August 10, 2020 Show with Dr. David C. Innes on “Christ & the Kingdoms of Men: Foundations of Political Life” (Part 2)

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Wake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening to the live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 10th day of August 2020 and we have as a returning guest today my friend

Dr. David C. Innes who is returning for part two of a discussion we began on May 6th.

That is part two of our discussion on his book Christ and the Kingdoms of Men Foundations of Political Life and David is professor of politics and chair of the program in politics, philosophy, and economics at the

King's College in New York City and he for many years was a member of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, New York where I first met him and where he, when

I also lived in Long Island, he used to attend many of the debates, the public theological debates that I orchestrated primarily with Dr.

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and I believe now he is a member of the Bohemia or the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Bohemia, Long Island. Oh, wait a minute, no, he's a member of a different OPC church in Huntington, I believe.

Well, I'll have him clarify that and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

David C. Innes. Thank you, Chris, it's good to be back. And you are, in fact, a member of the

Trinity OPC congregation. Yeah, Trinity Church, yeah, we meet in Syosset, which is, you know, on Long Island.

For your listeners, it's Long Island. Trinity Church, yeah. Yeah, and he used to be in Huntington or Huntington Station.

Yeah, yeah, well, we're renters because it's very expensive on Long Island, so we have to move around.

But I'm a minister in the OPC as well. Amen. And so tell us about the

King's College in New York City. The King's College in New York City is a Christian college with a core of politics, philosophy, and economics.

People study media, they study business, they study journalism and politics, philosophy, and economics, and we're a seriously, intentionally

Christian college with an aggressively Christian mission. So there are about 500 students who are right down by the stock exchange and it's a bold adventure.

Well, I want to give our listeners the website for the King's College. If anybody wants to look up more information on the

King's College, perhaps either you or your children may want to investigate becoming a part of the student body there.

And the website is tkc .edu, tkc .edu.

And also, if you have any other information you'd like to find out about our guest,

Dr. David C. Ennis, he has his own website, dcennis .com, dcennis .com.

As I already mentioned, we are discussing Christ and the Kingdoms of Men, Foundations of Political Life, part two of our discussion that we began in May.

And a lot has happened since May in the media. Obviously, everybody is sitting fixed, either that or hiding somewhere and trying not to watch what they are hearing about on the media or in the media because it's so, to many, terrifying.

But tell us again why you wrote this book to begin with. Well, I wrote this book because there seems to be a dearth of understanding about the foundations of politics.

People know there are three branches of government in this country and so forth, but the country is deeply divided.

And the country is deeply divided because we have so little agreement, if any, on fundamental truths, even what a human being is and how we should treat them.

So the church should lead in that regard of being united and understanding what human purpose is, what government purpose is, how it is a blessing.

And so I wrote Christ and the Kingdoms of Men, Foundations of Political Life. And there are other books on politics out there by Christians, but nothing as systematic as this that goes through the basics of what is authority, what is politics, why do we have government at all, and what are the fundamental problems with government, why can't we agree on things, and what some of the solutions might be.

So it seemed to fill a hole that I perceived. Well, I want our listeners to have our email address in the event that they have questions of their own.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And so David, one of the things that you just said about your catalyst, your purpose in writing the book is that there is so much disagreement and confusion, but that does not exempt the

Church. Even does not exempt those that believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, and are biblically literate, and are even leaders in the

Church, not only perhaps undershepherds in their own congregation, pastors, elders, Bible teachers, but even leaders in their denomination, or leaders in the parachurch world, well -known authors.

I have had folks on this program, sometimes in the same week, sometimes back -to -back on different days, who have taken 180 -degree different positions, it seems, on the same issue of how we as a

Church should most appropriately and biblically respond to what is occurring around us, and perhaps even more specifically, how the government is wielding its authority and how we are to respond.

And that, and even, I'm going to make it even more of a narrow group that disagrees, theologically Reformed, not only

Reformed Baptists versus Paedo -Baptists, but even Paedo -Baptists disagree, and even

Orthodox Presbyterians. So it seems that this is really, it's clear that the

Church is divided on this, and shouldn't we make sure that no matter what our positions are, even if we zealously and aggressively and enthusiastically defend and proclaim our positions, and even give them great weight, don't we have to be very careful about the condemnation that we may be tempted to hurl or have already hurled against our brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree?

Yeah. Moral questions and political questions are moral questions.

Stir our moral passions, and we go crazy. And we get polemical.

So it's no surprise that people are very divided on these questions, even amongst

Reformed, even Reformed Presbyterian, even Orthodox Reformed Presbyterian people.

So, even with the scriptures available to inform us.

But so all the more reason, because this subject of moral questions, questions of justice, questions of how to sustain a good life together, because these divide us so passionately, there needs to be a place where, a means by which we can think dispassionately about these things, soberly about these things.

And my book, Christ and the Kingdoms of Men, is not a polemical book. It's a sober, thoughtful book.

This is an accessibly academic book. So it's theologically informed, it's philosophically informed, it's historically informed.

And this is a book to sit down and converse with. Not a book that you're going to pick up and go, yeah, those are my opinions.

Finally someone said it. And if you want that, go to Twitter. Twitter is where people,

I can't imagine you're on Twitter, and stay off of it. I'm on Twitter once a day for one sole purpose, to promote my radio show, and I never look at it otherwise.

