November 9, 2020 Show with Dr. Tim Clarey on “Carved in Stone: Geologic Evidence of the Worldwide Flood” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all happy Monday on this ninth day of November, 2020, and I'm glad, so glad, to have back as my guest for the second time

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Dr. Tim Clary, and he received a Master of Science in Geology from the

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University of Wyoming, a Master of Science in Hydrogeology from Western Michigan University, and a

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Ph .D. in Geology from Western Michigan University, who worked as an exploration geologist at Chevron USA from 1984 to 1992, developing oil drilling prospects and analyzing assets and lease purchases, and was full professor and geosciences chair at Delta College in Michigan for 17 years before leaving in 2013 to join the science staff at the

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Institute for Creation Research, having earlier conducted research with ICR in its

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FAST program, and has published many papers on various aspects of the

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Rocky Mountains, and has authored two college laboratory books, and is the author of Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Design, and a contributor to the

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Guide to Dinosaurs and Creation Basics and Beyond. Today, we are addressing part two of a discussion that we began a couple of weeks ago,

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Carved in Stone, Geologic Evidence of the

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Worldwide Flood, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second time to Iron Troupe and Zion Radio, Dr.

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Tim Clary. It's great to be here, Chris, it's great to be back. Amen, well

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I'm glad to have you back. In fact, I intend, God willing, to have you back again soon to discuss dinosaurs, and hopefully we'll give plenty of advance notice for especially parents to get their children to listen, because I know children, perhaps even especially boys, love dinosaurs as I did growing up as a little kid, and I still love dinosaurs.

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If they made dinosaur pajamas in my size, I'd be wearing them, but they probably do actually, somewhere.

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But if you could, before we go into the subject at hand, tell our listeners about Institute for Creation Research.

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Well, the Institute for Creation Research was founded about fifty years ago by Henry Morris, Jr., who was the co -author of the

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Genesis Flood book that came out in 1961, which really kind of restarted or reinvigorated the creation science movement in the 60s and through the 70s and up until today.

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And so many of us, including myself, read that book to keep us kind of young earth and believing in God's word and the truth of God's word as we went through college and heard all the secular stories about billions of years and millions of years, and there's very few resources out there.

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And so ICR was founded in 1970 to kind of keep contributing, keep bringing forth the evidence, the science to show that Earth really is young and that there really was a global flood.

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Well, praise God, and if anybody wants to look up more information about ICR or the

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Institute for Creation Research, what is that website? It's www .icr

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.org, just I -C -R -dot -O -R -G. ICR .org, great.

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Well, this is an important subject because a lot of the maligning, the slandering of a

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Christian approach to science, to intelligent design, to the origins of the

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Earth and all things for that matter, is in the realm of geology, and it's good to have somebody who actually has a doctorate in your field to show the world that we do have science on our side in the realm of creation, in the realm of even a young Earth creation, and the realm of geology.

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And one of those things is the evidence of a worldwide flood, and perhaps you can summarize why this is something that the secular scientists tend to dismiss, it would seem on the surface to be a strange thing to claim with certainty didn't happen, especially when they believe that the

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Earth is many billions of years old, so why they would be so adamantly opposed to the idea of a worldwide flood is somewhat strange, but if you could give our listeners the details on why this is so.

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Well, in some ways it's a little surprising because in this modern age, even if you're a secular scientist, you do believe the

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Earth continents flooded at least partially, if not very close to fully, several times in the geologic past.

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So even if you are not a creationist and you go to college, you will hear about these six major sequences, or sometimes they're called mega -sequences because they're the biggest ones, where over time the

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Earth is supposed to have sea -level rose and flooded much of the continent, so they see the evidence, but no one's really ever put it together to show that this is from just one big flooding that took place, but it was a progressive flood and it took place in that one year described in the

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Bible. The time that they put in between these, of course, is fabricated, there's really no evidence for time between these layers, just like when you look at Grand Canyon you see layer upon layer upon layer that looks just like bricks on a wall, there's very little evidence of time in between some of these layers they claim between the

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Muave limestone, which is supposed to be cambering towards the bottom of Grand Canyon, and the Redwall limestone, for example, above it.

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There's supposed to be about 160 million years of time missing there, but yet when you look at the rocks they're almost perfectly flat, one layer to the next, and you see that again and again and again throughout the rock record as I look, and so there is the evidence of these floods, but they just don't ever believe it was a complete flood, and that goes against their view, of course, of a flood of everything, it would kill all the land animals, just like what really happened, except for those that were on the

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Arks, and then they repopulated the Earth, of course, after the flood, but secular scientists, they don't want to believe the

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Bible, they don't want to believe there was a global flood, so they always try to say, well, if there was a flood, you know, the people in the

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Middle East were just talking about a local flood, and they talk about the Black Sea flooding, or something along that line, they don't want to talk about a global flood at all, a global flood would be too biblical, and they want to move away from the

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Bible, and again, much of that occurred back in the 19th century, a lot of the geologists of today, 150 years ago or so, about the same time

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Darwin came up with evolution, they developed this concept of deep time by James Hutton, and that was actually probably early in the 18th, or end of the 18th century, early 19th century, and they kind of wanted to push the idea of, you know,

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Moses and his writings of the Bible, God's Word, actually out, and just try to look at the rocks, and then they started saying, well, these rock layers took a great amount of time to be deposited, these rock layers took a great amount of time to be eroded, they deliberately forget, like it says in 2

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Peter 3, that there was a global flood, it was a one -time event that changed the entire world, and that's what

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I'm looking at, as I study the sediments across the world from continent to continent, and I see the evidence that there was one big progressive flood that started out kind of minimal flooding, got greater and greater and greater, and eventually reached a maximum, all at the same time, almost every continent at the same time, just what you'd expect in a global flood.

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Great. Now, in your field of geology, what would be the primary areas of this study of the origins of the

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Earth that would involve your expertise? I know that you would likely be, when you write and speak, speaking on even broader areas outside specifically geology, on occasion anyway, but what are the primary areas, and does it overlap with paleontology and so on, if you could tell us about that?

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Well, primarily what I've been working on since I came to ICR, and what I worked on with oil companies, is really the sedimentary rocks, by looking at large -scale, what they call stratigraphy, and that's the correlation of rocks from location to location, and trying to piece together the big picture.

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And very few people have actually done what I'm doing, probably hasn't been done on the scale I'm doing in over 50 years, and there's so much more data today with oil well drilling further and further offshore, that the data sets that I'm compiling is quite massive.

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But really, I'm looking at stratigraphy, and some of the things I did when I worked for Chevron, I was correlating oil wells from place to place using seismic.

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Some of the same things I'm doing now, I see where God had prepared me by learning these skills, above and beyond what you learn in college, to help me with the research

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I'm doing. Now, it does overlap with paleontology in a lot of ways as well, and I've had the pleasure of digging up dinosaurs and dinosaur bones in Wyoming and Montana several different times, but it's kind of important because to know where you are, a lot of times you have to kind of know which fossils were deposited at a certain time.

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And we see there's a pattern to the fossils, a global pattern to the fossils, there really is, but it doesn't show evolution.

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What it shows is sudden appearance, and if you read through the secular textbooks on paleontology, they even will admit that, that all the fossil record shows is sudden appearance of new organisms at different levels, and those levels, in my opinion, what the rocks really indicate is the different ecological zones as you kind of go up in elevation.

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So early on you're flooding shallow seas and you get marine fossils, almost exclusively marine in the first several sequences as the flood waters kind of came in on the continents.

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Then you go to the next level, as you start to flood the land, you start to see suddenly there's coal seams all over the earth, and you see land animals start showing up, but these are always mixed in with marine animals, and you go higher up, you get higher elevation plants and higher elevation animals, mammals and things on top of the dinosaurs.

