July 15, 2021 Show with Kenneth R. Samples on “Christianity Cross-Examined” (Part 2)

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 15th day of July 2021.

And for those of you who yesterday heard a program that was part one of a discussion that we actually began weeks ago on Christianity cross-examined is it rational relevant and good. That was a rerun we were airing yesterday on July 14th and so today if indeed you are listening on July 15th this is not a rerun it may be a rerun at some other date but if you're listening on Thursday July 15th this is a live broadcast and it's part two of that very discussion that we aired as a rerun yesterday.

Christianity cross-examined this is part two of that discussion and that is the title of Ken Samples' new book and Kenneth R. Samples is a former panelist on the Bible Answer Man. He is a reformed Anglican theologian he's an author and currently the senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio my dear old friend Kenneth R. Samples.

Chris it's good to talk with you again. I enjoy our discussion. Oh it is my pleasure brother and.

I really thoroughly enjoyed our previous discussion on Christianity cross-examined is it rational relevant and good. And the last time we discussed your book on the air we got very thoroughly involved in addressing.

Is it rational and relevant. But probably the most important part is it good. We had very little time to address at the end because we had already nearly completely run out of time and only had a couple of minutes to squeeze in that very prominent and vital aspect of Christianity cross-examined.

In fact before we go to the topic that we really did not adequately address last time is Christianity good. Tell us perhaps a summary or a recap of Christianity. Christianity cross-examined why you wrote the book.

And perhaps a little bit of what we covered when it comes to Christianity.

Being rational and relevant. You know when I was hosting the Bible Answer Man when I was one of the panelists back in the early 19th when I would go to a college or university students were asking me almost exist.

I noticed about 10 or 15 years ago and I've this is my 25th year working it I noticed about a decade or so ago that when RTB would send me to a couple students were asking different questions. I still got occasional truth questions but they asked me a lot of questions about whether Christianity was actually a Christianity been good for women.

Has Christianity been good for racial minorities. What about the God of the Old Testament. Is he a God of wrath. And how does that for myself. Chris that I wonder if I'm seeing a shift that was an era where truth question.

And so I thought to myself you know maybe in this apologetic book with truth questions or whether Christian is it logically relevant so I look at them about on whether Christianity has been. I think if there is a distinctive feature of this book I think it's setting it up that way.

And by the way I might I might tell you that I have interacted with atheists and this is kind of a in the introduction of the book is now I'm not sure that every atheist would fit in one of these two categories but I know that some do one atheist might reason this way.

Chris they may say look maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea if God exists by the death of my body. Maybe I would be reunited with my loved ones. But the problem is Christianity is just not rational. It's not something I can I can in good conscience rationally believe.

Now I don't know if the atheist Graham Oppie fits that category but he might he's a leading academic atheist. Now there's another type of atheist. The other type of atheist says something like this. Oh no there's arguments for God and there's arguments for Christianity and some of the people who make them are pretty sharp reasonable people.

But the fact is I don't want that God to exist. I don't want that God intruding into my life pushing his his moral dictates. I think Thomas Nagel the New York philosopher of mine New York University fits really well into that category.

Now again I'm not saying all atheists are in those camps. I've heard a my problem is Islam is I just I don't want that kind of God to exist. I can't see that God is a as a moral being. So I kind of unveil up that in my new book means questions that skeptical people really ask.

And I try to quote as far as the relevancy of.

Christianity. If you want to give a very brief overview of what we've already addressed.

Yeah I think that you know Christianity speaks in I think the most relevant way possible it speaks to the human condition. I mean one of the reasons notes are are brokenness 20 evidences for that. If if that's if that's the case all of us are going to die conquer death then you need to know it.

So I think Christianity is quite relevant in its application. Of course people may wrongly and.

Many many many unfortunately many many many people do they will react to the Bible and say it is not relevant because look at the condemnations they have against homosexuality and look at the roles the specific roles they have for men and women in certain areas of life.

These these things are outdated. Well that's because the majority of humans have changed. That doesn't mean truth has changed just because the world has become more or the population of the world has become increasingly more selfish and demanding that they write the rules.

And that many things that the Bible commanded or prohibited just because those things are either rejected or embraced. Rejected if they were commands of God and embrace if they were things that God condemns as wicked just because humans in a greater majority have responded that way doesn't mean that it's.

The problem is with the Bible. The problem is with.

Humans right. Let me give you a powerful contrast which i think it is. Um i watched a lot of uh the late Christopher Hitchens yes uh journalist articulate wrote a great said that you can never be alone you can never be free intruding on your space.

I contrast that Saint Augustine said your name even when you are even when you're closer to God is close contrast the God's. But where's Augustine's. Right there reaching out to you. I thought wow what a power.

And yeah.

Isn't it interesting that when the Lord is softening the heart of someone that was lost or just simply in regard to somebody who is already born again that the Bible is so relevant and always has been ever since God gifted it to his people.

Uh you you will see how the Bible speaks to you personally even though written thousands of years ago uh. And that is unlike uh culture uh when you see old movies when you see uh or even read secular literature there is a stark contrast typically from yesterday uh from what we uh experienced today.

