Time to Grow Up - Part 5

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He Gets It But He Doesn't Get It - Part 6

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Today's show is sponsored by Curios Consulting. That is Curios with a Y. K -Y -R -I -O -S.

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Make it happen. The link is in the description. All right, everybody, let's get back into it.

00:39

It is Friday, although in the Monday video, I said it was Friday too. That's because I recorded it on last

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Friday. But yeah, in any case, I was planning on doing a fishing video, and I was going to talk about not taking the bait, you know, because a lot of people are saying you can't take the bait, you know, the antisemitism bait.

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It's obviously an allusion to fishing. I was going to do a video while fishing all about not taking the bait and how it's just so twisted up these days.

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So many of the people that are telling you not to take the bait are themselves actually taking the bait.

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The thing about bait is that there's different kinds of fish out there in the water, right? There's stupid fish that they'll take the bait no matter what.

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In fact, there was one time, I even got this on video, I think, where I caught the exact same fish twice in the exact same place with the exact same bait in consecutive casts.

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So this fish was so stupid that it almost dies by taking the bait. And then in the very next cast, seconds later, it takes the same bait.

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And it was the same fish. You could tell by the markings, exactly identical, same size, same fish, everything. And then there are some fish that are, you know, they're wise, you know, they're smart.

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They've seen a lot, especially in high pressured areas where there's a lot of fishermen, you know, they learn to not take the bait.

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But the thing about bait is that it's tricky. You know, the whole point of bait, if you go to the bait store, all the bait is attempting to trick the fish, right?

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So, you know, if you don't take the bait ever, then you die because you're hungry. Anyway, but it's better to be the fisherman, you know, it's way better to be the fisherman than to be the fish trying to decide not to take the bait.

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But anyway, we'll talk, we'll do that later. You will do that later, not taking the bait. I remember local distance was like, don't take the bait.

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And I did a video talking about how he's actually taking the bait when he says don't take the bait and the bait, you know, it's all about the bait.

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In any case, we'll do that video some other time because my camera, the battery for the camera that I use when

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I do fishing videos is done. It doesn't work anymore. So we got to figure that one out.

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So instead of that, I'm going to do a video about the Sean DeMars, Doug Wilson interview again.

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So we'll see if we get into some of the bait, you know, not taking the bait. We'll see. Before I do, though, let me say this.

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I'm going to be speaking at the Shepherd's Crook intensive. It's coming up in a few weeks.

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It's in May, May 16th to 18th at Eminence, Missouri, in a campground. There's going to be fishing.

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I mean, this is the thing, you know, when Jared, Pastor Jared told me that he wanted me to come to this thing,

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I was like, wait, is there going to be fishing there? And then he said, yeah, it's all about fishing. I was like, all right, I'm there. Very simple as that.

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I go to the John Harris conference. There's fishing there. I guess the lesson is, if you want me to come speak at the conference and you want to hear what

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I have to say, there has to be fishing there. Otherwise I won't go. Simple as that. Simple as that.

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But this looks like a great time. Check out the shepherds crook dot co slash intensive. It's not like a normal conference.

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It's more of a men's getaway, you know what I mean? And you can talk about some things and we're going to do some fishing, probably some hiking, some outdoor stuff.

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I think there's going to be some weightlifting here. I mean, Matt Reynolds from Barbell logic will be there. We'll see. We'll see how that goes.

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Yeah. So anyway, let's let's continue. Shonda Mars. Yeah. Don't take the bait.

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I don't know if that's what's going to be about. I think we're in the the woke right. Maybe we're in the woke right section here.

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Hold on. Hold on a second. Let me let me pause for a second. All right. I found my spot. Here we go.

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Let's let's do this. Vain philosophies oftentimes grease the skids.

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Yeah. But we don't really need help coming up with sin. A lot of this a lot of the agitation on the right is envy driven and envy is something we get from Adam.

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Right. The material and the lies and the stories that are told, we can get from the propagandist.

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Yeah. Two more factors that I might add to that. The rampant antisemitism on the woke right.

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I actually like the term woke right. You know, we were making fun of it the other day, but I kind of like it.

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You know what I mean? Because it doesn't describe, I don't think the the actual far right people that well, but it definitely does describe the the the wokeness of those on the right that were against wokeness in woke wars.

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One, because they have the same tactics, like we said last week, you know, and in antisemitism,

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I saw Samuel say, say the other day on Twitter, Samuel say, say he said, antisemitism is anti gospel.

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And it's like he very proudly, you know, antisemitism is anti gospel as if it might as well have said, here

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I stand, here I stand. And that's the exact same kind of thing that the woke, you know, left says about racism.

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You know what I mean? Like antisemitism, anti racism. Well, I guess it'd be racism is anti gospel.

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So so it's basically just a replacement for the racism, you know, is anti gospel. Here I stand. Racism is anti gospel.

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It's like, OK, thanks. I mean, I didn't know that. You're telling me now for the first time.

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But yeah, so there's a tendency for the for the right to to see the problems with woke, you know, culture and the virtue signaling and all the nonsense and the fuzzy definitions and all that.