There you go. But that's where people shout at each other, and communicate in slogans, and the echo chamber happens.

And I suppose Facebook is the same way as some other social media. But in the college classroom, amongst sober

Christian friends, at Bible studies, from the pulpit, and in books like this, this is where we say, what is the truth?

How then shall we live? What does God say? How am I wrong?

And how can I be right? How can I love my neighbor by helping my neighbor to see what is right for God's glory and for my neighbor's flourishing?

So that's what I hope to accomplish by this book. And by the way, I did not intend to convey the idea in my statements that I believe there are not moral absolutes.

There are certain political issues where I don't believe a Christian has wiggle room.

I think that the murder of unborn children is something that every Christian must vehemently oppose.

And there are other things that would go hand in hand with that. Every Christian must be opposed to the sin of homosexuality.

Now, that second one, there is a bit of a difference. Even though we must all, as Christians, declare that homosexuality is an unnatural and damning sin, if one is unrepentant when participating in that wicked behavior, there may be differences of opinion on how those in political power respond to people behaving that way.

There is where the difference of Christian views on politics may come into play and do come into play with that area.

But there are things, and I'm assuming you would agree, that there are black and white things.

There is no reason why a Christian should be considering himself and considered by others in good standing with God or in a right relationship with God if indeed they believe, and in fact, even some professing

Christians enthusiastically and zealously and aggressively believe in a woman's so -called right to murder her unborn children and even children who are born, quote -unquote, accidentally alive during an abortion attempt.

And one such notable individual who has become globally praised on a daily basis for weeks very recently is a politician in Congress who passed away very recently, who believed in partial birth, abortion, and even who believed in, or should

I say opposed, the Infant Born Alive Act, believed that a woman should be able to allow her child to die in a shoebox or somewhere else in an abortuary where she intended to kill the child, but the baby was born alive.

And this person has been globally identified as a Christian. But would you agree with me that there are certain areas where we have no right to claim a neutrality or gray area or even zealously promote those things like abortion?

Yeah, there are some things over which people can reasonably disagree. There are some very serious matters on which, well, we should be united, but sadly we're not.

And there are some things that are support for which are evidence of a depraved mind.

And like if somebody were to say today, oh, I believe in racial slavery, you just leave the room.

You're not morally capable of carrying on a conversation. I don't know if anyone believes that today, but that would be a fringe view.

Whereas a support for abortion is a sign of a depraved mind and a very unwell heart, but it's so popular today that nonetheless you have to give an argument against it.

And of course there are arguments you can give against it, but it's not something on which Christians can reasonably disagree.

And so you have, for example, Joe Biden is the virtual democratic nominee for president.

And there's been some question about whether he is a Christian in good standing and Catholic bishops saying, well, no, you can't be a

Catholic in good standing and have the active support for abortion that you've had over the years.

So there's a very practical demonstration of the limits of debate in the

Roman Catholic circle. But nonetheless, the principles

I provide in the book, the purpose of government is to protect life and to protect the conditions for material, spiritual, and moral flourishing.

If the government is not protecting unborn life, preborn life, then it's not doing its basic job.

So the book gives basic guidance on things like that.

And if you're not a science denier, if you're all about science, well, science supports that the baby in the womb is a human being, separate

DNA, separate blood type, and so forth and so on. So there are strong arguments you can bring to bear, but of course prayerfully, because, oh my.

Yeah, it is fascinating, ironic, and ridiculous, actually, that many on the left are accusing those of us on the right as being science deniers, and yet they will deny personhood to even fully formed infant children, who are denied the rights to live if a woman for any reason wants that baby murdered, and who deny the genetics of science, who deny men are men and women are women, just because of how they feel or how they may think at this moment about an issue.

Well, Chris, this is what I'm talking about, about the fragmentation in the country.

The country, America, is in a crisis. And when

I say a crisis, it's an immortal crisis, because there is such profoundly fundamental fragmentation among us.

We can't, as I said, we can't even agree on what a human being is. Half the country wants to be able to kill babies.

There's this reigning orthodoxy that I should be able to choose whatever I want to be.

And some of the issues you just mentioned, the transgenderism, the gender fluidity, and so forth.

And this has become public orthodoxy, and it did overnight. And it's insane.

And Bruce Jenner, as you recall, decided that he is a woman, and that he's always been a woman.

And then, like that, the historical records switched to, what's his name,

Caitlyn Jenner now? Caitlyn Jenner won the men's decathlon in, what was it, 1972?

Wow, a woman won the men's decathlon back in the 70s. What an extraordinary thing. Like, history was rewritten.

This is just madness. But that's where we are. And if you don't affirm and recognize the madness, you yourself are considered mad, depraved, unfit for civilized society.

That's where we are, and that's why the Church needs to step forward as sanity, as health, as God's created order, as an example of community as community ought to be.

And, yeah, that's the challenge of the Church. So I hope my book helps the Church in identifying the problems and identifying how to respond to those problems.

Yes, and that last issue that you just raised, the

T in LGBTQ, a transgenderism so -called, that is even the subject of heated debate,

I think, far more heated than we even see in the media. Between those in that series of letters,

L -G -B -T -Q, there are very sharp lines of division between, perhaps even especially, lesbians and the transgendered.

But even some homosexuals in general, obviously, there are homosexuals or those who practice that behavior who disagree on politics for all reasons.

