Cultish - Leaving the Moonies, Pt. 2

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Cultish - Congressmen William D. Upshaw Pt. 3

00:00

Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts I am one of the co -hosts here

00:07

Welcome to 2021 everyone. I hope you all are surviving this crazy strange brave new world

00:15

And now we have 1984 reasons to be super excited for this episode just throwing all the dystopian

00:20

Crazy references that are now coming true apparently, but we're in tell that all happens

00:26

We're just gonna still roll the punches and have a good time. So enter the super sleuth of the show. How are you, man? I'm doing well besides having to burn all my books.

00:34

So we're doing great Dystopian future. Hey, at least we'll be a warm for a little bit because it is kind of cold right now here in Arizona So yeah, at least we all the book all the book burning can kind of keep us warm Let's a digital and we just canceled by all the let all the reptilian techno overlords

00:49

So you never really owned them in the first place. Let's yeah, that's another story Yeah So basically if you notice parts in part two, we're probably now we've had a bunch of cold brew and alpha brains

00:57

So now we're kind of like our neurons are firing in all cylinders but I am super excited for this episode because we are talking about the unification church the

01:05

Mooney's and we are here with Hana Castaneda Yes, I did it.

01:13

I did it Yeah, I'm getting there and we are here with absolute truth or drew the intern or all the different Whatever you want.

01:24

I mean, you know, so you are you are the you are sort of like a backup Rhodes Scholar of sorts

01:30

And you've got you had a couple different books here You had a couple of different books on Greek and stuff you brought and you've kind of did you have a book here on you?

01:37

Always seem you always seem to have some sort of book that at least one book that has something to do with Greek Yeah, so well

01:43

I earlier I moved it just so it wouldn't be a cluttering up the table But I had a

01:48

Greek grammar in intro Greek grammar I'm teaching just one of the students just very beginning

01:54

Greek at a apology and one of the teenagers and That has been a huge blessing really really fun and then the other thing was

02:02

Greek New Testament, which I wanted to open but it's like I have it on my computer So I might as well just use it on my computer because it's easier good good

02:11

So you are the you are you are the master of languages here at least at least in comparison to me Master is quite a strong word

02:20

Me I would say yes Anyways, so anyways, I'd kind of jumping into our last episode.

02:27

We're glad thank you again for coming out to California and you and you also you got to kind of hang out with some of the apology ladies last night

02:34

And you did a cookie. We're there doing the cookie exchange and you had a good time there. Yeah, it was pretty fun

02:40

Okay, and then did they explain to you the just Jerry part of it because we people know about this if you listen to episode

02:46

Sheologians someone to explain that to you the just Jerry aspect of that. We want to have some fun before we get started Tell me about that. What are they?

02:51

How do they explain that? Well, I kept referring to you as Jeremiah, right? They're like Jeremiah.

02:57

You mean Jerry Well, you don't really call people by their nickname until you like really know them right and they're like no it's that's just Jerry So I was just yeah explaining sort of your your personality and stuff.

03:09

Yes. That's just Jerry Yes, that's that's pretty much anyone who kind of gets to know me

03:14

I mean, I always I'm my full name is Jeremiah, but anybody who if any of you actually get to know me

03:20

I it's almost I don't even have to really it just I just sort of become Jerry. It's just that's who

03:25

I am from experience Yes, same with me I mean my my full name is Andrew, but I don't think

03:31

I've ever been called Andrew except by my parents So, okay, that's funny because when

03:37

I was talking to you and I was saying no Drew and Andrew But now it's like Andrew and Andrew. Well, no, I mean not really just like, you know conceptually

03:44

But in reality you all know me and it's I'm just true well if you guys did a joint venture together and started like some sort of small business or venture like Andrew and Andrew that kind of sounds like a good sounds like a law firm.

03:55

I could see that working Andrew and Andrew and associates Triple -a, okay All right.

04:02

So more. Yes So we were talking as a so jumping back into the episode

04:08

We're you got to the point where you had kind of jumped into the boarding school and you're talking about some of the

04:15

Sociological things that were happening, you know being part of the Bible studies and then having to do kind of like these fundraising we were kind of going around and and sort of people you said people were in a guy went into a wheelchair and was sort of Using that as a way to raise money

04:32

And those sorts of things there would be people that would actually get seriously injured because of just walking so much

04:38

You know a day after day that people would get knee injuries Because you're just you're you're pushed beyond your physical limit and that was seen as a good thing

04:46

You know, but you're sort of making this self -sacrifice Mmm, I'm that's I'm just wondering

04:53

Wouldn't they make more money long term if they didn't destroy the bodies of the people raising the money?

05:00

Or not Yes, and no, I mean, I don't know I mean I just I mean

05:06

I know like You know moon and and all of them are just thinking from a purely financial standpoint of just how can we make and rake in?

05:13

The most amount of money but it's like if you're destroying the people like literally physically their bodies who are bringing you the money

05:20

Wouldn't it make more sense to like not kill them? Yeah, I mean they also had a lot of other organizations and businesses that they were able to fund a lot of money through money through So they had like the

05:32

Washington Times and then they had I think they have like a ginseng company in Korea and different organizations

05:38

Yeah, and Walter Martin. He'd even talked about how You go you go from like, you know doing small things like selling like selling your flowers or trinkets or these little things for fundraising

05:49

But there's a lot of different almost extravagant ventures that sung him and went into he talked about how he had made this car

05:56

It was a car factory. I Was it I think it was in Japan because I mean Japan's kind of known for a lot of different companies like Toyota Things like that.

