The Dangers of Doug Wilson & Mark Driscoll’s Ministry | Theocast

Hi, this is John, and today with me in Knoxville, Tennessee, is Justin. We're together and recording an episode on a very sensitive topic, and so we're going to do our best.

I'm going to go ahead and say this up front for those of you that have children that might be listening. We try our best to be very tactful and safe, but we are going to be discussing things like the purity culture, the marriage bed, and how there are certain people who have not been helpful in describing this.

And in the end, we want to take a biblical approach, and how is it that we shepherd each other in the church and shepherd our children in our homes as it relates to things like sexuality?

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To learn how to sign up, just go to theocast .org slash give. Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ, conversations about the

Christian life from a Reformed and pastoral perspective. Your hosts today are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina, and I'm John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Springhill, Tennessee.

But today we are not in our respective homes, or offices.

We have been able to gather. At one time, it was homes. That's right. We did used to be in our homes. But no more. No, but no more.

God be praised. But we are in Knoxville, and we have been able to get together for the purposes of writing and planning and recording.

Yes. And we have found a great place in Old Town. Recommend Old Town, Knoxville. Old Town, Knoxville, man.

Old City. Old City. Yeah, so we had had some opportunities to walk.

We walked all over downtown last night and this morning. It's been good. Yeah, it's been good. But if you're watching on the

YouTubes, you notice that I'm doing these strange gestures. I'm not trying to be immature or silly. I'm just excited to be sitting across from John to record an episode.

Yeah, it's always fun. So it's good. So we're excited. We get to be in the same room, which means you'll probably hear some echo and the lighting and all that.

But all of it may not be so optimal because we're not in a studio setup. That's right. Anyways, Justin, that's not why they're listening, but we do want to say thank you.

Stay tuned. We've got some new content coming out. But oh, and one last announcement, if you've not downloaded or subscribed to our newest podcast, which is

Everyday Grace, we encourage you to do that. You can go to anywhere you listen to a podcast or you can go watch it on YouTube. And these are clips that we put out every day,

Monday through Friday, from my sermons, Justin's sermons, or the podcast. And they're about three minutes. And the purpose of it is just to give you some encouragement, reminders of God's amazing grace.

Yeah, and Christ's sufficiency for you. That's right. Justin, important topic today, my friend. Bring us in. Yep. So we live in a day in North America where, as is acknowledged all the time,

I mean, many Christian podcasts, many Christian ministers, ministries, etc. talk about this on the regular. The morality of our culture is shifting at a rapid rate.

And in particular, the morality surrounding human sexuality is shifting at a rapid rate.

And you and I agree that that's true. Yeah. And sometimes people make comments about the utterly unique situation we find ourselves in relative to the rest of human history.

And I understand what people mean. And it is a unique era in terms of maybe the rapidity of the shift within a given culture that is unique.

But I think we need to be honest and be good historians as we survey the history of the world and as we survey the record of Scripture.

Human sexuality has always been a thing. And perversion of human sexuality, deviant sexual practice, has been a thing from the beginning.

How quickly in the book of Genesis after the fall does this stuff show up? You and I were talking about this.

I mean, we think of Sodom and Gomorrah. We think of Lot and his daughters. We think of Judah and Tamar. We think of all of these things that are recorded in the relatively early chapters of the

Bible where issues of human sexuality come to the fore. So clearly this is something that the church needs to be concerned with.

And frankly, I go and lead with this, and this is not meant to be punchy in any way. If we are prudish or just avoid the topic of human sexuality, that's not the

Scripture's fault because the Bible is replete with descriptive accounts of these things and imperatives,

God's law. God is very clear on what's good for us when it comes to human sexuality. We should talk about these things in the church.

At the same time, you and I, as we survey the landscape, we notice that, as we are often prone to do, people with the best of intentions fall off of both sides of a horse, and it ends up being very unhelpful.

On the one hand, we have people who, maybe in thinking about purity culture and some of the things that have existed, there's not helpful talk about sexuality from a purity standpoint.

All that's emphasized is purity. And then in a lot of ways, the topic of sexuality is taboo.

We don't talk about it in the church because it's distracting, it's potentially harmful, and so we just avoid it and hope it goes well for people.