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And so there's an order to the fossils, but it's an order of the flood, as you flood at different levels. You've got to remember, the flood lasted, it rose for 150 days,

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I think, before it reached the peak, at least that's what I believe the Bible tells us quite clearly, and that's where I see the rocks actually match that, there's a slow progression, month by month, week by week of the waters getting higher and higher and higher up to day 150, and of course it took another 160 or so days to go down.

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Now, when it comes to fossils, what theory better explains how we even have fossils?

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A theory that these animals and plant life lived millions or billions of years ago and somehow left these impressions that are now stone for us, or the idea of a cataclysmic flood that instantly buried everything in its path, and that it was a relatively much shorter number of years ago, adding to the thousands of years.

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What would be the more logical, even from a scientific standpoint and a logical standpoint, tell us about obviously your bias, but if you could just explain why one is even more logically, one even more logically makes sense than the other?

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Well, fossils don't tell us age, fossils are just there because they've been buried fast and deep.

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Even the secular scientists are now recognizing that these, even though a lot of books will still say slow, gradual burial, they now recognize to make a fossil you've got to have special conditions to bury things fast and deep, and it's the vastness of these fossil beds that we find that to me is incredible, has to be almost global catastrophes taking place, like the flood.

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Because we see in places in Montana where there's 10 ,000 of the same type of ductile dinosaurs, the myasauras, all buried within a one -mile by three -mile area, and we see this in other locations, thousands and thousands of the same animals, thousands of nautiloids all buried in a very small area in the lower part of Grand Canyon.

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You see these massive beds of fossils being buried on a massive scale, and the secular scientists have to say, well, this is a huge 1 ,000 -year flood over here, this is a 1 ,000 -year flood over here.

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And again, they don't want to accept the idea of a global flood, but when you look at the rocks and the fossils that are in them, you see this mixing going on all the time.

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You see land animals mixed with marine, or you see just marine, but you see all this influence, all this mixing that only makes sense when you really analyze the data.

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Just look at the facts, what the rocks really and the fossils really show. It screams global flood.

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If there's one flood—now, fossils can form quickly, too, under the right conditions. So again, fossils don't tell you the age, they have to use fossils, and then they have to find—what they've done is they've used their radioactive dating methods to find lava flow or an ash flow that cuts across the layers, and they try to bracket the age of the fossil based on the age they extract from these lava flows, but you're not really dating the fossils themselves.

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And they're under the right conditions in the laboratory, they've made fossils, petrification can occur within 90 days.

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We see tree or fence posts stuck in the ground that have been there for maybe decades, 40, 50 years, and they can partially petrify if they're sitting in the groundwater.

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So there's a lot quicker processes to make fossils, even to petrify things, I think. And that kind of goes the other way.

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Within those fossils, we're finding again and again—there's nearly 100 papers now that have found original proteins still preserved in the dinosaur bones, or fossils that are even much older, supposedly, than the dinosaurs, things that supposedly go back a half a billion years or more.

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They're still finding original proteins and tissues that should not be there. There's no way to preserve those things that long with constant groundwater flow, no matter how deep they're buried, it's just—there's no explanation for it.

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And so the secularists have kind of put up their hands and said, this is impossible. But it's been going on now, they've been finding these for over 20 years.

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If you go back even before when Mary Schweitzer found the proteins in the first dinosaur,

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T. rex femur, there's even been other papers before that that have found original proteins and blood vessels and blood cells, like things, and osteocytes cells, but they weren't really widely known.

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So there's—this is—more and more of these every year, there's several new discoveries where they're finding things that are really just impossible to be there.

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And they have really no explanation other than these things imply a much younger age than they say.

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But other than that, the fossils don't tell us an age. But what we do find in the fossils, they tell us it's a young age.

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Well, you just said that the secular scientists are throwing their hands in the air and saying this is impossible.

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What do you mean by they're saying this is impossible? Are they saying that these are fraudulent, manufactured pieces of evidence?

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I think most—well, go ahead. No, that's basically all I was going to say. I think most of them are accepting that there's a few journals that still won't publish any papers dealing with this.

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You know, there's a few old school papers that are like, humpf, humpf, we're not publishing this new nonsense. But most of the secular scientists are not recognizing, okay, there are these what they call chemical fossils.

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They try to downplay the implications of them, obviously. And the way they get around the age problem, they say, well, we just don't understand how these were preserved.

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We know the kids are millions and millions of years old. We just don't understand how they were preserved. But they're almost calling that a miracle to preserve these things, because we're seeing them over and over and over.

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And every part of the world, every rock layer, you know, from the oldest, earliest rocks in the Cambrian on up, all the way through, we're finding these original tissues in different animals, different fossils, showing that the impossibility is not just in one layer.

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It's mixed throughout the rock record. And all of this is telling us that these rock layers are really not millions of years old.

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They're in the range of 4 ,500, just like the Bible tells us. And when it comes to frauds, don't we know for certain that some of the acclaimed discoveries by paleontologists and geologists and others, especially in years past, or maybe you can tell us about a recent one, but these turned out to be totally manufactured fakes?

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Oh, yeah. There's one in 1999. It was in National Geographic. If you get a chance to go to a library or somewhere to find a copy of it, they talked about Archaeoraptor.

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So it's different than Archaeopteryx. Archaeopteryx is a real bird in the Jurassic layers, kind of midway through the flood.

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But Archaeoraptor was totally fabricated, because evolutionists are pushing the dinosaurs to turn into birds, and the dinosaurs really are birds, and that sort of story now is out there.

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Well, they started pushing this in 1999, and they found a specimen from China that they bought here in the

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United States at a rock and gem show, which is mistake number one. Never name a new species on something you didn't extract from the rock yourself, even though you think you know where it's from, there's too much way to cheat and kind of fabricate things.

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And sure enough, this was a half bird and a half dinosaur glued together, but they saw what they wanted to see, and their itching ears wanted to hear.

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They were able to kind of fabricate this Archaeoraptor, which was an hour -long TV show, and National Geographic did a big spread on it in their magazine, and then about a year and a half later, they had to publish a two -page retraction in the back of their journal saying, okay, this is a mistake.

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It was glued together. But all the major paleontologists in the world, I won't name names, but all the major paleontologists out there were like, yes, this is great.

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This is a half bird, half dinosaur, just what we thought we would find, because we know that they evolved into each other.

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But in fact, the whole thing was just a fake. So there are fakes out there, unfortunately. But again, you need to write in, or you need to remind yourself as a scientist, if you didn't pull it out of the ground yourself, or have someone pull it out and take pictures, they can fabricate things really well.

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And it wasn't until they did some CT scans that they realized these things were glued together. Now, do people normally get very wealthy when they fraudulently invent some of these things or manufacture them?

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Yes, somebody did along the line, because they know what scientists want. So I don't know if it was the Chinese guy that extracted it that got some money, and he sold it to somebody else and sold it to somebody else.

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Eventually, it was purchased, I believe, at the Rack and Gem show here in the United States for about $70 ,000, if I remember right.

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And then that was taken, and they named it. They even gave it a name, a new species. Nobody saw that these things were glued together.

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The top and bottom pieces were glued together. One was a bird, one was a dinosaur. It's amazing how science goes out the window when you have something that really fits what they want to see.

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And again, unfortunately, scientists are doing, I think I talked about this last time, what scientists are doing is they're doing verification science.

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They're not out looking at data. They're not out collecting data like I'm trying to do in my research and looking at where the rocks really show.