And sometimes we laugh at things how they change but the word with the word of God. And even uh biblically faithful Christians who have written uh valuable volumes for us to bless the church of all ages when you read the Puritans when you read uh even further back the writings of the Reformers how they strike a chord uh even though some of the language if the if the edition of whatever it is you're reading has not been updated in modern English even if some of the phraseology and the wording and so forth may be a bit antiquated the content and.

Message hits right on and strikes a chord as if it was written yesterday and powerfully in the case of two brothers in the and God yes it was such a shame that uh after Christopher Hitchens accepted.

My invitation to debate James White. And uh I was so looking forward to witnessing that exchange between two great minds on opposite ends of the spectrum. When it comes to ideology uh it was such a shame that uh he had to cancel because of his uh developing and being diagnosed with esophageal cancer which eventually took his life.

But uh I uh had the posters all printed up oh wow and was was getting ready uh had already begun actually to promote the event and just tragically it never came to be. Yeah uh. Well uh Christianity is good or if you want to put it in a question form as your as your subtitle does.

Is Christianity good. Uh as you just hinted at uh there are many people who do not think Christianity is good. They think that it has been of great harm to humanity whether it is uh due to the oppression of people because of their skin color their ethnicity uh that is in their minds and what they have been brainwashed to believe in our modern education system.

They think that Christianity has been a horrible thing uh for humanity. A horrible thing for the oppression of women and a horrible thing for the oppression of those with different sexual preferences.

Or I don't even know if that is an acceptable way to phrase it today. They the the left changes the dictionary so often I don't know if I'm up to date with with what they demand although I really don't care if I'm up to date with what they demand uh.

But uh so obviously you are a Christian uh you obviously believe Christianity is good. And if you could start explaining some reasons why uh even uh on the basis of how humanity has been helped obviously only God can determine and define what is good and what is evil and in all truth.

But there are even ways that there have been orthodox Jews and even atheists and people of other religions who have come to recognize. I know that I personally have benefited enormously incalculably. Uh and my ancestors and uh those that would share my heritage have benefited greatly from Christianity's existence even though I and my people as it were do not share that religion.

I have even heard orthodox Jews and others make statements like that. So tell us so yeah how do.

You respond to that question. Is Christianity. Good. Yeah. I think it's a fair question. I don't begrudge anybody we've got. Let me talk first of all about uh Chris. Science began one time. What's interesting.

Of course when I was growing up I was told that they weren't nearly as dark as what. Not to say that the Chinese algebra is an Arabic word sexual firepower. The educational system uh came out of. So many of the great can also talk about some of the social suggested and preoccupied with those topics of largely abolitionists viewed the Bible as teaching the fundamental principle that people are made in the image of God and that abolition of slavery headed by people who are secularists.

If you if you deny that the world is created we could also talk about law and government. The idea of of rights not coming from government but coming from God and the idea that people again have some people have said of John Calvin.

And by the way I think Calvin is probably the most idea of liberty. Calvin's ideas had a strong influence on some historians would say for example it's hard to imagine America without the problem. We could also talk about charity and philanthropy.

You know when I was a kid I'd see these trucks drive through the neighborhood. You know I would see salvation in the ancient world. Chris there was a treat. And God again and again in the old testament tells the foreigners that created orphanages.

It was Christian development that there are people suffering. They couldn't be cured but they could be a Christianity doesn't mean there aren't. Some areas are dealing with fallen broken reject. But all in all Christianity is not recognized in my mind for the enormous benevolence that it's brought to people on planet earth.

In fact I think.

You brought up something very important about things done in the name of Christ because not everything done in the name of Christ is of Christ so right and we will pick up on that when we return from our first break.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA don't go away we'll be right back with Ken. Samples and part two of our discussion on his new book Christianity cross-examined.

Hello dear ones. My name is Justin Peters and my friend Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the United States.

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The Historical Goodness of Christianity in Society

Welcome back. This is chris armson if you just tuned us in. Our guest today for the entire program is kenneth r. Samples. This is part two of a discussion that we aired that we began a number of weeks ago and aired a rerun of yesterday.

Christianity cross examined. Is it rational relevant and good. If you have a question our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnzen at gmail .com. As always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the usa.

Now uh opponents of christianity critics skeptics uh they will often bring up things that professing christians have done throughout history and lay the charge at christianity itself as being the root and the blame for these evils.

Like chattel slavery is probably the most often repeated thing because there were admittedly many christians even christians that we agree with theologically and agree with on a host of other issues who promoted slavery.

The southern baptist convention at one time was a predominantly calvinist institution and it promoted the the institution as it were of slavery uh and having said that we we must also remember that the reformed presbyterian church was the first denomination uh to openly uh oppose slavery and conduct integrated worship services and bible studies and so on.

Uh but uh the fact of the matter is that these christians who promoted and participated in and even fought for things that we recognize today as being horrific and evil and wicked and even satanic like chattel slavery uh this was never something that was promoted in the word of god as something that god was with which god was pleased or that god commanded aren't people very often confusing because of the word being used slavery uh the the fact that uh god's people throughout the ages uh did have uh enslavement of prisoners of war uh people who actually sold themselves into slavery because they could not pay debts.