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And then now they're doing it with antisemitism and somehow they feel justified. It's just it's just the repackaging of woke wars.

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It's as simple, simple as that. That's the woke right. That's the woke right. And and with this new bill, you know, they're defining antisemitism in in this broad kind of a way that, you know, if you if you speak the

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New Testament, that's antisemitic because there's parts in there that that clearly say that, you know, the

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Jews killed the Lord of Glory. And if you say that, well, that's antisemitic, according to this broad definition.

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And, you know, to their credit, a lot of the woke right is like, yeah, this is not such a great bill. But the thing is, you you helped create this bill every single time you said, the rise of antisemitism.

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This is terrible. This is so horrible. You know, every single time you did that, you made it easier for them to pass a stupid bill like this.

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This is your fault. I put this on your on your footstep, on your footstep, your doorstep.

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I put this on your doorstep. And so, yeah, there you go. The woke right. It's real.

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It's real. I'm telling you. Base level foundational sin stuff there. We'll keep that. I think whenever you spend so much time engaging with people in a particular battle, it's just so easy for the way that they do battle to become the way that you do battle.

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Yeah. Fight fire with fire. Yeah. That's right. Right. And Jesus kind of said to do the opposite of that.

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There's a guy. It's not exactly true. I mean, that's a very simplistic way to look at that, you know, to say that, you know, when you're fighting someone, the way they do battle becomes the way you do battle.

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Jesus said to do the opposite. That sounds really nice, but it's not the whole story, because that's not always the case.

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It depends on what they're doing. So if they're doing something sinful and then you decide to do something sinful in return.

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Yeah, of course, Jesus would say not to do that. Right. But if you're in a war, like an actual war. Right. And the enemy is shooting at you.

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You don't go, well, Jesus told me not to shoot back because I'm not supposed to do the same thing. Well, no, that's it's appropriate to shoot each other in a war.

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And so it's not exactly true. It's a nice little sound bite and it might preach well, but it's not really actually at the heart of it.

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True. It all depends on what's happening. And so if you're fighting the woke church, you know, and they're fighting you politically, it's

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OK to fight back politically. It just depends on what you're doing and if it's or not.

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It's not that, you know, you can do any sin you want as long as you're fighting the enemy. That's obviously not the case.

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And nobody believes that. But there's a lot more available to us, a lot of options and tools and levers that we can pull and stuff.

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There's a lot more available to us than a lot. A lot of times what pastors say is available to us.

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And so it's OK to use political power. It's OK to seek political power to get to have good ends.

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It's that's all OK. It's nothing dirty about that. There's nothing shameful about that. That's a tool that we need to utilize.

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We need to go for if that's your area. There's a guy on the right,

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Kurt Schlichter, who's got a tagline that he addresses to the liberals. He said, you're not going to like the rules.

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You invented the you invented these new rules and we're coming back at you and we're going to use your rules to come after you.

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And you're not going to like the old blues song. It ain't no fun when the rabbits got the gun. That that's what we're looking at here.

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Many moons ago, Russell Berger and I on defending. I think that gives liberals way too much credit. I think

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I think that the progressives, the left, they're intentionally causing chaos.

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They want the new rules. They love the new rules and they don't care about the results.

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They it's not so that that that they're not going to like the new rules, whatever he's saying there. They're trying to cause chaos, obviously, and they're and they're being very successful at it.

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So maybe not the rank and file, but but the leadership. That's the whole point. Did a podcast series against critical theory proper and then all the manifestations thereof.

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Queer theory, fat theory, every theory, critical pedagogy. But then our last episode in the series was a word to those with whom we agree.

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Be careful. Be careful. You can oppose wokeness in a way that is unbecoming of Christ.

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We took a lot of heat for that because they were very happy when we were going, yeah, woke is bad and woke is bad.

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And they should be happy when we say that. But when we gave that last little bit of warning, you know, we caught a lot of flack.

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I didn't watch that video, so I can't really say anything about it. But if I had to guess, it wasn't catching flack because of a warning.

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It probably had to do with the content of that warning. You know what I mean? So it's you know, we need more information, obviously, if I had to guess things were said that were probably objectionable.

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But who knows? I mean, some people are sensitive. So I mean, I'm not going to say that that's not possible. But yeah,

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I mean, I've given warnings before, too. And to the right. And there are some things that that should be concerning to those people on the right.

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But at the end of the day, we're still like, it's like, it always amazes me, right?

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Because you get you get these wise pastor types, right? And there's nothing I'm not against pastors.

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You guys all know that I'm not going to even spend any more time qualifying that. And they're like, you don't want to fall on either ditch.

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You don't want to fall on either ditch. You know, you got to walk the the middle road, you know, and that's good advice.

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Yeah, you don't want to fall in either ditch, but we got a ditch over here. We got a ditch over here. And right now we're over here.

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Right. And so really, there's only one ditch you got to worry about the one you're right next to about to fall into.

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And there is another ditch, but it's way over there. And so we're spending all this time talking about this ditch way over here where we really have no danger of falling in it yet.

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We're not even close. And they're like, Oh, you gotta worry about each ditch, you know, and we really got to spend a lot of time talking about this ditch over here.

