August 10, 2020 Show with Dr. David C. Innes on “Christ & the Kingdoms of Men: Foundations of Political Life” (Part 2)

The Christian Foundation for Political Life

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Wake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening to the live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 10th day of August 2020.

And we have as a returning guest today, my friend, Dr. David C. Innes, who is returning for part two of a discussion we began on May 6th. That is part two of our discussion on his book, Christ and the Kingdoms of Men, Foundations of Political Life.

And David is professor of politics and chair of the program in politics, philosophy, and economics at the King's College in New York City. And he, for many years, was a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, New York, where I first met him, and where he, when I also lived on Long Island, he used to attend many of the debates, the public theological debates that I orchestrated, primarily with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

And I believe now he is a member of the Bohemia, or the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Bohemia, Long Island. Oh, wait a minute, no, he's a member of a different OPC church in Huntington, I believe. Well, I'll have him clarify that.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Triple Zion Radio, Dr. David C. Innes.

Thank you, Chris. It's good to be back.

And you are, in fact, a member of the Trinity OPC congregation.

Trinity Church, yeah. We meet in Syosset, which is on Long Island. For your listeners, it's Long Island. Trinity Church, yeah.

Yeah, and he used to be in Huntington or Huntington Station.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we're renters because it's very expensive on Long Island. But I'm a minister in the OPC.

Amen. And so tell us about the King's College in New York City.

The King's College in New York City is in politics, philosophy, and economics. And we're a seriously, intentionally Christian college with an aggressively Christian, about 500 students.

I want to give our listeners the website for the King's College. If anybody wants to look up more information on the King's College, perhaps either you or your children may want to investigate becoming a part of the student body there.

And the website is tkc .edu, tkc .edu. And also, if you have any other information you'd like to find out about our guest, Dr. David C. Innes, he has his own website, dcinnes .com, dcinnes .com. As I already mentioned, we are discussing Christ and the Kingdoms of Men, Foundations of Political Life, part two of our discussion that we began in May.

And a lot has happened since May in the media. Obviously, everybody is sitting fixed, either that or hiding somewhere and trying not to watch what they are hearing about in the media, because it's so, to many, terrifying.

But tell us, again, why you wrote this book to begin with.

Well, I wrote this book about issues of government in this country. The country is deeply divided. And the country is deeply divided, if any, on fundamental truths, even what a human being is and how we should treat them.

We should lead, and the Kingdoms of Men, Foundations of Political Life. And there are other books on politics out there, I agree on.

Well, I want our listeners to have our email address in the event that they have questions of their own. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And so, David, one of the things that you just said about your catalyst, your purpose in writing the book, is that there is so much disagreement and confusion.

But, that does not exempt the Church. Even does not exempt those that believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, and are biblically literate, and are even leaders in the Church, not only, perhaps, undershepherds in their own congregation, pastors, elders, Bible teachers, but even leaders in their denomination, or leaders in the parachurch world, well-known authors.

I have had folks on this program, sometimes in the same week, sometimes back-to-back on different days, who have taken 180-degree different positions, it seems, on the same issue of how we as a Church should most appropriately and biblically respond to what is occurring around us, and perhaps even more specifically, how the government is wielding its authority, and how we are to respond.

And that, and even, I'm going to make it even more of a narrow group that disagrees, theologically Reformed, not only Reformed Baptists versus Paedo-Baptists, but even Paedo-Baptists disagree, and even Orthodox Presbyterians.

So, it seems that this is really, it's clear that the Church is divided on this, and shouldn't we make sure that no matter what our positions are, even if we zealously and aggressively and enthusiastically defend and proclaim our positions, and even give them great weight, don't we have to be very careful about the condemnation that we may be tempted to hurl, or have already hurled, against our brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree?

Yeah. Moral questions and political questions are moral questions. Together, divide us. So, in my opinion, finally someone said it, and, you know, if you want that, go to Twitter.

I'm on Twitter once a day for one sole purpose, to promote my radio show, and I never look at it otherwise.

There you go. Shout at each other.

I did not intend to convey the idea in my statements that I believe there are not moral absolutes. There are certain political issues where I don't believe a Christian has wiggle room. I think that the murder of unborn children is something that every Christian must vehemently oppose, and there are other things that would go hand-in-hand with that.

Every Christian must be opposed to the sin of homosexuality. Now, that second one, there is a bit of a difference, even though we must all, as Christians, declare that homosexuality is an unnatural and damning sin, if one is unrepentant when participating in that wicked behavior.