Not a good approach. But then on the other hand, you and I have tremendous concerns. There are people who have attempted to directly address the topic, but have done it in a way that often is crass and crude, and is also incredibly harmful for the saints.

And so we want to have a conversation today about those opposite errors a little bit, just dialogue about that stuff, and then we want to talk about a better way.

Not that you and I have it all figured out, but there are things that we can confidently say from Scripture, either that are chapter and verse or that are inferred clearly from the biblical witness.

Yeah. Well, this is such a tricky subject because you can handle it in such ways that, well, let me put it this way.

The reason why it's tricky is that of people's experiences, right? So even using the word sexuality or the word sex can be such a trigger for people.

That's right. And there may be some people who have turned this podcast off already. Right. Which, you know, we're trying to be sensitive that we want to encourage and strengthen everyone.

So this isn't a, you know, we're not trying to be jock jocks and all this kind of stuff or whatever, however you say it.

Shock jocks. Yeah. Thank you. But I do want to speak to how it's been mishandled.

Scripture is very clear on how we are to use our words and they're to be for the sake of edification and lifting up or for correction.

Admonishment. Admonishment. Loving rebuke. Right. And the Bible does have a strong language.

It uses at times, but it's never a crass. It's never inappropriate. It doesn't lack discernment.

It is very direct, breathtakingly so at points, but it is not crude and crass.

Right. So we have observed over the years, this is not new. We're not reacting to something that's new.

Unfortunately, it continues to be accepted or acceptable and it's ongoing.

But I can remember the first time Mark Driscoll, who's kind of known for some of his unique language as a pastor, when his marriage book came out, it wasn't helpful and his teaching on marriage wasn't helpful.

And the reason is, is one, it was very shocking and that's the effect

I think he was going for, that jarring of, you know, and to his defense, he's trying to respond to the culture that, well, we're just not going to talk about it.

So he's like, no, we need to make this normal. We need to make this a normal conversation within Christianity. But when he did it, he did it in such a way that I think he went over to the side where he actually lowered,

I think, the sanctity and beauty and I would call it the holiness of it.

Right. I agree a hundred percent. So we're starting effectively on the side where we, in looking at attempts to address the subject of sex and human sexuality, pastors and ministry leaders, et cetera, have become very crude and crass in the way that they have spoken to things.

Mark Driscoll is an example. Another one is Doug Wilson. Right. And we're not trying to be unnecessarily,

I don't know, we're not trying to point fingers. We're not trying to burn anybody down. We're just trying to call it what it is because we use these two examples because they're well known.

That's right. Driscoll is well known. Wilson is well known. They're in different spheres, but both of them are aiming to, we're not going to impugn their motivations.

We trust they mean well, but they're aiming to address sexuality and they cross a line very clearly in my mind of what's appropriate to say.

I mean, honestly, let alone in the pulpit, but in any situation. Right. I mean, yeah.

And I think where it really crosses lines, the crude and crass talk is one part of it.

But then you have these men standing in the place of God to give God's word to people or writing as ministers, writing as theologians.

And that's to say, thus saith the Lord. Yes. Yeah. With authority, right? I mean, with a platform and you're writing things and you're saying things where you are binding the consciences of human beings in the bedroom.

Yeah. That's a problem. And in particular, you and I are very concerned for this.

There's a binding of the consciences of women regarding what they need to be doing with and for their husbands in a way that is flat out wrong and inappropriate.

It's degrading. I agree with you. The sanctity of the marriage bed has been violated by a number of these people who are seeking to, again,

I trust do well, but that they're not, I mean, objectively speaking, it's not helpful. Well, and it's hard to even give examples because then

I feel like it would be inappropriate. So, you know, I don't,

I don't want, I don't want people to go and look these things, but if you're, if you're, if you're passionate about these particular teachers and you aren't aware of this, then there is a side of me that says, well, maybe you need to do your homework because it does trickle down into other areas that they teach about.

But specifically even going down to, you know, back to Doug Wilson and his view, he has said a lot of things about women on his blog and in, in videos where, and then he even defends his language and basically says that we need to speak harshly out against and directly and plainly about sin.

Well, I've seen Paul and Peter and John and Jesus speak plainly about sin and they never were degrading or demeaning.

And they never, I was going to say they never demean. That's right. Yeah. So I think that there's a, there's a.

