July 15, 2021 Show with Kenneth R. Samples on “Christianity Cross-Examined” (Part 2)

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:04

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

00:10

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

00:23

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:31

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

00:38

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

00:50

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions and now here's your host

00:59

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

01:10

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:20

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 15th day of July 2021.

01:31

For those of you who yesterday heard a program that was part one of a discussion that we actually began weeks ago on Christianity cross -examined, is it rational, relevant, and good?

01:48

That was a rerun we were airing yesterday on July 14th and so today, if indeed you are listening on July 15th, it is not a rerun.

02:00

It may be a rerun at some other date, but if you are listening on Thursday, July 15th, this is a live broadcast and it's part two of that very discussion that we aired as a rerun yesterday,

02:15

Christianity cross -examined. This is part two of that discussion and that is the title of Ken Samples' new book.

02:26

Kenneth R. Samples is a former panelist on The Bible Answer Man.

02:33

He is a Reformed Anglican theologian. He's an author and currently the

02:38

Senior Research Scholar at Reasons to Believe and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Audience Representative Radio, my dear old friend,

02:47

Kenneth R. Samples. Chris, it's good to talk with you again. I enjoy our discussions and you're very generous to have me on your program once again.

02:57

Oh, it is my pleasure, brother, and I really thoroughly enjoyed our previous discussion on Christianity cross -examined, is it rational, relevant, and good?

03:09

And the last time we discussed your book on the air, we got very thoroughly involved in addressing, is it rational and relevant?

03:22

But probably the most important part, is it good? We had very little time to address at the end because we had already nearly completely run out of time and only had a couple of minutes to squeeze in that very prominent and vital aspect of Christianity cross -examined.

03:46

In fact, before we go to the topic that we really did not adequately address last time, is

03:53

Christianity good? Tell us perhaps a summary or a recap of Christianity cross -examined, why you wrote the book, and perhaps a little bit of what we covered when it comes to Christianity being rational and relevant.

04:13

Yeah, very good, Chris. You know, when I was hosting the Bible Answer Man, when

04:18

I was one of the panelists back in the early 1990s, working at the

04:25

Christian Research Institute, when I would go to a college or university and give a talk, students were asking me almost exclusively what

04:37

I would call truth questions. Does God exist? Was Jesus the son of God?

04:43

Jesus rise from the dead? How does Christianity differ with the competing world religions?

04:52

However, I noticed about 10 or 15 years ago, and this is my 25th year working at Reasons to Believe, I noticed about a decade or so ago that when

05:04

RTB would send me to a college or university, that the students were asking different questions.

05:11

I still got occasional truth questions, but they asked me a lot of questions about whether Christianity was actually a good force in the world.

05:21

Has Christianity been good for women? Has Christianity been good for racial minorities?

05:27

What about the God of the Old Testament? Is he a God of wrath, and how does that square with Jesus in the

05:33

New Testament? And I thought to myself, Chris, that I wonder if I'm seeing a shift.

05:40

And from a philosophical perspective, you know, we might talk about modernism or modernity.

05:48

That was an era where there was a focus on truth questions. Postmodern era often is suspicious of truth questions and focuses on questions of goodness.

06:03

And so I thought to myself, you know, maybe in this apologetic book,

06:09

I should structure it that way. The first half of the book will deal with truth questions or whether Christianity is rational.

06:17

Is it logically relevant? So I look at, and we talked about it on our first program about Christianity's relationship to science,

06:28

Christianity's relationship to logic, you know, to history. Whereas in the second part of the book,

06:35

I decided to address questions that focus on whether Christianity has been good for human history and the character of God.

06:46

And so I think if there is a distinctive feature of this book,

06:51

I think it's setting it up that way. And by the way, I might tell you that I have interacted with atheists.

07:01

And this is kind of a thought experiment that I'm going to give you.

07:07

In the introduction of the book, I talk about two types of atheists. Now, I'm not sure that every atheist would fit in one of these two categories, but I know that some do.

07:18

One atheist might reason this way, Chris, they may say, look, you know, I don't know, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea if God existed.

07:26

Maybe I'd survive the death of my body. Maybe I would be reunited with my loved ones.

07:32

But the problem is, Christianity is just not rational. It's not something I can, in good conscience, rationally believe.

07:41

Now, I don't know if the atheist Graham Oppie fits that category, but he might. He's a leading academic atheist.

07:49

Now, there's another type of atheist. The other type of atheist says something like this, oh no, there's arguments for God, and there's arguments for Christianity.

07:59

And some of the people who make them are pretty sharp, reasonable people. But the fact is,

08:06

I don't want that God to exist. I don't want that God intruding into my life, pushing his moral dictates to me.

08:15

I think Thomas Nagel, the New York philosopher of mine, New York University, fits really well into that category.

08:24

Now, again, I'm not saying all atheists are in those camps, but I have heard atheists like the first one say, my problem is reason.

08:35

The second one says, my problem is, I just, I don't want that kind of God to exist.

08:41

I can't see that God as a moral being. So I kind of un -dollop that in my new book, and I try to pick questions that are the kinds of questions that skeptical people really ask, and I try to quote the most outspoken of the atheists.

09:04

And as far as the relevancy of Christianity, if you want to give a very brief overview of what we've already addressed?

09:13

Yeah, I think that Christianity speaks, in I think the most relevant way possible, it speaks to the human condition.

09:24

I mean, one of the reasons that I'm convinced that Christianity is true is that it explains who we are as human beings.

09:35

It notes our brokenness, our fallenness. It talks to us meaningfully about salvation and what went wrong, and so if you think about the

09:50

Christian worldview in terms of creation, fall, redemption, consummation,

09:58

I think Christianity is important in its deep relevance.

10:04

And of course I would say this, if Jesus rose from the dead, and I present 20 evidences for that in one of my chapters, the first part of the book, if that's the case,

10:17

Chris, there's no more important question, because all of us are going to die. And if Jesus conquered death, then you need to know it.

10:26

So I think Christianity is quite relevant in its application, especially of the human condition.

10:36

And of course, people may wrongly, and many, many, many, unfortunately, many, many, many people do, they will react to the

10:49

Bible and say it is not relevant, because look at the condemnations they have against homosexuality, and look at the roles, the specific roles they have for men and women in certain areas of life.

11:10

These things are outdated. Well, that's because the majority of humans have changed.

11:19

That doesn't mean truth has changed. Just because the world has become more, or the population of the world has become increasingly more selfish and demanding that they write the rules, and that many things that the

11:43

Bible commanded or prohibited, just because those things are either rejected or embraced, rejected if they were commands of God, and embraced if they were things that God condemns as wicked, just because humans in a greater majority have responded that way, doesn't mean that the problem is with the

12:13

Bible, the problem is with humans. Right, let me give you a powerful contrast, which

12:18

I think it is. I watched a lot of debates that Christopher Hitchens did, the late

12:25

Christopher Hitchens. Yes. Journalist, articulate, outspoken atheist, wrote a best -selling book,

12:35

God is Not Great. You know, Hitchens said that the worst thing about believing in God is that it would be like living in North Korea.

