March 11, 2022 Show with Mykola Leliovskyi on “An Assessment of the Russian Invasion of Ukraine from a Christian Eyewitness & Ukranian Citizen” (Part 2)

The Program Opens With News of the Russian Invasion and the Show’s Guests

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good.

Afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. Who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 11th day of March 2022.

And I am so delighted and thrilled and Grateful to our Lord God Savior and King. That my guest today even after hearing very disturbing Television news reports my guest today is still alive and well and unscathed in Ukraine.

His name is my cola Liliovsky and he is professor of biblical theology and hermeneutics at Grace Bible Seminary in Kiev Ukraine and Member of the leadership team at Grace Bible Church in Kiev as well.

And today we are addressing part two of of an interview that we had about two Mondays ago an assessment of the Russian invasion of Ukraine from a Christian eyewitness and Ukrainian citizen. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

My cola Liliovsky.

Thank you so much, it's a privilege to be back on with you again.

And once again, we are so happy that you are alive and well and safe and unharmed. Well, I don't know how safe you are, but you are unharmed so far and Yes, praise the Lord and there was a couple of days James White was extremely worried because he hadn't heard back from you in a two-day period after trying to contact you but We are so delighted that the Lord has answered prayer regarding your well-being and we have a special co-host today Pastor Rich Jensen a longtime friend of mine.

It was not only a longtime friend, but the church where he pastors along with Pastor Christopher McDowell and also Anthony Eugenio Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York. He is our co-host today particularly because he has visited and Spent time in Ukraine on several occasions.

Which was involved in the adoption of two of his children from Ukraine, I believe the first was 2001 and 2007 and he can correct me if I am incorrect on that. But it's such a joy to have you back on the program pastor Rich Jensen.

It's always a pleasure Chris good to be here today and was I right about the dates of your two adopt. Yes 2001 2007 great. Well, first of all, let us have my cola once again for our listeners who missed part one of this Discussion two weeks ago tell our listeners about grace Bible seminary in Kiev and also grace Bible Church in Kiev.

Sure.

So grace Bible seminary and church is associated with Grace Community Church in Los Angeles, which is pastored by John MacArthur. They sent missionaries to Ukraine back in the early 90s to start a training center and they got involved with starting local churches and So grace Bible Church was started in the early 2000s as an offshoot of Another church that was started earlier and so I've been a member of grace Bible Church basically since its inception and since 2002 when I was 15 years old and was saved by God's grace and evangelistic softball camp where I heard the gospel for the first time and was convicted of my sin.

And so grace Bible seminary is a Training center associated with the Masters Academy International and the master seminary where we train Men to exposit God's Word and I've been working with that ministry for some years now as well and so it's a joy and privilege to serve the Lord in those ways and especially now as these unprecedented circumstances have Really taken many people by surprise, but we're trying to do our best to not lose heart Look on the things above and and Serve those who would the Lord placed in our care.

Amen, and if anybody wants more information about grace Bible seminary and grace Bible Church in Kiv The seminary website is g b s dot org dot UA GBS for grace Bible seminary dot org dot UA and The website for grace Bible Church is grace Bible Church dot org dot UA grace Bible Church dot org dot UA and now pastor Rich Jensen let our listeners know something about Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York.

Well, we've been in existence. We're celebrating 26 years this year. We've just recently in the last couple years moved into a permanent facility that God has graciously provided for us. Beautiful facility.

Yeah, and we are a 1689 London Baptist Confession Church and Hold to the traditional reform Baptist views and We're growing the Lord is Multiplying and adding to our number daily and we're very grateful for the work that he has planted here.

It's such a blessing.

Praise God.

Eyewitness Reports From Irpin, Kiev, and the Devastation of War

Well.

My Cola. I have been hearing all kinds of reports about The devastation that has occurred through airstrikes by the Russians particularly in your hometown of urban and I was so relieved as I said at the outset of the program that you were well.