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It's like, maybe if we're if we're middle of the way, maybe you could start talking a little bit more about that ditch.

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It makes more sense. But right now, we're in no danger. We're about to fall off the cliff. We're no danger of this ditch.

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And so your wisdom signaling, it doesn't really do anything for us. It doesn't do anything for us, except it kind of keeps us over closer to this ditch that we're about to fall in.

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So you got to understand the times, man, you got to you got to get with the time. That's the thing when people say you don't know what time it is.

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It's exactly that there. People are spending time talking about this ditch where that we're nowhere near. And all it does is keep us closer to this ditch that we're all the way in, essentially.

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You got to know what time it is. You had any of that in your ministry where you where you have not the flack, excuse me.

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Have you done any of that? Like don't fight fire with fire? Absolutely. Man.

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I've said over and over to people don't take the bait. Don't take the bait. Don't take the bait on the anti Semitism, which is starting to manifest itself on the right.

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I've been fighting that tooth and nail. And a lot of people are have sort of a lot of people on the right have responded with an

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OK, boomer kind of thing. You're you're a boomer con. You're a Reaganite. You're you're that kind of conservative.

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We are very grateful to you for the decades of service you put in. And we'll take it from here.

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It's it's time to take grandpa's car keys. William Wolfe kind of reminds me of that. And I think he stood up at one of your events and asked you a question.

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Anyways, let's talk about William Wolfe in just a second. But this is this is the this is the this is the problem that we're having.

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You know what I mean? Because, you know, don't take the bait on the anti Semitism stuff.

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Right. And it's like, OK, like, fine. I don't think anti Semitism is real in general because I know what they call anti Semitism.

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And I'm not saying that's what you're calling anti Semitism. But the fraction of a percent of people that really hate

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Jews because they're Jews is so minute. It's the same exact thing with the racism stuff.

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It's the same thing as woke wars one. And you're telling me that I got to be real worried about this rise of anti Semitism.

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And ninety nine point nine percent of it is completely fabricated. It's the kind of thing where if you say

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Christ is king, you're an anti Semite. That's ninety nine percent of the of the anti Semitism that's out there.

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It's the same tactic as woke wars one. And for some reason, Doug doesn't see it that way.

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And that's fine. I'm not going to call him a boomer. I don't use that word. I'm not going to call him a boomer con or whatever, whatever.

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I don't know why he doesn't see it, but he doesn't see it. And he's telling you he's he's he's fanning the flames of the fire.

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There's this big rise in anti Semitism and it's tolerated and it's just rampant. It's institutional.

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And now we've got the anti Semitism bill that's coming through Congress, where it's like, yeah, you say the

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Jews killed Christ. Well, I'm anti Semitic. And it's like you participated in that.

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You fan those flames. You made it so that it was very easy for Republicans to be like, oh, yeah, it's a speech.

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Hate speech. Now, I know Doug doesn't agree with the bill. That's irrelevant, though. You you you might not agree with the fire, but you're fanning the flames.

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And that's a problem. That's a problem. I'm not saying you're doing it intentionally or with malicious motivations or you're stupid.

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I'm not saying that. But but just like every evangelical who's against certain

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D .I. laws and stuff like that, but still it's like, oh, racism, so rampant. They fan those flames.

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You're flanning these flames. And I don't know why you don't see it, but it's there.

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Sure. I mean, again, I said this during Woke Wars one, and I'm going to say it during Woke Wars two. There are some people that hate black people.

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Simple as that. I've met them. I've met them. I know they exist.

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I know racism can be real. I've experienced it. It's fine.

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It's I get it. I understand. But ninety nine percent of racism is fabricated and they fabricate it with a weird definition.

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It's the same with antisemitism. It's the same as antisemitism. And you have fanned those flames,

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Doug. In my opinion, you have fanned those flames when you when you when you try to nuance Christ as king.

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Oh, it's an antisemitic taunt that gives them a little bit more lift. It gives them more lift to do stupid things like what they're doing in Congress.

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That's a problem. I'm not saying you got to give us the car keys, but for some reason, in my opinion,

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I can see this and you don't see it. And you did see it the first time around.

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Doesn't mean we have to, you know, put you on the sidelines or anything like that. Don't get all crazy. I'm not saying you,

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Doug. I'm talking about my, you know, my listeners. Don't get all crazy. It's not like Doug's time is over. It's not like that.

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It's not like that. But hear me saying ninety nine point nine nine percent of antisemitism is fake.

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They used to make jokes about this. This is the funny part. It's just like Jews used to make jokes about this exact thing.

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There was a Seinfeld episode where Jerry goes on on like the Tonight Show or something and he talks about his uncle

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Leo. Do you remember this? And he was making fun of his uncle Leo for saying everything was antisemitic.

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Oh, you know, like the waitress gave me a undercooked piece of chicken antisemite.

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Somebody cut me off in my lane. Antisemitic. Like they used to make jokes about this because this is how it's always been.

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There's always been fake antisemitism and it's been ramped up to 11. Of course,

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I mean, it definitely has been ramped up to 11, but now I'm supposed to pretend it's real. I don't know.