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They're trying to verify what they think they already know. And so something like this Archaeoraptor, this hoax, fits right into what they wanted to see, so they were willing to believe it, even though they finally found out in the end that it was a fake.

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Yeah, they're defying what science is really supposed to be, and they are acting as if, even though they would never admit this, they are acting as if their understanding of the age of the earth and their denial of an intelligent designer and all these things, they act as if this is their religion.

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And they tenaciously cling to it like religious dogma and excommunicate and declare as heretics, obviously not using those words, those that make discoveries, even when they are authentic, like the tissue on dinosaur bones and so on, that smacks their so -called theories in the face.

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Well, yeah, I wrote about that a little bit in my book, in the first chapter in my Carved in Stone book. I mentioned that once I kind of came out and announced to the world that I am working for the

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Institute for Creation Research, that I became a non -scientist in the eyes of many of the people

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I used to work with. Although, you know, many of the guys at the oil company, they're like, well, you know, you were pretty good, Tim, at fine oil, or you were, you know, you published some good papers, or you're a really good student, you know, going to school.

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And my dissertation is still well -received and well -thought -of back at the University of Western Michigan University.

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A lot of professors, they're kind of like, well, you know, you're a good student and smart, but you just don't understand what happened to me.

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You know, like I did something wrong because I don't accept the dogma that the consensus science, which is not science at all, that's the problem.

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When it's consensus, it's not science. And unfortunately, they use that as their argument, like, well, all the other scientists believe this, so you must be wrong.

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But in fact, it's the other way around. If you're following the data, the data will lead you to, you know, the real story.

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And the real story shows these fossils are young. There really was a global flood. And that's the beauty of the research

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I'm doing, what's in that book, is it shows a whole new interpretation and mechanism and a whole new flood model updated from the

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Henry Morris 1961 book to kind of really show what the rocks really do show, that they really do show a global flood.

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And all the fossils that are found in the rocks fit with that. Everything about it shows a young and a recent global flood.

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Now, even more important, I believe, are the frauds that manufactured the so -called skeletal remains of transitional species from animal to human.

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Am I right? Yeah, that's, I mean, we just talked about the Archaeoraptor is one of those. That's probably the best example that's been in most recently.

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But there's been others. You know, the human evolution thing, the whole Piltdown Man thing was fabricated. It was supposed to be a human transitional fossil with a missing link.

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And it was shown to be a fake as well. And even I did some research into the

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Laotoi footprints, I believe they're called. The footprints are supposed to be made by Lucy, the so -called ancestor to humans as well,

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Australopithecus afarensis. They dated these ash flows and these things are like over 3 million years old.

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And they found these footprints nearby where they found the bones of this, what we believe is really just an extinct ape.

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But the footprints show they walked just like a human. And I actually found a secular scientist,

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I believe from Sweden, who has a blog and he shows that basically these probably are human footprints from a completely different age than what they're saying, probably from the

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Ice Age. Ice Age human footprints after the Flood footprint on the edge of this lake. And unfortunately they covered up the footprints with a bunch of dirt and then a bunch of big rocks so nobody could come there and deface them or destroy them.

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But in the process they destroyed the footprint. They went back to look at them and they had destroyed them by covering them up and protecting them.

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But his argument was they dated these, they called them volcanic ash, but really any geologist that knows sedimentology knows that this isn't an ash if it's just a layer that has some ash in it.

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All you're getting is a maximum age. So even if you believe the secular story like this guy does, he says the maximum age of these is 3 million years.

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He doesn't mean these rocks are 3 .7 million years old, I think as the story goes. So he says these are most likely modern -day human footprints.

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It has nothing to do with Lucy, and therefore the evidence that Lucy walked upright is just out the window. And so another kind of hoax that they're perpetuating, but you don't ever hear this.

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This is things that are talked about even amongst the secularists, but it doesn't make the news, it doesn't make the print that people read every day.

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People are only taught the stories that seem to fit their model. And so the things that don't fit, they're just disregarded.

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Just like the retraction National Geographic did in the following year, they realized their whole story was built on a hoax.

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He did a two -page retraction in the back of the journal about a year later, and it's a hoax, I think, and nobody talks about it.

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So it's similar to finding, you know, the meteorite that supposedly showed evidence of life from Mars, and they found it later.

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It was all just contamination, all the isotopes and that contamination with seawater in Antarctica and places like that.

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But none of that ever made the news. Everybody just heard Bill Clinton and other people when he was president say, we found evidence of life on Mars, and that's all people hear.

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And they never hear when scientists go back and study these things and realize this isn't true, those never make the front page.

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And so unfortunately, they're able to perpetuate myths like we're 98 % like chimpanzees when it's not even remotely true.

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You know, the full genome of human and chimp genomes shows about an 80 % match, but yet they still walk around with T -shirts saying we're 98 % like a chimp.

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You know, there's all these things in the past 150 years that we found that are completely wrong, yet they're still being taught in many cases.

27:41

Really? They're still being taught? Yeah, there's still a lot of that. People still hear we're 98 % like a chimp, which has been totally shown to be wrong in the last decade or so.

27:54

That's interesting that you say that. I saw a documentary, and I can't remember the name of it.

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I think the documentary was named after the name of a chimp that was being studied, and this was a secular documentary.

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It was a documentary created by secular scientists, evolutionists,

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Darwinian evolutionists, and so on. And it was basically,

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I think, the task was that teaching this chimp sign language was adding to the evidence that we evolved from the apes.

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And yet, even these secular scientists at the end of the film discredited the idea that this was proof of that in any way, shape, or form, or even close to it, which was refreshingly surprising.

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That is. I actually saw a documentary, I forget what it was, in the last few months on some chimpanzee evidence where somebody visited with these people that were studying chimpanzees at a rate of 98%, like a chimpanzee again, right at the very beginning.

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Just threw it out there. And these are people with PhDs in biology that study chimps for their PhDs. They, of all people, should know better.

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They should keep up on the current science, but yet they find themselves repeating the old evolutionary stories.

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You know, this was just a show made this past year. So it's still out there, unfortunately, these myths and these hoaxes.

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And once they get entrenched in the people's minds, the general public, it's very hard to get them out of the general public, even out of the scientists.

29:37

They like to hold on to these stories as well, I believe. And they try to make the Bible just a story.

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They try to make the Bible just like the Greek and Roman myths. And they try to dismiss the Bible as, oh, that's just a story.

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It's kind of a cute little story about an Arakan being whoop -de -doo. But again, my book really lays it out there.

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I haven't heard anybody really refute my data. I mean, people that don't agree with me, older geologists, you know, secular geologists, they're like, well, we like your data, because the data's real.

30:07

It's the real rocks. But they don't like my interpretation. But I challenge them and say, how would you interpret this? What other way can you interpret this other than a global flood?

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You can see the rocks' progression, you know, the same level at each continent at the same time, the same peak on all the continents at the same time.

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And then they all go down at the same time. It just matches exactly, you know, you can almost go verse by verse in Genesis chapter 7.

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And that's what I try to do in my book. I try to show where about day 40 might have been, where day 150 might have been in the rock record.

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The Bible doesn't give us all the details, but it gives us enough to tell us that there was a progressive flood that started to flood.

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And by day 40, the ark started to float. So now you know you're flooding land. And that's when I see in the rock record, suddenly there's land plants.

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Suddenly there's land animals show up in great numbers. Before that, it's almost all marine. And so you can actually kind of map out, and I try to do that in my book.

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The global pattern matches exactly what the Bible says. And that's, I think the strongest thing in my book is it really does show the rocks really do match exactly what the

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Bible says. There was a global flood, and the mechanism God used might have been this rapid plate tectonic movement that's called catastrophic plate tectonics.