In particular, they never demean people in the church. That's right. I mean, Paul would say some things about the circumcision party that are very strong.

Right. Right. Because it's a heresy. Right. It's, it's a compromising of the gospel for these people who are saying you need

Jesus and circumcision in order to be righteous in the eyes of God. He's like, you know, I wish they would emasculate themselves.

That's right. I mean, that's very strong language, but it's in defense of the gospel. That kind of language is not used about the saints in the church who are seeking to be faithful and are wondering, okay, what has the

Lord said about this? That's right. And then you're going to step into that and speak in this crude and crass way and bind consciences where the

Bible does not. And abuse pastoral authority. Right. I, you know, I, my wife and I have done a lot of counseling over the years.

So I've been, I've been doing marriage counseling and pre -marriage counseling for almost 15, 17 years, something like that.

I mean, is when I started first doing, so I was a college pastor for almost 10 years, so I can't even tell you how many weddings

I've done. But in these conversations I'm having with people and I'm talking with them, it is interesting to see how much their perspective is clouded either by culture.

So there's no sanctity to sexuality. It's kind of like, well, that the Bible's archaic or there's the exact opposite to where I don't,

I don't know how to say this other than to say, it's like really there is a procreation is kind of the only design for it and for, for the glory of God and the enjoyment of the couple is not a part of it.

So you have these extremes that are both wrong. And I think one, you know, you have this, you have people who've reacted to the purity culture.

And so they're over here saying, well, I don't believe in any of that. And so I'm just going to sexually live however I want. And then you have it over here to where it's, it's all about the submissive of the woman to the man.

And it's all, it's, it's, it's, it's, I don't know how to say this.

Then when you say binding the conscience, it's so degrading. So I'll go and say this when it comes to, and people may not like this, that's fine.

When it comes to Doug Wilson, I think the things that he says are degrading toward women. They are dishonoring toward women and they are appropriately defined as misogynistic.

That is true. Okay. That word is thrown around a lot. Not only, not only him, but those who also write underneath can impress.

That word misogynistic and toxic masculinity, those things are thrown around a lot. Yeah. Doug Wilson is legitimately that.

That's true. And the things that are written, as you said, some by other authors under that, under that label, that publishing house would be the same when it comes to Driscoll.

He is, he's talking about things that people should be doing and ways they should be expressing themselves sexually, you know, within the covenant of marriage and the like, in his binding consciences in that way.

I think people are attracted to Wilson for one reason. He's conservative. He's conservative.

He is against, he is against the cultural shift that is wigging out

American evangelicals. Right. He is, whether he would acknowledge this or not,

I mean, there's a lot of theonomic reconstructionist type stuff. I understand why conservative people are attracted because he's pushing back against this egalitarian movement.

So the conservative, exactly. Conservatives and people who are really worried about the cultural situation and are worried about some squishiness in the church on issues of gender and sexuality, et cetera, would be attracted to Wilson.

Or in the role of a man. Yeah. Then with respect to Driscoll though, I think his entire ministry, we commented on some of this in a podcast we did a while back where we interacted a little bit with The Rise and Fall of Morris Hill.

Mark Driscoll showed up on the scene on the tales of the megachurch movement and the very seeker sensitive, attractional ministry models where so much of what was going on in the

American church was fluffy, didn't have a lot of substance. It was sentimental. It was all these things.

And then you get this dude who's a good communicator, strong leadership persona, and he's saying the quiet part out loud.

Like he's addressing things that nobody's been talking to and you have a lot of young believers who were very disenchanted with their church experience.

They were disenchanted with the church as an institution, with Christianity as a religion. They thought Jesus was legitimate, but they are like, man, why is nobody talking about A, B, or C?

And then here comes a guy who's going to talk about it all. Well, he busts open kind of the white labeled perfect, you know, we're not going to talk about problems, church.

And he's like, no, the world has problems. Let's talk about it. Right. And that attracted people. Exactly. So that's what attracted people to Driscoll's ministry in part is this guy is saying the hard things and he's saying things about stuff that nobody else will touch.

And like, this is a lot of this is true. And so it garners a platform, gains a hearing, and he continued to push the envelope, obviously.