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I don't know. Oh, man.

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And then the William Wolfe thing. That was so weird. That was so weird where he says

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William Wolfe is like this. And I'm just like, what? Where did that come from?

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William Wolfe? He's like this? It made no sense.

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It seemed out of nowhere, out of left field. And I was thinking, man, this guy must have a problem with William Wolfe or something.

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And then later you'll see in a second, he says, well, I'm friends with William. Like what?

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I mean, I could, I'll say this. I could have thought of a bunch of other names that would have been more appropriate there than William Wolfe.

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But it just seemed out of William Wolfe as an example of this. What? Man, if you are friends,

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Sean, if you are friends with William Wolfe, like, I don't know, man, like you might need to reach out to him and explain yourself a little bit.

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It just came out of nowhere. William Wolfe? I mean,

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William Wolfe's not a close personal friend of mine or anything. We're friendly, of course. But like, what is he talking about?

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He was at one of the events, but he's real warm. And he wouldn't.

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And William's a personal friend. So Doug was shocked, too. William Wolfe? He was at one of the events.

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He goes, Doug says he was at one of the events, but he's not. That's not what I'm talking about.

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And this is the thing. This is a good example of why I think Doug is not like it's not time to take grandpa's car keys here because I think, you know,

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Doug, I'm not going to walk what I said back. I do think he's fanning these flames of he gives the antisemitism bill a little bit of lift, not a ton, but he gives it some lift.

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Even though he doesn't like the bill, he's not doing it intentionally, but he's one of these guys that I think is capable of making distinctions.

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You know what I mean? He makes distinctions. And so while he I disagree with him, but he thinks that antisemitism is on the rise.

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He's not the kind of guy to be like, oh, yeah, and William Wolfe's one of them. Like, you know, but the thing is, a lot of people don't make those distinctions, right?

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So, Doug, it's not time to take grandpa's car keys yet. Maybe there will come a time in every grandpa has a time when you got to take his car keys away.

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We get it. We get it. But William, William Wolfe, he's like, that's not what

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I'm talking about. Come on. I'm not trying to talk bad about him, but I'm not trying to talk bad about him.

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But yeah, he's one of those guys. He's just one of those man with friends like these.

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I mean, William Wolfe, man, I feel I got a feel for you, buddy. With friends like these, who needs enemies? The ship's going down.

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And he was like, that's defeatist. Right. I mean, anyways. Yeah. So, yeah, we we've issued the warnings and while recognizing that the different threat levels posed by these, which is the the no enemies to the right discussion of we're not going to reactively cancel people to the right just because the left starts calling names.

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We know how that works. So some of the even the back to the question of death by a thousand cuts, at some point, people have to realize if you get used to putting daylight between you and another

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Christian over lies, it'll just get used on you. You're incentivizing the thing.

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And and there's a there's a real need for if it's not true, that's when you want to put your arm around.

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And this is a Christian. This is a brother and not put the distance because it's because you're trying to save your credibility with people who are willing to lie.

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But by the way, you should put your arm around your brother, even if there's some truth there.

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I mean, like, I understand the urge to denounce everything that you see that you don't agree with, but it's a stupid urge.

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It's a sophomoric urge. It's a it's a it's a weak urge. It is possible to be friends with someone that says something that you wouldn't say you don't agree with and to just not say anything or better yet to affirm him as a brother in the

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Lord. If you have no reason to believe he is not. It doesn't have to be based on like a total lie, right?

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It could be based in a little bit of truth and you can still put your arm around your brother in the

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Lord and be like, it's a solid dude. It's I mean, we can do that, too.

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We can do that, too. I mean, I'm not trying to criticize Joe Rigney because I agree with what he said there, of course, but this is the thing.

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It's like like and I get this kind of stuff all the time. Every single day

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I get something like this. When are you going to denounce so -and -so? When are you still friends with so -and -so? You still affirm his

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Christianity so -and -so? And it's like and it's usually the same three names. Oh, man.

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What a crazy world out there. It is a wild world, wild world. And that's the tool. That's the tool the leftists love to use.

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And I don't think Doug ever has used that tool, but it's a tool that people on the right also use.

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And you can just ignore him. You can just ignore him.

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Or you could put your arm around your brother. Simple as that. Simple as that.

25:06

Everybody. And we're never going to give you that credibility anyway. Right. Yeah. Chase that as long as you want. Can I read you guys two quotes from a pastor friend who is generally sympathetic to you guys?

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He watched a recent video and he wrote these. And I asked him,

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I said, hey, that's a really good question. I think. Can I just read that in the interview? And he said, yeah. So he defends mockery but missed the real issue.

25:33

I think he would be you. Doug defends mockery but missed the real issue, which is his loose tribe of online followers treat other

25:41

Christians as the enemies of the truth with their mockery. Let's stop there. Let's do the first one. I think one of the fair critiques that I've heard against Moscow is not that mockery or sarcasm is in itself sinful, but it is more often than not aimed at true brothers in Christ in a way that's unhelpful rather than being aimed at people outside of the flock.

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Let me take this one before Doug answers. And if I remember correctly, Doug's answer is very confusing.

