The Dangers of Doug Wilson & Mark Driscoll’s Ministry | Theocast

Hi, this is John.

And today with me in Knoxville, Tennessee is Justin.

We're together and recording an episode on a very sensitive topic.

And so we're gonna do our best.

I'm gonna go ahead and say this upfront for those of you that have children that might be listening, we try our best to be very

tactful and safe, but we are gonna be discussing things like the purity culture, the marriage bed, and

how there are certain people who have not been helpful in describing this.

And in the end, we wanna take a biblical approach and how is it that we shepherd each other in the church and shepherd our children in our

homes as it relates to things like sexuality.

Stay tuned.

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Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

Conversations about the Christian life from a reformed and pastoral perspective.

Your hosts today are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina, and I'm John Moffitt,

pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

But today we are not in our respective homes.

Thankfully, we've been able to -.

Or offices.

We have been able to gather -.

At one time, it was homes.

That's right.

We did used to be -.

In our homes.

But no more.

No, but no more.

God be praised.

But we are in Knoxville.

We are.

We have been able to get together for the purposes of writing and planning and recording.

Yes.

And we have found a great place in Old Town.

Recommend Old Town, Knoxville for sure.

Old Town, Knoxville, man.

Old City.

Old City, yeah.

It's cool.

So we had some opportunities to walk.

We walked all over downtown last night and this morning.

It's been good, so.

Yeah, it's been good.

If you're watching on the YouTubes, you notice that I'm doing these strange gestures.

I'm not trying to be immature or silly.

I'm just excited to be sitting across from John to record an episode.

Yeah.

It's always fun.

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We get to be in the same room,.

Which means you'll probably hear some echo and the lighting and all that.

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That's right.

Justin, important topic today, my friend.

Bring us in.

Yep.

So we live in a day in North America where, as is acknowledged all the time, I mean, many Christian

podcasts, many Christian ministers, ministries, et cetera, talk about this on the regular, the morality of our

culture is shifting at a rapid rate.

And in particular, the morality surrounding human sexuality is shifting at a

rapid rate.

And you and I agree that that's true.

And sometimes people make comments about the utterly unique situation we find

ourselves in relative to the rest of human history.

And I understand what people mean.

And it is a unique era in terms of maybe the rapidity of the shift within a

given culture that is unique.

But I think we need to be honest and be good historians as we survey the history of the world and as we

survey the record of Scripture.

Human sexuality has always been a thing.

And perversion of human sexuality, deviant sexual practice has been a thing from the beginning.

How quickly in the book of Genesis after the fall does this stuff show up?

You and I were talking about this.

I mean, we think of Sodom and Gomorrah.

We think of Lot and his daughters.

We think of Judah and Tamar.

We think of all of these things that are recorded in the relatively early chapters of

the Bible where issues of human sexuality come to the fore.

So clearly this is something that the church needs to be concerned with.

And frankly, I go ahead and lead with this, and this is not meant to be punchy in any way.

If we are prudish or just avoid the topic of human

sexuality, that's not the Scripture's fault because the Bible is replete with

descriptive accounts of these things and imperatives, God's law.

God is very clear on what's good for us when it comes to human sexuality.

We should talk about these things in the church.

That's right.

At the same time, you and I, as we survey the landscape, we notice that, as we

are often prone to do, people with the best of intentions fall off of both sides of a horse.

Right.

And it ends up being very unhelpful.

On the one hand, we have people who, maybe in thinking about purity culture and some of the

things that have existed, there's not helpful talk about sexuality from a purity standpoint.

All that's emphasized is purity.

And then in a lot of ways, the topic of sexuality is taboo.

We don't talk about it in the church because it's distracting, it's potentially harmful.

And so we just avoid it and hope it goes well for people.

Not a good approach.

But then on the other hand, you and I have tremendous concerns.

There are people who have attempted to directly address the topic, but have done it in a way that often is crass and

crude and is also incredibly harmful for the saints.

And so we wanna have a conversation today about those opposite errors a little bit, just dialogue about that

stuff.

And then we wanna talk about a better way.

Not that you and I have it all figured out, but there are things that we can confidently say from scripture, either that are chapter and

verse or that are inferred clearly from the biblical witness.

Well, this is such a tricky subject because you can handle it in

such ways that, well, let me put it this way.