12:48

Big brother, God is pushing himself upon you. You can never be alone, you can never be free, because God is always intruding on your space.

13:00

I contrast that, Chris, with what Saint Augustine said. Saint Augustine said you're never alone, even when you are in despair, even when you are at the bottom of life's experiences, that God is closer to you than your closest friend.

13:21

He's closer to you than your closest brother, your family member. Augustine says

13:27

God is closer to you even than your lover, and thus that contrast of Hitchens on one hand, living in North Korea, God's butting into your business, whereas Augustine says, hey, when you're at the bottom, when you feel despair,

13:46

God's right there. His grace is reaching out to you. I thought, wow, what a powerful contrast.

13:52

Your worldview makes all the difference about who God is and your relationship to him.

14:01

Yeah, isn't it interesting that when the Lord is softening the heart of someone that was lost, or just simply in regard to somebody who is already born again, that the

14:22

Bible is so relevant and always has been, ever since God gifted it to his people.

14:32

You will see how the Bible speaks to you personally, even though written thousands of years ago.

14:43

And that is unlike culture. When you see old movies, when you see or even read secular literature, there is a stark contrast, typically, from yesterday, from what we experience today.

15:09

And sometimes we laugh at things, how they change. But with the

15:14

Word of God, and even biblically faithful Christians who have written valuable volumes for us to bless the church of all ages, when you read the

15:28

Puritans, when you read even further back, the writings of the

15:33

Reformers, how they strike a chord, even though some of the language, if the edition of whatever it is you're reading has not been updated in modern

15:44

English, even if some of the phraseology and the wording and so forth may be a bit antiquated, the content and the message hits right on and strikes a chord as if it was written yesterday.

16:01

And powerfully, Chris, in the case of Hitchens, his brother

16:07

Peter was a journalist and a Marxist. He was at an art library or art museum looking at a painting called

16:17

The Last Judgment, and he said that God spoke to his heart about how he could stand before the wrath of God.

16:25

Peter converted to Christianity. Here's two brothers in the same family, and God is at work in Peter, whereas Christopher was challenging these ideas.

16:40

And so the relevance of Christianity and the grace of God is very powerful. Yes, it was such a shame that after Christopher Hitchens accepted my invitation to debate

16:53

James White, and I was so looking forward to witnessing that exchange between two great minds on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to ideology, it was such a shame that he had to cancel because of his developing and being diagnosed with esophageal cancer, which eventually took his life.

17:19

But I had the posters all printed up and was getting ready, had already begun actually to promote the event, and just tragically it never came to be.

17:37

Well, Christianity is good, or if you want to put it in a question form as your subtitle does, is

17:47

Christianity good? As you just hinted at, there are many people who do not think

17:56

Christianity is good. They think that it has been of great harm to humanity, whether it is due to the oppression of people because of their skin color, their ethnicity, that is, in their minds, and what they have been brainwashed to believe in our modern education system.

18:22

They think that Christianity has been a horrible thing for humanity, a horrible thing for the oppression of those with different sexual preferences, or I don't even know if that is an acceptable way to phrase it today.

18:44

The left changes the dictionary so often, I don't know if I'm up -to -date with what they demand, although I really don't care if I'm up -to -date with what they demand.

18:56

So, obviously, you are a Christian, you obviously believe

19:03

Christianity is good, and if you could start explaining some reasons why, even on the basis of how humanity has been helped, obviously only

19:18

God can determine and define what is good and what is evil in all truth, but there are even ways that there have been

19:27

Orthodox Jews and even atheists and people of other religions who have come to recognize,

19:35

I know that I personally have benefited enormously, incalculably, and my ancestors and those that would share my heritage have benefited greatly from Christianity's existence, even though I and my people, as it were, do not share that religion.

20:04

I have even heard Orthodox Jews and others make statements like that. So, tell us, how do you respond to that question?

20:14

Is Christianity good? Yeah, I think it's a fair question. I don't begrudge anybody asking that question, and I think that we've got great answers to give people.

20:25

Let me talk, first of all, about education and literature. Christian science began one time in the 1600s in Christian Europe, and it began and was birthed and ultimately flourished because of the

20:43

Christian worldview. Now, what's interesting, of course, when I was growing up, I was told that the

20:48

Middle Ages were a very dark period, but I discovered later that they weren't nearly as dark as what people suggested.

20:56

For example, the reason that science could be birthed in the 1600s was because of these great medieval universities—University of Cambridge, University of Oxford, the

21:10

University of Paris, Cologne—these universities are more than a thousand years old, and it was the intellectual firepower that came out of these universities that allowed for this remarkable revolution called science.

21:27

So science was one of the products of the Christian civilization. Not to say that the

21:34

Chinese, the Greco -Romans, the Mesopotamians, even the

21:39

Muslims made contributions to things like math and science—algebra is an Arabic word, for example—but the intellectual firepower, the educational system, came out of Christian civilization, and it was

21:55

Christians who preserved learning and education. Literature, if you look at so many of the great works, they're not only written by many

22:07

Christians, but they engage with the Christian story and the

22:13

Christian ideas. You can also talk about some of the social movements. I mean, one of the big issues, as you've suggested today, is looking at race, gender, and class, where we seem preoccupied with those topics.

22:28

But of course, the ending of slavery in Great Britain and then in America came at the hands of largely abolitionists who were distinctly

22:41

Christian. They viewed the Bible as teaching the fundamental principle that people are made in the image of God, and that black people bore that divine image.

22:55

And so the abolition of slavery was headed by people who were

23:00

Christian in orientation. And I would say to our secularists, if you deny that the world is created, then you also deny that people are made in the image of God, and be careful there, because that is the foundation of the sanctity of human life.

23:19

We could also talk about law and government. Here, there's kind of a unique feature for the

23:25

Protestant Reformation. I mean, the idea of rights not coming from government, but coming from God, and the idea that people, again, have the ability to have rights in government, this is, again, strongly within the

23:48

Christian tradition. Some people have said of John Calvin, and by the way, I think Calvin is probably the most controversial of all

23:56

Christian thinkers, but people sometimes fail to appreciate that Calvin's idea of liberty,

24:04

Calvin's ideas had a strong influence on government. Some historians would say, for example, it's hard to imagine

24:13

America being founded without the Protestant Reformation. We could also talk about charity and philanthropy.

24:23

You know, when I was a kid, I'd see these trucks drive through the neighborhood, you know,

24:31

I would see Salvation Army, these attempts to care for people.

24:39

I mean, in the ancient world, Chris, there was no help, there was no safety net.

24:45

In the Old Testament period, slavery was rampant. It was

24:51

God, through the Mosaic Code, that told the masters that they needed to treat those indentured servants with dignity and respect.

25:00

And God, again and again in the Old Testament, tells the Jews, don't treat the foreigners the way the

25:07

Egyptians treated you. It was Christians that created orphanages. It was

25:13

Christians who built hospitals. In fact, the word hospice is a

25:19

Christian development, that there are people suffering, they couldn't be cured, but they could be cared for.

25:27

I think that Christianity has been an enormously positive good for civilization.