There are those that are fiscally conservative, and even in some areas, other than the area of homosexuality, morally conservative.

There are even pro -life homosexuals. But the issue of whether a man who thinks he's a woman should be able to compete in female sports, that's something that is divided sharply, those on the left who are either heterosexual feminists or lesbians.

Yes, it works its way out into absurdity, like the woman in Germany who felt she loved a...

No, it was a British woman, but she loved a German chandelier, and she wanted to marry it. Well, why not?

But the issue here is not the immediate question. The issue here is, in what we just described, is there a moral order to the universe?

Is there a creational order? It all comes back to the doctrine of creation. And if there is not, then all these moral claims about rights and so forth is utterly meaningless.

It's just what you can grab and what you can take and what you can enforce on other people, if there's no moral order to the universe.

But they do believe these are moral issues, but they have no foundation for it. There's no basis for making these claims.

And the other issue is, these people, typically I think these people have suffered terrible trauma in their lives, or they're suffering from some sort of disorder, and they need love from other people, they need help.

And you are prevented by law from loving them in the way they need to be loved, in the way they need to be benefited and helped.

And that's a very serious matter. There's all kinds of people now you can't love. Jesus said, love your neighbor.

Love your neighbor as yourself. And we're forbidden by law from helping some of the most suffering people in the country, because of this radical confusion that reigns over us, that has the force of law.

So this is the problem. This is why I start the book with the doctrine of creation.

Creation, fall, and redemption. What was the purpose of creation? What is the purpose of human beings?

The creation mandate we were given at the beginning. And so what is the purpose of government relative to that?

Government is to support us in fulfilling the creation mandate, to have dominion over the earth, to spread the knowledge of God over the face of the earth as the waters cover the sea, and to develop

God's creation in love and community. That's what the purpose of government is.

You lose sight of that, you lose sight of a lot. Now, what do you specifically mean by foundations in the subtitle?

Foundations. Foundations are the fundamental, creational principles of the universe.

So we were made in the image of God, we were made for love, we were made for dominion in God's name, to rule and righteousness.

These are foundations. And the purpose of government is, as I said, to support us as individuals, as families, as the

Church, in doing these things. The thing about foundations is that they often go unnoticed, because they're the presuppositions.

It's just what everyone accepts, or is blind to accepting.

But they're always exposed, they're always in view. So for example, our society generally accepts as gospel truth evolution.

It's just not questioned. People don't see it. We just accept as gospel truth that we're all fundamentally individuals, and that families, societies, are composed out of individuals.

They're just things we make. And that the most important thing is my free will, my autonomy over myself.

And that if I'm a man and I want to be a woman,

I can be a woman, because I'm autonomous, and so forth and so on. So the book qualifies the starting points, the fundamental, creational purposes of God, the moral structure of the universe that he made, the spiritual end for human beings.

And within that, and only within that, can you understand yourself, politics, everything properly.

You get the foundations wrong, the starting points, the fundamental presuppositions, and then you get everything wrong.

And I think that's a big part of why people disagree, is because they should start at the starting points.

Instead, they're bickering over policies. So there has to be foundations of political life.

If you're going to write a book on politics, just as you write a book on science, you start with atoms, right?

Several chapters are in your book on the purpose of government. Why so much on that?

The purpose of government, well, everything has a purpose. If things don't have purpose, then there is no creator.

If there is a creator, then everything has a purpose. And if something has a purpose, there's a good in it.

There's a way in which it's good for us. And if you mistake the purpose, you're going to use something badly, and it'll hurt you.

If you use a tool for something other than the purposes for which it's intended, you will end up hurting people or breaking things.

If you use a screwdriver for what it's not intended for, or something like this, you're going to hurt people or break things.

And government is not a screwdriver. It's the awesome, coercive power of government.

And if you misuse that, you get tyranny, you get oppression, you get suffering on a vast scale, whether it's the ill -conceived welfare policies of Johnson's Great Society or Stalin's blessing over half the

Earth, right? So you've got to use this right. And God tells us what the purposes are.

If you think the purpose of government is just to do everything that is conceivably good, then you'll have government tucking us in at night, tying our shoes for us, blowing our noses, providing a living for us, etc.,

etc. You have vastly totalitarian government that would just crush our humanity into powder.

So you have to understand the purpose of government in order for government to be for our good, as God intended.

God gave government for our good, Romans 13 .4. Well, to know how it's good for us, you have to know what

God's intentions were for it, what its creational purpose is. And typically when

I pick up a Christian book on politics, there's not much talk at all about that. But I'm a political theorist as well as a theologian.

As far as I'm a pastor, I'm a theologian. So I ask this fundamental question.

Well, we have to go to our first station break. And if anybody wants to join us for the question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's chrisarnson, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours of the program is

Dr. David C. Innes, Professor of Politics and Chair of the Program in Politics, Philosophy, and Economics at the

King's College in New York City. We are addressing Part 2 of a discussion we began in May on his book,

Christ and the Kingdoms of Men, Foundations of Political Life. If you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. If you have a question of your own, please always give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And we have

Laszlo in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who asks, how does identity politics square with a biblical worldview?

Is it a sinful presupposition? And obviously, I think a good place to start with answering that question is defining identity politics.

David? Yeah, as I understand it, identity politics...