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But that seems to be the right answer. That seems to be, at this point, the best theory to explain what we see.

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And it even explains the ice age after the flood. By the way, I looked up that documentary

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I was talking about. It was called Project Nim. N as in Nancy, I -M as in Michael.

31:40

That was the one about the chimpanzees I'm talking about. But we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

31:52

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

32:02

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Tim Clary after these messages from our sponsors.

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak, and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation, and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

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that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa, on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Welcome back, Chris Oranson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and our guest today, if you just tuned us in, is

42:43

Dr. Tim Clary. And we are discussing, discussing, it's not disgusting, it's a wonderful book.

42:53

We are discussing his book, Carved in Stone. And if you'd like to join us on the air, to find more about geological evidence for the worldwide flood, our email address is chrisoranson at gmail .com,

43:09

chrisoranson at gmail .com. And please, as always, when you're asking a question, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

43:19

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

43:26

We were talking before about the secular scientists who have been involved in frauds of geological discoveries, paleontological discoveries, and so on.

43:44

What about the other side? Have we ever been caught, not that you and I have been caught, but have been those who claim to be

43:51

Christians, or claim to be supporting the biblical narrative, ever been known to commit these kinds of frauds?

43:58

There's actually a movie, it's a comedy, called Don Verdeen, Sam Rockwell is the actor portraying this biblical archaeologist who searches for items that can prove the stories from the

44:12

Bible are true, and it turns out he was making a lot of money on things that were hoaxes, and so on.

44:20

But anyway, do you know of anything like that that is going on, or has gone on? Not really specifically,

44:27

I'm sure there's a few cases where people are doing that, they get kind of caught up in the money or the fame. Sometimes maybe as a creationist, people might go a little too far, pushing discoveries that they found, maybe beyond the realm of science.

44:41

And so at ICR, we try to make sure that the stuff that we write about or put in our books is stuff that's been somewhat verified at least, and not just something that's been pushed too far.

44:52

And there's a fine line there sometimes, because sometimes the discoveries are made maybe a century ago by science people of the time, they didn't have maybe the techniques that we have today to document things as well, but yet there's still legitimate discoveries, and that's like some of these human fossils that we hear about in Italy, in places where they're found in rocks that are supposed to be well before humans theoretically evolved in the sake of their story.

45:19

And so they've been dismissed as these things were buried in later, or caught out of place.

45:25

But I think there are some well -meaning Christians out there that may push things a little too far beyond science.

45:32

You mentioned the word prove, archaeology can prove things. Well, there's very few things you can prove in our science, because we're looking at forensic things.

45:42

When I look at the rocks, this is something that happened in the past. The flood doesn't happen again.

45:49

It happened once. You get the effects of that flood that made those rocks. And how they got there and when they got there, that's what we have to decide.

45:57

Same thing with archaeology. They might have some years, some coins, and things like that. They can document certain things.

46:02

But again, without going back to the past, it's very difficult to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, as they say.

46:10

But we can make some pretty good inferences, and that's what forensic science is all about. Geology is one of those.

46:16

We're a little bit less empirical than, say, chemistry, where you can repeat things over and over and over in the laboratory. There's things we can do as a geologist in the laboratory, melting rocks and watching them crystallize, those types of things.

46:27

But we don't know the conditions that these rocks were under at the time. We don't know the velocity of the waves or the water.

46:33

We don't know all these inferences that can change the conditions dramatically. But what we're seeing again and again and again, especially in,

46:41

I'm going to go off on a little tangent here, what we're really seeing in the last 20 years is some completely different changes that we're seeing in the rock record.

46:49

I talk about this in my book. There's what Steve Austin calls the shale revolution. Rocks are now, when they create what looks like the rocks we see in the real world today, they have fine laminations in the shale layers of the clay -rich rocks.

47:02

In order to get those fine layers and fine laminations, you've got to have moving water. So we're finding now in the real world that you can't just let clay settle out of a stagnant water body like they've told us for years and years and years.

47:13

Clays that are now, to match the rock record, have to be moving about a foot or so per second. So you have to have moving water to even deposit clay.

47:22

And the same thing is true of limestone. We used to think limestone slowly precipitates out of solution or slowly settles over thousands of years to make just a few inches.

47:30

But we're now finding that's not the case either. You actually have to have moving water to deposit these rocks to mimic what we see in the rock record.

47:38

So the rock record of what's happening today, like in a lake, are completely different things. To get the results that we see in the rocks, we've got to have moving water.

47:46

So to me, that's kind of shocking. It isn't really well -publicized in the secular textbooks. They don't know really where to go with this, but there's a couple of professors that give talks at some of the secular conferences every year showing that shales and clay -rich rocks, which are thought to be the bastions of deep time because they take millions of years to deposit just a few feet of clay, are actually that's not the case.

48:09

Under the right conditions, you see that they're deposited by moving water to make these thinly laminated or layered, almost like the pages of a book, shales that we see.

48:20

And so kind of the whole world of slow deposition is being tossed on its ear, so to speak, because the real rocks reflect moving water, and the moving water reflects back to the flood.

48:34

When I was a kid, a real young kid, I found a fossil in the woods not far from my home across the street, and I lived on the south shore of Long Island, Amityville, Long Island, which was, we had our own bay, and so I was probably ten minutes by car from the bay, and I found in this woods a fossil of a sponge.

49:05

It was actually a whole sponge. I don't mean the kind that you use to take a bath.

49:11

I mean the animal, the marine animal sponge, and it was solid as a rock, and there was an impression of a fish, a clear impression of a fish on top of it.

49:26

So in other words, the fish likely died and was buried instantaneously by the mud, as you were saying happens to form a fossil.

49:38

And this was not all that far below the surface of this wooded area where my friends and I were playing around and digging.

49:48

Now, of course, this could have been the possession of somebody that lost it in that woods.

49:54

It didn't necessarily originally come from there, I don't know, but unfortunately

49:59

I lost it, being the stupid kid that I was. I have no idea where that sponge is today.

50:08

But it still is mind -boggling to me why scientists, secular scientists, seem to scoff at the much quicker forming of these things and the much more recent forming of these things.

50:28

Like I was just on a tour of a cave here in Pennsylvania recently with some friends, and the way that they come up with these millions of years for the stalagmites and stalactites and so on.

50:46

If these are caused by water dripping, you would think that that would be impossible for it to even last that long.

50:53

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Well, they don't consider conditions were different in the past.

50:59

I mean, even realistically, even if you don't believe it, younger, you've got to realize that in these caves, as climates change over time, you're going to get different amounts of water dripping through these caves.

51:12

They turn the faucet up higher and lower. That's going to dramatically change the rapid, the slower, more rapid rates of forming these stalactites and stalagmites.

51:21

And so to project back the rates we see today, back for millions of years, and then in some cases billions of years, is quite ridiculous.

51:29

Because everything, when we try to do that, if we're off by just a little tiny bit, that's going to expand into a great amount of error well beyond orders of magnitude error by just a very small change by measuring the rates today.

51:44

And that's one of the problems with absolute dating techniques, is they use the decay rate today and project back millions or billions of years.

51:52

And they don't consider that there's groundwater flowing through these rocks all the time, all that time, bringing minerals in and out of the system constantly.

52:01

They act like these systems are closed off, and they can assume this, and they can assume that, and they end up with four unknowns.

52:08

So they assume two of them, because they only have two equations to solve. And so to solve the date of a rock, they have to assume how much parent was there, how much daughter was there, how much decay rate took place, and they always assume everything, of course, was uniform forever and ever and ever.

52:25

And those all fall flat. And it's really kind of silly to try to age date things when you can't go back in time and actually see the real date.