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And I did not find it very helpful if we're going to use that terminology.

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But here's the thing. Mockery is a tool. All that kind of stuff is obviously a tool that Christ himself uses.

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The people that say Christians should never mock or whatever, they're clueless.

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I mean, they don't even deserve a response. They're so far out to lunch, they have no freaking idea what they're talking about.

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So let's just put them aside. But then there are those that say, well, you know, you shouldn't do it with brothers.

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And they're also out to lunch, not quite as much as the other people. Because again, like Christ's example,

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Christ mocked brothers. It always just boggles my mind.

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Like what Bible are you reading? What are you reading? You've got to deploy mockery carefully, of course.

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But the standard isn't what some random person finds helpful. Okay? Because you'll never meet that standard because there's always someone that's going to say it was unhelpful.

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That's not the standard, whether it's helpful or not, because it's helpful depending on what your goals are.

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So if I want to shame someone for having a shameful opinion, and I choose to deploy mockery, they might think, oh man,

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I feel ashamed. And they're not going to find that very helpful. And maybe their friends won't either. But my point was to shame you.

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My point was to make fun of your stupid opinion. And so for what I was going for, it was effective.

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And so that's not the standard here. And then to try to bring in his loose group of online followers, they're going to really nail that one to the wall in just a second, because they do answer that one very well, in my opinion.

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But it's just like, that's not a fair critique. This is one of the fair critiques

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I've heard. What about your online followers? Like, what? Well, I would say scripturally, the people who are targets of scriptural mockery are almost always religious leaders within the covenant.

28:42

So now we're getting back into a little bit of the Pharisees, Sadducees. Yeah. So the religious, when

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Jesus, in Jesus' day, there were about 6 ,000 Pharisees. They were the most respected religious group in Israel until Jesus got done with them.

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Jesus just savaged them. And nobody calls their group a resurgent

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Phariseeism. He just wrecked that. And I think that Ezra was probably the first Pharisee of the scribal tradition that began studying the law.

29:21

And so I think, and if you look at the etymology of the word, Phariseeism is very close to Puritanism.

29:29

It's the same kind of, it was the same kind of movement. And I think when Phariseeism began, it was a noble thing, and it went to seed.

29:37

And then Puritanism, I think, was a noble thing, one of the best things ever. And then their Puritanical types downstream, it went to seed.

29:44

And so when Jesus went after the people, what was he going after?

29:52

He was going after the broadness of their phylacteries, the length of their robes, how long they prayed, how they gave alms, all religious things, right?

30:02

That's biblical. But didn't Jesus basically say that they were sons of hell?

30:08

Right. And members of the covenant. Yeah. So again, I guess that's, we're going back to a little bit of a Presbyterian distinction. Is that a

30:15

Presbyterian distinction? I mean, were they not in the covenant? Some of my

30:21

Baptist friends, can you weigh in here? Were the Pharisees not part of the covenant? How could you say that?

30:29

I mean, what would be the argument? Here, let me know what you think. I mean, obviously, the

30:34

Pharisees that went to hell, you know, obviously they're not saved. We get that.

30:40

But how were they not part of the covenant? And you mock and slander someone who hasn't lost the gospel.

30:48

Well, slander is... No, no, the other S -word. S -H -I, no. Satire. Yeah.

30:54

Mocking... But do you see, like, I know Sean just misspoke there, but mocking and slander are connected in Big Evil Land.

31:02

Like, it's the same thing. You know, people use the word mocking and slander as synonyms in Big Evil Land, and that is one of the big problems.

31:10

And Sean, it's going to take time for Sean to deprogram that in his mind, because in his mind, I mean, nine times out of ten, you see someone say, you're slandering him.

31:19

What they mean is you're mocking him, and they're totally different. Satire, sarcasm, you guys do that against people who haven't abandoned the gospel, who aren't

31:30

Pharisees, who aren't sons of hell. They just, you know, they might have different cultural impulses. Yeah, so this is where I would put...so

31:36

the mockery and satire, the faithful biblical kind, is a form of rebuke, okay?

31:42

And it operates on a dimmer switch. So when you're dealing with someone that you think is actually not a

31:48

Christian... That is gold. I mean, again, I have to say it.

31:54

Joe Rigney is impressive here. Mockery is a form of rebuke. 100%.

32:02

Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll never forget. One time, well, let me not give you the details, but one time there was someone who saw me doing something cowardly, and it was 100 % cowardly.

32:24

I mean, I'm not...I was guilty. I was guilty. I was doing something so cowardly, and it was someone that was very close to me.

32:36

And they said, like, what, are you wearing a skirt? I mean, what'd you put a skirt on?

32:43

They're mocking me. And, you know, a lot of times, especially women, will say, did you have to do that?

32:52

Did you have to? Let me back up. It hurt. I was really mad.

32:59

In the moment, I was so pissed, and I held on to that anger for a couple days, and it really hurt me.

33:11

And I look back on that, and I'm like, man, that was like, he was exactly right.

33:19

He was exactly right. And I look at that as one of the reasons why this person is such a great person.