As a Christian, your identity is in Christ, right? I'm a Christian. That's the most fundamental thing about me.

I'm also American. I'm a Scottish -Canadian American. I'm a father.

I'm a husband. I'm various things, which are all very important. And some of them are very dear to me.

But fundamentally, I'm a Christian. Identity politics identifies a particular ethnicity or oppressed person class as your fundamental orienting identity.

And even identifies a gospel related to that. If I were only empowered relative to this identity, then everything would be well with me.

It's a false gospel. It makes it an ideology. But of course, if somebody is of an oppressed minority of some sort, then that should be addressed.

Oppression is by definition not good. But identity politics identifies liberation from that oppression, that marginalization, as a gospel, as a sufficient good.

And you can see right away the tension with the gospel of Christ. We are different ethnicities.

We are of different ablement. This person is a paraplegic.

This person is Asian. This person is of some other identifiable group.

Fine. And some of those things are undesirable, like not having the use of your legs.

It's obviously an undesirable thing. Other things are perfectly good aspects of God's creation.

But to identify yourself fundamentally is that, and particularly as an oppressed person in relation to that, and your sufficient good freed from that oppression, empowered relative to other people, then that is deceiving.

It's a false promise. And it also sets people against each other, sets them at suspicion toward one another.

And it tends to be ungracious. It's extremely ungracious.

It identifies people as hostile to this and seeks to punish them and so forth, ruin them.

So it's intimately connected with cancel culture. And people have different levels of importance.

They have been assigned by the left, as if these folks are

God -breathed, inerrant writers of some kind of scripture.

And, of course, the God who is breathing this is not the God of the Bible that we know and love and believe in.

But I'm not saying that they actually attribute it to a god or a goddess, but they act as if these things are inerrant.

They will react to you severely and punish you in any way that they have the power and authority and ability to punish you if you disagree with them on these things.

The other side of the ungraciousness is the arrogance, no hint of self -questioning, no sense at all that maybe there's one or two things

I haven't thought through that could have terrible consequences if we put my agenda completely into practice.

None of that whatsoever. And the other side of that is it is completely ungracious. Now, I forget the phrase they use, even though it's been repeated on this show many times, but there is a certain, as I was saying, a hierarchy of importance of rights where, for an example, a lesbian transgendered black person would have rights that seem to trump even a male homosexual white person's because of that person being not only female, which has been viewed as an oppressed minority group, and being black, which has been considered an oppressed minority group that would trump the white color of the other person, and the transgenderism, which trumps even just your run -of -the -mill activities involving homosexuality.

Am I right on this, and I can't remember the phrase that they use? I don't think I keep that closely up with it, but it does, it does, it seems to me, run into all kinds of absurdities.

I mean, you mentioned earlier the trans athlete who then, with a male biology, male musculature, male everything, cleans up in the awards for the women's track.

It's absurd. Whereas if we take God's view that everyone is made in the image of God for having equal human value, various human callings, but equal human value, equally made to love and to be loved, ultimately loved by God, but also loved by one another, and that is not always an easy thing to figure out exactly how to do that, but nonetheless, to love one another, this is good news, and it would clear up an awful lot of this stuff.

And the Christians have not always been very loving, and even institutionally, you just think of not long ago, the racial segregation.

Now our minds boggle, that happened in this country? Racial segregation, real cruelty.

That wasn't loving, and that was based on a misunderstanding of fundamental creational principles.

And so we've had things wrong too, but we should be in a position to get things right as we study this.

And Chris, you know, having studied heresies, and I'm sure you've interviewed people on various heresies, heresies are always an opportunity for the

Church to refine its doctrine, its moral doctrine, its doctrine of Christ, its doctrine of the

Church, and we're facing horrible anti -gospels today, which are confronting us with the need to refine our thinking on all sorts of matters, political matters, sexual matters, and matters of justice and love, and we should seize upon those opportunities.

And that's what I hope to be, I hope to contribute to that conversation with Christ and the kingdoms of men.

I just remembered the phrase I was looking for, intersectionality. Yeah, yeah.

But anyway, just a bunch of nonsense, and it's unbelievable that any mature adult with three brain cells would believe in this stuff.

And yet it's the orthodoxy, it's the public orthodoxy. Corporations hold to it, institutions of higher education and lower education hold to it, the media, entertainment, everyone holds to this.

It's orthodoxy, and if you question it, you're in deep trouble.

I just want to point out, Chris, that in every age there is an established religion.

There is always an established orthodoxy. For most of Western history, well, since the rise of the

Church, that has been a Christian understanding, and until very recently.

And now, it's not as if, well, we've put off Christianity, now we have freedom of thought. No, as you've pointed out, and as I've pointed out, there is a reigning orthodoxy, and if you question it, if you violate it, if you speak eloquently with regard to it, you can be ruined, lose your job, lose social status, everything.

And that involves what Bill Buckley in the 1980s started calling political correctness.

Wokeness, now it goes by progressive ideas of various kinds, which always seem to be progressing.

And this is why I cancel culture. This is why, if an errant tweet and the

Twitter mob descends. So there's always this reigning orthodoxy. It occurred to me yesterday. In fact,

David, could you remember what occurred to you yesterday when we come back from the break?

We have to get our midway break right now. Sure, sure. Please don't forget what you remembered yesterday. As I said, we have to get our midway break.