The reason why it's tricky is that of people's experiences.

So even using the word sexuality or the word sex can be such a trigger for people.

That's right.

And there may be some people who have turned this podcast off already.

Right, which we're trying to be sensitive to that.

We want to encourage and strengthen everyone.

So this isn't a, we're not trying to get, we're not trying to be jock jocks and all this kind of stuff or

whatever, however you say it.

Shock jocks.

Yeah, thank you.

But I do wanna speak to how it's been mishandled.

Scripture is very clear on how we are to use our words and there to be for the sake of

edification and lifting up or for correction.

Admonishment.

Admonishment, right.

Loving rebuke.

Right.

And the Bible does have strong language.

It uses at times, but it's never a crass.

It's never inappropriate.

It doesn't lack discernment.

Right, it is very direct, breathtakingly so at points.

Absolutely.

But it is not crude and crass.

Right.

So we have observed over the years, this is not new.

We're not reacting to something that's new.

Unfortunately, it continues to be accepted or acceptable

and it's ongoing.

But I can remember the first time Mark Driscoll, who's kind of known for some of his unique language

as a pastor, when his marriage book came out, it wasn't helpful and his teaching on marriage wasn't helpful.

And the reason is, is one, it was very shocking.

And that's the effect I think he was going for.

That jarring of, you know, and to his defense, he's trying to respond to the culture that, well, we're just not gonna talk

about it.

So he's like, no, we need to make this normal.

We need to make this a normal conversation within Christianity.

But when he did it, he did it in such a way that I think he went over to the side where he actually

lowered, I think, the sanctity and beauty and I would call it the

holiness of it.

Yeah, I agree 100%.

So we're starting effectively on the side where we, in looking at attempts to address the subject

of sex and human sexuality, pastors and ministry leaders, et cetera, have

become very crude and crass in the way that they have spoken to things.

Mark Driscoll is an example.

Another one is Doug Wilson.

And we're not trying to be unnecessarily, I don't know, we're not trying to point fingers.

We're not trying to burn anybody down.

We're just trying to call it what it is because we use these two examples because they're well -known.

That's right.

Driscoll is well -known.

Wilson is well -known.

They're in different spheres, but both of them are aiming to, we're not gonna impugn their

motivations.

We trust they mean well, but they're aiming to address sexuality and they cross a line very clearly in my mind

of what's appropriate to say.

Clearly.

I mean, honestly, let alone in the pulpit, but in any situation.

Right.

Yeah, and I think where it really crosses lines, the crude and crass

talk is one part of it, but then you have these men standing in the place of God to give

God's word to his people or writing as ministers, writing as theologians.

And that's to say, thus saith the Lord.

Yes, with authority, right?

I mean, with a platform and you're writing things and you're saying things where you are

binding the consciences of human beings in the bedroom.

Yeah.

That's a problem.

And in particular, you and I are very concerned for this.

There's a binding of the consciences of women regarding what they need to be

doing with and for their husbands in a way that is flat out wrong and inappropriate.

It's degrading.

I agree with you.

The sanctity of the marriage bed has been violated by a number of these

people who are seeking to, again, I trust do well, but that they're not.

I mean, objectively speaking, it's not helpful.

Well, and it's hard to even give examples because then I feel like it would be inappropriate, right?

So I don't want people to go and look at these things, but if

you're passionate about these particular teachers and you aren't aware of this, then there is a side of me that says, well, maybe you need to do your

homework because it does trickle down into other areas that they teach about.

But specifically, even going back to Doug Wilson and his view, he has said a

lot of things about women on his blog and in videos where, and then he even defends his language

and basically says that we need to speak harshly out against and directly and plainly about sin.

Well, I've seen Paul and Peter and John and Jesus speak plainly about sin

and they never were degrading or demeaning.

I was gonna say they never demeaned.

That's right.

So I think that there's a -.

In particular, they never demeaned people in the church.

That's right.

I mean, Paul would say some things about the circumcision party that are very strong.

Right.

Right?

Because it's a heresy.

Right.

It's a compromising of the gospel for these people who are saying, you need Jesus and

circumcision in order to be righteous in the eyes of God.

He's like, I wish they would emasculate themselves.

That's right.

I mean, that's very strong language, but it's in defense of the gospel.