33:28

You know what I mean? He helped me. It stuck with me.

33:36

It stuck with me. And I think about it even to this day. And it's so easy, and a lot of women, and also, you know, very effeminate men will say stuff like this.

33:47

Did you have to say it that way? Did you have to do it that way? And the answer is no, I didn't have to do it that way, but I chose to.

33:58

Isn't that enough? Mockery is a form of rebuke, and you need to use it in the right moment at the right time.

34:12

And you're never going to get it perfectly, but that's what you got to do.

34:17

That's what you got to think through. And then Sean could say, well, isn't that just the way that the pagans fight?

34:24

So Jesus said you shouldn't do that. He's like, well, again, that's not the standard. That's not the standard.

34:32

So yeah, I mean, this mockery thing, it keeps coming up, and it's going to keep coming up, because we've got a lot of people that have been catechized by Big Eva that, you know, anyway.

34:43

It gets turned up to 11, and Jesus does, you sons of hell, that sort of thing. But at a smaller level, it can be used for a more mild rebuke.

34:52

Hey, knock it off, idiot. So it's that sort of thing. But the dimmer switch means if you see satire, mockery, caricature as legitimate tools for rebuking sin and folly, and you just need to grade it up, then when it comes to the way that we try to use it, we try to appropriately dish it out.

35:13

The interesting thing about your question, though, was to say mockery and satire and dismissiveness is inappropriate against other

35:23

Christians, that's what Ligon was doing in the interview, right? And the interesting thing about it is

35:30

I don't actually object to his use of it, right? To caricature, to say, you know, this is what they're doing, and to draw us with big ears because we have big ears as a caricature is a legitimate tactic.

35:44

Jesus does it. He does kind of have big ears. He's got some pretty large ears.

35:50

I do too, actually. I have some big ears, and they stick out, you know? My ears stick out. Yeah, this is good stuff.

35:57

I mean, how many times have we observed this exact behavior, where someone's saying, mockery is unbecoming of a

36:07

Christian as they're mocking? And how many times have we said,

36:13

I just want to point out that you're mocking right now, as you're saying, I shouldn't mock, and I don't mind that you're doing that, it was okay, but I just want to point that out, like, even you use mockery.

36:26

I mean, Blake Callens is known for this. I mean, it's so funny, and I've had some side conversations with Blake Callens about this, where he's like, you shouldn't make fun of someone's appearance, because, you know,

36:37

I said that, what's his face, Jake Meador looks like a woman, which he does. You shouldn't make fun of someone's appearance.

36:45

And then, like, a few tweets later, he's saying so -and -so is fat, and this and that, and it's like, what's the deal with that,

36:52

Blake? And of course, he always has an excuse. Well, this time, it was appropriate. Like, okay. I mean, that's fine.

36:59

I think what I said, Jake looks like a woman. That was appropriate. So there you go. The camel going through the eye of needle, hyperbole, the prophets do it.

37:07

It's a legitimate tactic. The thing I objected to was criticizing that tactic while using it.

37:15

Sure, but apart from League, just in general. Apart from League, go to this. When Jesus attacks the

37:21

Pharisees and savages them, He doesn't name any individual Pharisee.

37:28

The closest... This part is so weird to me. It really is, because I don't...I mean, it's true, but what does that have to do with anything?

37:39

So all of a sudden, you can't name people? I mean, it's...and Sean, to his credit, kind of calls Doug out on this, because Doug does name people, and Doug tries to defend that in a weird way, which

37:51

I don't think really makes...kind of misses the point, in my opinion. But Jesus does specifically address specific people, maybe not by name when

38:03

He's criticizing the Pharisees in general, but He does address His rebukes to certain people. I mean, we've got...and

38:09

believers, too. So we've got the Pharisees that are, you know, sons of hell.

38:14

You know, you make your proselytites twice the sons of hell that you are. Okay, so let's just say that they're out of the covenant, which they're not, but let's just say that they are, okay?

38:25

What about Peter? Get behind me, Satan! Get behind me,

38:31

Satan! What about the nicer mock, the sons of thunder?

38:38

What about that kind of stuff? I mean, it's just like... What Bible are you guys reading?

38:47

He does this! He does this, and we should follow his example. Anyway, let's listen to Doug's answer here.

38:54

I do think that Sean, you know, correctly said, is that really true? He just doesn't name them.

39:02

He's talking about a particular movement and describes them a particular way. The way...if

39:08

I did...talking about charismatic, a charismatic church, and let's say I called it

39:13

Knee Deep in Glory Worship Center, or let's say... You're good, man. That's why you keep reading even if you don't agree.

39:20

So Jesus is categorizing a group a particular way.

39:26

It's a caricature of a group. So if I were a cartoonist, and I wanted to draw a picture of an anti -nuke protest, and I drew a picture of a hippie chick lady, and beads, and wireless glasses, and a tie -dye shirt, everybody would know that I was drawing a liberal peacenik, right?

39:48

But I'm not picking on any individual, right? But people who fit that description, who fit in that caricature, would feel affronted.