06:04

They're called like Panda. I think the company was called. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah So we talked about that and what was interesting too because you talk about wanting to do all these different things and controlling the members, but there is also a

06:16

PR aspect of Some young moon where you know again, they had the reputation were kind of being that weird brainwashing cult things like that But you know, they were trying to at least get some

06:27

PR exposure just to kind of have a level of normalcy And so so yeah,

06:33

I mean even at the very beginning of this episode We play the clip of Walter Martin where he is talking with a representative from the unification

06:40

Church And I'm sure those people were kind of put out as front to try and least be somewhat of a representative say hey

06:46

We're we're another aspect of Christianity or we have a deeper truth come and talk to us kind of be the voice of reason but I think in many ways people like Someone like that wouldn't necessarily be representative as a whole of a typical member of the moonies

07:00

You know the debate I'm referring to right the conversation with John Ingeborg with representatives from the moonies that Walter Martin's talking about Yeah, I I think

07:08

I'm familiar. There's a lot of interviews with I think there's this like 1 to 11 episodes with Walter Talking to some of the representatives.

07:17

Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, so it's kind of broken up But um, so you had gotten into like the boarding school, which

07:25

I'm curious that we talked a little bit about yesterday And it reminded me it's very interesting because there are times where there's different cults that will have sort of their own

07:33

Education institutions, which is understandable because they it's an aspect of Steve Hassan's bite model, which is information control

07:40

Almost in the same way now when you look at what's going on in the public school system and what's being what's being infused all

07:48

The difference, you know gender ideology and all the different aspects of woke ism and critical race theory now

07:55

Sort of being put into that so you almost have the cult of secularism go there almost almost embracing

08:00

Hassan's bite model Yes with that Again, it shows that in many ways just neutrality is a myth

08:07

But when it goes down to a specific cult You would have this education

08:13

Institute that would just want to have control every aspect of this individual's life so what I'm curious about though, because there are cults where there still is a education

08:24

Where you can take that skill set and actually bring it to the marketplace outside of just working for the group

08:31

But there's an example you hear many cases in Leah Remini Mike Rinder show Scientology the aftermath where they were your age when you were in a school ages 14 to 18 where they're involved in the

08:43

C org and They were doing stuff strictly that's Scientology based So you couldn't really take really anything outside of the group

08:51

So a lot of people who would leave or got kicked out they end up being homeless. They had really nowhere to go

08:57

Yes, so what was that aspect like for you? Because I know that in many ways how in Mormonism how a woman's prepared in many way for marriage.

09:07

We've talked there's a song called. I know a Mormon boy He is my pride and joy one day. I'll be his wife will have eternal life.

09:13

So this is this whole song Where in many ways they're getting docked in and getting prepped for eternal marriage

09:19

Yeah and that's kind of What you're being talked about because marriage is this amazing a holy thing like you're getting you got to prep up to be

09:26

Ready for the third generation. Yeah, but anyways enough of me. What was what was the education experience like for you?

09:34

Within the Unification Church. Yeah, so I Actually, no, I I never went to this school, but the

09:41

Unification Church does have their own University in Korea, I believe it's called

09:47

Sun Moon University Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it's they have their own University there I have and I know a lot of Unification Church members do go there and even they they accept applications from people that are

09:59

You know non -unification members, but for me in particular from ages 14 to 18

10:07

I went to this boarding school and it had different names at different times

10:13

But you know, it was run by a group of individuals that were or couples. I should say that were first -generation they weren't accredited teachers, but they were running this school and they would host kids from second generation that were from all over the world and They mainly focused on The like teachings from the divine principle and what it is to be like, you know a noble second generation and Just you know go traveling around the country fundraising going to these different speeches and events

10:47

So that's that's what that was like for me in terms of Education, like I said, they didn't focus so much on academia or building skill sets

10:56

For the average second generation that didn't go to this particular school that I went to I mean,

11:03

I think kids mainly would just you know, grow up kind of Just going to the public school and then by the time they finish high school

11:13

There was always this option to go to the the mobile fundraising team and by the time it was called

11:19

STF special task force where they would fundraise and then they would go to workshops and that was sort of Yeah, they're they're a way of sort of I mean educating but there was never it was education all based on just divine principle and moon's teachings there was no like skill set of Unless you went to maybe the

11:41

University Where you could take business classes or language classes or things like that So you said you you said something that's probably striking the listeners you right now.

11:51

What what is the divine principle? What what is that? Exactly? What's the divine principle? Well, yeah,

11:57

I touched up a little bit on it. So the divine principle is It's just basically like this new revelation new like, you know, like the

12:06

Mormon Mormons. It's just moon's his interpretation of the

12:12

Bible There's a book he wrote. Yeah, it's just a book. He wrote it's a standard. Yeah, exactly

12:18

So everything so in other words like everything that we talked about in the first episode and again, this is part two So if you're just jumping in here definitely check out part one give a lot more context

12:26

We would kind of we kind of went into some of the theology surrounding marriage lineage things like that But everything's summed up that Sun and Moon taught in summary is called the divine principle.

12:37

Yeah, that's their authoritative text Yeah, so in other words if you're just talking from one member to another they say the divine principle

12:44

That's probably just in summary like all of the above. It's their understanding of like, you know They have chapters like the the first chapter

12:52

I think is like purpose of creation like how God created, you know the earth History they touch up on you know, not all stories the

13:01

Bible But you know just kind of cherry -picking on you know The most the most prominent stories and then basically our our purpose as humans, right?