Because I don't know if these reports have been exaggerated by the refugees Who are fleeing urban? But there were reports by refugees eyewitnesses that the City of urban has been obliterated and some of you and said there is no more urban.

I'm assuming that must be hyperbole. But if you could let us know about how on earth other than the obvious the grace and mercy and kindness and good providence of our sovereign Lord, how have you Remained unscathed in the midst of all this.

Well, actually I'm located just I guess it would be south southeast of urban so It's very close but it's not quite urban so by God's grace that has not significantly affected Me, but yes, the the there was a heavy battles in that area I think the reason for it being is that.

It's a major highway into the capital city and there's also a major not a major but there's a significant airport there a military airport that would be very strategic for the Russian army to to capture and then use to stage their assault on Kiev and Since we've last talked there indeed have been many Many devastating battles and many civilians have died there been there there's been a lot of bombing of.

Just regular homes and apartment complexes where there's nothing but civilian civilians or civilian targets and so those cities have been evacuated and In the process I know of a brother in the Lord who died he was a volunteer he He evacuated earlier with his family he has a wife and a young child and he left them and he returned back to help others and he was hit by.

And I'm not sure whether it was an airstrike or an Artillery strike as it was helping a lady with her children and she she unfortunately died as well as long as well as the children and so yeah, there's been a lot of a lot of death a death a lot of suffering and We're still praying and the full for it all to end soon but by God's grace, I have not been significantly affected because I'm located more to the southeast.

Where those battles were?

Now pastor Rich Jensen as we said at the outset you have adopted two children From Ukraine who are now adults. Tell us about your own experiences in Ukraine what you remember about it. And I don't know how young your children were when you adopted them.

But of course if they were infants, they would have no memory. But if are they old enough to have any memories of Ukraine and what are you going through? Mentally and emotionally as you watch the unfolding of the Terrorist attacks by Russia.

This is not just your standard Military action. These are the actions of terrorists. They are intentionally attacking civilians and hospitals and ambulances and so tell us about your own experience in Ukraine and Again of what you remember about it what you're going through and if at all your your children as well.

Sure, well both my children are old enough. They they do have memories of Of Ukraine my oldest daughter From Ukraine. She's she was nine and a half when we adopted her. So she has very many vivid memories in fact, she's been in touch with one of her friends from the orphanage we adopted her from and one of the tragedies of warfare we see.

She was telling us that this her friend was Hiding in the basement of the building because the bombs are all around. They've been barricaded there. They can't leave and During this time her grandmother died and they couldn't even get her out.

So The poor grandmother's there the body is there and this family is huddled around. They can't do much of anything else. So Yeah, it's it's it's really bad. The orphanage that we adopted her from is in Harkov, which obviously is one of the first cities that the Russians came into and I do remember I have vivid memories of Harkov I have a lot of friends there We were treated so graciously.

I mean we we wound up having so many friends that We actually have had some of them visit the United States stay with us in our house so we do have a very strong connection with Ukraine and So that this has really affected my family we spending a lot of time In prayer, you know praying for the Ukrainian people because like I say We could not have been treated any better.

And of course with Ukrainian daughters now that connection is even is even stronger. So it's it's it's been very difficult for us.

Russian Propaganda, the Ukrainian Response, and the Question of Peace Talks

Well, since I cannot see you I can't see you. Giving me facial expressions or weight waving your hand or anything. Just feel free to interject into the discussion with a question of your own or questions plural.

For my Cola. And if you have one now, feel free to ask.

Sure, I.

Was concerned because I know from my time in Ukraine. There's a very close affinity with with between Russian people and Ukrainians because families crossing the border and all how. Has that affected and how things are going in Ukraine at all?

Well, yes, so.