25:35

Doesn't mean there aren't some difficult areas. History is messy when you're dealing with fallen, broken people.

25:45

Things were done in the name of Christ that we should reject. But all in all,

25:52

Christianity is not recognized, in my mind, for the enormous benevolence that it's brought to people on planet

26:01

Earth. In fact, I think you brought up something very important about things done in the name of Christ, because not everything done in the name of Christ is of Christ.

26:13

So we will pick up on that when we return from our first break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

26:23

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

26:31

If you live outside the USA, don't go away. We'll be right back with Ken Samples in part two of our discussion on his new book,

26:39

Christianity Cross -Examined. Saturday, October the 2nd, on the theme,

27:13

Christ is supreme over all. I'll be speaking there, along with over 20 other speakers, including

27:20

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Votie Balcom, Joel Beakey, and James White.

27:25

For details, visit G3conference .com. That's G, the number three, conference, dot com.

27:34

Please join Chris Arnzen and me, September 30th through October the 2nd at G3 2021.

27:41

This is Justin Peters reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. Fellowshiping with the family.

28:00

We are excited to announce another new member of the

28:07

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family, Banu Gadi, owner of three

28:12

New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

28:21

Banu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

28:28

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

28:38

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.

28:44

That's 516 -354 -2000, or order online at Lee's Drugs, rx .com.

28:53

That's L -E -E -S, drugs, rx .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

29:01

Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Banu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

29:12

In Psalm 139, verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the

29:17

Lord like this, I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

29:25

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

29:30

God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

29:40

God's design and once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

29:47

When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious.

29:57

Such is the beauty of his design, knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

30:03

God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

30:10

Thank you. If you love

30:25

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

30:33

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

30:39

Daniel P. Buttafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

30:45

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

30:51

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

31:06

Buttafuoco demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

31:23

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

31:34

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

31:39

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

31:48

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

31:57

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

32:04

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

32:12

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. When Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

32:31

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

32:39

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

32:44

NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

32:55

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

33:01

First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

33:08

I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my

33:13

Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the

33:20

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and the

33:29

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the

33:37

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the

33:45

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

33:51

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

33:57

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

34:06

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

34:22

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

34:29

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

34:34

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers, which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

34:50

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

34:57

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

35:10

Lord's Day in worshipping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

35:19

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org, that's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

35:28

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

35:33

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

35:48

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

35:57

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

36:06

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

36:14

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

36:28

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

36:35

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333, that's 631 -385 -8333.

36:46

Or visit liyfc .org, that's liyfc .org.

36:56

Welcome back, this is Chris Armisen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire program is

37:03

Kenneth R. Samples. This is part two of a discussion that we aired, that we began a number of weeks ago and aired a rerun of yesterday,

37:15

Christianity Cross -Examined, Is It Rational, Relevant, and Good? If you have a question, our email address is chrisarmisen at gmail .com,

37:24

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

37:33

USA. Now, opponents of Christianity, critics, skeptics, they will often bring up things that professing

37:46

Christians have done throughout history and lay the charge at Christianity itself as being the root and the blame for these evils, like chattel slavery is probably the most often repeated thing because there were, admittedly, many

38:05

Christians, even Christians that we agree with theologically and agree with on a host of other issues, who promoted slavery.

38:16

The Southern Baptist Convention at one time was a predominantly Calvinist institution, and it promoted the institution, as it were, of slavery.

38:31

And having said that, we must also remember that the

38:37

Reformed Presbyterian Church was the first denomination to openly oppose slavery and conduct integrated worship services and Bible studies and so on, but the fact of the matter is that these

38:58

Christians who promoted and participated in and even fought for things that we recognize today as being horrific and evil and wicked and even satanic, like chattel slavery, this was never something that was promoted in the

39:18

Word of God as something with which God was pleased or that God commanded, aren't people very often confusing, because of the word being used, slavery, the fact that God's people throughout the ages did have enslavement of prisoners of war, of people who actually sold themselves into slavery because they could not pay debts, and there are a host of other reasons why

39:53

God's people participated in slavery that had nothing to do with the kind of chattel slavery that was known in England and other parts of Europe and America, that in fact had a very crucial element in it, the type of slavery that was practiced in the

40:17

United States, which was a crucial element of the reason the Civil War was fought.

40:26

That crucial element involved something that was so evil in the scriptures that God commanded the death penalty for doing it, and that is man -stealing.

40:40

Stealing a man and selling him was a sin punishable by death, and that was a crucial element in the way that slaves initially found themselves on the shores of America and other parts of the world where slavery was practiced, am

41:00

I right? Yeah, that's exactly right, and I think you're right on target when you say that people pick up the

41:08

Bible, and in the Old Testament you have words like indentured servitude, you have bond servant, the

41:18

English, we use the word slavery, and in the minds of some of these critics, they think, well, slavery in the

41:26

Old Testament, it must be identical to the chattel slavery of the antebellum

41:31

South or in other parts of the West, when in reality it's a very different situation.

41:39

Chris, I don't know that there's any civilization in the ancient world that didn't practice slavery.

41:49

It makes me think that slavery, the terrible evil that it was and is, there are still people today that are under slavery, certainly human trafficking includes incredible evil, but it makes me think that slavery was not just an

42:10

American problem or even a Caucasian problem. Slavery seems to be a fundamental human problem.

42:17

Still goes on where blacks enslave blacks in the Sudan and other parts of Africa and the world.

42:24

This is exactly right, and what you have in the Old Testament is by and large indentured servitude.

42:31

Again, no safety net in the ancient world. People whose crops failed, people who were in debt, they would sell their service to a master, but it never involved the kind of chattel slavery.

42:48

They could be set free after seven years, and even the more difficult issues of Israel taking foreign slaves in battle.

42:58

Remember that Yahweh reminds the Jews again and again, don't treat aliens, don't treat foreigners the way the

43:08

Egyptians treated you. And so there are principles in the Torah, in the

43:14

Mosaic Code, that tell the masters that you can be held accountable.

43:21

Now, what are we to say about these kinds of things? I completely agree.

43:26

I mean, I think Jonathan Edwards is arguably the greatest philosophical theologian in American history, and yet while his son and close associate in ministry were abolitionists battling against slavery,

43:44

Edwards didn't see it. He just had a blind spot. You know,

43:51

I think the problem that we have in our modern day is a lot of people think if they were placed back in Nazi Germany, or they were placed back in the antebellum south, or in various places in history, that they would be people who were courageous and would stand up.

44:09

I would tell you that, you know, Christians are not without blind spots, and everything has not been rosy in Christian history, but I can tell you this, that the

44:21

Old Testament set down rules for how bond servants were to be treated, and in the

44:28

New Testament, in Galatians 3 verse 28, this revelatory statement by the

44:35

Apostle Paul, note in the Christian church, no difference between Jew, Gentile, slave, free, male, female, all are one in Christ.

44:45

I mean, that's an incredible statement, and so in the primitive Christian church, you would have people who were free, but they were slaves in Christ, and then you had slaves who were free men in Christ.