13:09

Yeah So the reason why I wanted to hit on that is because this this to them is more important than the Bible, right?

13:15

This is their standard of which they interpret all scripture through and I just want to read a quote from Moon, this is from master speaks.

13:23

This is from March through April 1965 it was a Pretty much when he was talking and they did a translation of it

13:29

So he says this he says until our mission with the Christian Church is over We must quote the Bible and use it to explain the divine principle after we receive the inheritance of the

13:38

Christian Church We shall be free to teach without the Bible. So that's how important this this book here

13:44

Let's hold it up real quick for the camera the exposition of the divine principle. And as you can see, that's it right there

13:52

So that's how important it is So it's like the Bible because it's not the ultimate thing.

13:57

The divine principle is the ultimate thing in terms of the ultimate Well, what's interesting though to though is that moon said that there was going to be a book too.

14:05

Yeah, but it was never done He said that this was the most complete book. However, it wasn't complete Complete so In their theology the

14:13

Bible was just a means to an end. It's just dispensation. All right, right, so there's dispensation So if I think about it

14:19

Christ failed to them, right, right, so we could only spiritually help us not physically

14:24

Embrace the kingdom of God there. So that's a failed dispensation So this this this book right here to them would be like a consummation of the dispensations through the kingdom of God physically

14:33

Which would then supersede the Old Testament the New Testament? So even if we think in the terms of new thought

14:40

New Age thinking it's a revelation where our Let's say our thoughts and philosophies are going in an upward trajectory towards the truth, but we're just not quite there yet So so the

14:52

Bible is like a temporary crutch just for a time. Yeah, this is this is supposed to and that's the real That's the real deal.

14:57

Yeah, you're never like truly encouraged to read the Bible. I mean, it's there some people do but There's a lack of emphasis on that or like, you know, they definitely don't encourage it.

15:08

So how many people Generally speaking would members would know the divine principle really well because I know in a number of different cults there are source materials like scriptures of Their their own scriptures or whatever from their own prophets that a lot of members wouldn't necessarily be

15:26

Extremely familiar with the teachings the theology all that kind of stuff Is that different in the

15:31

Unification Church where they actually know their own theology? What moon teaches really? Well, I would say

15:39

Like for kids that are born into it, uh -huh don't really know to like too much of the theology

15:46

For me and my personal experience. I was just you know, I was raised just going to a lot of speeches You know gathering around other kids like myself.

15:54

Did you understand those speeches or really? No, it didn't like Just added more confusion to it

16:03

So, yeah, I would say like for Like the first generation they they were much more educated about the theology of it

16:11

Okay, kind of a little bit of a drop -off afterward after the first generation.

16:17

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, in fact, um, so I have a question too and this is

16:23

I'm excited for this is headed because there's a lot of things We're gonna cover that is it's always and again, it's always interesting to you because it whatever cult we cover.

16:31

There's always these like Definitive characteristics and things that just sort of happen within a group

16:38

But you know coming going back early in your childhood saying how you always felt that something was wrong or is off Yeah Like what was just your process like kind of day in and day out, you know ages 14 to 18 or so going to this boarding

16:49

School was that was there any time where that was still kind of the mentality had like something's off here there's gotta be something more to this or you just kind of went with the flow at that time or Just what was that process like at that time?

17:02

Like to be honest the entire time I was struggling with it like there was never really a time where I I Mean there might have been a few instances where I had like an emotional high of just like, you know being with other

17:16

You know members where you know, we'd have like some cool activity, you know bonding activity

17:21

This is awesome, but it was all like based on experience, right but in terms of I was always struggling with Yeah, there was there was never ever a sense of true satisfaction or Resolution it was always

17:40

I was questioning everything and I think there were people that genuinely did try to help me understand things, but it was never never clear

17:49

It was very convoluted very confusing So you have this constant sense of unease?

17:55

Yeah constantly and By 14 my whole my family moved into this boarding school

18:02

So I went from sort of having a normal life you know growing up playing soccer going in public school and then going to this

18:10

Mooney boarding school where I Lived a completely public life totally shamed to kind of take my own private time

18:17

It was all about public life and you know, they're their motto was living for the sake of others

18:23

They'd say LFS. Oh, you know and it was sort of their thing So anything that was done for yourself thinking for yourself taking time.

18:30

It was just really seen as as selfish. So I really struggled with For me

18:39

I think just feeling super wounded as a kid not having that attention From I know that my parents did my best you did their best but not having that attention or Affection or comfort from just even being alone and having just family time.

18:57

Everything was was always out in the open Yeah, well again again you just see that the aspect of you know, they're supposed to have the perfect family yet in many ways there

19:08

They're so committed to the group They're they're abandoning the basic essential part of like family togetherness, right?

19:15

You know, I mean you're a busy guy and you've got a lot of things going on There's you know, there's there's new things, you know, we're headed to some interesting directions in the future

19:26

What's family still number one? Yeah family still number one your first ministry Yeah it's your first ministry and you know that like that's that's point central like the biggest role that you have is

19:34

Being a husband to Casey and also being a father to To Marley and and poet as crazy as I was jumping every which way

19:43

I mean and their last staff retreat year you had me hold Poe and I was like I was gonna try to hold him.

19:49

Yeah, I'm still but that's your first ministry But I know I would I'm just the fact that you said that you know, it's just interesting a lot of times

19:57

It's the very thing that they're emphasizing is a very thing that in many ways. They're putting off They're putting off or almost abandoning.