It's longer than normal. Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break because they have to abide by FCC regulations to localize

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Christ and the Kingdoms of Men, Foundations of Political Life. This is part two of our discussion on that book.

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David C. Innes and our discussion on his book, part two of our discussion, on his book that we are addressing today, that is

Christ and the Kingdoms of Men, Foundations of Political Life. This is part two of a conversation we began in May on this program.

chrisarnson at gmail .com is our email address, chrisarnson at gmail .com. David, I don't think that you ever answered the part of Laszlo's question where he said, is this identity politics worldview sinful?

Is it sinful? Well, any false gospel is sinful. So if, can you hear me,

Chris? I hear you loud and clear. Okay. Any false gospel or adherence to a false gospel is sinful.

So if you're just feeling oppressed because you are paraplegic and people judge you for that or exclude you from society in ways they shouldn't, they look down on you, you're denied a job which you couldn't do perfectly well, then you've been done wrong and you should address that.

People should address it on your behalf. But if you view that as your identity and your hope, your hope in life is to have this addressed, then that becomes a false hope, which is a false gospel, which is of course sinful.

So on that level, if I'm defining it correctly, then sure.

But I would address that by pointing people to the true hope and the true gospel and a true understanding of their need, while sympathizing, of course, with any oppression, any injustice they're suffering, and helping them in love to address those.

So I would put both of those things together pastorally. Well, thank you, Laszlo. And guess what?

Due to the generosity of our dear friends at PNR Publishing, Craig, I'm sorry,

Bryce Craig and the wonderful folks at PNR Publishing.

Sorry for butchering your name initially, Bryce. I've known Bryce for decades, so I'm sorry for doing that.

But Bryce has been very generous to supply us once again with copies of this book for listeners who have questions.

And Laszlo, you live in Carlisle, so there's no need for them to mail you a copy at cvbbs .com,

located right here in Carlisle. It's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who sells all of PNR Publishing's titles.

They will have that book, God willing, by Friday, because Bryce just had those copies shipped out today.

So they do not have those copies yet. But if you give cvbbs .com

a call on Friday, I am quite certain by then, since PNR Publishing has such a quick turnaround with getting books here, they usually get here, believe it or not, the next day from when they ship them here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

But if you want to call cvbbs first, their number is 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231, and they are open 10 a .m.

Eastern to 4 .30 p .m. Eastern time. Thank you, Laszlo, for the excellent question.

We have someone else who has a question for you, and this is a person,

I'll give his full name, because he was actually a guest on this program addressing a similar subject, although not connected to any book he has written, and somebody who is a friend of yours, a mutual friend of both of ours, who we know from the good old days at the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square in New York, where Bill Shishko at one time was the pastor.

Dick Guido, who is a member of both the New York and Alabama Bar Association and the

Bar of the Supreme Court. Dick has a question for you, and I'm looking for that right now, and while I look for that, folks, you can send an email of your own at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Dick says, Dr. Ennis, do you believe it is biblically permissible for a

Christian to vote for a candidate whom he believes to be morally unfit for office, but with whose politics he agrees?

Oh, that's the question. That's a sit -up question. That's a Donald Trump question.

Well, you know, that could actually be the vast majority of people who Christians vote for, because very rarely, especially when it comes to presidents, this may be very different depending upon where you live, when it comes to mayors, when it comes to governors, when it comes to those in Congress and the

Senate, and those who are, you know, different local political figures.

But I think most of the time when we vote for a president, we are not voting for a genuinely regenerate person.

I mean, of course, there are exceptions. There are many who believe George W. Bush was and is a brother in Christ, but I think that's something that we have to do on a regular basis, it seems, when we go to that voting booth.

Well, Dick, I'm sorry, not Dick. David, do you have an answer to it? Sure. In all seriousness,

Donald Trump does not exhaust all unrighteousness in politics, but in all seriousness, this is a hotly debated subject, and people can reasonably disagree on this,

I think. However, I believe that, as the Scriptures teach us,

God provides government for our good. He raises up and he brings down.

And in most places in the world, first of all, we're in the rare situation of being able to choose our government.

In most places in the world, you get the government that is born into power, that seizes power by force of arms, and so forth and so on, and God raises up those governments by various means for people's good.

A pretty basic good. And the governments typically are wicked people, and they are typically violating most of what

God says is righteous in government. But nonetheless, there is good there. But we have the privilege of choosing our government.

And we don't get to choose them. It's not a universal righting campaign. They work their way up through the parties.

They present themselves to us for our consideration and our voting.

And God is raising them up. So in 2016, God gave us the choice between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton for president.

And in 2020, we will have, as things stand, the choice between Donald Trump and Joe Biden for president.

And we've got to make a choice. And there are some who, like David French, would say, no, you've got to set a moral minimum, a moral spiritual minimum.

And if we keep settling for what they present to us, the parties, then that's what we'll get in the future and we'll be taken for granted.

We can exercise our influence as Christians most helpfully if we say, these are unacceptable choices, come back when you have an acceptable one.

I take the attitude that government is there to protect us in our lives and property and our moral and spiritual environment and so forth.

And you make the best of what you're given. So sometimes it involves voting for, they say, the lesser of two evils.

But this is what the Lord is providing, this choice for my good.

And I know it's either this person, he's either raising up this person for my good or that person for my good.

And as a citizen, I am given the choice of saying, I think God is raising up this person and not that person.

