and stuff.

Yes. That's just Jerry.

Yes, that's that's pretty much anyone who kind of gets to know me. I mean, I always I'm my full name is Jeremiah, but anybody who if any of you actually get to know me I it's almost I don't even have to really it just I just sort of become Jerry.

It's just that's who I am from experience.

Yes, same with me. I mean my. My full name is Andrew, but I don't think I've ever been called Andrew except by my parents.

So, okay, that's funny because when I was talking to you and I was saying no. Drew and Andrew.

But now it's like Andrew and Andrew. Well, no, I mean not really just like, you know conceptually. But in reality, you all know me and it's I'm just true.

Well.

You guys did a joint venture together and started like some sort of small business or venture like Andrew and Andrew. That kind of sounds like a good sounds like a law firm. I could see that working Andrew and Andrew and associates.

Triple-a, okay.

All right. So more. Yes.

The Unification Church, the Divine Principle, and Control of Members

So we were talking as a so jumping back into the episode. We're you got to the point where you had kind of jumped into the boarding school and you're talking about some of the Sociological things that were happening, you know being part of the Bible studies and then having to do kind of like these fundraising.

We were kind of going around and sort of people you said people were in. A guy went into a wheelchair and was sort of Using that as a way to raise money.

And those sorts of things. There would be people that would actually get seriously injured because of just walking so much. You know day after day that people would get knee injuries. Because you're just you're.

You're pushed beyond your physical limit and that was seen as a good thing, you know. But you're sort of making this self-sacrifice.

Mmm, I'm that's. I'm just wondering Wouldn't they make more money long term if they didn't destroy the bodies of the people raising the money? or not.

Yes, and no, I mean, I don't know.

I mean I just I mean I know like. You know moon and and all of them are just thinking from a purely financial standpoint of just how can we make and rake in the most amount of money. But it's like if you're destroying the people like.

Literally physically their bodies who are bringing you the money. Wouldn't it make more sense to like not kill them?

Yeah, I mean they also had a lot of other organizations and businesses that they were able to fund Money through so they had like the Washington Times and then they had I think they have like a ginseng company in Korea and different organizations.

Yeah, Walter Martin. He'd even talked about how You go you go from like, you know doing small things like selling like selling your flowers or trinkets or these little things for fundraising. But there's a lot of different almost extravagant ventures that sung him and went into.

He talked about how he had made this car. It was a car factory. I Was it. I think it was in Japan because I mean Japan's kind of known for a lot of different companies like Toyota.

Things like that. They're called like Panda. I think the company was called Panda. Yeah, he taught.

Yeah.

So he talked about that and what was interesting too because you talk about wanting to do all these different things and controlling the members, but there is also a PR aspect of Some young moon where you know again, they had the reputation were kind of being that weird brainwashing cult things like that.

But you know, they were trying to at least get some PR exposure just to kind of have a level of normalcy. And so so yeah, I mean even at the very beginning of this episode We play the clip of Walter Martin where he is talking with a representative from the Unification Church.

And I'm sure those people were kind of put out as friends to try and least be somewhat of a representative say hey We're we're another aspect of Christianity or we have a deeper truth come and talk to us kind of be the voice of reason.

But I think in many ways people like Someone like that wouldn't necessarily be representative as a whole of a typical member of the moonies. You know the debate I'm referring to right the conversation with John Inkerberg with representatives from the moonies that Walter Martin's talking about.

Yeah, I I think I'm familiar. There's a lot of interviews with um, I think there's there's like one to eleven episodes with Walter Martin talking to some of the representatives.

Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, so it's kind of broken up. But um, so you had gotten into like the boarding school, which I'm curious that we talked a little bit about yesterday. And it reminded me it's very interesting because there are times where there's different cults that will have sort of their own Education institutions, which is understandable because they it's an aspect of Steve Hassan's bite model, which is information control almost in the same way now when you look at what's going on in the public school system and What's being what's being infused all the difference, you know.

Gender ideology and all the different aspects of woke ism and critical race theory now sort of being put into that. So you almost have the cult of secularism go there almost almost embracing Hassan's bite model.

Yes with that. Again, it shows that in many ways just neutrality is a myth. But when it goes down to a specific cult. You would have this education Institute that would just want to have control every aspect of this individual's life so what I'm curious about though because there are Colts where there still is a education.