20:05

Yeah, exactly and even just feeling completely separated from like my siblings at the time because we were living a completely public life, you know and Just feeling

20:18

I mean I remember like night like day and night I would come to my parents and I just be like I just want to go home.

20:24

I just want to have a family I just want to have like a simple normal childhood and if I had any issue with one of the teachers

20:32

There was in this boarding school. There was one teacher and she was sort of the authority Authoritative I would say she was like more like the school principal kind of if I had an issue with her

20:42

And come to my mom about something, you know crying and just just kind of you know Hurt about maybe something that she said or the way that she handled something

20:52

You know, I just I had so many memories of my parents just saying you should go talk to her rather than really just having

20:57

That relationship with my parents and being able to you know, really feel heard about this child's like, you know calling out to you just totally in pain and Handing off the parental responsibilities entirely and even like the parental like guidance and affection and all that to not you know

21:17

Yourself if you're the parents, yeah. Yeah, and it's really like, you know My parents that you know, they came from such

21:25

Wounded backgrounds and then my my dad grew up in the Alps in Austria was abandoned by his parents at like age two and then he was witness to somewhere in Europe and My mom came up from a super dysfunctional family and was witness to and brought in to you know,

21:40

Unification Church by her brother And so, you know just Parents that that were broken and confused themselves and yeah

21:51

It's got to be hard to level with your children too in the whole aspect of their theology is they're a separate generation

21:57

Yeah, you know what? I mean? Like if if the issue that separates us from God and in truth is our sin, right?

22:04

We're on a level playing field as parents dealing with our children as Orthodox Christians We can go we know what the problem is.

22:11

The Bible has the answers for us your sinner Let's work on these things and let's develop right from there put off the old self put on the new self

22:19

However in this this theology, they can't even relate to one another. They're two totally different generations in Sins, not necessarily the focal point of the issue.

22:28

Yeah, you know, they don't really have any answer So it's like let me go throw you to your counselor or their excuse would be you know, like I said, they would they would include a lot of Bowing, there's a lot of like different Asian or Korean aspects to Unification Church.

22:43

So They would say, you know, you just need to do more conditions you're struggling with this

22:49

You need to do more conditions out those conditions was the word they used for, you know, workspace, right? Righteousness You need to go, you know do 200 bows to you know this picture

22:59

Or you need to take you know, cold showers for a week or you need to fast Yeah So drew did you have one less thing you want to add real quickly or um,

23:10

I was just gonna mention I think me and Andrew think the exact same thing of the very end of Colossians chapter 2 men

23:18

Paul says that if with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world So if you have, you know, you're no longer alive according to your old sinful nature

23:30

Why as if you were still alive in the world? Do you submit to regulations like for instance do not handle do not taste not touch do not do all of these

23:40

Things you know for spiritual gain. Why do you act like this? You know referring to things that all perish as they are used right according to human precepts and human teachings these things have indeed in appearance of wisdom in Promoting self -made religion and asceticism and severity to the body

24:03

But they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh. So I just think it's

24:09

It's just incredible just the stark contrast between what claims to be the fulfillment of biblical

24:15

Christianity or the second Messiah where the Messiah himself came, you know his

24:22

Yoke is easy and his burden is light and it's not like What moon said even close?

24:29

I mean the the second Messiah shouldn't contradict what the actual Messiah said at every single point and The truth the true life that is available in Jesus Christ Isn't about doing all of these rituals all of these this endless treadmill of impossible expectations

24:49

The the true gospel is centered upon not me The good news isn't about me or what

24:56

I do and it's not even about what some other person can do It's not about some Man who's exalted himself as the

25:03

Messiah it's about the real Messiah the God who has existed from all eternity the second person of the

25:08

Trinity who has come into the world to Be the Savior Jesus is the

25:15

Lord. Jesus is God He is the Savior and he's the one who lived as Jerry mentioned on the last episode the perfectly righteous life that we could never live and That's the life that we had to live in order to be made righteous with God But we still have to deal with all of these sins all of this

25:33

The the shame brokenness guilt over our sins over other people's sins that we can't handle

25:38

We can't bear that load upon ourselves And if we try to take that weight upon ourselves, we're gonna be crushed in this life and in the next but the fact is

25:47

Jesus died on the cross. He took our afflictions. He took our guilt he took our bruises and all of our sins all of our iniquities and He paid all of it to the full as he poured out his life for all those who trust in him

26:02

He rose again from the dead which he gives then eternal life everlasting life through his resurrection to all who turn from their sin and trust in him alone and the peace you have through Christ is unlike anything

26:19

That moon could offer. Mm -hmm. It's nothing like it because he can't offer peace only the

26:25

God Against whom we've sinned. Yeah, we've severed that. Yeah, that's only him.