And I think like you even acknowledged earlier, sort of culminating with, he said a lot of things in preaching that were very concerning, and then it culminates in a book that he and his wife co -wrote on marriage that is not the whole like masculinity, like recovering masculinity, which

I understand what they mean by that is, you know, men need to be men and act like men, but it became more about like the dominance of a man and how the power of a man and it kind of, it comes this like bro culture thing.

Oh, it was totally, you know, you know, it was all about like, if you don't, if you don't eat bacon and shoot things, then you're not really a man.

And, you know, do CrossFit, whatever. And then, and I appreciate what they're trying to say is like, oh, the culture is, you know, you know, removing masculinity altogether.

And, and this is not that podcast, but it's no, it's not, but I understand like what they're trying to recover.

I too feel you, you, you and I both are trying to teach men how to be godly and how to love their wives and how to be leaders in their home.

We want that. Cause men are not women and women are not men. That's right. And God did not design us to be the same.

That's right. Right. And when, when, uh, two people who love Christ, who are blessed and gifted, not only spiritually, but physically in different ways come together, they become one and I love how

Paul says in Ephesians says it's a, it's a mystery, right? It's a mystery. And we want that. So we want men to love their wives with gentleness and meekness and kindness and help their wives to feel protected and loved in all areas of their life.

Right. This includes the bedroom. Uh, so we want the same thing, but I feel like what we did was we went to the other extreme.

This is a great example of identifying a problem like, uh, this easy believism and then bringing in a really harsh response, right?

It's not a biblical one. No. The assessment where, yes, this is wrong, but the, the conclusion was it worked.

And so we just turned the volume up on it. And until you sit back and see like Justin, you and I both have seen on both sides of this, those who are in the

Wilson's ministry and those who are in, on Driscoll's, it has caused extreme amount of damage to the other side.

So now you're not, you're just causing more damage. You're not actually bringing people in under the hope of the gospel in those ways.

If you're new to TheoCast, we have a free ebook available for you called faith versus faithfulness, a primer on rest.

And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a reformed confessional perspective.

You can get your free copy at theocast .org slash primer. To maybe put a bow on it and put it in my own words, because I think what you just said was helpful as people on this side of the spectrum are like, we need to address this.

That's right. They survey the landscape and they see that what's going on in the church with respect to sexuality, gender, et cetera, is bad.

We agree. But the response was wrong, is wrong. And your example of easy believism, which is the bad fruit of revivalism and seeker -sensitive, decisionalism, all this kind of stuff, right?

It's the bad fruit of all that, where people just kind of walk aisles and pray prayers and there's all kinds of like false professions and whatnot.

The solution in the minds of many is to just bludgeon people with the law, to introduce a new law to which we would say, well, there's a better way to respond to that that's biblical.

Think Paul in Romans 6. He responds with clarity on the gospel and union with Christ, not law.

We're sort of saying something similar here, that we agree with the assessment that things were not well, are not well, and something needs to be said, but the ways in which some have gone about it have been less than helpful and less than good.

Let's pivot now though, to talk about the opposite error. I do, and as an intro into that real quick,

I know that at this point we're 15, 18, 20 minutes in, something like that. And I know there are people who have been greatly impacted by both of these men's ministries.

And so, and what you're probably hearing is that, oh, you guys are misunderstanding them. You don't understand them.

And specifically, we don't get this with Driscoll as much as we do with Doug Wilson. You guys aren't really listening.

You're misrepresenting them. And I say this with humility and compassion.

Justin and I have done our homework. I have read and re -read and re -read many things to make sure that I am not misreading this.

And it wasn't like a one -time quote or one instance or one area. This teaching is very clear.

His view of marriage and sexuality, specifically Wilson, he has made his position clear.

And so, our criticisms of this is not a one -off conversation that was maybe slightly recorded from a clip of a sermon.

Just so that people hear us is that I'm not trying to just bash because we're going to get views on this.

This is not what we're trying to do. Well, we're not going to put, we didn't put names in the title. We're not trying to just get clicks.

So, to help you understand what we're contrasting it with, which is, well,

I'll hand it back over to you, is that we want to show you what I think the Bible does want us to do and the results of that.

Well, we're going to get there. Initially, I want us to talk. So, we've talked about the crude, crass binding of consciences where we shouldn't, et cetera.