Where you can take that skill set and actually bring it to the marketplace outside of just working for the group. But there's an example you hear many cases in Leah Remini Mike Rinder show Scientology the aftermath where they were.

Your age when you were in a school ages 14 to 18. Where they're involved in the Sea Org and they were doing stuff strictly that's Scientology based. So you couldn't really take really anything outside of the group.

So a lot of people who would leave or got kicked out they end up being homeless. They had really nowhere to go. Yes, so what was that aspect like for you? Because I know that in many ways how in Mormonism how a woman's prepared in many way for marriage.

We've talked there's a song called I know a Mormon boy. He is my pride and joy one day I'll be his wife will have eternal life. So this is this whole song. Where in many ways they're getting docked in and being prepped for eternal marriage.

Yeah.

And that's kind of What you're being talked about because marriage is this amazing a holy thing like you're getting you got to prep up to be ready for? The third generation. Yeah, but anyways enough of me.

What was it? What was the education experience like for you within the Unification Church? Yeah, so, um, I.

Actually know I I never went to the school but The Unification Church does have their own University in Korea, I believe it's called Sun Moon University. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it's they have their own University there.

I have and I know a lot of Unification Church members do go there and even they they accept applications from people that are. You know non-unification members, but for me in particular from ages 14 to 18 I went to this boarding school and it had different names at different times.

But you know, it was run by a group of individuals that were or couples I should say that were first-generation they weren't accredited teachers, but they were running this school and they would host kids from second generation that were from all over the world and they mainly focused on The like teachings from the divine principle and what it is to be like, you know a noble second generation and Just you know go traveling around the country fundraising going to these different speeches and events.

So that's that's what that was like for me in terms of Education, like I said, they didn't focus so much on academia or building skill sets. For the average second generation that didn't go to this particular school.

That I went to I mean, I think kids mainly would just you know, grow up kind of. Just going to the public school and then by the time they finish high school. There was always this option to go to the the mobile fundraising team and by the time it was called STF special task force.

Where they would fundraise and then they would go to workshops and that was sort of Yeah, they're their way of sort of I mean educating but there was never it was education all based on just divine principle and moon's teachings.

There was no like skill set of. Unless you went to maybe the University Where you could take business classes or language classes or things like that.

So you you said you you said something that's probably striking the listeners ears right now, what what is the divine principle. What what is that? Exactly. What's the divine principle?

Well, yeah, I touched up a little bit on it. So the divine principle is. It's just basically like this new revelation new like, you know, like the Mormon Mormons. It's just.

Moon's.

His interpretation of the Bible. So it's a book. He wrote. Yeah, it was just a book. He wrote it's a standard.

Yeah, exactly. So everything so in other words like everything that we talked about in the first episode and again, this is part two. So if you're just jumping in here definitely check out part one give a lot more context.

We would kind of we kind of went into some of the theology surrounding marriage lineage things like that. But everything summed up that Sun and Moon taught in summary is called the divine principle. Yeah, that's their authoritative text.

Yeah, so in other words, if you're just talking from one member to another they say the divine principle. That's probably just in summary like all of the above. It's their understanding of like, you know.

They have chapters like the the first chapter. I think is like purpose of creation like how God created, you know, the earth. History they touch up on you know, not all stories of Bible. But you know just kind of cherry-picking on you know.

The most the most prominent stories and then basically our our purpose as humans, right?

Yeah, so the reason why I wanted to hit on that is because this this to them is more important than the Bible, right? This is their standard of which they interpret all scripture through. And I just want to read a quote from Moon, this is from master speaks.

This is from March through April 1965. It was a Pretty much a when he was talking and they did a translation of it. So he says this he says until our mission with the Christian Church is over We must quote the Bible and use it to explain the divine principle.

After we receive the inheritance of the Christian Church, we shall be free to teach without the Bible. So that's how important this this book here. Let's hold it up real quick for the camera the exposition of the divine principle and as you can see, that's it right there.

So that's how important it is.

So it's like the Bible because it's not the ultimate thing. The divine principle is the ultimate thing in terms of the ultimate.

Well, what's interesting though to though is that moon said that there was going to be a book to yeah Done. He said that this was the most complete book. However, it wasn't complete. So in their theology, the Bible was just a means to an end.

It's just dispensations, right? Right. So there's dispensations. So if I think about it Christ failed to them, right, right, so we could only spiritually help us not physically. Embrace the kingdom of God there.