The borders are completely shut off and Especially in the areas near the Russian and Belarusian border. There's you know military conflict so people try to stay stay clear of those areas and if people are evacuating most people are evacuating evacuating to the west of Ukraine and Western Europe and Unfortunately the way that the Russian and propaganda is presenting this military conflict is That it's really Russia trying to defend its people Both in Russia and in Ukraine and even Ukrainian people from NATO from the West and so many people in Russia see this as a war not really between Ukraine and Russia, but more so between Russia and NATO Russia and America and and some nationalists or fascists as they Ridiculously called them in Ukraine.

And so Unfortunately right now the relationship between the two countries and the two people is not very good and I see a lot of hatred on both sides. I.

See and How are you. I don't even know if you're hearing. By the way, whoever is making a lot of noise there perhaps. You could just try to have to move around so much. It's really coming close to your microphone.

How do you respond if you even hear these reports. From you as which which reports I was just about to explain. You hear pundits and politicians Here in the United States on television Saying that your president is behaving.

Perhaps irrationally. That he should be more prone to be seeking to have some kind of diplomatic discussions with Putin and that his.

His.

Perhaps the word I'm looking for is.

Is.

Brazen Behavior and of course I'm speaking from the words of the pundits and the politicians and it's probably a minority of them saying these things but That that he is just going to lead thousands and thousands of more Ukrainians to their deaths by not behaving in a more diplomatic way and seeking to have some kind of More beneficial meetings with Putin, but how do you react to that if you even are aware of it?

Yeah, we're trying to stay aware of what's going on. We're praying for all the peace talks. There's been several rounds of peace talks as far as I know our president has reached out To the president of Russia to have a face-to-face to face-to-face conversation about how to resolve Resolve the conflict and.

So far as far as I know the Russian president has declined. But he said maybe that I heard from one of his spokesmen that that possibility is open. Unfortunately, these peace talks have not really Moved anything in any direction as far as we know.

As far as far as I understand it as far as it has been reported Russia's demands are to denazify. Because denazify Ukraine, whatever that means. I've never heard that term before. They believe that the country is run by a Nazis fascists Extreme nationalist movement that is persecuting Russian speakers.

And so what one of the goals is to denazify the government and they probably they probably don't even really believe that. But if you could kill him, well, how can they if the president of our country is Jewish, right?

And.

You know before he became a president he was a comedian he had nothing to do with politics I he didn't even speak Ukrainian before he became the president. But anyways, that's the everybody knows that there is no such thing.

As is not. Well everyone. I shouldn't say that. People who know what's really going on in Ukraine are completely aware of that but Russian propaganda has been working and promoting the story that since 2014 when we had a change in power where the former president left or fled the country and We elected a different president and and maybe at that time they were saying that see these extreme nationalists took over the country.

But since then the this last president Vladimir Zelensky who's in power now, he's been he's been elected.

And.

He actually replaced the regime that came to power through that Revolution if you want to call it that way but in any case The Russian propaganda has been saying that Ukraine is out of control with these Nazis who are in cahoots with NATO and the West so one of one of the goals was to remove the current government and the second goal was to prevent Ukraine from entering NATO or any or European Union or any other alliance and The third goal was to protect and and liberate the the Russian speaking people and I know even today I was speaking with With a brother we had a service at our church.

And he said that he has relatives in Russia and they're writing writing them his family here in Kiev. That's being bombed. They're writing and saying don't worry. Just wait a few more days and you will be liberated and Everything's gonna be okay.

So Many people assume that you know, Russia is pursuing pursuing that agenda, but but that is completely inaccurate has nothing to do with the truth and so Even if Ukraine would want to agree to those terms It would be impossible because those are not I mean, those are not realistic things that's not that's something that can be done because none of that really exists and So basically since nobody really understands.

What is the purpose of this war? What goals Putin is trying to achieve? It's really difficult to understand which way these negotiate negotiations can go because It seems like what they want is they want Ukraine to Seed Crimea to say that Crimea is not a part of the Ukrainian territory anymore.