We're now going to pivot to talk about the errors of what we would call purity culture and what

I might even call like sex is taboo kind of approach, which is what many people in our generation grew up in.

If you were in a conservative -ish church, I mean, I was in a liberal church theologically, but was still morally very conservative, be a good person kind of stuff, and this is how sexuality just was not talked about.

It might occasionally come up in some awkward youth group conversation, but even then,

I mean, nothing really good was said. So, this is a mistake that was made where the only things that are said generally to young people especially, and in one sense to all people, is that it's implied that sex is dangerous, sex is perhaps dirty, it's risque, it's something to be avoided, especially for young people, right?

Outside of marriage, of course, that's true, but that's all that's ever discussed is you need to stay away from this.

You just need to not go near it or you're going to get burned and there's nothing good to see here, you know?

And we're going to talk about the fallout of some of that or there is a hyper obsession with sexual purity where it, in the minds of many people, became the warp and the woof of what it is to be a young person who's a believer.

Well, yeah, the whole purity ring, which, listen, I'm not against that stuff, but let me reword it this way, Justin, the way it is presented is that the supreme ultimate goal of life is to be pure at marriage.

And I'm like, no, yes, that's a good thing, but there's such an arrogance and pride to that, it's like we're not teaching people just, the goal is not to just be pure, right?

Because then it's like, there's a negative side of it because you're still, it's a really bad thing that this has happened.

And if we're going to teach the whole counsel of God, right? And we're going to be faithful to do that, then sexuality, there's a, there's a positive side.

Absolutely. Then we're going to get there. I think really quickly before we get in, I'm not getting in there because we're itching to get to the good piece.

We will. A comment here on the damage of this. I mean, there are, there are umpteen, you know, books.

Again, I'm not just trying to throw names out there for the sake of throwing names out there, but this is a symptom of a larger systemic problem in evangelicalism.

I mean, Joshua Harris, for example, was thrust to prominence at a very young age because he wrote a book about dating and purity.

Yeah. Right. That's a problem in evangelicalism that you platform a person who's, he's not an ordained minister.

He's very young and he's writing a book about dating and we now become a phenomenon, you know, weird.

So, but he did this, he did something again, he saw a problem. Sure. He offered a solution and it made sense.

And a lot of what he said was good, but then there's a lot of them that it's like, Oh, that's way overreacting.

Sure. And there's a codification of things and again, a binding of the conscience where I don't think the scripture does.

And that's never a good idea for us. So in the midst of all of that, the purity culture stuff, and even the kind of sexist taboo approach where we just don't discuss it and we sort of naively or maybe blindly just kind of close our eyes and just don't look at it, don't think about it, and we just hope it's going to turn out okay for people.

And I think you and I pastorally have seen time and time and time again, that that approach has borne some really bad fruit for very sweet, sincere, well -meaning people who then enter into marriage and crash up against the realities of,

I don't know any other way to say it, then sex inside of marriage.

And it's like, uh, we're not quite sure what to do with this and things aren't going well, or, uh, there's discomfort and there's this, there's that.

And we don't know who to go to. There's a lot of guilt. There's a lot of shame. Again, that whole, you know, sex is bad.

Stay away from it. It's, it's dirty. It will ruin you. And then immediately, which is the way

I've framed it before. That's what we bombard people with. And then all of a sudden upon saying,

I do, we need to be able to pivot on a dime and now be prepared to completely and freely give of ourselves, our bodies for the good and the enjoyment of another.

Yeah. I need to be prepared to do that when all I've ever been told is that it's bad and that I need to avoid it.

And we shouldn't talk about it because if we talk about it, we're just going to cause people to run down the road of temptation, you know, um, you know, you ever seen the movie, you ever seen the movie, the village.

Yes. It's like they use this, this, this is it. They're trying to like keep themselves.

If you've never, you know, if you haven't seen it at this point, I apologize, but cause you've talked about it. Spoiler alert.

I mean, the movie is like 15, 20 years old. It is. It's very old. But the, the point of it is that they're using fear tactics for that person.

Who's like, man, I was going to go see it tonight and get out of here. Exactly. But the movie proves that what you can't control people that way through that, that, that type of fear tactics there.

And the, I can remember there, the, one of the first times

I was doing some premarital counseling and we had to have this conversation post their marriage coming back, just about like the psychological decompression that had to happen because there, there was just so much pain and anxiety that was going on in their brains.