So that's a failed dispensation. So this this this book right here to them would be like a consummation of the dispensations through the kingdom of God physically. Which would then supersede the Old Testament the New Testament.

So even if we think in terms of new thought new age thinking it's a revelation where our Let's say our thoughts and philosophies are going in an upward trajectory towards the truth, but we're just not quite there yet.

So so the Bible's like a temporary crutch just for a time. Yeah, this is this is supposed to and that's the real.

Yeah, you're never like truly encouraged to read the Bible. I mean, it's there some people do but There's a lack of emphasis on that or in like, you know, they definitely don't encourage it. So how many people.

Generally speaking would members would know the divine principle really well because I know in a number of different cults there are source materials like scriptures of Their their own scriptures or whatever from their own prophets that a lot of members wouldn't necessarily be Extremely familiar with the teachings the theology all that kind of stuff.

Is that different in the Unification Church where they actually know their own theology? What moon teaches really? Well, I would say.

Like for kids that are born into it, uh-huh don't really know to like too much of the theology. For me and my personal experience. I was just you know, I was raised just going to a lot of speeches. You know gathering around other kids like myself.

Did you understand those speeches early? No, it didn't like. Just added more confusion to it. So, yeah, I would say like for Like the first generation they they were much more educated about the theology of it.

Okay, kind of a little bit of a drop-off afterward after the first generation. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

In fact, um, so I have a question too and this is I'm excited for this is headed because there's a lot of things We're gonna cover that is it's always and again, it's always interesting to you because it whatever cult we cover.

There's always these. Like definitive characteristics and things that just sort of happen within a group. But you know coming going back early in your childhood saying how you always felt that something was wrong or is off.

Yeah, like what was just your process like kind of day in and day out. You know ages 14 to 18 or so going to this boarding school. Was that was there any time where that was still kind of the mentality had like something's off here there's gotta be something more to this or you just kind of went with the flow at that time or.

Just what was that process like at that time?

Like to be honest the entire time I was struggling with it. Like there was never really a time where I I mean There might have been a few instances where I had like an emotional high of just like, you know being with other You know members where you know, we'd have like some cool activity, you know bonding activity.

I'm like, this is awesome. But it was all like based on experience, right but in terms of I was always struggling with. Yeah, there was there was never ever a sense of true satisfaction or Resolution it was always I was questioning everything and I think there were people that genuinely did try to help me understand things, but it was never never clear.

It was very convoluted very confusing. Um, so this constant sense of unease, yeah constantly and By 14 my whole my family moved into this boarding school. So I went from sort of having a normal life you know growing up playing soccer going in public school and then going to this Mooney boarding school where I Lived a completely public life totally shamed to kind of take my own private time.

It was all about public life and you know, they're their motto was living for the sake of others. They'd say LFS. Oh, you know and it was sort of their thing. So anything that was done for yourself thinking for yourself taking time.

It was just really seen as as selfish. So I really struggled with. For me I think just feeling super wounded as a kid not having that attention. From I know that my parents did my best you did their best but not having that attention or Affection or comfort from just even being alone and having just family time.

Everything was was always out in the open.

Family Breakdown, Conditions, and the Unification Church's View of Sin

Yeah, well and again you just see that the aspect of you know, they're supposed to have the perfect family yet in many ways there. And they're so committed to the group they're they're abandoning the basic essential part of like family togetherness, right, you know I mean, you're a busy guy and you've got a lot of things going on.

There's you know, there's there's new things, you know, we're headed to some interesting directions in the future. What's family still number one? Yeah family still number one your first ministry. Yeah, it's your first ministry and you know that like that's that's point central like the biggest role that you have is Being a husband to Casey and also being a father to To Marley and and and Poe as crazy as Poe is jumping every which way mean their last staff retreat.

You're you have me hold Poe and I was like, I was gonna just try to hold him. Yeah, I'm still but that's your first ministry, but I know I would I'm just the fact that you said that you know. It's just interesting a lot of times.

It's the very thing that they're emphasizing is a very thing that in many ways. They're. They're they're putting off or almost abandoning. Yeah, exactly.

And even just feeling completely separated from like my siblings at the time because we were living a completely public life, you know. And. Just feeling I mean I remember like night like day and I would come to my parents I just be like, I just want to go home.

I just want to have a family. I just want to have like a simple normal Childhood. And if I had any issue with one of the the teachers there was in this boarding school There was one teacher and she was sort of the authority.