39:57

But I'm not...when I talk about evangelical goo churches, or orthodusty, you know, reformed orthodusty churches, or charismatic

40:08

Knee Deep in Glory, that kind of thing, there are numerous occasions where if the shoe fits, wear it.

40:16

But I'm not attacking any particular brother in Christ. What about your comment against Russell Moore in your most recent...what

40:24

is it called? No Quarter November? Okay, which one? So he calls him out instantly.

40:29

I mean, you've talked about Russell Moore. And yeah, I mean, it's true. But Doug's...so

40:38

Doug is gonna defend himself there and say, well, you know, I didn't really insult him, like, for real.

40:43

Like, I didn't really mock him. Like, I just kind of mentioned him kind of in a dismissive way. And that's true.

40:49

But I just don't see the hesitancy of owning specific mockery. I mean, it's totally legitimate.

40:55

It's totally fine. And there's no reason to try to make it seem like it's not.

41:01

So Doug kind of got a little bit in trouble there. And good on Sean for calling him out.

41:07

We've been doing this since before...Russell Moore trying to raise money.

41:13

It was in the trailer. Oh, in the trailer. Yeah. Raising money for the ERLC. Yeah, yeah.

41:19

Yeah. So you named Russell Moore. I named Russell Moore. Yeah, I'm just...because you were saying, like, yeah,

41:24

I'm speaking generalities. And by the way, I think you're at your best when you are doing that. But sometimes you don't, though.

41:30

Right. So with Russell Moore raising...I think it was Russell Moore raising money for the ERLC. And I was talking about being cautious,

41:39

I think, at that moment. All I did was name him. You don't think you mocked him?

41:45

For what? Well, dang, I feel like I should have watched it before I came to this interview.

41:51

In the moment, it felt like, oh, he took a shot at Russell Moore. No, I named him. And basically what I did was...

41:57

So Doug, again, this whole conversation is totally unnecessary because, yes, he did take a shot at Russell Moore, but he really didn't mock him in any direct way.

42:08

I mean, it was sort of a mockery, but it was like such a nothing. It was like...what

42:15

was it? I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was just like, yeah, it was sort of a dismissive and it wasn't supposed to be nice, but he didn't call him a son of hell or something extreme.

42:26

It was just like... But anyway, this whole conversation is totally irrelevant because it's okay to be personal about it.

42:33

It's okay to do it. You know what I mean? Like, if you want to call Daniel Darling a beetle -shaped man, you certainly can because he does have a lot of beetle features and he looks like a beetle -borg.

42:44

And it's funny because all the regime people in the book 1984 look like beetles just like Daniel Darling.

42:52

Maybe it's not that funny. We are on different teams as we're approaching this cultural moment.

43:00

His approach is very, very different from our approach. I was making a distinction between his approach and our approach where we're kind of out there with the flamethrower and he's doing something very cautious and mild, but it was not a big shot.

43:20

Fairly mild. Yeah, it was real mild. Real mild. Second quote. This is the dilemma for people like me.

43:27

The way Doug talks here about evangelicals responding to COVID and CRT makes me want to align with Moscow, but in practice the way his tribe mocks and scorns those

43:37

Christians on the other side makes me want nothing to do with them. It's almost like when you share edgy humor with kids and they go out in public and immediately use the same jokes in inappropriate ways and offend everyone by imitating their dad.

43:48

Right. That was pretty good. That is good. So I was going to stop because we've been at this for 45 minutes, but we're going to continue because they really nail

43:58

Sean to the wall here. Sean prefaces by saying this is a fair critique and it's just the complete opposite of a fair critique, but they're going to get him on this, so let's let him do it.

44:11

It's a real problem. So when I've written on satire, one of the things I've done is

44:16

I've written 21 principles for a satiric writer. Give him the guardrails.

44:23

Yeah. What are the guardrails? What are the principles? And I have no doubt that there are people who take their inspiration from me.

44:32

They're 19 years old. They read a couple of my blog posts and then go home and make fun of their mom.

44:39

Well, they shouldn't do that. It's a broken world.

44:46

You're the only thing. I'm not in favor of that. They shouldn't do it. And in that case, that's an extreme example, but there's so many other examples you can use.

44:56

In fact, I said this recently when I was at Joel Webbin's church. We had a men's gathering and I was talking about talking to people and some people misunderstood what

45:06

I was saying. I had to clarify it, but when you're talking about issues, you don't change the content, the actual meaning of the issues when you're talking to your grandparents, but you might have to change the language that you use.

45:21

You might have to adjust how you talk about it. One example is trash world. Andrew Risco talks about trash world or clown world, and that's just to talk about how insane and upside down everything is right now.

45:36

If you're talking to your grandma about trash world, you might not want to use the word trash world, not because you're ashamed of it, but she's not going to understand what you're talking about.

45:43

It's not going to make sense to her. And if I was going to talk about Daniel Darling with my father, I might not say he looks like a beetle

45:50

Borg because he doesn't have any idea what I'm talking about here, but I might call him a schlub.

45:56

I might say to my dad, look at this schlub over here. And he's just, you know, doing this and that. And, you know, you got to talk to people differently.

46:05

Obviously this is obvious. And so sometimes people get it wrong. Fine. What does that have to do with Doug?