That kind of language is not used about the saints in the church who are seeking to be faithful.

And are wondering, okay, what has the Lord said about this?

That's right.

And then you're gonna step into that and speak in this crude and crass way and bind consciences where the Bible does

not.

No.

And abuse pastoral authority like that.

Right.

My wife and I have done a lot of counseling over the years.

So I've been doing marriage counseling and pre -marriage counseling for almost 15, 17 years,

when I started first doing, so I was a college pastor for almost 10 years.

So I can't even tell you how many weddings I've done.

But in these conversations I'm having with people and I'm talking with them, it

is interesting to see how much their perspective is clouded either by culture.

So there's no sanctity to sexuality.

It's kind of like, well, that the Bible's archaic or there's the exact opposite to where,

I don't know how to say this other than to say, it's like really there is a procreation is kind of the only

design for it.

And for the glory of God and the enjoyment of the couple is not a part of it.

So you have these extremes that are both wrong.

And I think one, you have this, you have people who've reacted to the purity culture.

So they're over here saying, well, I don't believe in any of that.

And so I'm just gonna sexually live however I want.

And then you have it over here to where it's all about the submissive of the woman to the man.

And it's all, I don't know how to say this than when you say

binding the conscience, it's so degrading.

It is.

So I'll go ahead and say this, when it comes to, and people may not like this, that's fine.

When it comes to Doug Wilson, I think the things that he says are degrading toward women.

They are dishonoring toward women and they are appropriately defined as misogynistic.

That is true.

That word is thrown around a lot.

Not only him, but those who also write underneath the canon of press.

That word misogynistic and toxic masculinity, those things are thrown around a lot.

Doug Wilson is legitimately that.

That's true.

And the things that are written, as you said, by other authors under that label, that publishing house

would be the same.

When it comes to Driscoll, he is talking about things that people

should be doing and ways they should be expressing themselves sexually within the covenant of

marriage and the like in his binding consciences in that way.

I think people are attracted to Wilson for one reason.

He's conservative.

He's conservative.

In their view.

He is against the cultural shift that is wigging out American evangelicals.

He is, whether he would acknowledge this or not, I mean, there's a lot of theonomic,.

Reconstructionist type stuff.

I understand why conservative people are attracted.

Because he's pushing back against this egalitarian movement.

So the conservative, exactly.

Conservatives and people who are really worried about the cultural situation and are worried about some squishiness in the

church on issues of gender and sexuality, et cetera, would be attracted to Wilson.

Lowering the role of a man.

Then, with respect to Driscoll, though, I think his entire ministry, we commented on some of this in a podcast we

did a while back where we interacted a little bit with the rise and fall of Morris Hill.

Mark Driscoll showed up on the scene on the tales of the megachurch movement

and the very seeker -sensitive, attractional ministry models where so much of what was going

on in the American church was fluffy, didn't have a lot of substance.

It was sentimental.

It was all these things.

And then you get this dude who's a good communicator, strong leadership persona, and he's saying the quiet part out loud.

He's addressing things that nobody's been talking to.

And you have a lot of young believers who were very disenchanted with their church experience.

They were disenchanted with the church as an institution, with Christianity as a religion.

They thought Jesus was legitimate.

But they are like, man, why is nobody talking about A, B, or C?

And then here comes a guy who's gonna talk about it all.

Well, he busts open the white label.

Perfect, we're not gonna talk about problems church.

And he's like, no, the world has problems.

Let's talk about it.

And that attracted people.

Exactly.

So that's what attracted people to Driscoll's ministry in part is this guy is saying the hard things

and he's saying things about stuff that nobody else will touch.

And a lot of this is true.

And so it garners a platform, gains a hearing.

And he continued to push the envelope, obviously.

And I think like you even acknowledged earlier, sort of culminating with, he said a lot of things in preaching that were very concerning.

And then it culminates in a book that he and his wife co -wrote on marriage that -.

Well, I even remember the whole like masculinity, like recovering masculinity, which I understand what they mean

by.

That is, men need to be men and act like men, but it became more about

like the dominance of a man and how the power of a man.

And it becomes this like bro culture thing.

Oh, it was totally.

You know, it was all about like, if you don't eat bacon and shoot things,.

Then you're not really a man.

And do CrossFit, whatever.

Right.