52:34

And again, I talk about it in my book, and there's been examples over and over and over and over, I think I talked about this last time, where they've dated lavas that we know the age, in the last 1 ,000 or 2 ,000 years, historic eruptions.

52:46

And they're off by several orders of magnitude every time, if not five or six orders of magnitude.

52:52

So instead of 1 ,000 or 2 ,000 years or a couple of decades, they find things that are millions of years old or hundreds of thousands of years old.

52:59

And so we're supposed to believe that these things are accurate, and they're always reported as facts, yet they never seem to get the numbers right when we know the actual age of these things.

53:08

And we've got to go to our midway break, and we'll pick up right where you left off. Folks, this is the longer -than -normal break, so please be patient with us.

53:16

Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to obey

53:24

FCC regulations and localize Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio and their other programming to Lake City, Florida.

53:33

So they air their own public service announcements and other local things while we air our globally heard commercials.

53:38

So please use this time wisely. Write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, which will make them happy.

53:48

And therefore, if they are happy, they are likely going to remain our advertisers. And if they remain our advertisers, we are going to remain in existence because we absolutely depend upon the advertising dollars that come in from our sponsors to exist.

54:05

So please respond to our advertisers as much as you can and write down their information that will more assure you of being able to do that.

54:16

And also, please send in a question for Dr. Tim Clary on geology and on anything involving the young earth creation realm.

54:30

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com. We'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

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Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the

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Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

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The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

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Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the

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today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

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Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

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And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Here's what

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Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

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Good to be back. Chris, I always enjoy our time. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe and for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reformed Baptist Church now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

01:01:21

I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught discipled and edified by the

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I also want to congratulate Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder

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Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church go to hopereformedli .net

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That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711

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That's 631 -696 -5711 Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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That's liyfc .org As host of Iron Trumpet Zion Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

01:06:20

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

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01:08:43

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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01:10:06

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01:16:00

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01:16:31

Tim Clary on our discussion, this is part two of a discussion we began some weeks ago on Carved in Stone Geologic Evidence of the

01:16:43

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01:16:48

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01:17:06

Joey in South Central Pennsylvania who has a question and he asks is there geological and paleontological it's not an easy word to say evidence that man and dinosaurs lived at the same time

01:17:26

I know that secular scientists laugh and scoff at the very idea of that they think it's nothing more than a product of cartoons like the

01:17:36

Flintstones but they will insist that this is an impossibility and that there's no evidence pointing that way but I have heard about dinosaur tracks being with human tracks and other things like that that have been discovered and I don't know how much of those evidences are authentic ok well we've actually

01:18:00

I live pretty close to the Glen Rose tracks and I've been down to some of those and I've looked at the museum run down there by a brother in Christ and you know at ICR we're a little bit shy,

01:18:13

Dr. John Morris worked on those tracks back in the I believe the 1980s, wrote a book and then he went back a decade or so later and some of those human tracks were actually developing toes, what he thought were human tracks were actually dinosaur prints that were just weathered down a little bit deeper to expose the claws and the toes.

01:18:31

So we kind of pull back a little bit and there may be some validity to those but there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of evidence of mixing of human bones with dinosaur bones and I think part of that is answered by the research

01:18:42

I've done for my book which I never knew either until I started doing the research but there appears to be areas that are low elevation where the dinosaurs lived in the pre -flood world and I've mapped these out based on how the rocks were deposited as we progressed through like the

01:18:55

Cambrian the early flood sequences all the way up through about the time of the dinosaurs where they get deposited maybe 100 or maybe 120 days into the flood and so they were alive for a while because they were in areas that didn't flood right away and so areas like around Grand Canyon, the reason there's no dinosaurs in Grand Canyon is because those areas were a shallow sea and the dinosaurs were living further north of there up in Colorado in the

01:19:19

Rockies in that area what I call Dinosaur Peninsula in my book, the Peninsula of Land or Lowland I see this on other continents as well

01:19:26

Africa, South America and Europe now and I'm working on Asia right now

01:19:31

I see the same sort of pattern the dinosaurs lived in separate areas from many of the mammals that humans would live with like camels and horses, we don't find dinosaurs mixed with camels and horses either they're always found in layers above the dinosaurs because I believe they were living at a higher elevation to begin with and then of course humans and many of these mammals probably were moving and migrating a little bit more efficiently than the dinosaurs to the highest elevations and survived until later in the flood as well but it's a big question, what we see after the flood is a lot of evidence that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, we see carvings and paintings and descriptions in the

01:20:11

Bible and Job chapter 40 and Job chapter 41 of the behemoth, the leviathan which were apparently dinosaurs even though they're disregarded by secular scientists you know those are just stories about a crocodile or something or a hippopotamus or even

01:20:27

Christians even Christian commentators for drawing those kinds of things you read in your

01:20:32

Bible it'll say hippopotamus or crocodile you know they don't want to believe because they're taught that they're dinosaurs and humans lived millions of years apart, but in fact there's plenty of evidence in our own discovery center our museum here at ICL we opened up last year we have a big wall that shows a lot of the evidence, well some of the evidence and there's that carving in Cambodia they found about 7 -800 years old that shows a beautiful rendition of a stegosaurus and above it is a monkey and a lion below it you know real animals that we can still identify today but there's this one that looks just like a stegosaurus right in the middle of all those and so there's a lot of carvings and what's amazing, what makes a dinosaur different than lizards and reptiles today is that dinosaurs walked erect, their legs came down from their body and so their bodies were held aloft above them, they didn't drag their bellies like crocodiles and turtles and stuff do and we see these paintings these carvings showing the legs coming straight down, so they how would they have known this back 2 ,000 years ago when the

01:21:27

Egyptians were carving these things or when people are painting these across Europe and these little carvings that we see over and over and over, but yet all this evidence is disregarded because it doesn't go with the narrative that the secular scientists want to tell you why is that so strange to them if they even admit if I'm not mistaken that even crocodiles are that ancient, are that go back that far in history along with the dinosaurs now if something could have lived with the dinosaurs and exists today why would it be so strange that dinosaurs coexisted with men well it really isn't because it's very possible that dinosaurs did live

01:22:13

No, what I mean is it's strange to the secular scientists. No, it shouldn't be it shouldn't be, but they made out such a stigma about them that they went extinct a million years ago that they hardly can even get that thought in their minds it seems like, but I used to tell my secular college students that it wouldn't surprise me if they did find a dinosaur somewhere in the

01:22:33

Congo or somewhere down there, still alive today maybe not a big one, but a little one because we find living fossils all the time, things like the coelacanth that were found in the 1930s in the

01:22:43

Indian Ocean they were supposed to be extinct same time as the dinosaurs and yet we see the same animals swimming around the oceans today at great depth, 500 feet down or so but we find again and again and again we have these living fossils, like you mentioned crocodiles if we didn't find crocodiles until just recently in the world we would have thought they were extinct at the time of the dinosaurs as well, just like you said we find them with dinosaurs and rocks below dinosaur layers, so it's really not a big surprise that if we would have found a dinosaur, we still could

01:23:12

I mean I highly doubt it because we've pretty much explored everywhere on the Earth but there could have been a small dinosaur still could be somewhere in these areas that are very highly unpopulated by humans or untraveled by humans as well, so it really shouldn't be a surprise knowing the track record of us finding animals that we thought were extinct and yet they're still alive today, even though there's no fossil record of them

01:23:39

I did get a chance to ask on that note, Stephen Jay Gould one time he spoke at Western Michigan University and I asked him afterwards in front of the audience,

01:23:48

I said how do you explain living fossils, how do you explain these animals, like the coelacanth that we finally find, supposed to be extinct 66 million years ago and now we see them still living today with no fossils in between, there's no record these things existed for 60 million years or more and we see this in many cases he said well that's a big problem in evolution next question and so they don't have an answer for the living fossils that we find

01:24:14

I used to tell my students, tongue in cheek somewhat, that the Flintstones are the most accurate you know, movie or show about dinosaurs out there, because they're showing dinosaurs and humans living at the same time but I believe in the pre -flood world they lived in separate areas and that's what we don't really see, just like the camels and the horses and the lions and the tigers and the bears are all found at a different level in the rock record in the flood because they lived at higher elevations and I think the dinosaurs lived in swampy lowland areas and they were buried a little bit earlier than most of the common mammals that we see today.