They want probably to take the eastern parts the the Donbass region Which is the Netsk Oblast and the Netsk region and Lugansk region the so-called DNR DNR and all in LNR and Who know and probably some guarantees that Ukraine is not going to be part of NATO or any other pro-western alliance as far as the performance of our president.

I think he has really surprised everyone. Because the former the president the one not before him, but the one that fled actually to Russia. He fled because he was afraid of his own people and this guy who like I said is a young guy.

He was a comedian and just five minutes ago. He's he's staying put he's being brave and leading the country and Before the war he wasn't that popular because he wasn't able to defend to defeat sorry to defeat corruption, but now Everybody thinks that he's doing such a stellar job and and he has over 90 support from the people he is really rallying the people and I think He's doing a great job in the circumstances.

I mean, I I Can't imagine who would want to be in his shoes right now. But I am afraid I am certainly afraid that this success If you want to call it that Ukrainian military has experienced because everybody assumed that Ukraine's not going to be able withstand Russia's attack.

But since Ukraine is holding off Russia fairly well. That there is a certain kind of bravado a certain kind of Hubris now that I hear from people and there's all kinds of jokes that well, maybe Ukraine doesn't need net NATO.

Maybe NATO needs to align themselves with Ukraine and and all these things. I hope that this is not pride that will go before the fall but I mean the people of Ukraine really need to be on their knees and beg God for mercy not to be proud and arrogant and think that they're hot shots, so hopefully, hopefully Ukrainians will Will not become arrogant in face of some temporary success, but they will.

They will remain calm cool seek peace restoration. I know that our president and then his advisers have communicated that they're willing to do anything. That would be reasonable to to end the war to stop the bloodshed stop the death of so many innocent people.

The Church’s Response, Ecumenical Drift, and the Need for Theological Discernment

Yeah, Chris if I can yes in for a second. You mentioned that you're concerned that the people don't get proud and and and an arrogant. But they need to be seeking the Lord. How would the church is faring during this?

The church has been able to meet. Are they having worship services. Are they getting together? How is that working out?

Yeah, so The churches I feel like they're trying to do their best to respond. Obviously, there are certain areas That are under heavy attack and churches. There are not able to meet. Most people are just spending nights days and nights actually in their basements like you said Because they're afraid for their lives and just today I've seen pictures of churches destroyed in Mariupol the southern city by the Sea of Azov that's been Encircled and besieged by the Russian troops for several days now people there are without Electricity water food.

There's a girl that died. I think she was six years old. She died out of from dehydration. So those people are in dire circumstances. They need immediate help. And so in places like that Unfortunately, they are unable to meet or even leave their house for that matter but in places where there is no direct military Conflict churches definitely meet and there's been a lot of There's been a lot of refugees Within Ukraine and outside of Ukraine, so there's been a lot of work with that churches are hosting people.

Churches are opening their Buildings and facilities to house to to serve those who are fleeing from the war and so I feel like the church is trying to do its best to to Use the resources available to them.

There's been a lot of help. And from outside and and people are trying to do. I think Christians are trying to do the best they to respond and to show mercy and to spread the gospel of Christ, so I've seen reports of Some brothers from other areas sharing that people have been turning to Christ.

So I certainly hope that the church would use this opportunity to to remind people what truly matters and That you know, it's not just their earthly lives are at stake but also their eternal lives as well.

My praise God is there any Disunity amongst the Brethren in Christ About what is occurring? Are there those who are blaming? The United States or other Areas or people For the conflict that is occurring.

Or there even any Russian loyalists that are not happy with the way Ukraine has responded. So I'm just curious about the the mindset of Brothers in Christ because here in the United States and even in other places in the world like the UK There are many different Disagreements that Are revealed on an ongoing basis all around the world in regard to a whole host of issues.

For instance in the United Kingdom, there are people who are in lockstep With my confessional standards the 1689 confession and so on Who are Reformed Baptists and yet they are very opposed to The typical conservative Americans Vociferous defense of the right to bear arms and so on.