And then, and I appreciate what they're trying to say is like, oh, the culture is, you know,

removing masculinity altogether.

And this is not that podcast, but it's related.

No, it's not.

And, but I understand like what they're trying to recover.

I too feel, you and I both are trying to teach men how to be godly and how to love their wives and how to

be leaders in their home.

We want that.

Because men are not women and women are not men.

That's right.

And God did not design us to be the same.

That's right.

Yeah.

Right.

And when two people who love Christ, who are blessed and gifted, not only

spiritually, but physically in different ways, come together, they become one.

And I love how Paul says in Ephesians says, it's a mystery, right?

It's a mystery.

And we want that.

So we want men to love their wives with gentleness and meekness and kindness and help their wives to feel protected and

loved in all areas of their life this includes the bedroom.

So we want the same thing, but I feel like what we did was we went

to the other extreme.

This is a great example of identifying a problem like this easy believism and then

bringing in a really harsh response.

It's not a biblical one.

No, the assessment where, yes, this is wrong.

But the conclusion was it worked.

And so we just turned the volume up on it and until you sit back and say, like Justin, you and I both have seen on both sides of

this, those who are in the Wilson's ministry and those who are in Driscoll's, it has caused

extreme amount of damage to the other side.

So now you're not, you're just causing more damage.

You're not actually bringing people under the hope of the gospel in those ways.

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To maybe put a bow on it and put it in my own words, because I think what you just said was helpful.

As people on this side of the spectrum are like, we need to address this.

That's right.

They survey the landscape and they see that what's going on in the church with respect to sexuality, gender, et cetera, is bad.

We agree.

But the response was wrong, is wrong.

And your example of easy -believism, which is the bad fruit of revivalism

and seeker -sensitive, decisionalism, all this kind of stuff, right?

It's the bad fruit of all that, where people just kind of walk aisles and pray prayers and there's all kinds of false

professions and whatnot.

The solution in the minds of many is to just bludgeon people with the law, to introduce a new

law to which we would say, well, there's a better way to respond to that that's biblical, think Paul in Romans

6.

He responds with clarity on the gospel and union with Christ, not law.

We're sort of saying something similar here, that we agree with the assessment that things were not well,

are not well, and something needs to be said, but the ways in which some have gone about it have been

less than helpful and less than good.

Let's pivot now, though, to talk about the opposite error.

If you're cool, you got one.

I do, and as an intro into that real quick, I know that at this point, we're 15, 18, 20 minutes in, something like that,

and I know there are people who have been greatly impacted by both of these men's

ministries.

And so, right, and what you're probably hearing is that, oh, you guys are misunderstanding them, you don't understand them.

And specifically, we don't get this with Driscoll as much as we do with Doug Wilson.

You guys aren't really listening, you're misrepresenting them.

And I say this with humility and compassion.

Justin and I have done our homework.

I have read and reread and reread many things to make sure that I am not

misreading this.

And it wasn't like a one -time quote or one instance or one area.

This teaching is very clear.

His view of marriage and sexuality, specifically Wilson, he has made his position clear.

And so our criticisms of this is not a one -off conversation that was maybe slightly

recorded from a clip of a sermon.

Just so that people hear us is that I'm not trying to just bash because we're gonna get views on this.

This is not what we're trying to do.

Well, and we're not gonna put, we're not trying to, we didn't put names in the title.

We're not trying to just get clicks.

Yeah, so to help you understand what we're

contrasting it with, which is, well, I'll hand it back over to you, is that we wanna show you what I think the Bible does want us

to do and the results of that.

Well, we're gonna get there.

Sorry, sorry.

Initially, initially I want us to talk, so we've talked about the crude, crass binding of consciences where we

shouldn't, et cetera.

We're now gonna pivot to talk about the errors of what we would call purity culture.

Yeah, that's right.

And what I might even call like sex is taboo kind of approach, which is what many people

in our generation grew up in.

If you were in a conservative -ish church, I mean, I was in a liberal church theologically, but was still

morally very conservative, be a good person kind of stuff.

And this is how sexuality just was not talked about.

It might occasionally come up in some awkward youth group conversation.

But even then, I mean, nothing really good was said.

So this is a mistake that was made where the only things that are said generally

to young people especially, and in one sense to all people, is that it's

implied that sex is dangerous, sex is perhaps dirty, it's

risque, it's something to be avoided, especially for young people.