I'm going to choose one or the other. And I'm going to maximize the good. This person is going to, in my judgment, do a better job of preserving what is good and resisting what is evil.

Though no doubt there will be evil mixed in with this person's efforts or this person's party's efforts.

Nonetheless, this is the one I think God has raised up. Because God is raising up one or the other. I get to put my hand, use my hand as, in a small way,

God's means for raising up one or the other. And it's going to be one or the other. So in that regard,

I think a Christian is, can in good conscience vote for, how did the question put it, somebody who is morally unfit for office.

That's what is morally unfit for office. I'm not relativizing that question at all.

I'm just saying it's a question. So I think you can, like somebody, like Donald Trump, three times married, foul -mouthed, the

Billy Bush interview. The extreme narcissism.

Narcissism, yes. And how about politically unfit for office. He didn't seem to know how the

Constitution works. He didn't seem to be, you'd think as President of the United States you wouldn't be maybe a constitutional scholar, but you should know how it works.

And he didn't seem to. So he had his problems, but on the other hand, many people thought

Hillary Clinton had even worse problems, more serious problems. So it was a choice.

Even over the issue of constitutionality of things, the left is always violating that.

Pardon me? It's said even though Hillary may have been worse morally than Donald Trump, she even, in her views, violates the

Constitution on a regular basis as do most of the left. Oh, yeah, well, this, yeah, that's a problem too.

But, yeah, morally fit for office, okay. One candidate says he will oppose abortion.

The other candidate has never seen an abortion she didn't like. When you think of, this is not a campaign speech, and I'm taking the question seriously, it's a very serious question, but when you consider what in our day would bring

God's wrath upon us, God's judgment, 60 million plus abortions, the constitutional right to kill your baby, that's something that would bring

God's judgment. So maybe that's relevant to which candidate for the highest office you would vote for.

Or the way we call good evil and evil good today, the way we are given over to unnatural desire.

That has a prominent place in Romans chapter 1. One candidate fully supports giving ourselves over to a completely unbiblical view of sexuality.

And the other one, oh, I think Trump was fine with it, but he wasn't going to push it.

So, well, that's something that arguably brings God's judgment on our country.

Maybe that should be relevant. It's fair that maybe neither candidate is in a sense morally qualified for office, but maybe that qualifies a candidate for office.

You stand on these major moral crises of our day.

Think of the 1860s. What was a major moral crisis of our day in the 1860s?

You get three guesses and only one counts, right? Slavery, okay?

So with slavery being the overarching moral issue of the day, it doesn't really matter whether or not this candidate has cheated on his wife recently.

Now, of course, we don't want candidates who cheat on their wives, but when you've got this overwhelming moral issue resting upon the country, then that surely is the first place you go for moral qualifications for office.

Abraham Lincoln opposed slavery. The other one was for it.

Does the conversation stop there when you're considering the highest office in the land and who's going to nominate justices for the

Supreme Court? So, you know, as I said, it's a question on which reasonable people in Christ can differ, but I would offer the weight of that argument on one side.

Well, thank you, Dick. If you did not win a copy of David's book from Part 1 of our discussion in May, you are free to have one today.

Send us your full mailing address in Raleigh, North Carolina, and our friends at CVBBS .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, will ship that out to you. Let's see here.

We have another individual who has written in a question, and I typically, as I said before, don't give the full names of people who write in questions, just their first name, city and state of residence, and country of residence, but I'll make another exception with this person because he happens to be pastor of a church that I think is worthy of promotion on this program.

His name is Pastor Gary Wagner, and Pastor Gary Wagner is the pastor of the

Reformation Heritage Church, and I'm trying to find.

I had it right in front of me, Reformation Heritage Church, and it is in California.

I know I just can't remember the exact city right now, but I'll find that in a moment.

Let's see here. Pastor Gary says,

Greetings, Chris and David. We know that redemption is the answer to all of our problems, along with much prayer, but what else can we do as Christians to overcome the tyranny of COVID regulations, the false media, and the anarchy in the streets?

Those are different things. Chris, David knows me through my daughter, who is a member of his church.

Her name is Tara... I don't know how to pronounce it. Taryn. Taryn.

Taryn. Yeah. Taryn Clark. Well, I did not even know that part of it before I was just about to promote

Pastor Gary's church, but if you could. Well, that is a big question.

Just because it has different parts. He mentioned the COVID crisis, and Governed, obviously, has had a response to that, and it has impinged on us in various ways, not just personally and economically, but also as churches.

And also mentioned the disorder in the streets. Of course, these are the disorder in the streets, the rioting and so forth.

I don't know how he's doing in California. Things are pretty quiet on Long Island, but we see horrors on the television just this weekend in Chicago.

Government's basic responsibility is to secure people and their lives and the conditions for material flourishing, moral and spiritual flourishing, right?

So property, in short. And what are they doing? They're not preserving people and their property.

They are not preserving people and their lives. These people riding in the streets, and I'm not talking about peaceful protesters.

These are rioters. They're breaking things. They're smashing things. They're assaulting people.

They're looting. We've seen it. We've seen it all. And a lot of governors and mayors are saying, stand down, don't oppose them.

Well, you can oppose them, but don't use this, that, and the other means. So they're tying the police's hands behind the back, and then they're going and they're defunding police, as they've done in some of our major cities.