26:30

Yes, and that's really good So on that note and thank you for that drew that that's an excellent summary of the real hope of the gospel

26:37

And so we're getting to that point But it's very interesting you mentioned resurrection because while you mentioned the historical fact that Jesus rose from the dead

26:46

Which really that's the one thing that stands apart the true gospel from all these counterfeit cults and religions as you have

26:54

And someone who rose from the dead and who is alive versus all these leaders who died

27:01

Including Sun Yung Moon, and I think this is a point where I want to take this is a pivotal point in this episode but also in your story because after this boarding school that happened or Sun Yung Moon passed away and That for you you explained to me yesterday that what that was a bit of the crisis of faith take us into that Yeah, so this was

27:22

I think I was probably around age 18 I was living in New York City, and I wanted to be a writer and there's an opportunity open

27:32

Unification Church had their own magazine as well. And so I took an internship living in New York City working for the church magazine and This was basically around the the time that one of his daughter's engine moon

27:48

Sort of started she kind of Took the lead of the American Church for the Unification Church members and just like how there's you know

27:55

These megachurches for Chris, you know Christians. It was sort of like the the megachurch for the

28:01

Unification Church so they would have these like amazing like decked out gala's and They'd have these like really awesome

28:08

I mean by by the looks of it was just like, you know lights and an awesome band and you'd have her speaking and giving speeches and so and she yeah, she took like the the lead of the

28:21

American Church and During this time. I was working at one of the headquarters, which is the they own the

28:30

New York New Yorker Hotel in Manhattan and right when moon died was in year 2012 a

28:40

Lot of the scandals and things had come to the surface There was a lot of just misuse of money and power that had been going on obviously since the beginning right, but just came to light for me and You know infidelity within church leaders and that was basically

29:00

That flipped the switch for me where I was like, all right, I'm ready to renounce this and get out

29:05

That's a great to sin for them to write adultery. Isn't that like a massive like like an unforgivable sin to them?

29:10

Yeah. Yeah Finding that stuff out Yeah, and so so at that at that point in time like you're going through that so Shangri -la moon passes away and so this is also you can maybe coming to give

29:25

Mean obviously affected you personally as far as a crisis of faith but also in many ways this is this is either you the breaking point or pivotal point for cults because usually they're centered around a charismatic leader so usually what will happen is that the group will just sort of dissolve and fall away and You kind of have that you see that in the book of Acts when they talk about Should what's going on this group the way and I forget the name of the person who?

29:49

You says well this guy came up for a while and then he died You know, he was charismatic and but then he like died and then that group scattered away

29:57

And then this group kind of came together and then they scattered away But if this is but let's see what happens because if it's of God, we can't do anything to stop it

30:07

It'll scatter away so a lot of times you'll do you see a scattering and it is a Dissolving of the group or what you'll see too is almost as battle for succession

30:16

You saw that happen with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints You had them you had Brigham Young who claimed succession, but then you also had

30:23

Emma Smith They split and then you have the reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints in Missouri Then you have

30:28

Brigham Young who went and they ventured over to Utah. So you see that happened there.

30:35

So Explain like how again how that interweaved with the separation of But what happened after Sun and Moon passed away in regards to the church?

30:44

Yeah, and then how did you? How did then how did that then affect you? Well after so after moon died

30:53

There was a big split in the church I personally just ran from all of it.

30:59

You're just I was just done. Okay. I'm with all of it I wasn't like I'm gonna choose this side or that side. I'm like,

31:04

I'm done with anything that you know is associated with it Well done and with that I'm out yeah, yeah,

31:12

I was just done with the confusion and so But I basically just split between I believe it was moon's wife

31:20

Hock Jahan where she kind of took a leadership role and then part of part of the church split into Moon's youngest son

31:32

Hyunjin moon and now he has a church in I believe it's Pennsylvania called

31:37

Sanctuary Church And is this this is the this is the church that was featured in vice. Yeah Okay, so what we're gonna do real quickly because people actually ask us about this

31:45

Okay, because they're part and parcel to each other. And again, I think this is also we'll play this clip and it's just interesting to you because this is almost a

31:56

Almost sort of like people trying to kind of find their identity like trying to find their identity after the

32:03

Messiah died Like what they feature on vice did not exist when

32:09

I was growing up what the unification church this was like the splinter okay off of you know when moon died and people are basically struggling for authoritative power and Relatively recently, right?

32:22

So what we'll do is we'll play this clip and we'll play this brief clip and we'll kind of take you into this world And if you again if you want to watch the entire show

32:28

You can watch the whole thing on vice. There's a it's a 30 -minute episode. We might even post it here on social media

32:34

So here's the clip Okay. Yeah, that was interesting.

32:41

That was definitely interesting to say the least So again, just to emphasize this is important because in many ways that what you'll see in the whole aspect of cold

32:51

Usually once a cult dies, there's a struggle for succession There's there's ways in which a different person will want to take it over and go in a different direction

32:59

You saw that in Scientology when L. Ron Hubbard died and David Miscavige took over and in many ways

33:06

He was very militant as far as that is concerned if and again that's talked about in Scientology the aftermath in this case

33:13

You have what again? Tell me is his name again of the sanctuary church. Yes Young Jim moon young young Jim moon and so he

33:39

Okay, the same way so I'm I'll mention get the hang of his name I'm getting close to getting your name down too.

33:44

So which is good, too But you know, it's just interesting too because now he is has the it's really known as the church of the

33:51

AR 15 or Like the kid number one keyword under it guns for God vice and That's sort of his thing

34:01

And so he talks about the past is about the rod of iron and he's trying to say that that's an

34:06

AR 15 Right, and so here's what here's what I find fascinating how Colts will take an initial aspect of Like an original core piece of doctrine and it kind of They sort of take that and it kind of gets redefined

34:21

So what's interesting is that while sung and moon initially had a lot of different financial

34:27

Troubles where he got in trouble with the government And the IRS came after him. He kind of used that to play this providential though.

34:35

Yeah Yeah, so he used that to play the victim and he got all these churches together including

34:40

Jerry Falwell And he was saying we got to unite together and you actually see this in the debate

34:45

Where Walter Martin was talking to these two people from the Unification Church where our number one enemy is communism, right?