Outside of marriage, of course, that's true, but that's all that's ever discussed is you need to stay away from this.

You just need to not go near it or you're gonna get burned, and there's nothing good to see here.

And we're gonna talk about the fallout of some of that, or there is a hyper -obsession with

sexual purity where it in the minds of many people became the warp and the woof of what it

is to be a young person who's a believer.

Well, yeah, the whole purity ring, which listen, I'm not against that stuff, but let me reword it this way, Justin.

The way it is presented is that the supreme ultimate goal of life is to be pure at

marriage, and I'm like, no.

Yes, that's a good thing, but there's such an arrogance and pride to that.

It's like we're not teaching people just, the goal is not to just be pure, because then it's like

there's a negative side of it because you're still, it's more of this is really, you've destroyed yourself and

this is a really bad thing and this has happened, and if we're gonna teach the

whole counsel of God, and we're gonna be faithful to do that, then sexuality, there's

a positive side to it.

Absolutely, and we're gonna get there.

I think really quickly before we get into it.

Oh, I'm not getting in there.

Because we're itching to get to the good piece.

We will.

A comment here on the damage of this.

I mean, there are umpteen books.

Again, I'm not just trying to throw names out there for the sake of throwing names out there, but this is a symptom of a larger systemic

problem in evangelicalism.

I mean, Joshua Harris, for example, was thrust to prominence at a very young age because he wrote a

book about dating and purity.

Yeah.

Right?

That's a problem in evangelicalism, that you platform a person who's, he's not an ordained minister, he's very young, and

he's writing a book about dating.

And we now become a phenomenon.

Right.

Weird.

So.

But he did something, again, he saw a problem.

Sure.

He offered a solution.

Sure.

And it made sense.

And a lot of what he said was good, but then there's a lot of it that's just like, oh, that's way overreacting.

Sure.

And there's a codification of things.

Yeah.

And again, a binding of the conscience where I don't think the scripture does.

Right.

And that's never a good idea.

No.

For us.

So, in the midst of all of that, the purity culture stuff, and even the kind of sexist taboo approach where we just

don't discuss it.

And we sort of naively, or maybe blindly, just kind of close our eyes, and just don't look at it,

don't think about it, and we just hope it's gonna turn out okay for people.

Yeah.

And I think you and I, pastorally, have seen time and time and time again that that approach

has borne some really bad fruit for very sweet, sincere, well -meaning people

who then enter into marriage and crash up against the realities of,

I don't know any other way to say it, than sex inside of marriage.

And it's like, we're not quite sure what to do with this.

And things aren't going well, or there's discomfort, and there's this, there's that, and we don't

know who to go to.

There's a lot of shame.

There's a lot of guilt, there's a lot of shame.

Yeah, again, that whole sex is bad, stay away from it, it's dirty, it will ruin you.

And then, immediately, which is the way I've framed it before, that's what we bombard people with.

And then, all of the sudden, upon saying I do, we need to be able to pivot on a dime

and now be prepared to completely and freely give of ourselves, our

bodies, for the good and the enjoyment of another.

I need to be prepared to do that when all I've ever been told is that it's bad, and that I need to avoid it, and we

shouldn't talk about it, because if we talk about it, we're just going to cause people to run down the road of temptation, you

know?

It's not good.

You ever seen the movie The Village?

Yes.

It's like, they use this, this is it.

They're trying to keep themselves, if you've never, if you haven't seen it at this point,.

I apologize, but.

Because you've talked about it a few times.

Spoiler alert, I mean, the movie's like 15, 20 years old.

It is, it's very old.

But the point of it is that they're using fear tactics.

So for that person who's like, man, I was going to go see it tonight, get out of here with that, come on.

Exactly.

But the movie proves that you can't control people that way, through that type of fear

tactics that's there.

And I can remember one of the first times I was doing

some premarital counseling, and we had to have this conversation post their marriage coming back, just about

the psychological decompression that had to happen, because there was just so much pain and

anxiety that was going on in their brains, and it really, it shook me.

My wife and I would have a lot of conversations on like, how do we care for these people and shepherd them?

And look, I grew up in that same culture.

I remember reading the I Kissed Dating book, Dubai.

I remember the only thing, what I remember from my youth was, Christianity is about what I didn't do.