45:00

I think, I think, again, what ultimately ended and made illegal slavery in Europe and America was the moral force that all people are made in the image of God, and could

45:14

I say, because I think our country gets a lot of criticism these days, I know my family came from West Virginia, I know that West Virginia was very proud that they stood with the

45:26

Union against the South, and that we fought a war over these kinds of issues, so yeah, history is messy, but I think that we also need to factor this in,

45:40

Chris, that God has a plan for history. In philosophy, we talk about a teleos, a purpose.

45:48

I'm old enough to remember Martin Luther King preaching during the Civil Rights Movement, and he says that the arc of history is long, but it tends toward justice.

45:58

Well, as a reformed Anglican, I say amen. God is sovereign, and he has a purpose, even in corrupted history, to bring about his purposes, and I think

46:13

Christianity, by and large, was the most powerful force in bringing an end to slavery in the

46:22

Western world. In fact, it's interesting you brought up the fact that you are a reformed

46:28

Anglican, and the Church of England is a very vivid example of God using history to bring about the fulfillment of a plan, and even though the

46:44

Church of England involved a very wicked king, Henry VIII, who his archbishop,

46:54

Thomas Cranmer, didn't even believe his friend Henry was regenerate until Henry's deathbed, where Cranmer said, if you believe in justification by faith alone, squeeze my hand, and he did, because a lot of people don't realize, even though Henry helped to launch the

47:17

Church of England's Protestant identity, he remained theologically

47:23

Roman Catholic, but in spite of this wicked king being involved in the genesis of the

47:32

Church of England, many fine and biblically faithful and Christ -loving men and women and children rose up out of that to spread the true gospel.

47:45

Am I right? Absolutely, and you know, when you think about history, again,

47:51

I come back to this idea of the Church's history is messy. You know,

47:57

England had a lot of power, and sometimes they used that power to oppress people, but they also spread other things, like the

48:09

Bible, like democracy, like human rights, and so when you think of those kinds of issues, and you have people coming out of the

48:20

Church of England, again, Wilberforce in Europe, and again in America, you have many particular groups who took these, you know, took these issues seriously, and so I think to blame

48:37

Christianity, I think reflects a poor understanding of the development of Christianity within the

48:47

West, and even in the East. And it's also interesting how people view themselves so highly that they believe if they were born and raised in an era, let's say, in the

49:07

United States prior to the Civil War, where slavery had already been an established institution for centuries, they think they could have so easily flipped a switch, and that slaves would be free and safe immediately.

49:29

You know, for people who have that insanely high and narcissistic view of themselves, people very often who reject original sin and total depravity, they view the same, they view the garden in the same way.

49:48

They say that if they were Adam or Eve, they never would have fallen for Satan's seduction, so therefore they believe that it is insane and it is ridiculous for mankind to have bore the curse of Adam and Eve's sin, because I would have done better.

50:11

And isn't this the height of pride, really? And I think, Chris, if you look at history and you see the brokenness of humanity, you see the fallenness of humanity, you see the doctrine of original sin, remember that the

50:26

Bible is diagnosing humans that way, and it's, you know, Islam denies original sin.

50:34

Eastern Orthodoxy has difficulty with original sin. It's scripture that says that all of us are fallen in Adam.

50:46

The New Testament talks about a sin nature that's been passed on. So, you know, if you're troubled by hypocrisy, and I am as well, if you're troubled by the fact that there's been evil in the world, remember that one of the fundamental teachings of scripture is that human beings are sinful.

51:06

And, Chris, I love it that in Philippians 2, this ancient hymn that Paul weaves into the

51:14

Colossians, to the Philippian epistle, it says that Jesus didn't hold on to his privileged position in heaven, but became a bond servant, became a slave on our behalf.

51:29

I think that's incredibly powerful, and I think that that's why two of the largest people groups to join

51:35

Christianity at the earliest point in its development were women and slaves.

51:42

They heard something in Jesus of Nazareth. They saw something in him that they didn't find in Greece and Rome, and they didn't find even in first -century

51:55

Judaism. We have to go to the midway break right now, folks. Please be patient with us, because the midway break is a bit longer than the other breaks in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:07

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the

52:13

FCC requires of them to geographically localize

52:18

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and all of their programming to Lake City, Florida, and they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air simultaneously to us, airing our globally heard commercials.

52:35

So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more successfully respond to them, and hopefully that will, on occasion, and perhaps even often, involve you purchasing their products, using their services, visiting their churches, supporting their parachurch organizations financially.

53:00

But when you can't do any of those things, at the very least, please reply to our advertisers by thanking them for sponsoring this show.

53:09

That is, if indeed you do love the show, and you don't want it to disappear. We need to keep our advertisers happy, folks.

53:15

They are a primary reason we continue to exist. We cannot exist without the funding they provide through their advertising campaigns.

53:23

So please respond to our advertisers and also send questions to Ken Samples on Christianity Cross -Examined to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

53:34

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

53:41

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We'll be right back with Ken Samples right after these messages.

53:56

Hi, I'm Phil Johnson, host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

54:07

I hope you plan to join me and Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, for the

54:13

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd.

54:19

The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all. My friend Chris Arnzen and I will be joined by several of our other friends, including

54:27

Votie Balcom, Justin Peters, Daryl Bernard Harrison, Virgil Walker, and James White.

54:34

More than 20 other speakers will be joining us, and the lineup this year includes my pastor, John MacArthur.

54:41

For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com.

54:47

Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.

54:54

This is Phil Johnson reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

55:13

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

55:21

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with, or switching to, the

55:26

NASB. I'm author Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, and the

55:32

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Dan Lebenick of West Hills Baptist Church in Huntington Station, New York, and the

55:40

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries, and the

55:46

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Reverend Buzz Taylor, author of God's Lawson, and the

55:53

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Dr. William Webster, pastor of Grace Bible Church in Battleground, Washington, founder of the ministry

56:02

Christian Resources, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

56:07

I'm Pastor Ryan Galan of Central Islip Community Church in Central Islip, New York, and the

56:13

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Brandon Smith of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Jackson, Georgia, and the

56:22

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

56:27

Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bottles tattered and falling apart?

56:33

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio.

56:43

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

56:54

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

57:00

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

57:09

Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.

57:17

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

57:27

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

57:33

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

57:45

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Transcription of interview with Chris Arnzen on November 6, 2011.

57:53

Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

58:01

Christian perspective. Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com.

58:10

That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I reporting. I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

58:21

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

58:30

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

58:36

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

58:45

There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com

58:51

today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It, at wng .org

58:59

forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.

59:12

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

59:21

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

59:33

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

59:42

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

59:49

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

59:58

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

01:00:03

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

01:00:12

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:00:19

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.

01:00:29

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:00:39

They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.

01:00:46

CVBBS has been a family -owned book service since 1987, operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:00:52

They seek to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices.

01:00:58

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular, because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

01:01:07

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors.

01:01:20

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:01:27

Order online at cvbbs .com, that's cvbbs .com, or you can order by phone at 1 -800 -656 -0231, that's 1 -800 -656 -0231.