And you know, it really, it shook me. My wife and I would have a lot of conversations on like, how do we care for these people and shepherd them?

And look, I grew up in that same culture. I remember reading the I Kissed Dating book by,

I remember the only thing I remember, what I remember from my youth was Christianity is about what

I didn't do. Of course. It's about abstaining from evil. That's right. And there was no like potential, you know, the potential of what joy and goodness could bring.

And it was all prohibition. Right. And what's interesting, like my personality, like if you tell me don't do something, unless I know for sure it's sinful,

I'm like, why? Right. You know, that's how most people are. So I also shepherded people who probably would not have enslaved themselves in dissent sexually if someone would have sat down and taught them the joy of it.

So it has both sides where you think purity culture actually is protecting people. They just lie to you.

They just pretend. It's like so many other things, man, like legalism, moralism, the binding of the conscience where the

Bible doesn't, neo -nomism, like a new law, all that. What does that do? It breeds hypocrisy.

Right. Because what it tells people, because people aren't stupid, and of course we're master manipulators, all of us.

All it does is reinforce everybody's instincts to just not be honest. Right. And to hide.

Well, and the world's over here advertising it, right? The world's advertising the greatness of what this could be in your life.

Well, and they're advertising the greatness as it pertains to the flesh. Right. Right. And gratify your desires.

Christianity's response to that is just to throw a big X on it. And I'm like, that can't be our response because...

Or just throw a blanket over it. It's like, oh, that doesn't exist. It's not, we don't talk about it. We don't, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

Not helpful. I'm going to move us into kind of the third piece of our conversation where we're going to talk about a better way.

Now, I'm going to front load this very briefly by saying that we should exercise great levels of discernment in terms of how we talk about this and then even when there are better and worse times to address this subject matter.

And a lot of what we're talking about right now is not going to be something we would communicate from the pulpit.

It's not even necessarily something we're going to communicate in public teaching per se, but this is the kind of stuff that we need to be able to talk about with our children and that we need to be able to talk about as believers, as saints in the church who are trying to help one another live as we say true things to one another, as we exhort and encourage, as we admonish and rebuke and correct, this is the kind of stuff that we need to be able to talk about.

Or we don't have a chance because the flesh is frail and the cravings of the flesh are powerful.

And I shouldn't say the flesh is frail. We are frail. In terms of just how we can be at times, we're so easily derailed and the desires of the flesh and the cravings of the flesh are very strong at points.

And so we need to be able to help people see, as you've alluded to multiple times, how God gave us sexuality, made us male and female on purpose, and he gave us this gift, that's what it is.

And like so many other good gifts he gives, it absolutely can be abused, corrupted, perverted, and it has been.

And it's incredibly damaging when good gifts are abused. God is dishonored and we are harmed legitimately.

So we need to be very careful, we need to be very thoughtful, but we need to help people see the good and the beauty in it. And if we talk more honestly and openly about it,

I agree with you. Rather than creating this stigma, that word's used too much, but I think this is fair, rather than creating the stigma around it and rather than creating this like, oh, well, what is that?

Because we never talk about it and all that, or rather than talking about it in worldly terms, which

I honestly think Wilson and others in Driscoll, I think it's very worldly. I think it's very carnal.

It's very primal. You know, it doesn't sound godly. It doesn't sound like light.

When Paul describes people in the church and marriages, you don't hear this kind of language.

You do not at all. So let's talk about a better way. Yeah, I agree. One of the things that I love is that the gospel doesn't stop when the doors of the bedroom close.

We are liberated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. We are given not only a new heart and a new name, but we're also given a new ethic and a way in which we treat each other.

Like, I love how Paul says the love of Christ controls us so that we consider others. When I listen to people talk about intimacy, it's like your job is to make me feel good.

Even when this whole view of between the man and woman, it's like the woman's job is to keep me happy. Or the goal of sexual expression is my own personal fulfillment.

That's right. Which is very self -centered. You know, people are like, oh, so we're not supposed to enjoy it?

You're missing it. Actually, what Scripture tells us is that the greatest joy and hope we have in life is when we are more concerned about caring for the needs of someone else.