Of course, it's about abstaining from evil.

That's right.

And there was no like potential, the potential of what joy and

goodness could bring.

It was all prohibition.

Right, and what's interesting, like my personality, like if you tell me don't do something, unless I know for sure it's sinful, I'm

like, why?

Right, well, that's how most people are.

So I also shepherded people who probably would not have enslaved themselves into

sin sexually, if someone would have sat down and taught them the joy of it.

And we're getting there.

So it has both sides, where you think purity culture actually is protecting people.

They just lie to you.

They just pretend.

Like so many other things, man, like legalism, moralism, the binding of the conscience where the Bible doesn't, neo -nomism, like

a new law, all that.

What does that do?

It breeds hypocrisy.

Because what it tells people, because people aren't stupid, and of course, we're master manipulators, all of us, but all it

does is reinforce everybody's instincts to just not be honest and to hide.

Well, and the world's over here advertising it, right?

The world's advertising the greatness of what this could be in your life.

And they're advertising the greatness as it pertains to the flesh.

Right.

And gratify your desires.

Christianity's response to that is just to throw a big X on it.

And I'm like, that can't be our response because -.

Or just throw a blanket over it.

It's like, oh, that doesn't exist.

We don't talk about it.

So yeah, not helpful.

I'm gonna move us into kind of the third piece of our conversation where we're gonna talk about a better way.

Now, I'm gonna front load this very briefly by saying that we should exercise great levels of

discernment in terms of how we talk about this and then even when.

There are better and worse times to address this subject matter.

And a lot of what we're talking about right now is not gonna be something we would communicate from the pulpit.

It's not even necessarily something we're gonna communicate in public teaching, per se, but this is the kind of stuff that we need to be able to talk about

with our children and that we need to be able to talk about as believers, as saints in the church who are trying to help one another

live.

As we say true things to one another, as we exhort and encourage, as we admonish and rebuke and correct,

this is the kind of stuff that we need to be able to talk about or we don't have a chance because the flesh is

frail and the cravings of the flesh are powerful.

And I shouldn't say the flesh is frail.

We are frail in terms of just how we can be at times.

We're so easily derailed and the desires of the flesh and the cravings of the flesh are very strong at points.

And so we need to be able to help people see, as you've alluded to multiple times, how God gave

us sexuality, made us male and female on purpose, and he gave us this gift.

That's what it is.

And like so many other good gifts he gives, it absolutely can be abused, corrupted, perverted, and it has

been.

And it's incredibly damaging when good gifts are abused.

God is dishonored and we are harmed legitimately.

So we need to be very careful.

We need to be very thoughtful, but we need to help people see the good and the beauty in it.

And if we talk more honestly and openly about it, I agree with you.

Rather than creating this stigma, that word's used too much, but I think this is fair.

Rather than creating the stigma around it and rather than creating this like, oh, well, what is that?

Because we never talk about it and all that.

Or rather than talking about it in worldly terms, which I honestly think Wilson and others in Driscoll, I think it's

very worldly.

I think it's very carnal.

It's very primal.

You know, it doesn't sound godly.

It doesn't sound like light.

When Paul describes people in the church and marriages, you don't hear

this kind of language.

You do not at all.

All right, so let's talk about a better way.

Yeah, I agree.

One of the things that I love is that the gospel doesn't stop when the doors of the bedroom

close.

That's right.

That's right.

We are liberated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

We are given not only a new heart and a new name, but we're also given a new ethic and a way in which we treat

each other.

Like, I love how Paul says the love of Christ controls us so that he considers others.

When I listen to people talk about intimacy, it's like your job is to make me

feel good.

That's your, and even when this whole view of between the man and woman, it's like the woman's job is to keep me happy.

Or the goal of sexual expression is my own personal fulfillment.

That's right.

Which is very self -centered.

You know, people are like, oh, so we're not supposed to enjoy it?

You're missing it.

You're missing it.

Actually, what scripture tells us is that the greatest joy and hope we have in life is when we are

more concerned about caring for the needs of someone else, not just in the bedroom, but in all of life.

But it applies here.

It does.

So when we approach sexual intimacy within the covenant relationship of marriage, man,

how different would it be if we all approached that with this perspective that is clearly taught throughout scripture

and it's broad in terms of its application, that we are to be outwardly oriented in

love toward God and love toward neighbor, that to love one's neighbor as yourself is to fulfill the law, right?