34:52

And so we need to unify together Under you know, it's the evil government the evil oppressive government that's going after the churches

35:00

So we need to unify together what I found very interesting that in the same way how back in the 70s on young moon did that with the kind of the conservative movement and churches

35:12

Was kind of doing that almost sort of embraced to kind of going reaching out to the to the

35:17

MAGA crowd They make America great again crowd in all the all our gun rights and all those sorts of things

35:22

And yeah, I'm all about I love the Second Amendment all about rights and and obviously I think freedom and the

35:28

Constitution things like that It's important, but I think there's also this dangerous aspect where almost that Americanism and that sort of you know

35:37

American identity Surpasses first and foremost like who you are as a Christian and so in many but anyways

35:44

Well, I just noticed that that's what he was sort of doing. You know this guy

35:54

Where he's doing that so anyways enough of me what just give me your thoughts on him just from what you mean

36:01

You obviously grew up in it So when you see a vice documentary like that, like what are your thoughts on that whole movement?

36:07

I mean, he's got a crown with AR bullets And and obviously he gets that from his dad because you look at that the way they grew up with a gun

36:15

Yeah, all that. Yeah Yeah And even though even the marriage rituals if you look at the initial Mooney ones with the

36:21

Mooney weddings are still young moon I mean, he's bit dressed very extravagant. So I kind of see where he gets that from but yeah,

36:27

I don't know Well, what's your thoughts and then we see the vice documentary? What's your thoughts on that? I mean, it was just like wow, this is really bizarre, but I wasn't surprised.

36:36

I wasn't surprised but you know, I was You can just see how far people take this.

36:42

Yeah, but not not too many thoughts. I'm like I said, I'm not surprised by it Yeah, not not many thoughts on it personally

36:51

I haven't had personally, you know, I haven't been to their church But just from the looks of it, it's it's wacky.

36:57

Yeah Yeah, they take I I think the whole thing about guns they take something totally out of context from The book of Revelation last book of the

37:06

Bible when it talks about rod of iron Yes, so that's what the I guess the the gun represents.

37:12

I forget which verse they're talking about But is it like their sacraments kind of?

37:18

There's a huge there's a huge emphasis on if you watch the documentary Yeah, there's just a big aspect of it

37:25

But again, it just goes to show that there's just it's very different from what you have

37:31

But it's still that's his son and he is sort of claiming, you know, in many ways succession No twist on it with his own twist in it.

37:39

So that's yeah, they put their own twist on everything even with them in the Bible when

37:45

You know, the the bride is referred to as that the church right the body of Christ in Unification theology at the bride is actually like, you know moon's wife

38:00

Okay, so just jumping back to you then so obviously There's this crazy spinoff of it, which is shows because they like in the splinters in different directions

38:09

And you'll see this you'll have people when a cult falls apart or splinters you have different, you know sections

38:15

Yeah, different sex of the cult they'll spin off But then you have people who just leave and they sort of become melancholy and they just become somewhat just Jaded and disconnected.

38:25

Yeah, and but you know as they say in open mind my favorite quotes I always quote all the time and open by GK Chesterton says an open mind is no different than an open mouth

38:36

Eventually has to bite down on something. Yeah, so yes you you have someone of an open mind going out of there

38:42

But you've got to bite down on something to kind of make sense of everything that you had So would explain where you went from there in a spiritual direction?

38:51

but also You talked about that yesterday How is almost how the moon how your time in the moonies and the

38:58

Unification Church pushed in that direction specifically with getting into new age? Yeah, yeah so Transitioning out of the

39:08

Unification Church and just totally renouncing it I needed something to like you said bite down on and You you rough you talked about this that sometimes when people come out of cults

39:20

They either become atheists or they or they go into the new age. The new age was kind of this platform where I was able to In my mind it was

39:31

I was really just seeking healing because I knew there was something like totally off I was looking for truth and There's a lot of similarities between you know moons teaching about you know energy and spirits and things like that The new age kind of it offered me this yeah idea of being you know spiritual and going in the direction to truth

39:52

But again, it was just another Another deception. Did you want me to go into like kind of you know, what

39:58

I? Just like a brief summary you've got it you got a video on YouTube Yeah, which will share in social media that you where you kind of go a lot more in depth than that Yeah, it's almost the exact opposite.

40:11

That's more focusing on the moonies that video. You're kind of talking about your time in the new age But you definitely got into some very interesting aspects of something that we do want to go more in depth in this year into in 2021

40:23

Or next year. We're recording it now in 2020. You know, we're doing here but Yeah, we do want to explore the idea of psychedelic specifically.

40:31

Yeah, that is something that you got into as well But also there's some other things you got into I think shamanism a couple other things

40:39

But yeah, just give them a summary of some of the things you got into some of the things you experienced while trying to Fill this void and pursue this healing after leaving this cult that you grew up in yeah, um,

40:51

I mean my search really really came from this like internal frustration of needing to go deep into figuring out what the real truth was and so Actually one of them one of the first friends

41:06

I really made outside of The Unification Church he kind of introduced me into just this interest in indigenous indigenous cultures and I got really fascinated with that and eventually led me into indigenous shamanism and thinking that they had

41:28

Like this, you know like secret knowledge. Yeah, right and so that really led me down kind of the rabbit hole of Yeah, psychedelics and indigenous rituals and there were some similarities because it was all about you know

41:41

Our our ancestors if I have to go back to the the origin, you know Because that's where I was thinking

41:48

I was gonna find find truth, right? Yeah, because in many ways a lot of times is the you're tapping you're trying to tap into the wisdom of the ancients

41:56

Yeah, I think that's lost in many ways that you're sort of tap into tapping into yeah What if my ancestors were really into and that can take you anywhere from you know

42:05

Like I said any aspect of mysticism to Nordic mythology Yeah, because I mean like I said,

42:11

I mean the the all sorts of paganism the occult It's always it's the same thing.