There seems to be a much greater trust for the government and other places Of the world, especially the UK it seems then then people have in the United States so I know that there are disagreements in the body of Christ over all kinds of issues and in kovat and The mandates and the masks and the vaccines have divided the brethren in all parts of the world and I know vividly here in the United States there are night and day contrasts amongst people who may agree with each other theologically, but not Over issues of politics.

Have you witnessed any disharmony or disagreement amongst? Ukrainian brothers in Christ.

Well Chris like I shared during our last program since 2014 and Russia's annexation of Crimea and then The military conflict that they started in the eastern part of Ukraine. Even if they Who were loyal to loyal to Russia or sympathetic to Putin and his regime regime after they've witnessed witnessed the aggression the violence and and just what what he turns the territories that he captures into there's very very few people in Ukraine who are sympathetic and and when the war started and they've seen what What the Russian army is doing to civilians, it would be very difficult to find anyone who is sympathetic to the cause that That the Russian president is Promoting and so in the churches right now regarding this issue at least in Ukraine I know that in the Ukrainian churches, there is unity and mutual support and people understand that this is a huge trial That the Lord has brought on us all and everyone's trying to support and encourage one another like I said Christians in Russia, we you know, we are united by a One culture we are united that we were just united just a few years ago by the same language and many other things.

So in some sense the connection As pastor rich noted is pretty strong, but it has been A decisive blow has been dealt in 2014 With the annexation of Crimea and then steadily and now definitely another blow to to the unity and understanding and so there's a lot of a lot of animosity between believers in Russia Russian-speaking believers and Russian-speaking believers in Ukraine, and there's a lot of divisiveness and unfortunately, I Would say that like that the relations are really bad and it's going to take a long time a long time for for for it to heal because Unfortunately that there doesn't seem to be a unity and understanding between the Christians in Russia and Ukraine but as far as Christians in Ukraine, I think most of them a great majority are in agreement and See this as an attack on our country and an opportunity to to respond Serving those in need Trying to help protect lives and and also spread God's kingdom.

Prayer, Support, and the Need to Stay Focused on Eternal Things

Well, we have to go to our first break if my guests could mute their microphones during the break and. If you have any questions for my cola Liliovsky and what is going on in Ukraine.

My.

Email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chr is a are n ze n at gmail .com as. Always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence. If you live outside of the USA, don't go away.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in we are interviewing today someone that I have grown very fond of Mykola Leliovsky professor of biblical theology and hermeneutics at Grace Bible Seminary in Kyiv Ukraine and Also a member of the leadership team at Grace Bible Church in Kyiv.

We are addressing an assessment of the Russian invasion of Ukraine from a Christian eyewitness and Ukrainian citizen. Citizen part two. We had our first discussion with Mykola Two Mondays ago and co-hosting the program with me is my dear friend pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York.

Who adopted two children from Ukraine? We have a listener question from Brooklyn, New York and I'm looking for that question. I was just looking at it a minute ago. Oh here it is. Andrew in Brooklyn, New York asks, let me ask a simple but hard question.

Have you prayed for Vladimir Putin the man that is waging war against your country?

Yes, I have. And I will say that I have not prayed for the Lord to kill him and send him to hell even though some of my Brothers who were trying to encourage me from my friends from other countries. They told me that they do pray a prayer for God to kill Putin basically on a daily basis and Even though There are you know in Scripture we do find imprecatory psalms and things like that.

I Understand that God has a sovereign purpose in this and he is in control of everything. It is not ultimately Putin who brought his army to Ukraine, but but God is in control of everything and He has a sovereign purpose, which is good, even though we may not understand it in the circumstances but I have prayed for God to intervene and to to to stop his evil to stop him from perpetrating more evil.

But I do pray just as Paul instructed us in first Timothy chapter 2 for kings and those in authority For presidents even even the wicked ones. I mean when I think about the rulers that Were over the first believers first Christians in the scriptures they were not much better than Putin or Hitler or or Stalin their bloodthirsty tyrants who Persecuted Christians, but we see we see the attitude that we want.