01:01:44

Please let our friends at CVBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

01:02:05

As host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

01:02:11

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

01:02:21

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

01:02:29

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

01:02:35

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

01:02:40

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

01:02:55

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

01:03:03

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

01:03:10

or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

01:03:20

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hello, my name is

01:03:34

Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

01:03:42

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on Apple's iTunes app by typing

01:03:51

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

01:03:59

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

01:04:06

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzin has on the show.

01:04:15

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

01:04:20

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

01:04:27

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

01:04:34

Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith, as well as seasoned believers. From Keach's Catechism and the

01:04:40

Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

01:04:50

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

01:05:00

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avenio, and thanks for listening. Anchored in Truth Ministries is the mission arm of Grace Life Church of the

01:05:09

Shoals. Based in Alabama, it supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world.

01:05:20

Anchored in Truth is in partnership with 36 church plants, as well as radio stations, theological seminaries, and various programs for unreached people groups, with an aim to glorify

01:05:33

God and reach the nations with the gospel in so many different contexts globally as vital work worldwide.

01:05:50

Visit anchoredintruth .org. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

01:06:02

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

01:06:10

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

01:06:15

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

01:06:21

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

01:06:34

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

01:06:39

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

01:06:47

That's solid -ground -books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

01:06:56

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget, folks, that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio absolutely positively depends upon the financing that comes through the advertising campaigns from solid -ground -books .com.

01:07:16

They are a vital, a primary, a premier sponsor of this program, and we could not exist without their continued support, barring a financial miracle from God.

01:07:28

So I ask of you to please visit solid -ground -books .com frequently and purchase generously.

01:07:35

And remember, you're not only going to be doing solid -ground -books .com an enormous favor by purchasing books from them, and you're not only going to be doing us an enormous favor by keeping one of our most important sponsors happy.

01:07:52

You're going to be doing yourself and anyone for whom you are purchasing gifts from solid -ground -books .com

01:07:58

a favor of incalculable value, because they bring back into print and publish nothing but the finest in Reformed Christian literature, dating all the way back to the

01:08:12

Protestant Reformation and coming all the way forward to our present day, including books by such modern -day authors as Dr.

01:08:21

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. So go to solid -ground -books .com and always mention when making a purchase that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:08:33

Before we return to our discussion with Ken Samples on Part 2 of a discussion that we aired, that we began airing a number of weeks ago, and in fact we aired

01:08:44

Part 1 as a rerun yesterday, but before we return to Part 2, I would ask of your patience as we provide you some important announcements.

01:08:56

The first is, continue to pray for my oldest brother John, 76, now in a skilled nursing facility after leaving the hospital, where he continues to battle pneumonia.

01:09:13

He has cancer and critical stage emphysema. Pneumonia is always deadly, but it's even a lot more deadly for a man of my brother's age and with his medical conditions.

01:09:28

So please pray that the Lord has mercy on him and spares his life, and most importantly, gives him the gift of eternal life.

01:09:38

My brother has made no clear statements that he has embraced the true gospel, but I did receive a very encouraging email from him today.

01:09:51

Actually, it was a private message on Messenger, Facebook Messenger. Very encouraging to me.

01:09:58

It may sound very simple and small to those listening, but to me it was enormous.

01:10:07

He voluntarily told me, without me asking him and without me coaching him, he voluntarily told me that he prays every day and that he prays very simple prayers, much like he learned as a child, that are simple conversations with God.

01:10:26

And that made my heart rejoice. It is not as detailed a message from him that I would like.

01:10:36

I would love to hear him singing praises to the Lord, that he has embraced the gospel in very clear terms, but even hearing that from my brother is an enormous source of comfort and encouragement to me.

01:10:51

And I replied by not only saying amen to his using very simple prayers in conversations with God, I reminded him, or informed him for the first time, if he did not know this, that our

01:11:11

Lord provides us with his blessing on such simple childlike prayers as we find in Luke chapter 18, 9 through 14, a very famous portion of scripture where a

01:11:26

Pharisee and a tax collector are in the same temple praying. And the Pharisee has a much more flowery and elaborate prayer, but it is also a very prideful and boastful prayer.

01:11:41

In fact, it says that he prayed to himself. And he was basically boasting about all the things that he did not do as wicked people do.

01:11:51

He was boasting about being a better person than others in his mind.

01:11:58

And the tax collector beat his chest and could not even raise his eyes to heaven and said,

01:12:03

Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. And Jesus said that the tax collector was saved, that he went home justified that day.

01:12:13

And I reminded my brother, or told my brother for the first time, that our mother on her deathbed, dying of pancreatic cancer, voluntarily and without coaching, brought that text up when

01:12:31

I asked her if she believed she was going to heaven. And our mother, at 70 years old, dying of cancer, said she believed she was going to heaven.

01:12:42

And she gave that story as her basis because she said, Chris, I am that tax collector.

01:12:50

So I did tell my brother that. And hopefully, if he has not already embraced the gospel, this will help lead him there in all truth.

01:13:02

Please continue to pray for him. Also, folks, if you love this show, and you do not want it to disappear, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:13:11

click support, then click, click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card.

01:13:18

If you prefer snail mail, sending in checks through your local postal service, by all means, do so.

01:13:27

And when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com, a physical address will also appear on the screen where you can mail those checks made payable to ironsharpensironradio.

01:13:36

If you'd like to advertise with this, by all means, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

01:13:44

As long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what we believe.

01:13:50

You don't have to believe identically with ironsharpensironradio, but you need to be promoting something that is, at the very least, compatible with what we believe.

01:14:02

And I will surely, as quickly as possible, help you launch an ad campaign, because we are in urgent need of your advertising dollars, just as much as we are in need of your donations.

01:14:13

Remember, folks, please don't ever siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to, to your own local church where you are a member, in order to give to ironsharpensironradio.

01:14:23

In other words, never punish your church financially by blessing ironsharpensironradio financially.

01:14:31

The church has been first and foremost in my mind, next to God, of course.

01:14:41

When I launched this program, I always wanted to be a friend to the church and the pastor of the local church, a helping hand and a platform to the church and the pastor of the local church.

01:14:53

I never wanted to do anything to hinder or hurt local churches, and that includes financially, so please do not siphon any money away from giving to them in order to give to us.

01:15:06

Also, please do not plunge your family into financial peril by giving to ironsharpensironradio if you are really struggling to survive and make ends meet.

01:15:15

Those two things are commands of God and scripture, providing for church and providing for family. Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God and scripture, but if you love the show and you don't want it to disappear and you are financially blessed by God above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, providing for church and family, you have extra money collecting interest in the bank, you have extra money for recreational purposes and trivial purposes.

01:15:43

Please, I'm urging you, use some of that money, use even a lot of that money to help us remain on the air if indeed you love the show and don't want it to disappear.

01:15:53

We have been hurt financially tremendously by the coronavirus pandemic hysteria because many people in our audience have been giving less or have ceased giving because the coronavirus pandemic hysteria has damaged their own livelihoods.

01:16:11

At times it has made them unemployed. So please help us replenish that which was lost by going to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:16:20

click support, then click click to donate now. Also folks, if you are not a member of a local bible -believing church, a biblically faithful christ -honoring church, no matter where on the planet earth you live,

01:16:31

I may be able to help you find a church as I have already done with people spanning the globe in our audience.