42:16

The Bible talks about it Just depending on the culture and where you come from. It's gonna be very different whether it's in India or in West Virginia or New Orleans or you know, if it's comes from you know

42:27

Anywhere from in Iceland or that or anywhere anywhere with those where the with the Nordic mythology comes from so Definitely, um, so just real quickly and this is a very interesting aspect too because this is

42:42

It's indicative of the fact that again our last series. We're kind of you know, explaining to people about the you know

42:48

There's an unseen realm and in which that trip scripture talks about and in many ways when we talk about Principalities and powers and and things that happen in the unseen realm.

42:58

There does seem to be a tendency either to over sensational light to sensationalize things or when we talk about things that happen in the unseen realm, we only give credit to To Satan and the way that he operates and to see his people in the unseen realm but you also need to realize too that when you talk about in in the end of Ephesians chapter 1 how

43:21

Christ is Stood at the right hand of the father. I'm just paraphrasing it now. He is put above every ruler authority principality and power

43:28

And it's talking specifically about the unseen realm. So it goes it's a it's a two -way street

43:34

You can't give complete credence to one without acknowledging the other and I would just put an emphasis on that But you just real quickly

43:43

You know drew you did a really good job of summarizing the gospel earlier and you're talking about, you know

43:49

Ultimately G is rising from the dead and so all and which I loved income in contrast to this

43:56

Messiah who died which made you lose faith, but in the process of You pursuing the

44:02

New Age? And just kind of going down that rabbit hole you were on a trip

44:09

I should say yeah and Explained just to tell everyone what happened. Yeah, so, um

44:16

My my lifestyle like after I left the moonies Moving around so much as a kid kind of I Became sort of this like this nomad, you know,

44:29

I there was so much instability in my childhood that and I think part of that was the fear of Being I guess like held down to something.

44:40

I was just You know still searching for truth, but not wanting to be Just imprisoned by anything so I was just kind of like, you know moving around I was living off farms and couch surfing a lot living there back in my car and One of the you know

44:57

The way that the Holy Spirit started to really draw me was it was a series of events and the first time

45:03

I was actually had a really dark dark dark trip off of psilocybin mushrooms and And God God spoke to me and he said if you keep doing this, you know, you're not gonna come you're not gonna come back and It it really put the instilled like the fear of the

45:21

Lord in me and a week after that. I has I was Just couch surfing and I heard gospel music.

45:28

I was led to to this church and just felt the Holy Spirit and and a week after that I got into a major car accident and I was 95 % sure that I was gonna die and it was the first time

45:41

I really really questioned life and death and And hell and all of that and was actually led to Stephen bankers video

45:52

And I wasn't sure if he actually mentioned like gospel in that in his interview, but um, that's

46:00

Am I answering your question? Yeah Yeah, yeah, so I was just listening

46:05

I I heard his his video but it was You know in my testimony that I put up on YouTube I go more into detail on the sort of just like a brief summary

46:15

Of how the Lord drew me out of that, but it was when he was talking about the

46:20

New Age I I mean it just it broke me because I realized I had just believed

46:26

Another lie, yeah, and I really thought that like New Age and everything that it was offering me, you know

46:33

This access to secret knowledge Was just another deception and so it broke me and it actually really opened me up to hear the gospel

46:41

It softened my heart and gave me the fear of the Lord and I even started reading parts of Scripture like in Deuteronomy talking about How witchcraft and sorcery is an abomination to the

46:52

Lord and I'm an abomination to God, you know So different things like that and how

46:58

Lucifer Lucifer masquerades himself as an angel of light Yeah, so different things like that just started to really really open me up to the gospel.

47:06

Wow. Yeah. No, that's really good I appreciate you saying that and I think it's also interesting to that and you talk about going full circle here in the last episode

47:13

You're giving some statistics of all the different car accidents that happen in the moon of people who are in the moon

47:20

Yeah, and I can't talk about Steve Hassan story now while Steve Hassan's not a believer

47:26

You know, he experienced experienced something similar and almost in a way God uses a car accident

47:32

To kind of really shake you up and sometimes it plays things in your life and again what I want to tell people to is that when you think again when we talk about the supernatural things that happen in the unseen realm when you when you talk about encountering

47:45

Jesus on a psychedelic mushroom trip again Most people you call it like you're skepticals right where people will have that in Dave skepticism but if we just look at like what does the scripture say about what

47:57

God does with rescuing someone from darkness to light in collage and it says for he rescued us from the domain of darkness and Transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved

48:06

Son and that's exactly where you were You're on the psychedelic mushroom trip in the domain of darkness.

48:12

God came there and rescued you This doesn't again. This doesn't mean go on a psychedelic mushroom trip.

48:17

We are not saying that don't do that In fact, that would almost be pharmakia with which the

48:23

Bible speaks against But it means that God is the one who operates and God is the

48:28

God is the one who does the saving There and so you need all I would just encourage you when you hear these supernatural experiences

48:35

You need to realize that there's a look at the like we can't see that realm. I can't see what you experienced

48:43

Primarily the reason one of the reasons why to is because God says don't go there There is a spiritual reality, right and I mean it does you you open doorways to I mean the demonic

48:56

Right, you'd really do and so there's a reason that you know, he warns against it, right?