Not just in the bedroom, but in all of life. But it applies here. It does. So when we approach sexual intimacy within the covenant relationship of marriage, man, how different would it be if we all approached that with this perspective that is clearly taught throughout

Scripture and it's broad in terms of its application, that we are to be outwardly oriented in love toward God and love toward neighbor, that to love one's neighbor as yourself is to fulfill the law.

This is how God tells us we are to be. The love of Christ constrains us. The exercise, even this interjection, but it's applicable, the exercise of our

Christian freedom, what governs it? It's not a code, it's love. That's what the apostles say.

Our love for one another is what governs our exercise of Christian liberty in a general sense and Christian freedom in a general sense.

Well, how much more so, if I can say it that way, in the covenant relationship of marriage, this person to whom

I have pledged my fidelity, my love, my affection to whom

I have given my body, should I not approach this relationship and sexual intimacy with that person with the perspective of my aim here is to give of myself in my situation for her good?

That's right, or for his good. Or for his good, if you're a woman. That's how we ought to think.

And Paul says this, your body isn't your own. It actually belongs to your spouse and so think in those terms.

Right. Well, and there's a lot of freedom when that happens to where, you know, sometimes you read books and I can't go back to the whole

Wilson, but when you read those things, you're thinking to yourself, I don't think scripture's giving us these obligatory things that are supposed to be happening.

It's like, listen, the marriage bed is sacred. It is between those two individuals and it's for their enjoyment and God's glory.

And to even say that, may God be glorified in the way in which we treat each other sexually, it's people like, oh, that's kind of weird.

You know, but God made, he made us. What does Paul say in Ephesians, right? Like the intimacy between a man and a woman is a mystery.

And it's like the same intimacy that we have, the church between Christ is a mystery. That means it's for God's glory.

So yeah, marriage itself and even the union in this way of a man and a woman is the way that it is because Christ was coming to save his bride.

That's right. That's important. And so, for example, the song of Solomon, nobody wants to touch it.

I'll go and say now, I think this whole either or approach to that book is stupid. You know, some people, is it

Christ and the church or is it man and wife? Yes, it's both. It's so clear. But like we were talking about earlier.

And it's immediate context. We do believe that it's a beautiful picture and it's greater context. Yeah, right. It is, it's a man and his, and his bride, and we should talk about it in those terms.

And then we should talk about what a man and his bride is ultimately about and what it points to, which is

Christ and his bride, the church. And we talk in those terms and it's helpful. You and I were talking before we hit record about how we want to talk, like you are already talking with your children because your children are older than mine.

How I will be talking with my kids in the near term as my children will be approaching, you know, pre -adolescence and all this.

We want to be able to talk with our kids about these things in these ways, not just the whole, like, don't do abstain, abstain, abstain.

It's bad, you know? And you, you know, yeah, you're going to be curious. Yeah. You're going to want to do all this stuff, but just don't, you know, just stay away rather than saying, yeah, you are going to be thinking these things and feeling these things.

You're going to want to express yourself in these ways with a person. You know, if I'm talking to my sons, you're going to want to express yourself in these ways with a woman or my daughters.

You're going to want to express yourself in these ways with a man. And that's a God given normal thing.

And it's actually really good when we use it the way God says we should. And it's, it is, it's, it honors

God. It's for our pleasure. It is for procreation. It's for all of these things. And let's talk about it like this, like we would talk about other good things that the

Lord has given to us. Like we caution our kids. I mean, I'm not trying to, we're just pulling out all the stops here, but like in my home, my wife and I, we, we consume alcohol and we do not hide it from our children.

We tell them what it's called. We talk openly about it with them and we let them know that it's not appropriate for them now.

It's a good thing that the Lord's given us that we enjoy. And in due time, we'll teach them more about it and how they can responsibly enjoy it.

That's right. So that in their minds, they'll never grow up with a stigma around, you know, that, that's like, that's like dad's juice or something, you know, that he doesn't want to talk to me about.

This is not the same, but it's similar in that let's talk openly. It's good. Here's how

God has intended us to use it. So talk to me about the things you're feeling. Talk to me about the things that you're wanting to do.

I'm going to talk to you about some things that you need to be aware of. And some pitfalls that you could find yourself slipping into that I don't want for you because I love you.

And here's the good that God has for you. And let's, let's hold it. If we're going to hold out, let's hold out for that.