01:24:45

There's mammals with the dinosaurs, but there are things like beaver -like animals and squirrel -like animals things that lived in wetlands and they're not as big, but if you want to argue why aren't there humans or dinosaurs, why aren't there camels and horses and cows and pigs and lions, tigers and bears and that whole story none of those are found with dinosaurs they're all found above the dinosaurs in the rock record.

01:25:09

So I believe they lived at the same time in the pre -flood world, but just separate areas separated enough by elevation, just a few thousand feet maybe, to make a big difference in the rock record.

01:25:20

But we do see a lot of evidence in carvings and paintings, you know, carvings on rocks across the

01:25:26

American West, all over the world, paintings across Europe, you know, ancient Egypt paintings and carvings of things that look identical to what we are finding in the rock record as dinosaurs.

01:25:38

But remember, we only found dinosaurs as a group and named them in 1841 and so we don't use the word dinosaur in the

01:25:45

Bible because it wasn't invented until after it was translated into English and so people wonder, well, how come they don't mention dinosaurs?

01:25:51

Well, dinosaurs were on the Ark because God said to take two of every kind and dinosaurs got off the

01:25:57

Ark and that's where we have the most evidence is the interaction of humans and dinosaurs after the flood.

01:26:04

God really, literally, like he says, wiped out the evidence of human civilization right down to the crust in many cases of where the humans were probably living in the pre -flood world.

01:26:14

But, you know, there is evidence afterwards that dinosaurs and humans interacted for many, many centuries up until probably maybe five, six hundred years ago.

01:26:24

By the way, Joey, you have won a free copy of this monumental massive hardcover book, gorgeous book,

01:26:34

Carved in Stone, Geologic Evidence of the Worldwide Flood by our guest,

01:26:40

Tim Clary. And so, please give us your full mailing address.

01:26:46

In fact, I think you are a first time questioner, if I'm not mistaken. So, you're also going to win a

01:26:54

New American Standard Bible. So, make sure you give us your full mailing address so that CVBBS .com,

01:27:01

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship those out to you at no cost to you or to us.

01:27:07

And we want to thank our guest today, Dr. Tim Clary, for being so generous in providing these free copies of Carved in Stone for us to give to our listeners, a limited number, of course.

01:27:21

But, thank you so much for joining us for the first time, and keep listening to Iron Sherp and Zion Radio.

01:27:28

We have somebody who is no stranger to this program, because he not only listens to it, but he is also a guest on occasion, and he's been a co -host.

01:27:38

He is a former colleague of Kem Ham, and who is probably the most world -renowned

01:27:47

Young Earth Creationist alive today. And I'm speaking of Kem Ham, of course.

01:27:52

Charlie wishes he was that famous. But, Charlie Lieber, who is the founder and director of 6daycreation .com

01:28:05

6daycreation .com 6daycreation .com And, Charlie has a question. He says, early in the show, you talked about tissue found in fossils.

01:28:15

Scientists reject it because of their presuppositions. Obviously, he's talking about secular scientists.

01:28:22

Comment on the state of science when they don't follow the evidence. And we did discuss that, probably in more detail the first time that we had you on the air,

01:28:32

Dr. Clary, and we I think we discussed it a little bit as well today, but if you could perhaps expand a little further on that.

01:28:40

Okay, well, unfortunately, I think in the last 50, 60 years, maybe even 100 years, people have gone through that whole,

01:28:47

I talked about earlier, that whole idea that they're just verifying what they believe they already know. And I call that verification science.

01:28:54

And I actually got that term from a secular scientist, Dr. Alan Fadusha, because he's fighting back against the dinosaurs being birds and these feathered dinosaurs being feathered and all that kind of stuff.

01:29:05

He says these are actually birds. He's a bird paleontologist, and so he I don't want to steal his thunder.

01:29:11

He came up with that term. But he's sort of being persecuted because he's not following consensus.

01:29:18

And unfortunately, science today is being driven by the force to be in consensus.

01:29:26

You must be in consensus. You must be in consensus. And I even see that a little bit in the creation science community itself.

01:29:32

Some of the findings that I'm digging through as I follow the data, that's what we should be doing as scientists. We should be following data, collecting data, following the data, see what the data shows, not having those presuppositions already have our minds made up.

01:29:45

And unfortunately, science has been overhauled by secular humanistic ideas, whether they like it or not.

01:29:53

There's a lot of well -meaning scientists out there. They're not all trying to create hoaxes. They're not trying to create fake things.

01:29:59

They're trying to collect data. But unfortunately, most of them are not doing the scientific method the way we should be doing it.

01:30:06

We're collecting data, and then coming up with a hypothesis to explain it. We actually have the hypothesis.

01:30:13

We have the theories. They're also trying to prove those theories. And that's kind of backwards to the science to be done.

01:30:19

When I started this project, not to brag or anything, not to say, oh, Claire, you did good, but I think it's

01:30:27

God's hand that did all the work. I was just his vessel to do what I've done so far, and I'm still trying to finish the world.

01:30:34

But what we tried to do was just say, okay, let's look at the rocks. Let's just start mapping out the rocks across the continent. We started with North America.

01:30:41

Looking at the columns, the stratigraphic columns, we called what sediments are there at this location, what sediments at this location, this location.

01:30:48

We ended up with hundreds of locations across North America. We went to South America. We went to Central America. We went to Africa.

01:30:54

And those were the three continents where I started to see these patterns. But I was following the data. I didn't know where the data was really going to lead.

01:31:01

I said, let's just map out what we have. Put them into a 3D database. And the computer worked out really nice.

01:31:07

But what do the rocks really show? And that's where I came up with my conclusion, that in science, we really should be looking for patterns in data.

01:31:16

We should be in tune enough. And it's a struggle as a geologist because you're taught so many dogmas.

01:31:23

You're taught the millions and millions of years. You're taught, look for environments of deposition. Look for this.

01:31:29

Look for that. You're taught to think about everything in a uniformitarian style. And it's difficult to break out of that mold.

01:31:38

And I struggle with that even today, trying to make sure that I'm not thinking like a uniformitarian scientist would, but just trying to follow the data.

01:31:46

And I think I've tried to do that as best I could in my book, Carved in Stone. Can you repeat that word that you just used?

01:31:51

Did you say uniformitarian? Yeah, uniformitarianism, which is a big, long

01:31:57

English word that means everything's uniform. You know, that things have always been the same rates we see today. For example, the plates are moving a couple inches per year today.

01:32:05

Well, they think, well, we'll project that back for millions of years. Or the decay rates we see today in radioactive elements have always been the same.

01:32:12

They project those back for millions or billions of years. So I just, you know, the process that we see today, the idea that there's always been volcanoes, there's always been rivers.

01:32:21

And in fact, you know, in some cases there were, but many of these formed exclusively during the flood.

01:32:26

Many of the volcanoes formed from the ground up during the flood year or shortly thereafter. And so we've got to think outside the box of just everything being the same rates and processes we see today because that won't lead to a flood.