There may be differences of opinion on how those in political power respond to people behaving in that way. There's where the difference of Christian views on politics may come into play with, and do come into play with, that area.

But there are things, and I'm assuming you would agree, that there are black and white things. There is no reason why a Christian should be considering himself and considered by others in good standing with God, or in a right relationship with God, if indeed they believe, and in fact, even some professing Christians enthusiastically and zealously and aggressively believe in a woman's so-called right to murder her unborn children, and even children who are born, quote-unquote, accidentally alive during an abortion attempt.

And one such notable individual who has become globally praised on a daily basis for weeks, very recently, is a politician in Congress who passed away very recently, who believed in partial birth abortion, and even who believed in, or should I say opposed, the Infant Born Alive Act, believed that a woman should be able to allow her child to die in a shoebox or somewhere else in an abortuary where she intended to kill the child, but the baby was born alive.

And this person has been globally been identified as a Christian. But would you agree with me that there are certain areas where we have no right to claim a neutrality or gray area, or even zealously promote those things like abortion?

Yeah, there are some things over which people can reasonably disagree. There are some very serious matters on which, well, we should be united, but some things that are a support for which are evidence of a depraved mind.

And like if somebody were to say today, oh, I believe in racial slavery, I don't know if anyone believes that today, but that would be a sign of a depraved mind, and a very unhappy given argument against it.

And of course, there are arguments you can give against it reasonably disagree. For example, Joe Biden is the Democratic candidate, and there's been some question about whether he is a Christian good standing, and if you're in support that the baby in the womb.

Yeah, it is fascinating, ironic, and ridiculous, actually,.

That many on the left are accusing those of us on the right as being science deniers, and yet they will deny personhood to even fully formed infant children, who are denied the rights to live if a woman for any reason, wants that baby murdered, and who deny the genetics of science, who deny men are men and women are women just because of how they feel, or how they may think at this moment about an issue.

America’s Moral and Political Fragmentation

Well, Chris, this is what I'm talking.

About, about the fragmentation in the country, the country, America is in a crisis. And when I say a crisis, it's an immortal Christ fundamental fragmentation. Among us, we can't, as I said, we can't even agree on what a human being is half the country wants to be able to kill babies, just mentioned, and this has become, this has become public orthodoxy, as it did overnight.

It's insane. And, and that he's always been a one Jenner very thing. Like history was rewritten. This is just madness. But that's where we are. And if you don't, you yourself are conceived unfit for civilized society.

That's where we are. And that's why the church forward as an exam and, and identifying. Yes. And that last issue that you just raised,.

The T in LGBTQ, transgenderism, so called, that is even the subject of heated debate, I think, far more heated than we even see in the media. Between those in that, the series of letters, L, G, B, T, Q, there are very sharp lines of division in between, perhaps even especially lesbians and the transgendered.

But even some homosexuals in general, obviously, there are homosexuals or those who practice that behavior who disagree on politics, for all reasons, there are those that are fiscally conservative, and even in some areas, other than the area of homosexuality, morally conservative, other even pro-life homosexuals, but the issue of whether a man who thinks he's a woman should be able to compete in female sports, that's something that is divided sharply, those on the left, who are either heterosexual feminists.

Or lesbians. Yeah, it works its way out into absurdity, like the woman in Germany who wanted to wear a German chandelier, and she wanted to marry it. Well, why not? But the issue here is not the immediate question, what we just described, the creational order all comes back, and if there is not, then all these moral claims about rights and so forth is utterly meaningless.

It's just what you can grab and what you can take and what you can enforce on other people, if there's no moral order to the universe. But they do believe these are moral issues, but they have no foundation for it.

And the other issue is some sort of disorder, and they need love from other people, they invented, benefited, and there's all kinds of people of creation, what is the God over the face of the earth as the waters cover the creation?

What do you specifically mean by foundations in the subtitle? Foundations. Foundations are fundamental, these are foundations. And the purpose of, as individuals, the church in doing these things. The thing about foundations is that they often go unnoticed, because they're the presupposite blind to accepting.

But they're always exposed, they're always in view. So, for example, people don't see it. We just accept as gospel truth that we're all fundamentally individuals, and that families, societies are composed out of individuals.

And that the most important thing is my free will. If I want to be a woman, I can be a woman, because I'm autonomous, and so forth and so on. So, the book clarifies the starting points, the fundamental, creational, and only within that, then you get everything right.