This is how God tells us we are to be.

The love of Christ constrains us.

Like the exercise, even this interjection, but it's applicable, the exercise of our

Christian freedom, what governs it, it's not a code, it's love.

That's what the apostles say.

Our love for one another is what governs our exercise of Christian liberty in a general sense, and

Christian freedom in a general sense.

Well, how much more so, if I can say it that way, in the covenant relationship of marriage, this person to whom

I have pledged my fidelity, my love, my affection, to whom I have

given my body, should I not approach this relationship and sexual intimacy with

that person with the perspective of my aim here is to give of myself

in my situation for her good.

That's right, or for his good.

Or for his good, if you're a woman.

That's how we ought to think.

And Paul says this, your body isn't your own.

That's right.

It actually belongs to your spouse, and so think in those terms.

Right, well, and there's a lot of freedom when that happens to where, you know, sometimes you read

books, and I just, I can't go back to the whole Wilson.

No, we don't need to.

But when you read those things, you're thinking to yourself, I don't think Scripture's

giving us these obligatory things that are supposed to be happening.

It's like, listen, the marriage bed is sacred.

It is between those two individuals, and it's for their enjoyment and God's glory.

And to even say that, may God be glorified in the way in which we treat each other sexually, it's, people are

like, oh, that's kind of weird.

You know?

But God made, bro, he made us.

What does Paul say in Ephesians, right?

Like the intimacy between a man and a woman is a mystery.

It's like the same intimacy that we have, the church between Christ is a mystery.

That means it's for God's glory.

So yeah, marriage itself and even the union in this way of a man and a

woman is the way that it is because Christ was coming to save his bride.

That's important.

And so, for example, the Song of Solomon.

Nobody wants to touch it.

I'll go and say now, I think this whole either or approach to that book is stupid.

Is it Christ and the church, or is it man and wife?

Yes, it's both.

It's so clear.

But like we were talking about earlier.

And it's immediate context.

We do believe that that's a beautiful picture.

And it's greater context.

Yeah.

Right.

It's a man and his bride, and we should talk about it in those terms.

And then we should talk about what a man and his bride is ultimately about and what it points to, which is Christ and his bride, the

church.

And we talk in those terms, and it's helpful.

You and I were talking before we hit record about how we want to talk.

Like you are already talking with your children because your children are older than mine.

How I will be talking with my kids in the near term as my children will be approaching

pre -adolescence and all this.

We want to be able to talk with our kids about these things in these ways.

Not just the whole like don't do, abstain, abstain, abstain, it's bad.

And yeah, you're going to be curious.

Yeah, you're going to want to do all this stuff, but just don't, you know, just stay away.

Rather than saying, yeah, you are going to be thinking these things and feeling these things.

You're going to want to express yourself in these ways with a person.

That's right.

You know, if I'm talking to my sons, you're going to want to express yourself in these ways with a woman.

Or my daughters, you're going to want to express yourself in these ways with a man.

And that's a God -given, normal thing.

And it's actually really good when we use it the way God says we should.

And it honors God, it's for our pleasure, it is for procreation, it's for all of these

things.

And let's talk about it like this, like we would talk about other good things that the Lord has

given to us.

Like we caution our kids.

I mean, I'm not trying to, we're just pulling out all the stops here.

But like in my home, my wife and I, we consume alcohol and we do

not hide it from our children.

We tell them what it's called.

We talk openly about it with them.

And we let them know that it's not appropriate for them now.

It's a good thing that the Lord's given us that we enjoy.

And in due time, we'll teach them more about it and how they can responsibly enjoy it.

That's right.

So that in their minds, they'll never grow up with a stigma around, oh, you know, that's like dad's juice or

something.

You know, that he doesn't wanna talk to me about.

This is not the same, but it's similar in that let's talk openly, it's good.

Here's how God has intended us to use it.

So talk to me about the things you're feeling.

Talk to me about the things that you're wanting to do.

I'm gonna talk to you about some things that you need to be aware of and some pitfalls that you could find yourself slipping into that I don't want for you

because I love you.

And here's the good that God has for you.

And let's hold, if we're gonna hold out, let's hold out for that.