01:16:38

I have extensive lists all over the planet earth of biblically sound, theologically sound, god -honoring, faithful churches and I may be able to refer you to one right near your home, maybe even just minutes from your home.

01:16:58

So send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. And that is also the email address where you can send in questions to Ken Samples.

01:17:08

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

01:17:16

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

01:17:23

USA. So Ken, tell us more about why

01:17:28

Christianity is good and obviously if we as Christians believe

01:17:35

Christianity is from God, that this is the true faith of God, we obviously believe it must be good because God is good, always good, and only good to his people.

01:17:51

So give us some more reasons why we should be confident Christianity is good. Yeah, that's such an important thing today, our questioning the goodness of Christianity.

01:18:05

Well again, I think if we look at history, God cares about the little guy in the

01:18:15

Old Testament, Yahweh. He's unlike the gods on Mount Olympus that simply want to seduce the maidens.

01:18:26

Yahweh is different. He watches out for the widow. He watches out for the orphan, for the alien.

01:18:39

And again, this idea that God is good, that God is gracious, it certainly permeated the teaching of Jesus.

01:18:52

And so we see so many different varieties of philanthropy that comes out of Christianity.

01:19:03

The human beings again have dignity and value. So that's a very strong component.

01:19:12

You know, today's world is very different than the ancient world. No safety net,

01:19:19

Christians building hospitals, building orphanages, creating alms houses, sharing their food with people.

01:19:31

You know, what I like is the early Christians, they treated everyone as if they mattered.

01:19:41

And that was regardless of their race, their sex, their country of origin.

01:19:50

You know, we live in a time where some people are just obsessed with these categories of race, gender, and class.

01:19:57

But what you find in Christianity is a faith that is lived out in such a way that we express respect for people.

01:20:09

And you know, we could go into other areas, Chris. The development of art and beauty.

01:20:18

You know, if you think about the areas of the aesthetic side of life,

01:20:25

Christianity has played a very powerful role in the medieval period.

01:20:31

The Church was the patron of the arts. So there are many ways that Christianity has been good for the world.

01:20:40

And you know, whether it's the YMCA or whether it is various other...

01:20:49

And that is not the song by the village people, you're referring to. That's correct. The YMCA actually was started by a

01:21:00

Christian group. You know, I would tell you this, Chris... Young Men's Christian Association. That's exactly right.

01:21:07

I had a friend who struggles with alcohol, and I went to some meetings with him just to kind of be supportive of him, and I was reading, you know, some of the principles that they follow, and I could tell that these early ideas had been influenced by Christian ideas of trying to help people who, you know, struggle with addiction and things of that nature.

01:21:37

You know, there are many areas you can look at, and Christianity has been a very powerful force for good.

01:21:47

Let's see here. We have an anonymous listener who asks,

01:21:54

Before the break, you were mentioning that the Bible prohibits the stealing of a human being and selling him or her.

01:22:05

Where in the Bible is that? Oh, okay. That's in Exodus. Exodus 21.

01:22:12

21 to 16 is where you can find that prohibition, which is punishable by death.

01:22:20

And of course, there may have been slave owners who balked at that and said, Oh, I didn't steal anybody.

01:22:25

I bought these slaves. Well, they were originally kidnapped. In their heritage, they wound up on the different shores of different continents and different nations to be sold initially because they were kidnapped and sold.

01:22:47

But anyway, by the way, if you would like to provide for us your full name and mailing address, obviously off the air through an email, we will not divulge your identity.

01:23:02

You said you wanted to remain anonymous, but you have won a free copy of Christianity Cross -Examined by our friend

01:23:08

Ken Samples, a complement of Reasons to Believe, and also complements of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

01:23:19

CVBBS .com will be shipping that book out to you. And if you are a first -time questioner, you're also going to get a free

01:23:27

New American Standard Bible. That is if you are a first -time questioner. So we hope to hear from you soon.

01:23:35

Let's see here. We have another anonymous listener. The anonymous listener says,

01:23:42

I have been dealing with people in my own home who are professing

01:23:48

Christians and yet they are opposed to Christianity as an organized religion and don't believe that they are compelled to be members of any church because they say that that's where men always screw things up.

01:24:08

So how shall I answer these family members during these ongoing arguments that we have over this?

01:24:16

Very good question. And I think a very common problem in Christendom, is it not, in Christianity, that you have a lot of people,

01:24:25

I know personally, people that either bounce from church to church to church to church or are not a member of any church and never go to any church because they have no heartfelt attachment to the church.

01:24:41

They don't think that God requires of them to be subject to the authority of local elders and to be members of local churches and therefore they just stay at home on Sunday or church hop perpetually for decades.

01:24:57

So how do you respond to people like that? Yeah, I think that you're right. This is a very relevant question.

01:25:05

I think there's a couple elements that I'd want to speak to. One is, we have a lot of people,

01:25:11

I think maybe especially today, who think that their relationship with God is very personal, but it's not corporate.

01:25:21

That is, they look at Christianity as a relationship but not as a structured faith or religion.

01:25:30

And I try to remind people that it's true, you have a personal relationship with God, but that doesn't rule out the fact that the church exists in the world and it's been around for 2 ,000 years and there is a structure to it.

01:25:48

And I think, too, Scripture is very clear that we're to belong to a church.

01:25:55

This is a place where you can be taught the Word of God, you can receive the

01:26:01

Lord's Supper, you can fellowship with other Christians. I think that's, again, one of the challenges that we have in kind of our individualistic type of age.

01:26:15

And I think even more than that, a lot of people don't realize how much good can be done by your church and you being involved in it and supporting various things like that.

01:26:33

So absolutely, being part of a church body is not an option, and there are many benefits to be derived from it.

01:26:45

Yes, and it is, again, very arrogant for a

01:26:52

Christian. I mean, the Bible itself lists specific requirements for those who are to be leaders and teachers, and therefore, being a member of a church is obviously an important thing.

01:27:15

It's the height of arrogance to think, I don't need anybody else. I just need my

01:27:20

Bible and I can just sit at home and I am smarter and wiser and I could just interpret the

01:27:28

Scriptures just as good as anybody else, maybe better than anyone else.

01:27:34

And I have never, ever seen that work out well.

01:27:39

Have you? No, it doesn't work out well. And it's, again, there's so much to be benefited from, and by not doing it, you put yourself in a very vulnerable position.

01:27:58

And again, I think many modern people don't like to think of Christianity as a religion.

01:28:08

They think of it as a very personal relationship. I think it's both. I think Christianity is a redemptive relationship with God, but it also involves the structure of the church and all kinds of other things.

01:28:22

So, you want to encourage and invite people back to be members of a solid, local church community.

01:28:34

Yeah, and let's not forget Hebrews 13, verse 17,

01:28:41

Obey those who have the rule over you and submit yourselves, for they keep watch over your souls as ones who must give an account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief, for that is unprofitable for you.

01:28:58

So, for you to think that you know your Bible and yet think that you don't need to be submissive to God -appointed elders in a local church, that's just proof that you really don't know the

01:29:10

Scriptures. Wouldn't you agree? Yep, yep. I mean, we want good people in our churches, we want good pastors, we want good elders, we want people that can use good responsibility, but that also means that members of the church need to be part of that, be supportive of that, and to be submissive to it.

01:29:36

And, you know, again, I think there's this individuality that people experience, but, you know, a good church home is a great place for you and your family to live out the faith.

01:29:51

You know, and I think we have to be cautious also, I'm sure you would agree with this, Ken, knowing of your kind and compassionate and tender heart, and I'm not exaggerating,

01:30:02

I do uh believe those are very noticeable and strong elements of your character, but we have to be careful not to just beat up and yell at and scold and rebuke people who are not members of a local

01:30:20

Bible -believing church, because very often, not always, but very often these are people who are victims of very serious abuse, either in a cult, or a false religion, or even a church that is theologically sound on paper, but have leaders that really violated the scriptural principles of church leadership, and have either mentally, emotionally, and spiritually abused their congregants, but perhaps even physically, and molested them sexually, and who knows.

01:30:56

But, as I have said to people when they have responded that they are a victim of something like that, and they said they'll never be a member of a church again,

01:31:06

I remind them, first of all, do not reject Jesus because of Judas.

01:31:14

Judas was one of Christ's hand -picked apostles, and in an earthly realm,

01:31:23

Judas led Jesus to his death. Now obviously we know God ordained that, and Jesus willingly laid down his life for his sheep.

01:31:33

He was not forced to do this, but on an earthly sense, Judas betrayed his friend, a man who appointed him as an apostle, and so why would we think, why should we think, that the church is going to be perfect here on earth?

01:31:52

There are going to be Judas's. In fact, one of the reasons we know the scriptures are true is that it warns against false teachers, false apostles, and if they were not in existence, we would have reason to doubt the truthfulness of the scriptures.

01:32:11

Am I making sense here? Absolutely. I mean, chapter 11 of my book, I talk about the question of, you know, why are so many

01:32:21

Christians so unlike Christ? And I think you've made some really critical points.

01:32:28

In fact, how did you phrase that? Because there was that stupid sound effect by the computer that drowned you out. The question of what?

01:32:35

Yeah, chapter 11 is, why are so many Christians so unlike Christ? Okay. And of course, you're right,

01:32:43

Chris, there are people that have, they have been victims, and they have been treated badly, sometimes by clergy, sometimes by elders, sometimes by other

01:32:56

Christian individuals, but I think what's critical in all of that is the recognition that, you know,

01:33:04

Ken Samples and Chris Arntzen, you know, we might step on your toes, we might be difficult people at various times, but I guarantee

01:33:13

Jesus isn't going to let you down. And I want to underscore how important it is, you know, to be gracious.

01:33:24

We want to put our best arguments forward, we want to make our case, but, you know, we're saved by grace.

01:33:34

And I know I desire to be a gracious, loving, caring person.

01:33:40

I want to contend for the truth, I want to promote unity, but I want to be a very charitable individual.

01:33:48

So sometimes, if you've been hurt by other Christians, what you might discover is there are really a lot of very caring

01:33:55

Christians who are empathetic, who want to encourage you and kind of help you work through the difficulties that you have.

01:34:04

And so, part of that second part of the book, Chris, is to try to talk about how

01:34:11

Christians can also be very powerful help to people who have been hurt.

01:34:18

And, you know, there are too many hypocrites, but Jesus is not one of them.

01:34:24

He will never fail you. Amen. And that goes back again to a denial of the necessity of being a member of the body of Christ.

01:34:34

It all goes back to really self -absorption, narcissism, where you think that you don't need anybody else.

01:34:45

You could do it better than anybody else, or just as good at the very least. And that is every single person

01:34:51

I have seen behave that way has made a shipwreck of their faith and life.

01:35:00

So although we have to be tender and patient and compassionate with those that we know and love who are not members of the local church, we still have to remind them, perpetually remind them, that they need to be attached to the body of Christ.

01:35:16

In fact, we have a first -time, I think it's a first -time listener, or at least first -time questioner,

01:35:24

J .W. in Dallas, Texas. And I don't know if J .W.

01:35:29

means he's a Jehovah's Witness, or those are his initials. Actually, as I read the question,

01:35:36

I see he can't be a Jehovah's Witness. Now, isn't the church one of the primary ways that the

01:35:45

Lord draws the lost to salvation? I understand there are occasions, like the thief on the cross, where people have come to saving faith in Christ apart from a connection to the church.

01:35:59

But isn't that the normal and primary ways that he saves people, making that one of the best examples of why

01:36:07

Christianity is good? Oh yeah, I agree with it. Everything you just said. How about you, Ken? Yeah, absolutely.

01:36:14

I mean, we tend to have, I think over the last couple hundred years, we talk a lot about, you know, kind of evangelism that is, you know, hearing a message, maybe coming forth, you know, to an altar call.

01:36:32

I think what that misses, however, is that the vast majority of people come to hear and understand

01:36:40

Christianity because they are brought into a church community. Often they're born into families of parents who are dedicated

01:36:48

Christians and nurture their kids in the faith. But absolutely,

01:36:55

I mean, the church has many roles to play. And you know, when things go on in the church that shouldn't be, it causes all kinds of problems.

01:37:05

But I think often we do not hear about the very gracious people, people who are sacrificial, who want to help each other, and the tremendous friendships and relationships that we can have.

01:37:21

And you're very good at that, Chris. I mean, you really have a...you're constantly talking about the importance of being part of the body of Christ.

01:37:30

I mean, even telling people not to support your show, if it takes it away from supporting the church,

01:37:37

I mean, that takes a lot of humility. That's not the typical way that radio talk show hosts, you know, present yourself.

01:37:45

But it again shows your depth of commitment, and I know your listeners appreciate it.

01:37:53

Yeah, I was just actually reminded by a pastor recently who, that's his favorite part of the show, and he actually is submitting his request that the church he pastors add

01:38:09

Iron Triple Zion Radio to a domestic missionary budget every month.

01:38:15

So I hope that pastor's congregation is as much in favor of that idea as he is.

01:38:23

Yeah, very good. I like it. We're going to our final break. It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks.

01:38:30

If you have a question, you'd like to join our other listeners with a question of your own on the air, please send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:38:40

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:38:50

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

01:39:01

Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpen Zion Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

01:39:10

Christian perspective. Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com.

01:39:19

That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting. I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

01:39:30

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

01:39:38

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

01:39:45

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

01:39:54

There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com

01:40:00

today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything In It, at wng .org

01:40:08

forward slash podcast. That's W for world, N for news,

01:40:14

G for group, dot org forward slash podcast. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

01:40:29

My friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia, once again for the

01:40:36

G3 Conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd, on the theme,

01:40:44

Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and singing, including

01:40:53

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and Virgil Walker.