That's right. Yeah. I wish I had these conversations when I was younger. You know, in more depth, my parents were very faithful in this way and meant to do, meant to do good.

And, you know, at the same time, I think we all, because of the culture we grew up in, wish that we could have talked more openly about some of this.

So I had a conversation recently with my own son. And what's interesting is I'm going to challenge every parent in here.

This is not a one and done, you know, they don't need to know the anatomy. So what you have to do is it's a constant, uh, we put it this way.

You are way outgunned and way outdone with advertising from the world.

The world is pressing in on them and reprogramming their brain every second of every day through music, advertisement friends.

So I'm constant in conversation with my son and it's, and I am my wife with our daughters and me with, even with our daughters, um, where I'm always talking about the positives and the upsides and the joy of what's going on.

Like recently I was talking to my son, I said, you know, you're going to be really having, um, you're going to start having strong affections.

You're going to be like, wow, I really, like, I think I really appreciate this person and I just want to be near her.

Right. And you're going to have a, you're going to have physical attract. You're going to just like your dad. I think your mom is gorgeous. I like to be around her.

And I said, Titus, I like to show myself like a physical affection towards your mom, because one,

I want her to know that I really care about her. I said, you're going to want that. And that's good. What I want you to learn how to do is to prepare your heart and your mind to not only do it in a way where you know,

God's being glorified because you're going to enjoy it the right way. And let me put it this way. You're actually going to enjoy it versus you fulfilling a temporary satisfaction that leads to guilt and shame.

And the shame, the guilt is real, but the shame piece is so significant. And if this is not the point, uh, and maybe we could talk about this a little bit in SR, people will say that when we'll make the statement that no sin is private, people will push back and say, well, what if it's just me by myself and my thoughts, and I'm just kind of,

I'm just kind of toying with the cravings I have. And it's just me. It's not hurting anybody else.

Yeah. You're a fool. If you think that's right, you are a fool because of this guilt and shame reality and the ways that you are, let's use some biblical language.

I mean, you are feeding that, that monster of your flesh. You know, that's, that's coming.

You're not going to treat them differently. Exactly. That's significant, but then you will, in particular, if you're a believer, even if you're not, because you were made in God's image and his law is written on your heart, your conscience will be wrecked.

You will be riddled with guilt and you will be riddled with shame. When it comes to this aspect of your life.

So do not for one second, think that you can toy with your cravings and your passions by yourself and it will not affect other people.

It will. It will. It will. I will, I will speak into this as well. I think this is why we do have an epidemic in the church when it comes to people struggling with what they watch.

You know, it's like Justin, you and I both have to counsel men and women. And I will say women too, men and women.

It's not a male only issue. And when, when sexuality becomes purely appetite fulfillment, right.

Where we are just satisfying the desires of our flesh. Well, that makes it super easy to do that.

And, and well, my spouse isn't doing it for me. And like, that's just a whole reprogramming of life.

Because now it becomes transactional. It's about my gratification. And then I end up resenting my spouse because my spouse is not meeting my expectations.

It's just, yeah, it's a death spiral. So I think we should definitely talk more about this in SR. And, um, we've got a lot of things that we can still cover, but, uh, for those of you, we keep saying

SR stands for Semperver from Monda. It's a different process, a second podcast, Justin and I do, uh, for those who support us, uh, monthly.

And we would, we just, uh, provide some additional content, additional thoughts. I do have some more thoughts about this problem with pornography in the church.

And, uh, we'll speak to that in our Semperver from Monda. If you'd like to learn more about that and join our community, you can go to theocast .org. We have an app that Justin and I are on.

We're going to actually do a live, uh, post shot here just to talk a little bit about some stuff. Uh, so it's just fun.

It's a fun community that we hang out with. Um, as Justin always says, it's like Facebook, but better.

And, uh, we do have a Facebook group. If you want to go join that, if you haven't downloaded it yet, go listen to Everyday Grace as an encouragement.

Um, my one request is that you be gracious with each other as we work through these things. I know there's a lot of opinions.

I know there's a lot of heated debates. Let's speak the truth in love, being gentle and kind.

Well, and especially when it comes to secondary matters. Yeah. We should be very charitable. That's right. All right. We'll see you guys next week.