That's right.

Yeah, I wish I had these conversations when I was younger.

I recently.

In more depth.

Yeah, I recently.

My parents were very faithful in this way and meant to do good.

And you know, at the same time, I think we all, because of the culture we grew up in, wish that we could have talked more openly.

About some of this.

So I had a conversation recently with my own son.

And what's interesting is I'm gonna challenge every parent in here.

This is not a one and done.

You know, they don't need to know the anatomy and then you work on.

So what you have to do is it's a constant, let me put it this way.

You are way outgunned and way outdone with advertising from the world.

The world is pressing in on them and reprogramming their brain every second of every day

through music, advertisement, friends.

So I'm constant in conversation with my son and it's, and my wife with our daughters and me with even with

our daughters, where I'm always talking about the positives and the upsides and

the joy of what's going on.

Like recently, I was talking to my son.

I said, you know, you're gonna be really having, you're gonna start having strong affections.

You're gonna be like, wow, I really, like I think I really appreciate this person.

And I just wanna be near her.

Right, and you're gonna have physical attraction.

You're gonna, just like your dad, I think your mom is gorgeous.

I like to be around her.

And I said, Titus, I like to show myself, like a physical affection towards your mom because

one, I want her to know that I really care about her.

I said, you're gonna want that.

And that's good.

What I want you to learn how to do is to prepare your heart and your mind to not only do it in a way where you

know God's being glorified, because you're gonna enjoy it the right way.

Let me put it this way.

You're actually going to enjoy it versus you fulfilling a temporary satisfaction.

That leads to guilt and shame.

And the shame, the guilt is real, but the shame piece is so significant.

And if this is not the point, and maybe we could talk about this a little bit in SR.

People will say that when we'll make the statement that no sin is

private, people will push back and say, well, what if it's just me by myself?

Yeah, my thoughts, yeah.

And my thoughts, and I'm just kind of toying with the cravings I have.

And if it's just me, it's not hurting anybody else.

You're a fool if you think that.

You are a fool.

Because of this guilt and shame reality and the ways that you are, let's use

some biblical language.

I mean, you are feeding that monster of your flesh.

That's significant.

You mean to tell me you're not going to treat them differently?

Exactly, that's significant.

But then you will, in particular, if you're a believer, even if you're not, because you were made in God's

image and His law is written on your heart, your conscience will be wrecked.

You will be riddled with guilt and you will be riddled with shame when it comes to this

aspect of your life.

So do not for one second think that you can toy with your cravings and your passions by yourself

and it will not affect other people.

It will.

It will.

It will.

Yeah, I will speak into this as well.

I think this is why we do have an epidemic in the church when it comes to

people struggling with what they watch.

It's like, Justin, you and I both have to counsel men and women, and I would say women too, men and women.

That's right, it's not a male -only issue.

No, and when sexuality becomes purely appetite

fulfillment, where we are just satisfying the desires of our flesh,

well, that makes it super easy to do that.

And while my spouse isn't doing it for me, like there's a whole reprogramming of life.

Reprogramming of life, because now it becomes transactional.

It's about my gratification.

And then I end up resenting my spouse because my spouse is not meeting my expectations.

That's right.

It's just, yeah, it's a death spiral.

Right, so I think we should definitely talk more about this in SR, and we've got a lot of things that we can still cover.

But for those of you who keep saying SR, stands for Semper Firmanda.

It's a different podcast, a second podcast, Justin and I do, for those who support us monthly and

we just provide some additional content, additional thoughts.

I do have some more thoughts about this problem with pornography in the church, and we'll speak to that in our Semper Firmanda.

If you'd like to learn more about that and join our community, you can go to theocast .org.

We have an app that Justin and I are on.

We're gonna actually do a live post shot here just to talk a little bit about some stuff.

So it's just fun.

It's a fun community that we hang out with.

As Justin always says, it's like Facebook, but better.

And we do have a Facebook group.

If you wanna go join that, if you haven't downloaded it yet, go listen to Everyday Grace as an encouragement.

My one request is that you be gracious with each other as we work through these things.

I know there's a lot of opinions.

I know there's a lot of heated debates.

Let's speak the truth in love, being gentle and kind.

Well, and especially when it comes to secondary matters, we should be very charitable.

That's right.

All right, we'll see you guys next week.