We want God to to to save them. And so I hope and I pray regularly that God would Save Vladimir Putin would save those who are perpetrating these acts of evil. But I also pray that for God to intervene and and stop them from from harming more people and committing more evil acts.

We have our J and White Plains, New York. Who wants to know. We sort of Delved into this a little bit when we introduced you at the beginning. But he wants to know how do you attribute the fact that you are alive and well in Ukraine right now.

Well, obviously it's by God's great mercy. Right now people who live in Ukraine they understand that every day that They wake up and they're they're still alive and are in this world. It's just by God's grace and mercy and so By God's grace and mercy the areas that have been heavily affected Did not reach that did not reach my location and so so far there I my life has not been in any immediate danger and therefore I was able to stay put and Continue gathering with believers in our church and going outside and and and carrying on With with things like that.

So by God's grace I'm still unharmed and still remain in my local church and minister there and I hope that God will extend his grace and mercy and not only Will allow me to continue ministering in the ways that he pleases In the ways that it pleases him.

But I also pray that God would end this war and the bloodshed would stop and and people won't More people won't lose their lives.

Now are you forgive me if you said this before if you already answered this question. But are you in your hometown of urban now, or are you in Kiev?

Actually urban is not my hometown. Oh, dr. White gave me false information. Well, dr. White and I every time dr. White came to Ukraine we spent we lived in urban because the ministry at the time was located there and.

We have spent significant amount of time there and it's it's it's a suburb just outside of Kiev. I'm in the I'm in the northeast corner, which is about maybe a 3035 minute drive away from urban.

So.

Yes, I'm just just outside.

Alrighty, and we have.

A.

Joseph and South Central, Pennsylvania who asks a question. He says during times like this around the world. We often see Christians laying aside their theological and doctrinal differences in order to unite with brethren not from their own theological persuasion or denominations.

Sometimes that it is a good thing when the gospel is shared, but sometimes it goes to an extreme Where unity is found between those that profess to be Bible believers and those that actually have a false gospel.

Now I understand that even Christians can be actively involved in some ways with those in false religions when it comes to the physical needs of others and Be involved in what has been nicknamed co belligerence.

But have you witnessed any harmful or dangerous ecumenism that draws the line and when Christian Brotherhood is claimed between Christians and Those that have a false gospel.

Yeah, that's a that's a very good question and a valid observation and definitely I have observed that in the past in Ukraine. In the last few years. There's been a huge push for some sort of ecumenism.

We've had these joint Outreach services and there's a big celebration of the 500 year anniversary of the Reformation and I remember seeing these I don't know the tents at these evangelistic festivals that were put up by Extreme charismatic groups where they claim to perform miracles and things like that.

And that was all under the umbrella of celebrating the 500 year anniversary of the Reformation. So unfortunately, I would say or just as I said last time even though the Christians in Ukraine they seem to They seem sincere and they're in their desire to serve the Lord to serve the people.

They seem sincere and their desire to Evangelize others. There is a lack of discernment. There is a lack of Maturity biblical theological and oftentimes You know, I would I would say core issues of the gospel.

The.

Trinity Justification by faith things like that. They they are laid aside in order to to perform these ministries.

The.

Humanitarian aid and and different kinds of acts of mercy and things like that. So that is that is definitely regrettable and Alarming but in these circumstances, I think Since as I said last time this war kind of came suddenly and many people were not expecting Expecting to be the way that it is people are just scrambling To to do what they can and just they're staying within their denominations.

They're staying within their Communities. I think when the war ends Hopefully soon by God's grace That will be more of a challenge as there will be more people willing to help and there's going to be more finances coming in.

That I feel like that will be a temptation to compromise some of your beliefs even even the important ones In order to to gain more support and to have more influence now.