Authoritative I would say she was like more like the school principal kind of if I had an issue with her. And come to my mom about something, you know crying and just just kind of you know Hurt about maybe something that she said or the way that she handled something.

You know, I just I had so many memories of my parents just saying you should go talk to her. Rather than really just having like that relationship with my parents and being able to you know really feel heard about this child's.

Like, you know calling out to you just totally in pain and.

Handing off the parental responsibilities entirely and even like the parental like guidance and affection and all that to not. You know.

Yourself if you're the parents. Yeah. Yeah, and it's really like, you know My parents that you know, they came from such Wounded backgrounds. I mean my my dad grew up in the Alps in Austria was abandoned by his parents at like age 2 and then he was witness to somewhere in Europe and My mom came up from a super dysfunctional family and was witness to and brought in to you know, Unification Church by her brother.

And so, you know just Parents that that were broken and confused themselves. And yeah.

It's got to be hard to level with your children too in the whole aspect of their theology is they're a separate generation. Yeah, you know what? I mean? Like if if the issue that separates us from God and in truth is our sin, right?

We're all on a level playing field as parents dealing with our children as Orthodox Christians. We can go we know what the problem is. The Bible has the answers for us your sinner. Let's work on these things and let's develop right from there put off the old self put on the new self.

However in this this theology, they can't even relate to one another. They're two totally different generations in Sins, not necessarily the focal point of the issue. Yeah, you know, they don't really have any answer.

So it's like let me go throw you to your counselor or their excuse would be.

You know, like I said, they would they would include a lot of Bowing, there's a lot of like different Asian or Korean aspects to Unification Church, so They would say, you know, you just need to do more conditions.

You're struggling with this. You need to do more conditions. Oh, that was basic conditions was the word they used for, you know, workspace, right righteousness need to go. You know do 200 bowels to you know this picture.

Or you need to take you know, cold showers for a week or you need to fast.

Colossians 2 and the Futility of Self-Made Religion

Yeah.

So drew did you have one last thing you want to add real quickly or um, I was just gonna mention.

I think me and Andrew think the exact same thing of the very end of Colossians chapter 2. Amen. Paul says that if with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world. So if you have, you know, you're no longer alive according to your old sinful nature.

Why as if you were still alive in the world? Do you submit to regulations like for instance do not handle do not taste not touch do not do all of these Things you know for spiritual gain. Why do you act like this, you know referring to things that all perish as they are used right according to human precepts and human teachings these things have indeed in appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and Severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

So I just think it's It's just incredible just the stark contrast between what claims to be the fulfillment of biblical Christianity or the second Messiah where the Messiah himself came, you know his Yoke is easy and his burden is light and it's not like What moon said even close?

I mean the the second Messiah shouldn't contradict what the actual Messiah said at every single point and The truth the true life that is available in Jesus Christ Isn't about doing all of these rituals all of these this endless treadmill of impossible expectations.

The the true gospel is centered upon not me. The good news isn't about me or what I do and it's not even about what some other person can do. It's not about some Man who's exalted himself as the Messiah it's about the real Messiah the God who has existed from all eternity the second person of the Trinity who has come into the world to Be the Savior.

Jesus is the Lord. Jesus is God. He is the Savior and he's the one who lived as Jerry mentioned on the last episode the perfectly righteous life that we could never live and That's the life that we had to live in order to be made righteous with God.

But we still have to deal with all of these sins all of this. The the shame brokenness guilt over our sins over other people's sins that we can't handle. We can't bear that load upon ourselves. And if we try to take that weight upon ourselves, we're gonna be crushed in this life and in the next but the fact is Jesus died on the cross.

He took our afflictions. He took our guilt he took our bruises and all of our sins all of our iniquities and He paid all of it to the full as he poured out his life for all those who trust in him. And he rose again from the dead.

Which.

He gives them eternal life everlasting life through his resurrection to all who turn from their sin and trust in him alone. And the peace you have through Christ is unlike anything That moon could offer.

Mm-hmm. It's nothing like it because he can't offer peace only the God Against whom we've sinned. Yeah, we've severed that. Yeah, that's it's only him. Yes, and that's really good.

Sun Myung Moon's Death and the Unification Church Succession Crisis

So on that note and thank you for that drew that that's an excellent summary of the real hope of the gospel. And so we're getting to that point. But it's very interesting you mentioned resurrection because while you mentioned the historical fact that Jesus rose from the dead.