46:14

It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. And by the way,

46:20

Doug, isn't the standard either. This is the, this is the whole point. Like I say certain things like in a certain way, because of how

46:27

I grew up and what I know and who I hang out with and stuff like that. And Doug might not get it.

46:33

Doug might think I go overboard sometimes and maybe I do. Maybe I do. That's why it's good to listen to Doug, but also he's not the standard.

46:41

He's also not the standard. So let's, let's, let's let them continue doing it.

46:47

Despite your stated, you're like, they're not actually imitating you because you said do it this way with these boundaries and they blew past the boundaries.

46:56

And so at that point, like there is an element of like, um, people, people are going to sin and you, and you can issue the exhortations and you can do all that you can do, but we don't, there's other than if they were in our church, where we might have some discipline.

47:14

If somebody, if it was somebody in our church and I'll say this, that's happened. There've been times when church members have gotten feisty online in ways that were unhelpful and they'll get a text from their elder saying,

47:25

Hey, cool it. We don't, we don't need, we don't need your help. I wish that elder would text some of the people who have been from your church attacking me online.

47:32

Oh, I wish, I wish they wouldn't attack me online.

47:37

Dude, grow up, grow up, dude. You got big arms, man. You got big, strong looking arms, dude.

47:44

I was going to say that earlier. I mean, you're just standing there. You got these massive arms. Maybe like put some of this up here, grow up.

47:55

Someone attacked me online. You're going to go tell their pastors. Are you freaking kidding me?

48:05

Dude, Sean, man, if you've been doing this a long time, grow up. It's the internet.

48:13

Dude, if somebody sends you a threat, yeah, you talk to their pastors. If someone's attacking you online, are you freaking kidding me?

48:19

How old are you? Man, are you wearing a skirt?

48:28

Didn't quite land there. Cause I'm not that, I'm not like that with Sean. But, uh, but if it was someone you cared about and they called you as, you know, pull up your skirt, man, maybe it would work.

48:41

But you know, I did want to say this. Some people were pointing this section out to say how Moscow is bad.

48:46

It's like a cult. And you know, their, their, their elders are monitoring you online. It's going to be bad. Cause they said you got feisty online.

48:53

That's bad. And they sent you an email, a text, dude, like you guys need to grow up too. In my opinion,

48:59

I'm just going to stay. And I wasn't, I'm not trying to make you mad at me guys. Cause I, you know, I love my, I love my followers.

49:05

I love my watchers, my viewers don't hate me for saying this, but I love you. I love you. And I got to tell you, you guys got to grow up too, because the thing is, even if you say, well, feisty,

49:17

I mean like who's going to, why would you be against him being feisty online? Well, obviously feisty is a, it's a word that can have different meanings, right?

49:27

But man, I do want my elders to talk to me. If they think I went over the line online, it doesn't mean that they're kicking me out of the church.

49:35

It doesn't mean that they don't like me. It means that they're watching out for me. That's a good thing. That's a good thing.

49:40

And my elders have said, I've been feisty online, you know, and obviously they didn't just say feisty. They, they pointed out specifically what they meant.

49:48

And we've had good discussions about it. Like, don't fear that conversation. You need that conversation online warriors.

49:55

You need it because online is real life. It's part of your life.

50:01

And it does offer a window into your thought process, your soul, your heart. And so if your elders are concerned with something you've said online, that's a legitimate text for them to send.

50:14

Don't be afraid of that conversation. You don't have to agree. I mean, in fact, with my elders, I've explained myself and I've said, let me explain what

50:21

I'm doing. Let me explain why I don't agree with what you're saying. This is, this is the situation.

50:28

And we've had good biblical conversations about Jesus and, and his example and Paul and his example and Nehemiah and his example.

50:36

And, and, and we walked away from that conversation, not agreeing, not agreeing, but it was a good conversation to have because I can hear them out and I take them seriously and they can hear me out and they take me seriously.

50:51

And they always leave me with a warning and they'll read me a passage about love is patient, kind, you know, words seasoned with salt and all that stuff.

51:00

And it's good for me to hear that. It's good for me to hear that. My, your, your elders, my elders, they are there for your soul.

51:12

They're there to keep guard and to, and to shepherd you. And God put them there for that.

51:19

That's a gift to you. So while Sean needs to freaking grow up, you know what

51:25

I mean? Oh, they attacked me on I really wish you would have stepped in here. They attacked me. Freaking cry me a river.

51:32

What's wrong with you, man? This is the internet. People that found issue with them saying, well, some of our elders, they've, they've seen people be feisty online and they've sent them a text, a text message.

51:47

You guys need to grow up too. You really do. That conversation is necessary for your soul.

51:54

Even if you are right, even if you're right and your pastor's wrong, it's possible that he's wrong.

52:00

It's possible that he's right, but it's possible that he's wrong. And it's good.

52:08

It's good for them to do that. So let me stop there. I've spoken long enough.

52:14

I love you guys. I hope you hear when I say grow up as a, as, as love.

52:21

It's, it's all love. That's the thing. It's all love. I love you guys. I hope you found this video helpful.