And there are a host of other reasons why god's people participated in slavery that had nothing to do with the kind of chattel slavery that was known in england and other parts of europe and america that that in fact had a very crucial element in it uh the the type of slavery that was practiced in the united states which was a crucial element of the reason the civil war was fought uh that that that that crucial element involved something that was so evil in the scriptures that god commanded the death penalty for doing it and that is man stealing uh stealing a man and selling him was a sin punishable by death and that was a crucial element in the uh in the way that slaves initially found themselves on the shores of america and other parts of the world where slavery was.

Practiced am i right. Yeah that's exactly right. And i i think you're these critics they think of the antebellum. Thought it makes me terrible evil that it that it was and is there are still people today that are.

It makes me think that slavery was not just an american problem or even a caucasian problem. Slavery seems to be a fundamental human problem. Still goes on where.

Blacks and slave blacks in the sudan and other parts of africa and the world. This is exactly.

Right. And uh what you have in the old testament is by and large indentured servitude. And even the more difficult issues of israel taking foreign slaves in battle. Uh remember that yahweh reminds the jews again and again don't treat the way the egyptians treated you.

And so there are principles in the in the torah in the mosaic code. What are we to say about these kinds of things. I completely agree. I mean i think jonathan edwards is arguably the greatest. And yet while his son and uh close associate in ministry were abolitionists battling against slavery edwards in our modern day is a lot of people think if they were placed back and up i would tell you that um you know christians are not without blind spots and everything has not been.

Let me tell you this that the old testament set down and in the new testament in galatians 3 verse 28 this revelatory statement by the apostle paul note in the christian church no difference between jew gentile slave free are one incredible primitive christian church.

You people who were and then you had slave. I think i think again um what ultimately ended and made illegal slavery in europe and america. And could i say because i think our country gets a lot of criticism these days.

I know my family came from west virginia. I know that west virginia was very proud that these against the thought of war over these kinds of issues. So yeah history is messy. Um but i think that we also need to factor this in chris that god has a in philosophy we talk about atelios a purpose.

I'm old enough to remember martin luther king preaching during the civil rights movement. And he says that the arc of history is long but it tends toward justice. Formed anglican i say amen is sovereign.

And he has a purpose even in corrupted history to bring about his purposes. And uh i think christianity uh by and large. In fact it's interesting you.

Uh brought up the fact that you are a reformed anglican and the church of england is a very vivid example of uh god using uh history uh to bring about the fulfillment of a plan. And even though the church of england involved a very wicked king henry the eighth who uh his archbishop thomas cranmer didn't even believe his friend henry was regenerate until uh henry's deathbed uh where cranmer said if you believe in justification by faith alone squeeze my hand.

And he did. Because a lot of people don't realize even though uh henry uh helped to launch the church of england's protestant identity he he remained theologically roman catholic. Um but in spite of this wicked king being involved in the genesis of the church many fine and biblically faithful and christ loving men and women and children rose up out.

Of that that spread the true gospel. Am i right. Absolutely. And you know when you when you think about history again i come back to this. This idea of you know england had a lot of power and sometimes they use that power to oppress people.

They also spread other things like the bible like democracy. Like you think of those kinds of issues. And you have people coming out of the church of england again uh wilberforce in in in europe and again in america.

You look these you took these issues seriously and so i i think to blame i think reflects a poor understanding of.

And even in the east and it's oh it's also interesting how people view uh themselves so highly that they believe if they were born and raised in an era let's say in the united states prior to the civil war where slavery had already been an established institution for centuries they think they could have so easily flipped a switch and that slaves would be free and safe immediately.

Uh you know for people who have that uh insanely high and narcissistic view of themselves uh people very often who reject uh original sin and total depravity they view the same uh they view the garden in the same way.

They uh say that if they were adam or eve they never would have fallen for satan's seduction. So therefore they uh believe that it is insane. And it's ridiculous for mankind to have bore the the curse of adam and eve's sin because i would have done better.

And isn't this. Isn't this the height of pride really. And i think chris if you.

Look at history and you see the brokenness of humanity. You see the fallenness of humanity. You see the doctrine of original sin. Remember that's the bible is diagnosing humans that way and it's you know islam denies original sin.

Uh eastern orthodoxy has difficulty. It is fallen in adam sin nature. So you know if you're troubled by hypocrisy and i am as well if you're troubled by the fold remember that one of the fundamental teachings of scripture are uh is that human beings are are sinful.

And chris i love it that in in philippians 2 this this ancient colossian uh to the philippian epistle it says that jesus didn't hold on to his privileged position on our behalf. I think that's incredibly powerful.

And i think that that's why two of the largest people groups to join christianity at the earliest point in its development slaves they heard something in jesus of nazareth. They they saw something in him that they didn't find in fine.

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Matter. We'll be right back with ken samples right after these messages. Hi. I'm phil johnson host and executive director of grace to you the media ministry of john macarthur. I hope you plan to join me and chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio for the g3 conference in atlanta georgia thursday september 30th through saturday october 2nd.

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