Which really that's the one thing that stands apart the true gospel from all these counterfeit cults and religions as you have. And someone who rose from the dead and who is alive versus all these leaders who died.

Including Sun Yung Moon, and I think this is a point where I want to take this is a pivotal point in this episode but also in your story because after this boarding school that happened or Sun Yung Moon passed away and That for you you explained to me yesterday that was a bit of the crisis of faith.

Take us into that.

Yeah, so this was I think I was probably around Age 18. I was living in New York City, and I wanted to be a writer and there's an opportunity open Unification Church had their own magazine as well. And so I took an internship living in New York City working for the church magazine and This was basically around the the time that one of his daughter's engine moon sort of started she kind of Took the lead of the American Church for the Unification Church members and just like how there's you know These megachurches for Chris, you know Christians.

It was sort of like the the megachurch for the Unification Church so they would have these like amazing like decked out galas and They'd have these like really awesome I mean by by the looks of it was just like, you know lights and an awesome band and you'd have her speaking and giving speeches.

And so and she yeah, she took like the the lead of the American Church and During this time. I was working at one of the headquarters, which is the they own the New York New Yorker Hotel in Manhattan and right when moon died was in year 2012 a Lot of the scandals and things had come to the surface.

There was a lot of just misuse of money and power that had been going on obviously since the beginning right but just came to light for me and You know infidelity within church leaders and that was basically That flipped the switch for me where I was like, all right, I'm ready to renounce this and get out.

That's a grievous sin for them to write adultery. Isn't that like a massive like like an unforgivable sin to them? Yeah. Yeah. Finding that stuff out.

Yeah, and so so that at that point in time like you're going through that so Shangri-La moon passes away. And so this is also you can maybe coming to give me an obviously affected you personally as far as a crisis of faith but also in many ways.

This is this is either you the breaking point or pivotal point for cults because usually they're centered around a charismatic leader. So usually what will happen is that the group will just sort of dissolve and fall away.

And you kind of have that you see that in the book of Acts when they talk about Should what's going on this group the way and I forget the name of the person who? You says well this guy came up for a while and then he died.

You know, he was charismatic and but then he like died and then that group scattered away. And then this group kind of came together and then they scattered away. But if this is but let's see what happens because if it's of God, we can't do anything to stop it.

It'll scatter away. So a lot of times you'll you see a scattering and it is a dissolving of the group or what you'll see too is almost as battle for succession. You saw that happen with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You had them you had Brigham Young who claimed succession, but then you also had Emma Smith. They split and then you have the reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Missouri. Then you have Brigham Young who went and they ventured over to Utah.

So you see that happened there. So Explain like how again how that interweaved with the separation of. But what happened after saying we passed away in regards to the church. Yeah, and then how did you?

How did then how did that then affect you?

Well after so after moon died. There was a big split in the church. I personally just ran from all of it. You're just I was just done. Okay, I'm with all of it. I wasn't like I'm gonna choose this side or that side.

I'm like, I'm done with anything that you know is associated with it. Well done and with that I'm out. Yeah. Yeah, I was just done with the confusion and.

So.

I'm gonna basically just split between. I believe it was moon's wife Hawk Jahan where she kind of took a leadership role and then part of part of the church split into Moon's youngest son Hyunjin moon and now he has a church in I believe it's Pennsylvania called Sanctuary Church.

And is this this is the this is the church that was featured in vice. Yeah. Okay, so what we're gonna do real quickly because people actually ask us about this. Okay, because they're part and parcel to each other.

And again, I think this is also we'll play this clip and it's just interesting to you because this is almost a Almost sort of like people trying to kind of find their identity like trying to find their identity.

After the Messiah dies, right. Because none of this exists like what they feature on vice did not exist when I was growing up. What the Unification Church? This was like the splinter. Okay off of you know when moon died and people are basically struggling for authoritative power and.

Relatively recently, right?

So what we'll do is we'll play this clip and we'll play this brief clip and we'll kind of take you into this world. And if you again if you want to watch the entire show. You can watch the whole thing on vice.

There's a it's a 30-minute episode. We might even post it here on social media. So here's the clip. Okay. Yeah, that was interesting. That was definitely interesting to say the least. So again just to emphasize this is important because in many ways that what you'll see in The whole aspect of Colts usually once a cult dies, there's a struggle for succession.