01:32:40

That'll lead to millions and billions of years. And unfortunately, that's the model that we're taught as geologists. And so there's so many older geologists out there.

01:32:48

You know, Christian geologists, they're older, and they just can't let go because they can't think beyond what they've been taught.

01:32:54

And the consensus idea that, well, all the scientists believe this. If you're a real scientist, you'll believe the

01:33:00

Earth is billions of years old. How can you believe that young Earth nonsense? But the evidence keeps coming up again and again and again.

01:33:07

That original tissues we're finding, the subducted slabs that go down deep into the

01:33:12

Earth all the way down to the core, they're still cold. How can these slabs, if they went down over millions of years, still be cold all the way down to the core?

01:33:19

They should have heated up. We shouldn't see this big contrast in temperature that we see.

01:33:25

And so there's all these lines of evidence which I try to explain and show in my book. There really is a lot of evidence for a young Earth and a recent flood and a global flood at that.

01:33:36

But it's a difficult thing, and there's so many geologists out there that this book is written kind of for them in a lot of ways.

01:33:44

But it's to also affirm people's faith that there really was the truth to the Bible. There really was a global flood.

01:33:50

And it really did happen just thousands of years ago. If you want to see the evidence, I try to put it out there in a very understandable way.

01:33:57

The middle chapters get a little data -heavy because I show here's North America, here's South America, here's Africa.

01:34:03

As we progress through the flood. But eventually I kind of tie it all together at the end. And ultimately, the goal is to lead people to Christ.

01:34:11

And that's what I point out at the end. All this leads to Christ. Christ was there at the creation. He was there at the flood. He provided a way out for humans that believed there was going to be a flood.

01:34:19

You said to walk through the door of the ark, and you were saved. And Christ himself finally came as the ultimate sacrifice for humanity.

01:34:26

He loved us that much. God himself took on human form, which we're going to celebrate here in about a month.

01:34:31

His birthday, or Christmas. To show that God loves us that much.

01:34:37

He provided the way out of the death that we all deserve. The death for our sins that we've all committed.

01:34:42

But he allows us that grace that he's given us. Like it says in Ephesians 2. We're saved by grace.

01:34:49

By the grace of God. He has given us that salvation opportunity if we just come to him.

01:34:56

Well, Charlie, thank you so much for your question. And you have won a free copy of Carved in Stone Geologic Evidence of the

01:35:04

Worldwide Flood. And since I know that you happen to live very close to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CBBBS .com,

01:35:14

why don't you stop there tomorrow and tell the new owner,

01:35:20

Ben Knurr, that you're there to pick up a copy of Carved in Stone because you won it on Iron Trump and Zion Radio today.

01:35:28

So, thanks a lot for being such a faithful listener and also a wonderful guest and co -host on occasion, brother.

01:35:39

Look forward to having you back on the program. And by the way, if anybody wants to find out more about Charlie's ministry, go to sixdaycreation .com

01:35:50

sixdaycreation .com and the word six is spelled out, S -I -X. Let's see here.

01:35:58

We have JB from Western Suffolk County, Long Island.

01:36:07

And JB says, have there ever been any scientific discoveries that disproved a biblical teaching, or at least the way a dominant teaching was interpreted for centuries?

01:36:25

Well, that's kind of a tough question in a lot of ways. It depends on, I don't know, what direction he really wants to go with that.

01:36:32

But there really hasn't been. I mean, there's been nothing discovered that hasn't been shown not to fit the

01:36:38

Bible. I mean, everything confirms exactly with what the Bible says. There was a global flood of talks about that, and we see the evidence of it.

01:36:46

Recently, a thousand years ago, we see evidence of that. Other people try to interpret things differently, completely differently, but it's all, some of it's a matter of interpretation.

01:36:57

And how do you want to, you know, what is your presuppositions as the word goes? You know, what are you bringing into this debate or into this discussion?

01:37:07

Are you coming in with an open mind, or do you already have your mind taught by the colleges and the high schools, the public schools you've gone to, and even some

01:37:16

Christian schools, many of them are teaching evolution as well. Unfortunately, there's very few that hold to the six -day creation, young earth,

01:37:24

I guess, stance at this day and age. Are you speaking of evangelical, when you say schools, are you talking about grammar schools, high schools, are you speaking of seminaries?

01:37:38

I know that the mainline A lot of the seminaries have gone older, you know, I think, unfortunately, and a lot of the, what used to be like schools, like for example,

01:37:47

Baylor University was a Baptist school, but they teach evolution like it's, you know, just like you'd learn at a public institution, like when

01:37:55

I went to Western Michigan University or University of Wyoming. They just teach Darwinian evolution.

01:38:02

Most Christian schools actually do teach Darwinian evolution, and they may hold to the old earth style of geology, for example, but they'll still teach evolution.

01:38:17

And so many of the schools really do have totally compromised, for lack of a better word, and have just gone with the consensus science that's out there, which again, consensus science is not science.

01:38:29

And you stop questioning things, stop looking into things, and you can't just go along because most people say this, most people say that, that's, you know, the just because most people agree on something doesn't make it right.

01:38:41

Only God's word is true, and to my knowledge there's been nothing that's been discovered that disproves

01:38:47

God's word archaeologically and or geologically or any other scientific matter for that.

01:38:54

Sometimes we've thought this does this or this does this, but then on second thought we come back and realize, okay, the

01:39:00

Bible was right all along. Now one quick example of that is, in the Bible it talks about, in the book of Job, well,

01:39:06

B .M .S. ate grass like an ox, and so that was scoffed at for many years. Dinosaurs didn't eat grass, grass supposedly didn't evolve until after the dinosaurs were extinct.

01:39:17

Well, in fact, in 2005 they found five species of grasses in the dinosaur dung.

01:39:23

All these long -necked dinosaurs found in those same rock layers, the sauropods, just exactly what B .M .S. is describing, an animal that has the tail like a feeder and a big long neck and a bit, you know, it ate grass, and it actually did eat grass.

01:39:35

And so we just, grass was hard to fossilize, but in dinosaur dung, like horse dung, you can kind of see what the animal ate, and they were able to see these different species of grass.

01:39:45

So for a while people scoffed at that, and, but everything holds true to God's word. God's word is true.

01:39:52

There's no scientific discovery that disproves God's word. Wow, that was a first.

01:39:57

I never knew that scientists ever dismissed the existence of grass in the same age of the dinosaurs roaming the earth.

01:40:07

That's pretty... Yeah, it wasn't supposed to appear until later, and then they, so they would do all their paintings and their drawings, you look at all the old drawings, there's no grass in there.

01:40:16

Huh, never noticed. Well, we've got to go to our final break right now, and if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, please send in your question immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:40:30

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:40:40

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:50:33

We have an anonymous listener for you, Dr. Clary. And the anonymous listener says,

01:50:39

I'm writing this question anonymously because I'm basically too embarrassed to ask it publicly. The listener says, what is your opinion of the

01:50:51

Loch Ness Monster? I happen to think that it is very plausible for this creature to exist, especially since for centuries there have been so many reports of its existence, and that would obviously give more evidence to the fact that dinosaurs never ceased completely to live with men, since this is a creature that apparently is still alive in the 21st century.

01:51:18

Okay. I actually have been over to Loch Ness on one of my travels with college students. But let me start first by saying that a swimming reptile would not be technically a dinosaur.

01:51:28

But I understand what you're saying. They're found in rocks about the same time. No, I'm sorry. Can you repeat what you just said about it's not a dinosaur?

01:51:35

What's not a dinosaur? It's not technically a dinosaur because it doesn't walk with legs erect from its body. Oh, you're talking about the

01:51:42

Loch Ness Monster. Right. The Loch Ness Monster would have had, maybe people think it might have been like a swimming reptile of some sort with, you know, flippers.