So it's a horrible failure of the basics of government. And so, and then the

COVID, the government's had a response to the COVID. I'm just going to fill in some background information here.

The government response to the COVID, I think, has treated that threat to life as the only concern, the paramount concern, as opposed to other threats to life, suicide, drug abuse, drug addiction, dying of other ailments, because everything is focused on COVID and not on, you know, heart disease and so forth.

And so we've heard stories about that. So it's been a failure of political judgment, a failure of statesmanship.

We've got a chapter on statesmanship in Christ and the kingdom of men. But Pastor Gary's question was, we as Christians, aside from evangelism, the

Lord's redemption, prayer, and so forth, what can we do in response to these problems, the problem of disorder, the problem of COVID, the

COVID, the COVID, the government response to COVID. Let's start with the COVID.

I think what we can do is on the one hand, show your neighbor that you care for your neighbor.

Like it's questionable, it's debatable. Let me put it that way. Meaning it's a subject of legitimate debate.

How well masks work, what measures actually mitigate the spread of this virus and so forth.

But in some cases, it's just basic politeness, which is a form of loving your neighbor, showing your neighbor

I care by putting on a mask before you go into the drug store, before you go into the grocery store, the

Home Depot. So that's a way we can stop it.

And churches, I see churches gathering. I was in supply preaching in one church.

Everyone was masked and distanced, but they're kind of cool about the whole thing. I was in another church where I was preaching and nobody was masked and nobody was distanced.

I thought this was remarkable that there would be this difference in the same denomination, in the same metro area.

But personally, I would mask up for worship and maintain a suitable distance, depending on the relationship and people's comfort level.

I think that's just a way of loving your neighbor. I'm not happy about doing that forever.

I think at some point it becomes a, it becomes the cost is, it becomes too high.

You prevent some disease spread and consequent death. You live in a society where people are constantly masked toward each other.

You don't see people smiling at each other. It breaks down healthy relationships.

It instills a sense of fear in society toward one another. And that is a tremendous loss.

And I think at that point, the response to the disease is, creates more trouble than it remedies.

And if some people die and I'm one of them, I'm fine with that, right? I give my life for my country because, yeah.

Anyway, so you can, you can ask me about that further if you're interested. So that's something we can do for, for the

COVID. As for, as for old government overreach, well, we have votes. We can campaign. We can talk to our neighbors in a civil and constructive way.

We can, you know, there, there, these governments are accountable. And November and two years from November are going to be very interesting.

What was the other thing that they, the rides on the streets? Yes. Same thing, right to your gut, petition your government, tell them you are, you are very concerned.

You are afraid the, it's just a disgrace.

What's happening. I don't think the governments are hearing from enough people.

Let's put it that way. Unless there's anything more, Chris, if you could, maybe if you could refine the question, it's a very broad question.

Well, I don't think that we really have time to, if, if pastor Gary wants to send in another question or clarification question, but I think that you've been informative as to your own views on how to respond to these dilemmas that we find ourselves in.

And I did find all of the information about the church where pastor Gary serves as the under shepherd does the pastor.

It's Reformed Heritage Church in Los Gatos, California.

And the website is reformedheritage .org, reformedheritage .org.

I believe I incorrectly said Reformation Heritage Church earlier. It's Reformed Heritage Church.

And that is a member of the Reformed Presbyterian Church, Hanover Presbytery, also known as the

Covenanters. And we always enjoy hearing from pastor Gary with excellent questions.

You know, Chris, I say that it surprises me that in light of these riots and looting and Tifa out there behaving as disgracefully as they are, and so forth, you don't see 10 ,000 people out regularly protesting, protesting the rioters, protesting the disorder, supporting the police.

We did see it here in New York. There was a whole bunch of people, a lot of them from the black church, most of them it seemed from the black and Hispanic churches in the

Bronx and Queens and Brooklyn, protesting in favor of the police and against the mayhem.

And so I'm surprised we haven't seen more of that. So that's something we can do as citizens.

Just get out there with your bodies and your numbers. But it takes organization.

It takes an organization to organize people and bring them out. And maybe there are more people who are coming out of their parents' basements to riot and loot than there are working people who have time for that kind of thing.

I don't know about out there. Yeah, well, we have to go to our final break right now. And if you have a question that you'd like to ask, send it in now or forever hold your peace, because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.

We'll be right back with more of David C. Innes after these messages from our sponsors. Was your business shut down during the

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. And we have just about eight minutes left or less for our discussion today.

If you have a question, send it in immediately to chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And, David, I would like you to have about five minutes right now to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we leave this program.

Okay. All of us are responsible for how we live our lives, what we promote, what we impede, what we build, and what we destroy.

Something should be destroyed. Something should not be built. Something should be built, and so forth.

And you have to understand God, his universe, his created order, the true hope of human beings, the gospel, our created purpose, in order to do that, to live your life well and to live it well for others.

And in Christ and the Kingdoms of Man, it's a book about the foundations of political life, but it starts from the foundations.

And I hope it helps people order these things in their minds so not only can they be good citizens, not only can they love their neighbor with their politics and the politics they promote, but they can be better people, better Christians, salt and light in the world in general.

And that requires thought. That requires maybe a thoughtful pulpit you're sitting under.

It requires thoughtful books and thought -provoking books that you're given. So I tried to write a book that was as broad as life itself and has application to particular political acts as well.