01:40:59

For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com. Chris Arnson and I hope to see you

01:41:06

September 30th through October 2nd at G321. This is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

01:41:20

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:41:25

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

01:41:33

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

01:41:39

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

01:41:45

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, New York, and the

01:41:53

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

01:42:02

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

01:42:09

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

01:42:17

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

01:42:25

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens Jr. of the

01:42:31

Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

01:42:36

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew

01:42:43

Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:42:54

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:43:08

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

01:43:18

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnson is doing is

01:43:23

Daniel P. Buttafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

01:43:30

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

01:43:35

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

01:43:51

Buttafuoco demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

01:44:07

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

01:44:18

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

01:44:24

Tower of Babel, and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

01:44:33

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

01:44:42

You can have your copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

01:44:49

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

01:44:57

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Lynbrook Baptist Church on 225

01:45:06

Earl Avenue in Lynbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

01:45:12

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

01:45:18

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

01:45:26

We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

01:45:32

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

01:45:38

Call Lynbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

01:45:46

Or visit lynbrookbaptist .org. That's lynbrookbaptist .org. We are excited to announce another new member of the

01:46:01

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio advertising family, Banu Gadi, owner of three

01:46:06

New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

01:46:15

Banu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

01:46:22

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

01:46:32

To find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000. That's 516 -354 -2000.

01:46:41

Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com. That's l -e -e -s drugs r -x dot com.

01:46:51

Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program. This is

01:47:03

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:47:09

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio financially.

01:47:18

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

01:47:30

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

01:47:37

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us on Lord's Day in worshiping our

01:47:52

God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:48:00

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:48:08

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

01:48:14

Lord God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

01:48:26

Charles Hedden Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

01:48:34

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

01:48:42

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

01:48:48

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

01:49:01

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

01:49:06

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

01:49:14

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

01:49:23

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm Dr.

01:49:36

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

01:49:47

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

01:49:54

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church.

01:50:00

who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:50:12

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

01:50:19

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

01:50:28

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:50:35

That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:50:43

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:50:57

Welcome back and 10 samples. I'd like you to have, before we go to any other listener questions, if we have time to take any after you're finished,

01:51:11

I'd like you to uninterrupted give our listeners several minutes of explanation and description of what you most want etched in their hearts and minds today about this subject,

01:51:25

Christianity Cross -Examined. Yeah, thanks Chris. You know,

01:51:32

I think it's very important to be able to talk about the faith, to communicate the faith, and you know, what

01:51:43

I attempt to do in that book is to try to tackle the real tough questions.

01:51:51

Again, the first part of the book looks at questions about science, about history, about logic, you know, can the

01:51:59

Trinity and the Incarnation, are those reasonable? I also look at, you know, the spread of Christianity and the resurrection of Christ.

01:52:09

I developed, you know, 20 evidences for Christ's resurrection.

01:52:16

But the second part of the book, I try to honestly address the kinds of objections that people really do raise.

01:52:25

We talked a bit about slavery. I also raised the question of what about Joshua's conquest of the

01:52:32

Canaanites. I look at Christendom. There are non -Christians at times that look at the divisions within Christendom, and they're not, they don't understand it.

01:52:42

They don't understand why Christians are divided. I try to look at that very carefully, and so what

01:52:49

I'm attempting to do in the book is to help Christians. I think

01:52:54

Christianity Cross -Examined is a book that a Christian could get a lot of use out of, and I think it's the kind of book you could actually give to a non -Christian, to a skeptic, to an atheist.

01:53:07

That's why I wrote the book, to really try to take objections seriously.

01:53:14

And one of the things I do like about the way the book came out is, Chris, you don't have to read the entire book.

01:53:21

You can look at the particular questions and chapters, and you can gravitate toward the issues that you are most interested in.

01:53:29

So I appreciate you giving me an opportunity to talk with your listeners about my latest book.

01:53:39

Oh, the pleasure is all mine, brother, and we do have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, with a question.

01:53:46

The question is, how do we respond to people that will say to us, truthfully, that how can

01:53:55

Christianity be the best religion, ideology, and theology if it often produces people that are worse husbands than some lost husbands are, worse wives than some lost wives are, worse parents, and we could go on and on.

01:54:19

Christianity does not always produce better human beings than the world has to offer.

01:54:26

How do we respond to this? Because it is a truth that is very difficult to deal with.

01:54:32

Yeah, that is true, and we also have to remember the inadequate or horrible husband or wife or parent didn't die for the sins of his people.

01:54:44

But if you could go on with your own answer to that. Yeah, well,

01:54:50

I appreciate that very candid and very pointed question, and I think it's a reasonable one to raise.

01:54:59

I think I'd make a couple points. First of all, the truth of Christianity, whether it is the truthful revelation revealed to God, doesn't rest with all of the followers of the religion.

01:55:19

Ultimately, it rests with the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And yeah, there are husbands who are

01:55:29

Christians who have a great need to grow in their love and care for their family, and there are

01:55:38

Christians who struggle with addiction. There are Christians who struggle with all kinds of things.

01:55:45

But remember what the Bible says. The Bible says that people are fallen. They are sinful. We live in a broken world.

01:55:52

That's why Jesus came into the world, to redeem us. So I think it's important to recognize that ultimately the truth of Christianity rests on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

01:56:08

But you know, I would also add, I think that Christianity has produced some pretty remarkable people.

01:56:17

People who are very humble, people who are very giving, people who are very courageous, and I think

01:56:27

Christianity has a remarkable history for changing people.

01:56:35

Yeah, in fact, wouldn't you say that those failures of husbands and wives and parents and every other category of human, it is never because of Christianity.

01:56:47

It's because of a disobedience to the principles of Christianity and the commands of Christ.

01:56:56

And you very often have lost people who might even be unconsciously obeying

01:57:02

Christ when it comes to being a spouse and a parent and an employee and an employer and on and on.

01:57:11

Absolutely. I mean, nobody lives the Sermon on the Mount except Jesus, and yet when we do fail in our relationships and in our various involvement in life, it is not because of the teaching of Christianity.

01:57:33

It is because of our own brokenness, our own fallenness, our own rebellion, and things of that nature.

01:57:40

And so, I don't know, I think you could point to many people in the history of the world whose lives have been utterly transformed.

01:57:52

And that doesn't mean, though, that sanctification is a long process.

01:57:57

It is up and down, back and forth, and yet Jesus will never fail you.

01:58:06

That wasn't the case with me. I was instantaneously made perfect. Just kidding, folks.

01:58:15

I know your wife, and I think she might have another word. She definitely would.

01:58:26

Well, if anybody wants more information about the ministry where Ken Samples uses his gifts primarily, it is reasons .org,

01:58:38

reasons .org. And is there any other contact information that you care to provide?

01:58:46

Well, we have the book there, and we're making it available to anybody who wants to make a donation.

01:58:55

And I write a lot of articles, Chris, and so our website, reasons .org, is a good place to check in.

01:59:03

Great. And don't forget, folks, anytime we discuss a book on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, you can also get it at cvbbs .com,

01:59:12

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, which is a sponsor of this program. And just make sure that you get the title, author, and publisher correct.

01:59:19

I want to thank you, Ken, for doing another outstanding job with us today. I want to thank everybody who listened.

01:59:25

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.