49:01

Those doors aren't necessarily things that you then have people to shut He sees all of that I mean and if we were to know everything it really does make you crazy, right?

49:11

No, it does. And in fact, this is a different this would how we would differentiate what we explore those topics

49:17

It's not in the sense where Joe Rogan will be on for example He'll be talking about these he'll be talking with Russell Brand and they'll be talking about these different psychedelic trips and the green men

49:26

They're talking to like oh, well, that's a cool thing What we're doing is that we're acknowledging what they're talking about and doing is legitimate

49:33

But at the same time we're saying it's not a good thing. Yeah, so I don't I don't ever want to say

49:38

Oh, that's really cool. I want to know I want to see what you experience I don't know. I don't want to do that because that's a no

49:44

God says that's a no -fly zone in the same way back in the 80s you have the Cold War where you had no fly zones no fly zones where if you

49:51

Went over there didn't matter your intentions Those make those Russian Migs are gonna go after you and want to shoot you down because you've crossed that line

49:58

This is don't go over here. Yeah, that's so that that's the emphasis We want to do when we again when we look at the the invisible realm

50:05

We want you have to acknowledge it for what it is But at the same time you have to you have to do it through scripture

50:12

Yeah And I think one thing to hit on too is that we're not saying that these experiences determine truth by any means just because you're

50:21

Experiencing something doesn't mean you're interpreting it at all correctly exactly God's Word Determines truth and there's a reason in his grace and his mercy.

50:30

He warns us from delving into these things So just because you experience something or you have a crazy body higher

50:35

You have these crazy hallucinations or your astral projecting into this different area doesn't mean what you are

50:42

Experiencing gives you Knowledge, right doesn't mean it gives you truth. Instead.

50:48

I would say you're probably more falling into a line of a delusion Right, we don't want to be taken captive by Delusion, we don't like diluted

50:59

Yeah, exactly one last thing here and I'll let you I'll let you kind of give any final thoughts you have as we wrap up Here is again.

51:04

I just want to emphasize that You know what you experienced is is and was real just in regards to the supernatural experience and many people who listen to us they've come out of the new age and they and maybe there is a way where you saw you saw

51:18

Jesus in a vision or you had something happen that drew you out of it and ultimately what usually will happen is that those experience that experience leads you to either either a church where someone explains the gospel to you more fully or Leads you to the

51:35

Bible, so right so people will say yes faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God but I believe in many ways that God will actually use those circumstances of the supernatural experience to lead you to Though to lead you to faith that comes by the

51:51

Word of God So there's actually what's the process almost like Spurgeon will talk about one time Spurgeon talked about how well

51:57

I believe like yeah, I won't call me like I believe what caused me to believe well

52:02

I had faith what caused me to have faith so there's a whole pro There's a process in which we believe that God's sovereign in salvation that would actually like leads you to there

52:11

So again, I just want to I think I'm the reason why I'm saying this because we are headed in a direction

52:17

It's called just where we're gonna be talking a lot more about the supernatural and the unseen realm It just I believe it's just really imperative to lay a foundation first and foremost where we're we're looking at You know black and white by the

52:30

Word of God and having these experiences. We don't deny the experience Yeah, and what

52:36

I want to touch up on it too is um, cuz there there are people like my dad You know, he says like well,

52:41

I talked to Jesus, you know, or like moon like I you know experience of Jesus But you'll have people that will have an experience and it will like you said will either lead them to the true gospel or We'll lead them.

52:53

That's totally country contradictory to Scripture, right? So But I remember like when you know similar to Stephen bankers and some people when they're just in the presence of God and acknowledge, you know who he is and his sovereignty was

53:10

You know, he he uses our experiences for me was he used my brokenness and me realizing being in the presence of just his holiness and realizing there is nothing good in me and that I couldn't see anything but my own wickedness and that I needed a

53:25

Savior, you know, I couldn't save myself But um, yeah, just touching up on that point that people can have an experience and say well

53:31

I know this is true because I experienced this but it's not based in And anything but their experience right or it's it's very it's just based on their their own emotion about it their feeling

53:42

Yeah, and that's where it can get really really dangerous. It's right. Is it leading to the gospel?

53:49

Scripture and or is it leading to something that's that contradicts it? Absolutely. So you at the end of day you want to test those experiences by a scripture

53:57

Absolutely Good. Well, this has been a good introductory to 2021 We're starting off the year with a bang

54:06

It is weird given that we're this is 2020 when we're doing this and we're actually by time you hear this in 2021

54:11

But hey time travel. Yeah. No, it is weird. It's kind of like we want Because in many way we were sort of vicariously like trying to get out of 2020 sooner rather than later

54:22

But yeah, it's been a wild and crazy year. But anyways, I thank you all for hanging out here Hana Thank you for coming.

54:30

Yeah Super fun. Yes. Thank you No It was good.

54:38

I feel like the second episode thing is definitely cooked it kicked in For the most part it did including unfortunately some mispronunciations of the of Sengamon's successors, but hey, no, it's perfect It's all good.

54:54

All right. This has been a lot of fun super fun I'm super excited for what's ahead and if you are super excited we will about what

55:01

We have in store and if you want to support us and partner with us go to the cultist show calm and go to the

55:07

Donate tab. You can donate one time or partner with us monthly and allow this program to continue

55:13

So all that being said we'll talk to you all next time on cultists We enter into the kingdom of the cults.