A big part of it, you start with Adams.

Several chapters are in your book on the purpose of government. Why so much on that?

If there is a, if something has a purpose, not intended for a screwdriver, power, or policies of Johnson's Great Society, or you've got to use this, etc. etc. Well, we have to go to our first station break.

And if anybody wants to join us for the question.

Of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. That's chrisarnson, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. And we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Dr. David C. Innes on Foundations for Political Life, right after these messages from our sponsors, so don't go away.

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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours of the program is Dr. David C. Innes, Professor of Politics and Chair of the Program in Politics, Philosophy, and Economics at the King's College in New York City.

We are addressing part two of a discussion we began in May on his book, Christ and the Kingdoms of Men, Foundations of Political Life. If you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com. If you have a question of your own, please always give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We have Laszlo in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who asks, How does identity politics square with a biblical worldview? Is it a sinful presupposition?

Obviously, I think a good place to start with answering that question is defining identity politics. David?

Yeah, as I understand it, identity politics, as a Christian, your identity is in Christ. I'm a Christian. That's the most fundamental thing about me. I'm also American. I'm a Scottish Canadian American.

I'm various things. Some of them are dear to me, but fundamentally, I'm a Christian. Identity politics identifies a particular fundamental orienting identity, then that should be addressed. Oppression is by definition not good.

But identity politics identifies liberation from that, from that oppression. A person is not having the mentally is that and particularly as an oppression to that, and you're you're you're sufficient good that oppression, and it tends to be people as hostile to this and and seeks to punish them.

People have different levels of importance, they have been assigned by the left, as if these folks are God breathed, inerrant writers of some kind of scripture. And of course, the God who is breathing, this is not the God of, of the Bible that we know and love and believe in.

But I'm not saying that they actually attribute it to a god or a goddess, but they act as if these things are inerrant, they, they will react to you severely and punish you in any way that they have the power and authority and ability to punish you if you disagree with them on these things.

But,.

But the other side of the ungraciousness. Now, I forget the phrase they use, even though it's.

Been repeated on the show many times. But there is a certain, as I was saying, a hierarchy of importance of rights, where, for an example, a lesbian, transgendered, black person would have rights that seem to trump even a male homosexual white persons, because of that person being not only female, which has been viewed as an oppressed minority group, and being black, which has been considered an oppressed minority group that would trump the white color of the other person, and the transgenderism, which trumps even just your run-of-the-mill activities involving homosexuality.

Am I right on this? And I can't remember the phrase that they.

Use. I don't think I, but it does, it does, it seems to me, run into all kinds of absurdities. I mean, you mentioned earlier the, the, the, the, who then, it would clear up an awful lot of this stuff.

And the Christians have not always been very loving of segregation, creational principle. And I'm sure you've interviewed people on, on the matters of, of just, that's what I hope to be. I just remembered the phrase I was looking for,.

Intersectionality. Yeah, yeah. But, but anyway, just a bunch of nonsense, unbelievable that any mature adult with three brain cells would believe in this stuff. But, and yet it's the orthodoxy,.

Relations hold to it, institutions of higher education and lower education hold to it, the media, entertainment, everyone holds to this. It's orthodoxy, and if you question it, and until very recently, and now, it's not as if, well, we've put off Christianity, now we have freedom of thought.

No, there's, as you've pointed out, and as I've pointed out, there's, and that involves wokeness, progressive ideas of various kinds, which always seem to be, so there's always this reigning orthodoxy.

It occurred to me yesterday. In fact, David,.

David, could you remember what you, what occurred to you yesterday when we come back from the break? We have to get our midway break right now. Sure, sure. Please don't forget what you remembered yesterday.

As I said, we have to get our midway break. It's longer than normal. Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break because they have to abide by FCC regulations to localize Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, so they air their own public service announcements in the middle of the show while we air our globally heard commercials.

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I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I cannot hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the holy scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co-elder, Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post-Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding. No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post-Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching. Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my Nestle All in 28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift.

The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome. Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one-of-a-kind work of art.

For more details on Post-Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com. That's.

Ptlbiblerebinding .com. We are excited to announce another new member of the Iron Sharpens Iron.

Radio advertising family, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Laurel Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead. Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media. To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.

That's 516 -354 -2000. Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com. That's leesdrugsrx .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program. Greetings in the.

Matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through. In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this, I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.