01:51:51

I always thought it looked kind of like a brontosaurus myself. Well, if it walked on land, then it could have been a dinosaur.

01:51:58

But I'm not sure if there's anything there today. There might have been something. I don't know. There hasn't been any scientific evidence that they've been able to come up with to verify this other than reported sightings.

01:52:10

So I'm on the skeptical side. You know, I like to see data. I like to see, you know, evidence, whether it's bones or, you know, rocks or something.

01:52:20

And in this case, I don't see that. But it's entirely possible there was something there. And if it was there, it may not be there today, it might have already died.

01:52:29

And that's why we don't see many sightings anymore. Maybe they're just in the past. I don't know. Tough question.

01:52:35

I'm a little skeptical about the whole thing. But if it was in the water and swimming around, it wouldn't have been a dinosaur, it would have been a swimming reptile, like a plesiosaur or something like that, if anything.

01:52:47

But yeah, I don't think it's, you know. So a plesiosaur is not considered a dinosaur?

01:52:55

No. Mosasaurus, things that swim in the, you find them in the same rocks because the waves of the flood were bringing in these marine animals like ichthyosaurs, the swimming reptiles, and they look like porpoises and things that are being washed in very, very rapidly.

01:53:09

Because we see the live birth of an ichthyosaur in a couple of cases. You can see when these animals were giving birth, you know, underwater, at the time they were buried and completely, you know, rapid burial was so fast and dramatic that they were called life assemblages.

01:53:26

These animals were preserved completely in doing something that they did in nature.

01:53:32

Or maybe the burial caused the animals to give birth. It's hard to say. But nonetheless, you know, they're completely there.

01:53:39

And whether the Loch Ness Monster was something like that, I don't know. I mean, I don't, like I said, I went to the museum over there and we looked around at what they, you know, the claims and it didn't look like it was anything concrete.

01:53:52

But you never know. Well, Anonymous, if you give us your full name and address, obviously, confidentially,

01:54:02

I'm not going to divulge it on the air. You have also won a free copy of Carved in Stone by Dr.

01:54:08

Tim Clary, and we thank CVBBS .com for shipping it out to you, and no charge to you or to us.

01:54:14

And we also thank Dr. Clary for providing us with these books. I'd like you now to cover some area before we go off the air again.

01:54:25

I hope that you can cover some area that you haven't touched on during our last interview or today.

01:54:34

Okay, well, maybe the Ice Age. How about that? The Ice Age was there. We mentioned it a little bit. The Ice Age was,

01:54:40

I think, there was one Ice Age. There wasn't these four or five Ice Ages that people try to put in the geologic record.

01:54:46

I think the Ice Age was very, very important. God had a plan after the Flood to get the animals back to all these different continents.

01:54:53

He didn't get humans back to all these continents. And his plan was to bring out an Ice Age through the conditions of the

01:54:59

Flood. He had a lot of volcanic activity that I'm showing on my rock evidence that peaked at the end of the

01:55:05

Flood, peaked in the Cenozoic, or what I call a chaos megasequence, late in the Flood, when the

01:55:10

Flood was probably receding. And there was all these volcanoes that were going off, like Yellowstone and the Cascades, erupting and building these big mountains, volcanic mountains all over the world, putting ash up into the sky again and again and again and again for several hundred years.

01:55:23

And that would cool the Earth by blocking out some sun like volcanoes still do today. But now we just get an eruption maybe every decade that cools the

01:55:31

Earth for a year or two, and then it goes away. At the end of the Flood, we have this peak in volcanic activity set up by the catastrophic plate tectonic movement that took place.

01:55:41

All the subduction was taking place. All these melts were occurring. All these volcanoes were going off, cooling the Earth. And then also the oceans were very hot because you made a completely new ocean floor through catastrophic plate tectonics.

01:55:52

All the ocean floor was lava poured out of these ridges, and the ocean and the continents spread apart very rapidly during the year of the

01:55:58

Flood. So you heat the water with all this new lava at its base. The water was maybe 20 degrees or possibly even warmer.

01:56:06

20 or 30 degrees Celsius hotter than it is today. It's close to zero degrees Celsius, which is 32 degrees

01:56:13

Fahrenheit. And so it's much hotter, hotter water, more evaporation. So there's a lot more rain coming down.

01:56:19

And in the north, because of the effects of the volcanoes, it was coming down as snow. And within about 200 years after the

01:56:25

Flood, you can have a full -fledged ice age going on where you have massive ice sheets that are a mile thick. Long Island where you live was actually a glacial moraine.

01:56:33

It was the end of where the glaciers stopped and dumped a lot of their material. A glacier what? The glacial moraine.

01:56:40

How do you spell that? A big M -O -R -A -I -N -E. And what is that?

01:56:46

That's where the glaciers stopped. In that case, I think it's the terminal moraine. It's as far south as the glaciers moved, and they dumped a bunch of rock and debris there, enough to build a big mound that makes up Long Island.

01:56:59

And when the sea level rose again after the ice age ended, the ice age only lasted about maybe 500 to 700 years.

01:57:06

It came and went. But the timing of that ice age was perfect. It allowed land bridges to form so animals could walk across from the location where the ark landed in Turkey, somewhere around eastern

01:57:17

Turkey. Animals and humans could walk right across the Bering Sea while it was dry, and the water was warm enough to keep the ice further inland so they could actually walk along.

01:57:28

And there's barefoot ice age footprints all along Vancouver Island that they found where the humans were walking along.

01:57:34

The water was still so warm at that point when they were following the animals that they could walk barefoot.

01:57:39

Even though there was an ice age maybe 100 miles inland, there was a bunch of ice. But the whole world was wetter. And even though there was no

01:57:46

Sahara Desert, Egypt was establishing their civilization in a much wetter and cooler climate.

01:57:53

Even though the ice was to the north in Europe, the ice was to the north in North America, there were still very wet areas all over the world because the oceans took centuries and centuries to kind of cool down to where they are today after the flood.

01:58:05

And the volcanoes finally stopped erupting as much, just a few here and there now, and so the cooling effect disappeared as well.

01:58:12

And so once the ice formed, all these areas in the northern hemisphere mostly, some in the southern hemisphere, but it only can build up on land.

01:58:20

So there's a lot more land in the north, that's why the ice age mostly affected the north. That ice age was a very important ending to the flood.

01:58:26

You know, God had a plan. Even through the chaos of the flood, he had a plan to bring humans back and spread and cover the earth again, to bring animals on every continent once again, without having to float across the ocean or take a boat.

01:58:38

He had ready -made land bridges that were only temporary, just a few hundred years long. And what were humans doing?

01:58:44

They were disobeying and staying at the Tower of Babel. They were spreading out like God's plan was to spread and fill the earth.

01:58:51

So God had to step in, confound the land bridges, get all these people to spread out all over the earth at the right time when the land bridges would be there.

01:58:59

A few hundred years later, the land bridges were gone once the ice age ends, sea level rises again, floods all these areas, separates

01:59:06

Long Island from New York. It's now an island. It's just the river that sticks up through the ocean now.

01:59:13

Chesapeake Bay is flooded. It was a river, now it's the bay. All these areas, sea level rose several hundred feet after the ice age ended.

01:59:20

Well, we are out of time. When we have you back to talk about dinosaurs, maybe you can also include some of the things that you didn't have time to say today.

01:59:29

And I want to make sure that our listeners have your website icr .org, icr .org.

01:59:36

I want to thank you so much for once again being a superb guest. I want to thank everybody for listening. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

01:59:45

Savior than you are a sinner. Amen. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, brother.