And Carl Truman wrote the foreword. I appreciated that. He summarized it nicely, saying that the book proceeds from a robust theology of creation, which is true, and without that, you don't get very far.

So I commend the book to people's reading so that they can lead a more thoughtful, more biblically -founded life for the glory of God and for the loving of their neighbor.

And let me just say, before we went to a few breaks ago, I talked about in every age there is a reigning orthodoxy.

It's not like, well, there used to be orthodoxy, and now we're all secular, and so there is no orthodoxy.

No, you can tell what the reigning orthodoxy is by what you are absolutely not allowed to contradict.

And I mentioned John Lennon. In 1966, John Lennon, in an interview, said the

Beatles are more popular than Jesus Christ. I don't know if you remember that.

Yes, I do remember that. He got in trouble for that, and he had to apologize, because the reigning cosmology, the reigning understanding of the order of things, was still recognizably

Christian. Whereas today, it pertains to offending political correctness, offending feminism, offending certain left -wing ideas concerning race and sexuality.

And if you violate those, you're in deep trouble. Corporations will drop your sponsorship.

Corporations will leave your state. The NFL won't play there anymore. You will be fired from your job.

You will be a social outcast. That tells you there is a reigning orthodoxy, a religion, and you have violated it.

You have legal freedom of speech, but socially, you are constrained.

And in Christ and the Kingdoms of Men, I try to identify what that is, and what the biblical view of things should be, what

God wants the reigning orthodoxy to be in our public life, in our social life, and how it is actually better.

It is more loving to your neighbor. It is more flourishing for everyone. It's healthier, and, of course, it is truer to His Word.

So I throw that in for your audience's thoughtful consideration.

Well, Pastor Gary from Reformed Heritage Church in Los Altos, California, has a clarifying question that we invited him to send in.

And I am enlarging the question because the font is microscopic, and I'm almost blind, it seems.

We have, thank you, Chris and David. That is what I wanted to hear for Christians to get out and counter -protest.

The COVID issue is, what can we do to overcome the oppressive regulations of our individual states before the election?

Do we just refrain, shut in, and watch our economy destruct until the elections?

Our church is meeting face -to -face against Governor Newsom's regulations because our people were crying out for fellowship.

We are following protocol, and we have been doing so for weeks without anyone getting ill.

Not only that, but we are commanded by God to congregate together. Okay, so there we have somebody who is a part of a group like John MacArthur and others, my friend

Dr. James R. White. They have been meeting in spite of what their governing authorities say because they don't believe the governors of their states have even a constitutional right to make those regulations.

You have others who believe that we should be within reason, and there's no exact time frame given, it seems, but there are those that said, no, we've got to obey the governors as long as they're not forcing us to sin, and a temporary shutdown is not sin.

But they will all inevitably say, but after a certain period of time, it would be sin to never again meet and forsake the assembling of the brethren forever.

So even those on that side of erring on the side of obedience to local secular authorities do believe there is a point to say enough is enough.

So I guess if you could answer Gary's question before we run out of time.

Yeah, let me address the MacArthur and COVID thing in particular. The government has a right to regulate natural things, spaces and so forth.

The government says you can have so many people in the building for so much space, maybe 190 people or whatever.

The government says there has to be certain fire doors, fire regulations, building codes, right? And if you violate those, you can't use your building.

And one could say that the COVID problem is an example of that.

On the other hand, if they're going to tell the Church of Christ you can't meet for worship, and it's open -ended, and they're saying you can't have more than 50 people, regardless of the size of your building, and that doesn't apply to anyone else, regardless if it applies to anyone else.

If it's completely unreasonable, and they're just preventing the Church from meeting for worship, then the Church, I think, should say we must obey

God rather than men. Now, the MacArthur statement doesn't address those respects in which the government can regulate the use of their building, right?

But it seems like in the California situation, as far as I can tell, the

Church is within its right to say we're going to meet for worship. Now, in the

MacArthur case, they've got 5 ,000 people in that building. Maybe their problem is they've got a megachurch.

Maybe churches aren't supposed to be megachurches, and that's part of the problem. My church, we meet in the pastor's backyard.

We had 102 in the pastor's backyard this weekend. Yeah, it was very humid, and we had a couple of other problems, but still, we were there for worship, even though we can't be in our building for one reason or another.

So maybe part of the problem is their church is ridiculously large.

Well, perhaps we could have you debate Phil Johnson on that sometime on my show. Phil's a dear friend, and I've had him on many times.

He is the executive director of Grace to You, and that's just another issue that divides true brethren in Christ.

I support MacArthur's saying we're going to worship. This is where we worship.

This is how we worship. And they did obey for four months.

I'll point that out. They agreed with the government for four months, and then at some point said, okay, now you're being ridiculous, and said we must worship

God. Now you're regulating the worship of Christ. You're not really regulating building space and health issues.

So I think that's worth saying in their defense. Well, David, we've run out of time, and I want to have you back.

I know that David has other books that are coming out in print soon. I'm sorry we didn't have time to address those and give a little plug for those, but we will have you back on to address those for full programs.

I want to make sure that everybody knows you can contact David at dcinnis .com, and that's D -C for David, middle initial

C, innis, I -N -N -E -S. That's I -N as in Nancy, N as in Nancy, E -S .com,

dcinnis .com. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater